The REAL Reasons Latter-day Saints Are Politically Divided
Вставка
- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- Republican? Democrat? Something else? Are our politics separate from our religion? How can people of the same religion have such wildly different political perspectives?
Full Episode: • The Fascinating Reason...
#mormon #lds #Religion #apologetics #christianity #exmormon #comefollowme #JacobHansen #atheism #politics #republican #democrat
I agree with you that separating religion from politics is bull crap, 100%.
@@victoria8801 amen
Well, of course we legislate based on morality. The problem is that faith includes some tenets that are accepted merely on faith, whereas law must be based on reason.
As an example, consider Utah’s stringent laws on alcohol, while there is no attempt to legislate against coffee and tea.
@@aBrewster29 In which alcohol has a specific effect that impacts others, whereas coffee and tea do not, which provides the reasoning.
@@aBrewster29 You need tourist money for whom coffee is their favorite drink. Money. Same as in Las Vegas Mormons work in the gambling industry. Howard Hughes liked employing them.
My brother left the church, and it started when he made the mistake of identifying his religion too closely with his politics
The ultimate difference between the left and the right is responsibility and consequences. One party believes in those principles and the other doesn’t. Issue by issue, this is the common thread.
It is the same war that was fought in our premortal life during the war in heaven.
Who are you steel-manning with this? I’ll try myself. The left cares about the oppressed/groups and the right cares about responsibility/individuals.
If you think the modern day conservatives are good than you are a complete fool
I wish it were that simple. Unfortunately, the Republican nominee has shown there are no consequences, because his enablers let him off the hook. The political division in the church has more to do with this fact than anything else. In recent years, the right has embraced freedom without responsibility. That has left those in the middle to side awkwardly with the left.
That's why the Republicans and corporations are always facing their consequences and not fighting in multiple court cases to avoid legal repercussions. Oh wait...
There are two types of people; (1) those who love their freedom, and (2) those who need the government to take care of them.
@@LDSpros How do you propose freedom loving people protect common goods from exploitation like air, water, forests, animal populations etc.
@mcable217 One third of the host of heaven lost everything because they wanted a government to care for them personally and guarantee their individual future (D&C 29:36). Today, half of those on earth want the government to care for them personally and provide for their shelter, food, healthcare, etc (partially or in full). EVERYONE wants a safe and clean place for their community. Nobody disagrees with that governmental role.
@@LDSprosOkay. We shouldn't inspect your food. We shouldn't make sure your medicine is safe. The free market will just build roads for us. Educate our kids making us competitive in the global market.
@lrsvalentine Again, the government should provide services that make the community safe. You know I'm talking about that group who wants the government to take other's personal money to take care of their personal wants because they value a nanny over their freedom and autonomy.
@@lrsvalentine No, we don't necessarily need the government to do any of that for us. If we could trust the government to do such things honestly, it would be different. But the government has proved incapable of doing all those honestly. Aoff of those government agencies are corrupt and bought and paid for. Safe foods are blocked in favor of foods injected with hormones to increase growth; Medications that are completely safe and useful are blocked from access because they are out of patent protection, and instead test results of new medicatioons are misrepresented and manipulated; infrastructure money is doled out for political favor rather than by need; and education is manipulated to propagandize children.
The fact is, your examples are exactly why the government should not do these. The role of the government is to provide for the common defense, secure the blessings of liberty, insure domestic tranquility (the peace of the community from crime and violence) and promote (not provide) general welfare. Anything else is an overreach.
I feel like it’s become pretty clear especially this week…
God is showing us that we have two choices in America right now. Option 1 is to repent as a people, unite as Americas and get behind gods laws and have freedom and prosper again.
Option 2: live under the new W order and suffer and loose your freedom until you can be humbled and repent. Could be 40 years until we become humble enough….
There is not a long term third option. That is not Zion. We are living the third option right now and it won’t last long before we loose our freedom. If you think option 3 which is everyone do their own thing and it will work out…you are deluded and have not read the scriptures or history enough.
You are all fools, trump is a shill for Israel, nobody we vote for cares for the American people. It is a certain group controlling things
TRUMP
The election is rigged - unless I win
The News is fake - unless it is flattering
Everything is a hoax - unless I say it
Nepotism is bad- - unless it benefits my family
I am rich - But you can’t see my taxes
I am smart - But you can’t see my grades
I am successful - But my businesses fail
I’m innocent - I am suing to keep records from the January 6th committee.
Trumps "core base doesn't really care what he gets up to" - sadly, this is all too true, and is a damning insight into Trump's America. His supporters will excuse him anything, they just want to see him punish people they don't like, particularly BLM, Anti-fascist, and socialist. Trump supporters are many things, but could be summed up in one word - bullies."
