Somethings to point out. All ship prices INCLUDE A-Rated modules, not just the ship purchase price. Also, Yes, there are rank requirements for some of the ships. But ranks are very easy to get these days if selecting missions with rank rewards. Even still most of the ships I recommend do not have rank requirements.
Another superior class vid from you. Even though I am no longer your target audience, I always enjoy your top quality content. And I absolutely agree with all your recommendations for new CMDRs. Cheers!
Vindicator Jones what are the differences between the chieftain and the Crusader/challenger? is there much difference in combat or is the chieftain just that much better out of the three?
Great video, but I have a question. Did the value of credits go up? I remember the eagle being like 50k or something? I haven't played in a while so Idk.
This is one of the best guides out there for new players...both in terms of content & editing/production quality. 'Needs adding to Alec's 'Best of the Forum' thread, imnsho.
God how much I hate when "2x 1F pulse laser + 2 small hardpoints" and the 1F are on bigger hardpoints. Why don't you put the small lasers on the small hardpoints, then?! How am I supposed to know what kind of hardpoints the ship has?
@@AksenowtCc Yeah, they should list the size of the compartments instead of what's installed in them. When I first started off I slept on a lot of ships because I took that information at face value
Fantastically well put together video. Your content is consistently polished and thoughtful. Dedicated UA-camrs like you are the reason I still play elite
this is all well and good, and I am not speaking of my "favorite" ships, but I do believe the Kraits should have been mentioned, as they are superb combat ships. One could say even more so than the Mamba.
Great video! For people who aren't sure, this still holds up as of June 2020 (including the Fleet Carrier update). Since this video is aimed toward beginners, I'd like to add that selling or trading ALL ship modules returns 100% of the price you paid for them. The only place you lose money on selling or trading toward a new ship is with ships themselves -- you lose 10% of the base value of the ship when you sell or trade it. And I'll emphasize that it's 10% of the BASE cost. VJ's listed price of 3.4 million is after fully A-rating the ship. But if you were to trade it in toward a new ship, the ship's base cost is around 129,000, so you'd only actually be losing about 13,000 credits. Or 1 kill in a HazRES. But I 100% agree with VJ here: You CANNOT skip the Vulture. If your main activity in ED is combat, you have no better ship to learn in, and the things you learn will apply to literally every other ship in the game.
This video was exactly what I needed. Only started playing recently, but I have been grinding a lot of exploration and trade loops. Got about 300 million to spend. Going to take your advice and jump into a Vulture to learn combat properly. Also the production values on this video were incredible.
I just started playing less than a month ago. Didn't understand the ship differences and/or what to look for next. This had been the best video in helping me understand the combat ships abilities level by level. Thank you so much!!
I love the Mamba for it's cockpit alone. That's what makes me want the Mamba to get a rework from the devs so much. Sadly it's current combat abilities are lacking. That said, I'll either be flying the FDL or Vette depending on if I want a fast nimble ship or a sledge hammer.
Been off the E:D servers for a while, but the Mamba interests me, too. In terms of looks it's definitely a drag racer. As for the weapons load, my gut feeling is to use the two large and the huge hardpoints very conventionally, probably for two large multicannon and a laser - whatever won't suck the cap dry or overheat the ship. Given the poor maneuverability, the two small hardpoints could mount missile launchers to deal with smaller, more nimble ships. Just my two-cents' worth...
Video is of staggering quality. Everything looks very clean yet informative. The only thing I missed was the maneuverability of each ship where the rest of the information was. Amazing shots in between the informative parts as well. Hat off sir.
All the information I needed, and so much more that I didn't know that I didn't know. Your videos are all one-stop master-classes. You don't just give recommendations, but you say why. First place I come If I wanna know anything. Well done! 20 minute vid with not an ounce of fat on it.
This might be the most well made video I've ever seen. On any topic. Aside from informative and engaging, it was genuinely pleasing to watch. CMDR Jones, your presentation is phenomenal and I thank you for a guide well made.
...that they are probably indispensable now, given how completely r3tard3d the new AI is. Still ignores module damage (a bug that was briefly fixed before and the fix WORKED, thank god... but with the new update, the bug came back), it's desperately INSANE about shooting you from 20m and behind (before it seemed the ai did it's best, but it couldn't quite keep up with the player. you could still outflank it just fine even with a heavy ship. after the update tho, may god have mercy on you if you pick a fight with an elite FAS or clipper) and it HAS to do absolutely EVERYTHING it can to meet the damage quota (witch quota is probably at least 100% of your shield dropped per enemy ai encountered. if you don't loose all your shields in 1vs1, then then enemy will go berserk at 5% shield or after it lost them and "remember" all the weapons installed on the ship and use them to their maximum efficiency. that means 20m strafing run attacks, ramming, everything it can to do to damage you, this new ai will do it. regardless of collateral damage, ramming attempts that result in the ai's ship being destroyed in the process... nothing is off the table with this new ai). To be totally honest, before the update my {Tier 5 A rated highly engineered highly agile shield tanked} corvette had most ai controlled ships, even elite pilots for dinner. But now, i'm in trouble after a single wing of clippers, or asps, or hell even diamondbacks are harder to deal with now. I honestly don't know if the devs thought the previous iteration of combat ai was perhaps underwhelming, or whatever the reason, and tbh i honestly think i don't want to know... but as things are atm... the ai simply looks brain-dead. Insane, cheating, reckless and stupid, but mostly just brain-dead. Not the best impression for a new player to meet upon.
I'm Elite in Trade and Exploration but only novice in combat, mainly from defending myself in trading. This video was very helpful and not condescending at all
I am getting into combat (my least played playstyle) thanks to these videos. I blew up my first NPC pirate interdictor the other day and I had the biggest smile on my face.
When looking for an upgrade to your medium-sized ship, for example the chieftain, you might also try and give the Krait MkII a go. The three large hardpoints on top are awesome and, if fitted with pulse lasers, can do quite a lot of damage. The ship is even capable of using three large beam lasers. Now, the Krait MkII is not the most maneuverable ship, but engineering her with lvl2 dirty drives (which doesn't take a lot of work) changes that dramatically, she becomes incredibly nimble. With A-rated power plant and power distributer, you get unlimited boost, and even though dirty drives increase heat generation, you can still keep your three large beam lasers, as the Krait runs incredibly cool and doesn't really overheat that much. I was really surprised how much fun the Krait is to fly in combat, in fact, when equipped and flown properly, she can make Anaconda pilots break quite a sweat.
