The Crisis at Hyrule Castle, a Wild Goose Chase - Dungeon Design in Zelda (TOTK)
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2024
- The Crisis At Hyrule Castle is a quest we are sent to complete after the four main temples, but before the Construct Factory. Those who played BOTW (in which the castle was that game's finale) may find this to be a jarring experience. What was once a dungeon I called "open air potential realized" is now the game's most strictly linear dungeon.
But is that a bad thing? Maybe not. Let's take a closer look.
-Thank you to Zelda Lore and Magicpixiedreamgirl for high res 2D maps
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~Music Credits:
Basecamp (complete) - Tears of the Kingdom OST
Push Forward - Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity OST
Floating Hyrule Castle - Tears of the Kingdom OST
Hyrule Castle - A Link to the Past OST
Signs of their Civilization - CaptBurgerson
Battle at the Sanctum - Tears of the Kingdom OST
Hyrule Castle Grounds - Tears of the Kingdom OST
Monk Maz Koshia - Breath of the Wild (The Champions Ballad) OST
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TIME STAMPS:
0:00 - Intro + TOTK Dungeon Order
1:10 - Before the Dungeon
4:36 - Dungeon Themes and Navigation
13:52 - The Dungeon Boss
16:47 - Conclusion + How to Fix it
#tearsofthekingdom #zelda #TOTK - Ігри
My personal headcanon is that yeah, he's chasing the imposter to confront said imposter, AND he's pissed about it. Like, positively seething.
Course, I also have the headcanon that the Yiga clan member impersonating Zelda did a better disguise than the fake made by Ganondorf.
And I agree with that yiga part lmao
I know there is no "wrong" way to play TotK but I'm glad I avoided fighting the "hands", because when I made it to Hyrule Castle, Phantom Ganon's appearance felt "unique" and more intimidating
I think it was a huge missed opportunity not to pull the castle apart more. Imagine having to navigate the broken pieces of the castle, jumping between parts of the floors that had been entirely seperated from where they used to connect. Would have been a good chance to remix and play on the expectations of BotW players.
imo the way to improve the castle would have been to show more of the castle, we saw in Age of Calamity there are other sections we could never access due to malice, put those unseen sections in the game, make the castle a mix of old and new (like how they did with adding the royal passage), theres plenty of new areas they could have added alongside the new rooms from age of calamity.
I was thinking how cool it would be if instead of puppet zelda just reversing time on the castle throne room in the boss, she reverses time on the whole castle for the whole dungeon so the whole dungeon takes place in hyrule castle from the past
Its honestly a shame they dont use the added from AoC in locations. Akkala Citadel is the biggest offender in that regard.
@@Sparty450 the interior of the citadel being a cave instead of an explorable ruin was the first time I called this game lazy and I stand by that.
This, but also what could be cool is if the more of the castle rose, and had split into multiple islands vs one big one. If you did that and had like a low gravity area around it (which would fit, cause y'know it's been lifted in the air. tho maybe just outside, low gravity in the phatom ganon fight could be kinda annoying) you could still have a kinda interesting sprawling map, _and_ even further justification for why new areas exist. No malice blockings paths, and upheaval has torn new paths into the palace
I like your interpretation of Link following Puppet Zelda, as it's similar to what The Geek Critique had to say about the end of Metroid Dread. Like I said before, it feels like they can't decide whether or not they want you to know she's an imposter. The last two Sages you awaken will straight up tell you the figure that looks like Zelda was most likely an imposter, and I'm pretty sure Purah then tells you the Regional Phenomena were all connected to the figure, but then she sees her at the castle and anxiously tells Link he has to rescue Zelda, then this whole setpiece feels like it's building up to a big reveal. With how they wanted to present Puppet Zelda, most people were gonna notice pretty early that something wasn't right with her, but I think they could've made this so much better by making it more vague what she actually was. They easily could've had us believe this was the real Zelda and she was possessed, especially since they've done that in a game before. In the case of us having seen memory 5, they could even have us believe she had somehow lost herself from that mysterious forbidden act. This dungeon still does a great job creating a dreadful, haunting atmosphere surrounding Puppet Zelda, but it could've been so much better if the Sages didn't straight up tell you she's an imposter. Also, don't have her show up nearly as much as she does in Yunobo's quest. I can kinda buy that Yunobo wouldn't see through it, but otherwise that encapsulated everything you don't do when you have a silent protagonist in your game.
On a side note, the Phantom Ganon fight seems to be built around the Sages' Vows, hence why there are 5 of them. You're meant to deal with one at a time while the Sages keep the others busy, similarily to how it works in the Ganondorf fight.
I felt the same. Especially if you've done the Lucky Clover quests and seen how many fakes have been sightes.
Cultured Geek Critique enjoyer 👌
Truth @@Grandwigg
I do wonder, one I the worst possibly lacking dungeon aspects I think might have been thought about but dismissed and would have been cool to see would have been had the Ganon fight had a scaffold appear in the "boss" room, draw us to the top and have a "gloom hands" skydiving sequence back to the bottom, like the forge but with gloom hands instead of lasers, I say this because that hollow vertically seems oddly clear, and that would explain the fact it has zero hands with so many Ganon.
I can’t read a,l of that
I think the theoretically easiest fix, but hardest to implement would be just to have Ganondorf continue to rise the castle into the sky as you progress. Imagine a section of the castle breaking off and turn away as you approach it, or a section failing to rise as fast as the rest and fall away. Now it has a new layout, even multiple layouts as you go.
I totally agree with your point about Link knowing that it’s not really Zelda because that was pretty much my exact thoughts as well. I think he didn’t tell anybody because he didn’t want to worry them even more, they were already dealing with their own issues. Puppet Zelda is actually such a screwed up concept when you really think about it.
Maybe it would've been better if Puppet Zelda was more believable and led to total shock when you learned the truth, but as is I really love her role in the story. Not only was she Ganondorf's eyes and ears in Hyrule, she also harmed the kingdom in a way Calamity Ganon never could've: psychologically.