It’s so hard for us Latter Day Saints to choose between:
A) The side who supports abortion, tries to lock up their political opponents, and calls the other side Hitler
B) the guy who sometimes tweets mean things in capital letters
Such a difficult choice for us!
😂😂😂
So hard!
I'm sure you are being simplistic here.. but your 2 options don't cover all members of the church.
@@Jeanie-nv7lo I suppose the option would be to not vote and then let option A remain in power. Those who do so are complicit in those repercussions
Didn't JD Vance call Trump the American Hitler? yes, he sure did back in 2016
If there are 5 random members of the church with a rock solid testimony of the Book of Mormon and understand God's covenant with America found in 2nd Nephi Chapter 1, then those five random members will be in agreement about MOST political ideologies.
Ezra Taft Benson was courageous and true - maligned or at least shunned by progmos. President Benson accurately defined the economic and moral lines, and government overreach to enforce the immoral and amoral philosophies of men as a construct of Karl Marx. Communism has as much to do with community as BLM had to do with Black Lives. Mists of darkness are misty and dark. I’ll follow the prophet(s); if that labels me right, so be it…
@noelhausler8006 I knew there was a reason I liked that guy.
An embarrassment of riches, alright. He's too based! We have to share this with the rest of the world.
Benson was a heckuva guy.
@noelhausler8006 So am I!
@noelhausler8006 How racially diverse are those countries? Asking for a friend.
Benson was a looney tune. He called Eisenhower a communist.😂😂😂
Wow…Kawku’s “two roles” of government show me 2 things
1. He’s an intellectual lightweight on the study of government, natural law, and rights of man
2. He also very unfamiliar with the writings on the subject from church leaders - Ezra Taft Benson & Brigham Young come immediately to mind- but Hugh Nibley and JSMith have some great takes as well
Kwaku is so uneducated on the role and history of government- that he doesn’t even know that virtually ALL genocides and atrocities committed by government started out from the government “protecting its citizens”
🙄
Kwaku’s “government protecting us” sounds a lot like “and not one shall be lost” - it’s the EXACT same philosophy
My brother needs to get off all the podcasts and UA-cam- and into some books…so he won’t look so clueless on the subject
Jacob nailed it
There's only one reason Kwaku gets on these channels - and it ain't because he's a philosophizer
Kwaku is a baby progressive. He isn't completely progressive, but it's embedded deep enough in him that he can't help it. He only believes in the individual liberties that agree with him.
@@RichardChappell1 And you support individual liberty for all, right? People can marry who they want, smoke what they want, drink what they want?
@@jmut714 I absolutely support individual liberty for all to the point it doesn't impact others. Eat, smoke, drink whatever you want, provided you don't get in a car and drive or otherwise endanger others while under the influence or impaired in any way. I could care less who you have a relationship. If you want a relationship with you dog, I could care less. Marry, though, has a definition, and the way you are obviously using it is a false definition. Nevertheless, my position is that government should have no part of marriage. The legal applications we have for marriage were intended to establish formal relationships between fathers and children for responsibility. inheritance, etc, and should all be handled in different ways. Birth certificates provide formal relationship status and wills establish inheritance. Insurance should be handled through declarations.
That also provides that you have no right to force others to participate or acknowledge the fantasy definitions you want to use.
Any other lame assumptions you want to try?
@@RichardChappell1 I agree with basically all of that (although your disdain for other people's thoughts on marriage and how they'd like to be called is quite clear). The Republican party, however, does not agree with what you just wrote. They are not champions of individual liberty as they pretend to be. Neither are Democrats for that matter, but that's another story.
The reason: we all can look at the same exact thing and see it completely differently. Depends on mood, upbringing, current state of mind, etc, etc. It's very complex.
I have a fairly accurate eye for color - at least as far as color matching goes (I owned collision repair stores once upon a time, it's a long story) and it was always interesting to me when my painters would come to me for color advice. I think perhaps some of us see things more accurately than others, but we need to have grace for those that don't because they literally *can't* see what we're seeing. No matter how hard we try to explain it, the color we're seeing is *not* the color they're seeing.
It is complex when we rely on emotion and sensory input - they are not complete and unreliable. That's where reason - which God provided us and why we have the gift of agency - comes in. We can reason common good and law. Unfortunately, there is a virus undermining the ability of people to use reason and instead rely on emotion. In Jeremiah 17:9, we see the problems with relying on emotion: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Emotion is the natural man, which is an enemy to God.
Your statements about color vision is correct. On average, women have more cone cells per square inch in their eye, which makes women's eyes more sensitive to changes in color. Conversely, men typically have more rod cells per square inch, which allows better vision in lower light levels and better ability to spot movement.
We know that different people have different levels of ability for sight. Why shouldn't people have different levels of ability to see what the effects of political issues are?
@@88michaelandersen Because that is a misuse of the word "see." You are conflating the definition of see related to vision with the definition of see as related to comprehension.