Krait is Great... pun intended, but its more of a multipurpose ship. And although it handles itself nicely in a fight, it didnt make my list, because its combat performance is not as effective as the four I mentioned. But hey, if someone is in the market for a good multipurpose combat ship, the krait mk II gets my nod.
@@VindicatorJones Hm, I'd say that the Krait is able to outperform the Chieftain, it has more firepower, and I destroy FDLs (literally and figuratively) with it. But that's of course also a question of how much the ship suits you. And since you were going for non-engineered builds mostly, I agree. It has to be engineered for it to really shine. A question: if you give the Mamba dirty drives to up maneuverability, will it be able to handle the heat or is that still an issue?
I now use my Krait Mk II as my mining ship with 3 large efficient beams, one abrasion blaster, and one seismic charge launcher, it's perfect as it's fast and maneuverable enough to make core mining easy, then when I get interdicted with a belly full of void opals I have no problems at all just submitting and blowing the pirate to pieces with ease, even if it's a high ranked pilot in a well armed ship. It's probably not the most effective dedicated bounty hunting ship, but it sure has teeth once it's engineered.
@@raenfox I have grade 5 dirty drag drives on my Mamba and haven't noticed any problems with heat from boosting, though I don't use it a lot currently. I think the weapon loadout is probably the biggest factor to how much of a problem heat is.
I upped from my Vulture (flown for more than 2.5 years) to a Krait Mk II. It's a great multipurpose ship and I even have a separate loadout for kill missions. I had been saving up for a Python but found the Fighter bay (Ship Launched Fighters) to be quite useful! As VJ mentioned, the cockpit view of the Fer de Lance irritates some people and I am one of those. I have mostly A-rated her (and even with a C-rated power plant, you have enough energy to keep on boosting), and am yet to engineer her, but from what I have studied, she's said to be as nimble as a regular FdL, after engineering.
I’ve tried the FAS and the Fer de Lance, but surprisingly I found the best combat ship is a Clipper. I really didn’t expect that but its agility is off the charts, even Vultures are easy. I also loved the Chieftain.
Nice work, thanks. I've got my fair share of Bounty hunting down and worked my way up through a Cobra MK III, Vulture, Python and now I fly an Anaconda. Wish your video was out 2 years ago when I struggled to find a ship after the Cobra, but I 100% agree with the Vulture. It was at least back then - a total fragile ship. You NEEDED to know how to fly it and especially how to maneuver it to properly stay on target - otherwise you would be toast in seconds. Especially when you took on bigger targets than yourself. I really, really hope you do a follow up on this video with L-Pad ships because I would love to know: 1) If the Anaconda is in there and 2) What ships in general are listed in there. Right now I'm flying across the Galaxy in my Anaconda by participating in the Distand Worlds II tour to Beagle Point with complete equipment for 62Ly jumps. I think I really, really need to roughen up my feathers with Bounty Hunting and my Anaconda or possibly a new ship when I hopefully get back safe and sound from Beagle Point. Keep up the amazing work - really love it.
I'm so glad i found this video before upgrading my combat ship, the chieftain is my favorite ship now and i can verify everything you said about it is true. The most fun to fly combat ship imo, so much so that i end up taking those massacre missions without getting bored.
I appreciate that you are comparing these ships in generic "vanilla" builds. I've been playing the game off and on since the days of Beta 2, and decided to dive back into the game recently. The last time I played the game religiously was around the time Engineers were first introduced, but I quit playing the game after that. Every time I look for builds now, everybody has these crazy builds engineered out the rear end, and I have absolutely no idea how to even start climbing the ladder to acquire all of the stuff to get those kinds of builds. As someone who spent most of the early days in a Viper, then got a Vulture, I think my next upgrade is gonna be the Chieftan. Thanks for the video man.
As a new Commander to this game, your video was extremely helpful. Not only that, your content is extremely polished and well put together. Instant sub. Keep up the stonking great content, mate!
I watched this excellent video maybe ten times when I first got into the game. Decided to revisit it now 6 months later. Purely IMO, but the Mamba is vastly better than portrayed here and for PVE at least, the Krait MKII belongs among the very best combat ships.
Great video! Your videos have helped me a lot, and this one is great too. Personally, I've been flying the Mamba for the past month or two, and although I only do PVE, I feel that when engineered correctly, I can go toe to toe with pretty much anything out there. I can sit in front of a conda and punch it until my shields start to fade (usually a lot after the conda is bust), or run away when my shields are down completely. I feel that the Mamba allows a lot of room for error for novices like me, since I can beef up the shields while still maintaining the speed to run. (I'd fly the FDL too, except for the bar across the screen...grrr).
Great Video! And Oh how right you were. I'll tell my story. I was starting at Dromi, the beginners Location and stayed there for about two weeks, learning, and it is a great place to learn. Yes it does not have some types of missions, but it has the crucial ones. I started with my sidewinder and made money, after i've reached 500k i did the wrong thing at the time, which was to buy a Cobra MkIII. Dromi is known for the little variety in Upgrades, so a little over 500k is absolutely enough to buy the best parts they have there, and i'll tell you, BOY was i dissapointed. The ship felt like a giant sidewinder without the maneuverability. I was so sad, because i wanted to use it for combat. The truth was, i was not ready for it yet + it was not the ship that worked in combat there. All these Eagles and Vipers gave me the ass whoopin i deserved. Then, after slowly building another 500k, i bought a Viper and i was hooked!!. Much more power, for little less. The perfect first step as you said. Now, another 1,5 weeks later i am learning the ship from day to day, as the learning curve, especially with FA off is hard. Since then i flew all the way to Pikum, to get the cheaper parts and i've upgraded the Ship to the max (No Engineering yet). The most exciting are the Pirate assasinations for over 500k. They pit me against Vultures and even FDL, and i am able to win, but almost always barely and after a few tries. Those fights are so exciting!
The "Vulture days" are a good memory for me. My game plan was always to bounty hunt in the Vulture until I could afford a Fer-de-Lance, and that's exactly what I did. I do remember a brief period where I felt like maybe it wasn't all that much better than the Vulture after all, but for whatever reason I just found I was getting so good in the FDL so quickly. It was a natural fit for sure. And now I'm a master of the Fer-de-Lance taking out Anacondas with power plant hits when they're still above 80% hull 😂
This video is so good. This basically matches my entire ship progression (vulture -> chieftain -> FDL) and I loved how each felt. I'm very interested in the Mamba though. I want to make a speedy "hit-and-run" barrage build and just run passes at enemy ships.
