I was told as a young women at 12 years old that as weary I was about not wanting to live a polygamous life,that my heart would be softened in the afterlife to the idea of a polygamous marriage 😢 this was not comforting one bit to me
Yep Same here! The big question I hear constantly in Utah is "What's your posterity number"? Its all about Quantity not Quality! Im one of 21, born & conditioned LD$, a child bride as was my grandmothers before me, but I broke the mold and Im OUT ! Had my name and Auschwitz number removed from LD$
I was told that too in seminary when I confronted my teacher (who I actually respected) about this. We were assured that some of the (polygamous) women even grew to love polygamy and wrote about it in their journals. I didn’t care if it was done in Biblical times, and I didn’t care who wrote what (people will believe all sorts of things, especially if they have Stockholm syndrome). Polygamy is not of God. So grateful my parents hated it. We’ve all left the church now, and feel closer to God.
In the discussion about including the first wives in the "choice" to live plural marriage, I was reminded of this quote. "In 1882, Phebe Woodruff, first wife among seven to Wilford Woodruff, fourth president of the Church, speaking at a mass meeting of Mormon women held in defense of polygamy, said: "If I am proud of anything in this world, it is that I accepted the principle of plural marriage, and remained among the people called Mormons and am numbered with them today. However, a few days later a long time friend asked: How is it Sister Woodruff that you have changed your views so suddenly about polygamy? I thought you hated and loathed the institution. Phebe responded: I have not changed. I loathe the unclean thing with all the strength of my nature, but Sister, I have suffered all that a woman can endure. I am old and helpless, and would rather stand up anywhere, and say anything commanded of me, than to be turned out of my home in my old age which I should most assuredly if I refused to obey counsel." -Van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy, p101
This illustrates the exploitation women existed under historically .. not to mention all of these women who were asked to marry men they didn’t know. They couldn’t say no because not only did it risk their social standing but their own salvation. Imagine having to let someone rape your body for the rest of your life so you can get into heaven? As a teenager I said to myself I would rather go to hell than believe in a god who would let that happen to women.
That is heartbreaking. I feel so much hatred towards Smith. I know hate is wrong, I get that, but the things he put women through young girls and older women like Woodruff. These disgusting men are hanging with Satan now
"I was so horrified by eternal polygamy - something I didn't really know about until I was an adult and engaged to be married - that I briefly considered not getting married at all, or at least, not in the temple. There were a few nights I cried myself to sleep. Our legacy of polygamy invites doubt. Not just doubt in God, but doubt in the safety and stability of our most private, precious relationships. It suggests to women that what amounts to deep betrayal may come to us at any moment, and that our feelings of anguish would be yet another sacrifice on the altar of devotion.” -The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, Other Voices, page 53
Its not doubt about that divine source, about your own connection to the divine, rather, it's your doubt in the institution created around, abd even above, that devine source, the god of all
this is helping me realize my coertion was assault. yes, my anxiety is high, but it's nice to put a name to it. Thank you, mormon story for almost you do.
This was a huge problem for me growing up. My mother was widowed at 45 years old with 10 children at home. She would not even consider dating another man because she was already sealed to the love of her life.
My husband is mormon, and I joined the church because he was having some real hedonistic. Fish's issues, and I could see that our marriage was on the rocks if I did not do something. So I joined the church and I asked a lot of questions. And of course, he's very guarded, unanswering them, and I hit on the polygamy thang immediately, and he said that there were not enough husbands for the women, so this is how they manage to take care of them. Of course, this was absolutely wrong later. I found out and then I was asked about when we were gonna get married in the church in the temple and I said my husband is already sealed to his first wife. I have no desire to be a second wife in heaven. That statement was met with silence and a stare, and then nothing more was said.
You're very lucky. My mom was opposite and each time she married she gained more drama & kids. Her last husband had 11 kids from one marraige by then my mom had 10 of her own. They taught us Quantity over Quality. I was conditioned from day one to accept that my husband will marry/be sealed to other women. It's never changed. Now in 2024 My brother was just married to his 3rd wife in a mormonTemple. When they die they will continue with spirit babies!! lmao
First time viewer ex-mormon here. I was unsure of what this podcast was in terms of pro-con perspective. I will be back because I appreciate the acknowledgement of verifiable truth without the vitriol so many of us feel towards the church, and the open-minded tone.
Really appreciate you guys shining some light on this. I’ve left the church and my husband considers himself inactive. We have a very happy marriage with an amazing two-year-old girl, and hope for more kids. I consider myself non-denominational Christian now, and have been on the fence about letting my daughter investigate the Mormon church someday. We’re Utahn with pioneer blood so I’m sure it will happen. I do think there’s a lot of good in the church and will eventually support her making her own decisions on religious practice, but this changes my willingness to let her in while she’s young. I’ll support her if she chooses to join later, but not before she knows her true value and has all the facts. Thanks again for forcing transparency!
Every time politics changes so will their scriptures. LD$ is the best business in town & nothing more than political, financial, power & control. They don't realize they are so transparent that any predator can track down these influencer's kids. The RubyFrankie's & Nelsons promote abuse from children to women. U2b should also be responsible for allowing that content !!
LD$ in Utah - My G-gma was14 yrs old, Gma, 17, momma18 yrs, myself 16 yrs old when I had a son. 5 living generations is Shameful and a first clue of abuse !!
Listening to this, I am reminded of Elissa Wall, who was told to 'go with her heart' by one prophet, and then told her heart was 'wrong' by the next prophet. And all the abuse and pain she suffered as a result. Also Ada Marie Draper, who was married at 16, and 'punished' by her husband (Warren Jeffs) by being withheld pregnancy. And I keep coming back to the realisation that they were CHILDREN. Then I get so angry.
"As a single mother I raised my children in the church and supported my two sons on missions. My oldest son, who all of his life has been an active, worthy member of the church, is married to a wonderful woman who was widowed (while pregnant) at age twenty-one. They now have two children together, who are not sealed to their own father but to a man they don't know. My son's heart aches to be a part of the eternal family that he was always promised by the church he believes in. He now feels his mission was wasted by teaching people they could be with their families forever. He can't, and for no fault of his own." -The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, Other Voices, page 99
Technically they could all be in the celestial kingdom, but he can't be in the top level because he's not sealed, unless God resolves the situation somehow. I'm not sure what that would mean for their togetherness.
In my opinion if we are all brothers and sisters, Joseph said this at the beginning of all his sermons. Brothers and sisters, how much closer can you get to people than Brothers and sisters? still they're not sealed husbands and wives doesn't matter if we're all connected in the hereafter if we are already connected. I believe the only person we need to be sealed with by our hearts is to Jesus Christ and God the eternal father. God bless.