Vision is primarily a physical ability, whereas comprehension has some physical ability component, but far more impacted by one's education - specifically based on comprehension and ability to reason. So of course, everyone has different levels of ability, but not in the same way as their vision.
President Oaks just gave this talk last general conference
There is a place for law
Thy scepter shal be a scepter of righteousness, and WITHOUT COMPULSORY MEANS, it shall flow unto the forever.
I got a better one.
Right vs wrong.
Romans 8:7. We will not obtain Celestial glory unless we, not only yield to the law or even champion the laws, but become the law or the word if you will. There is no need for enforcement in the celestial kingdom.
Captain Moroni for president.
Jesus 2024
Nobody for president.
Yeah, Gavin Newsom! The orange guy said that the Captain Moroni's of this world are losers.
@@Charlie-xu4zhwhaaat? Dictator Newsome?
You realize he is fictional character right? That’s the problem with brainwashed Mormons. They aren’t even living in the same reality as the rest of the world. Clinging to fantasy. Bathing in ignorance
Kwaku says we are a capitalist country but we are not capitalist when the government gives tax money to private companies as that gives an unfair advantage.
What exactly do republicans or “Trump” insist on being taught?
So is American history and civic classes. Since when is this bad?
People are worried about American History being taught through a Marxist lens that pits people against one another based on stuff that doesn't really matter.
That's when you see the underlying bias come out. It is an example of the projection of the left. The progressive radicalism of the left is a Marxist movement which relies on projection, among a number of other dishonest manipulations. The PR are trying to manipulate history and so when the GOP wants to prevent it, they accuse them of trying to create their own history.
I'm not sure who the speaker is, but it's obvious he's not really an independent. Maybe a little less leftist, but not willing to honestly evaluate the issues discussed.
The kingdom of God is a Kingdom of righteousness, people with pure heart!!!! and we going to follow the law of GOD because is right and pure!!!
The problem isn't really political ideology or form of government. The realm difference is the calber or type of people living under said system.
King George's government in the 1760s was far less oppressive than the American Republic today.
Socialism in Finland works far better than freedom does for people living in Liberia.
Altruistic people make the difference. A free society will never work for people who just want to take from others.
John Adam’s did say that the, “Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people”. Since we have gone away from that, that’s the reason we feel so much suffering.
In my observation, most latter-day saints tend to fail to understand that some of the themes illustrating evil that begin in earnest in Helaman and continue until the end of the Book assume they're just fairy tales or the stories of a far-distant people. They don't realize that Moroni was speaking directly and seriously to us when he said, "I have seen your day." They think that what's happening today to our moral agency, to our liberty of movement and thought is not their problem and that the Lord will show up to fix it. Maybe He will. Further, I would say that no latter-day saint would have been involved in the foundation of our country during the second half of the 18th century because we don't support dissent--just as no latter-day saints are around to thwart the fulfillment of the Constitution crumbling. Yes, it's hard, but I don't think it's that hard. When my own agency is assaulted, I rebel. You do as you wish.
Hmmm... you need to read over the Book of Mormon again. What contstraints and differences can you see from the founding of the USA to what the people have to deal with now to revolt? Also - tell me - when you read Lehi's dream - did Lehi jump on a cloud and travel over to the great and spacious building and cause its collapse? No.... if we are at the tree, we are not the ones who cause the collapse of that building. Our job is to stay by the tree!!
I agree with you. I can spiritually stay by the "tree" and fight, both, call it multi-tasking -- even a feminist should get that one. "Don't be contentious" (in other words: do nothing) is the new "RACIST" accusation (cancelling or silencing tool) by all those who would acclaim: "all is well in Zion"... uh, NOT, all is NOT well in ZION! For Jeanie-nv7lo, perhaps she needs a closer study of the book of Mormon, specifically 2 Nephi: 20-21 >>> 20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.
21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well-and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell. >>> "just stand by the tree"
Liked the episode. Recommend reading Thomas Hobbes’ 1651 Leviathan, which lays the foundation of Western/Christian thought for the social contract and the value of the tension between authoritarianism and libertarianism. This will give you the classic language for the both the vertical and horizontal axes.
The reason: We have had a very soft, feminine approach with policies and church HQ and leadership has sent mixed and evenly wildly incorrect messaging. I have to constantly debate with my family on where the church stands in order to keep them from going sideways. There was no doubt where the church stood 25 years ago. I love GBH but he was the beginning of a teddy bear church and there has been no counter. We are a soft female-centered church disguised as a strong male patriarchy. The patriarchy at all levels of leadership is soft and the church members are consequently weaker.