I remember when I was a new commander and for the longest time used a Asp Explorer for bounty hunting, then I blew up without my rebuy and had to start over again. But this time I decided to go for the Vulture since I liked it's two large hard points, and I couldn't be happier. It's easily my favorite small combat ship in the game.
Watching this right before 2021, upgraded to a Vulture the last day off I had and have had time for ONE mission in it. Already read up on power management, so after accepting a mission I whipped out my guns outside the no fire zone and realized I had to change the load out to separate them so I could even fire them xD ended up being an easy victory though and I'm in love!!
One of the best and most informative videos ive seen to date. Really gave me a good perspective considering ive been wanting to upgrade off the imperial eagle for awhile but havent had an idea to what i should go to next.
I just came back to ED after about a 4+ year break. Took out my FDL and a Cobra killed me....so this video is very very helpful. For now, using my DBS till I get the hang of things again. Great presentation!!!
Almost 500 hours playing elite dangerous and I’m still learning new things in your videos, loved the quality of it too. Looking forward to the next one.
Nice video mate. Love the name on the viper😂 You've just convinced me to try the chieftain, as I skipped the alliance ships for fed, and now I'm in a Vette
Fantastically clear and informative. I like how you go the pros and cons of each option but still make a recommendation for each tier, AND include upgraded modules in the prices. For an inexperienced pilot like me, this video is perfect. Insta-subbed.
Thanks for the research and advice. I was thinking about just going straight to FdL after doing nothing but space truckin' and mining, but I'll get a Vulture and learn the ropes in that one first.
Really well made video, I've been thinking about doing more combat in elite and this is an excellent guide to start me off, I would love to see videos like this on trading, mining, exploring etc.
Great video. Fully agree with your suggestions. I remember going from a Vulture to the FdL and hating it. I still have my Vulture just for the fun of it.
Really enjoyed the video; bring on the big ships guide/commentary!! I have a bit less than 400 hours so far in Elite and I would say about 90% of that has just been space trucking. I really just enjoy the slow steady pace of it, as well as the challenge to try and chain missions in the most optimal was possible. I have done a bit of combat and exploration as well, but haven't put a lot of time into either. I did buy and A-rate a Mamba not long ago and just flew around for a bit and immediately fell in love. I learned combat in a Vulture and I really felt at home in the Mamba (i have been using a Python for trucking for the majority of my Elite time). I love the hardpoint options and want to turn it into a A-10 Thunderbolt II (aka Warthog) type bounty brawler, though it was fun to hear what you thought about different loadouts.
Outstanding quality on this video! I really enjoyed the graphics and visual effects. Incredible advise for both veterans and newbies! Keep up the great work VJ! O7
This is super useful information. Thank you! A bit miffed because I don't think you've given the Cobra its due, but I admit I'm very biased. I'd never given the Vulture a second look, but now it looks like that's probably going to be my next ship. PLEASE do a similar vid for AX builds! My long term goal is Thargoid hunting, but there's a lot of conflicting information out there and I feel somewhat in the dark.
Like you, I never bothered with the Vulture; two large hardpoints just seemed underwhelming. Decided to give it a go yesterday, A-Rated everything on it and ran two C3 burst lasers. The thing is a true beast mate; I've been sticking to the tail of Eagles AND popping Anacondas and I'm a mediocre pilot. Give the Vulture a fair try, it's a surprisingly fun ship.
Awesome breakdown man thanks for all the tips and information. I think I’m gonna explore for cash and buy a chieftain and try out combat. It’s something I’ve never really delved into
Great video, man that editing must have taken a while! I agree the FDL is an advanced ship and takes lots of patience/practice. Fixed weapons anyone?! Miss more than i hit! Thanks for sharring! Hard work my friend.
I really like your attention to detail and how well you were able to explain the progression on combate oriented ships. Ive been searching for this specific information for days, you're the only person so far thats covered the topic of ship progression from noob to mid to late game. I have about 140 hours into the game, and i am still lost. I've been running an asp explorer and ive got about 23 million credits from bounty hunting. I've started the engineering process, but it's a little difficult to tussle with atm. But i was wondering if you had an undated video covering this same topic. Are things still the same in your opinion? Is there a community i could join that might not mind helping a noob nobody like me? Love the video this was excellent and gave me some much needed insight.
Brilliant, +Vindicator Jones -- not long before you made this video, I actually asked this very Question over on Facebook . . . Great timing. Thank you.. ;)
I loved my FL but as soon as I unlocked and purchased a cutter I cant go back and it's not because of the tanky sheilds it's because of the clean look I dont get the same feel in the FL anymore
The Chieftain was the first ship I used that made me really like plasma accelerators. The two large hardpoints being both on the center line and both on top of the ship makes it very easy to use fixed hardpoint weapons in that slot - and a pair of large plasmas deliver a punch that nothing can ignore.
Unmatched content and video quality... simply on point like always! Been following VJ for years for that reason. Also I couldn't agree more with his recommendations! Fantastic summary! I am very keen to see the evolution of the mamba, I think next to sniping its intent is to use its fast speed to circle around enemies in FA off. I saw some good examples by CMDR Echo3 and would be interested what you think about it.
I have been playing with a sniper build, but honestly, its not my greatest strength. I am an up and close brawler.. Although admittedly, I have been having some success brawling in the mamba using a fully engineered build.. And I have to say, I like it.
Wow I forget now what I sold when I bought my Chieftain. I really like that ship. You could stuff it with a goodly amount of cargo but still refit to make a very dangerous ship. I sold it for a Python and started running a lot of cargo in that and also mining. Made a ton of money mining and bought an FDL. I do remember thinking I made a big mistake with the FDL. My first outings in combat were lackluster. Shields were ok but took forever to recharge after each fight. Then I started packing shield boosters and engineering drives, boosters, shields, and weapons. Dirty drives make all the difference keeping that bottom hardpoint on task. With the engineered shield boosters, switching to Bi-Weaves and engineering that for better resistances, few things get beyond my first ring. By the time they come around for a second pass, they have recharged quite a bit. The only huge drawback is the annoyingly short jump range. GETTING the FDL to a battle requires packing a lunch. Full FSD engineering gets me up around 20ly since "lightness" is not an option. For my travelling to engineers, I swap in a 4A scoop so my peanut sized fuel tank is refilled before I make it around a star. For normal work it is a 2A and I just have to eat the time between jumps sipping stargas slowly and watching heat. Even with in-system combat you have to watch your fuel because it drops fast.
