@@jacoblewis2961she definitely has a beautiful spirit. I really enjoyed her talks and insights. Love the “choose your own adventure.” Also the compassion she used when speaking about the work of defense lawyers and those who need them.
I Really like that Margie!!!!! She always brings your program up a notch John . more than other women with whom you may have cohosted with over time. Bar none. She brings an empathy and very big spirit of kindness to the mix. I feel like I could sit down with her and talk and listen to her for hours!
Oh my goodness yes! I love her wisdom, kindness, calming voice. She makes you feel like you’re getting your hair brushed by someone. If that makes sense.
I'm one of those never-Mormons who look forward to these conversations. I deconstructed from another religion, and hearing these stories makes me feel good on the inside.
Same. It’s helped my own deconstruction journey in ways I could never have imagined. Intelligent in tune people who are doing their best to live an authentic and honest live. ❤️
man there’s nothing more validating and empathetic and calming and kind than a margi “that’s right.” that phrase means everything when it comes from her!
OK, long time listener here- The most influencal part of this discussion here was, " Mothers are not the sacrificial lambs of the FAMILY! I have been doing this even still after leaving the Mormon Church. I am still attempting to "unlearn what I have learned!" Love your podcast John! Thank You, and Margie for all of your sacrifices! I've am so grateful! ♥️🎻😎
After watching hundreds of episodes this is the episode that finally made me become a member of Mormon Stories. Thank you, Fran, for sharing your journey! I wish you all the best.
Loved this episode. And loved Margie in this! It really hit me in the feels when margie said what if happiness is not the point? What if the point is feeling more aligned with yourself? That’s such a powerful insight I never considered…. but it makes so much sense and spoke so much to me. I feel as mormons we are conditioned to always be on a wild goose chase for the happiness that is always almost in reach until something happens and takes you to a dark place of despair, because you are never going to be good enough. Thank you so much to margie and john and all the guests that have the courage to pour the most vulnerable part of themselves online. Thank you Fran
Your guest is extremely well spoken, and her experiences are relatable. I’m so sorry you experienced such a catastrophic loss so young. My heart goes out to you, even years later! ❤😢
Thanks Fran! My SIL deconstructed alone in silence (non of us knew except my brother her husband) and I wish I could have been there for her. I love to hear stories like this so that I can make sure I'm actively showing her compassion and understanding. My deconstruction was not nearly as painful since I had had a long period of inactivity beforehand but she was fully in before she left. This was a top notch episode!
I was hanging onto every word. I could sympathize with so much of this, and being only 7 months into deconstruction and starting to feel so many things Fran described made me feel so at ease and validated. Thank you Fran!
❤❤ thank you so much for this comment. When I was in your stage of deconstruction it was so fresh and I felt so validated by Mormon Stories. I’m so happy my story could provide that for you 🥹
I respect that you said as a parent you will not keep your kids from joining the church and allow them their freedom…yet also that you will tell them of what the church will not tell them so they are thoroughly and intelligently INFORMED.
my family moved to Utah just over 2 years ago. we are non-denominational preterist christians living in a a heavily Mormon area. My son goes to school with many of these young boys and they confide in him the incredible pressure from the church. several do not believe in the church and yet feel that if they dont go on a mission after high school, that they will be ostracized. they seemingly hate the idea of going, but also feel trapped and like they dont have a choice. The girls he goes to school with are either incredibly flirtatious and desperate for a boy's attention or they are obsessively church oriented. its crazy to hear from my son what its like. these are GREAT kids. GREAT character and grounded, but they are struggling with the pressure to conform. some of his friends have already left on a mission and they all worry that when their friends return, they wont be the same. The LDS church focuses its energy on money and conformity. there doesnt seem to be much that they gear towards a relationship with God. they celebrate Halloween MORE than Easter (the resurrection of the savior) and Christmas is downplayed. Its a strange area because they seem to be trying harder and harder to claim "Christianity" but you can tell that culturally this is more of an attempt to fool Christians into attending their church. Their faith is in their church. their faith is in Joseph Smith. so its a bit sad to watch...
I decided to go to law school as part of my deconstruction process too! I had gone into teaching, partially from a prompting, partially as a “mom job”, and it was so freeing to actually choose to be whatever I wanted to be.
One of the best podcasts I've seen on Mormon Stories! Well spoken, honest and sincere! If the church truly works for some people, great get after it. But for some of us it's painful and I don't fit in the box.
Another story about the tree falling on the family, Emma was my neighbor so I had my father (GA) come down and give her a blessing that she would be healed. (She wasn’t.) and that she would run and play again (she didn’t). This affected my faith negatively. I couldn’t understand how God wouldn’t want to heal her. She was like 5
Just wanted to say how much Margie brings to the conversations....so tactful but so insightful. She draws it to the depths of someone's experience and thet feel safe to share. ❤
I was working as a 911 dispatcher the day of this horrible tragedy. It has stayed with me my entire life since. I remember getting counseling debriefing together with some of the rescue workers. We wept and kept asking ourselves if there was more we could have done. I believe it really hit home to me because my brother died in an accident when I was 6 and so much of what you expressed here really hit me. Thank you so much for sharing.