@@ruckin3 I agree almost 100%. I’m also tired of the milk toast, spineless progmos using, rather misusing, the term “contentious” as a silencing mechanism - it has become equal to the accusation “RACIST” to promote fear and so bind to the will of Lucifer. See D&C 112: 5 & 9, Jude 1:3. The feminization of the Church, rather the feminization of the Priesthood, is the result of sin, General idolatry throughout our people. No one wants to rock the boat, nor be called a racist, homophobe, nor especially “contentious”. The are profits to protect, Teslas, big screen TV’s and Smart Phones to be lost: God can wait, first things first - I can wear a mask and demonstrate my righteousness - give me a progmo bumper sticker to regurgitate like an imp. This is the reality of our degradation, and God is allowing us to become drunk with our own blood through the leadership of the church (there is where we separate. You and I are called to lose our lives, who in your Ward is risking their lives? See Isaiah 3:12 & 5:20. See Luke 6: 22-23
Good luck with questioning the brethren in public. But don't worry, you know better than the Lord who is actually in control.
@@Jeanie-nv7lo Couldn't even debate the actual argument or statements. Too quick to mount your high horse
I'm okay being wrong with this, but the impression I get is that the ease-of-approach the Church currently practices allows for many to be exposed, but those who are truly "elect" will naturally be exposed to "meatier" doctrine because there is a long history of resources to search from.
Right now, with just a few clicks, I can go from the milky "Your Life Has Prupose and Meaning" article on the front page, to 2 Neph 2:25 (about the Fall), To 70's Ensign Magazines with hearty content for the Soul.
D&C 29:7 is a real thing (The Elect hear My voice), but it is the Saints' job to Teach, Preach, Expound and Exhort among ourselves just as much as Leadership does.
@@Jeanie-nv7lo are prophets and apostles infallible?
I think Jacob is spot on. Thankyou
Just remember God said my ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts.
First. Jacob's beard is so hot, it makes my teeth sweat.
Hi Jonah, The Associate Professor of all things Apocryphal
Idk, Kwaku is pretty studded...
...in his ears, at least
But Jonah’s goatee 😍
Hey Jonah, in a ward radio video I saw recently you mentioned a couple ways you were told the world was going to end, but it didn’t, as a way to discount the science surrounding global warming. You mentioned acid rain and the hole in the ozone layer. Both of these were massive wins for science and government regulations. Acid rain was largely caused by sulfur dioxide from coal power plants. The government required sulfur scrubbers on emission stacks and the acid rain wasn’t a huge problem anymore. The international community came together and banned carbon tetraflourides and the hole in the ozone has started to heal.
Science and government regulations work, you should look into these examples!
Будь осторожно! Он женат!
All of politics comes down to theology.
The biggest problem with libertarianism is the market is too inefficient to reign in corrupt companies. This market inefficiency largely stems from inadequate information on the part of the consumer.
Not at all. Corrupt companies are controlled by a truly free market. THe real problem with Libertarianism is that it refuses any moral position, which means it follows every amoral position.
Is it the market that’s inefficient? Or is it the government that corrupts the market?
@@parker_rey Exactly. We do not currently have a national free market. For example, everyone loves to hate on corporations, but then use that to blame capitalism. All the while, corporations being an invention of government, keeping people from being personally liable. Not to mention all the meaningless licensing, fees, etc.
The scriptures talk only about the society of Zion but not about a kingdom of Zion.
“Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” | Some interpretations recognize that people should have a harmonious obligation to obey both at once, and that paying taxes to Caesar doesn't go against either earthly or heavenly kingdoms.
It seems like before Americans followed the commandments and had good morals, ethics, and principles and now we find a good portion of Americas don’t follow Christian ethics and it’s becoming very difficult to understand how we can get along when we don’t even agree on what is right or wrong. Do what you want as long as it doesn’t hurt me seems to be encroaching our religious beliefs and will lead to a breakdown. As things get crazier and we don’t obey gods laws we get more authoritarian laws. Its like the nature of law. Repentance is only where true freedoms come from.
You have to watch Jonathan Pageau’s documentary style series called End of the World. Best thing I’ve watched in a long time. It was amazing! You’ve got to watch it Jacob!!! It’s worth the money to watch it on the daily wire.
Pretty sure Jesus Christ has always been pro life and pro choice. Now it's your choice. Choose wisely.
But we all know the judgement he’ll deal out to those who choose abortion and choose to promote laws that end children’s lives. Choose wisely, indeed.
@@tmi9885 I know that you and @dwRS1 were talking about more the spiritual side of things, but if you want to have the political conversation... What government policy around abortion would be ideal for you? I promise I will not criticize or argue with whatever you write.
