The Five Forts and Beyond (Great Empire of the Dawn!)
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
- Featuring GreyWasteTim, our Grey Waste sherpa! We'll explore the further east, from the Five Forts to the Bleeding Sea to Carcose to the frozen desert known as the Grey Waste. Don't miss it!
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Take me down to the Carcosa city where the king is yellow and the lakes are gritty
LOL NICE
🎵 oh the old ones are eating my bones 🎵
TAKE ME BEYOND (the Jade Gates) 🤣💀
The cold November Reynes 😂
Camilla: You, sir, should unmask.
Stranger: Indeed?
Cassilda: Indeed it’s time. We all have laid aside disguise but you.
Axl Rose, who is just very old and looks it: I wear no mask.
Camilla: (Terrified, aside to Cassilda.) No mask? No mask!
I already commented, but I want to reiterate. Please bring this guy back at some point. He had BY FAR the most insight into the far east I've ever experienced. Not all of it can be accurate of course, but it makes 100% sense as head canon, and that is all we can do for places like this. Grey Waste Tim absolutely nailed it
This comment aged incredibly well. So glad Tim became a regular guest!
💯
I want to build on the theory that the all the gemstone emperors who ruled for thousands of years were actually dynasties of peoples who ruled for thousands of years. My theory is that each time the GEotD conquered a new territory, the emperor took a bride from that land and the new son born of the new alliance, the new emperor, fashioned his own dynasty name with a different gemstone. It all came to a head when the GEotD annexed Leng, and the new daughter, the Amethyst Empress, began her reign.
Love it
would make more sense for them to be dynasties and not actual immortals because as far as we know immortals are always fucked in the head enough for the common people to not want them to be rulers
Maybe the land which became Valyria instead? The Bloodstone emperor took a Lengi woman as wife (“tiger woman”), if the Amesthyst Empress was also one GRRM would have written that part differently. It also patches up with Valyrians and Dany’s story.
I like that theory.
Five pages in a book turned into a 2.5 hour stream. Only on this channel. Love it! The last half hour about THe King in Yellow, Hastur etc. blew my mind. That's 100% correct, no doubt in my mind.
Grey Waste Tim brought the thunder! A true sherpa!
This is literally all I watch now. I have been BINGING your videos nonstop for almost 4 months. I love fantasy, but this level of emersion is on another level. I stand around scratching my neck like Tyrone Biggums waiting for new episodes to come out. Thank you for what you do, it is not lost on us! Mythical Astronomy/Lucifer Means Lightbringer/ David Lightbringer you’re not just going yourself, you’re taking us and your “crew” (Grey Waste Tim, Minty, Karl Karanark, etc.) along for the ride and we feel the love.
Correct
I've talked to Karsnark on several lore channels. He's a heck of a person very kind and well informed on many lore subjects
I love how plate subduction is a thing in asoiaf. I never thought something i learned about in a Magic Schoolbus edutainment game would come back into play with my favourite fantasy series
We are being guided by Quathe. In order to go forward we must first go back. History repeats which is why we love geeking out to the ancient history of Os so we can speculate about what will happen next. Love it
I think Euron went to Valyria. But he didn't go in his body, he skinchanged into one of this mute slaves and went there. He could have used slaves of Valyrian descent, so they would have had the heat resistance to live long enough to get back with the armour and dragonbinder (like Aerea)
To get both, think of how many slaves he would have had to mentally break, skinchange into, and use. You don't just find the two most valuable treasures in Westeros in the same ruined building with a giant x on the ground 'around' it. Years of Euron walking these bodies in...dying in those bodies countless horrible, gruesome times.
That's the only way he could have done it, but to do so, he must have perfected techniques of mental torture so intense they make MK Ultra look tame...
I like the idea that he wargs into octopuses as you could squeeze thru and avoid dangers that ppl couldn't
Always like seeing grey waste Tim. Brings good chat, good perspective.
In actual real battles fought in ancient times the main defense most places used was ditches believe it or not. Dig tons of ditches! Makes cavalry mean nothing and makes it super hard to storm a castle
Someone's been watching the "just dig ditches" medieval warfare expert guy on youtube haha
@@kevj4584 Which guy is that?
@@Prodigi50Peobably Shadiversity.
Always thought of plate tectonics looking at this map. Can see old extinct volcanoes. Example.. Yellowstone is a mega volcano but you can trace back where it's broken through as the plate passed over and crashed into the Pacific creating the rocky mountains.
