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Completely agree. It's all about the freestyle stroke count. In the WR swim Lochte took 33 strokes and Phelps took only 32! Andrew took 37 when he swam his best time.
I dropped a solid 3-4 seconds in my 100 free by switching to a gallop stroke. There’s no question Michael Andrew can improve and break that world record.
You can tell he tightens up by the time he hits the free leg of the 2IM. I think he works harder than any swimmer those first 150m, so if he backed off a bit and worked on his endurance a bit and worked on that gallop stroke like you guys were talking about I think it would all come together for him on that event.
His endurance is his downfall. I swam against him at a meet once, and I had just finished a 400m free final, and then had like 20 minutes to recover before the 200m free final I swam against him in, and I beat him. That was his first race of the night.
If he had a proper world class freestyle instead of bum summer league swimmer his lack of "endurance" wouldn't matter. If he trained with the Florida distance group or sandpipers and had the same technique the result in the free would be the same. His 50 sucks. Not because of what shape he's in. It sucks cuz he doesn't know what the hell he's doing.
I think Michael Andrew gives swimming the mood we need and the against the grain training we need to see. He's brave AND talented to take a risk to do something different than the typical swimmer. He benefits the swimming community in so many ways. Keep going Michael! Let the "haters" hate and work that talent, prove them wrong with your actions and of course praise God. 😉
I want to see him train for and swim the 100/200 free and at least go 48 low/1:48. His best times being 49.4 and 1:56 is just not good enough. He can train USRPT and keep everything else the same but just use those events as development for the IM. Imo he needs to gallop for that but if he can prove that he can get to those times without I'd be surprised but I think it would be good enough.
You guys are smart. If MA and PA approached this as purely a fitness issue they’d never overcome a technical problem. You’re right to point out that his kick goes MIA at the end of some of his 100 races sometimes, like the 100 fly. That puts even more stress on the arms when they can handle it the least. One thing I’d add is that it’s not a matter of lifting the recovery arm higher out of the water on his non-breathing side. The high arm recovery is totally dependent on body rotation, which is also the source of power. I think if Michael focuses on rotation and relies on his core for power on the last 50, he will be able to sustain the speed he needs. They were working on straight arm recovery for the 50, so he knows how to rotate effectively. His raw power is astounding. He may very well be the most powerful guy in the pool, bar none. I would love to see MA crush the last 50 and the WR!
rather than train for a multitude of events I think the event clash is a blessing for the first time we’ll see a more targeted approach from MA it’s the 50m free & 100 breast in this campaign - will narrowing his focus make him better or worse?
Thats another great debate to be had. I think MA swims best on his methods when he trains for everything…. But it was to tweak methods to be a all out 50 Free guy maybe that would really increase his ceiling (adding power work etc)
If we’re looking at it from MA’s viewpoint, and using USRPT methodology, the issue would be both technique and training, because the two go hand in hand in USRPT. The technique is what is needed to go the pace, and it is constantly being challenged and refined through the stress of training. We’ve seen (and MA agreed) that training USRPT 200p helps his 100m events, and gives him the best ever 150m in the 2IM, but doesn’t translate to what he needs to do to finish that last 50. IMO, he just needs to adjust his training cycle and include some USRPT focus for the 400m/500y FR, where he can work on refining those elements of FR technique you guys discussed over longer distances and higher volumes, and that WR is his
You make a very good point. You have to train with the stroke technique that you race. Expanding the freestyle quiver by practicing maximizing distance per stroke, especially on recovery days, might do the trick.
You don't need to use that technique to swim at pace. Swimmers all over the world have been doing it forever. People swim at race speed with race tempo all the time. An elite level athlete can 50m push their last split of a 200IM on the rest he gets with usrpt like it's nothing. If he has to resort to his sprint stroke to do it that's because he doesn't know how to swim freestyle besides the sprint.
Yes. Kate Douglas. Dressel can do it even though he doesn't race it hardly ever and occasionally swims to the 200 free. But yes he has a 50 free stroke, a 100 stroke and a 200 stroke that isn't rubbish.
Great video. Training, technique and maybe tactical. 23.9 for 50 fly - nearly a full second faster than Lochte & Phelps. Great M Bohl quote “can’t be too fast but can be too hard”. 🤷
Brett I think you made good points to validate the technique issue. The same reason MA is not as good in the 100 free vs the 50 free is the same reason and it gets magnified in that last 50 free of the 200 free. He can't swim fast fatigued because if he breathes he is not fast.
Perhaps a few weeks off of easy, very low effort OW swims in the tropics would develop, what Gary Hall Sr describes as, the “hybrid” type of freestyle stroke.
Smart vid, I never thought of it that way. He's great at a 50 free, but the 50 free at the end of a 200im is a completely different context. Deserves a different technique.
that’s great but he won’t race the 200 i.m in paris next year as it directly clashes with the 50m freestyle. hence the time hanging on his wall & why his focus should be adopting a mcevoy mindset in his paris preparation
I think it's both. If he's focusing on the 50 free then obviously he wouldn't be fit enough at the back end of a WR pace 200 IM. But his stroke could make that a whole lot easier. Then he just needs to focus training on the 2IM
How about the age factor/ fatigued muscle twitch / failing to adjust-adapt to the new updated coaching techniques. As the saying goes. “ you can bang your head against the wall - bleeding or trying using the door to get inside”. Usually it seems you qualify well at your first Olympic and are wiser when attempting to qualify again at the second . Brutal and the young guns/those under the radar sneak up and do the damage. Swimmers have to have a Plan B when their careers are over with. ISL isn’t a long term/financially stable option.Not everyone was lucky enough to sign/receive sponsorship/ commercial contracts like Phelps and those days are gone.Large pool of swimmers/ limited amount of sponsorships.