I jumped into the Fer-De-Lance as my first dedicated bounty hunting ship and enjoyed it very much--but not as much as the Chieftain, which I fly now. Great video. Highly recommend the Cobra Mk III, the ASP Explorer and the Chieftain.
The Mamba's speed adjustment is insane from what I've found, it's so light and I loved that aspect of it... Going back to the Fer-de-Lance, I'm still a shit combat pilot but I'm realising it's the ship for me. Your videos are VERY good btw, just cut down on the "and that's ok" and I won't die trying to kill you because of it, if I ever see you in the vastness of space. 😉
o7 Great video CMDR. I have started over multiple times to come up with a good starting point and path to follow. You have really hit the nail on the head with this video. Thank you.
Thanks for the video - really informative! Jumped from Vulture to Alliance Chieftain. I guess was too nube to pilot Vulture effectively. Thinking to return to it after working on engineering some more.
Seriously well done mr jones The background music The detailed explanation The care put into everything is overwhelming So thank you so much you're a prime example of how elite content creators should be like but leaving my biased opinion aside What's the background ambient track name if you please? Oh and the big three? I'd love to hear more from your point of view about them Background ambient track name found.
Man the production on this video is great! Kudos! I actually do fly a Mamba for combat! I do place a big emphasis on looks and cockpit layout, though, so take that for what it's worth. Even so, I haven't found an Elite combat mission I couldn't easily manage basically kitting it out like a shield-tank FDL. Quite likely any fully engineered medium ship is probably going to do that, really... so, y'know.. might as well do them while you're looking and sounding good. :D
I most certainly did! Boy did I cop a lot of flak from my Clan when that mech was released, especially when the prime vindicator mech had jones written on the side.
I loved the FAS, but lately I've really been getting in to the mamba, I don't know why. I guess It's the way you feel when you take down someone in it, more fulfilling in a way.
I jumped into the FDL pretty early and loved it, but it definitely takes a considerable amount of time to grow accustomed to. I have a pretty cavalier way of flying so personally I loved the drifty flying and necessary FAO maneuvers
Sooo fun fact: I found this video after purchasing I'd just gotten my Chieftain. Before that I had a Vulture. Apparently I had a pretty good idea, and I'm glad to see someone who actually knows how to fly (or use a HOTAS?) Recommend the same ships I've chosen for progression. Or at least for combat progression...just ignore my DBX and Type-7.
Just starting to get the hang of my Viper 3 and can enter a conflict zone, take on some Cobras and even a Python, and make it out alive. I hated it at first, but I've found that I actually love it. I just gotta figure out my hard point build and I may end up never leaving it.
6:53 I thought "wow, none of those? so which one do i go to after my cobra mk3?" then i get the nice surprise that i'm already in the best choice ship.
@8:00 lol sorry what was that word? Regardless or Irrespective? xD btw cracking video!! I really hope to see the other ships in another video!! Top notch editing as always!! ;D
I realised one quite important thing (at least for me) and thats the fact that you can reuse a lot of modules between the vulture/chieftain and the fdl/mamba, so you dont need to buy or engineer three different size A rate module. You save mats and money :D
I too am interested in a large ship video. I can seriously agree that going straight to the fdl was a pain and I backtracked to the chieftain and love that ship
Not a player, but the Mamba is a sexy ship. Something about it's lines feel very sensual. Pleasing to the eye. The Fer De Lance isn't far behind in looks.
Recently bought a Mamba and I'm in the process of engineering it so it performs better. So far I quite like it..used to have a FAS but wanted somthing different as I'd been in the FAS for quite a while
![Top5 BEST weapons [Elite Dangerous]](/img/n.gif)
Somethings to point out. All ship prices INCLUDE A-Rated modules, not just the ship purchase price. Also, Yes, there are rank requirements for some of the ships. But ranks are very easy to get these days if selecting missions with rank rewards. Even still most of the ships I recommend do not have rank requirements.
You should do a video on how to get federation and imperial rank, if you haven't already.
Another superior class vid from you. Even though I am no longer your target audience, I always enjoy your top quality content. And I absolutely agree with all your recommendations for new CMDRs. Cheers!
Vindicator Jones what are the differences between the chieftain and the Crusader/challenger? is there much difference in combat or is the chieftain just that much better out of the three?
Great video, but I have a question. Did the value of credits go up? I remember the eagle being like 50k or something? I haven't played in a while so Idk.
This is one of the best guides out there for new players...both in terms of content & editing/production quality.
'Needs adding to Alec's 'Best of the Forum' thread, imnsho.
That's how shipyard spec sheets should look :) Great video :D
These stats sheets are amazing, better than in some games honestly. He did an amazing job with this video.
God how much I hate when "2x 1F pulse laser + 2 small hardpoints" and the 1F are on bigger hardpoints. Why don't you put the small lasers on the small hardpoints, then?! How am I supposed to know what kind of hardpoints the ship has?
@@AksenowtCc Yeah, they should list the size of the compartments instead of what's installed in them. When I first started off I slept on a lot of ships because I took that information at face value
Fantastically well put together video. Your content is consistently polished and thoughtful. Dedicated UA-camrs like you are the reason I still play elite
Thanks so much! its that kind of feedback that helps motivate me to keep creating content.
10 out 10 great video
That is awesome. How on earth did you make the interface in the video
this is all well and good, and I am not speaking of my "favorite" ships, but I do believe the Kraits should have been mentioned, as they are superb combat ships. One could say even more so than the Mamba.
Yeah, Krait mk ii , with a fighter, has made combat super easy for me.
I bought the Mamba after I turned in all my exploration data at Colonia few days ago... I think it's one of my fav ships.
Great video! For people who aren't sure, this still holds up as of June 2020 (including the Fleet Carrier update).
Since this video is aimed toward beginners, I'd like to add that selling or trading ALL ship modules returns 100% of the price you paid for them. The only place you lose money on selling or trading toward a new ship is with ships themselves -- you lose 10% of the base value of the ship when you sell or trade it. And I'll emphasize that it's 10% of the BASE cost. VJ's listed price of 3.4 million is after fully A-rating the ship. But if you were to trade it in toward a new ship, the ship's base cost is around 129,000, so you'd only actually be losing about 13,000 credits. Or 1 kill in a HazRES.