Similar to the trail of underwater seamonts running from Hawaii to the coast of Japan. That’s the best “geothermal hotspot volcano trail” on earth I think. What’s the explanation for the Mother of Mountains, in your opinion?
@@DavidLightbringer I would guess an extinct volcano but don't know enough about it myself to really make a better judgement
When Grey Waste Tim gets going, it is so fun. He sounds a little like Mike Pillow when he gets excited. Except, instead of being crazy, he is crazy.... for literature.
You two play of each other incredibly well- Like Hugin and Munin passing on what they have learned to all the little Odins
Lol, this made me laugh.
I noticed that the three sister cities are made of red sandstone, grey granite, and basalt, black iron, and yellow bone respectively. This reminds me of the three walls of Karth, which are red sandstone and copper, grey granite and iron, and black basalt with gold studs. Any relation?
Came for the Ice and Fire,
Stayed for the real world lessons and analysis. So interesting!
This stream blew my mind. Especially the stuff about the Yellow King and Lovecraft. Definitely enjoy GWT as a guest!
It should be noted that Yiti really should be seen as a mixture of the Chinese empire and ancient India, especially in regard to the plentiful old ruins. In my opinion, I don't quite see the Great empire of the Dawn as the Mongol empire, except for the size similarity of course.
Yeah they are more like Atlantis, Numenor, etc etc. Totally mythical and high fantasy. But to your point not steppe nomads, no. Urban and war like
@@DavidLightbringer I agree. Quite in general, your channel is by far the best related to the topic; by far.
Euron is getting possessed by the Bloodstone Emperor.
The Five Forts is my favorite ice cream flavor.
The bloodless men remind me of the old blood of Volantis, but they’d look more like bloodraven. Not to mention they have cities (plural). If the forts are a parallel to the wall, the dragon riders would come from beyond the forts, like the others from beyond the wall. Isn’t there a line near the end of the world book suggesting the forts were built to keep the demons IN, instead of OUT? Kind of like the theory the others built the wall
Only a little over an hour into this so I don't know if it's been discussed or not, but I wonder what organisation or order mans the Five Forts. Is it a Yi Ti-ish version of the Nights Watch? Regular army? And do they have the same problems manning them as the Watch has with the Wall, with dwindling numbers?
The Forts supposedly can house ten thousand men each; I wonder how many are actually in each fort.
I made one live for once gonna have to try and do that more often that was alot of fun. And thank you for all you do and for bringing on Grey Waste. The insight between the 2 of you is just amazing. Cheers comrades. Gonna catch the parts I missed while I go praise garth!
right on Conrad good to see you in the chat!
Great stream and some threat stuff covered. Big thank you to both you guys! Also I’m sooo excited and ready for a lengthy ice spiders video. I’m wondering if we might finally see one in TWOW if the Others end up attacking.
It was great to catch a live stream after such a long time. Tim was a great addition as well.
Great stream! Great guest...... keep em coming and we'll keep watching!
I'd say, though, that dragons are just as famous in western mythology. These cultures had merely been very primitive when the eastern ones were already highly sofisticated.
Well I mean it’s subjective but all these dragons come from PIE expansion. But if you compare, say, Norse myth (which is the closest to original PIE, seemingly), there’s just Jormungandr and Fafnir, whereas if you go to India, Iran, and other southeast Asian countries, there are dragons and nagas everywhere. Chinese culture has the most dragons of anyone. So yeah I think the east is where dragons come from.
@@DavidLightbringer I think this is not quite a logical conclusion. You can't quite say that there is any consensus about dragons coming from the east. As main aspects like Jormungandr and Fafnir, there are not that many in Chinese or Japanese mythology. They have more of a symbolic nature. In Indian mythology, there is mostly the Naga snake, which is not quite clear as a dragon. As parts of tales and story elements, they have always been common in both cultures. Furthermore, with the common origin of the Indo-European or Indo-Germanic culture, they probably derive from the same people.
@@LamiNalchor with all respect, you're simply wrong. Chinese mythology is FULL of dragons - the story of Sun Wukong alone has 4, one for each of the cardinal directions. All dragons are symbolic, all mythology is symbolic, Jormungandr is symbolic, this has nothing to do with how many dragons there are. In Vedic myth, there are more than the Nagas, many more. Vritra is involved in the creation myth and is largely parallel to Jormungandr as a PIE derivative myth. Rahu and Ketu are serpent demons, as are many of the Asuras. There are also many serpents in Vedic myth, such as Vasuki or the one Vishnu sleeps on, and that's the same thing - Jormungandr is usually described as a serpent, you'll recall. Then we go over to Iranian myth, where we have Azi Dahaka, king of the demons, and Gochir, and many others.