I see Michael pretty often in Coronado. He is a great guy and works hard in his anaerobic way. He is extremely talented...arguably the most talented swimmer out there. It is not about technique, nor is it about training that will help Michael finish the 200 IM. He is simply not anatomically nor physiologically equipped well for the 200 m events. Virtually all of the greatest 200 IMers, past and present, including Phelps, Lochte, Marchand, Casas....are all middle distance swimmers. None of them are or were sprinters. Michael is a sprinter and built as a sprinter. He can train up to the 100 (if he chooses to)....but not the 200. Michael's muscle composition is more fast twitch than slow twitch fibers. He also has more girth and drag. Fast twitch fibers have no mitochondria...which means they can't use the oxygen, even if you gave it to them (BTW. he doesn't help this issue by breathing every other on the fly and 33 breaths per minute on his breaststroke legs). By the time he has put forth the effort of getting to the 150 faster than any other human being, his pH has dropped below the redline. Meaning, he becomes a rock. Muscles almost stop working when the pH goes that low. He has no choice. That is the way his fast twitch muscles work. That is also nature's way to help keep us alive. No amount of training nor technique will change that much. As for his 100's, more aerobic training and longer (than 50's) anaerobic sets would likely help that. A better comparison with Michael is with Adam Peaty in the shorter breaststroke events. Adam (also a fast twitch swimmer) was the fastest 50 breaststroker in the world at age 19 but it took him a few years before he could handle the second 50 to set the WR in the 100. His WR (56.9) set was 60 SR going down, 62 SR coming back. Michael is pretty close to Adam in the 50 breast (26.4 vs 25.9) and swims that race at a 64 SR. In the 100, Michael swims it at a 42 SR. Why? Because he hasn't trained the right way to hold 60 going down and coming back. That takes a different kind of training. Adam gave up the 200 long ago, even though he was pretty fast in it, because he knew he was not built for it. Michael should do the same for the 200 IM....or any other 200 for that matter. I am sure Usain Bolt could have run a pretty fast 400 m, but not like he ran the 100 and 200 m. Stick with the events you are best equipped to do. For Michael, that is 50's and 100's. He can try to trick his body into believing that the 200 IM is really just 4 x 50 sprints with very short rest, but his body wakes up at the 150 and says "NO!...This is really a 200...not four 50's". End of race. Gary Sr.
So his body is built (btw-how do you know?) for 150 but not 200? FT do have mitochondria but even if they did not, that would not mean that the supporting metabolic structure in other tissues could not make FT work... As always, you confidently state wrong things... yes, changing technique to be more efficient- less drag and more power (including a continuous pull, not lazy front arm), would make that last 50 faster (and that means shorter effort). I hope he had done all his months of training breathing left side only to get more symmetrical stroke. He will get that super-time sooner or later.
yeah train harder, but what is train harder ? i do not know at what stageof his preaparation for Paris he‘s currently into nor do I know if he was fully tapered for the 200IM. Invite him for a podcast and you will get the answers.
Except in a 200m fly, I don't think Phelps was physically capable of dying as badly as Andrew did in that IM. As Bowman said, Phelps was a 400 swimmer who came down to the 200 and 100. Andrew swam all distances as a kid, but as an adult, he's become a 50 swimmer who swims up to the 100s. So just in terms of distance, the 200IM is out at the extreme of what Andrew's body is primed for. And the slowness of his 100 free relative to his 50 free and his stroke 100s shows that his 100 free stroke needs work. You can also see that it needs work just by watching how short it is. The guy is like 6'6" but he swims freestyle with T-Rex arms. *Some* of that is him tightening up in a way that only a super sprinter like him can do. But some of it is surely baseline technique that he can improve.
I’d have to agree when you look back at the swim. It’s really more of a technical problem than an actual fitness one. He can still kick (even tho it’s not that strong) at the end. His hands really don’t catch the water as it should because of poor technique.
I think it’s technique. It’s not his fitness. He swims multiple events, potentially in the same session and races well. He has also trained for x amount of years. He isn’t unfit. I don’t think you can say needs to train specific to IM or say he isn’t working hard enough because we probably don’t know what he is and what he isn’t doing. The only thing we do know is that his current technique will not take him further… even if he was to be fitter. What we do know is that with a better technique he will go faster and sure… if he was to be fitter or train specifically for the event a bit more… it will add up. I’ll go with 90% technique and 10% improvement in fitness to race the IM. But I really want to say 100% technique.
I personally think its a bit of both.. How is his aerobic capacity with his USRT? You can't sprint a 200 i.m its impossible. And yes the technique could be changed to a more 200m freestyle stroke.. But surely its a bit of both?
@@albundy06 Yes.. but he goes 21.4 LC 50m freestyle.. he's not a summer league swimmer. He also has endurance for 100m races. he needs to work on his freestyle technique to suit the 200im no doubt!! But surely some more aerobic capacity would help too. The guy has unbelievable anaerobic capacity. Needs to improve his aerobic imo.
But how come he actually comes back 2% slower in the Olympic final versus Trials finals. Still technique? Or mental? It’s, in my mind, more mental than technical.