Tell your dear son to start investigating the NDE ers. Those who died for a minute, or longer,abd were brEN in their MANmade institutions who made a god in their own image!!!!!
"In our premortal life we had moral agency. One purpose of earth life is to show what choices we will make. If we were *forced* to choose the right, we would not be able to show what we would choose for ourselves." -Gospel Principles, Ch 4. "During the third and final appearance, the angel came with a drawn sword, threatening Joseph with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the commandment fully." -Plural Marriage in Kirtland & Nauvoo, Gospel Topics Essay
That was brilliant - and you quoted Bluey, such discernment strengthens your credibility. This episode has highlighted this dilemma, should I let my 95 year old fully physically and mentally active mother know about the coercion she has lived under her whole life? And why did god create male and female in a more or less one to one ratio?
I got the bad touch during the washing/anointing in the temple. Glad they changed it the next year so my siblings didn't get it--but they also don't believe me when I explain how it used to be.
Yes John, this was also true for my great grandmother's in plural marriage. My grandfather was also constantly sent in Missions throughout Utah, teaching people how to farm. He died of heatstroke, leaving all three wives and the children destitute.
1:03:45 The ridiculous & oppressive thing here is that the church forces polygamy on women who remarry. When the husband was previously sealed, a cancellation is rarely requested and even more rarely given. As an illustration, my husband is still sealed to his ex wife even though I got my sealing cancelled and got sealed to him. He’s chosen in this life not to be with her, but in eternity, I become second wife to her even though I’m his chosen partner. It’s horrific and brutal, but rather than change it, the church serves up platitudes like, “God won’t make you be with someone you don’t want to be with,” while forcing you to remain connected here on earth.
I had nightmares all the years of my married Mormon life that polygamy was being re-instituted and my husband had been assigned new wives. I would wake up emotionally crushed and furious. And my poor faithful husband would say things like, “I only want to be married to you. But I always try to obey what God commands.” Not exactly comforting. I am so grateful we no longer believe in that traumatic doctrine.
Everyone of those disorder that Natasha talks about, I have due to sexual assault, religious trauma !! My life is a mess!! I really enjoyed this I live in Belize we wish we could send a million $$$ hope those who can, will support this is such a big help!!
Such a great analysis of how problematic this lesson is! Thank you. Also I’m dying that the family lesson will be the week before Thanksgiving. Hope it doesn’t cause strife around the extended family dinner tables😢
“How could this (abuse) have happened when this person has the priesthood authority and was called? ….They’re going to have to admit that they make mistakes….until they can do that we are going consistently be in that place of coercion”. Brilliant.
How can anyone seriously ask that question? We have very publicly documented cases of bishops and bishopric members arrested for involvement in sex trafficking rings. There was at least one in Salt Lake City and one in Florida if my memory serves accurately. And I believe another case in Colorado. And we've certainly had enough well-documented cases of ordinary church members being very publicly caught in extremely graphic and disgustingly horrendous sexual abuse of their own children. That doesn't begin to cover all those never caught, those abusing children other than their own, or all those engaged in physical emotional, verbal and psychological abuse. And the church never brings up wife abuse when discussing abuse. It's kind of vanished as a thing. I know people keep saying abuse rates in the church are the same as for the general population (church authorities have stated this in conference talks I've heard in real time), but I really wonder. Virtually every child I grew up with in the church was being abused in some way, and abuse has been exceedingly common in every ward I've ever lived in. Personally, I believe it's just enormously under reported. I believe there are many aspects of the church that foster abuse.
Plural marriage brings blessings to those who follow the Lord's commandments, the same way blessings are brought to those who pay tithing REGARDLESS of their financial situation. These types of ordinances and commandments really ONLY benefit the church, then maybe the wealthy who believe. The rest, the majority of its followers suffered, waiting for blessings and believed the crumbs they were tossed were blessings. HOWEVER, if you choose to think of your family, your children, or yourself in these situations, ESPECIALLY back then, if you questioned or denied then if for example your child got gravely sick or DIED you are shamed relentlessly and live a life of guilt or shame. It's a VICIOUS abuse cycle that has gone on for GENERATIONS throughout the church. Unnecessary and unfortunate pain and trauma that continues to be passed on. 💔
Thank you so much for your coverage of this topic! This was a very thoughtful analysis. My first thought when reading this children’s story about plural marriage a few days ago when the news broke, was that it sounded like grooming. With the church developing children’s stories like these, it doesn’t surprise me we get mission presidents who have pressured sister missionaries to engage in polygamy with them and become their plural wives. I’m glad that you brought up this very point John! I have been thinking about this the last few days. This church teaches men that they can do whatever the hell they want and claim it is of God. & women have to obey their male leaders (keep sweet, pray and obey).
This podcast has been a great resource to see different arguments and modes of thought. Crazy to think that besides a mission, I've encountered little divergent thought besides my own that was almost always met with fear and apologetics. Current member that looks forward to information changing minds.
Ts 44:15 "Lest ye be destroyed" Fear based religion. The 2nd coming is soon- has been taught hundreds of years. Your husband may need multiple wives, You may not. Pay your tithes & LD$ will always have your back (Not) The mind manipulation I accepted for decades as a temple mormon will forever haunt me. I wrote & had my name & number removed (welcome back any time for rebaptism) Leaving the fear & oppression was Amazing !
I really appreciate the professionalism of the panel in this episode. And this is another example of the Church being sneaky and just slipping this story into their website.
I went through the Come Follow Me manual for 2025. The weeks that live Sunday School occurs (first and third Sundays) does not include polygamy. That is done for home study during the off weeks where members are to go through lessons on their own. The church did the same thing four years ago when we studied Doctrine and Covenants.
And that's for the adults. The teens and kids usually still learn from that manual on the 2nd and 4th weeks. So they can indoctrinate the kids and not allow the adults to actually learn and discuss it.... in my opinion that's pretty slimy.
I am so glad i got out last year, and not needing to have this conversation with my kids. I would have to look at my little 7 year old and tell her that god basically values boys more. Thank you and Mike for helping me find data that changed my life.
I’m not sure if anyone has pointed it out, but the way this kid’s version of polygamy was taught is pretty much exactly how it was taught to me all my years in the church. Just as simplistic and dishonest.
It's grooming in the way of normalizing/indocrinating obedience, to do something your leader tells you too, even if it's hard or doesn't feel right. And then allowing them to be put in compromising positions with leaders.
I think it is a generalized grooming. Say you’re a primary kid reading this story and you come to believe the message that you should do what your church leaders say even if it feels wrong or makes you uncomfortable? That really sets the stage for accepting abuse as a natural byproduct of faithful obedience. I can just imagine a creepy primary teacher reading this to children to lay the groundwork of their own abuse.