My dad lived until he was 90 and right at the end of his life he expressed his sadness that he wouldn’t be able to live with my brother. When I asked him why (through tears) he felt that way he said that he “knew” he hadn’t lived his life perfectly and so that meant he couldn’t be with him. I spent the rest of the week he had left trying to convince him that my brother would be there to greet him. I’m not sure I convinced him. He lost his speech because of a stroke shortly after he told me how heartbroken he was that he felt he was going to be without him. My dad had quit going to church about 15 years before he died mostly due to health problems and caring for my mother who was bedridden. He never left her side but it had never occurred to me that because of his situation he thought he had lost the chance to see my brother after he died.
This is why I love Mormon Stories. I resonate with every single person you interview. So much of Fran’s story is similar to mine! I went back to nursing school during my deconstruction process and now I’m enjoying being able to support my family as a NICU nurse. I wish my husband would have responded as hers did, though. Mine still thinks I’m an apostate 😐
I've listened to so many of episodes over the years and always learn something new from every guest. Fran, your insight regarding the "comfort" ability of the Holy Ghost was profound!
My very best girl friend went back to work when her oldest was six months old because she realized she was purposely forgetting things at the grocery store just to get out of the house. It’s okay.
I’m a never-mormon and have been watching MSP for the past few years to listen and learn through people’s stories. Listening has had a profound impact on my life- I’m consistently moved by the insights that come from those inside and out of high demand religions. I especially appreciate Margi’s emotional intelligence in episodes where she’s a co-host ❤ Thank you both for all you do!
This girl is so beautiful& watching her shake through the entire interview from the trauma these people put her through- is endearing to see. I just wish I could give her a hug right now! Hang in there there. Life gets better once u know who YOU REALLY are. And that’s the fun part
Hubby and I have been out of the church for 6 years and are still deconstructing. Your point of not trusting yourself, nor being viewed as valuable as a man (due to being a woman) is a huge hurdle. When Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling pointed out that Smith's mother signed an affidavit statement saying something to the effect of not hearing about the first vision for years after it supposedly happened, I knew I had been lied to. It takes years to shake off all the ingrained 'isms' and reestablish who you are and where you belong. It can be painful but so freeing. And it is SO very important. Thanks for sharing your story.
Learning that you’re actually smart when you 30…yeah that’s me at 34. Lacking identity, not knowing yourself, seeking validation from every other outside source. Fran said that very well. I haven’t been able to articulate that quite as well! Relationship phases, expecting change and rolling with it. I love that. Awesome tattoo!! Thank you for your story Fran!
I can’t believe that I ever thought it was ok for any child to be interrogated by a bishop who they don’t know and then to be asked such intimate questions.. at 12 years old that’s SA!! That’s above and beyond inappropriate!!!
💯me too!!! I still scratch my head that I allowed it and even engaged it!!! I’m embarrassed and some what ashamed that I didn’t protect my children more. But, when you’re in you’re in…and you honestly before you’re doing the right thing
It's because we all assumed each Bishop or Stake President was an honorable decent person who truly loved their "flock". I raised three daughters in the church and cringe to hear some of the stories they tell me about Bishop interviews and that I never even considered would be problematic.
It is absolutely a charge of Sexual Interference, rather than Assault, IMO. No way is it not criminal considering the power imbalance between a church official and a minor (a 12 year old at that!), but the child is without a parent, stuck there. What a feeling of not being protected and abandonment, shame, embarrassment, and bewilderment (ie) when the child didn’t at first know what masturbation even was. It doesn’t matter what the bishops’ intentions even were. It’s criminal by the laws where I live, but I don’t specifically know about Utah. I DO know it is gross. All of the adults need to do better!!!!
@@utuberhoda100%. We “knew” what we “knew” and did the best we could with the info. It’s cringy now but made sense then. We learn new things and do better.
Man teary eyed from the start and seeing maternal loving angelic Margie get teary just reaffirmed to me she is absolutely the best cohost. Love this episode so much. Such a beautiful story ❤
Fran!!!! Who would've thought that two U of U court women would have appearances on mormon stories! I'm so excited to listen to this and wish you all the best. Sending love to you and your beautiful family! Thanks for supporting me in my hard times during those court years. Louisa Killian (Rankin)
Being turned away publicly at the altar for being a divorced woman shamed me & humiliated me. Asking for help for baby sitters as I was a single mom holding down two jobs & buying our home. No one trusted me as a single woman being looked upon as 'loose'. Many years later I went to Vatican City I was shocked at the many businesses & realised it was a business. The abuse claims that were hidden. Priests moved onto to do it again in another area. Children blamed for encouraging the abuse. It all screwed with my mind I had to get away. At 63 I'm still working through the grief etc.. These stories help us all in one way or another. Thankyou both ❤
I’m an escapee from a religious cult but not Mormonism and love these posts. They are really enlightening, healing and educational for me. It has helped my deconstruction enormously. It’s a whole other language! I was concerned about a comment John made;was he saying her parents would grieve more for Molly than Fran? Or did I misunderstand? Everyone grieves differently. None is worse than the other. I cannot imagine being 8 and suddenly having a room to myself and no more room mate and giggles in bed.
Nevermo here too. As I understand it 'Molly' or 'Molly Mormon' is a common phrase amongst (ex-)mormons for a woman who is a full believing member of the LDS faith. So parents grieving more for Molly is a way to explain how believing parents sometimes care more for faithful children than for ex-mormons such as Fran.