@@tarabates7088 the same that prevents anyone from just going and killing anyone they want. No abortion except for an actual life endangerment such as pregnancy in the fallopian tubes. Lifestyle, rape, incest and birth defect is not the child’s fault and it shouldn’t be a death sentence for them. The common argument against pro-lifers is that they only care about the baby in the womb but don’t want to support the welfare of the child after. I agree with the argument. We should have increased funding and capacity to allow for easy and safe adoptions, conservative financial support and services. How do we fund it? Stop funding these other countries and their people. Take care of our own citizens first. If we have homelessness, no amount of money should leave to take care of others, including people who come here illegally. These pro-life agencies will also need to step up as well.
I would amend what Jacob said, and instead of "use of force" it is "threat of force". In the celestial kingdom, there will always be the understanding that we will be forced out if we decide to become evil and lust continually for power over God.
To add to your point Jacob, we don't just fill the gaps with government force. We create the government programs, which then produce the fissures and break apart community.
I agree with Jacob on his definition and view of Zion. Can't wait to follow the King of kings (implying we will become kings) in the little piece of heaven that will exist on the earth. Those who live the CELESTIAL LAW will be in Zion, so no need for government as we know it or understand it today. Only the pure in heart, the meek, the devoted to righteousness will inherent their place in Zion.
Many people in the church are completely unwilling to follow their own religious values!
🇺🇲🦅Our religion is intertwined with our country, there is no escaping it! 🇺🇲❤America is the new Jerusalem! We will be judged on all aspects of life and all the choices we make regarding our country ❗️🇺🇲All we are being asked to do is to support Heavenly Father and his plan for America 🇺🇸 ❗️✨️🙏🏻🙏🙏🏽🙏🏿🙏🏾✨️💜Is this to much for God to ask of each of us? I think our Heavenly Father the creator of the Universe and the world 🌎 and he created us as well, has every right to ask this of us!
"And now, as the preaching of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just-yea, *it had had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else, which had happened unto them* -therefore Alma thought it was expedient that they should try the virtue of the word of God.
Alma 31:5
I think the biggest lines in this discussion has to deal with Christs and Heavenly Fathers role as our Authority. How involved is it going to be in Zion? How close to mortal kings in our vernacular will it be? When and how will this emergence happen personally compared to as a whole? What amount of free will will we actually have in this process?
Free will increases as we are obedient to God's law. If we are perfectly obedient, we will have ultimate free will. Free will has always been connected to the ability to live God's law. What most members don't understand is Satan lied from the beginning. He NEVER was going to use his FORCE to MAKE us live God's law. FORCE is used only to make people break God's law.
Wise words. I agree that Zion and the eternities function by non-compulsory means. I also think that the criticism by the guy in the middle about libertarianism not providing the culture/values is a bit misleading because that isn't its purpose. It facilitates it. True values flow from voluntary choice. Character develops by choice not by force - I think the host points this out well.
In the USA govt is more than just “laws” and enforcement. It also provides a way for people in govt positions to become extremely wealthy
I'm right there with you, Jacob.
This is how Christ will do it = “Teach them correct principals and they will govern themselves” -Jospeh Smith Jr
15:40 I’m not sure you can call government a necessary “evil” unless you also want to call Parents unnecessary “evil”. Because parents have to impose certain things on their kids in order for their kids to be safe etc and their family to be safe etc.
Wo to them who would preach division of any sort. Point to Jesus Christ Only. "What manner of men ought ye to be? Even as, I AM."
21:29 Zion is the pure in heart. So how do we create a pure in heart people? That culture. We need that. And no government or political messiah will accomplish it.
I miss Kuaku on Ward Radio. And Brad W too though he is on once in a while.
21:20 I'm under the impression that the Lord will allow us to create our own variants of organization (Primarily focusing on the ability to freely travel between these "communities") and things will iterate (from structured to loose) as we understand the principles to the point of "One Heart, and One Mind (and no poor among them)" that the need for structure will evaporate away.
Zion is a state of being
Hi this is Tom, during the millennial era, there will be two capitals in the world. One in New Jerusalem (Missouri, political kingdom) and the other in Jerusalem (spiritual kingdom) The political kingdom in the New Jerusalem (man child, constitution) will be established as a rod of iron to rule the earth. There have been several talks in GC on this. Peace makers and no contention among us has been the subjects. Therefore, we must all learn to get along with each other, because of the differences of people's backgrounds. All will not be members of this church. But just like this constitution of USA, this man child, to rule the nations with a rod of iron, will be fair and just almost if not perfect form of law. It will not hamper or hold down a person. It will enhance each individual to become the best person ever. Because this man child is has come from God, it will uplift and support each person to their fullest potential. Can you imagine a government helping and providing a way of life to a perfect aid for agency. Same as our founding fathers wanted for us, this constitution was supporting God's plan on restoring His Gospel for His children. Now it's falling apart and not able to function the way our Heavenly Father needs it to function in order to preserve our agency and have the right to choose Him. May I also add, this constitution can only work with righteous people. It cannot function with evil people at the helm.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on the earth but is at the present limited to an ecclesiastical kingdom. During the millennial era, the kingdom of God will be both political and ecclesiastical (see Dan. 7:18, 22, 27; Rev. 11:15; JST Rev. 12:1-3, 7 [Appendix]; D&C 65) and will have worldwide jurisdiction in political realms when the Lord has made “a full end of all nations” (D&C 87:6).
