Phase 1 - was great, Just pure fun movies Phase 2 - was very hit & miss IMO, "Winter Soldier & GOTG" were great but everything else wasn't very good Phase 3 - was Poor aside from "Civil War", "Infinity War" & "Endgame" I thought the rest blew Phase 4 - No Way Home was great but the rest SUCK I don't know about any of the Disney+ series as I don't watch em
D+ tv shows mostly start strong with good ideas, but quickly deteriorate into man bad woman good! Except Moon Knight, who was sabotaged immediately. I quit on episode 2 of Hawkeye and Moon Knight and haven't watched anything since.
I like pretty much everything in Phase 1 and 2 including Iron Man 3 and Dark World. Phase 3 I agree except I thought Endgame was awful, I stopped watching after about 30 minutes and accepted "Thanos wins" as the end of the MCU.
thing is, the audience WAS growing. from iron man 1 to endgame the audience grew massively. all kinds of people who would never watch a superhero movie went to watch superhero movies because there was an ongoing plot and some quality. now the core audience is feeling alienated and the diversity audience isn't interested.
This is true. Some of this leak is garbled. China shut out Disney after Disney went hard into identity politics (CM and Disney Star Wars for example), not before. Also, Disney didn't go for "diversity of behavior" until Thor 4 and She-Hulk which sound gross for Disney. (Apparetly, Andor also is a move into gross.) Though I suspect this mostly means pro-alphabet. Woke money (ESG) is the true cause. I wonder if China was the reason I didn't like the Russo Av movies (CW, IW, En). They are anti-individual and feel like Asian dramas, not superhero comics.
I don’t even think it has anything to do with the core audience feeling alienated. I feel like it has more to do with them being disinterested. It’s always the same film with a different coat of paint slapped on. It’s time Marvel took some risks.
@@tomcruisenukedmyaccount5388 I think the problem between phase 1 and what came later was that the entire character of the MCU changed. It started with movies about individuals. Iron Man. Thor. Captain America. One character led the story and we saw real change going on. Thereafter, especially following the first Avengers movie, it changed dramatically. The first Avengers was fine, they still had time for the characters to grow and get their moment in the sun, but after that, the movies stopped being about individuals and started being about groups. Iron Man movies weren't about Iron Man anymore. They stopped being about individuals and started to be about ensemble casts and by the time you got to Endgame, there were so many characters that you couldn't even tell stories about them all. There wasn't any time. That scene in Endgame where everyone came back from the dead is a perfect example. Who even knows who all of those people are? Who even cares? They get 30 seconds of screen time, if that and then they're gone. Most of them don't even get to speak a line of dialogue. It's just CGI porn and I am ever so sick of that. It went from "watch my movie" to "buy all of these action figures" and if you notice, since Disney took over, action figure sales for Marvel and Star Wars are both in the toilet because nobody cares anymore. They have done themselves in. They have nobody to blame but themselves.
The same damn thing happened to Star Wars. When George owned it, at least he cared about telling an amazing story with characters we grew to love. Now with Darth Kathleen in charge, it's 'consume our product and political propaganda, or you're a bad person!'
@@BitchspotBlog Those are good points. Endgame is horrendous. Many of the Fox X movies also have the problem of to many characters (Dark Phoenix is underrated). While Whedon portrayed characters with flaws, he maintained the Avengers' heroism. The Russo Av movies (not including WS) are anti-individual on a deep level. When I rewatched CW and IW, I felt they were made for people who dislike individualism and American heroes. Thor 3 and 4 and the Disney Spider-Man movies are similar.
EXACTLY ! VERY VERY TRUE ! The old comics was (and still is) a treasure trove of superhero stories & artwork 👍👍👍👍 ! The comics from 2015 onwards with its focus on forced diversity & representation rather than good storytelling is garbage 👎👎👎👎 !
Thomas Sowell has a book he published on Economics. It covers the history of many companies who thought they were too big to fail and one thing you need to take from history is if you don't learn from it, prepare to repeat it. These companies are doing the same thing with the same attitude and same actions. They think everything is going to play out just like they plan it, but they forget that there are more elements out of their control than there are in their control.
Disney deserves every failure and cut to their conglomerate imaginable. I don't trust _any_ Disney-owned corporation to not feed me bullshit everywhere I look.
A big part of the problem isn't the forced diversity on the screen, it's the forced diversity of the screen when writers must reflect the race and gender of the characters on the screen. You have people who have no business writing Superhero stories writing for very prominent shows, movies and comic books.
@@charlesws7825 She-Hulk first appeared in 1980. It's the lazy, often young and idealistic (read as dumb) writers pushing their ideals as hard as they can. And rather than pay for actual writing talent Disney wants to push agendas with cheap hipster writers while hemorrhaging money.
@@MS7000_ Just take comfort in this: it's nothing but an overrated actress and a big CGI rage monster trying to be She-Hulk, but failing in every sense! I might as well get as mad at her as I did at George Clooney for making Batman look so damn campy, I couldn't even watch him. Heck, I could take Adam West all the way seriously as Batman ANY day!
Totally agree, even if it’s sounding sentimental or some, I think heart plays a big part. Feige for example, sure he can’t be perfect like everyone, but he’s doing it for so long with the passion behind it. And he can’t be everywhere, so yeah, like good and some bad comics you have good movies and some bad movies !
@AREA35Gold, Feige is an overrated hack, who rode on the curtails of Jon Favreau and Joss Whedon in creating the MCU.He's not a fanboy like everyone does think he is. He's a fraud.
@@markmolino679 I doubt you know him that close, but anyway there’s always a lot of people involved and he got up to a leading one. Marvel wasn’t build with one Person doh, plus here and there are some mistakes made, whatever, it’s not like DCEU or what it’s called for example.
It sounds simple, but understanding the basics of the human condition and giving us the ability to be part of that world is how you capture hearts and minds into your work, imagine how far we've fallen if that can't even get that right.
So, I'm for diversity. Geeks really have always been diverse. What's terrible right now is the character are paper flat narcissists. Having diverse characters with heroic traits would be great, but they’re writen as horrible resentful people with strawman antagonist. The companies turned art into advertising.
LOL, Feige thinks that he can weather the loss of the original fanbase and then buy us back later? That hasn't even been done in the comics yet, and it's been 7 years!
they pulled something like that with NWH, heck if the rumors of Tom Cruise and Hugh Jackman in DS2 were real that film would have done a lot more, sadly people really fall for those types of things.
Yeah, god knows that Marvel has had decades of incredible source material for Kevin to draw upon...and he has to go with the 'world outside your window' crap ranging from Kamala Khan (how many series has she had cancelled?) to only slightly better stuff like Kate Bishop, who I'll never call Hawkeye!
They're pandering to a small minority who already doesnt buy in..while Theyre pissing off and ignoring the fans who do. The same model is tanking Marvel comics. It's not a mystery at all.
Solid video Wes! Feige made the mistake in not understanding the meaning of "If something isn't broken don't fix it." With the Fantastic Four, X-Men and all the characters related to those properties, I've always believed that the MCU could have continued to be just as successful if not more so after 'Endgame' But he chose to go the route of making the MCU into what the comics are now...a lifestyle brand.
They’re so focused on growth despite having a consistent healthy harvest. When you grow a fruit larger than it should be it starts to lose its flavour.
I groaned at that A-Force scene. So ridiculous… I didn’t know that was heralding the end. As a female/ earlier generation feminist, I think She Hulk is insulting and boring dog shit.
So sad how far the MCU has fallen. Looking back, I feel like phase 1 was the best phase. Yeah there was some humor sprinkled in (esecially Avengers, which ended up being the template for most of the MCU tropes we know now) but those movies had more heart and respected the source material. When agendas and "the message" take precedence over good storytelling, companies always fail yet they keep doing it for some reason. It's like they enjoy losing money. I support diversity but it can't be forced and it can be done in a way where you don't sacrifice storytelling and character development.
Let it fall. Disney needs to learn a HARD lesson, I just hope it happens before they sully and ruin the X-Men in film. The only reason Spiderman: No Way Home worked was because Sony was involved.
I don't think that's true at all. Have you seen their other movies? Sony isn't exactly known for its consistency in quality. When they put out a good movie, it's entirely because they just so happen to have good talent involved. The arrangement between the two companies is that Marvel Studios is basically creatively responsible, and Sony has to simply sign off on it or provide producer's notes on recommended changes, but it is still a part of the Marvel Studios story. This movie definitely fits the pattern described in this video with the reliance on nostalgia/fan service. The reason the movie was good was because the talent attached to it also happened to be good.
In my circle of friends I've become the negative person when it comes to comic books. My friends say I complain too much and don't just enjoy what DC and marvel give me. I tell them I've been a comicbook fan since my parents gave me a green lantern comic book in 1980. It pains me to feel that DC and marvel don't care what I want anymore. They've catered to everyone except the long time comic book fans
My moment of realization was watching Love and Thunder, along with the first She Hulk episode. Crappy comedy with zero character development or just repeated arcs. Why not do more crossovers between movies? Like a three movie arc with villains that are actually threatening? It’s like Disney is finding the cheapest way to entertain us, but totaling failing at it.