But I 100% agree with VJ here: You CANNOT skip the Vulture. If your main activity in ED is combat, you have no better ship to learn in, and the things you learn will apply to literally every other ship in the game.
I just got purchased my Federal Corvette and might need that large ship combat video cause this right here is quality content!
This video was exactly what I needed. Only started playing recently, but I have been grinding a lot of exploration and trade loops. Got about 300 million to spend. Going to take your advice and jump into a Vulture to learn combat properly.
Also the production values on this video were incredible.
I just started playing less than a month ago. Didn't understand the ship differences and/or what to look for next. This had been the best video in helping me understand the combat ships abilities level by level. Thank you so much!!
I love the Mamba for it's cockpit alone. That's what makes me want the Mamba to get a rework from the devs so much. Sadly it's current combat abilities are lacking. That said, I'll either be flying the FDL or Vette depending on if I want a fast nimble ship or a sledge hammer.
Been off the E:D servers for a while, but the Mamba interests me, too. In terms of looks it's definitely a drag racer. As for the weapons load, my gut feeling is to use the two large and the huge hardpoints very conventionally, probably for two large multicannon and a laser - whatever won't suck the cap dry or overheat the ship. Given the poor maneuverability, the two small hardpoints could mount missile launchers to deal with smaller, more nimble ships. Just my two-cents' worth...
Awesome guide for noobs like me. I am learning a lot with your videos
Welcome to the Galaxy o7
The quality of this editing is amazing.
Video is of staggering quality. Everything looks very clean yet informative. The only thing I missed was the maneuverability of each ship where the rest of the information was. Amazing shots in between the informative parts as well. Hat off sir.
All the information I needed, and so much more that I didn't know that I didn't know. Your videos are all one-stop master-classes. You don't just give recommendations, but you say why. First place I come If I wanna know anything. Well done! 20 minute vid with not an ounce of fat on it.
This might be the most well made video I've ever seen. On any topic. Aside from informative and engaging, it was genuinely pleasing to watch. CMDR Jones, your presentation is phenomenal and I thank you for a guide well made.
2 years later, MY GOD, this is a stunning video much appreciated for the lesson
Superbly produced video! Definitely interested in hearing what you have to say about the large ships!
...that they are probably indispensable now, given how completely r3tard3d the new AI is. Still ignores module damage (a bug that was briefly fixed before and the fix WORKED, thank god... but with the new update, the bug came back), it's desperately INSANE about shooting you from 20m and behind (before it seemed the ai did it's best, but it couldn't quite keep up with the player. you could still outflank it just fine even with a heavy ship. after the update tho, may god have mercy on you if you pick a fight with an elite FAS or clipper) and it HAS to do absolutely EVERYTHING it can to meet the damage quota (witch quota is probably at least 100% of your shield dropped per enemy ai encountered. if you don't loose all your shields in 1vs1, then then enemy will go berserk at 5% shield or after it lost them and "remember" all the weapons installed on the ship and use them to their maximum efficiency. that means 20m strafing run attacks, ramming, everything it can to do to damage you, this new ai will do it. regardless of collateral damage, ramming attempts that result in the ai's ship being destroyed in the process... nothing is off the table with this new ai).
To be totally honest, before the update my {Tier 5 A rated highly engineered highly agile shield tanked} corvette had most ai controlled ships, even elite pilots for dinner. But now, i'm in trouble after a single wing of clippers, or asps, or hell even diamondbacks are harder to deal with now. I honestly don't know if the devs thought the previous iteration of combat ai was perhaps underwhelming, or whatever the reason, and tbh i honestly think i don't want to know... but as things are atm... the ai simply looks brain-dead. Insane, cheating, reckless and stupid, but mostly just brain-dead. Not the best impression for a new player to meet upon.
Went straight from an Eagle to Python, worked out well.
I'm Elite in Trade and Exploration but only novice in combat, mainly from defending myself in trading. This video was very helpful and not condescending at all
Its been a long time since I've seen someone's passion in their work show through said work. Great editing
I am getting into combat (my least played playstyle) thanks to these videos. I blew up my first NPC pirate interdictor the other day and I had the biggest smile on my face.
When looking for an upgrade to your medium-sized ship, for example the chieftain, you might also try and give the Krait MkII a go. The three large hardpoints on top are awesome and, if fitted with pulse lasers, can do quite a lot of damage. The ship is even capable of using three large beam lasers. Now, the Krait MkII is not the most maneuverable ship, but engineering her with lvl2 dirty drives (which doesn't take a lot of work) changes that dramatically, she becomes incredibly nimble. With A-rated power plant and power distributer, you get unlimited boost, and even though dirty drives increase heat generation, you can still keep your three large beam lasers, as the Krait runs incredibly cool and doesn't really overheat that much. I was really surprised how much fun the Krait is to fly in combat, in fact, when equipped and flown properly, she can make Anaconda pilots break quite a sweat.
Krait is Great... pun intended, but its more of a multipurpose ship. And although it handles itself nicely in a fight, it didnt make my list, because its combat performance is not as effective as the four I mentioned. But hey, if someone is in the market for a good multipurpose combat ship, the krait mk II gets my nod.
@@VindicatorJones Hm, I'd say that the Krait is able to outperform the Chieftain, it has more firepower, and I destroy FDLs (literally and figuratively) with it. But that's of course also a question of how much the ship suits you. And since you were going for non-engineered builds mostly, I agree. It has to be engineered for it to really shine.
A question: if you give the Mamba dirty drives to up maneuverability, will it be able to handle the heat or is that still an issue?
I now use my Krait Mk II as my mining ship with 3 large efficient beams, one abrasion blaster, and one seismic charge launcher, it's perfect as it's fast and maneuverable enough to make core mining easy, then when I get interdicted with a belly full of void opals I have no problems at all just submitting and blowing the pirate to pieces with ease, even if it's a high ranked pilot in a well armed ship. It's probably not the most effective dedicated bounty hunting ship, but it sure has teeth once it's engineered.
@@raenfox I have grade 5 dirty drag drives on my Mamba and haven't noticed any problems with heat from boosting, though I don't use it a lot currently. I think the weapon loadout is probably the biggest factor to how much of a problem heat is.