I’m the exact same with parenting. Love newborn stage. Love working. Love sending my three year old to daycare to learn from people that love that stage. ❤
Important to remember - you don’t have to have a job to find yourself! But I agree moms need to find their passion. But it doesn’t have to be working/daycare/away from home. It can. But it looks different for everyone. I am a stay at home mom and I do A LOT with my kids or even by myself at home. Let’s not make stay at homes feel like they’re are missing their calling. It works both ways.
Hey this is Fran! If there was one thing looking back that I would’ve liked to clarify in my interview it is your exact point. That for many women there is so much passion and joy to be found in being a stay at home mom! And even then it should be with the mindset that you are choosing it and it’s not forced upon you. It’s very likely that many women will fit very happily and comfortably in a traditional model, but it should be by choice ❤
I'm a recovering evangelical and the discussion about being a disappointment no matter how good you are hits pretty hard. I feel like that finally put a label on the feeling at least one of my sisters and me have. Maybe it would feel like that even if she weren't a xtian, but it sure feels like it's only because we don't share her faith anymore.
It’s occurred to me that this box the church puts people in can also be a stressful burden on men too. Knowing they are the sole provider for the family and if for any reason they can’t, would possibly feel a lot of fear and shame. Wouldn’t it be nice if partners could move out of societal norms and progress and work together wherever necessary.
A family member of mine went through so much anxiety about his future as a breadwinner that he required counseling for it when he was still a child. It’s so much pressure.
As a never Mormon I feel I know more about, the cult of Mormonism, from the inside and outside. I know more than the people I know and love that were converted to or raised in that Cult.
Margie is the heart and soul of this show. Her crying at the guests sad tragedy with such empathy. The show is so much better with Margie. She is such an empathetic caring woman.
Wonderful story! I grew up in Orem and later we raised our kids for many years in Orem as active Mormons. It is wonderful if you are Mormon. As a child of an inactive non-believing family it was rough at times, I didn't belong with kids of Orthodox Mormon families (unless they thought they could activate me), hope things are better now.
Nonmo here. Just hearing Fran talk about her bishops asking such inappropriate questions and seeking intimate details is so troubling. She was violated and yet a Bishop thinks he belongs to the Aaronic preisthood which ended in 710 AD. and this is part of his priestly duties? It's so incredible what goes on in the name of what? I just heard about this Exmo mantra, "What is unique about the church is not good, and what is good is not unique."
My mother is in her 70s. My father passed away, and she is unable to make a decision. She’s never lived alone, and she has no idea what makes her happy. She doesn’t have hobbies or friends and has no idea how to find them.
I love the conversation about women/mothers working. I am an Ex- Mormon that has always valued my career and pride myself on being able to bring home the bulk of our family's income. Growing up, most of the LDS women in my life had what I would call "throw away jobs". They had jobs that allowed them to make money when they didn't need to be home that didn't require a lot of education and they could easily quit when they needed to be home. I watched my own mother be forced to only have "throw away jobs" when all she ever wanted was a real job that would give her more purpose in her personal life. I love being a mother and I also love that I have worked incredibly hard to have a career and I hope that my daughter gets to see that happiness is easier when moms are stable and get to have a balance of being a mom and also being a human in the real world.
By chance I just listened to the Lila Tueller episodes. In part 2, she talks about how her father, Hartman Rector Jr, was involved in giving blessings to Fran's family when the roof fell in on the cabin.
Maybe because I had my first baby at 29. I just loved everything about being pregnant. I loved feeling the baby move in my tummy. I am sorry you felt you sometimes had the feeling like you hated the baby inside you. 😢 Super awesome that your husband encouraged you to finish your schooling. ❤
Excellent program. The Maggie John duo is great. One thing I notice is Ex-Mormons talk about Mormonism as if it’s the only church. I don’t think they realize that most churches aren’t like Mormonism. Most of these beliefs ie becoming a God are completely foreign even blasphemous to most of us. To me it’s a happy family sect not a church.
Mormon culture is different by city and state. Utah county, specifically Orem and Provo, are extreme and not the norm. Lehi, Highland, Draper, SLC, Park City, etc., are all more like the ‘norm’ within the state. Outside the state is different, still. I’ve lived in various cities in UT and outside the state, offering a variety of positive experiences.
I remember hearing about the tragedy with Fran's sister & grandmother. I believe they're buried at the same cemetery where my son is. I can't help but wonder if the reason so many former lifetime members of the church are no longer believers is because all of their spirituality is encompassed in the LDS church.....I had visited a few churches with friends before I joined at 18. When I left, my attention turned to finding God elsewhere. I did try to throw God out of my life at one point, but it didn't work for me. I am very glad to have found a relationship with God outside of organized religion.