Yes, many of these myths come from the original dragon-slayer PIE myth - my point was that when those people spread out and eventually merged with various indigenous populations, the resulting mythologies that sprung up in the east had way more dragons than those in the west. It could be that there were already dragon myths in the east - Chinese ones that leaked out, probably - or it could be that the Proto-Indo-Iranians in the east just ran wild with the original dragon slayer myth whereas the steppe peoples who went west did not. Either way, there are far more dragons and serpents in eastern mythology, which is a well known fact that I'm surprised to find anyone arguing with. That's precisely why Martin put the dragon origins in the east.
Why you you would speak so assertively from ignorance is beyond me, but you very obviously do not know what you are talking about here.
@@DavidLightbringer This is highly disrespectful to a degree that I am not willing to accept. Offside the presentations in your videos you seemingly have no experience in discussions or logical exchange - definitely not in a friendly or classy manner. I don't interact with such behavior. This is the end for me of this discussion.
A great A Song of Ice and Fire livestream as usual! Although it did get a little weird when Mr. Lightbringer tucked in his junk and started dancing naked in front of a mirror to the song “Goodbye Horses” while wearing is Reading Rhaegar wig.
not sure what got in to me yeah
@David Lightbringer I think it was bc the Amethyst Empress did something similar, and it freaked out the Maiden Made of Light so she turned her back. That's how the long night started.
About to get grey wasted 🤘💚🔥
🤣🤣🥂
Load up on that weirwood paste and some Shade of the Evening to pair
Read your name as "my thicc astronomy" for a sec and had a lil laugh
Great stream, Tim was awesome!
“Can we go to Bonetown” sounds like the title of the world’s least-subtle R & B song.
Great stream as usual, thank you David and Tim.
Thankyou David. You make sad times bearable with your escape hatch. I just cannot thank you enough.
Such an interesting video! Thank you LML and GWT!
Sadly missed the live stream. But watching it now and wow! Only 15mins in and I'm digging it! The idea about Crasters sons is so good!! I really like it.
Edit: oh! Also LOVE the Five Fort art!!
Great stream. Love Tim and his theories.
GRRM and Robert Jordan were actually good friends and did you know that there is a Maester in Old Town named after him, Trebor Jordayne of the Tor. His Coat of Arms is a Golden Quill on a checkered background.
100% yes I’m aware! Really awesome nod to RJ there
@@DavidLightbringer I finally got around to finish watching the video and noticed that you had mentioned RJ.
I'm late to the party, but you might be on to something with the ingredients to dragon steel as ots based on wootz or crucible steel from Sri Lanka and Damascus (not to be confused with what we now call today, Damascus steel, which is just pattern welded). This steel was made in a crucible with a very exact recipe that included glass, iron ore with vanadium and I think some sand to help pull impurities out.
That’s what I have found as well. It’s fun research I love sword tech
great stream as always! Gave GreywasteTim the subscription. Hope to learn more about the lovecraft Mythos in the future
To me it almost seems like the Five Forts protect against all these different human animal hybrids which was Yi-Ti's way of trying to protect against the terrible past of their people
Great topic
Here is my offering to the algorytm
Tyrion's first chapters where he's reading the book from Winterfell's Library they talk about the high iron content in dragonbone
Wish I’d watched you live but I in was in a class. Excellent as always. Thank you guys. Hello to the birds. X
Another fantastic stream!!! Love when you have GWT on. You guys have wonderful chemistry on these streams. Thanks for the videos 💜
Got the feeling David Lightbringer was so excited to have this convo he couldn't slow down enough to have it
These great empire of the dawn have been some of my favorites
Great discussion with insightful guest. Me gusto mucho.
Love the references to the little Ice age, and Younger Dryas! Always very interested in climate disasters!
One of your best videos
Grey Waste Tim is an awesome sherpa!
Looks like you just cracked the Euron Greyjoy symbolism wide open!
I’ve been waiting for a stream on this topic for so long. Thanks for delivering the great content! (That goes for Greywaste Tim too)
Hell yeah Tim is the one to thank he did a ton of prep work! But Ive been passing along all the praise and kind words so he knows. :)
Great stream! I love the geology and Lovecraft parallels/ Euron predictions
Love the format of this stream.
hell yeah GWT brought it!