I agree with Link not telling the people the truth as King Dorephan and Muzu did the same thing when they were attacked by her (I feel it doesn't make much sense not to just bring Dorephan back for treatment and say you just encountered a monster in the wild, but you get the idea). In reality, having Link update the people on what he knew would've been essentially impossible from a game design perspective, so this explanation is the best outcome we can get imo.
I mean, that does fit with the most notably character trait of his that was mentioned in Zelda's diary from BotW.
one thing that surprised me was that the music at lookout landing changed when this quest was activated. it was nice to hear lookout landing having its own version of pre dungeon music like the other race towns
I also include the tunnel starting at lookout landing which leads into the basement of the castle as part of the dungeon. Gives it a nice three part structure. Tunnel with NUMEROUS branching paths (I may be mistaken but I also believe it’s the largest in the game), First half of the castle to explore at your leisure, second half gauntlet to the finish line. Sounds like a solid dungeon to me🤷♂️
Next time I play through the game this is how I’m doing it. Thanks!
That's a solid way to approach and experience it, though I think it gives too much credit to the dungeon design. If the entire segment is skippable and outside of the dungeon map, I have a hard time saying it's actually part of the dungeon.
funnily enough, I didn't even know Phantom Ganon was in the game until this dungeon, so the fight was a shock to me. Then Killing the gloom hands in the Deku Tree showed me that Phantom Ganon spawned from them. So it was pretty special to get hit with that then.
There's like 3 gloom spawns in the castle... How was that your first time?
Look when you see a Bunch of Floor masters attacking you and you panic because the trama those caused you as a kid are in full swing, and you die to them the first few times you interact with them. You'd miss this too.@@diegomedina9637
@@diegomedina9637 Because Gloom hands despawn if they can't reach you, its very conceivable to not have found out it spawns phantom ganon.
I feel like hyrule castle in totk is meant to be the equivalent to the ice cavern, bottom of the well, or Ikana castle. They aren't dungeons but are very close to being one, and kind of serve as a gateway into an "even bigger" dungeon/part of the game. In totk's instance, it's the late game search for the last dungeon/sage .
Typically in the past we called those “mini-dungeons” but that term more aptly applies to the shrines in this game (and botw)
Yeah, but shrines are much more of their own thing. Most don't even have enough puzzles/combat to be considered mini dungeons, and the ones that do, they don't have any main game significance, like giving you an required item or any unique encounters/game progression.
i like how the dungeon uses the "search for X amount of terminals" and makes it more unique from the other dungeons, having ambushes is far more exciting and engaging than the other dungeons that use the terminal system.
This is almost verbatim something I wrote in my script about the construct factory lol
@@CaptBurgerson I just wish there was more variety with all of the dungeons
The biggest thing modern Zelda dungeons could benefit from imo is more varied objectives. The Temples were really fun, but they would've been more memorable from a gameplay perspective if they didn't all follow the same structure.
A bit of a side note, but I remember that long before the game came out there were a lot of people speculating that the castle would become like a roaming HQ for Ganondorf, sort of like Howl's Moving Castle. Even when it was revealed to just be suspended in place, I still saw people expecting there to be something huge going on with the castle. Like, it seemed obvious that it would be Ganondorf's base of operations, so there had to be something cool with it. Even I jokingly speculated with my friend that the castle would turn into some giant mecha and we would have to fight Ganondorf with our own giant zonai mecha power rangers style (at least we did get a robot fight)! Safe to say me and a lot of people definitely didn't expect the castle to be one massive red herring and Ganondorf was actually chilling at the very bottom of the world, which I actually kinda appreciate. In retrospect, I think that might be the reason why Nintendo was so tight lipped about the Depths, so that people would assume that Ganondorf was in the castle and keep the twist secret.
This actually brings me to some really cool visual storytelling with the castle. They explain that the castle was built above Rauru's seal so the site wouldn't be distributed, and therefore the state of the castle is tied to the safety of the kingdom. The castle as a whole was basically a reinforcement to the seal, and it being damaged caused the seal to weaken (presumably by letting rats and stuff in to disturb it, based on the explanation). When the seal breaks, Ganondorf raising the castle essentially represents him breaking through his prison and exposing the dark secret hidden in the depths below. The whole thing was basically a massive vault door to the Depths, which has now been opened, and you can see it from anywhere in Hyrule as a constant reminder of the Demon King's influence.
I know the first time I climbed into a well shortly after reaching the surface and I just kept falling and falling I was certainly surprised.
As usual, pretty easy to agree with you. My fix would be to have the castle present as an illusory Zonai castle as soon as the four sages are brought to lookout landing. Lean into that illusion thing, make it a whole new castle to explore, not just one room.
It's funny you say you were considering this as the lead up to the construct factory. I played through this dungeon with Mineru in my party having to listen to everybody go like, "a fifth sage!?" at the end while her robot was standing right there with them.
Ok... That's pretty dumb... There's no reason for Hyrule Castle to be anything BUT the same castle it was last game.
@@diegomedina9637 There was no reason for the shrine of resurrection to not be the shrine of resurrection, or for the sheikah towers to just not exist anymore. They can do whatever they want.
@@coolguychecker7329 Well... There was a reason. The Calamity was defeated. Almost all of the shrines and all of the towers were only even active because they were made specifically to oppose the Calamity. For everything else? Well it was dismantled because they literally failed to do what they were supposed to do. That's why there's little to no Sheikah tech in Tears of the Kingdom.
@@diegomedina9637 And if they decided to make a castle illusion, they would have written a reason for it too. I'm merely making a suggestion for a dungeon, I have no interest in writing the scenario that would allow it. I am confident the Zelda team could come up with something if they decided to do such an idea. We had no problem with Ganondorf projecting a pristine Hyrule Castle sanctum from an era he never witnessed.
@@coolguychecker7329 He did... He just grabbed what was already there and fixed it up. It's not the same pristine sanctum we saw in Breath of the Wild and Age of Calamity. There's literally no reason for having it being an illusion when we know what the castle is supposed to look like from both previous games AND even this one early on where the game tells you to go to it.