Very little if anythibg to do with his technique - all down to his underdeveloped aerobic capacity. He tains for 50-100 meter events which are anaerobic events and he does it using race pace only. While that may be all good for his anaerobic metabolism, buffering, lactate removal and developing FT fibers, etc - it surely isnt quite what he needs for aerobic events of 200 meter and more. Thats a totally different way of energy management. For one thing, your ST fibers will have to work harder for longer, and its the ST fibers which contain a higher number of mitachondria which are the power houses of aerobic metabolism. The you need to develop the kreb cycle, electron transfer chain, myoglobin supply, capillaries, blood shunting of the ST fibers. Your liver, heart and lungs need to operate in a different way to delay acidosis and to remove and recycle lactic acid. Those things are developed at much slower speeds and much higher volumes than he trains for. His technique comes secondary in this respect. All that said, he is a great guy and an athlete. He does what he thinks is best for him and he is happy with that. Wish him all the best ❤
All this talk here about aerobic endurance, how much aerobic endurance do you need for a sub 2min event well above VO2Max pace? I am on Sonny's side. I think is more technical then aerobical. But a good discussion to have, from us on the sideline. MA is doing a good job at swimming fast in 7 sprint events and puts together a very strong 2IM on top. That itself is special, how many swimmers are able to combine 2 or maybe even 3 different strokes on elite level and this guy does it on all 4. So chapeau to that and considering adding an 8th event, in the Mid Distance range and having all these discussions. Maybe he just swims it like this, but very good at it and be World elite at 7 other events
The main reasons for developing fatigue in racing events are shortage of glycogen in muscle fibers and change in the PH balance in the muscle fibers aka acidosis. While the amount of glycogen your body can store doesnt depend on whether you engage in mostly anaerobic vs mostly aerobic activity, what does matter is how your body is trained to utilize that glycogen most efficiently - explosively over short distances vs slower but more consistently over longer distances. So you do need to train specifically for that kind of adaptation - lower intesity and higher volume training must be brought into the mix - not only race pacing for 50 meter sprints. Regarding acidosis. When sprinting over short distances your body will rely mostly on buffering, aka lactate prevention, to delay acidosis - the effect of lactate removal will be minimal, especially over short distances of 25-50 meters. That is the opposite for swimming events of 200 meters and longer. In such events your body will rely more on lactate removal to delay acidosis. The efficiency of your body's lactate removal is linked directly to your aerobic metabolysm in both FT and ST fibers. Any effort above the average requires both aerobic and anaerobic metabolism, but to a different degree. Going at the maximum speed over a distance of 100 meters and longer does require strong aerobic capacity :)
@@deniskulik8994 Nice, almost a lecture in metabolic process here 😉 I do not disagree, nor fully agree. That makes it interesting and it also makes coaching and working in sports challenging. Yes he needs a bigger aerobic base for a 200m (arguably ~35% anaerobic vs ~65% aerobic, as is estimated for an 800m running event). But how big and how to train him, I see MA as a speed based athlete. So he likely hates doing LSD and sucks at it. So you would likely need to do a HIIT like session on a big interval at the right pace, USRPT like, to best build his aerobic base and combine this with the right technique (no breathing 25 or ... vs 50's or 75 on 200m pace). At least this would be my assumption from the sideline, based on ASR theories copied from running. And then it would be interesting to see his speed at VO2MAX or CSS and his VO2MAX uptake. Because how much is enough, to optimise a 200m coming from the speed end off the spectrum. But hey, we armchair hero's in this story can have a nice talk and discussion on this. Him, MA, and his Dad will decide what they do and how they do it and we enjoy the ride and his swimming.
Absolutely, I have nothing but huge respect for Michael and Peter and wish them every success. They have made a tremendous contribution to the sport, no question about it.
The thing you are so perplexed about answers this question of technique or training. "Why can't he swim a fast 100 free?!" Sonny is correct. If he can swim a fast 100 in every other stroke how can you say it's lack of training? There is obviously a flaw in his freestyle technique where it only works optimally while not breathing.
It doesn't work period. It only works in a 50m sprint. Which is why that stroke is only used in that event. Breath or no breath. Look at the underwater footage of his stroke the last 50. He would still suck with a snorkel on the last 50
A training session like 90x50s race pace is very difficult. But, how can you ignore the specificity principle? You get good at what you practice. Training 200s in training can be better for racing the 200, than doing 50s.
@@albundy06 200 race pace is, of course, not feasible if you train with 200s. My thinking is, I’d be curious to see what training response MA would get from training high duration repetitions.
The problem for MA is both - he doesn't have the fitness of the best 200IMers like Lochte, Phelps, Leon who are all elite 400IMers AND he doesn't have a good freestyle stroke for when you're tired and/or need to breath. We never see him swim a 100 or 200 free which would require breathing at some point, we only see him swim free in a 50 when he doesn't need to breath or at the 200IM when he's dead tired. Dressel (who's a way better 50 free swimmer) at least also swims and trains for the 200 free, he's not elite but that training helps his 100 free. MA just doesn't seem to be willing to push himself to practice events he doesn't like
How can you say that whenever MA's best 200 IM time is only 1 second slower than Lochte's world record? He's not as fit? That doesn't make any sense. Let's compare Lochte and MA's 50 free times or 100 breast times. Now Lochte isn't as fit. What sort of training does Carson Foster do? Jay Litherland? Tyler Clary? None of them are as fast as MA in the 2 IM, despite more aerobic training. Are they not as fit?