My husband & I made a choice to move ourselves & our heathen children into his grandmother’s home (his childhood home) when she asked us to bc she couldn’t live alone anymore. Gramma was a devout Methodist and didn’t understand how you could raise kids with morals outside the church. We decided as the kids became toddlers that we’d opt for a secular humanist approach to life - love all, cause no harm. Then, after the kids spent a yr in this school district, we decided to homeschool, which she was very against, but the district didn’t fit their needs (we’re in rural Western NY where 8 families in our county homeschooled - all that focused around religion). Now no religion & they didn’t know the pledge to flag, so they were scandalous heathens by 8yo & 6yo. A couple of things we really wanted to instill in our kids was good & open communication, first between the four of us, and then out in the world. Also, we freely gave them respect and trust, we never thought either should be earned. The kids decided to go with gramma to church here and there, just for something to do, but it never stuck. And they went to churches and mosques with friends, but they just weren’t into it. Kid#1 learned to Google pretty early on & found out what bigotry was and how life for so many of in our family & their friends were persecuted in the name of religion so decided it wasn’t for them. Kid#2, he just found it boring then hopped on Kid#1’s bandwagon. When gramma died, Kid#1 was 15yo & wrote her a poem that they read at the memorial - it was solemn & beautiful & at one point mentioned masturbation - I really don’t remember the reference, but heathens be heathening that day. They’re both in their mid 20s now, are huge into politics and activism and fighting for all. They and their partners are all part of the LGBTQIA+ squad. They are proud of the amazing lives they’ve carved out for themselves and are really amazing, sarcastic, witty & smart people that I just adore completely. And they still hold fast to their morals religion didn’t need to teach them.
Hi i loved this one! I really identified with her experience with not want having more kids but then feeling so selfish for having had that thought. But then why isn't my happiness important? So do i matter or am i baby machine. Why is can considered a selfish thought to want to pursue a career while you raise kids. I do feel like a loss of identity. I loved her husband was able to do the laundry and do the not so typical man things and not to feel like his gender was compromised and neither was hers for studying. Thanks so much.
There are companies that sell health or beauty products that do not work as advertised. Like the LDS church with the Book of Mormon, the temples, doctrines, and covenants, ordinances and the endowment for salvation and the exaltation that it is different from the gospel. Although some members take God's affairs seriously, and read his word that is in the Bible and learn. What works are missionaries who convince vulnerable people to be baptized. This is how they attract members, and tithe ( 💰 💵 🤑 money!). Until people realize it, and leave the church. But new people will be convinced, and the cycle repeats=more new money. Sometimes I think that missionaries don't know what they are doing, or maybe they do. They work for a multi-billion dollar structured organization with leaders who are looking for money. The world is being ruled by money, recognition, power, fame, influence, ambition, greed, selfishness, envy, vanity, sex, addictions, drugs; and the church is not the exception because it is made up of human beings. Some people like to belong to a large, famous organization, so sometimes they allow themselves to be manipulated and believe what they are told. Others attend church to follow a traditional protocol or because they are taken by family. Some LDS Church leaders use in vain the name of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit to manipulate people with intensity, and thus maintain membership and tithing $. They want to manage the freewill, autonomy, and salvation/"exaltation" of people as if they were judges, and Gods. But God is everywhere, even in a small wooden church; and miracles can happen anywhere. Evil never triumphs, and the truth always comes to light! 🙏🏻
Fran is my niece. I am so happy that she found joy in this chaotic life.
She's very beautiful too!
@@jacoblewis2961she definitely has a beautiful spirit. I really enjoyed her talks and insights. Love the “choose your own adventure.” Also the compassion she used when speaking about the work of defense lawyers and those who need them.
@@juliannesmommy6694 no not just beautiful spirit, she's very physically attractive!
I Really like that Margie!!!!! She always brings your program up a notch John . more than other women with whom you may have cohosted with over time. Bar none. She brings an empathy and very big spirit of kindness to the mix. I feel like I could sit down with her and talk and listen to her for hours!
I agree, I just love Margie and feel such a deep admiration when she speaks.
I thought it was just me. She brings something unique to the show and conversations.
I feel the same way. Can she adopt me?? 😛
@@kellyhealy734I just want to sit around a shaman fire and hear some wisdom 😊
Oh my goodness yes! I love her wisdom, kindness, calming voice. She makes you feel like you’re getting your hair brushed by someone. If that makes sense.
I'm one of those never-Mormons who look forward to these conversations. I deconstructed from another religion, and hearing these stories makes me feel good on the inside.
Same. It’s helped my own deconstruction journey in ways I could never have imagined.
Intelligent in tune people who are doing their best to live an authentic and honest live. ❤️
"I'm terrified that I might never have met me." That's fire. 🔆🌻🔥💖
This hit profoundly.
man there’s nothing more validating and empathetic and calming and kind than a margi “that’s right.” that phrase means everything when it comes from her!
OK, long time listener here- The most influencal part of this discussion here was, " Mothers are not the sacrificial lambs of the FAMILY! I have been doing this even still after leaving the Mormon Church. I am still attempting to "unlearn what I have learned!" Love your podcast John! Thank You, and Margie for all of your sacrifices! I've am so grateful! ♥️🎻😎
After watching hundreds of episodes this is the episode that finally made me become a member of Mormon Stories. Thank you, Fran, for sharing your journey! I wish you all the best.
Loved this episode. And loved Margie in this! It really hit me in the feels when margie said what if happiness is not the point? What if the point is feeling more aligned with yourself? That’s such a powerful insight I never considered…. but it makes so much sense and spoke so much to me. I feel as mormons we are conditioned to always be on a wild goose chase for the happiness that is always almost in reach until something happens and takes you to a dark place of despair, because you are never going to be good enough. Thank you so much to margie and john and all the guests that have the courage to pour the most vulnerable part of themselves online. Thank you Fran
Yes, Margie asks great, great questions.