The China angle makes sense, Disney tried to court Chinese audiences with western sensibilities for years but it never worked, and then Mulan bombed and worse, the director went political and hurt Disney's chances even further, no wonder they pushed the brakes on Disney after that.
Trying to resuscitate a brand can be much more challenging than building one. Even if they pivot back to the actual fans, many will just move on and Disney will lose them forever. Lesson: never take your customers for granted.
Do you remember when Stan Lee, who notoriously did exceedingly little, quit Marvel creative and editorial, then headed off to Hollywood to get Marvel projects off the ground while the "Stan Lee presents" tag was put onto every single book so that everyone Lee was courting would look at Marvel and think it a cohesive and intelligible world and brand for the perception that Stan was the father of it all and in control of everything? They did it again, this time with Kevin Feige. Feige was installed in a position and the propaganda began rolling in about how he was the singular visionary behind the MCU, then he was put in charge of all Marvel for the illusion to be complete. Look at all of his credits before Iron Man and be honest, could Feige really pull anything like an MCU off? And if he could, how difficult could it be and how much work is it really if he was able to mastermind it all? No one wants to talk about this but they really should, because the past is the best indicator of the future and we know exactly what Marvel will do so they can be successful in film and television, because they did it already with Stan Lee, a notorious and remorseless thief. It is documented what happened and why "Stan Lee presents" ever existed. We now have "Kevin Feige presents," only no one buys the books anymore so it was put everywhere else.
Not pleasing the fans does not equal bad writing, or really bad writing. But for some reason, appealing to this “new audience” does…. Make that make sense…
Marvel: the majority of ticket sales on growth would be from China, the biggest market in the world. Tom Cruise: huh???? Odd, my movie made over a billion dollars and didn’t show in a single theater in China.
What’s confusing is when Disney bought Star Wars and Marvel, it was designed to increase their share of the boy market, because they already had the girl market sewn up so well, and then the first thing they do is try to make them more for girls. There’s nothing wrong with trying to get as many people as you possibly can, but they only seem to know how to do it in a way that turns off the audience they already had in pursuit of a different one. If you lose one for every one you get, you’ve gained nothing.
I think it was a lack of creativity more than anything else. Before Disney bought Pixar, they were running out of steam. Buying Pixar gave them a few more years. It's the same thing with Marvel and Star Wars.
I got my nephew a He-man on clearance for $3 the other day. $12 should be the regular price, it's strange that Marvel pretty much makes action figures for adults now (considering the Legends go for $30.)
When you burn your consumers so many times, subvert expectations, bait and switch, and, above all else, alienate everyone by trying to please everyone it's hard for them to come back. Marvel/Pixar/Lucas Films/ Disney is falling down a slippery slope with continued nepotism and it's on them in the end. Will it get back to where we want it to be? I dunno. And it is sad.
You know what this feels like? It’s like a guy who was moderately cute in high school, and picked up a girlfriend who liked him how he was, and loved to see him grow and progress, helping him out in the process, and sticking by him through the stumbles. The years pass, the guy gets very good looking, very popular and very successful, and now other girls are paying attention. He starts cheating around, changing behaviours and appearance to get those one night stands, taking his original girl for granted. Then, the girl has enough, leaves and the guy is left with the shallow girls who only wanted a one and done deal with him. That’s the MCU. They had us, but they wanted to pander to markets who couldn’t care less, and lost us along the way after a decade’s worth of loyalty.
Phases 4, 5 and 6 are not recoverable at this point, things are too broken to fix for the next +5 years. The characters in these phases are not interesting and not what fans or casuals are going to want to see. If the fans are out, the casuals will only linger for so long. They're at DC levels of crisis rebooting before they'll recover.
I hate to say it, but like you mentioned, Kevin has been proven right, so far. Sure he hasn’t gotten the viewership they would have loved to see, but the narrative and possibly even the demographic is there. People still see these awful shows as just not for them, but for a specific group, and that group almost seem to enjoy these products. And the worst of it all is that all he has to do is jingle the keys and it has worked from the most normie of MCU fans to the most die-hard Comic book fans. The only way it stops is if we say no to it all.
I don't think that's necessarily true that "those audiences seem to be enjoying these products." They express approval of these products on Twitter and largely don't actually watch them. That's why they're all not getting the desired views. I also don't think the fan service route is going to work for much longer. Fan service devoid of actual meaning and substance is ultimately going to sour their core audience even on the things that are actually supposed to be made for them. It worked for Spider-Man: No Way Home because that actually turned out to be a pretty good movie. It wasn't just hollow fan-service for the sake of fan service unlike Dr. Strange & the Multiverse of Madness.
He needs go. He's destroyed the black panther, he's made thor a wimp, he's putting in characters in new shows who's comics have been canceled over and over again and thinks we will bow down to his will. I've been a marvel since Spiderman came out in amazing tales. The destruction this man is doing is making people turn away and maybe not come back. He listened to the Twitter mob and not the fans and think race swapping is good!!! I grew up with a white wonderman, Namor being atlantian not mayan!!Mayan!!! Kang the conquerer white, etc etc. Leave the characters the way they are, because it's not working!!!!
It's good to know that chapek won't course correct like a lot of heads on UA-cam swore he would. I hope he allows the continued bs so we can keep teaching them this lesson. Their failure is now my entertainment
All this is teaching them (Disney/ UA-camrs) is that it's still monetizable and it's of interest. Nothing ever will change until people finally move on.
Disney just thinks it is too big to fail....I think marvel has hit that over saturation like the arrowverse did where creator's personal beliefs and politics were far more important then the people who support there products the create....where fandom voices mean nothing since they are not the people they want to cater to, so basicly "they are not the cool kids".....
The thing is they KNEW this would happen, they literally followed the same path that slowly sank the comic industry for the past 15 years. Same lame characters, same focus on race and gender politics over good writing and characters that made droves of fans to ditch Marvel and DC and turn to manga and indie comics. They have nobody to blame but themselves.
Words never take theor plain meaning with ideologues. Thats how thry sucker in the normies while speaking directly to the initiated. Haven't really thought of it much this way before, but this behavior of the progressive, identitarian/intersectional woke left is basically that of a gnostic cult.
women liked the MCU because it had strong, charming, good looking leading men (Iron man, Cap, Thor ,Strange, Loki, Black Panther) swaping all of the men for women is not gonna have the effect they think it will, just like the WNBA has not doubled the interest in basketball.
So basically the MCU is being driven into the ground by the creatively uninspired bean counters and a guy who's gotten too big for his britches? Makes a whole lot of sense, and yes, it will blow up in their faces. It's almost like Disney forgot why they bought Star Wars and Marvel in the first place. They had already cornered the markets on family/kids in general and women girls. They bought the other two for the boys/men market. That was a winning strategy, but to work, that required things like Marvel and Star Wars to remain fundamentally what they are, action-adventure stories that heavily appeal to men and boys. That doesn't mean they can't try to expand their market, but it should have never come at the expense of the primary audience that brought them there in the first place, because that's the niche that filled a demand in the market. It literally always fails when something tries to be all things to everyone, especially when you try at the expense of what your built-in audience actually wants. Honestly, I hate to even "go there," but yet again, you can compare how the Big 2 in comics are doing the same thing in contrast to what manga and bande dessinee are doing. The Big 2 are trying to everything for everyone, and it doesn't work. The latter two understand that you need specific products targeting specific demographics. As this applies to the movies, what they need to do is allow things like Marvel and Star Wars to appeal to their audience, try to grow where you can, but always catering to their audience first. Then, if they really want to expand other markets, make new things or other franchises they already have to cater to those other auduences. This all things to all people marketing strategy feels as though it buys into the lie of infinite growth.
I think if DC wants to success they need to go along with the anti hero style. With the climax being The INJUSTICE movie. Atleast that something new and the could make excuses on men being evil
They will have an audience as long as they make stuff for that audience. Assuming you have a demographic after making something that demo hates is arrogant.
I can't say I blame them. All those idiots who were praising _Infinity War_ and Feige's leadership skills didn't seem to understand what that post credit scene was indicating. I did. There is no helping some people.
Appreciate you doing this, it's about time real people knew the truth, the mcu turned their back on the real fans for people that never cared about them to begin with.