I agree with you that it’s weird that the game tries to imply that we still think puppet Zelda is really Zelda. I had already gotten the master sword at this point, and it felt weird that I couldn’t tell the other characters that that definitely was not her. My biggest gripe was that there’s no good way to find the next encounter without looking on the map, which felt very gamey. I wish there was an in-game trail or other indication for you to follow. I think I had already explored the castle at this point, too so I could either wander around as busy work or cheat.
Funny enough, THIS was my first time fighting phantom Ganon. I got the master sword after and I fought the Ganon in korok forest and thought it was much easier. I fought the 5 phantoms with all my sages out so they’re all in indivindual 1v1s
I actually felt this Phantom Ganon Boss fight was one of my favourite boss battles
I liked 16:30
Says "breaking new ground"
Shows footage of Phantom Ganon slamming his club into the ground.
When I reached this point in the game, I was still too shit-scared of the Gloom Hands to do anything other than run the fuck away from them. This meant I had never actually encountered Phantom Ganon before, so when he showed up in the Sanctum of Hyrule Castle, I was absolutely stoked. To me, it didn't feel like an overworld boss copy-pasted 4 times, it felt like a climactic moment with the triumphant return of a classic Zelda boss.
If I had actually successfully fought the Gloom Hands before this though, I think I would have been a lot less impressed. I wouldn't have that definitive sense of reaching an important milestone in the game's story.
Having never fought Phantom Ganon before, I was a bit overwhelmed when four of them showed up all at once. I did manage to beat them first time, but it was very much touch-and-go. I basically resorted to a strategy of running up the stairs, jumping off the balcony and spamming as many arrows as I could into their heads.
Also, I was a little disappointed that there wasn't a classic game of Phantom Ganon tennis at any point...
I know that this isn’t skyward sword, but id be lying if I said I wasn’t a little disappointed when the title didn’t say ‘Wild Groose Chase’
If my huge shipping glasses may be permitted here, I like to think that while Link fully knows it is not the real Zelda, he still misses seeing her or being near her and so he can’t help but follow her both to deal with the underlying threat he knows is using her image as bait and to fill up the void of her absence :’)
Maybe instead of just the map marker, there could be some sort of visual indicator like a pillar of light. I hate how I have to stop to repeatedly open the map just to see where I need to go next.
"Phantom Ganon, and Phantom Ganon, and Phantom Ganon, and Phantom Ganon."
"Once he's defeated, and he's defeated, and he's defeated, and he's defeated..."
Poor fifth Phantom Ganon, he got no recognition 😞
He’s like the purple Link of Phantom Ganons
It was such a missed opportunity that the concept art of the great hall from BOTW was never implemented into TotK
One I would also count as a Dungeon is Great Sky Island / Temple of Time. It’s like a very big maze (somewhat linear) with 4 shrines acting as the terminals and with a heart container as a reward
I say the same about the Great Plateau. Both are the opening dungeons
In TOTK, Hyrule Castle feels... toxic... That's how I'll describe it.
In BOTW, Hyrule Castle felt imposing and formidable, as if it were the seat of some great and insurmountable power. There was a sense of danger, but also a regality and grandeur to it all. Even when infested by the literal source of evil in Hyrule, Hyrule Castle could never be stripped of its majesty and pride. This time around, Hyrule Castle feels literally poisoned. It's been desecrated and torn from its natural connection with the earth in the most unholy sort of way. The building has fallen from its former grace and now languishes in a place where none may reach. The atmosphere now feels suffocating and insidious, as if the formerly majestic space has been defiled by a hazy, poisonous miasma that hangs about and will gradually smother you the longer you dare to remain. It's a more understated sense of danger, but a somehow more unsettling one, in my opinion. It's sad to see the castle in such a forlorn state. Again, it all feels... toxic...
By the way...navy beans, coconut water, and dates are an even BETTER source of potassium!
I kinda wish some of the monster forces spawns would have been replaced with other kinds of traps, like spikes in a roof with the floor beginning to rise/flame walls/other obstacles you need to Zonai tech/ultrahand MacGyver your way out of somehow. Or that there would be some feasible way to explain away the impostors' correlation to them, like having some monsters in on the scheme come "carry her off" or something to make it appear like she is bait to lure you in to the various traps.
Come to think of it - Why did Tears of the Kingdom not have MacGyver challenges where you get stuck in a death trap and need to use the ultrahand to somehow get out of the predicament? That woulda been both a hectic and fun challenge that makes extensive use of the ultrahand ability as rather than solving a puzzle by calmly thinking about it, you need to quickly come up with something on the spot to save your own hide by using items in the environment in a clever way while under pressure. Classic death traps and more elaborate ones alike coulda been utilized, and at the late game point (the idea of MacGyver rooms could have already been introduced earlier on too using things like rising lava chambers and such) the player should be more than competent with the ultrahand to be able to quickly assemble some cooky contraptions or set-ups to avoid getting killed.
Seems like a wasted opportunity to not have these sorts of rooms featured in Tears of the Kingdom.
Lightning temple sorta plays with that idea but otherwise yeah it is an idea that is under-utilized I think
I stumbled upon your channel not long ago and binge watched all the dungeon design series of the course of a few nights while settling down for the day. I’ve been waiting for this video to premiere since 😂
I really enjoyed this entry. The thoughts on fixing were thoughtful, especially the idea of ascent and whatnot in puzzles.
I love the title of this video. It reminds me of the time you played that Goose game on stream a few years ago.
Good video. Agreed with your take on Link, that was my interpretation as well. He knows it's not Zelda. He just wants to unmask the impostor.
I overall liked the gauntlet this dungeon presented. It's not as grand and huge as BOTW's version, but like you said it's not supposed to be. This is more of a climax than a finale. That being said, I wouldn't have minded a few more rooms/areas to go through and explore or fight through.