Thank you for your post.
Your quote from Margi and your observations about her contributions to MSP are SO spot on!❤🎉❤
Your guest is extremely well spoken, and her experiences are relatable. I’m so sorry you experienced such a catastrophic loss so young. My heart goes out to you, even years later! ❤😢
Thanks Fran! My SIL deconstructed alone in silence (non of us knew except my brother her husband) and I wish I could have been there for her. I love to hear stories like this so that I can make sure I'm actively showing her compassion and understanding. My deconstruction was not nearly as painful since I had had a long period of inactivity beforehand but she was fully in before she left. This was a top notch episode!
This is a great interview from what seems like a true introvert. No small talk here. All vulnerability and deep, feelings. Truly cathartic for her.
I was hanging onto every word. I could sympathize with so much of this, and being only 7 months into deconstruction and starting to feel so many things Fran described made me feel so at ease and validated. Thank you Fran!
❤❤ thank you so much for this comment. When I was in your stage of deconstruction it was so fresh and I felt so validated by Mormon Stories. I’m so happy my story could provide that for you 🥹
I respect that you said as a parent you will not keep your kids from joining the church and allow them their freedom…yet also that you will tell them of what the church will not tell them so they are thoroughly and intelligently INFORMED.
my family moved to Utah just over 2 years ago. we are non-denominational preterist christians living in a a heavily Mormon area. My son goes to school with many of these young boys and they confide in him the incredible pressure from the church. several do not believe in the church and yet feel that if they dont go on a mission after high school, that they will be ostracized. they seemingly hate the idea of going, but also feel trapped and like they dont have a choice. The girls he goes to school with are either incredibly flirtatious and desperate for a boy's attention or they are obsessively church oriented. its crazy to hear from my son what its like. these are GREAT kids. GREAT character and grounded, but they are struggling with the pressure to conform. some of his friends have already left on a mission and they all worry that when their friends return, they wont be the same.
The LDS church focuses its energy on money and conformity. there doesnt seem to be much that they gear towards a relationship with God. they celebrate Halloween MORE than Easter (the resurrection of the savior) and Christmas is downplayed. Its a strange area because they seem to be trying harder and harder to claim "Christianity" but you can tell that culturally this is more of an attempt to fool Christians into attending their church. Their faith is in their church. their faith is in Joseph Smith. so its a bit sad to watch...
I decided to go to law school as part of my deconstruction process too! I had gone into teaching, partially from a prompting, partially as a “mom job”, and it was so freeing to actually choose to be whatever I wanted to be.
One of the best podcasts I've seen on Mormon Stories! Well spoken, honest and sincere! If the church truly works for some people, great get after it. But for some of us it's painful and I don't fit in the box.
I love Fran’s vulnerability and transparency.
Another story about the tree falling on the family, Emma was my neighbor so I had my father (GA) come down and give her a blessing that she would be healed. (She wasn’t.) and that she would run and play again (she didn’t). This affected my faith negatively. I couldn’t understand how God wouldn’t want to heal her. She was like 5
So called apostolic blessings are a sham.
The dissonance is so painful and it's baked into the religion...
'Shelves' breaking are entirely to be expected and the cost for so many is deep ❤
Just wanted to say how much Margie brings to the conversations....so tactful but so insightful. She draws it to the depths of someone's experience and thet feel safe to share. ❤
I was working as a 911 dispatcher the day of this horrible tragedy. It has stayed with me my entire life since. I remember getting counseling debriefing together with some of the rescue workers. We wept and kept asking ourselves if there was more we could have done. I believe it really hit home to me because my brother died in an accident when I was 6 and so much of what you expressed here really hit me. Thank you so much for sharing.
My dad lived until he was 90 and right at the end of his life he expressed his sadness that he wouldn’t be able to live with my brother. When I asked him why (through tears) he felt that way he said that he “knew” he hadn’t lived his life perfectly and so that meant he couldn’t be with him. I spent the rest of the week he had left trying to convince him that my brother would be there to greet him. I’m not sure I convinced him. He lost his speech because of a stroke shortly after he told me how heartbroken he was that he felt he was going to be without him. My dad had quit going to church about 15 years before he died mostly due to health problems and caring for my mother who was bedridden. He never left her side but it had never occurred to me that because of his situation he thought he had lost the chance to see my brother after he died.
This is why I love Mormon Stories. I resonate with every single person you interview. So much of Fran’s story is similar to mine! I went back to nursing school during my deconstruction process and now I’m enjoying being able to support my family as a NICU nurse. I wish my husband would have responded as hers did, though. Mine still thinks I’m an apostate 😐
The 2 hosts are wonderful - they speak such sense, with a big dose of empathy and intelligence thrown in!
I love to hear .John wife she is so smart and sensitive
agreed, Margi is AMAZING and has such a soothing empathy.
Say her name, Margi!
I've listened to so many of episodes over the years and always learn something new from every guest. Fran, your insight regarding the "comfort" ability of the Holy Ghost was profound!
I loved this episode ❤. I cried for her loss of her sister. I related in so many levels. Thank you all for all you do. Your amazing!
My very best girl friend went back to work when her oldest was six months old because she realized she was purposely forgetting things at the grocery store just to get out of the house. It’s okay.
Thank you Margie for helping us get to the questions we want to know. You have a gift!