Oh no. It's that one guy again. 🤦♀️
Jacob, thanks for having Kwaku on. I love him on Ward Radio, but I love him as a guest on other shows even more. Have him on more often.
God's Kingdom would never use force, and would never NEED to. My God is a God of love and those who inherit His Kingdom have achieved a level of perfection that makes sin impossible. Lower levels of His Kingdom will likely require some laws that would protect ALL those who inherit a lesser kingdom from the less than perfect choices of others. Each level is self-assigned as a result of our choices so, again I still think that the use of force would only be used to protect other of Father's Children. I'm sure the use of force was required when casting Lucifer out of the Pre-mortal Realm. I think the level of poor choices each soul is responsible for defines the level of physically enforceable laws they become subject to. I think that's also why we can continue to improve in the next realm. It might be more difficult to repent in the next existence but it's never taught that our stations are permanent unless we choose to make it so. The only exceptions being "The Sons of Perdition".
I guess you've never read the Bible or the Book of Mormon.
Plato looked forward to our day and was jealous we can discuss things like this so easily
🤔🤔🤔
"I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves." Is a core Libertarian Party sentiment in the party platform.
Weigh that with the idea "Democracy is two wolves & a lamb voting on what's for dinner" and it's understandable why we have a Republic & not a Democracy. Majority vote [might] isn't always right.
James Madison said, "If men were Angels we would have no need of Government." That plays very well with Alma 5 and the concept of people losing a disposition to do evil.
Some issues need twmpering from Alma 14. It's not our human responsibility to protect people from the results of their choices or make prejudiced assumptions of their life circumstance.
Governments only real role then is to intervene and fairly jusge when people individually are incapable of resolving their own problems.
It's judicial laziness though that moves us away from George Washington's admonition to avoid precidence and evaluation on a case by case basis into twlying upon precedence and minimum mandatory sentencing so government laws are the victim instead of the teue to victim getting restirurion where appropriate.
Historically the pioneers were hardcore Democrat. Lincoln had a platform to eliminate the twin barbarisms of polygamy and slavery. It was the Great Depression, & both World Wars , where the religious shift to Republican over Democrat came as the Church wanted members to work within the social welfare system created by the Church, & not depend upon Government, where the shift began.
Libertarianism was an early 1970s political creation. Some of the hot button issues though really make people crazy - Abortion, prostitution, drugs & alcogol. If you've lost your disposition to do evil these a moot points though and the understanding is refocused to the desire to control the behaviors of others.
There is enforcement and then there is protection. A lot of what government does on a regulatory level is for the protection of its citizens. Think about it, without government enforcement would farmers still be using DDT, would there be lead in our gasoline, would we still be putting asbestos in our ceiling tiles? To do all this takes money, hence taxes, money doesn’t grow on trees.
I think the government's role is to provide justice, and to lead. So that means they should be striving for a moral high ground at all times, outlining what that can/should look like correcting people when they've gone way wrong and to be exemplary of that good. It is a difficult discussion because we must also consider that the government is imperfect because it is manned by imperfect beings.
And I think it is the Church's and community's responsibility to provide mercy, programs, help, and the like.
I agree with Jacob here on almost everything with the notable exception of Zion being governmentless. As Jacob defines government as an entity that institutes laws under threat of force I think the same holds true in Zion. Everyone willingly will choose to follow the laws of God but the threat of force still remains in the concept of hell. Thus, it is a government and a kingdom with Christ as the king. After all as Latter Day Saints we do believe those who choose to break Zion’s laws will spend the millennium in the aptly named “spirit prison”
Be careful not to conflate force with ostracism.
🤔🤔Slum Lord?
What about "BYU approved housing" and the real scenario of someone pushed out of BYU school loses their Apartment?
Yes, Zion is a place where everything is good because everyONE is good
We are voluntary subjects to the King of Zion. God doesn’t have to enforce edicts by force. Zion, because we choose to be subject to his laws. That is the ONLY WAY that his laws do what they are supposed to do, which is change our characters. The name Enoch means “initiated, inaugurated, or (in our current temple terms) endowed”. And so, the City of Enoch is made of those who are initiated into the temple covenants to be subjects of the King of Zion. In turn, he will make us kings and queens through the same laws that made him King. If we choose not to be subject to his will anymore. He doesn’t imprison us, rather we choose a different kingdom of glory.
You must have underlying shared values and principles, and vision.