Fisher Queens are Squisher Queens 👑💙🐟
🤯🤯🤯
ah yes time to spend 2+ hours listening to my fav ASOIAF youtuber talk abt my fav ASOIAF topic: world-building
yeah you didn't have to twist my arm either lol
Damn , missed it by 2hrs!! Love your streams and videos!!! Thankyou so much!!
this one was a doozy, Grey Waste Tim is awesome
You saved the best for last! The Yellow Emperor stuff is amazing.
Regarding the AD.536 cooling, it was most likely an eruption of Krakatau, the same one remembered from its 1883 eruption, in the Sunda Strait, between Java and Sumatra. It led to Avar migrations from the Mongolian Steppes heading west, and many other global social upheavals, not leasy Bubonic Plague outbreaks and the fall of the empire in Yemen and rise of Islam. The c1247 eruption was most likely Mt Samalas on the island of Lombok, west of Java, and several other eruptions in the Americas and Iceland were also recorded and Chinggis Khan's moves coincide with that cooling phase. "The Year without Summer" is 1815/16 following the eruption of Tambora, also in Indonesia. None of those eruptions were technically supervolcanoes though all were big eruptions. Damn fine video!
I was born like a month before Mount St Helens too! The world was never the same
In memory sorrow thorn the dragon bone is described as yellow- or the dragonbone chain is I think. Maybe yellow bone a nod to that
Super fun
Love the map based/geology theories!
Great start of the friday, this. Always happy to see Grey Waste Tim as a guest.
This was really cool. I didn't realise those forts are so big!
Oldtown is like Alexandria Egypt
Nice one, lads. Refreshing to see people schooled in not just the lore but concepts such as literary tradition and especially The Yellow King, which I recommend to anyone watching and is public domain so available free in ebook.
I've always though of The Wall in Westeros being inspired by Hadrian's Wall, while the Five Forts, being closer to YeeTee being inspired in part by the Great Wall of China, only where the Great Wall's forts are mostly destroyed now, the Five Forts being MUCH more prominent and vast.
There is a lake in Southern Alabama that's red because of iodine. It's freshwater also
🔥 stream. Really enjoying these collaborations with GW Time.
Why do we assume that the Empire of the Dawn made the 5 fortes and not the city of Qdath. It seems likely the EoD, but Qdath is closer to Westeros and if people sailed from the east, Qdath civilization is close. The base of the high tower is unlike other works we know of, could be Qdath architecture. Right?
Excellent stream! So I find it compelling that K’Dath says they are the “first and oldest” and not just the oldest of cities. Could the first city have the first men, and can we have a land-bridge theory on them getting to Westeros? They are clearly based on Native Americans in some ways they are described in early days, so I feel like a land bridge theory isn’t crazy. So if they scatter in all directions, as the names of Azor Ahai imply, then those that went East could have gone the over-land route and been on that side after the long night. So the frozen shore tribes and more like the Arctic tribes that stayed up there instead of people who just kept walking up from the arm of Dorne.
So it could be that the early inhabitants were more than one migration. An Arctic route and a (maybe Garth-led) southern route, and then some over-the-sea Great Empire travelers (Green-eyes Lannisters anyone?).
GRRM has definitely said Planetos is a globe, we just don’t know quite how big it is, but we know there are routes.
What if the children break the arm to stop the others and the lion of night from combining there army’s
Lol a dreamer king? Well I guess that describes bran perfectly.
great live stream!
Thank you both! 💜
Hi from Canada 🇨🇦 It’s Always super cool to watch a video with both of you Guys, It was a real delight for the brain to hear your point of view about the great empire of the dawn. Thanks 🙏🏻 LML & Grey Waste Tim👌🏻👌🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👌🏻👌🏻💪🏼💪🏼😃🙋🏼♀️
Glad you enjoyed it!
Sam/Aeoron connecting chapters a la Meeranese knot will be awesome. That’s how we can kind of sort it out.
A good example in the story too cement the idea of a ruined empire having groups fleeing in different directions is what happened after the doom of Valyria. Some went west and formed New Valyria, some went east like to the island of Elyria, and some lucky few families went way west and settled in Westeros. It's probably the exact same thing that happened when the Dawn Empire fell.