Boss fight was great, especially using all 4 champions to help you (as I did). I had already fought Phantom Ganon a few times by this point and had gotten better each time. The first time I fought him, it took me like 3 fairies. Each subsequent time I improved to the point where I was taking little damage, but he was still imposing. In that sense, I like the story progression of how Link has rebuilt a good deal of his strength by this point so the fight is more balanced, but not a complete pushover either.
Have enjoyed these videos and am looking forward to the Construct Factory/Spirit Temple, which was fun but could have been even better. Do you plan on doing one for Gloom's Origin? I know it doesn't have a heart container or its own map, but it did kinda feel like a final Zelda dungeon.
At this point I think I am concluding TOTK Dungeon videos with Construct Factory / Spirit Temple, but I will be talking about Gloom's Origin and the game's finale at the end of that video, same way I did briefly talking about the moon and final boss at the end of my stone tower video for Majora's Mask. Cheers!
The phantom ganon fight was fun for me because at this point I had not visited korok forest or ever seen gloom spawn before. I did a crazy amount of shrines, it was just coincidence. My first gloom spawn I found a bit after in korok grove, i was calmly driving around in a little car and they came out of the ground, followed me, and ripped apart the car as i was driving over gloom. I didnt think to kill them until I got inside the deku tree and there was no other option
A beliavable way to add significant redesigns to the layout would be smashing some Zonai ruins inte castle. Either by having ruin parts fall down onto the castle from above, or by having the castle smash into a ruin from below when it's lifted into the sky.
Could have made for som neat layouts, moving between pieces of the Hylian castle, and maybe something like a grand temple or some castle counterpart of the Zonai.
Great video (and look at that view count! Hecking YES!)! I've been MIA for a while, it was so nice to watch a video of yours again! Always inspires me to push forward and create videos of high quality! :D
Ahh thanks so much friend 🙏
What a great video, Capt, as always.
If there is one thing I have learned whilst playing totk, it's that it doesn't matter how good of a story you have created, if the presentation doesn't match then it will come off as a badly.
I think this was a good "plot" dungeon. It serves as a bookend not only to regional phenomena main quest but the mysterious sightings side quests as well. This was puppet Zeldas final game of cat and mouse with Link so I didn't mind the linearity. Also yeah I also believe that Link knew that "Zelda" was a fake but in order to get to the bottom of this he knew he had to spring the trap.
its classified as a dungeon in the files, so though i think its kinda weird and definitely very different from the rest, its certainly a dungeon
Your proposals to make the dunegon better actuallly sounds exciting.
I personally really enjoyed Hyrule Castle, the music, the narrative weight of the situation while traveling in a more seemless and torn apart environment really went a long way in making me feel uneasy. Even if the dungeon can be a lot better I still think it fits the uncanny feel it goes for so well
Yes they should have had puzzles involved in this. I agree with your thoughts. It’s not bad, but it feels less interesting than it should. I’m guessing they were thinking if they added puzzles it would have been like the other dungeons in the game and they wanted this to be different. So I get it in that sense. But Zelda is about puzzles to me. So you want the castle to be a big dungeon.
this was my first video on this channel and I gotta say, holy cheese, how is this channel so small? I did not expected that level of quality, great job.
Because I'd been avoiding the gloom hands like the plague up to this point, this fight was actually the very first time I encountered Phantom Ganon in totk. I had no idea he was even in the game, and oh man did that make this fight more intimidating, but also so much more epic!!
This bit went by so quickly for me that I’m surprised it made the list! Very much agree that the “just go to these 7 markers” part feels too easy / doesn’t provide much variety.
I gave an example of what an awesome Hyrule castle dungeon could look like in the BotW Hyrule castle vid but suffice it to say i agree that it would be cool if there were more puzzles, ideally I think it would be a perfect opportunity to re-use that trope of the ghosts stealing the flames in the OoT Forest and Arbiters grounds because that way you could be sent to a central room by your marker then have to discover the location of the monster forces maybe facing locked doors and even having to find a dungeon map that could come with their locations along the way!
Boss fight and exposition bit were good tho 👍
"This dungeon is meant to sit squarely in the fifth spot." Yeeeeah... about that. It was my sixth. The Fire Temple was my fifth.
Honestly with the "chase fake zelda" scene, I spent it shouting "GET BACK HERE COWARD" because I felt less like I was being tricked to save zelda, and more like I was being strung along hopping I got the chance to beat their behind. There was no doubt to me she was an imposter, and I wish the game treated me like I was smart enough to figure it out instead of talking down to me like I might not know yet.
As for fixing the gauntlet and exploration, i feel both could have been fixed by A) utilizing the parts of the castle that were blocked off by the malice last game, and B) having imposter zelda vanish after each fight and you had to go exploring to find her and get ambushed again. Then it would have incentivized exploration to find her and molly-whop her.
I remember having done all the memories and had the Master Sword by this point, because I really wanted it, and was like “I know she’s fake. Link knows. He hasn’t told anyone and is letting everyone be strung along on this.” If one has seen the memory of Sonia’s death, they probably have a good suspicion as well of the truth.
@davidbeer5015 exactly the same! That's /why/ I knew so surely xD
Yay my boo is back
Can’t wait to show my daughters this one.
We love your stuff
There are actually three versions of the sky portion of the castle theme: regular, battle(plays while fighting the monsters forces, and the Zelda's lullaby version(plays after defeating the final force and before phantom ganon). Hyrule Castle Phantom Ganon is easily my favorite boss in the game. The way that there are 5 of them plus their screeches reminds me of the Nazgul from Lord of the Rings.
Phantom Ganon being EVERYWHERE on the map played heavily in my disappointment when I found out he was yet again in the castle... Gloom hands are hard enough to stand on their own on the overworld, thus Phantom Ganon would have been a unique encounter, a true boss fight.
In regards to Link's motivation, I assume Link is following bc he's desperate. Like, idk if it isnt clear enough but Link has a lot of care and appreciation for Zelda, it's literally his primary quest more than even taking down Ganon, a quest that doesn't end until you actually bring Zelda back, no matter how early you find where she is.