Recent observation: There's a very famous photo (perhaps more than 1) of Stan Lee in his prime as editor-in-chief at Marvel Comics. He's standing in front of a wall rack of Marvel comic book covers. (I think the rack was on the wall behind his desk, according to a story told by Jim Steranko in his first meeting with Stan). There is Smili'n Stan, arms folded, and behind him are a set of the VERY, VERY diverse comic titles. (He told Steranko to "Pick one", title he wanted to work on.) Now without scrutinizing the titles in this photo, I do recall that Marvel (as well as DC) comics created and published an ever-expanding core of superhero titles but stretched out into many genres (romance, horror, comedy, rom-com Archie-competition). I used to cruise the comics racks, noting this, and just picked out what I wanted, interested me or could afford. There were lots of things that looked interesting (Phantom Stranger) but I'd look at but never buy. It strikes me that similarly, Kevin Figue stands in front of a wall with a bunch of movie titles and logos that they are working on for your rabid consumption. Instead of covers, he presents film clips and photos (previews) of their varied or expanding content and invites you to "pick one". In viewing the clips, like cruising the racks, I can see they make a lot of shit that is just not for me or being made for me. They've killed the core (Captain America, Iron Man, the Widow) and now make a lot of other goofy stuff that upon review, I aint buy'n, as per lack of interest or appeal. Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, Panther 2 with no T'Challa, Female Thor movies and What If cartoons are items not made for me at all. I realize they don't care that much about MY selective dollars. So, it's time (for me) to stop criticizing them for producing so much of this "woke" garbage (they're not going to stop) and ruining most of the things I like and "Pick one" of the stuff I Do like (which won't be much). They are out for new markets. My demographic is not important overall, and they've moved on. Me too.
"We already have that demographic, so let's chase these other ones with terrible niche products that dilute the brand" lol, lmao, etc at repeating the strat that worked so well for comics with zero reflection
Enforced woke narratives. It's not a big mystery. They've persistantly tried to gaslight and bully their core audience into accepting the new, woke narrative. RIP Marvel.
She-Hulk is a character I love. The show is a complete disaster. For as bad as they did She-Hulk, it's 10x worse for Titania. They can't even pronounce her name right. It's a derivative of Titanium. They either changed it to sound more black, or they're just that ignorant. And they also turned her from a heavy-hitting powerhouse that can go toe-to-toe with anyone into a real housewives knock off. I can't even describe the embarrassing level of disdain I have for the She-Hulk showrunners. Its probably equal to the disdain they have for me and the disdain they have for the medium of comic books.
She-Hulk was such a disaster. I figured it wouldn't have much in the way of traditional superheroics and was expecting a comedic exploration about how insane the legal system must be in the MCU. Unfortunately the writers realized they didn't know how to write courtroom scenes. Then they decided to put some "feminine rage" stuff in but it really didn't work. I'm sure being catcalled is annoying but despite that I think Jen Walters is still better off than her cousin. Besides if she really had that much repressed anger her Hulk form would be much more like Banner's. The end result was a superhero lawyer who wasn't a superhero and was barely a lawyer and came off as self-obsessed and petty. Why is she slagging off the Avengers after they just saved half the life in the universe?
In marketing, there are two sayings - 1) Your new customers look like your old customers, and 2) You get a bigger ROI spending your marketing dollars to retain your existing customers than trying to go after new ones. Kevin Feige is about to earn an F in Marketing 101.
For me it comes down to a matter of confidence. I am actually afraid to see X-Men--something I was excited about in the brief window after Endgame and before Phase 4--, and probably won't risk this level of frustration, just like I didn't risk Eternals, Shang Chi, Dr. Strange, Thor, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, Hawkeye, or Moon Knight. I currently have zero interest in seeing Black Panther II, even though Black Panther was my second-favorite non-Infinity movie after Winter Soldier. I'm done unless there's a radical overhaul. I just can't take seeing something I love so much destroyed, corrupted, mocked, or wokified.
i think disney plus show play a role too, people complain that movies are too short and rushed when they had the same exact runtime or even longer back in the infinity saga. The shows give us a 6+ hour film which helps with developing the story overall but when it comes to movies it makes their films look rushed
To me, the MCU was finished w/ Infinity War. I put up w/ them making a fool out the the Hulk in that one only in hopes he'd be redeemed in End Game but they made him into the biggest wimp of the bunch & made THOR a obese cry baby. Haven't watched End Game since I last 1st saw it in theaters & haven't seen any show/ film since. Disney destroys everything they touch.
My fourth grade teacher Mrs Wakefield gave me daredevil 38 in 1969 and I've been buying marvel comics and going to see the movies ever since. Right now they are destroying my favorite character Shehulk and I don't care what marvel does now I'm done.
Pushing for a new market is a good idea. Pushing for a new market at the expense of destroying most of your *current* market is Dumb and Dumber levels of stupid.
I havent seen a marvel property since Eternals. It was so meh, I just stopped worrying about it. Unfortunately I was sick so I missed the spider-man multiverse movie - but my kids saw it and loved it. Not watching marvel stuff at all and only buying a few books. Leaning into indies hard. Cancelled Disney+.
The moment Disney play with politics, they will lose profit, not only from China, but also from other countries, especially middle east. I wish Lightyear could've taught them that.
Many fans dipped out for Endgame. But to me what cemented the exit was Doctor Strange 2. That movie had the great potential to set up the Multiverse and literally hop to different universes and having many of the dark elements in each one. Especially coming off of Spider Man No Way Home. But what did they do? Prop up Wanda and Chavez to take over as said by many who've seen it. They ruined tons of chances for expansion due to them trying to kiss non-fans behind. Yes the Disney+ Shows was for those on the Twitter Tiktok Trend Train and for those disney shills to be happy and protect it. Many real fans and the General public left because of the awfulness of it. But DS2 actually prevented any sort of growth from happening and proves the MCU wants to flip the universe for female heroes to take over.
I'm a firm believer that the dynamite needs to explode in their face to trigger a recovery, i also think that having disney a monopoly in entertainment is a road that goes straight to a dystopian nightmare. America is unwilling to enforce big corp to split up no matter the danger so having them fail financially is the next best thing to bring order and hopefully some respect for the audience and customers back into the agenda. Also no matter what they do there definitely IS an huge superhero fatigue going on especially with the abysmal quality of the stuff they make. I actually liked both Thor and Dr Strange but it's pretty obvious those are pretty flawed productions, free vision with strict mandates doesn't work in movies, when all the movies have the same tone people don't care that much to watch the next one.
I dont agree when you say "they want to please everybody.." because old marvel pleased everybody. Now, theyre targetting specific imagined markets that DONT please everybody.. or anybody at all. Thats why theyre failing.
Wes I have a view from the "Inside". I was not involved in the talks your insider was, but a similar situation. I have been in the industry for over half a century. So, everyone is trying to deal with China. The U.S. market is so oversaturated, we all need new screens. One of the strategies discussed (at the meeting I was at, don't know about Marvel) is to create products that we beta test here in the states for different minority audiences, then try to appeal to the overseas market. For example, a show created to appeal to Chinese Americans, they hope to capture that market, then convince, somehow, China that these shows would be enjoyed by their audience. Now, I know this sounds a little hairbrained, but it's not my idea. But companies are desperate. I'm not sure where we're headed, but I assure you, it's not just Marvel in trouble.
The west is done with woke, the normies have finally waken up but apparently Disney didn't get the memo. This is your time DC, listen to the fans and you could dominate the next decade in film.
DC apparently doesn't understand their decade of failure was a natural result of bastardizing Superman (and Batman to a much lesser extent) in MoS and BvS if the rumors of bringing Cavill back are true. They are screwed.
@@jbbrolic I liked those movies a lot more than stuff like Aquaman, Wonder Woman 1984, or Shazam, but I want them to tie all that up and move on. It had highs and lows, but I'd rather see it start over honestly. It's so convoluted at this point. They should of just let Snyder finish what he started with the Darkseid plot. Let those fans have their bookend and the other fans could be getting a reboot with more traditional versions or the characters as we speak. Just put the 2000's Justice League versions of the characters on screen and you're liquid.
@@deadhouse3889 while I would agree that DC has made a lot of worse movies since, they may not have felt the need to experiment with junk like "Fantabulous Harley Quinn" if the Snyderverse trilogy wasn't box office disappointment, disappointment, bomb (MoS, BvS, Justice League.)
The problems started in Endgame. That film perfectly portrays the worst aspects of the MCU. It was like a warning sign of what was to come. No Way Home was only good because Sony had a hand in making it. Disney will continue to screw things up.
@@mutalemwananshiku4098 well, they owned the rights to the previous Spider-man films and probably didn't wanna see them be ruined. With Venom and Morbius they seem to just be throwing at the wall and seeing what sticks. I think Morbius was always doomed to fail, he would work better in someone else's film. They messed up Venom by trying to copy the MCU and their style of humor. Venom should've taken place in the amazing Spider-man universe. They needed to take it seriously, while also expanding on his world. They could have even had Eddie bumping into Flash Thompson, who joined the marines, setting up Agent Venom. Could've had Carnage be a Slasher horror film where Eddie tracks down Carnage through the aftermath of each slaughter. He slowly puts the pieces together of who Carnage is. There is so much they could've done with Venom, but they always seem to want to force it happen as quickly as possible, in as little films as possible.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp morbius could have worked if they did a better job and not phone it in. Nothing indicates sony was involved stopping any of the characters from being ruined.