I’m a never-mormon and have been watching MSP for the past few years to listen and learn through people’s stories. Listening has had a profound impact on my life- I’m consistently moved by the insights that come from those inside and out of high demand religions. I especially appreciate Margi’s emotional intelligence in episodes where she’s a co-host ❤ Thank you both for all you do!
1:16:49 “I must be something less.” I loved the way she explained that.
“Looking for someone else to tell me what to do.” Yes! That hits.
Such a fantastic episode! I love the perspective that both Margi and John bring to each interview.
This is lovely. And Margie. She is just so incredible as a co host.
This girl is so beautiful& watching her shake through the entire interview from the trauma these people put her through- is endearing to see. I just wish I could give her a hug right now!
Hang in there there. Life gets better once u know who YOU REALLY are. And that’s the fun part
Hubby and I have been out of the church for 6 years and are still deconstructing. Your point of not trusting yourself, nor being viewed as valuable as a man (due to being a woman) is a huge hurdle. When Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling pointed out that Smith's mother signed an affidavit statement saying something to the effect of not hearing about the first vision for years after it supposedly happened, I knew I had been lied to. It takes years to shake off all the ingrained 'isms' and reestablish who you are and where you belong. It can be painful but so freeing. And it is SO very important. Thanks for sharing your story.
Thanks! This episode was awesome. Fran reminds me of my wife and her sister. I’m struggling with a faith crisis but my wife is still fully in.
Never-Mormon here, I LOVED this interview ... Thank you to the 3 of you! So relatable, human to human
It’s a beautiful episode.
I could listen to Margie all day every day. Her comments are always so insightful.
Learning that you’re actually smart when you 30…yeah that’s me at 34.
Lacking identity, not knowing yourself, seeking validation from every other outside source. Fran said that very well. I haven’t been able to articulate that quite as well!
Relationship phases, expecting change and rolling with it. I love that. Awesome tattoo!!
Thank you for your story Fran!
I can’t believe that I ever thought it was ok for any child to be interrogated by a bishop who they don’t know and then to be asked such intimate questions.. at 12 years old that’s SA!! That’s above and beyond inappropriate!!!
💯me too!!! I still scratch my head that I allowed it and even engaged it!!! I’m embarrassed and some what ashamed that I didn’t protect my children more. But, when you’re in you’re in…and you honestly before you’re doing the right thing
It's because we all assumed each Bishop or Stake President was an honorable decent person who truly loved their "flock". I raised three daughters in the church and cringe to hear some of the stories they tell me about Bishop interviews and that I never even considered would be problematic.
It is absolutely a charge of Sexual Interference, rather than Assault, IMO. No way is it not criminal considering the power imbalance between a church official and a minor (a 12 year old at that!), but the child is without a parent, stuck there. What a feeling of not being protected and abandonment, shame, embarrassment, and bewilderment (ie) when the child didn’t at first know what masturbation even was. It doesn’t matter what the bishops’ intentions even were. It’s criminal by the laws where I live, but I don’t specifically know about Utah. I DO know it is gross. All of the adults need to do better!!!!
@@parrishthethoughtpodcast368 You did the best with what you knew at the time, I’m sure. ♥️
@@utuberhoda100%. We “knew” what we “knew” and did the best we could with the info. It’s cringy now but made sense then.
We learn new things and do better.
Man teary eyed from the start and seeing maternal loving angelic Margie get teary just reaffirmed to me she is absolutely the best cohost. Love this episode so much. Such a beautiful story ❤
Kim Wexler vibes in all the best ways!
Congrats on the career, making it through the mist of darkness and finding your courage. Such a great story.
Another lovely interview by all involved. Thank you!
Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I have similar feelings and it feels so validating
Fran!!!! Who would've thought that two U of U court women would have appearances on mormon stories! I'm so excited to listen to this and wish you all the best. Sending love to you and your beautiful family! Thanks for supporting me in my hard times during those court years. Louisa Killian (Rankin)
Love you Margie! ❤ Really great insights today on grief.
Great interview/conversation as always! She is a strong woman with much courage!
Being turned away publicly at the altar for being a divorced woman shamed me & humiliated me. Asking for help for baby sitters as I was a single mom holding down two jobs & buying our home. No one trusted me as a single woman being looked upon as 'loose'. Many years later I went to Vatican City I was shocked at the many businesses & realised it was a business. The abuse claims that were hidden. Priests moved onto to do it again in another area. Children blamed for encouraging the abuse. It all screwed with my mind I had to get away. At 63 I'm still working through the grief etc.. These stories help us all in one way or another. Thankyou both ❤
I relate to her story SO much! I haven't finished it yet, but this is a great episode.
I’m an escapee from a religious cult but not Mormonism and love these posts. They are really enlightening, healing and educational for me. It has helped my deconstruction enormously. It’s a whole other language!
I was concerned about a comment John made;was he saying her parents would grieve more for Molly than Fran? Or did I misunderstand? Everyone grieves differently. None is worse than the other. I cannot imagine being 8 and suddenly having a room to myself and no more room mate and giggles in bed.
Nevermo here too. As I understand it 'Molly' or 'Molly Mormon' is a common phrase amongst (ex-)mormons for a woman who is a full believing member of the LDS faith. So parents grieving more for Molly is a way to explain how believing parents sometimes care more for faithful children than for ex-mormons such as Fran.