If a teenager doesn't want the bishop to ask them invasive questions, they absolutely wouldn't want those questions asked when their parent is present. The teen has no way of knowing if the bishop will ask less invasive questions or ask the exact same ones with their parent in the room. And if the bishop asks "have you had sex" and the teen doesn't want to answer, the parent, who likely considers sexual sin as next to murder as the church teaches, will be like "well??? answer the question!" That is not a solution.
At least it does make it more difficult for the priesthood leader to ask anything extra, probing, and absolutely no touching. It would help a little, but not a complete solution.
Sexual misconduct and criminality exist in every organization, secular and religious alike. Sexual predators must be exposed and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Because of the long standing size of the Catholic Church, our bishops under the direction of the pope have had to develop measures to deal with the problem across the board. It is not any easy task but very necessary. So the LDS Church is by no means “alone” in this area of discipline. God bless! ❤❤❤😊😊😊
I don’t know if this is helpful but I will offer it anyway. As a Catholic Christian I can testify that the Catholic Church has always rejected the practice of polygamy as lawful for believers. This rejection is founded in the explicit words of Christ in the New Testament that marriage is an indissoluble union between one man and one woman for life. The Israelite patriarchs and kings of the Old Covenant did sometimes practice polygamy, but it was never something God approved of. In fact, polygamy in the Old Testament is often problematic and resulted in apostasy from the faith over time. Of course, the Catholic Church has always rejected the claims of Joseph Smith outright. Just saying… 😊😊😊❤❤❤ Catechism of the Catholic Church 1601-1624.
I never understood and still don’t understand why? I was told it was to raise a righteous generation…what? It never made sense, only to control women and to put them against each other for a space at the top of a hierarchy.
“At the resurrection (of the dead) they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven.” Jesus Christ, Matthew 22: 30. New American Bible. Doctrinal Point: There is no such thing as celestial marriage. 😊😊😊❤❤❤
The apologist will say he never had sexual relationships with all his other wives. I personally think he did, and that polygamy now and then is for the guy to have more sex and more control. What evidence do you have showing he was sexually active with the other wives?
This is the most powerful Mormon stories episode that I've EVER heard. There are no ifs or buts about it. Plenty of ands because there will always be something to add with the Mormon church 🫰🔥
Most churches see Jesus as telling you the way, love your neighbor, help the poor etc. See Howard Thurman, “Jesus and the Disinherited. “ The Old Testament is seen as that, old laws are not hit over your head. Jesus is seen as coming to bring the new law, and issue a new Commandment to love one another.
I was told if I wanted a temple cancellation or divorce that it would brake my own children’s Sealing to me even tho my children were not sealed to him but were born under the covenant (years after we were divorced) so therefore I did not go thru with the cancellation. Also my Bishop was a total jerk and acted like I was the one at fault even though he was mentally and physically abusive, my Bishop stood up for him and told me that I needed to work more on forgiveness of him. Its all BS and I was so young naive at the time to dispute it.
I feel like this is a way the church could be planting things to start normalizing or prepare the next generation for some very different kinds of policies such as allowing gay marriage. I think this is just a way to help condition children and as they grow into adults to accept more radical things
kids should not be learning about any of this. maybe they could incorporate this in a sunday school class for kids 12 and up. we learned so many topics like nephi killing laben and alma the younger and so many things that arent child appropriate. the last thing these kids need to learn is about polygamy im sorry there is a better age range for informed consent.
I’m curious if the LDS church would have glossed over this doctrine in the video and never mentioned it if Dehlin would have made a video of how the Mormon church hides what they truly believe. And then when they are transparent then Dehlin will find a way to describe that transparency as “sneaky”so as to be able to point to this transparency as the church’s out that they aren’t hiding, “see we put this in the video years ago, so you can’t say we weren’t transparent” Man ya can’t win with Dehlin
I got to dislike most religions I mean organised religion because all I can see hypocrisy I believe in all moral values that makes a community run fairly. Born Catholic and never had bad experiences. Then I really didn’t believe in fairy tales
As far as God commanding polygamy in the OT. There are two things that I can remember that are not God *commanding* polygamy per se, but absolutely demonstrate that God was not, at the time of writing, seen as commanding 100% monogamy only. One is the case where a man's brother dies without having any kids. He has a duty to his dead brother to impregnate his sister in law, so that his brother's line can continue through her. Onan was smited for pulling out rather than giving his dead brother offspring who could inherit and the duty to impregnate her was passed on to another man in the family. There is no exception for being already married and the living brother would also have expected to have HIS own offspring that could inherit HIS stuff, presumably with his own wife. The other case is God talking to David in 2 Samuel 12, and says that he gave David everything that had been Saul's, including Saul's wives. God is not angry at David for *having* more than one wife, he's angry at David for being so greedy that he *took* another man's wife (and killed the guy to do so.) It's 1) not a prophet thing and 2) not a commandment to have multiple wives (one is giving your dead brother offspring, the other is a gift rather than a command) but neither is God particularly put off by the concept of one man having sex with multiple women. Prophets' wives don't come up much at all, IF at all, IIRC. By the time of the prophets, the lineages the Bible cares about are connected to the throne, especially David's dynasty.
In descriptive terms notions of marriageable age have varied across time and space. Puberty has often been seen as a key moment here Polygeny, of course, has been, descriptively speaking, one form of human marriage systems. There are, as you know, others. As for normative conceptions of these issues, they too have varied across time and space. I prefer to ground the normative in descriptive reality and an understanding that these issues have often varies across space and time…It is called SOCIALISATION. EVERYONE DOES IT.
How about we ground the conversation in the specific time and place it was introduced and practiced? Grown men were not marrying 14 year old girls or taking on dozens of wives in 19th century America. It was culturally and legally forbidden. Regular men were not marrying other men’s wives or marrying mother-daughter pairs in the 1840’s in New England. I don’t think it serves a useful purpose to act like we need to take into account the entirety of world history to decide if barely pubescent girls should be coerced into sexual relationships with a grown men in entirely asymmetrical power dynamic.
Over & over again in the scriptures God tells us to have 1 wife, 1 husband & how sacred our marriage covenants are! How can ANYONE believe the filthiness of polygamy and having sex with so many women be sacred! When Joseph says he had this revelation about polygamy he is calling God a hypocrite! I do not believe God is a hypocrite! It says in scripture his laws are the same forever never changing so why would he change this law? Why would he TEACH monogamy & then turn around & say it's OK for polygamy? That is deceitful, misguided. I know my God teaches isn't deceptive like that.