That’s the same thing with Disney. They know that what they’re putting out there sucks but they’ll keep doing it because you have all those Disney adults that will eat up anything they put out. Only way to stop this mess is with your money
The creators thinking we gaf about their personal beliefs. We just want hero stories,not lectures. And I ain't coming back. The mcu is as dead as star wars now
I get that Marvel is trying to enter into new genres (what I think the source means by "diversity of behavior"). But the problem is a) the stuff they're releasing for superhero fans isn't great and hasn't been for a couple years and b) they're not creating new IP to enter new genres--they're taking superheroic IP with the same names and characters and doing stuff like She-Hulk *without officially announcing that the new product isn't targeted at people who like standard superhero fare*. It's like if DC decided they wanted to get back into romance comics and just casually changed the Flash, Suicide Squad, and Wonder Woman comics to be romance books without clearly announcing that (or giving fans of those characters some other place to go).
They don't have to announce anything because super hero isn't just one single genre or one specific formula. It can be mutiple things depending on the story. They have the standard super hero action but also be comedic, a romance, a space adventure and so on. Most of the MCU films and series do this Captain America, Iron Man and Black Panther films are political thrillers Thor films are fantasy/sci-fy adventure Guardians of the Galaxy a space opera Shang Chi is martial arts film Spider Man is teenager drama.
Failure is due to making movie/TV series of lower level superheros. Disney turning comic books into sitcoms in Ms Marvel/She-Hulk. Marvel fatigue due to over abundance of movies.
There are some very good points here. I think we all recognize that it's a numbers game, and that Disney is looking at the largest demographic within their overall audience and investing in keeping them engaged. The primary demo for the MCU (40%) is millennials. 25% of the Marvel fanbase is a combination of baby boomers & Gen Xers, while Gen Zers account for just 9% of Marvel fans. I can easily see teams of Disney marketing and advertising people studying the political motivators of their largest pocket consumer, and banking on the importance of social issues to that one demographic even if it is irksome to a rather vocal subset of Boomers & Gen Xers. So if we were to make a kind of political division and assume that half of the Boomers and Gen Xers are against the Diversity push, we are looking at 12% of the overall fanbase. No corporation makes decisions on behalf of that small of a dissenting opinion -especially not if they truly believe it to be a minority point of view. From a point of accurate representation, those who have a problem with the progressive stance on gender and special interest would do better to quiet the more bigoted voices among their ranks and stake their claim on data that corporations actually review. Because there is plenty of data. For instance, roughly half (50%) of the United States' population is male and half is female. About 0.5% of adults 18-24 identify as transgender, and 0.3% of adults 65 and older identify as transgender. That's less than 1/2 of one percent of the US population. So fair representation on screen would be less than 1 transgender character per 200 non-trans characters. That same 0.4% is included as part of the total percentage of Americans that identifies as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, which is 5.6%, but when asked what portion of the population is LGBT, most Americans overestimate that number to be 24%. So rather than one-in-seventeen characters on screen presented as LGBT, we are sometimes seeing one-in-four (or more). In Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness we open on a wedding between a Caucasian Woman and an African-American Man. 4.6% of married Black American women and 10.8% of married Black American men had a non-Black spouse. 8.5% of married Black men and 3.9% of married Black women had a White spouse. So that on-screen coupling is representative of less than 9% of marriages in the USA. The only other married couple to get any screen time in that film are America Chavez' two moms. One in 10 LGBT Americans are married to a same-sex spouse. That's 10% of 5.6% of the US population, or one in 178 Americans (which would be two of 356). Combined, those two on-screen relationships is incalculably misrepresentative of current American marriage statistics, since 100% of the marriages depicted are non-representative of the most common couplings in our society. In Thor: Love and Thunder, there are four primary heroes: Thor, Jane, Valkyrie, Korg. One-half of them is presented as LGBT, which is more than double the perceived percentage -and nine times the actual LGBT population in the USA. That is a 900% over-representation. Overcompensation is a common form of restitution. It is generally acceptable to initiate some kind of affirmative action in order to right a wrong, but when the scales tip too far in the other direction the cure becomes worse than the condition that required it and support for such programs diminishes; intentions of goodwill can breed resentment. While there is certainly bigotry in this country, it's an over-simplification (and disingenuous) to assume bigotry as the primary opposition to diversity. I think the push-back is something of a referendum on fairness -actual and perceived, and framing the complaint in these terms is much more likely to lead to better representation overall.
Not sure movie going audiences know or care about the difference between Marvel and DC. The novelty of the Superhero Movie has worn off. It doesn't help that Disney/Marvel keep essentially remaking The Lion King and DC blunders into darkness each time, confused with their own property. The superheroes work perfectly as a TV series instead of a movie, and streaming services might keep the superhero shows going. Current events suggest light romantic comedies and revolutionary heroes might do better at the box office now.
By doing what he is doing, Chapek and Feige are driving more people away. Disney has forgotten that customer service is king. What customer service are they providing? Are women really watching She Hulk? I'm not. To me it looks horrible. (I'm a woman). Marvel use to be something, now its got really nothing. Its not building like it did. By the time Feige does a "big" no-expense made movie, will anyone care?
Right now I will place this information under "highly plausible". As the information seems right on the nose, but I still wouldn't place this source as "highly credible".
Honestly this seems like great analysis in that it digs below the surface. Big Corporations don't have morals they want to expand market share. I do think they can right the ship...certainly in my book a lot of the upcoming projects look better but also it helps that DC seems unlikely to get its **** together anytime soon.
They are pushing alphabetism and ultra-liberalism, especially to young girls and nonwhites. Moderates and conservatives need to boycott until this company is bought by someone else.
Phase 1 - was great, Just pure fun movies
Phase 2 - was very hit & miss IMO, "Winter Soldier & GOTG" were great but everything else wasn't very good
Phase 3 - was Poor aside from "Civil War", "Infinity War" & "Endgame" I thought the rest blew
Phase 4 - No Way Home was great but the rest SUCK
I don't know about any of the Disney+ series as I don't watch em
D+ tv shows mostly start strong with good ideas, but quickly deteriorate into man bad woman good!
Except Moon Knight, who was sabotaged immediately. I quit on episode 2 of Hawkeye and Moon Knight and haven't watched anything since.
The Russo Bros basically carried phase 3
I like pretty much everything in Phase 1 and 2 including Iron Man 3 and Dark World. Phase 3 I agree except I thought Endgame was awful, I stopped watching after about 30 minutes and accepted "Thanos wins" as the end of the MCU.
I thought civil war was boring and endgame sucked
@@jbbrolic I don't have the love many have for Endgame but I don't hate it (I'd say 6/10).
It DRAGS in the middle and it's got many cringe moments.
thing is, the audience WAS growing. from iron man 1 to endgame the audience grew massively. all kinds of people who would never watch a superhero movie went to watch superhero movies because there was an ongoing plot and some quality. now the core audience is feeling alienated and the diversity audience isn't interested.
This is true. Some of this leak is garbled. China shut out Disney after Disney went hard into identity politics (CM and Disney Star Wars for example), not before. Also, Disney didn't go for "diversity of behavior" until Thor 4 and She-Hulk which sound gross for Disney. (Apparetly, Andor also is a move into gross.) Though I suspect this mostly means pro-alphabet. Woke money (ESG) is the true cause.
I wonder if China was the reason I didn't like the Russo Av movies (CW, IW, En). They are anti-individual and feel like Asian dramas, not superhero comics.
I don’t even think it has anything to do with the core audience feeling alienated. I feel like it has more to do with them being disinterested. It’s always the same film with a different coat of paint slapped on. It’s time Marvel took some risks.
@@tomcruisenukedmyaccount5388 I think the problem between phase 1 and what came later was that the entire character of the MCU changed. It started with movies about individuals. Iron Man. Thor. Captain America. One character led the story and we saw real change going on. Thereafter, especially following the first Avengers movie, it changed dramatically. The first Avengers was fine, they still had time for the characters to grow and get their moment in the sun, but after that, the movies stopped being about individuals and started being about groups. Iron Man movies weren't about Iron Man anymore. They stopped being about individuals and started to be about ensemble casts and by the time you got to Endgame, there were so many characters that you couldn't even tell stories about them all. There wasn't any time. That scene in Endgame where everyone came back from the dead is a perfect example. Who even knows who all of those people are? Who even cares? They get 30 seconds of screen time, if that and then they're gone. Most of them don't even get to speak a line of dialogue. It's just CGI porn and I am ever so sick of that. It went from "watch my movie" to "buy all of these action figures" and if you notice, since Disney took over, action figure sales for Marvel and Star Wars are both in the toilet because nobody cares anymore. They have done themselves in. They have nobody to blame but themselves.