So yea to me Link either knows it's a trap but can't help but follow anyway out of a desperate hope that he's wrong and it IS her (knowing the truth but being in denial basically), and/or follows bc if it ISNT her, maybe it'll give her clues as to where Zelda is (/how to get her back depending on if you completed the memories). Considering how Ganon toys with Link a la "the memories shared here", it seems this path was intentional to get him reminiscing, maybe want it back - which imo is funny cause it shows how he didn't know how miserable they were 100 years ago, he just assumes they were as protective of each other always - only to make him suffer. Idk man following an imposter who you KNOW is an imposter out of the tiniest bit of hope that JUST THIS TIME it might be true, only to be resigned yet crushed that it's not, feels heartbreaking. It feels pointless but you cant help but reach out.
PS: in regards to how the game is played, I think a lot of totk is even more freeing yet more "locked in" than botw, the decision is truly in your hands-- so if you want to cheese a storyline or a shrine or a quest or explore something before it's time, you CAN, it just wont be as rewarding as doing it the intended way. The thing is that people want it to be as open as BOTW and play like that, except Tears really tries to tell you not to go a few places before its time, etc, it just doesn't lock you out of them. So I frankly don't have a lot of patience for people who brute force their way through the dungeon or story and then blame game design for it. The Devs made it clear their goal is for the player to be as free as possible, both for good AND for bad. It's YOUR choice on how to approach it - the entire game is an open dungeon/puzzle. Find the way to make the pieces line up correctly in a way that feels satisfying and it'll be a great experience. Whether you LIKE that approach is definitely sujective (I wish some parts had been truly locked out so semi-open for example), but it accomplishes their design philosphy, imo.
(I also think this dungeon works a lot better for the overwhelming majority of fans than the superfans that played it a ton of times. I played botw once before totk came out bc I only got a switch recently, so it was still very confusing and fun to explore. Visited the castle a couple more times in a new playthrough of botw, but since it was only a few, this still felt challenging and fun to play in totk. The copy-paste nature of the location is probably much less of a problem for most players.)
I mostly agree with what you're saying here, and I think I have been very critical especially in regards to the cheese in these videos. Truth is, this series of videos is so narrowly focused on the dungeons of the game that I don't get the chance to really get into the nitty gritty of everything else about the game that I find myself loving so much. The same can really be said of my BOTW dungeon videos.
There is a level of irony to it actually, that BOTW and TOTK are some of my absolute favourite games ever but my dungeon videos on them come off as some of my most critical videos ever haha
@@CaptBurgerson That's super fair! I hope the bits about the cheesability didn't feel like a critique of just you, it's just a sentiment I see floating around a lot on the internet - I really like your takes on the dungeons tbh, even if I dont agree with all of them. It's fascinating to see them through the pov of a longtime fan and a fan of the classic dungeon style.
Meanwhile, I'm a new (got a switch last year, literally only played botw once and now totk, am currently on my second playthrough of both) / casual player, so these issues bother me a lot less. Looking forward to playing the older titles tho, I wonder how much my opinion will change!
(also lowkey it would be fun to make a special edition "dungeon" video on how the entire game is a puzzle at the end of the series :'D)
Oh my god, thank you so much for that post scriptum, because I feel the same 100%, it was so frustrating seeing people complain how easy the fire temple was as if they didn't make the conscious choice to cheese it
@@bravecereza yes! You CAN brute-force your way through it (cause the devs very much want you to have complete freedom on how to approach the game), but the game DOES make it clear what's the best way of playing. If you consciously choose not to do it, I won't have a lot of patience for that kind of ranting.
Mind you, you *can* criticise the openness of it, how the game LETS you cheese stuff... But in that case you're criticizing the game ideology of the devs. Which is also fine -- I just try to judge games based on the intent behind them. It's like criticizing a primarily narrative-driven story for having a lot of cutscenes.
Hyrule Castle in TOTK is one of the dungeons of all time 👌
If I were to rank all of the dungeons, it would definitely make the list
Personally I would have loved a second phase of the phantom Ganon fight to be a match with Dark Link! I feel like it would fit within some of the themes of Ganon being able to project images of other people and overcoming that darkness. As for the dungeon itself perhaps adding some forced interaction with the bottom half of the castle? Maybe to get a key or something that unlocks some areas. I agree that it felt very strange running through this since I had already done just about everything else before (I thought this was go kill Ganon time so wanted to make sure I had other stuff finished). Thus I already had the 5th sage and even finished all the tear memories so I knew this wasn't Zelda. I do enjoy the mystery of the game overall even if it is simple. Learning about a hidden sage and trying to figure out Zeldas motives for screwing with people. It made me invested in each phenomena even if I could already predict what was going to happen (I initially thought it was a twilight princess scenario). Shoutouts to the devs adding in dialogue if you found the 5th sage and master sword early tho. Purrah is like "oh snap you already found everything aight let's go" xD. Great video as always!
I absolutely did not encounter Phantom Ganon prior to this. Within the first couple of minutes of landing on the surface I encountered that accursed Gloom Spawn/Hands which quite quickly turned into a "Game Over" screen. You'd better believe I avoided these (or ran like h*ll) when I encountered them every. single. time. Well, until I was forced to face it in a certain location that sees Link as Pepto-Bismol to an upset tummy.
i actually got to this dungeon without ever encountering a phantom ganon, so fighting 5 of them at the same time was my first experience with him.