I upped from my Vulture (flown for more than 2.5 years) to a Krait Mk II. It's a great multipurpose ship and I even have a separate loadout for kill missions. I had been saving up for a Python but found the Fighter bay (Ship Launched Fighters) to be quite useful! As VJ mentioned, the cockpit view of the Fer de Lance irritates some people and I am one of those.
I have mostly A-rated her (and even with a C-rated power plant, you have enough energy to keep on boosting), and am yet to engineer her, but from what I have studied, she's said to be as nimble as a regular FdL, after engineering.
I bough this game and oh boy I didn't know what I was getting in to, I already destroy myself 5 times, still learning tho
Large ships pls
Awesome Vid!!
I support this request.
@@Ploskkky seconed
Yeah big ships pls :)
I’ve tried the FAS and the Fer de Lance, but surprisingly I found the best combat ship is a Clipper. I really didn’t expect that but its agility is off the charts, even Vultures are easy. I also loved the Chieftain.
Nice work, thanks.
I've got my fair share of Bounty hunting down and worked my way up through a Cobra MK III, Vulture, Python and now I fly an Anaconda. Wish your video was out 2 years ago when I struggled to find a ship after the Cobra, but I 100% agree with the Vulture.
It was at least back then - a total fragile ship. You NEEDED to know how to fly it and especially how to maneuver it to properly stay on target - otherwise you would be toast in seconds. Especially when you took on bigger targets than yourself.
I really, really hope you do a follow up on this video with L-Pad ships because I would love to know:
1) If the Anaconda is in there and
2) What ships in general are listed in there.
Right now I'm flying across the Galaxy in my Anaconda by participating in the Distand Worlds II tour to Beagle Point with complete equipment for 62Ly jumps.
I think I really, really need to roughen up my feathers with Bounty Hunting and my Anaconda or possibly a new ship when I hopefully get back safe and sound from Beagle Point.
Keep up the amazing work - really love it.
Holy crap vindi, you went all out on editing and these sweet ship spec overlays. It's totally badass. Love it
Absolutely loved this guide. I especially enjoyed the Cobra 3 interlude. A great tip to minimise burnout!
Exactly.. there has to be a break in there somewhere, and the cobra just seems to fit in perfectly before the Vulture.
Vindicator Jones I love my Krait mk 2, but might have a look at the fdl. Thanks.
My first bounty hunting ship is a Cobra Mk 3 with two fixed medium beam lasers and two small seeker missile launchers. It's silly but I love it.
Wow, very impressive production value right here. I really enjoyed this guide man, keep it up! Have my like my dude...
Coming back to the game, this watch was ESSENTIAL. Brilliant work, sir.😉✌️
Great vid VJ. Top notch production!
I'm so glad i found this video before upgrading my combat ship, the chieftain is my favorite ship now and i can verify everything you said about it is true. The most fun to fly combat ship imo, so much so that i end up taking those massacre missions without getting bored.
I appreciate that you are comparing these ships in generic "vanilla" builds. I've been playing the game off and on since the days of Beta 2, and decided to dive back into the game recently. The last time I played the game religiously was around the time Engineers were first introduced, but I quit playing the game after that. Every time I look for builds now, everybody has these crazy builds engineered out the rear end, and I have absolutely no idea how to even start climbing the ladder to acquire all of the stuff to get those kinds of builds.
As someone who spent most of the early days in a Viper, then got a Vulture, I think my next upgrade is gonna be the Chieftan. Thanks for the video man.
The editing/production value of this video is amazing.
Great job.
As a new Commander to this game, your video was extremely helpful. Not only that, your content is extremely polished and well put together. Instant sub. Keep up the stonking great content, mate!
Glad I could help!
I watched this excellent video maybe ten times when I first got into the game. Decided to revisit it now 6 months later. Purely IMO, but the Mamba is vastly better than portrayed here and for PVE at least, the Krait MKII belongs among the very best combat ships.
Great video! Your videos have helped me a lot, and this one is great too.
Personally, I've been flying the Mamba for the past month or two, and although I only do PVE, I feel that when engineered correctly, I can go toe to toe with pretty much anything out there. I can sit in front of a conda and punch it until my shields start to fade (usually a lot after the conda is bust), or run away when my shields are down completely. I feel that the Mamba allows a lot of room for error for novices like me, since I can beef up the shields while still maintaining the speed to run. (I'd fly the FDL too, except for the bar across the screen...grrr).
So informative. Thanks a lot! Jumped to a python, and now I’m gonna go back and tear it up with a vulture!
Thanks. Props to the layout of this video. I loved the pop up tabs. Made me feel like i was being briefed into the military by the federation .
Gotta thank you for this video, Vindicator. A friend got the game and I couldn’t remember what ships I used on my path to the Corvette.
Great Video! And Oh how right you were. I'll tell my story. I was starting at Dromi, the beginners Location and stayed there for about two weeks, learning, and it is a great place to learn. Yes it does not have some types of missions, but it has the crucial ones. I started with my sidewinder and made money, after i've reached 500k i did the wrong thing at the time, which was to buy a Cobra MkIII. Dromi is known for the little variety in Upgrades, so a little over 500k is absolutely enough to buy the best parts they have there, and i'll tell you, BOY was i dissapointed. The ship felt like a giant sidewinder without the maneuverability. I was so sad, because i wanted to use it for combat. The truth was, i was not ready for it yet + it was not the ship that worked in combat there. All these Eagles and Vipers gave me the ass whoopin i deserved. Then, after slowly building another 500k, i bought a Viper and i was hooked!!. Much more power, for little less. The perfect first step as you said. Now, another 1,5 weeks later i am learning the ship from day to day, as the learning curve, especially with FA off is hard. Since then i flew all the way to Pikum, to get the cheaper parts and i've upgraded the Ship to the max (No Engineering yet). The most exciting are the Pirate assasinations for over 500k. They pit me against Vultures and even FDL, and i am able to win, but almost always barely and after a few tries. Those fights are so exciting!
The "Vulture days" are a good memory for me. My game plan was always to bounty hunt in the Vulture until I could afford a Fer-de-Lance, and that's exactly what I did. I do remember a brief period where I felt like maybe it wasn't all that much better than the Vulture after all, but for whatever reason I just found I was getting so good in the FDL so quickly. It was a natural fit for sure. And now I'm a master of the Fer-de-Lance taking out Anacondas with power plant hits when they're still above 80% hull 😂
This video is so good. This basically matches my entire ship progression (vulture -> chieftain -> FDL) and I loved how each felt.