I have a strong dislike for the leaders of the church, however, I have mixed feelings on this. We are becoming more and more accepting of non traditional relationships such as same sex relationships, polyamorous relationships, etc.; so I don't have a problem with polygamy, per se. However, when it is forces upon women as in the FLDS Church or when boys become superfluous to a community and are abandoned, I think it's dreadful. If 3 or more people want to enter into a relationship of their own accord, more power to you. (BTW, I am gay and in a same sex relationship, if that matters.)
This seems to be a case of hearing only what you want to hear. There are many things worth debating or pointing a finger about any church and it's members. I agree with that. However, This one seems desperate for today's LDS church finger pointers. Suggesting the LDS church is "teaching Polygamy" to children? Step back and see the whole picture on this one in today's LDS church. If you have two wives at the same time, you can't be a member of the church. If you are a member, and try this, you are more than likely to be excommunicated. So trying to suggest that the church is teaching it's youth to engage in active polygamy is just not true. I also just don't understand the need to try to poke holes in an institution striving to help people better their lives such as a church. Putting energy and effort in to something like this is difficult for me to understand. Especially when there are so many real causes that could make a real difference if you put your energy into them. There are very impactful groups helping get people out of drug addictions, helping heal broken homes, finding homes for parentless children etc. (I might add the LDS church helps in these areas too). You can debate which groups are more impactful in their outcome but at that point are we not just being petty? If you are very concerned about the plural marriage situation in America, then you should be equally or more concerned about other "Morality" issues in America. Look at our culture today and if your biggest concern is that the LDS church could secretly be teaching youth to grow up and be polygamists, then you live under a rock and your concern just doesn't feel genuine to me.
I watched an interview with Dan Bilzerian, he to finds it hard to have so many girlfriends, but finds the strength somehow. Also not sure if this is a insult or compliment.
If we don't teach polygamy we are accused of hiding it. If we do teach polygamy we are accused of grooming. I've taught polygamy and many other church subjects to my children - all in what I considered to be age appropriate instruction. The gospel teaching is home centered and church supported. If you folks were true non-believers, you wouldn't care as much as you do. You would be apathetic. But look at all the subscribers - still wrestling with The Church.
I completely support this episode because I despise polygamy and think this new resource is disgusting but John, your polygamy knowledge is filled with major holes and you keep interjecting inaccurate history. Since you cover all things Mormon, when are you going to have someone like Michelle Stone on to discuss some of her research?
@ I didn’t keep notes of a play by play but he’s just misguided on the historical record. One as an example, Oliver Cowdrey did not find Joseph and Fanny having sex in a barn, that is not claimed by anyone at any time but it sure is a good sound bite.
Even the church historians admit Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy. There is no way Michelle Stone has more documentary evidence than church historians. There are sworn legal affidavits from some of his wives saying they were married in every way. You might not like that Joseph Smith was sleeping with dozens of other women, but that is where all the legitimate evidence points.
I’ll have to push back a little bit , I believe the Hebrew Bible to be Gods word I have felt it’s power he has led me to read certain passages when I’ve needed guidance That book has been my source of strength ! Praise be to our Holy Almighty God ! I do believe the New Testament to be enerent The writers took Hebrew scripture and mis appropriated them in the new . I respect what others believe and I’m still rebuilding my faith journey , I really think the Jewish faith is probably the most real authentic one among the many in the world ❤
As a ex mormon that has taken a hebrew biblical college course myself after leaving, you could not be more wrong in your statement. You clearly either have not studied hebrew biblically or have been taught by horrible teachers. The hebrew people, who later became known as isreal are Gods chosen people, God had to choose a people that would be his witness to the world and that they would crucify him so that all could be saved. The price of redemption is death, God had to die on the Cross, that God, Elohim, aka hashem was jesus the christ, otherwise known as Yashuah Hamashiak. YHVH. When the fulness of the gentil is reached, Jesus will marry the 7 churches as his gentile bride, then Elohim will give isreal their 70th week and at the end of that, the veil will be removed from their eyes and accept yashua as the messiah.. The old testament and new testament are a perfect pair that could only have been put together by God himself. If tgis is not your understanding, you need to find better teachers as the entire Bible makes everything very clear to understand. Shalom
Are you sure that these cartoons are new? They were showing similar cartoons on tours of the Beehive House several decades ago? The cartoons have the type of language that Mormons were using before the internet. It is possible that they simply dusted off some old propaganda and put it online to counter claims that they were not transparent.
I’m not sure if anyone has pointed it out, but the way this kid’s version of polygamy was taught is pretty much exactly how it was taught to me all my years in the church. Just as simplistic and dishonest.
I was told as a young women at 12 years old that as weary I was about not wanting to live a polygamous life,that my heart would be softened in the afterlife to the idea of a polygamous marriage 😢 this was not comforting one bit to me
Yep Same here! The big question I hear constantly in Utah is "What's your posterity number"? Its all about Quantity not Quality! Im one of 21, born & conditioned LD$, a child bride as was my grandmothers before me, but I broke the mold and Im OUT ! Had my name and Auschwitz number removed from LD$
I was told that too in seminary when I confronted my teacher (who I actually respected) about this. We were assured that some of the (polygamous) women even grew to love polygamy and wrote about it in their journals. I didn’t care if it was done in Biblical times, and I didn’t care who wrote what (people will believe all sorts of things, especially if they have Stockholm syndrome). Polygamy is not of God. So grateful my parents hated it. We’ve all left the church now, and feel closer to God.
In the discussion about including the first wives in the "choice" to live plural marriage, I was reminded of this quote. "In 1882, Phebe Woodruff, first wife among seven to Wilford Woodruff, fourth president of the Church, speaking at a mass meeting of Mormon women held in defense of polygamy, said: "If I am proud of anything in this world, it is that I accepted the principle of plural marriage, and remained among the people called Mormons and am numbered with them today.
However, a few days later a long time friend asked: How is it Sister Woodruff that you have changed your views so suddenly about polygamy? I thought you hated and loathed the institution. Phebe responded: I have not changed. I loathe the unclean thing with all the strength of my nature, but Sister, I have suffered all that a woman can endure. I am old and helpless, and would rather stand up anywhere, and say anything commanded of me, than to be turned out of my home in my old age which I should most assuredly if I refused to obey counsel." -Van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy, p101
Oh my goodness!!! How horrible to have to lie and betray yourself in fear of ending up homeless
This illustrates the exploitation women existed under historically .. not to mention all of these women who were asked to marry men they didn’t know. They couldn’t say no because not only did it risk their social standing but their own salvation. Imagine having to let someone rape your body for the rest of your life so you can get into heaven? As a teenager I said to myself I would rather go to hell than believe in a god who would let that happen to women.