I'm a never-Mormon, but grew up in a high-demand religion context. This is one of my fave episodes ever!
I’m the exact same with parenting. Love newborn stage. Love working. Love sending my three year old to daycare to learn from people that love that stage. ❤
Love this episode! Fran is such a lovely soul.
I broke into tears watching Marggie break into full tears listening to the loss of the family in that freak tree accident. Heartbreaking 😢
Important to remember - you don’t have to have a job to find yourself! But I agree moms need to find their passion. But it doesn’t have to be working/daycare/away from home. It can. But it looks different for everyone. I am a stay at home mom and I do A LOT with my kids or even by myself at home. Let’s not make stay at homes feel like they’re are missing their calling. It works both ways.
Hey this is Fran! If there was one thing looking back that I would’ve liked to clarify in my interview it is your exact point. That for many women there is so much passion and joy to be found in being a stay at home mom! And even then it should be with the mindset that you are choosing it and it’s not forced upon you. It’s very likely that many women will fit very happily and comfortably in a traditional model, but it should be by choice ❤
Thanks for sharing your story!
Margi is glowing 😊
Always!
I'm a recovering evangelical and the discussion about being a disappointment no matter how good you are hits pretty hard. I feel like that finally put a label on the feeling at least one of my sisters and me have. Maybe it would feel like that even if she weren't a xtian, but it sure feels like it's only because we don't share her faith anymore.
Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing your story ❤
Would love to see Susan Bednar react to watching and processing this full episode.
🤣🤣🤣
Thank you for sharing! ❤
Thanks for watching!
I’ve listen to hundreds of these episodes. This by far was my favorite episode. 🖤
So her bishop forgave her, and she felt the Spirit telling her she was forgiven, and then her bishop changed his mind? That would be confusing.
I felt so sick that he KEPT thinking about her "situation". 🤮
It’s occurred to me that this box the church puts people in can also be a stressful burden on men too. Knowing they are the sole provider for the family and if for any reason they can’t, would possibly feel a lot of fear and shame. Wouldn’t it be nice if partners could move out of societal norms and progress and work together wherever necessary.
A family member of mine went through so much anxiety about his future as a breadwinner that he required counseling for it when he was still a child. It’s so much pressure.
💯
As a never Mormon I feel I know more about, the cult of Mormonism, from the inside and outside. I know more than the people I know and love that were converted to or raised in that Cult.
Margie is the heart and soul of this show. Her crying at the guests sad tragedy with such empathy. The show is so much better with Margie. She is such an empathetic caring woman.
I always love a Margi and John MSP. ❤
Wonderful story! I grew up in Orem and later we raised our kids for many years in Orem as active Mormons. It is wonderful if you are Mormon. As a child of an inactive non-believing family it was rough at times, I didn't belong with kids of Orthodox Mormon families (unless they thought they could activate me), hope things are better now.
Nonmo here. Just hearing Fran talk about her bishops asking such inappropriate questions and seeking intimate details is so troubling. She was violated and yet a Bishop thinks he belongs to the Aaronic preisthood which ended in 710 AD. and this is part of his priestly duties? It's so incredible what goes on in the name of what? I just heard about this Exmo mantra, "What is unique about the church is not good, and what is good is not unique."
I resonated with so many things she shared.
Listening to how these men ask young women about personal intimate details is infuriating. That is evil.
My mother is in her 70s. My father passed away, and she is unable to make a decision. She’s never lived alone, and she has no idea what makes her happy. She doesn’t have hobbies or friends and has no idea how to find them.
How anyone can think it is appropriate for a grown man to be alone with a 12 year old and ask if they masturbate is beyond me.
I love Margie so much. She’s such a beautiful person.❤
Thanks!
I love the conversation about women/mothers working. I am an Ex- Mormon that has always valued my career and pride myself on being able to bring home the bulk of our family's income. Growing up, most of the LDS women in my life had what I would call "throw away jobs". They had jobs that allowed them to make money when they didn't need to be home that didn't require a lot of education and they could easily quit when they needed to be home. I watched my own mother be forced to only have "throw away jobs" when all she ever wanted was a real job that would give her more purpose in her personal life. I love being a mother and I also love that I have worked incredibly hard to have a career and I hope that my daughter gets to see that happiness is easier when moms are stable and get to have a balance of being a mom and also being a human in the real world.
I live in Orem and it’s much less Lds now. Still heavy lds but not as much as the past
Wonderful episode. ❤❤
I'm a donor and I'm happy whatever you decide to do. Most YT channels have some kind of brand sponsorship or ads. No reason why you shouldn't.. x
By chance I just listened to the Lila Tueller episodes. In part 2, she talks about how her father, Hartman Rector Jr, was involved in giving blessings to Fran's family when the roof fell in on the cabin.
Love love love love love love
I can relate so much to her.
It isn't selfishness Fran - it is freedom. "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free."
" ...the giving tree gives everything and ends up a stump, basically." That was a funny remark, John! 😂🎉
Maybe because I had my first baby at 29. I just loved everything about being pregnant. I loved feeling the baby move in my tummy. I am sorry you felt you sometimes had the feeling like you hated the baby inside you. 😢
Super awesome that your husband encouraged you to finish your schooling. ❤
I remember the South Fork park incident. Very sad ❤
Excellent program. The Maggie John duo is great. One thing I notice is Ex-Mormons talk about Mormonism as if it’s the only church. I don’t think they realize that most churches aren’t like Mormonism. Most of these beliefs ie becoming a God are completely foreign even blasphemous to most of us. To me it’s a happy family sect not a church.