when I referred to fitness I obviously meant endurance/aerobic fitness. Clary/Foster/Litherland aren't as fast as MA but they've also shown better ability to maintain speed later in a 200IM than MA. MA is of all these guys the best 50 swimmer and the best 100 swimmer (for non-free strokes besides Phelps) but the 200 IM is a longer race. You can just watch MA die down the stretch and do like 1 UW kick off the wall and know he's hurting more than he should be at the end@@tylerguitar75
I have said this exact same thing but granted not as "nicely" back on one of the Michael Andrew podcast. Yet somehow I was more or less called an Andrew Hater and so on. I was saying exactly what Sonni is saying AND laughing at the delusion of Michael breaking the world record without learning how to swim freestyle. That no amount of race pace training no matter how many repeats he does preparing for it will matter..... He can't swim freestyle period. No amount of threshold or aerobic or anything matters when your technique is complete trash. Like I said back then I'll say it again now. Even though it would probably be harder now simply because well things don't usually get easier when you're older. But if he had anywhere near a even competent freestyle at this level, he would break the world record. But when your stroke looks like a bum summer league swimmer. You got no chance and if you go out in public and say well you're going to break the WR in the 200IM, I'm going to LOL at you. And I'd do the same thing if I washis parents or in his circle or if it was my swimmer. Sooner or later somebody has to just tell you like it is and stop blowing smoke up your ass and telling you lies aka what you want to hear. My advice to Andrew. LEARN to swim the 100 stroke and 200 stroke. TRAIN that stroke however you want. Do it race pace. Do it threshold. Do it in drills etc. BUT LEARN HOW TO SWIM FREESTYLE. Not just the 50m sprint freestyle stroke which is more or less a completely different "stroke" than "freestyle" Do that and break the world record! Beat Leon... I wish him the best. I really do. I actually WANT HIM to break the record. But I am not delusional. It isn't happening until he learns how to swim freestyle and doesn't get out split by women.
his butterfly stroke takes way too much energy. if you watch his stroke, it’s very flat and he is essentially using all arms and legs and not using undulation to make the stroke easier on himself, could save himself some more energy to the end
This not about Fitness. All the swimmers at that level are fit. The word is conditioning! Training for 50s is power, 200IM is an anaerobic overload, which is why He was not conditioned for 3 200 IMs coming up for 50s. Which is Michael Phelps and Leon Marchand are the fastest in the world.
His back joints aren't as good, and that's what bothers him in freestyle, and it's something he was born with, so I think it's hard for him to swim freestyle while surfing. .. like Phelps or ceccon or poppvici
Well these two coaches only want the best for the swimmer because they know he is capable of doing better. It’s up to the swimmer to spend less time surfing and making UA-cam clip and more time watching videos like this!!! Can someone change techniques after spending years doing it.
I’m not buying it. I understand from a business perspective why your defending Micheal considering he has a similar training philosophy and he is your poster boy to some degree. But to say his last 50m for the 2IM is technique is a weak argument. His technique was obviously shit because he was absolutely exhausted. You can clearly see all the bad habits creep in. The bad turn, no streamline, shit stroke. It’s not like he’s just not speeding up, he’s actively slowing down throughout the last 50. His 50 free PB LC is 21.4 so to go a 29.99. Almost 9 seconds slower (albeit at the end of a 200 IM) is just a gap thats way too big to blame on “bad technique”. Considering most of the elite guys that swim a 2IM have a 3-4 second gap from their 50 free PB the their back end IM free.
I’m a professional swimming coach…. What does my 200 IM time have to do with anything?! I’v😂 i’ve earnt my stripes on deck to have an opinion these things! What time does Eddie Reese swim for just about any events?! He’s spat out world beaters at all strokes and distances and surely would be classed an expert, if not THE expert. But I am also transparent so my best time is 2:18 with a 30.1 last 50. My first 150 was about 24 seconds slower than MA on his PB, my last 50 0.2 slower. I only raced this once in my last 5 years of competitive swimming at an in season meet :)
@@fittrad3r687 I wasn’t comparing myself to Eddie. I was using an example to explain how a coaches knowledge is not tied to their ability to swim. Here’s another one for you. Wayne Riddin coached Matt Sates from a young boy to a world title in this very event, 200 IM (albeit SCM). He has never competed in a swimming race in his life. But still think he has every right to be classed an expert at swimming. Would you not agree? You asked for context in your original comment. If I’d said 1:55 for my 200 IM PB would it change the validity of my comments regarding MA?
This Sunday, Sonny & I are doing an online clinic in resistance training. Sign up here - calendly.com/hawkebr/ways-to-add-resistance-training-into-your-swim-workout
Brilliant video
Completely agree. It's all about the freestyle stroke count. In the WR swim Lochte took 33 strokes and Phelps took only 32! Andrew took 37 when he swam his best time.
I dropped a solid 3-4 seconds in my 100 free by switching to a gallop stroke. There’s no question Michael Andrew can improve and break that world record.
Everyone loves talking about Michael
Finally people debating about technique or stamina.
I certainly agree 👀
You can tell he tightens up by the time he hits the free leg of the 2IM. I think he works harder than any swimmer those first 150m, so if he backed off a bit and worked on his endurance a bit and worked on that gallop stroke like you guys were talking about I think it would all come together for him on that event.
His endurance is his downfall. I swam against him at a meet once, and I had just finished a 400m free final, and then had like 20 minutes to recover before the 200m free final I swam against him in, and I beat him. That was his first race of the night.
@@startledmilk6670want a cookie lil bro
If he had a proper world class freestyle instead of bum summer league swimmer his lack of "endurance" wouldn't matter.
If he trained with the Florida distance group or sandpipers and had the same technique the result in the free would be the same.
His 50 sucks. Not because of what shape he's in. It sucks cuz he doesn't know what the hell he's doing.
I think Michael Andrew gives swimming the mood we need and the against the grain training we need to see. He's brave AND talented to take a risk to do something different than the typical swimmer. He benefits the swimming community in so many ways. Keep going Michael! Let the "haters" hate and work that talent, prove them wrong with your actions and of course praise God. 😉
Would enjoy watching Michael try a more efficient freestyle stroke.
I hope he swims it in Paris! I wanna see Marchand, Shun, Foster, and Andrew race just like that Athens 2free in '04
Shaine Casas can be a contender too-
@@ooflord6892 oh I agree, there was 5 guys in that '04 race with a chance, same.