That is heartbreaking. I feel so much hatred towards Smith. I know hate is wrong, I get that, but the things he put women through young girls and older women like Woodruff. These disgusting men are hanging with Satan now
"I was so horrified by eternal polygamy - something I didn't really know about until I was an adult and engaged to be married - that I briefly considered not getting married at all, or at least, not in the temple. There were a few nights I cried myself to sleep.
Our legacy of polygamy invites doubt. Not just doubt in God, but doubt in the safety and stability of our most private, precious relationships. It suggests to women that what amounts to deep betrayal may come to us at any moment, and that our feelings of anguish would be yet another sacrifice on the altar of devotion.” -The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, Other Voices, page 53
Its not doubt about that divine source, about your own connection to the divine, rather, it's your doubt in the institution created around, abd even above, that devine source, the god of all
this is helping me realize my coertion was assault. yes, my anxiety is high, but it's nice to put a name to it. Thank you, mormon story for almost you do.
This was a huge problem for me growing up. My mother was widowed at 45 years old with 10 children at home. She would not even consider dating another man because she was already sealed to the love of her life.
My husband is mormon, and I joined the church because he was having some real hedonistic. Fish's issues, and I could see that our marriage was on the rocks if I did not do something. So I joined the church and I asked a lot of questions. And of course, he's very guarded, unanswering them, and I hit on the polygamy thang immediately, and he said that there were not enough husbands for the women, so this is how they manage to take care of them. Of course, this was absolutely wrong later. I found out and then I was asked about when we were gonna get married in the church in the temple and I said my husband is already sealed to his first wife. I have no desire to be a second wife in heaven. That statement was met with silence and a stare, and then nothing more was said.
You're very lucky. My mom was opposite and each time she married she gained more drama & kids. Her last husband had 11 kids from one marraige by then my mom had 10 of her own. They taught us Quantity over Quality. I was conditioned from day one to accept that my husband will marry/be sealed to other women. It's never changed. Now in 2024 My brother was just married to his 3rd wife in a mormonTemple. When they die they will continue with spirit babies!! lmao
First time viewer ex-mormon here. I was unsure of what this podcast was in terms of pro-con perspective. I will be back because I appreciate the acknowledgement of verifiable truth without the vitriol so many of us feel towards the church, and the open-minded tone.
Really appreciate you guys shining some light on this. I’ve left the church and my husband considers himself inactive. We have a very happy marriage with an amazing two-year-old girl, and hope for more kids. I consider myself non-denominational Christian now, and have been on the fence about letting my daughter investigate the Mormon church someday. We’re Utahn with pioneer blood so I’m sure it will happen. I do think there’s a lot of good in the church and will eventually support her making her own decisions on religious practice, but this changes my willingness to let her in while she’s young. I’ll support her if she chooses to join later, but not before she knows her true value and has all the facts.
Thanks again for forcing transparency!
You guys are so on it!! lol whenever the church changes something you guys are aware instantly. Great job!
Every time politics changes so will their scriptures. LD$ is the best business in town & nothing more than political, financial, power & control. They don't realize they are so transparent that any predator can track down these influencer's kids. The RubyFrankie's & Nelsons promote abuse from children to women. U2b should also be responsible for allowing that content !!
This is very upsetting. Thanks for being on it
LD$ in Utah - My G-gma was14 yrs old, Gma, 17, momma18 yrs, myself 16 yrs old when I had a son. 5 living generations is Shameful and a first clue of abuse !!
Mormon Stories is on fire lately. Great coverage of important issues.
Listening to this, I am reminded of Elissa Wall, who was told to 'go with her heart' by one prophet, and then told her heart was 'wrong' by the next prophet. And all the abuse and pain she suffered as a result. Also Ada Marie Draper, who was married at 16, and 'punished' by her husband (Warren Jeffs) by being withheld pregnancy. And I keep coming back to the realisation that they were CHILDREN. Then I get so angry.
"As a single mother I raised my children in the church and supported my two sons on missions. My oldest son, who all of his life has been an active, worthy member of the church, is married to a wonderful woman who was widowed (while pregnant) at age twenty-one. They now have two children together, who are not sealed to their own father but to a man they don't know. My son's heart aches to be a part of the eternal family that he was always promised by the church he believes in. He now feels his mission was wasted by teaching people they could be with their families forever. He can't, and for no fault of his own." -The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, Other Voices, page 99
Technically they could all be in the celestial kingdom, but he can't be in the top level because he's not sealed, unless God resolves the situation somehow. I'm not sure what that would mean for their togetherness.
In my opinion if we are all brothers and sisters, Joseph said this at the beginning of all his sermons. Brothers and sisters, how much closer can you get to people than Brothers and sisters? still they're not sealed husbands and wives doesn't matter if we're all connected in the hereafter if we are already connected. I believe the only person we need to be sealed with by our hearts is to Jesus Christ and God the eternal father. God bless.
Tell your dear son to start investigating the NDE ers. Those who died for a minute, or longer,abd were brEN in their MANmade institutions who made a god in their own image!!!!!
Will you please proofread the last part of your comment..😬 Thnx@@Dutchess0909
"In our premortal life we had moral agency. One purpose of earth life is to show what choices we will make. If we were *forced* to choose the right, we would not be able to show what we would choose for ourselves." -Gospel Principles, Ch 4.
"During the third and final appearance, the angel came with a drawn sword, threatening Joseph with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the commandment fully." -Plural Marriage in Kirtland & Nauvoo, Gospel Topics Essay
That was brilliant - and you quoted Bluey, such discernment strengthens your credibility.
This episode has highlighted this dilemma, should I let my 95 year old fully physically and mentally active mother know about the coercion she has lived under her whole life?
And why did god create male and female in a more or less one to one ratio?
I got the bad touch during the washing/anointing in the temple. Glad they changed it the next year so my siblings didn't get it--but they also don't believe me when I explain how it used to be.
Yuck. I am sorry that happened to you.
Yes John, this was also true for my great grandmother's in plural marriage. My grandfather was also constantly sent in Missions throughout Utah, teaching people how to farm. He died of heatstroke, leaving all three wives and the children destitute.
I’m so glad you guys voice objective reasoning, and actual freedom of choice. ❤ thank you ❤
I don't think enough is made about the threat to Emma. She had no choice. Period.
Thanks!
You bet!
Interesting discussion as always!
This is off topic but i like how natashas lipstick matches her jacket.
Hee hee hee ❤
The Ex Muslim space is growing - I’d love to see some of them on Mormon stories
I’d love to hear Dan Vogels review on this new children’s cartoon version of polygamy history.
Just finished… So good. Thank you for this episode.