Since we believe we are the only true Church, then the parable of the five wise and five unwise virgins can only be talking about LDS members in the last days. The main division then will be the five ready and the five not ready, with only the first five entering the wedding and the others being shut out.
I keep trying to disagree with Jacob on something and i find it difficult to do so. Other two guys made good points but it’s clear Jacob’s analysis is more well developed.
I think you are on the right track on your political graph, but I suggest the original one you posted was partially correct. I think you go off track seperating politics and ethics. Politics is purely about group decision making. They don't really correlate that way. I suggest there are two axes, with one being the amount of external control - that is the anarchy-authoritarian axis. The other axis though, is about internal control, or in other words, the ideal to control one's own behavior. An example of the extremes of this are the puritans on one extreme vs the 60's free love society who believes anything goes as another.
The traditional hippy, such as a Camille Paglia would be low on the external control (anarchy) and low on the internal control (free love, anything goes) axes.
The Marxist ideal is high on external (authoritarian) control, and high on the internal control (puritan) axes, although in practice, it was focused ont he external control. In fact, high on the external control oversteps the internal control, because it removes the option (moral agency) to decide.
Reagan conservatism was at a slightly lower than half on external control (minarchist), and probably central to a little higher on the internal control axes.
Anarchists would fall on low external control as a line with any range of internal control. THat's the primary problem with Libertarians as a party. WHat Jacob is callin ethics here, is really the amount on internal self control. The Libertarian Party is across the board. That's why if you ask three Libertarians what it means to be Libertarian, you will get 4 answers, along with why the others are wrong.
Authoritarianism is a line as well, because, as I said before, it overrides internal control for most outward behaviors.
In my mind, the ideal, and how I see represented in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, is a low authoritarian, wioth a high internal control - people choose to be good because it's good, and so the government doesn't have to.
Because of agency though, there can be no lack of authority. But they authority any government has should be limited to that which any person has over another - only the amount of control to stop someone from interfering with your individual rights. Any harm someone does to another would violated that, and so people are justified in stopping it through an appropriate level of power. Whether it is a posse as with the old west, or a police force, it's really the same. That's the beauty of the US Constitution. It creates that form of target to protect individual rights, but gets on shaky grounds when including the "good of society." That's the tool of pure democracy which denies individual rights.
You have to rip a LOT of pages out of your quad to come to the conclusion that "Kingdoms are inherently bad." Yes, Satan is the prince of this world, and exercises dominion over the kingdoms of the earth. But Christ is the true King, and he will to establish his kingdom.
Have you ever explored the Catholic social teaching of Distributism, promoted by among other GK Chesterson?
Why does the guy in the middle keep implying that Trump is going to force authoritarian religious rule in schools?
He's using that premise as an example to his friends on the left to argue that government, in general, regardless of who's in office, should have less influence in our public schools, not that Trump would actually do that
Yes, the USA is going to be ruled by the King, the final prophet who praises God
Church/Religion is an educational system to help the individual develop attributes/relationship with Christ.
The organization of wards ext allows practice and opportunities.
The Brethren, as apart of their calling, have obligation to protect the church and so stay out of conflicts and only insert into politics when it endangers the organization.
I don’t believe “we” can build Zion. I think Christ builds it and we are given the honor of helping.
Kind of like the creation of this world.
My understanding.
Kuaku, Satan didn't TAKE Jesus anywhere. 😊
Kwakus moustache 😂😂😂
19:35 - horses originated in ancient America
14 And thus there became a great inequality in all the land, insomuch that the church began to be broken up; yea, insomuch that in the thirtieth year the church was broken up in all the land save it were among a few of the Lamanites who were converted unto the true faith; and they would not depart from it, for they were firm, and steadfast, and immovable, willing with all diligence to keep the commandments of the Lord.
It happened one, it will happen again.
Excellent discussion!
Government shouldn't inspect Jacob's food or make sure his medicine is safe.😂😂😂
Anything that requires force is not of God. End of the story.
God expelled Satan and 1/3 of the hosts of heaven, sounds like by force because they aren't happy about it.
Jacob, I appreciate that you host your discussions and defend the faith. That being said, these political ones during election season hit a nerve. Please forgive me arguing frequently in the comments.
That being said.
I wonder how you (Jacob ) think that “the bad guys” are kept out of heaven. Surely not everyone will try to stay out just because of the guilt they feel. Even after a thousand years, Satan will be loosed and right back at it.
Easy. Heaven isn't a physical place. It's a state of being. It's a glorified condition. And that is totally inaccessible unless you live by the laws upon which it's predicated.
Heaven is a physical place though. We believe in a physical and spiritual God. We are physical and spiritual beings living on an Earth that is both physical and spiritual. The spirit world is on Earth and heaven is another separate locale.
Trump was saved from God, God chooses President Trump as president
The rapist criminal? I think not. Look up Trump and Epstein and Katie Johnson. She was 14. That’s who you think god has chosen?