@@ooflord6892 unfortunately only 2 Americans can swim it rip - trials should be 🔥
@@7mishelly 100%
I want to see him train for and swim the 100/200 free and at least go 48 low/1:48. His best times being 49.4 and 1:56 is just not good enough.
He can train USRPT and keep everything else the same but just use those events as development for the IM.
Imo he needs to gallop for that but if he can prove that he can get to those times without I'd be surprised but I think it would be good enough.
Do you think Biedermann developed the gallop stroke as a method of his vaunted final 50/100 blitzing of the opposition?
Love this type of conversations.
Now that was a video! More of this!
You guys are smart. If MA and PA approached this as purely a fitness issue they’d never overcome a technical problem. You’re right to point out that his kick goes MIA at the end of some of his 100 races sometimes, like the 100 fly. That puts even more stress on the arms when they can handle it the least. One thing I’d add is that it’s not a matter of lifting the recovery arm higher out of the water on his non-breathing side. The high arm recovery is totally dependent on body rotation, which is also the source of power. I think if Michael focuses on rotation and relies on his core for power on the last 50, he will be able to sustain the speed he needs. They were working on straight arm recovery for the 50, so he knows how to rotate effectively. His raw power is astounding. He may very well be the most powerful guy in the pool, bar none. I would love to see MA crush the last 50 and the WR!
rather than train for a multitude of events I think the event clash is a blessing for the first time we’ll see a more targeted approach from MA it’s the 50m free & 100 breast in this campaign - will narrowing his focus make him better or worse?
Thats another great debate to be had. I think MA swims best on his methods when he trains for everything…. But it was to tweak methods to be a all out 50 Free guy maybe that would really increase his ceiling (adding power work etc)
If we’re looking at it from MA’s viewpoint, and using USRPT methodology, the issue would be both technique and training, because the two go hand in hand in USRPT. The technique is what is needed to go the pace, and it is constantly being challenged and refined through the stress of training.
We’ve seen (and MA agreed) that training USRPT 200p helps his 100m events, and gives him the best ever 150m in the 2IM, but doesn’t translate to what he needs to do to finish that last 50. IMO, he just needs to adjust his training cycle and include some USRPT focus for the 400m/500y FR, where he can work on refining those elements of FR technique you guys discussed over longer distances and higher volumes, and that WR is his
You make a very good point. You have to train with the stroke technique that you race. Expanding the freestyle quiver by practicing maximizing distance per stroke, especially on recovery days, might do the trick.
You don't need to use that technique to swim at pace.
Swimmers all over the world have been doing it forever.
People swim at race speed with race tempo all the time.
An elite level athlete can 50m push their last split of a 200IM on the rest he gets with usrpt like it's nothing.
If he has to resort to his sprint stroke to do it that's because he doesn't know how to swim freestyle besides the sprint.
Can you do a world class 50 free while potentially adjusting technique and mileage for the 200IM?
Yes.
Kate Douglas.
Dressel can do it even though he doesn't race it hardly ever and occasionally swims to the 200 free.
But yes he has a 50 free stroke, a 100 stroke and a 200 stroke that isn't rubbish.
Training and technique, yes.....but another key component is mental application.
It's his Stroke & Technique, his personal Mark! We don't care comparing with others! Good luck to all!
Would love to see a full flow, no event filler, Duncan Scott go H2H with Michael Andrew on 2IM. It's the blue ribband for me.
Great video. Training, technique and maybe tactical. 23.9 for 50 fly - nearly a full second faster than Lochte & Phelps. Great M Bohl quote “can’t be too fast but can be too hard”. 🤷
Brett I think you made good points to validate the technique issue. The same reason MA is not as good in the 100 free vs the 50 free is the same reason and it gets magnified in that last 50 free of the 200 free. He can't swim fast fatigued because if he breathes he is not fast.
I see this in my 10 year old son when he swam the IM. He always struggles at the last part. It's not that he's not fit. He is very fit.
Perhaps a few weeks off of easy, very low effort OW swims in the tropics would develop, what Gary Hall Sr describes as, the “hybrid” type of freestyle stroke.
Do we have underwater footage of MA's freestyle?
Smart vid, I never thought of it that way. He's great at a 50 free, but the 50 free at the end of a 200im is a completely different context. Deserves a different technique.
He's a world class athlete. I can't imagine that he doesn't know how to do the galloping freestyle. Maybe he doesn't want to.
that’s great but he won’t race the 200 i.m in paris next year as it directly clashes with the 50m freestyle. hence the time hanging on his wall & why his focus should be adopting a mcevoy mindset in his paris preparation
I think it's both. If he's focusing on the 50 free then obviously he wouldn't be fit enough at the back end of a WR pace 200 IM. But his stroke could make that a whole lot easier. Then he just needs to focus training on the 2IM
Thorpe still has the fastest last 50 in a 200 IM ever and he only went 2:00 in that race. Although he was obviously capable of much faster
26.29 last 50 in 2003 for Thorpe
26.69 on short course as well in 2003. Only Lochte better at 26.59 when he swam 1:50. Thorpe swam 1:56@@user-wv2qd1vs2h
people forget that the total time is what counts, not the last split!
How about the age factor/ fatigued muscle twitch / failing to adjust-adapt to the new updated coaching techniques. As the saying goes. “ you can bang your head against the wall - bleeding or trying using the door to get inside”. Usually it seems you qualify well at your first Olympic and are wiser when attempting to qualify again at the second . Brutal and the young guns/those under the radar sneak up and do the damage. Swimmers have to have a Plan B when their careers are over with. ISL isn’t a long term/financially stable option.Not everyone was lucky enough to sign/receive sponsorship/ commercial contracts like Phelps and those days are gone.Large pool of swimmers/ limited amount of sponsorships.