The same damn thing happened to Star Wars. When George owned it, at least he cared about telling an amazing story with characters we grew to love. Now with Darth Kathleen in charge, it's 'consume our product and political propaganda, or you're a bad person!'
@@BitchspotBlog Those are good points. Endgame is horrendous. Many of the Fox X movies also have the problem of to many characters (Dark Phoenix is underrated). While Whedon portrayed characters with flaws, he maintained the Avengers' heroism. The Russo Av movies (not including WS) are anti-individual on a deep level. When I rewatched CW and IW, I felt they were made for people who dislike individualism and American heroes. Thor 3 and 4 and the Disney Spider-Man movies are similar.
The MCU succeeded because it was based on the comics from 1961-2015
Phase 4 failed because it was based on the comics from 2015 onwards
🎵🎵🎵 ding ding ding🎵🎵🎵 you win the prize for the day!
This is a good take
Not just legacy characters but also D list characters from old Marvel Comics that nobody cares
EXACTLY ! VERY VERY TRUE !
The old comics was (and still is) a treasure trove of superhero stories & artwork 👍👍👍👍 !
The comics from 2015 onwards with its focus on forced diversity & representation rather than good storytelling is garbage 👎👎👎👎 !
This makes sense, tired of hearing people saying its because diversity. When marvel was set up on diversity
Thomas Sowell has a book he published on Economics. It covers the history of many companies who thought they were too big to fail and one thing you need to take from history is if you don't learn from it, prepare to repeat it. These companies are doing the same thing with the same attitude and same actions. They think everything is going to play out just like they plan it, but they forget that there are more elements out of their control than there are in their control.
Disney deserves every failure and cut to their conglomerate imaginable. I don't trust _any_ Disney-owned corporation to not feed me bullshit everywhere I look.
A big part of the problem isn't the forced diversity on the screen, it's the forced diversity of the screen when writers must reflect the race and gender of the characters on the screen. You have people who have no business writing Superhero stories writing for very prominent shows, movies and comic books.
Exhibit A: MCU She-Hulk.
@@charlesws7825 She-Hulk first appeared in 1980.
It's the lazy, often young and idealistic (read as dumb) writers pushing their ideals as hard as they can.
And rather than pay for actual writing talent Disney wants to push agendas with cheap hipster writers while hemorrhaging money.
The executives are incompetent. Bad writers are cheap.
And so is Disney.
@@charlesws7825 I’m so upset with what they did with She-Hulk.
@@MS7000_ Just take comfort in this: it's nothing but an overrated actress and a big CGI rage monster trying to be She-Hulk, but failing in every sense! I might as well get as mad at her as I did at George Clooney for making Batman look so damn campy, I couldn't even watch him. Heck, I could take Adam West all the way seriously as Batman ANY day!
When good writing fails, actors cannot save this mess. Bring back talent and heart, the people will come back
Totally agree, even if it’s sounding sentimental or some, I think heart plays a big part.
Feige for example, sure he can’t be perfect like everyone, but he’s doing it for so long with the passion behind it.
And he can’t be everywhere, so yeah, like good and some bad comics you have good movies and some bad movies !
Case in point, Christian Bale.
@AREA35Gold, Feige is an overrated hack, who rode on the curtails of Jon Favreau and Joss Whedon in creating the MCU.He's not a fanboy like everyone does think he is. He's a fraud.
@@markmolino679 I doubt you know him that close, but anyway there’s always a lot of people involved and he got up to a leading one.
Marvel wasn’t build with one Person doh, plus here and there are some mistakes made, whatever, it’s not like DCEU or what it’s called for example.
It sounds simple, but understanding the basics of the human condition and giving us the ability to be part of that world is how you capture hearts and minds into your work, imagine how far we've fallen if that can't even get that right.
They think "diversity" is a selling point? 🙄
They keep f🤬king around and soon they'll find out...
Kevin Feige's ego is gonna be the death of him if he keeps this up
popcorn
So, I'm for diversity. Geeks really have always been diverse.
What's terrible right now is the character are paper flat narcissists.
Having diverse characters with heroic traits would be great, but they’re writen as horrible resentful people with strawman antagonist.
The companies turned art into advertising.
You sound like the problem. Diversity doesn't mean what you think it means.
X - Men. More diversity is not possible. And if Disney had noticed that, they would have saved themselves a lot of stress. 🙄
I'm an Econ teacher. You LISTEN to the people, then you SUPPLY what they are DEMANDING....and you DON'T BAIT AND SWITCH on Consumers.
Honestly, it doesn't even take advanced knowledge of economics to get this. It feels like they've bought the lie of infinite growth.
Say what?!!?!?
Mindblowing!
What's scary is the films are now based on the All New All Different era of comics. You know one of the most critically panned eras for Marvel
LOL, Feige thinks that he can weather the loss of the original fanbase and then buy us back later? That hasn't even been done in the comics yet, and it's been 7 years!
they pulled something like that with NWH, heck if the rumors of Tom Cruise and Hugh Jackman in DS2 were real that film would have done a lot more, sadly people really fall for those types of things.
Yeah, they have already tried that in the comics and failed magnificantly.
Yeah, god knows that Marvel has had decades of incredible source material for Kevin to draw upon...and he has to go with the 'world outside your window' crap ranging from Kamala Khan (how many series has she had cancelled?) to only slightly better stuff like Kate Bishop, who I'll never call Hawkeye!
They're pandering to a small minority who already doesnt buy in..while Theyre pissing off and ignoring the fans who do.
The same model is tanking Marvel comics.
It's not a mystery at all.
It sounds to me that the idea that "you can't please everyone" completely goes over everyone's head.
Solid video Wes!
Feige made the mistake in not understanding the meaning of "If something isn't broken don't fix it."
With the Fantastic Four, X-Men and all the characters related to those properties, I've always believed that the MCU could have continued to be just as successful if not more so after 'Endgame'
But he chose to go the route of making the MCU into what the comics are now...a lifestyle brand.
Yeah, he was trying to force Captain marvel into the films for years.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Exactly, and look how that turned out for him.
Personally, I don't think Kevin Feige propelled the MCU this high. It was really the Russo brothers and some other director I forget the name of.
@@anayos6726 Well don't forget about Jon Favureau and Joss Whedon, as well as James Gunn. Feige was more of the business man.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Can't believe I forgot Favureau, though i'm not a fan of Joss Whedon's slapstick "humor."
They’re so focused on growth despite having a consistent healthy harvest. When you grow a fruit larger than it should be it starts to lose its flavour.
I groaned at that A-Force scene. So ridiculous… I didn’t know that was heralding the end.
As a female/ earlier generation feminist, I think She Hulk is insulting and boring dog shit.
So sad how far the MCU has fallen. Looking back, I feel like phase 1 was the best phase. Yeah there was some humor sprinkled in (esecially Avengers, which ended up being the template for most of the MCU tropes we know now) but those movies had more heart and respected the source material. When agendas and "the message" take precedence over good storytelling, companies always fail yet they keep doing it for some reason. It's like they enjoy losing money. I support diversity but it can't be forced and it can be done in a way where you don't sacrifice storytelling and character development.
It was. The first Iron Man is still my favorite MCU movie. Now, I don't even watch them.
Let it fall. Disney needs to learn a HARD lesson, I just hope it happens before they sully and ruin the X-Men in film. The only reason Spiderman: No Way Home worked was because Sony was involved.
I don't think that's true at all. Have you seen their other movies? Sony isn't exactly known for its consistency in quality. When they put out a good movie, it's entirely because they just so happen to have good talent involved. The arrangement between the two companies is that Marvel Studios is basically creatively responsible, and Sony has to simply sign off on it or provide producer's notes on recommended changes, but it is still a part of the Marvel Studios story. This movie definitely fits the pattern described in this video with the reliance on nostalgia/fan service. The reason the movie was good was because the talent attached to it also happened to be good.
Sony marvels have equal trash or worse. Morbius, venom, Spider-Man 3 were trash
In my circle of friends I've become the negative person when it comes to comic books. My friends say I complain too much and don't just enjoy what DC and marvel give me. I tell them I've been a comicbook fan since my parents gave me a green lantern comic book in 1980.
It pains me to feel that DC and marvel don't care what I want anymore. They've catered to everyone except the long time comic book fans
Very well done on the editing
All thanks to Jimmy!
My moment of realization was watching Love and Thunder, along with the first She Hulk episode. Crappy comedy with zero character development or just repeated arcs. Why not do more crossovers between movies? Like a three movie arc with villains that are actually threatening? It’s like Disney is finding the cheapest way to entertain us, but totaling failing at it.
The China angle makes sense, Disney tried to court Chinese audiences with western sensibilities for years but it never worked, and then Mulan bombed and worse, the director went political and hurt Disney's chances even further, no wonder they pushed the brakes on Disney after that.