Purah's heels are hella tho 😜 Thank you for your analysis!! I found this area to be very emotionally charged for me, split between anxiety, fear, sadness, and longing, and your clear head helps me see past it to the actual mechanics. I agree that looking at this from a less emotional perspective makes the sequential wild goose hunt a bit tedious, and I like the idea of removing the objective markers and finding the encounters yourself. I really enjoyed hearing your take, as always!! Can't wait for the next one, thanks for the video 😋💚
Like you said at the end, I really appreciate how you give solutions to your criticisms instead of just yelling at something you don’t like
Of course it's got problems, but I love the wild goose chase feel of this dungeon. If you've kept up with the Master Sword quest you know this can't be Zelda, and if you haven't you know if this is Zelda she's being possessed in some way. Either way, you're trying to get to the bottom of it, and either way it feels like Ganondorf has sort of forced you to play along. It feels downright disrespectful how Zelda's visage is used to pull Link around, repeatedly throw a bunch of mooks at him, force him to go to these specific points in the castle only to move to the next. I felt like I was wasting my time, but honestly it's one of the few bits of characterization I think Ganondorf got in this game. He has no respect for you until you've proven it to him personally, so he's going to use a dirty tactic like identity theft to jerk you around for no reason, waste your time and energy, and then (also characteristic of him based on the final boss fight) throw something completely over-the-top and tryhard at you, that being the Phantom Ganon shadow clone army. Honestly, in my opinion, though it's lighter in magnitude, this has wow-factor in the same direction as his comically large health bar or him full-on flurry-rushing you when you try to flurry-rush him. That's why I like this segment, we get a real idea of how this guy works and a feel for his personality, and without her being directly captured we have our (hopefully) built-in attachment to Zelda leveraged to create personal hatred for Ganondorf.
I know "It's a slog on purpose" is a hard sell, but it really helped make parts of the game more narratively satisfying to me.
Finally was able to watch this video. I personally felt as though puppet Zelda should have played a more major role in the boss fight. Perhaps you need to beat her before phantom ganon.
Also I felt as though the castle should have acted as the depths with your health. You do something in the surface castle to “cleanse” the castle in the sky to remove that hindrance. Add just a bit more.
Very excited for this premier, I loved the castle in BOTW. Its so fun just stumbling around with no good weapons or armour early game and just trying to survive against all the powerful enemies while looting the castle. On my new master mode save i just got the hylian shield and a bunch of random royal and royal guard weapons while using ice attacks to avoid enemies who can notice me through the stealth set
still pissed they didnt open up the grand hall
like everyone wanted to explore that room in botw
and then aoc gave us a bone
and thats it
whole castle gets shaken by an earth quake and risen up into the sky
and not a single entrance got unblocked
While I agree that these encounters with Zelda happened at least two times more often than necessary, I really enjoyed this part of the game. The german voice actor for Zelda did a great job impersonating Puppet Zelda and some of her lines sound vaguely flirty - in a very, very eerie way. In my head canon, Link and Zelda became a couple after BotW, and Puppet Zelda is toying with his feelings for her in a very cruel way. Of course he is not falling for it, he has already seen the memory with puppet Zelda at this point and perhaps even figured it out much earlier, after getting confronted with an out of character Zelda in each dungeon.
The only thing that could have made this experience better for me was if Nintendo had amplified this emotional part a bit more, giving Puppet Zelda a few more lines and making some of them just slightly more obvious. But I understand they wanted to keep the nature of Link and Zeldas relationship as vague as possible to please everyone, which is a bit unfortunate in moments like this.
I have a strong head canon for this entire game about Link's emotions. He must suffer terribly from being separated from Zelda, not knowing whether or not she even survived and later learning what happened to her. Being confronted with a taunting (sometimes flirting) Puppet Zelda inside of the castle must be an enraging experience for him, and I think Nintendo could have shown this a bit more without completely abandoning the ambiguity if they don't want to.
I loved when both Link and Phantom Ganon were swordfigthing together, pretty steamy
Me personally, I'd have enjoyed the Hyrule Castle goose chase if I could use Twilight Princess's secret sword skills but noooooo
While I know this wasn't a dungeon per se, I do wonder what a video about the tunnels below Hyrule Castle would have been like.
5:20 Architecture? In the ALTTP Ganon's Tower video I had hoped you would discuss the architecture then, but you didn't. :( Specifically, the fact that in ALTTP's Hyrule Castle, there are no Triforce emblems at all, but Ganon's Tower is full of them, which points to the Hyrule's and Ganon's different relationship to the Triforce in that game. Ganon had the Triforce and he was quite proud of it, and appreciated all it did fr him.
I’m not sure what that has to do with things in this video? Sorry if I disappointed you there though
I did all the dragon tears before completing my 2nd regional phenomenon so i knew zelda was fake. And link should have known, so it kinda felt awkward when link didnt communicate that to anyone during the regional phenomenon quests or still blindely followed zelda during the castle portion
i had never beaten phantom ganon before this dungeon so having to fight 5 of them at once was... interesting
I have a semantic argument. Just because a game calls something a dungeon does not necessarily make it a "dungeon" in any meaningful way. The purpose of language is to convey thoughts and ideas. Calling something a dungeon doesn't mean it conforms to the themes or concepts we all associate with the term. In other words, if I told somebody "Here's play this Zelda dungeon" and sat them down with TotK Hyrule Castle, they would wonder why they're playing through an enemy gauntlet, or why there aren't any puzzles to solve. They would wonder this because their concept of a dungeon likely doesn't include whatever Hyrule Castle in TotK is. If someone in a position of authority, such as a game developer, decides to label something as a dungeon even when it is completely inconsistent with previous uses of the term, it throws a wrench into everything. Now, when people say "dungeon", the meaning is less clear. Many have already stopped using "Zelda" to define the entire series, and now make a distinction between "classic Zelda" and the "BotW Era Games". I suspect that there will soon be a distinction between "classic dungeons" and "BotW era dungeons". The reason I believe this is because when a word loses it's ability to neatly define a specific idea it falls out of use in favor of something that better explains the ideas of the speaker. Otherwise people will end up confused.
I really enjoyed this in depth exploration of Hyrule Castle, and even learned some things. It's a great video, and I don't mean to sound negative. At the same time, I wanted to express my criticism.
I see your point but let's keep in mind that Zelda has often played it fast and loose with how it defines things, whether it be dungeons, or other sorts of gameplay structures.