I see Michael pretty often in Coronado. He is a great guy and works hard in his anaerobic way. He is extremely talented...arguably the most talented swimmer out there. It is not about technique, nor is it about training that will help Michael finish the 200 IM. He is simply not anatomically nor physiologically equipped well for the 200 m events. Virtually all of the greatest 200 IMers, past and present, including Phelps, Lochte, Marchand, Casas....are all middle distance swimmers. None of them are or were sprinters. Michael is a sprinter and built as a sprinter. He can train up to the 100 (if he chooses to)....but not the 200. Michael's muscle composition is more fast twitch than slow twitch fibers. He also has more girth and drag. Fast twitch fibers have no mitochondria...which means they can't use the oxygen, even if you gave it to them (BTW. he doesn't help this issue by breathing every other on the fly and 33 breaths per minute on his breaststroke legs). By the time he has put forth the effort of getting to the 150 faster than any other human being, his pH has dropped below the redline. Meaning, he becomes a rock. Muscles almost stop working when the pH goes that low. He has no choice. That is the way his fast twitch muscles work. That is also nature's way to help keep us alive. No amount of training nor technique will change that much.
As for his 100's, more aerobic training and longer (than 50's) anaerobic sets would likely help that. A better comparison with Michael is with Adam Peaty in the shorter breaststroke events. Adam (also a fast twitch swimmer) was the fastest 50 breaststroker in the world at age 19 but it took him a few years before he could handle the second 50 to set the WR in the 100. His WR (56.9) set was 60 SR going down, 62 SR coming back. Michael is pretty close to Adam in the 50 breast (26.4 vs 25.9) and swims that race at a 64 SR. In the 100, Michael swims it at a 42 SR. Why? Because he hasn't trained the right way to hold 60 going down and coming back. That takes a different kind of training.
Adam gave up the 200 long ago, even though he was pretty fast in it, because he knew he was not built for it. Michael should do the same for the 200 IM....or any other 200 for that matter. I am sure Usain Bolt could have run a pretty fast 400 m, but not like he ran the 100 and 200 m. Stick with the events you are best equipped to do. For Michael, that is 50's and 100's.
He can try to trick his body into believing that the 200 IM is really just 4 x 50 sprints with very short rest, but his body wakes up at the 150 and says "NO!...This is really a 200...not four 50's". End of race.
Gary Sr.
So his body is built (btw-how do you know?) for 150 but not 200? FT do have mitochondria but even if they did not, that would not mean that the supporting metabolic structure in other tissues could not make FT work...
As always, you confidently state wrong things...
yes, changing technique to be more efficient- less drag and more power (including a continuous pull, not lazy front arm), would make that last 50 faster (and that means shorter effort). I hope he had done all his months of training breathing left side only to get more symmetrical stroke. He will get that super-time sooner or later.
Totally agree about the freestyle technique. His freestyle does NOT look good.
20.73
I think he’s secretly in on the 200 IM
Cam McEvoy wr incoming
I tend to agree. I can’t find his 200 free time let alone his 4th 50 split from it.
yeah train harder, but what is train harder ? i do not know at what stageof his preaparation for Paris he‘s currently into nor do I know if he was fully tapered for the 200IM. Invite him for a podcast and you will get the answers.
Except in a 200m fly, I don't think Phelps was physically capable of dying as badly as Andrew did in that IM. As Bowman said, Phelps was a 400 swimmer who came down to the 200 and 100. Andrew swam all distances as a kid, but as an adult, he's become a 50 swimmer who swims up to the 100s. So just in terms of distance, the 200IM is out at the extreme of what Andrew's body is primed for. And the slowness of his 100 free relative to his 50 free and his stroke 100s shows that his 100 free stroke needs work. You can also see that it needs work just by watching how short it is. The guy is like 6'6" but he swims freestyle with T-Rex arms. *Some* of that is him tightening up in a way that only a super sprinter like him can do. But some of it is surely baseline technique that he can improve.
I’d have to agree when you look back at the swim. It’s really more of a technical problem than an actual fitness one. He can still kick (even tho it’s not that strong) at the end. His hands really don’t catch the water as it should because of poor technique.
If Michael finds the correct technique he will be able to break the 200im wr and go 47 in the 100 free
I think it’s technique. It’s not his fitness. He swims multiple events, potentially in the same session and races well. He has also trained for x amount of years. He isn’t unfit. I don’t think you can say needs to train specific to IM or say he isn’t working hard enough because we probably don’t know what he is and what he isn’t doing. The only thing we do know is that his current technique will not take him further… even if he was to be fitter. What we do know is that with a better technique he will go faster and sure… if he was to be fitter or train specifically for the event a bit more… it will add up.
I’ll go with 90% technique and 10% improvement in fitness to race the IM. But I really want to say 100% technique.
it is truee but micheal gotta rotate more in his freestyle
I personally think its a bit of both.. How is his aerobic capacity with his USRT? You can't sprint a 200 i.m its impossible. And yes the technique could be changed to a more 200m freestyle stroke.. But surely its a bit of both?
You can't go against world class swimmers the last 50 of the 200IM looking like a bad summer league swimmer technique wise.
@@albundy06 Yes.. but he goes 21.4 LC 50m freestyle.. he's not a summer league swimmer. He also has endurance for 100m races. he needs to work on his freestyle technique to suit the 200im no doubt!! But surely some more aerobic capacity would help too. The guy has unbelievable anaerobic capacity. Needs to improve his aerobic imo.
But how come he actually comes back 2% slower in the Olympic final versus Trials finals. Still technique? Or mental?
It’s, in my mind, more mental than technical.