I'm very interested in the Mamba though. I want to make a speedy "hit-and-run" barrage build and just run passes at enemy ships.
I remember when I was a new commander and for the longest time used a Asp Explorer for bounty hunting, then I blew up without my rebuy and had to start over again. But this time I decided to go for the Vulture since I liked it's two large hard points, and I couldn't be happier. It's easily my favorite small combat ship in the game.
And that's when you learned the most important lesson of Elite Dangerous: DON'T FLY WITHOUT REBUY.
I remember my first vulture. Loved it so much I bought the wing kit and a skin for it. Looked pretty good too
Watching this right before 2021, upgraded to a Vulture the last day off I had and have had time for ONE mission in it. Already read up on power management, so after accepting a mission I whipped out my guns outside the no fire zone and realized I had to change the load out to separate them so I could even fire them xD ended up being an easy victory though and I'm in love!!
One of the best and most informative videos ive seen to date. Really gave me a good perspective considering ive been wanting to upgrade off the imperial eagle for awhile but havent had an idea to what i should go to next.
I just came back to ED after about a 4+ year break. Took out my FDL and a Cobra killed me....so this video is very very helpful. For now, using my DBS till I get the hang of things again. Great presentation!!!
Almost 500 hours playing elite dangerous and I’m still learning new things in your videos, loved the quality of it too. Looking forward to the next one.
Great video Vindicator, production values and advice both excellent
Nice video mate.
Love the name on the viper😂
You've just convinced me to try the chieftain, as I skipped the alliance ships for fed, and now I'm in a Vette
Fantastically clear and informative. I like how you go the pros and cons of each option but still make a recommendation for each tier, AND include upgraded modules in the prices. For an inexperienced pilot like me, this video is perfect. Insta-subbed.
Thankyou, I really do try and put a lot of thought and effort into my vids. Its why they take longer to create.
Thanks for the research and advice. I was thinking about just going straight to FdL after doing nothing but space truckin' and mining, but I'll get a Vulture and learn the ropes in that one first.
Really well made video, I've been thinking about doing more combat in elite and this is an excellent guide to start me off, I would love to see videos like this on trading, mining, exploring etc.
I might make them.. A few others have suggested the same thing.
@@VindicatorJones I hope you do, this is good info for vets and people who have only just started, thanks again for the quality vid!
Very informative and you have a good voice, easy to listen to. 1 day old Commander here, 1sec old Subscriber.
Love the little eagle. Im only on solo play with challenging enemies for now but ive adopted the playstyle of "Move around them so I dont get shot" 😂
Great video. Fully agree with your suggestions. I remember going from a Vulture to the FdL and hating it. I still have my Vulture just for the fun of it.
Same
Really enjoyed the video; bring on the big ships guide/commentary!! I have a bit less than 400 hours so far in Elite and I would say about 90% of that has just been space trucking. I really just enjoy the slow steady pace of it, as well as the challenge to try and chain missions in the most optimal was possible. I have done a bit of combat and exploration as well, but haven't put a lot of time into either. I did buy and A-rate a Mamba not long ago and just flew around for a bit and immediately fell in love. I learned combat in a Vulture and I really felt at home in the Mamba (i have been using a Python for trucking for the majority of my Elite time). I love the hardpoint options and want to turn it into a A-10 Thunderbolt II (aka Warthog) type bounty brawler, though it was fun to hear what you thought about different loadouts.
Outstanding quality on this video! I really enjoyed the graphics and visual effects.
Incredible advise for both veterans and newbies! Keep up the great work VJ! O7
This is super useful information. Thank you! A bit miffed because I don't think you've given the Cobra its due, but I admit I'm very biased. I'd never given the Vulture a second look, but now it looks like that's probably going to be my next ship.
PLEASE do a similar vid for AX builds! My long term goal is Thargoid hunting, but there's a lot of conflicting information out there and I feel somewhat in the dark.
Like you, I never bothered with the Vulture; two large hardpoints just seemed underwhelming. Decided to give it a go yesterday, A-Rated everything on it and ran two C3 burst lasers. The thing is a true beast mate; I've been sticking to the tail of Eagles AND popping Anacondas and I'm a mediocre pilot. Give the Vulture a fair try, it's a surprisingly fun ship.
Awesome breakdown man thanks for all the tips and information. I think I’m gonna explore for cash and buy a chieftain and try out combat. It’s something I’ve never really delved into
Great video! My boys and I are newish pilots and this is just the thing we are needing. helps soooo much, thank you!
Great video, man that editing must have taken a while! I agree the FDL is an advanced ship and takes lots of patience/practice. Fixed weapons anyone?! Miss more than i hit! Thanks for sharring! Hard work my friend.
still not nearly as bad as warthunder difficulty. Boom N Zoom tactics suck bc it is hard to hit a small targets at such extreme speeds.
I really like your attention to detail and how well you were able to explain the progression on combate oriented ships.
Ive been searching for this specific information for days, you're the only person so far thats covered the topic of ship progression from noob to mid to late game. I have about 140 hours into the game, and i am still lost. I've been running an asp explorer and ive got about 23 million credits from bounty hunting. I've started the engineering process, but it's a little difficult to tussle with atm. But i was wondering if you had an undated video covering this same topic. Are things still the same in your opinion? Is there a community i could join that might not mind helping a noob nobody like me? Love the video this was excellent and gave me some much needed insight.
Amazing stat sheets, some games don't even have shipyard specs look that good honestly. Great job.
Brilliant, +Vindicator Jones -- not long before you made this video, I actually asked this very Question over on Facebook . . .
Great timing. Thank you.. ;)
I called my FDL the SRK-23 "Pandora". She has the same look than the one shown in your video, but in blue.
I loved my FL but as soon as I unlocked and purchased a cutter I cant go back and it's not because of the tanky sheilds it's because of the clean look I dont get the same feel in the FL anymore
9:26 I love that glass reflection
The Chieftain was the first ship I used that made me really like plasma accelerators. The two large hardpoints being both on the center line and both on top of the ship makes it very easy to use fixed hardpoint weapons in that slot - and a pair of large plasmas deliver a punch that nothing can ignore.
Unmatched content and video quality... simply on point like always! Been following VJ for years for that reason. Also I couldn't agree more with his recommendations! Fantastic summary! I am very keen to see the evolution of the mamba, I think next to sniping its intent is to use its fast speed to circle around enemies in FA off. I saw some good examples by CMDR Echo3 and would be interested what you think about it.