I'm adding the following into my rotation, “Cs get degrees” and “flirt to convert.” How have I gone for so long without hearing these things?
Mormon culture is different by city and state. Utah county, specifically Orem and Provo, are extreme and not the norm. Lehi, Highland, Draper, SLC, Park City, etc., are all more like the ‘norm’ within the state. Outside the state is different, still. I’ve lived in various cities in UT and outside the state, offering a variety of positive experiences.
That Bishop totally introduced her to it. How disgusting he could have just moved on or not ask that question at all! wow
I remember hearing about the tragedy with Fran's sister & grandmother. I believe they're buried at the same cemetery where my son is. I can't help but wonder if the reason so many former lifetime members of the church are no longer believers is because all of their spirituality is encompassed in the LDS church.....I had visited a few churches with friends before I joined at 18. When I left, my attention turned to finding God elsewhere. I did try to throw God out of my life at one point, but it didn't work for me. I am very glad to have found a relationship with God outside of organized religion.
You can leave Mormonism and still have faith in Jesus. I’m an ex Mormon and still have faith in Jesus.
1:14:59 Women in the church REALLY need to understand this!!! Truly!!
My husband & I made a choice to move ourselves & our heathen children into his grandmother’s home (his childhood home) when she asked us to bc she couldn’t live alone anymore. Gramma was a devout Methodist and didn’t understand how you could raise kids with morals outside the church. We decided as the kids became toddlers that we’d opt for a secular humanist approach to life - love all, cause no harm. Then, after the kids spent a yr in this school district, we decided to homeschool, which she was very against, but the district didn’t fit their needs (we’re in rural Western NY where 8 families in our county homeschooled - all that focused around religion). Now no religion & they didn’t know the pledge to flag, so they were scandalous heathens by 8yo & 6yo. A couple of things we really wanted to instill in our kids was good & open communication, first between the four of us, and then out in the world. Also, we freely gave them respect and trust, we never thought either should be earned.
The kids decided to go with gramma to church here and there, just for something to do, but it never stuck. And they went to churches and mosques with friends, but they just weren’t into it. Kid#1 learned to Google pretty early on & found out what bigotry was and how life for so many of in our family & their friends were persecuted in the name of religion so decided it wasn’t for them. Kid#2, he just found it boring then hopped on Kid#1’s bandwagon. When gramma died, Kid#1 was 15yo & wrote her a poem that they read at the memorial - it was solemn & beautiful & at one point mentioned masturbation - I really don’t remember the reference, but heathens be heathening that day.
They’re both in their mid 20s now, are huge into politics and activism and fighting for all. They and their partners are all part of the LGBTQIA+ squad. They are proud of the amazing lives they’ve carved out for themselves and are really amazing, sarcastic, witty & smart people that I just adore completely. And they still hold fast to their morals religion didn’t need to teach them.
Hi i loved this one! I really identified with her experience with not want having more kids but then feeling so selfish for having had that thought. But then why isn't my happiness important? So do i matter or am i baby machine. Why is can considered a selfish thought to want to pursue a career while you raise kids. I do feel like a loss of identity. I loved her husband was able to do the laundry and do the not so typical man things and not to feel like his gender was compromised and neither was hers for studying. Thanks so much.
That was really nice of the singles ward members to help out like that.
There are companies that sell health or beauty products that do not work as advertised.
Like the LDS church with the Book of Mormon, the temples, doctrines, and covenants, ordinances and the endowment for salvation and the exaltation that it is different from the gospel. Although some members take God's affairs seriously, and read his word that is in the Bible and learn.
What works are missionaries who convince vulnerable people to be baptized. This is how they attract members, and tithe ( 💰 💵 🤑 money!). Until people realize it, and leave the church. But new people will be convinced, and the cycle repeats=more new money.
Sometimes I think that missionaries don't know what they are doing, or maybe they do. They work for a multi-billion dollar structured organization with leaders who are looking for money.
The world is being ruled by money, recognition, power, fame, influence, ambition, greed, selfishness, envy, vanity, sex, addictions, drugs; and the church is not the exception because it is made up of human beings.
Some people like to belong to a large, famous organization, so sometimes they allow themselves to be manipulated and believe what they are told. Others attend church to follow a traditional protocol or because they are taken by family.
Some LDS Church leaders use in vain the name of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit to manipulate people with intensity, and thus maintain membership and tithing $. They want to manage the freewill, autonomy, and salvation/"exaltation" of people as if they were judges, and Gods.
But God is everywhere, even in a small wooden church; and miracles can happen anywhere.
Evil never triumphs, and the truth always comes to light! 🙏🏻
Margi, I HAVE to know your skin care routine and what foundation you use! You are so beautiful inside and out!
I was going to ask about her skin care routine before she consistently glows ( so hydrated and moistured).
Lol. Thank goodness for the LDS Church. Without it we wouldn't have any dentists.
S0 right!!! Nor would we have 'Wisdom Teeth Only Dentists'
😂
🤣🤣🤣
Great story of being present in today