There is a lack of balance in leadership. The people that truly cared and paid attention to the little details either left or were pushed out.
Trying to resuscitate a brand can be much more challenging than building one. Even if they pivot back to the actual fans, many will just move on and Disney will lose them forever. Lesson: never take your customers for granted.
Feige have lost the plot completely.
Like how do you manage to screw up a show based on She-Hulk? A character everyone loves.
Do you remember when Stan Lee, who notoriously did exceedingly little, quit Marvel creative and editorial, then headed off to Hollywood to get Marvel projects off the ground while the "Stan Lee presents" tag was put onto every single book so that everyone Lee was courting would look at Marvel and think it a cohesive and intelligible world and brand for the perception that Stan was the father of it all and in control of everything?
They did it again, this time with Kevin Feige. Feige was installed in a position and the propaganda began rolling in about how he was the singular visionary behind the MCU, then he was put in charge of all Marvel for the illusion to be complete.
Look at all of his credits before Iron Man and be honest, could Feige really pull anything like an MCU off? And if he could, how difficult could it be and how much work is it really if he was able to mastermind it all?
No one wants to talk about this but they really should, because the past is the best indicator of the future and we know exactly what Marvel will do so they can be successful in film and television, because they did it already with Stan Lee, a notorious and remorseless thief. It is documented what happened and why "Stan Lee presents" ever existed. We now have "Kevin Feige presents," only no one buys the books anymore so it was put everywhere else.
Not pleasing the fans does not equal bad writing, or really bad writing. But for some reason, appealing to this “new audience” does…. Make that make sense…
Marvel: the majority of ticket sales on growth would be from China, the biggest market in the world.
Tom Cruise: huh???? Odd, my movie made over a billion dollars and didn’t show in a single theater in China.
Tom Cruise: what were you thinking?
Disney: you told me not to think!
But they aren't thinking about a Billion. They are thinking 2 Billion plus. That's the "growth" they are thinking about
What’s confusing is when Disney bought Star Wars and Marvel, it was designed to increase their share of the boy market, because they already had the girl market sewn up so well, and then the first thing they do is try to make them more for girls. There’s nothing wrong with trying to get as many people as you possibly can, but they only seem to know how to do it in a way that turns off the audience they already had in pursuit of a different one. If you lose one for every one you get, you’ve gained nothing.
I think it was a lack of creativity more than anything else. Before Disney bought Pixar, they were running out of steam. Buying Pixar gave them a few more years. It's the same thing with Marvel and Star Wars.
A) not ending w/Endgame
B) trying to elevate Z listers to A list status.
The new MCU is killing action figures. I recently saw some Marvel Legends Love and Thunder Thors on clearance for $12 at Target.
Too expensive still
I got my nephew a He-man on clearance for $3 the other day. $12 should be the regular price, it's strange that Marvel pretty much makes action figures for adults now (considering the Legends go for $30.)
@@anotterwithaphone3077 agreed lol
When you burn your consumers so many times, subvert expectations, bait and switch, and, above all else, alienate everyone by trying to please everyone it's hard for them to come back. Marvel/Pixar/Lucas Films/ Disney is falling down a slippery slope with continued nepotism and it's on them in the end. Will it get back to where we want it to be? I dunno. And it is sad.
How to stop this
Stop Watching this and watch old material.
You know what this feels like? It’s like a guy who was moderately cute in high school, and picked up a girlfriend who liked him how he was, and loved to see him grow and progress, helping him out in the process, and sticking by him through the stumbles.
The years pass, the guy gets very good looking, very popular and very successful, and now other girls are paying attention. He starts cheating around, changing behaviours and appearance to get those one night stands, taking his original girl for granted.
Then, the girl has enough, leaves and the guy is left with the shallow girls who only wanted a one and done deal with him.
That’s the MCU. They had us, but they wanted to pander to markets who couldn’t care less, and lost us along the way after a decade’s worth of loyalty.
For me the "MCU" ended with "Infinity War" and The Horrible "M SHE U" Started with"Captain Marvel".
Phases 4, 5 and 6 are not recoverable at this point, things are too broken to fix for the next +5 years.
The characters in these phases are not interesting and not what fans or casuals are going to want to see. If the fans are out, the casuals will only linger for so long.
They're at DC levels of crisis rebooting before they'll recover.
I hate to say it, but like you mentioned, Kevin has been proven right, so far. Sure he hasn’t gotten the viewership they would have loved to see, but the narrative and possibly even the demographic is there. People still see these awful shows as just not for them, but for a specific group, and that group almost seem to enjoy these products. And the worst of it all is that all he has to do is jingle the keys and it has worked from the most normie of MCU fans to the most die-hard Comic book fans. The only way it stops is if we say no to it all.
I don't think that's necessarily true that "those audiences seem to be enjoying these products." They express approval of these products on Twitter and largely don't actually watch them. That's why they're all not getting the desired views. I also don't think the fan service route is going to work for much longer. Fan service devoid of actual meaning and substance is ultimately going to sour their core audience even on the things that are actually supposed to be made for them. It worked for Spider-Man: No Way Home because that actually turned out to be a pretty good movie. It wasn't just hollow fan-service for the sake of fan service unlike Dr. Strange & the Multiverse of Madness.
He needs go. He's destroyed the black panther, he's made thor a wimp, he's putting in characters in new shows who's comics have been canceled over and over again and thinks we will bow down to his will. I've been a marvel since Spiderman came out in amazing tales. The destruction this man is doing is making people turn away and maybe not come back. He listened to the Twitter mob and not the fans and think race swapping is good!!! I grew up with a white wonderman, Namor being atlantian not mayan!!Mayan!!! Kang the conquerer white, etc etc. Leave the characters the way they are, because it's not working!!!!
Telling your core fan base to piss off will kill a franchise every time.
It's good to know that chapek won't course correct like a lot of heads on UA-cam swore he would. I hope he allows the continued bs so we can keep teaching them this lesson. Their failure is now my entertainment
All this is teaching them (Disney/ UA-camrs) is that it's still monetizable and it's of interest. Nothing ever will change until people finally move on.
@@DonreparD apathy is the cure
@@bigboss4425 Couldn't hurt.
People should realize that Fukushima left the building.
Disney just thinks it is too big to fail....I think marvel has hit that over saturation like the arrowverse did where creator's personal beliefs and politics were far more important then the people who support there products the create....where fandom voices mean nothing since they are not the people they want to cater to, so basicly "they are not the cool kids".....
The thing is they KNEW this would happen, they literally followed the same path that slowly sank the comic industry for the past 15 years. Same lame characters, same focus on race and gender politics over good writing and characters that made droves of fans to ditch Marvel and DC and turn to manga and indie comics. They have nobody to blame but themselves.
It’s crazy that this is what they think diversity means.
Words never take theor plain meaning with ideologues. Thats how thry sucker in the normies while speaking directly to the initiated. Haven't really thought of it much this way before, but this behavior of the progressive, identitarian/intersectional woke left is basically that of a gnostic cult.
women liked the MCU because it had strong, charming, good looking leading men (Iron man, Cap, Thor ,Strange, Loki, Black Panther) swaping all of the men for women is not gonna have the effect they think it will, just like the WNBA has not doubled the interest in basketball.
Either Die a Hero, or Live Long enough to become the Villain.
Disney needs to fire their Marketing team.
"Our box office sales are slipping. What should we do?"
"Let's try this thing that _literally never works_ "
"Sounds great!"
So basically the MCU is being driven into the ground by the creatively uninspired bean counters and a guy who's gotten too big for his britches? Makes a whole lot of sense, and yes, it will blow up in their faces. It's almost like Disney forgot why they bought Star Wars and Marvel in the first place. They had already cornered the markets on family/kids in general and women girls. They bought the other two for the boys/men market. That was a winning strategy, but to work, that required things like Marvel and Star Wars to remain fundamentally what they are, action-adventure stories that heavily appeal to men and boys. That doesn't mean they can't try to expand their market, but it should have never come at the expense of the primary audience that brought them there in the first place, because that's the niche that filled a demand in the market. It literally always fails when something tries to be all things to everyone, especially when you try at the expense of what your built-in audience actually wants. Honestly, I hate to even "go there," but yet again, you can compare how the Big 2 in comics are doing the same thing in contrast to what manga and bande dessinee are doing. The Big 2 are trying to everything for everyone, and it doesn't work. The latter two understand that you need specific products targeting specific demographics. As this applies to the movies, what they need to do is allow things like Marvel and Star Wars to appeal to their audience, try to grow where you can, but always catering to their audience first. Then, if they really want to expand other markets, make new things or other franchises they already have to cater to those other auduences. This all things to all people marketing strategy feels as though it buys into the lie of infinite growth.
Can’t say we didn’t see this coming. Like a lot of people we checked out of the MCU after Infinity War and out of Disney right around the same time.
WB/DC has a second chance
I sincerely hope they take advantage of it.