1:03:45 The ridiculous & oppressive thing here is that the church forces polygamy on women who remarry. When the husband was previously sealed, a cancellation is rarely requested and even more rarely given. As an illustration, my husband is still sealed to his ex wife even though I got my sealing cancelled and got sealed to him. He’s chosen in this life not to be with her, but in eternity, I become second wife to her even though I’m his chosen partner. It’s horrific and brutal, but rather than change it, the church serves up platitudes like, “God won’t make you be with someone you don’t want to be with,” while forcing you to remain connected here on earth.
Natasha Helfer 🔥🔥🔥
I had nightmares all the years of my married Mormon life that polygamy was being re-instituted and my husband had been assigned new wives. I would wake up emotionally crushed and furious. And my poor faithful husband would say things like, “I only want to be married to you. But I always try to obey what God commands.” Not exactly comforting. I am so grateful we no longer believe in that traumatic doctrine.
What an important discussion. Absolutely loved the conviction. Thank you so much for bringing awareness ❤
Everyone of those disorder that Natasha talks about, I have due to sexual assault, religious trauma !! My life is a mess!! I really enjoyed this I live in Belize we wish we could send a million $$$ hope those who can, will support this is such a big help!!
Such a great analysis of how problematic this lesson is! Thank you. Also I’m dying that the family lesson will be the week before Thanksgiving. Hope it doesn’t cause strife around the extended family dinner tables😢
Before thanksgiving. Was this just released today 12/16?
@ yes but podcast showed come follow me lesson manual next year has a polygamy lesson on Nov. 16, 2025
“How could this (abuse) have happened when this person has the priesthood authority and was called? ….They’re going to have to admit that they make mistakes….until they can do that we are going consistently be in that place of coercion”. Brilliant.
How can anyone seriously ask that question? We have very publicly documented cases of bishops and bishopric members arrested for involvement in sex trafficking rings. There was at least one in Salt Lake City and one in Florida if my memory serves accurately. And I believe another case in Colorado. And we've certainly had enough well-documented cases of ordinary church members being very publicly caught in extremely graphic and disgustingly horrendous sexual abuse of their own children. That doesn't begin to cover all those never caught, those abusing children other than their own, or all those engaged in physical emotional, verbal and psychological abuse. And the church never brings up wife abuse when discussing abuse. It's kind of vanished as a thing. I know people keep saying abuse rates in the church are the same as for the general population (church authorities have stated this in conference talks I've heard in real time), but I really wonder. Virtually every child I grew up with in the church was being abused in some way, and abuse has been exceedingly common in every ward I've ever lived in. Personally, I believe it's just enormously under reported. I believe there are many aspects of the church that foster abuse.
Grateful for this and also had to check out for my mental health. Thanks for taking this on, Mormon Stories.
Plural marriage brings blessings to those who follow the Lord's commandments, the same way blessings are brought to those who pay tithing REGARDLESS of their financial situation.
These types of ordinances and commandments really ONLY benefit the church, then maybe the wealthy who believe. The rest, the majority of its followers suffered, waiting for blessings and believed the crumbs they were tossed were blessings.
HOWEVER, if you choose to think of your family, your children, or yourself in these situations, ESPECIALLY back then, if you questioned or denied then if for example your child got gravely sick or DIED you are shamed relentlessly and live a life of guilt or shame.
It's a VICIOUS abuse cycle that has gone on for GENERATIONS throughout the church. Unnecessary and unfortunate pain and trauma that continues to be passed on.
💔
It's my birthday 🎉
(December 16)
Love to spend it with Mormon stories podcast
(Well, actually it was yesterday, our country has different time)
While I could never have two wives … I don’t understand why, in this day and age, why anyone should care if three consenting adults wants to marry?
Our criticism is that in Mormon polygamous history, the women and girls were not in positions to consent.
Another thing, was Emma really Joseph's 23rd sealed wife? Where can I read something about that?
Thank you so much for your coverage of this topic! This was a very thoughtful analysis. My first thought when reading this children’s story about plural marriage a few days ago when the news broke, was that it sounded like grooming. With the church developing children’s stories like these, it doesn’t surprise me we get mission presidents who have pressured sister missionaries to engage in polygamy with them and become their plural wives. I’m glad that you brought up this very point John! I have been thinking about this the last few days. This church teaches men that they can do whatever the hell they want and claim it is of God. & women have to obey their male leaders (keep sweet, pray and obey).
This podcast has been a great resource to see different arguments and modes of thought. Crazy to think that besides a mission, I've encountered little divergent thought besides my own that was almost always met with fear and apologetics. Current member that looks forward to information changing minds.
Ts 44:15 "Lest ye be destroyed" Fear based religion. The 2nd coming is soon- has been taught hundreds of years. Your husband may need multiple wives, You may not. Pay your tithes & LD$ will always have your back (Not) The mind manipulation I accepted for decades as a temple mormon will forever haunt me. I wrote & had my name & number removed (welcome back any time for rebaptism) Leaving the fear & oppression was Amazing !
I really appreciate the professionalism of the panel in this episode. And this is another example of the Church being sneaky and just slipping this story into their website.
48:05 it was so hard for all the apostles 😂😂😂
If Joseph and Brigham taught it, it must be righteous teaching.
brilliant!
rebranding, making all people who were shocked about, SAID SUBJECT HERE, diminish their lived experiences.
Recently Utah downgraded the crime of polygamy to a misdemeanor. Maybe the church feels more free to teach/practice polygamy now. Coincidence?
My brother became a mormon and his wife didn't. When my brother died, they straight out told her they could not help her unless she joined the church.
LOVE the facial hair, John!!!!
I went through the Come Follow Me manual for 2025. The weeks that live Sunday School occurs (first and third Sundays) does not include polygamy. That is done for home study during the off weeks where members are to go through lessons on their own. The church did the same thing four years ago when we studied Doctrine and Covenants.
Isn’t that convenient!!
And that's for the adults. The teens and kids usually still learn from that manual on the 2nd and 4th weeks. So they can indoctrinate the kids and not allow the adults to actually learn and discuss it.... in my opinion that's pretty slimy.
I am so glad i got out last year, and not needing to have this conversation with my kids. I would have to look at my little 7 year old and tell her that god basically values boys more. Thank you and Mike for helping me find data that changed my life.
Anything in there about obeying the law of the land? Lying? Living a secret life?
I’m not sure if anyone has pointed it out, but the way this kid’s version of polygamy was taught is pretty much exactly how it was taught to me all my years in the church. Just as simplistic and dishonest.
It is not grooming. It is indoctrinating the false narrative of the History of polygamy.