Very little if anythibg to do with his technique - all down to his underdeveloped aerobic capacity. He tains for 50-100 meter events which are anaerobic events and he does it using race pace only. While that may be all good for his anaerobic metabolism, buffering, lactate removal and developing FT fibers, etc - it surely isnt quite what he needs for aerobic events of 200 meter and more. Thats a totally different way of energy management. For one thing, your ST fibers will have to work harder for longer, and its the ST fibers which contain a higher number of mitachondria which are the power houses of aerobic metabolism. The you need to develop the kreb cycle, electron transfer chain, myoglobin supply, capillaries, blood shunting of the ST fibers. Your liver, heart and lungs need to operate in a different way to delay acidosis and to remove and recycle lactic acid. Those things are developed at much slower speeds and much higher volumes than he trains for. His technique comes secondary in this respect. All that said, he is a great guy and an athlete. He does what he thinks is best for him and he is happy with that. Wish him all the best ❤
All this talk here about aerobic endurance, how much aerobic endurance do you need for a sub 2min event well above VO2Max pace?
I am on Sonny's side.
I think is more technical then aerobical.
But a good discussion to have, from us on the sideline. MA is doing a good job at swimming fast in 7 sprint events and puts together a very strong 2IM on top. That itself is special, how many swimmers are able to combine 2 or maybe even 3 different strokes on elite level and this guy does it on all 4.
So chapeau to that and considering adding an 8th event, in the Mid Distance range and having all these discussions. Maybe he just swims it like this, but very good at it and be World elite at 7 other events
The main reasons for developing fatigue in racing events are shortage of glycogen in muscle fibers and change in the PH balance in the muscle fibers aka acidosis.
While the amount of glycogen your body can store doesnt depend on whether you engage in mostly anaerobic vs mostly aerobic activity, what does matter is how your body is trained to utilize that glycogen most efficiently - explosively over short distances vs slower but more consistently over longer distances. So you do need to train specifically for that kind of adaptation - lower intesity and higher volume training must be brought into the mix - not only race pacing for 50 meter sprints.
Regarding acidosis. When sprinting over short distances your body will rely mostly on buffering, aka lactate prevention, to delay acidosis - the effect of lactate removal will be minimal, especially over short distances of 25-50 meters. That is the opposite for swimming events of 200 meters and longer. In such events your body will rely more on lactate removal to delay acidosis. The efficiency of your body's lactate removal is linked directly to your aerobic metabolysm in both FT and ST fibers.
Any effort above the average requires both aerobic and anaerobic metabolism, but to a different degree. Going at the maximum speed over a distance of 100 meters and longer does require strong aerobic capacity :)
@@deniskulik8994
Nice, almost a lecture in metabolic process here 😉
I do not disagree, nor fully agree. That makes it interesting and it also makes coaching and working in sports challenging.
Yes he needs a bigger aerobic base for a 200m (arguably ~35% anaerobic vs ~65% aerobic, as is estimated for an 800m running event). But how big and how to train him, I see MA as a speed based athlete. So he likely hates doing LSD and sucks at it. So you would likely need to do a HIIT like session on a big interval at the right pace, USRPT like, to best build his aerobic base and combine this with the right technique (no breathing 25 or ... vs 50's or 75 on 200m pace).
At least this would be my assumption from the sideline, based on ASR theories copied from running.
And then it would be interesting to see his speed at VO2MAX or CSS and his VO2MAX uptake.
Because how much is enough, to optimise a 200m coming from the speed end off the spectrum.
But hey, we armchair hero's in this story can have a nice talk and discussion on this. Him, MA, and his Dad will decide what they do and how they do it and we enjoy the ride and his swimming.
Absolutely, I have nothing but huge respect for Michael and Peter and wish them every success. They have made a tremendous contribution to the sport, no question about it.
The thing you are so perplexed about answers this question of technique or training. "Why can't he swim a fast 100 free?!" Sonny is correct. If he can swim a fast 100 in every other stroke how can you say it's lack of training? There is obviously a flaw in his freestyle technique where it only works optimally while not breathing.
It doesn't work period.
It only works in a 50m sprint. Which is why that stroke is only used in that event.
Breath or no breath. Look at the underwater footage of his stroke the last 50.
He would still suck with a snorkel on the last 50
One thing I want to say: Michael Andrew is the only sprinter in the World Who can Swim a 200IM, make finals and scare a World record to a 150m Mark.
A training session like 90x50s race pace is very difficult. But, how can you ignore the specificity principle? You get good at what you practice. Training 200s in training can be better for racing the 200, than doing 50s.
Swimming 200s will work you aerobic system but there’s not much specific to racing a 200 because you will be swimming a lot slower.
It's rather uncommon for 200 IM swimmers ( same for individual strokes other than free) to train repeat 200s at "pace"
@@albundy06 200 race pace is, of course, not feasible if you train with 200s. My thinking is, I’d be curious to see what training response MA would get from training high duration repetitions.
Agree
Also something with his rotation on his left side
His technics is odd in all strokes but free definitely the one I personally like the least
It's so weird how a guy can be 1 second off of the world record and everyone can be talking about how he "isn't fit enough" to swim that race. LOL.