I think if DC wants to success they need to go along with the anti hero style. With the climax being The INJUSTICE movie. Atleast that something new and the could make excuses on men being evil
Marvel is just rudderless now. Diversity by itself isn't a strategy.
Its not a strategy. It is an agenda. It is failing and it will continue to fail.
They will have an audience as long as they make stuff for that audience. Assuming you have a demographic after making something that demo hates is arrogant.
I can't say I blame them. All those idiots who were praising _Infinity War_ and Feige's leadership skills didn't seem to understand what that post credit scene was indicating.
I did. There is no helping some people.
Appreciate you doing this, it's about time real people knew the truth, the mcu turned their back on the real fans for people that never cared about them to begin with.
Recent observation: There's a very famous photo (perhaps more than 1) of Stan Lee in his prime as editor-in-chief at Marvel Comics. He's standing in front of a wall rack of Marvel comic book covers. (I think the rack was on the wall behind his desk, according to a story told by Jim Steranko in his first meeting with Stan). There is Smili'n Stan, arms folded, and behind him are a set of the VERY, VERY diverse comic titles. (He told Steranko to "Pick one", title he wanted to work on.) Now without scrutinizing the titles in this photo, I do recall that Marvel (as well as DC) comics created and published an ever-expanding core of superhero titles but stretched out into many genres (romance, horror, comedy, rom-com Archie-competition). I used to cruise the comics racks, noting this, and just picked out what I wanted, interested me or could afford. There were lots of things that looked interesting (Phantom Stranger) but I'd look at but never buy.
It strikes me that similarly, Kevin Figue stands in front of a wall with a bunch of movie titles and logos that they are working on for your rabid consumption. Instead of covers, he presents film clips and photos (previews) of their varied or expanding content and invites you to "pick one". In viewing the clips, like cruising the racks, I can see they make a lot of shit that is just not for me or being made for me. They've killed the core (Captain America, Iron Man, the Widow) and now make a lot of other goofy stuff that upon review, I aint buy'n, as per lack of interest or appeal. Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, Panther 2 with no T'Challa, Female Thor movies and What If cartoons are items not made for me at all. I realize they don't care that much about MY selective dollars. So, it's time (for me) to stop criticizing them for producing so much of this "woke" garbage (they're not going to stop) and ruining most of the things I like and "Pick one" of the stuff I Do like (which won't be much). They are out for new markets. My demographic is not important overall, and they've moved on. Me too.
No Way Home was Sony not Feige.
Feige & Alonzo don't have a clue!
Valiant Renegade on his channel had WDW pro and talked about this. Great conversation
This somehow makes me glad that Spider-Man still hasn't been bought by Disney despite Sony being a bunch of fuck ups💀
"We already have that demographic, so let's chase these other ones with terrible niche products that dilute the brand"
lol, lmao, etc at repeating the strat that worked so well for comics with zero reflection
Because that strategy worked so well with Star Wars. Wait...
Great video Wes. Great. Don't know how I missed it months ago, but its even MORE relevant now.
Taking for granted that old fans will stick with you no matter what. That isn't working in the comic book industry...
Enforced woke narratives. It's not a big mystery. They've persistantly tried to gaslight and bully their core audience into accepting the new, woke narrative. RIP Marvel.
She-Hulk is a character I love. The show is a complete disaster. For as bad as they did She-Hulk, it's 10x worse for Titania. They can't even pronounce her name right. It's a derivative of Titanium. They either changed it to sound more black, or they're just that ignorant. And they also turned her from a heavy-hitting powerhouse that can go toe-to-toe with anyone into a real housewives knock off. I can't even describe the embarrassing level of disdain I have for the She-Hulk showrunners. Its probably equal to the disdain they have for me and the disdain they have for the medium of comic books.
She-Hulk was such a disaster. I figured it wouldn't have much in the way of traditional superheroics and was expecting a comedic exploration about how insane the legal system must be in the MCU. Unfortunately the writers realized they didn't know how to write courtroom scenes. Then they decided to put some "feminine rage" stuff in but it really didn't work. I'm sure being catcalled is annoying but despite that I think Jen Walters is still better off than her cousin. Besides if she really had that much repressed anger her Hulk form would be much more like Banner's. The end result was a superhero lawyer who wasn't a superhero and was barely a lawyer and came off as self-obsessed and petty. Why is she slagging off the Avengers after they just saved half the life in the universe?
In marketing, there are two sayings - 1) Your new customers look like your old customers, and 2) You get a bigger ROI spending your marketing dollars to retain your existing customers than trying to go after new ones. Kevin Feige is about to earn an F in Marketing 101.
Marvel shouldn't looking for diversity. The fans are the only ones who really important. 💪
For me it comes down to a matter of confidence. I am actually afraid to see X-Men--something I was excited about in the brief window after Endgame and before Phase 4--, and probably won't risk this level of frustration, just like I didn't risk Eternals, Shang Chi, Dr. Strange, Thor, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, Hawkeye, or Moon Knight. I currently have zero interest in seeing Black Panther II, even though Black Panther was my second-favorite non-Infinity movie after Winter Soldier. I'm done unless there's a radical overhaul. I just can't take seeing something I love so much destroyed, corrupted, mocked, or wokified.
i think disney plus show play a role too, people complain that movies are too short and rushed when they had the same exact runtime or even longer back in the infinity saga. The shows give us a 6+ hour film which helps with developing the story overall but when it comes to movies it makes their films look rushed
So basically they are taking all the people who made them big in the first place for granted? Good luck with that Disney.
To me, the MCU was finished w/ Infinity War. I put up w/ them making a fool out the the Hulk in that one only in hopes he'd be redeemed in End Game but they made him into the biggest wimp of the bunch & made THOR a obese cry baby. Haven't watched End Game since I last 1st saw it in theaters & haven't seen any show/ film since. Disney destroys everything they touch.
My fourth grade teacher Mrs Wakefield gave me daredevil 38 in 1969 and I've been buying marvel comics and going to see the movies ever since. Right now they are destroying my favorite character Shehulk and I don't care what marvel does now I'm done.
I got that issue. Hit the stands in January 1968. Doc doom switches places with dd, crosses over to ff73
Pushing for a new market is a good idea. Pushing for a new market at the expense of destroying most of your *current* market is Dumb and Dumber levels of stupid.
Fans: this show is diversity done badly that offends the characters/fans
Disney: consume peasants!!!
no, us fans will not stick around, we will abandon the MCU completely, like we are doing now.
I havent seen a marvel property since Eternals. It was so meh, I just stopped worrying about it. Unfortunately I was sick so I missed the spider-man multiverse movie - but my kids saw it and loved it. Not watching marvel stuff at all and only buying a few books. Leaning into indies hard. Cancelled Disney+.
The moment Disney play with politics, they will lose profit, not only from China, but also from other countries, especially middle east. I wish Lightyear could've taught them that.
You're doing good work here, sir. You're like a mad prophet of pop-culture doom. And your comic recommendations in other videos are solid. Keep it up.
Many fans dipped out for Endgame. But to me what cemented the exit was Doctor Strange 2.
That movie had the great potential to set up the Multiverse and literally hop to different universes and having many of the dark elements in each one. Especially coming off of Spider Man No Way Home. But what did they do? Prop up Wanda and Chavez to take over as said by many who've seen it. They ruined tons of chances for expansion due to them trying to kiss non-fans behind.
Yes the Disney+ Shows was for those on the Twitter Tiktok Trend Train and for those disney shills to be happy and protect it. Many real fans and the General public left because of the awfulness of it. But DS2 actually prevented any sort of growth from happening and proves the MCU wants to flip the universe for female heroes to take over.
Yeah, I think they trashed it. I don't know how to fix it either. Maybe a magic mcguffin with the Sentry.
I'm a firm believer that the dynamite needs to explode in their face to trigger a recovery, i also think that having disney a monopoly in entertainment is a road that goes straight to a dystopian nightmare.
America is unwilling to enforce big corp to split up no matter the danger so having them fail financially is the next best thing to bring order and hopefully some respect for the audience and customers back into the agenda.
Also no matter what they do there definitely IS an huge superhero fatigue going on especially with the abysmal quality of the stuff they make.
I actually liked both Thor and Dr Strange but it's pretty obvious those are pretty flawed productions, free vision with strict mandates doesn't work in movies, when all the movies have the same tone people don't care that much to watch the next one.
Captain Marvel was the beginning of the end for me.
I liked it, though I did feel it was odd, making the Skrulls the innocent victims.
@@verilyheld agreed that took me out of it
I dont agree when you say "they want to please everybody.." because old marvel pleased everybody. Now, theyre targetting specific imagined markets that DONT please everybody.. or anybody at all. Thats why theyre failing.
Wes
I have a view from the "Inside".
I was not involved in the talks your insider was, but a similar situation. I have been in the industry for over half a century.