Jesus didn't view the tax question as spiritual.
#RFK
That guy looks like Kirby Heyborne
Libertarianism is not what it use to be. Today it is extreme leftism, unbound by morality, ethic, or principle. It is highly anarchistic and subject to radicalism. To be clear, Libertarianism is completely incompatible with religion (any religion). I would have drafted a diagram defining Zion as conservative; subject to rules, bound by an ethos, and answerable to God - administered by a government of the people in accordance with divine covenants. Zion is not going to be terribly different from the system we have today. The most measurable difference will be the abdication of humanism as an influence in that governance.
I'm not a fan of these edited discussions, because editing is inherently biased. I prefer the full discussions. I need to not let myself get baited into watching these edited versions, which are released first, and just wait for the real version.
Jacob is a clown. Taxation is theft?😂😂😂 Jesus had no problem with it. Render unto Caesar....
Jacob is as extreme as one can get. His brand of “conservatism” is hateful and selfish and anti-social
It's not that complicated. ZION is those who have taken the Spirit to be their guide, obey the voice of that spirit which is Jesus Christs voice and have come unto christ, become purified through his atonement and thus have willingly subjecteed themselves to his order, his way, his understanding, and then see eye to eye with Christ and all those who follow this path and then have chosen to make themselves full members of Christs kingdom and church of the firstborn. Its all outlined in the scriptures, moral agency is woven throughout this path, there is no coercion by Christ or anyone else in His Kingdom. Those who do not follow this path will then be assigned their own kingdom of glory.
Zion is terestrial not celestial
fair point. Zion will be made up of those who have controlled their appetites enough to be living in such a way as to not offend the Spirit and therefore God (terestial).
Can’t stand Kwaku holy crap
I disagree, reducing political thought Liberty is just as bad as reducing it to economics. it's single factor analysis which is always bad. conservatism worthy of the name is trying to balance Liberty with other principles such as hierarchy, maintenance of the people, protecting themselves from Outsiders and from Insiders. Giving weight to the constituent communities that make up the people and as much as possible making sure that prestige an honor are distributed.that the competition between the communities do not become so taciturn as to cause a conflagration or that one of the factions might invite a foreign element within the community to secure dominance. it loves reason but is skeptical of the reason of any one particular person regardless of how brilliant they might be. relying more firmly on the collective wisdom of tradition only modifying it when necessary and carefully. does putting reason the universal solvent into its place.
because if we use axiomatically that Liberty is the ultimate good, therefore I should just become dictator so that I can have my maximal freedom, Nietzschen Ubermech. unless you say that I must consider the liberty of other, but this interferes with my freedom others as well. which is the impediment of the ultimate good which is the ultimate freedom. so logically it would still be better for one of us to reach that goal of the ultimate good for the ultimate good would finally at least be reached by at least someone.
you see why an axiomatic rationalist system is so monstrous? it should be rejected by not just every Latter Day Saint but every human being on the planet. Politics should be broad-based in its principles. we have gotten into this mess we in our hubris rejected the wisdom of our forebears. or alter them to suit our eyes.
I so love h😅ow you can disagree so diplomatically.
Lol 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Kwakus here? I’m out
I disagree with the axiom that government is only about force.
The government also provides public goods, such as information.
I believe that the scriptures speak of kingdoms because they were the institution most similar to Zion at the time.
Similar to how we speak of God having a body like ours because it is the most similar to God.
What do you think Jesus would liken Zion to today?
Corporations, Unions, Guilds, Churches, Communes, Republics, Democracies, Parties, …
Each of them could be used to gain insight into Zion’s character.
Nope - government's only process to get us to comply is force and they never give us all the information to make a proper informed decision. Most recent example - covaids.
@@fredeisele1895 The government certainly provides information. Only fools trust everything the government tells them.
Dude Jacob this self described libertarian guy is a clown
What's the point of making statements like this? Even if it were true, all you're doing is inviting valueless contention.
Jacob is a clown. The government does cutting edge research in medicine and oh so many more things than his clownish "makes laws".😂😂😂
Abandon capitalism and communism, the third way, the true way is fascism
Lol who cares about politics right now go find a real job.
The ultimate difference between the left and the right is responsibility and consequences. One party believes in those principles and the other doesn’t. Issue by issue, this is the common thread.
This is the most accurate summary.
I would also add - victimhood vs taking responsiblity.
Can you expound? Are you saying democrats believe in the responsibility of being their brother's keeper by providing social nets for the marginalized while the republicans do not?
@@kuriju88 Using the threat of government to force charity isn't being your brother's keeper - at worst it's tyranny. Don't lie
@@chuckmartel1874 So voting to use money for programs to help the disabled and the infirm is tyranny? Just trying to clarify