Thanks for taking the time and glad you enjoyed. Cheers
I personally never found this quest to be a dungeon, but more of like a tour. The dedicated map even in botw I always interpreted as simply being given because of it being such a complicated structure with several different rooms and paths. But because there is only a destination to make your way to and not goals to complete, I find it to not really be intended to be a dungeon in the same way as the temples or divine beasts.
Dedicated Map, series of objectives you have to complete, boss fight at the end, sorry, it's a dungeon.
Not of the same scale as others, true, but still a dungeon.
I didn't rven realised it's a dungeon and just got trough it like it is just another question. And also the minerus dungeon felt less than a dungeon. I also didn't realised it is in fact a dungeon with a lot of sections. (Also because somehow I found the iland before even riju because I was curious whats up there and missed the whole quest after the castle. )
I didn't even consider this a dungeon at all during my playthrough! Your points make sense though. I do wish i could play through this again (without having to do all the sages)
Just finished this part of the game yesterday. Also the four sages that I had; Sidon, Riju, Tulin and Yunobo, each fought one of them so I didn’t need to fight all 5 15:20
Link was literally the definition of fuck around and find out
Loved the music choices this episode! Do you think you could put the songs you used in the description? It feels like I've heard the song in the intro before but can't quite put a name on it.
Thanks. I have updated the description now
@@CaptBurgerson Thank you!
Navigating the castle is supposed to be the puzzle it's supposed to feel familiar but uncomfortable that's the whole puzzle
That’s a vibe. A good vibe even, but not what a puzzle is
The main flaw of this dungeon ties in with the main flaw of the castle in BotW. In Breath of the Wild, you could easily skip the entire dungeon and go straight for the Sanctum, you're not required to actually interact with it at all. In Tears of the Kingdom, the castle is very linear, actually making you see what the area has to offer. The castle in TotK is only good if you abused the flaws of the design in BotW.
one of my homies did thr Phantom Ganon without encountered them in the wild. Little did know the game got difficult. He said game ez, boy he was wrong. Died 30 sum times
The eternal storm is pretty cool, for the boss however it is only chalenging if you chose to make it hard you can make the sages avatars pop up and spam arrows at them like a morron.
My and many others favorite Zelda dungeon is the Snowpeak Ruins dungeon.
It has been praised as the most interesting and engaging dungeon in the series, but its not. It looks like this cool mansion you go around and around in, but its linear and you get told where to go.
No the reason why its so like is because of its framing and story, its not the dungeon we like, its the place and the two Yeti living there. You get told about this mysterious stranger from ontop of a mountain, so you need to do some detective work to find the path trough the blizzard, and when you get on top, you find this strange Yeti getting you to snowboard over to his haunted mansion far far away, there his wife scams you into making soup.
These are the parts that makes us love it, not the dungeon design, but the design of the dungeon, an interesting dungeon does not need to be intricate and complex as long as the framing and story is.
I get what you’re saying but you don’t speak for everyone. Snowpeak as well is something I’ve done a video on, and it’s not just that framing that makes it so great. (That framing is good don’t get me wrong, it’s just not only important thing)
Snowpeak strings you around in segments and then hits a point where it opens up and gives you the ability (ball and chain) to explore freely and overcome obstacles that you couldn’t before. It’s a great dungeon, one of the best, but don’t get revisionist on me and say that level design suddenly doesn’t matter and never did
The castle was a letdown in TOTK. Basically a place to walk through and gather some weapons and move on.
I wonder how would people reach the castle after the events of the game since it’s still floating.
Also great video dude.
one reason I would personally not consider hyrule castle as a dungeon is that you can not only visit it prior to activation, but you can clear it entirely before even having the quest unlocked (which I did, without thinking there would be a quest there).
I would consider it more like an ennemy rush than a real dungeon, as you have no challenge from the environment, only challenge from the monsters you face.
(in addition of it being so short I took more time in the boss room looking at new stuff than time seeking the fake zelda everywhere)
As a bit of pushback: Plenty of classic Zelda dungeons could be completed without a quest or out of order, so I don't think that is a good parameter for if it counts or not. Plenty of classic dungeons have been more combat focused as well.
Dungeons take many shapes and forms throughout the series
@@CaptBurgerson you're entirely true, and my vision is probably heavily biased as my first (and one of my favourites) zelda game is phantom hourglass, which clearly defines dungeons inside it, and I am probably influenced too much by it. still, I must admit I did not feel a "dungeon vibe" when doing hyeule castle, it was closer to (i'll compare it to spirit track there) the part where you have to guide the princess in the garden, it you had to fight at the end the demon assistant. but again, the earlier games (at least those i've played, meaning ph, st, albw, ss, oot, ww, mc, La, might be missing some) did really change the entire tone of the game while going inside a dungeon, which is not really something botw or totk do to the same extent (shrines perform a similar change of tone, yet feel too disconnected from hyrule to my taste, but that's another debate).
don't get me wrong, I had a really great time going around it :p
Watched the video now.
At least the watertemple was completely new. Hyrule castle was not. They took the same castle and split it in too, that's all. They should have combined the new underground pass from the surface level and make that the only way to get into the dungeon, similar to how you could reach the zora sky islands. Wrap the castle in a barrier shield and make it only accessible from the inside. Wenn making it linear, then correctly at least! In addition to that, the upper castle section should have been changed drastically, also in architecture. It should have been Ganons castle now, not a copy&paste filler. This was the worst experience during my Playthrough.
I wouldn’t go that far with it, I don’t think exploring it is bad, but I do agree they could/should have taken more steps to change it up
Although I loved this quest, I don’t think it counts as a dungeon. Saying that would be like calling the yiga hideout one in botw. Both have bosses, combat, loot, and bring you to the next dungeon. To me, Hyrule castle feels like its own quest that is there for story progression, separate from any other dungeon or dungeon build up.
It was cool to fight Phantom Ganon whilst my other 4 champions took on a Phantom Ganon each
My first Zelda game was Four Swords: Anniversary Edition when I was a kid.
So my first Zelda game was BOTW lol.