Great job on this one
Loving this stream, and I’m geeking over the geography and archaeology. So much fun! And I don’t think this is too tinfoil-y; it feels pretty intuitive to me!
(Also, I’m almost *certain* I know the natural history documentary you binged. Did it have really fun graphics based off of satellite data? Because if so, baller! If not, “Earth From Space” sounds like it’d be right up your alley!)
EDIT to the edit to answer re mountain ranges - yes! You’re describing a subduction fault, where one plate (usually made of heavier materials) goes under another plate, melting as it does. That tends to cause earthquakes, not mountain ranges, due to the crust eventually “rebounding”. (See: San Andreas fault). Convergent faults (like the Himalaya) are when two plates collide and, neither being lighter than the other, both thrust upwards as the plates collide. In this case, the Bones Mountains appear to have been formed by the collision of the Eastern Essosi plate with the Central Essosi Plate. That would also potentially cause the drying of the large lake; if that were formed due to rainfall, the presence of the Bones might put that area in the rain shadow, thus removing the rain and drying the lake
In regards to dragon experiments, its ironic to think the first dragonrider was a slave, since they wouldn't experiment on themselves.
I can imagine the scene when they finally worked.
*slave mounts and rides dragon*
"It worked! Yesss."
*slave realizes he is now riding a nuclear weapon and heads for the masters that experimented on him*
"Whats he doing? Oh shit. Run!!!"
*masters learn you can't outrun a dragon*
And thus the first of the Emperors was born..
makes sense to me tbh. the “blood of the dragon” is a genetic experiment carried out in the GEOTD to make people who could control dragons
Great stuff - thank you both!
Get the feeling that the gem stone emperors definitely had some green seer blood raven abilities
Check out secret origins of the green men: Isle of Leng in the weirwoods and greenseers playlist. You may be right
Valerian steel is made from iorn and steel refined from blood. It takes 2200 humans to get enough iorn to forge a sword with it, much more for steel.
This was an idea, I thought was original, for my book but after reading grrm I'm pretty sure that's where he's going with it, especially since blood is the essence of magic
Fire and Blood. 🐉🐲🐉
Very fun stream guys, the five forts are so fascinating. (And loved your ending comments 😃)
It sounds like Grey Waste Tim just watched the recent Kings & Generals’ video on how the Mongols lost China 😉
Yes I did. Oringinally i was gonna talk generic reasons for why empires fall but then after that K&G vid came out I was like "this sounds a lot like Long Night environmental disasters" and made some edits. That and their video on the Indonesian super volcano factoring into the Mongol downfall were huge inspirations.
so entertaining
The thousand island may have been created the same way long island NY was.. as the glaciers receded they deposited lots of rock and soil.. as they retreated north off essos, the island developed or was land that got covered by a growing glacier moving southward.. just crushing and grinding it down to just a thousand little islands
As you also mentioned, the Emperors name may have just meant a title for that dynasties leader. Dany’s vision seems to show these emperors in the flesh though.
just found this channel. first video ive watched and im subscribing now. love lore and history videos of different books and universes
welcome! You've come to the right place!
Great content
Great stream
I really enjoyed the Yellow King conversation. The ambiguity of Euron's situation is really conducive to building the aura around him. As much as we would all like to know exactly what is going on, the unreliable narrator aspect of these books adds so much beauty and depth to the way we understand these things. The allusions to his greater intent, without real notions of how he will get there or what will be done to accomplish it, make Euron seem even more sinister to me. Mostly because we know he is very capable and has very bad intentions. Couple with that his lack of regular appearances in POV chapters, the fact that, when he does happen to speak, he says terrifying things, and the sheer terror that his own family have when they think of him. All we're left with is a character shrouded in the mystery of misinformation and intimidation. He is unpredictable and somewhat unknowable, not unlike the Others. George is able to give us so much to think about regarding these things and yet leave so much open to interpretation, while still leaving the door open for the eventual resolution of the plot. It's a masterpiece. Great stream guys. I'm glad to be a part of this community and to have a place where there is so much quality discussion to participate in and learn from.
My Wife and I are living for 8888 Years with ALL of you 🫶🏿🫶🏿🫶🏿🌹🌹🌹🍾🦄🦄🦄
Love this steam :)
Love these streams that dive into the weirder stuff, keep’m coming!!
Guys love your collaboration! And this one was the best so far. Please hit us with more! 🙏👊
Please put these all on spotify!! Great work as always