It's grooming in the way of normalizing/indocrinating obedience, to do something your leader tells you too, even if it's hard or doesn't feel right. And then allowing them to be put in compromising positions with leaders.
I think it is a generalized grooming. Say you’re a primary kid reading this story and you come to believe the message that you should do what your church leaders say even if it feels wrong or makes you uncomfortable? That really sets the stage for accepting abuse as a natural byproduct of faithful obedience. I can just imagine a creepy primary teacher reading this to children to lay the groundwork of their own abuse.
If a teenager doesn't want the bishop to ask them invasive questions, they absolutely wouldn't want those questions asked when their parent is present. The teen has no way of knowing if the bishop will ask less invasive questions or ask the exact same ones with their parent in the room. And if the bishop asks "have you had sex" and the teen doesn't want to answer, the parent, who likely considers sexual sin as next to murder as the church teaches, will be like "well??? answer the question!" That is not a solution.
At least it does make it more difficult for the priesthood leader to ask anything extra, probing, and absolutely no touching. It would help a little, but not a complete solution.
As I keep saying a good church helps you grow spiritually. It doesn’t tell you what to do.
Has the church removed this I can't find it ?
www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-stories-2025/44-plural-marriage?lang=eng
Doing these kind of videos hopefully helps you sleep better at night.
Because you all have made it known, they have to address it. So now they’re trying to minimize polygamy.
Looking good John the beard is rockin'! (Please forgive my shallowness).
Sexual misconduct and criminality exist in every organization, secular and religious alike. Sexual predators must be exposed and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Because of the long standing size of the Catholic Church, our bishops under the direction of the pope have had to develop measures to deal with the problem across the board. It is not any easy task but very necessary. So the LDS Church is by no means “alone” in this area of discipline. God bless! ❤❤❤😊😊😊
I don’t know if this is helpful but I will offer it anyway. As a Catholic Christian I can testify that the Catholic Church has always rejected the practice of polygamy as lawful for believers. This rejection is founded in the explicit words of Christ in the New Testament that marriage is an indissoluble union between one man and one woman for life. The Israelite patriarchs and kings of the Old Covenant did sometimes practice polygamy, but it was never something God approved of. In fact, polygamy in the Old Testament is often problematic and resulted in apostasy from the faith over time. Of course, the Catholic Church has always rejected the claims of Joseph Smith outright. Just saying… 😊😊😊❤❤❤ Catechism of the Catholic Church 1601-1624.
I never understood and still don’t understand why? I was told it was to raise a righteous generation…what? It never made sense, only to control women and to put them against each other for a space at the top of a hierarchy.
A lot of men who turned S3X into scripture so women would obey.
“At the resurrection (of the dead) they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven.” Jesus Christ, Matthew 22: 30. New American Bible. Doctrinal Point: There is no such thing as celestial marriage. 😊😊😊❤❤❤
I was taught polygamy in primary school when I was a child.
Was it about Joseph Smiths polygamy? That was hidden by the church until recently. I grew up in the church never being taught about it.
@@ginafrancis4950Yes I was taught in primary that he practiced polygamy.
The apologist will say he never had sexual relationships with all his other wives. I personally think he did, and that polygamy now and then is for the guy to have more sex and more control.
What evidence do you have showing he was sexually active with the other wives?
This is the most powerful Mormon stories episode that I've EVER heard. There are no ifs or buts about it. Plenty of ands because there will always be something to add with the Mormon church 🫰🔥
It’s effed🎉
At point 37:50 the topic discussion there, it is the same exact issue for JW children and adolescents, and asking the same question.
Most churches see Jesus as telling you the way, love your neighbor, help the poor etc. See Howard Thurman, “Jesus and the Disinherited. “ The Old Testament is seen as that, old laws are not hit over your head. Jesus is seen as coming to bring the new law, and issue a new Commandment to love one another.
I was told if I wanted a temple cancellation or divorce that it would brake my own children’s
Sealing to me even tho my children were not sealed to him but were born under the covenant (years after we were divorced) so therefore I did not go thru with the cancellation. Also my Bishop was a total jerk and acted like I was the one at fault even though he was mentally and physically abusive, my Bishop stood up for him and told me that I needed to work more on forgiveness of him. Its all BS and I was so young naive at the time to dispute it.
I feel like this is a way the church could be planting things to start normalizing or prepare the next generation for some very different kinds of policies such as allowing gay marriage. I think this is just a way to help condition children and as they grow into adults to accept more radical things
kids should not be learning about any of this. maybe they could incorporate this in a sunday school class for kids 12 and up. we learned so many topics like nephi killing laben and alma the younger and so many things that arent child appropriate. the last thing these kids need to learn is about polygamy im sorry there is a better age range for informed consent.
I’m curious if the LDS church would have glossed over this doctrine in the video and never mentioned it if Dehlin would have made a video of how the Mormon church hides what they truly believe. And then when they are transparent then Dehlin will find a way to describe that transparency as “sneaky”so as to be able to point to this transparency as the church’s out that they aren’t hiding, “see we put this in the video years ago, so you can’t say we weren’t transparent” Man ya can’t win with Dehlin
When one assigns something to God that is not of God it is BLASPHEMY plain and simple. Whoever signed off on this knows better...SHAME
I got to dislike most religions I mean organised religion because all I can see hypocrisy I believe in all moral values that makes a community run fairly. Born Catholic and never had bad experiences. Then I really didn’t believe in fairy tales
Come back John, it's time.
As far as God commanding polygamy in the OT. There are two things that I can remember that are not God *commanding* polygamy per se, but absolutely demonstrate that God was not, at the time of writing, seen as commanding 100% monogamy only. One is the case where a man's brother dies without having any kids. He has a duty to his dead brother to impregnate his sister in law, so that his brother's line can continue through her. Onan was smited for pulling out rather than giving his dead brother offspring who could inherit and the duty to impregnate her was passed on to another man in the family. There is no exception for being already married and the living brother would also have expected to have HIS own offspring that could inherit HIS stuff, presumably with his own wife. The other case is God talking to David in 2 Samuel 12, and says that he gave David everything that had been Saul's, including Saul's wives. God is not angry at David for *having* more than one wife, he's angry at David for being so greedy that he *took* another man's wife (and killed the guy to do so.)
It's 1) not a prophet thing and 2) not a commandment to have multiple wives (one is giving your dead brother offspring, the other is a gift rather than a command) but neither is God particularly put off by the concept of one man having sex with multiple women. Prophets' wives don't come up much at all, IF at all, IIRC. By the time of the prophets, the lineages the Bible cares about are connected to the throne, especially David's dynasty.