So, everyone is trying to deal with China. The U.S. market is so oversaturated, we all need new screens. One of the strategies discussed (at the meeting I was at, don't know about Marvel) is to create products that we beta test here in the states for different minority audiences, then try to appeal to the overseas market.
For example, a show created to appeal to Chinese Americans, they hope to capture that market, then convince, somehow, China that these shows would be enjoyed by their audience.
Now, I know this sounds a little hairbrained, but it's not my idea. But companies are desperate.
I'm not sure where we're headed, but I assure you, it's not just Marvel in trouble.
The west is done with woke, the normies have finally waken up but apparently Disney didn't get the memo. This is your time DC, listen to the fans and you could dominate the next decade in film.
DC apparently doesn't understand their decade of failure was a natural result of bastardizing Superman (and Batman to a much lesser extent) in MoS and BvS if the rumors of bringing Cavill back are true. They are screwed.
@@jbbrolic I liked those movies a lot more than stuff like Aquaman, Wonder Woman 1984, or Shazam, but I want them to tie all that up and move on. It had highs and lows, but I'd rather see it start over honestly. It's so convoluted at this point. They should of just let Snyder finish what he started with the Darkseid plot. Let those fans have their bookend and the other fans could be getting a reboot with more traditional versions or the characters as we speak. Just put the 2000's Justice League versions of the characters on screen and you're liquid.
@@deadhouse3889 while I would agree that DC has made a lot of worse movies since, they may not have felt the need to experiment with junk like "Fantabulous Harley Quinn" if the Snyderverse trilogy wasn't box office disappointment, disappointment, bomb (MoS, BvS, Justice League.)
The problems started in Endgame. That film perfectly portrays the worst aspects of the MCU. It was like a warning sign of what was to come. No Way Home was only good because Sony had a hand in making it. Disney will continue to screw things up.
Considering how well sony handled morbius anf the venom movies im not sure u should thank sony.
@@mutalemwananshiku4098 well, they owned the rights to the previous Spider-man films and probably didn't wanna see them be ruined. With Venom and Morbius they seem to just be throwing at the wall and seeing what sticks.
I think Morbius was always doomed to fail, he would work better in someone else's film. They messed up Venom by trying to copy the MCU and their style of humor. Venom should've taken place in the amazing Spider-man universe. They needed to take it seriously, while also expanding on his world. They could have even had Eddie bumping into Flash Thompson, who joined the marines, setting up Agent Venom. Could've had Carnage be a Slasher horror film where Eddie tracks down Carnage through the aftermath of each slaughter. He slowly puts the pieces together of who Carnage is. There is so much they could've done with Venom, but they always seem to want to force it happen as quickly as possible, in as little films as possible.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp morbius could have worked if they did a better job and not phone it in. Nothing indicates sony was involved stopping any of the characters from being ruined.
@@mutalemwananshiku4098 you mean besides the Sony pictures/Columbia pictures logo during the opening credits?
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp cause marvel were the ones making the movie. Of sony wanted to do a live action spider-verse they wouldnt need marvel to do it.
That’s the same thing with Disney. They know that what they’re putting out there sucks but they’ll keep doing it because you have all those Disney adults that will eat up anything they put out. Only way to stop this mess is with your money
The creators thinking we gaf about their personal beliefs. We just want hero stories,not lectures. And I ain't coming back. The mcu is as dead as star wars now
I get that Marvel is trying to enter into new genres (what I think the source means by "diversity of behavior"). But the problem is a) the stuff they're releasing for superhero fans isn't great and hasn't been for a couple years and b) they're not creating new IP to enter new genres--they're taking superheroic IP with the same names and characters and doing stuff like She-Hulk *without officially announcing that the new product isn't targeted at people who like standard superhero fare*.
It's like if DC decided they wanted to get back into romance comics and just casually changed the Flash, Suicide Squad, and Wonder Woman comics to be romance books without clearly announcing that (or giving fans of those characters some other place to go).
They don't have to announce anything because super hero isn't just one single genre or one specific formula. It can be mutiple things depending on the story. They have the standard super hero action but also be comedic, a romance, a space adventure and so on. Most of the MCU films and series do this
Captain America, Iron Man and Black Panther films are political thrillers
Thor films are fantasy/sci-fy adventure
Guardians of the Galaxy a space opera
Shang Chi is martial arts film
Spider Man is teenager drama.
Failure is due to making movie/TV series of lower level superheros. Disney turning comic books into sitcoms in Ms Marvel/She-Hulk. Marvel fatigue due to over abundance of movies.
Mcu died after endgame
Billion dollars movies set unreasonable expectations
There are some very good points here.
I think we all recognize that it's a numbers game, and that Disney is looking at the largest demographic within their overall audience and investing in keeping them engaged. The primary demo for the MCU (40%) is millennials. 25% of the Marvel fanbase is a combination of baby boomers & Gen Xers, while Gen Zers account for just 9% of Marvel fans. I can easily see teams of Disney marketing and advertising people studying the political motivators of their largest pocket consumer, and banking on the importance of social issues to that one demographic even if it is irksome to a rather vocal subset of Boomers & Gen Xers. So if we were to make a kind of political division and assume that half of the Boomers and Gen Xers are against the Diversity push, we are looking at 12% of the overall fanbase. No corporation makes decisions on behalf of that small of a dissenting opinion -especially not if they truly believe it to be a minority point of view.
From a point of accurate representation, those who have a problem with the progressive stance on gender and special interest would do better to quiet the more bigoted voices among their ranks and stake their claim on data that corporations actually review. Because there is plenty of data.
For instance, roughly half (50%) of the United States' population is male and half is female. About 0.5% of adults 18-24 identify as transgender, and 0.3% of adults 65 and older identify as transgender. That's less than 1/2 of one percent of the US population. So fair representation on screen would be less than 1 transgender character per 200 non-trans characters.
That same 0.4% is included as part of the total percentage of Americans that identifies as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, which is 5.6%, but when asked what portion of the population is LGBT, most Americans overestimate that number to be 24%. So rather than one-in-seventeen characters on screen presented as LGBT, we are sometimes seeing one-in-four (or more).
In Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness we open on a wedding between a Caucasian Woman and an African-American Man. 4.6% of married Black American women and 10.8% of married Black American men had a non-Black spouse. 8.5% of married Black men and 3.9% of married Black women had a White spouse. So that on-screen coupling is representative of less than 9% of marriages in the USA. The only other married couple to get any screen time in that film are America Chavez' two moms. One in 10 LGBT Americans are married to a same-sex spouse. That's 10% of 5.6% of the US population, or one in 178 Americans (which would be two of 356). Combined, those two on-screen relationships is incalculably misrepresentative of current American marriage statistics, since 100% of the marriages depicted are non-representative of the most common couplings in our society.
In Thor: Love and Thunder, there are four primary heroes: Thor, Jane, Valkyrie, Korg. One-half of them is presented as LGBT, which is more than double the perceived percentage -and nine times the actual LGBT population in the USA. That is a 900% over-representation.
Overcompensation is a common form of restitution. It is generally acceptable to initiate some kind of affirmative action in order to right a wrong, but when the scales tip too far in the other direction the cure becomes worse than the condition that required it and support for such programs diminishes; intentions of goodwill can breed resentment. While there is certainly bigotry in this country, it's an over-simplification (and disingenuous) to assume bigotry as the primary opposition to diversity. I think the push-back is something of a referendum on fairness -actual and perceived, and framing the complaint in these terms is much more likely to lead to better representation overall.
Not sure movie going audiences know or care about the difference between Marvel and DC. The novelty of the Superhero Movie has worn off. It doesn't help that Disney/Marvel keep essentially remaking The Lion King and DC blunders into darkness each time, confused with their own property. The superheroes work perfectly as a TV series instead of a movie, and streaming services might keep the superhero shows going. Current events suggest light romantic comedies and revolutionary heroes might do better at the box office now.
By doing what he is doing, Chapek and Feige are driving more people away. Disney has forgotten that customer service is king. What customer service are they providing? Are women really watching She Hulk? I'm not. To me it looks horrible. (I'm a woman). Marvel use to be something, now its got really nothing. Its not building like it did. By the time Feige does a "big" no-expense made movie, will anyone care?
Good video Wes
Thank you for the Insite Wes!
Happy to help!
Right now I will place this information under "highly plausible". As the information seems right on the nose, but I still wouldn't place this source as "highly credible".
Thanks for the information. The Nepotism at Marvel is news to me. Good scoop!
Spiderman wasn't even Marvel, it was Sony.
Honestly this seems like great analysis in that it digs below the surface. Big Corporations don't have morals they want to expand market share. I do think they can right the ship...certainly in my book a lot of the upcoming projects look better but also it helps that DC seems unlikely to get its **** together anytime soon.
The diversity of behavior thing sounds super-creepy and dystopian.
They are pushing alphabetism and ultra-liberalism, especially to young girls and nonwhites. Moderates and conservatives need to boycott until this company is bought by someone else.