I of course played TOTK and then i wanted to try out the older games. so I started with Link to the Past and its been a bit frustrating but okay enough fun. But once I entered the Dark World after collecting the Master Sword I have a revelation about what I would've liked to have seen from this game. So in Link to the Past you explore and do 3 dungeons and then collect the Master Sword. So I would've liked it if we spend the first half of TOTK doing the regional phenomena and uncovering the mystery Zelda. Completing each dungeon would then start to unlock the Dragon Tears. Then once you've done the regional phenomena you'd rush Hyrule Castle and have your first ever fight with Phantom Ganon. Also, Gloom Hands wouldn't be Phantom Ganon before this point. So fake Zelda would turn into Gloom Hands and then turn into Phantom Ganon. Defeating Ganon would cause the world to change midgame. Enemies would become harder. War would begin reaching the different towns (Like the Gerudo siege) and the depth would be unlocked alongside 4 new dungeons.
Will you do a video on the construct factory? What about the 3 labyrinths that span all 3 levels of the game (sky, land, and depths)?
Definitely the construct factory, but not sure about everything else
i hadnt yet fought phantom ganon so panic was defo high. and i think it was better that way. maybe it should of been done that the gloom hands dont appear till you defeat him here.
"Fight me." 🤣
I really like the idea of having all of the map markers pop up at the same time. I think that's the best way to ensure a less linear feeling progression. Because I agree, having linear progression to some degree is important, but for Hyrule Castle it feels like there should definitely be more variable progression options. But, if anyone is like you or me, they've probably already explored all of the areas that puppet Zelda pops up in anyway, so 🤣 Maybe it doesn't matter so much in that sense, who knows! I still definitely enjoyed it :)
Great bideo, Capt!!! ❤❤
The dialogue was definitely annoying like you just fought demons and yet the dialogue feels like it’s out of Disney JR show.
I did enjoy the chase but I wish maybe there was a different reaction to when Link finds Zelda instead of her always disappear. Maybe the taunts could start earlier. Maybe Link could somehow indicate that he knows it’s not her. I feel like he’s smarter than that so I agree with the point that he maybe he’s just playing along.
I know it has flaws but I still enjoyed this part of the game it was different
I hated how random fake Zelda's locations were. I remember this segment where we had to go to B1, take the stairs to B3, then ascend back to B1 to reach the other side of B3. If only her path was in a straight line I wouldn't have been frustrated by the backtracking. Boss fight was cool though
You do have another dungeon technically too
Um.. yes?
@@CaptBurgerson not ruining it. Just don't rush the ending yet
@@briandoe5746 uh… you know I’ve already played this game 100% right?
@@CaptBurgerson nope I didn't.
@briandoe5746 lol all good, but now you dooo. I don’t make videos about a game until I’m very familiar with it haha
Cheers friend
Tbh, i never thought of the hyrule castle in totk as a dungeon. That said though, i actually kinda liked it.
It had fun fights, strong enemies, and a cool cutscene. Granted, the story just doesnt work. It just shouldnt be called a dungeon imo
Untapped potential is a massive theme across totk as a whole lol
i kinda wish the dungeon had more monster's spread throughout it, i didn't follow the quest marker at first so i kinda just wandered around, ended up visiting all of the fight points before i was supposed to be there...
I think they missed out on an opportunity to have Link fight Phantom Ganon in the same chamber Calamity Ganon was in. The fact they somehow managed to fill in that hole is unbelievable. It was a clear drop to the room that I doubt they could just cover over, especially when the “restoration” of Hyrule is happening but everywhere looks the SAME.
I may disagree with you, Burgerson, but I liked the map in BotW because you could easily see every place at one and figure your climb better. In terms of story though, unlike Calamity Ganon, this Ganon has no reason to be here. The Phantom Zelda could’ve been an interesting final boss since they overused her stupid appearances in the main story. Have her use attacks from the previous four monsters instead of the “Rematch of Blights” that the Phantoms are basically to a degree. They also drop you super powerful weapons when each is killed.
That’s fair and I think the map thing depends on how you like to have your information available. Having them separated like that allows me to compartmentalize the rooms. The 3D map was like… too much information and it gets all muddied in my head
@@CaptBurgersonWhat I meant was that I found rotating the angle of the 3D map you’re given in BotW up above your marker inside. It helps me see what ways were open and what was not. In TotK, the map being broken up by floors made it tricky to remember which way was what because you don’t see ways of them connecting.
I legit got lost with the TotK map at times. At the time, though, I guess I had reached the Castle earlier than it wanted me to because I found out Link’s original shirt in the King’s Chamber.
@@asterthehedgehog6861 I totally get you. I think it is just one of those things where different people process information differently. What helped you gain more understanding had the opposite effect for me and vice versa. It’s kind of interesting to think about, and might be a train of thought that I look into again further down the line
Will the lead up to gloom’s origin and ganondorf count as a dungeon?
"go to glowing waypoint, fight some enemies, repeat"
Wait, this game is getting a little too AAA here...
As far as the music is concerned, I feel like it really is a shame that they have this new music track playing in the upper portion of the castle regardless of when you visit it. Like you can visit it at the start of the game, this dead, abandoned, crumbling castle with nothing but monsters squatting in it, and wander aimlessly around with massively intense and dramatic music, it just makes no sense. It's why I'm glad I never went into the upper castle until the plot demanded it, it gave the music more impact. Plus, not having heard it beforehand reinforces the empty and dead nature of the castle in my mind in a post-BotW world, as if everything that was going to happen there had happened and nobody would be there anymore until Phantom Ganon. It's one of those mid-level details about TotK I wasn't a fan of, plus being such a simple change would make it a much more impactful experience. Like just imagine visiting the upper castle at the start of the game and there's just no music whatsoever. How wonderfully off-putting that would be, leaving you with a sense of emptiness and dread that reflects the even more dilapidated state of the castle.
they couldve just showed us all the locations to go to at the start like the other 4 dungeons and its out job to check which one contains the actual zelda or something.
Yay!!!
I liked the Hyrule Castle much more in BotW