The problem for MA is both - he doesn't have the fitness of the best 200IMers like Lochte, Phelps, Leon who are all elite 400IMers AND he doesn't have a good freestyle stroke for when you're tired and/or need to breath. We never see him swim a 100 or 200 free which would require breathing at some point, we only see him swim free in a 50 when he doesn't need to breath or at the 200IM when he's dead tired. Dressel (who's a way better 50 free swimmer) at least also swims and trains for the 200 free, he's not elite but that training helps his 100 free. MA just doesn't seem to be willing to push himself to practice events he doesn't like
How can you say that whenever MA's best 200 IM time is only 1 second slower than Lochte's world record? He's not as fit? That doesn't make any sense. Let's compare Lochte and MA's 50 free times or 100 breast times. Now Lochte isn't as fit. What sort of training does Carson Foster do? Jay Litherland? Tyler Clary? None of them are as fast as MA in the 2 IM, despite more aerobic training. Are they not as fit?
when I referred to fitness I obviously meant endurance/aerobic fitness. Clary/Foster/Litherland aren't as fast as MA but they've also shown better ability to maintain speed later in a 200IM than MA. MA is of all these guys the best 50 swimmer and the best 100 swimmer (for non-free strokes besides Phelps) but the 200 IM is a longer race. You can just watch MA die down the stretch and do like 1 UW kick off the wall and know he's hurting more than he should be at the end@@tylerguitar75
I don’t think he can cleanup his free if he’s only relying on his father as coach. He should seek out someone like Dave Salo.
I have said this exact same thing but granted not as "nicely" back on one of the Michael Andrew podcast.
Yet somehow I was more or less called an Andrew Hater and so on.
I was saying exactly what Sonni is saying AND laughing at the delusion of Michael breaking the world record without learning how to swim freestyle.
That no amount of race pace training no matter how many repeats he does preparing for it will matter..... He can't swim freestyle period.
No amount of threshold or aerobic or anything matters when your technique is complete trash.
Like I said back then I'll say it again now. Even though it would probably be harder now simply because well things don't usually get easier when you're older. But if he had anywhere near a even competent freestyle at this level, he would break the world record.
But when your stroke looks like a bum summer league swimmer. You got no chance and if you go out in public and say well you're going to break the WR in the 200IM, I'm going to LOL at you.
And I'd do the same thing if I washis parents or in his circle or if it was my swimmer. Sooner or later somebody has to just tell you like it is and stop blowing smoke up your ass and telling you lies aka what you want to hear.
My advice to Andrew. LEARN to swim the 100 stroke and 200 stroke. TRAIN that stroke however you want. Do it race pace. Do it threshold. Do it in drills etc. BUT LEARN HOW TO SWIM FREESTYLE.
Not just the 50m sprint freestyle stroke which is more or less a completely different "stroke" than "freestyle"
Do that and break the world record! Beat Leon...
I wish him the best. I really do. I actually WANT HIM to break the record. But I am not delusional. It isn't happening until he learns how to swim freestyle and doesn't get out split by women.
The dude's 100 free is 49.75... this is a PURELY technical issue
his butterfly stroke takes way too much energy. if you watch his stroke, it’s very flat and he is essentially using all arms and legs and not using undulation to make the stroke easier on himself, could save himself some more energy to the end
This not about Fitness. All the swimmers at that level are fit. The word is conditioning! Training for 50s is power, 200IM is an anaerobic overload, which is why He was not conditioned for 3 200 IMs coming up for 50s. Which is Michael Phelps and Leon Marchand are the fastest in the world.
When it comes to his freestyle, I'm afraid you're both wrong: it's a coach thing… yes, that elephant in the room that nobody is talking about.
His back joints aren't as good, and that's what bothers him in freestyle, and it's something he was born with, so I think it's hard for him to swim freestyle while surfing. .. like Phelps or ceccon or poppvici
My 2 cents: the technique is poor due to lack of training. He is not pacing it right also (remember Thiago Pereira).
Well these two coaches only want the best for the swimmer because they know he is capable of doing better. It’s up to the swimmer to spend less time surfing and making UA-cam clip and more time watching videos like this!!! Can someone change techniques after spending years doing it.
I’m not buying it. I understand from a business perspective why your defending Micheal considering he has a similar training philosophy and he is your poster boy to some degree. But to say his last 50m for the 2IM is technique is a weak argument. His technique was obviously shit because he was absolutely exhausted. You can clearly see all the bad habits creep in. The bad turn, no streamline, shit stroke. It’s not like he’s just not speeding up, he’s actively slowing down throughout the last 50.
His 50 free PB LC is 21.4 so to go a 29.99. Almost 9 seconds slower (albeit at the end of a 200 IM) is just a gap thats way too big to blame on “bad technique”. Considering most of the elite guys that swim a 2IM have a 3-4 second gap from their 50 free PB the their back end IM free.
his 3 stroke are unbelievable fast, but his free technique is unbelievable poor .
Be nice to have some context. As Sonny views himself the expert of all things, what is HIS 200 IM time.?!
I’m a professional swimming coach…. What does my 200 IM time have to do with anything?! I’v😂 i’ve earnt my stripes on deck to have an opinion these things! What time does Eddie Reese swim for just about any events?! He’s spat out world beaters at all strokes and distances and surely would be classed an expert, if not THE expert.
But I am also transparent so my best time is 2:18 with a 30.1 last 50. My first 150 was about 24 seconds slower than MA on his PB, my last 50 0.2 slower. I only raced this once in my last 5 years of competitive swimming at an in season meet :)
@@TheSwimsuitGuy appreciate the transparency. However, might want to check your ego. Comparing yourself to Eddie is laughable.
@@fittrad3r687 I wasn’t comparing myself to Eddie. I was using an example to explain how a coaches knowledge is not tied to their ability to swim.
Here’s another one for you. Wayne Riddin coached Matt Sates from a young boy to a world title in this very event, 200 IM (albeit SCM). He has never competed in a swimming race in his life. But still think he has every right to be classed an expert at swimming. Would you not agree?
You asked for context in your original comment. If I’d said 1:55 for my 200 IM PB would it change the validity of my comments regarding MA?
@@TheSwimsuitGuy you missed the point. Suffice it to say you are the best ever. 👸💃
Don’t argue with muppets Sonny.