I have been playing with a sniper build, but honestly, its not my greatest strength. I am an up and close brawler.. Although admittedly, I have been having some success brawling in the mamba using a fully engineered build.. And I have to say, I like it.
Wow I forget now what I sold when I bought my Chieftain. I really like that ship. You could stuff it with a goodly amount of cargo but still refit to make a very dangerous ship. I sold it for a Python and started running a lot of cargo in that and also mining. Made a ton of money mining and bought an FDL. I do remember thinking I made a big mistake with the FDL. My first outings in combat were lackluster. Shields were ok but took forever to recharge after each fight.
Then I started packing shield boosters and engineering drives, boosters, shields, and weapons. Dirty drives make all the difference keeping that bottom hardpoint on task. With the engineered shield boosters, switching to Bi-Weaves and engineering that for better resistances, few things get beyond my first ring. By the time they come around for a second pass, they have recharged quite a bit.
The only huge drawback is the annoyingly short jump range. GETTING the FDL to a battle requires packing a lunch. Full FSD engineering gets me up around 20ly since "lightness" is not an option. For my travelling to engineers, I swap in a 4A scoop so my peanut sized fuel tank is refilled before I make it around a star. For normal work it is a 2A and I just have to eat the time between jumps sipping stargas slowly and watching heat. Even with in-system combat you have to watch your fuel because it drops fast.
I jumped into the Fer-De-Lance as my first dedicated bounty hunting ship and enjoyed it very much--but not as much as the Chieftain, which I fly now. Great video. Highly recommend the Cobra Mk III, the ASP Explorer and the Chieftain.
Brilliant advice as usual, Viper mk3 is still my favourite bounty hunting ship
Great video quality sir. Ive been playing the game and watching your stuff for a long time. Your recent videos look better than ever, keep it up!
The Mamba's speed adjustment is insane from what I've found, it's so light and I loved that aspect of it... Going back to the Fer-de-Lance, I'm still a shit combat pilot but I'm realising it's the ship for me.
Your videos are VERY good btw, just cut down on the "and that's ok" and I won't die trying to kill you because of it, if I ever see you in the vastness of space. 😉
o7 Great video CMDR. I have started over multiple times to come up with a good starting point and path to follow. You have really hit the nail on the head with this video. Thank you.
This was a fantastic and well informed video, thank you. It does't hurt that all your choices line up with my own so some validation is nice :P
Thanks for the video - really informative! Jumped from Vulture to Alliance Chieftain. I guess was too nube to pilot Vulture effectively. Thinking to return to it after working on engineering some more.
Seriously well done mr jones
The background music
The detailed explanation
The care put into everything is overwhelming
So thank you so much you're a prime example of how elite content creators should be like but leaving my biased opinion aside
What's the background ambient track name if you please?
Oh and the big three? I'd love to hear more from your point of view about them
Background ambient track name found.
Man the production on this video is great! Kudos!
I actually do fly a Mamba for combat! I do place a big emphasis on looks and cockpit layout, though, so take that for what it's worth.
Even so, I haven't found an Elite combat mission I couldn't easily manage basically kitting it out like a shield-tank FDL. Quite likely any fully engineered medium ship is probably going to do that, really... so, y'know.. might as well do them while you're looking and sounding good. :D
Very useful video, I would love to see the same done for the larger ships too
I remember when you used to rock a Vindicator in 'mechs, man!
Also, thanks for the guide.
I most certainly did! Boy did I cop a lot of flak from my Clan when that mech was released, especially when the prime vindicator mech had jones written on the side.
I went Sidewinder -> Cobra Mk3 -> Krait Mk2 -> FDL
The Krait is a solid combat ship and the multi-purpose aspect, made it great for making money.
Your vids are always good but this one is incredible!!! I would love to see more comparison vids like this. Huge o7!!!
Congratulations, VJ, this is far the best guide to date for Elite combat ships! VJ 4 PREZIDENT!
My first Not-Sidewinder was the Cobra Mk 3
I found this to be the most helpful video on the subject, thank you!
My fav is the fas. With the black Friday paint it looks like a shark from the top.
I loved the FAS, but lately I've really been getting in to the mamba, I don't know why. I guess It's the way you feel when you take down someone in it, more fulfilling in a way.
I jumped into the FDL pretty early and loved it, but it definitely takes a considerable amount of time to grow accustomed to. I have a pretty cavalier way of flying so personally I loved the drifty flying and necessary FAO maneuvers
Very well made video. Great production value.
Awesome work, posting it directly in our discord! There is only one way to learn combat, the Vulture Way
Sooo fun fact: I found this video after purchasing I'd just gotten my Chieftain. Before that I had a Vulture. Apparently I had a pretty good idea, and I'm glad to see someone who actually knows how to fly (or use a HOTAS?) Recommend the same ships I've chosen for progression.
Or at least for combat progression...just ignore my DBX and Type-7.
Just starting to get the hang of my Viper 3 and can enter a conflict zone, take on some Cobras and even a Python, and make it out alive. I hated it at first, but I've found that I actually love it. I just gotta figure out my hard point build and I may end up never leaving it.
6:53 I thought "wow, none of those? so which one do i go to after my cobra mk3?"
then i get the nice surprise that i'm already in the best choice ship.
you could get the Vulture. It is very easy to make money in a cobra, because you can do almost anything.
I'm in a keelback now, but I'll never sell my Cobra
@8:00 lol sorry what was that word? Regardless or Irrespective? xD
btw cracking video!! I really hope to see the other ships in another video!! Top notch editing as always!! ;D
I realised one quite important thing (at least for me) and thats the fact that you can reuse a lot of modules between the vulture/chieftain and the fdl/mamba, so you dont need to buy or engineer three different size A rate module. You save mats and money :D
I too am interested in a large ship video. I can seriously agree that going straight to the fdl was a pain and I backtracked to the chieftain and love that ship
Not a player, but the Mamba is a sexy ship. Something about it's lines feel very sensual. Pleasing to the eye. The Fer De Lance isn't far behind in looks.
Recently bought a Mamba and I'm in the process of engineering it so it performs better. So far I quite like it..used to have a FAS but wanted somthing different as I'd been in the FAS for quite a while
Absolutely splendid and well-designed vid. Would love to see more in this style for large ships and other topics such as hauling/trading or mining!