In descriptive terms notions of marriageable age have varied across time and space. Puberty has often been seen as a key moment here Polygeny, of course, has been, descriptively speaking, one form of human marriage systems. There are, as you know, others. As for normative conceptions of these issues, they too have varied across time and space. I prefer to ground the normative in descriptive reality and an understanding that these issues have often varies across space and time…It is called SOCIALISATION. EVERYONE DOES IT.
That's a lot like saying NAMBLA is fine with intimate relations between men and male children so it's "normative". That's hogwash.
How about we ground the conversation in the specific time and place it was introduced and practiced? Grown men were not marrying 14 year old girls or taking on dozens of wives in 19th century America. It was culturally and legally forbidden. Regular men were not marrying other men’s wives or marrying mother-daughter pairs in the 1840’s in New England. I don’t think it serves a useful purpose to act like we need to take into account the entirety of world history to decide if barely pubescent girls should be coerced into sexual relationships with a grown men in entirely asymmetrical power dynamic.
Trying to profit at the expense of others’ harm or downfall. Videos like these are very disturbing to your own self.
Crazy 🤪 that’s all I got.
Over & over again in the scriptures God tells us to have 1 wife, 1 husband & how sacred our marriage covenants are! How can ANYONE believe the filthiness of polygamy and having sex with so many women be sacred!
When Joseph says he had this revelation about polygamy he is calling God a hypocrite! I do not believe God is a hypocrite!
It says in scripture his laws are the same forever never changing so why would he change this law?
Why would he TEACH monogamy & then turn around & say it's OK for polygamy?
That is deceitful, misguided.
I know my God teaches isn't deceptive like that.
I have a strong dislike for the leaders of the church, however, I have mixed feelings on this. We are becoming more and more accepting of non traditional relationships such as same sex relationships, polyamorous relationships, etc.; so I don't have a problem with polygamy, per se. However, when it is forces upon women as in the FLDS Church or when boys become superfluous to a community and are abandoned, I think it's dreadful. If 3 or more people want to enter into a relationship of their own accord, more power to you. (BTW, I am gay and in a same sex relationship, if that matters.)
This seems to be a case of hearing only what you want to hear. There are many things worth debating or pointing a finger about any church and it's members. I agree with that. However, This one seems desperate for today's LDS church finger pointers. Suggesting the LDS church is "teaching Polygamy" to children? Step back and see the whole picture on this one in today's LDS church. If you have two wives at the same time, you can't be a member of the church. If you are a member, and try this, you are more than likely to be excommunicated. So trying to suggest that the church is teaching it's youth to engage in active polygamy is just not true. I also just don't understand the need to try to poke holes in an institution striving to help people better their lives such as a church. Putting energy and effort in to something like this is difficult for me to understand. Especially when there are so many real causes that could make a real difference if you put your energy into them. There are very impactful groups helping get people out of drug addictions, helping heal broken homes, finding homes for parentless children etc. (I might add the LDS church helps in these areas too). You can debate which groups are more impactful in their outcome but at that point are we not just being petty? If you are very concerned about the plural marriage situation in America, then you should be equally or more concerned about other "Morality" issues in America. Look at our culture today and if your biggest concern is that the LDS church could secretly be teaching youth to grow up and be polygamists, then you live under a rock and your concern just doesn't feel genuine to me.
I watched an interview with Dan Bilzerian, he to finds it hard to have so many girlfriends, but finds the strength somehow.
Also not sure if this is a insult or compliment.
It's very 'hard' to be a polygamist. (John's joke)
How bout them Apples!?
Do you think that the church could bring back polygamy within the next 150 years due to the declining birth rate in the US?
To be fair, isn’t that the original doctrine Joseph Smith taught?
No
If we don't teach polygamy we are accused of hiding it. If we do teach polygamy we are accused of grooming. I've taught polygamy and many other church subjects to my children - all in what I considered to be age appropriate instruction. The gospel teaching is home centered and church supported. If you folks were true non-believers, you wouldn't care as much as you do. You would be apathetic. But look at all the subscribers - still wrestling with The Church.
I completely support this episode because I despise polygamy and think this new resource is disgusting but John, your polygamy knowledge is filled with major holes and you keep interjecting inaccurate history. Since you cover all things Mormon, when are you going to have someone like Michelle Stone on to discuss some of her research?
Where is he wrong? Which statement?
@ I didn’t keep notes of a play by play but he’s just misguided on the historical record. One as an example, Oliver Cowdrey did not find Joseph and Fanny having sex in a barn, that is not claimed by anyone at any time but it sure is a good sound bite.
😂😂😂
@@mormonstories Not sure what’s so funny
Even the church historians admit Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy. There is no way Michelle Stone has more documentary evidence than church historians. There are sworn legal affidavits from some of his wives saying they were married in every way. You might not like that Joseph Smith was sleeping with dozens of other women, but that is where all the legitimate evidence points.
I’ll have to push back a little bit , I believe the Hebrew Bible to be Gods word I have felt it’s power he has led me to read certain passages when I’ve needed guidance
That book has been my source of strength !
Praise be to our Holy Almighty God !
I do believe the New Testament to be enerent
The writers took Hebrew scripture and mis appropriated them in the new . I respect what others believe and I’m still rebuilding my faith journey , I really think the Jewish faith is probably the most real authentic one among the many in the world ❤
As a ex mormon that has taken a hebrew biblical college course myself after leaving, you could not be more wrong in your statement.
You clearly either have not studied hebrew biblically or have been taught by horrible teachers.
The hebrew people, who later became known as isreal are Gods chosen people, God had to choose a people that would be his witness to the world and that they would crucify him so that all could be saved.
The price of redemption is death, God had to die on the Cross, that God, Elohim, aka hashem was jesus the christ, otherwise known as Yashuah Hamashiak. YHVH.
When the fulness of the gentil is reached, Jesus will marry the 7 churches as his gentile bride, then Elohim will give isreal their 70th week and at the end of that, the veil will be removed from their eyes and accept yashua as the messiah..
The old testament and new testament are a perfect pair that could only have been put together by God himself.
If tgis is not your understanding, you need to find better teachers as the entire Bible makes everything very clear to understand.
Shalom
Are you sure that these cartoons are new? They were showing similar cartoons on tours of the Beehive House several decades ago? The cartoons have the type of language that Mormons were using before the internet.
It is possible that they simply dusted off some old propaganda and put it online to counter claims that they were not transparent.
I struggle keeping the one wife happy let alone a dozen 😂
Or the reverse, not only making one wife angry but a dozen!
Thanks!
Welcome!
I’m not sure if anyone has pointed it out, but the way this kid’s version of polygamy was taught is pretty much exactly how it was taught to me all my years in the church. Just as simplistic and dishonest.
Thanks!