And How to Avoid Them
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- Опубліковано 23 тра 2024
- Vinyl records are fun, but upgrading equipment often isn't. What should someone focus on, and in what order?
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Interesting, thx for sharing 👍
Great advice. Thanks Rick.
Thanks Shane!
I agree with what you said. One other point is making sure all your components work together in harmony. The amp and speakers need to be a good match. If your source components are strong but the amp and speakers are mismatched, it still won't sound good. Back in the day, it was easier to walk into a hi-fi store and match things up. Today, you have to rely on reviews quite a bit to get an idea of how things will sound together. Or, if you're lucky like me, you get to talk to the owners of the speaker manufacturer and the amp manufacturer, and they can help you match things up.
I agree with you completely. I sold hi quality audio from the mid 80’s to the late 90’s and if you put together a complimentary set of affordable gear, you could get some amazing quality music out of it. Spending more money never guarantees better sound.
Great insight, Neil! I do miss the abundance of hifi shops that used to be around. Where I live there are only 3 that can be considered experts and they are all at least 50 minutes away from me.
Great advice! I agree with you 100% I adore tubes!
Tubes are my heart and soul when it comes to music
Very helpful video. I'm in the process of making mistakes, so it's nice to be reminded to take a beat and a breath before any more expensive decisions. Thank you!
Welcome, David! I'm sure my mistake making days aren't over, but I try 🍺
I’m spinning my vinyl today with my Yamaha PF-800 turntable with a Denon Dl-160 cartridge. Phono stage is everything!
It really is! I have some cool videos lined up that will focus on some phono stage options.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords it’s kinda funny how the rabbit hole is so true. I’ve been studying this for almost 40 years and finally have the dream room. But me, I’ll pick apart an lp pressing a lot. The main thing is to enjoy the music 👍🎶
great list! People often go overboard on speakers or amps and fail to realize the benefits.
That's most definitely true, Gabor!
My system is my den in a basemant and boy can I blast it. 25 year old Rotel amp, 2 sets of speakers,40 year old Mission 700’s, a bass bin and tweeters from Bose 30 years old. A Audio technica 120 with a Ortofon concord cartridge. Super happy and it’s can be cranked up without and loss in quality. No new digital bull shit. Analog and won’t upgrade anything till it all dies. I also get the system serviced about every 3-4 years.
Now THAT sounds cool, Stan. What do you have done when it's serviced?
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords I get my Rotel amp serviced, they make sure the knobs and connectors are not rusty and sometimes small transistors replaced. I’ve had a problem with scratchy sound when turning the knob to a different source, so that got sorted. A speaker needed to be fixed as a cone got squashed and an old technics I used to use was serviced and a few parts replaced due to wear n tear. Folks can’t expect all equipment to last if u don’t get it serviced by a professional company. I have here in South Africa a guy that looks after all my kit now. In the UK, when I lived there and dj’d you had to get things sorted in order to keep things in 100% working order. If folks look after their prised expensive gear then no need to keep upgrading or replacing. (I wish I could post a pic of my den… it’s paradise and friends love to grab a drink and sit and listen)
@@DJStanSteel Would love to see that! If you ever want to share you can reach me through the website Joyofvinyl.com
Top upgrade for my system was new speakers. I sold my car to get em but 😊 no regrets. Took awhile to get them to the sweet spot but now it's bliss. Good advice as always 🎉. FIFO. Greg
😂 I should consider selling my truck 🛻
Good advice. I really like your audio equipment rack. Can you disclose where you purchased it?
Hi Michael! Yes - that's the Pangea Vulcan audio rack. I really like the look of it too
The turntables I use are all 'vintage' models. Technics SL-7, Sony PS-X600 and an....Akai AP-306C...I'm a bit ashamed to mention the last one, but when it comes to build and sound quality I was completely surprised by it. All three of them make me enjoy my vinyl-hobby 😉
It's funny how turntables can surprise us. My main TT is a Thorens TD160 Super, but I'm reviewing a turntable for half the cost that sounds almost just as good.
I'm glad that you consider the cartridge first. I've got an AT 95ML. Splendid stylus. (I have another.) As I am looking 70 straight in the eyes, I'll don't think I'm going to change it. Have a good week.
You too Stanley! Not sure when your birthday is, but happy birthday just the same! 🍺
I enjoyed my cute headphone amp so much that I bought a tube-based power amp for my living room A/V system. It's a Primaluna and doesn't add much "lush" 2nd harmonic distortion, being a modern design. It's the same power rating as my Cambridge Audio receiver and I left the original cables on the floor after swapping the new amplifier in to drive the L and R speakers. I was halfway through a movie ("The Core") & thought I'd shut it all down & swap the old cables back so the Cambridge receiver was driving the speakers again to listen for any differences. The soundstage got a whole lot smaller, which I didn't expect at all!
Hi Pat! I've had similar things happen with phono-stages - even those I would consider of equal value and quality.
They aren't mistakes they are investments in experience (at least that is what I tell myself)
I like that way of looking at it! 🍺
Of course the biggest mistake could be spending all that money on vinyl playing equip.and vinyl. People who think they hear something more emotionally involving with vinyl probably do. But probably they have never heard cd playback that is free of glare, electronic signature, and players that have enough warmth.etc. Those are things that are wrong with the sound, and hearing those things keeps you from fully connecting with the music, emotionally. It isn't that vinyl has some magical quality; it's just that cds played back on anything less than great, has too many abberations to fully engage you. HOWEVER there is cd playback equipment that does not have any significant abberations like glare, hardness, edginess etc. that will give you an emotional connection just like vinyl. In fact it sounds just like vinyl, MINUS the noise. So it's not about "magic", it's about Down To Earth. There is absolutely nothing wrong with cd playback at anywhere near its best. So it evokes emotion just as good as vinyl playback does. Even Melinda Murphy, who is still learning, on her channel, said that a high quality streamer she fairly recently featured, sounded more open and spacious than her lps, except for some audiophile titles; and streaming does not sound as good as cd. She plays lps with an improved version of the Rega Apheta moving coil phono cartridge which has a list price of over $3,600. A great cartridge but the streamer sounded more 3D and open in her words.
It takes a really well mastered and special lp to sound anywhere near as pure and clean sounding as your run of the mill regular cd pressing. Played back on cd playback equipment that doesn't have flaws which interfere with your emotional connection. I used to think analog is superior people were the smart ones; until I heard for myself, with my own ears
@@sidesup8286 In my system the order of Sound quality goes( top to bottom) SACD, DAT. Records( read expansion that follows), Reel to reel, DCC,CD, Cassettes, streamer( I really think its the model of streamer I have I have)
Expansion:
With records CDs and cassettes the sound quality is really dependent on the recording and production techniques involved in producing the media. Some of my cassette tapes sound heaps better than some of my CDs. With records, through bad experience, i find modern issues to be inferior to past issues( of the same record).
speaker placement/room treatment ( I use books on shelves, stuffed furniture not unfriendly looking panels) would be a start to make sure it is right.
Very true. I could a series of videos about that alone. My wife redesigned our listening to help me optimize acoustics and there's still things that can be done to improve it.
Pro-ject VC-E2 to Record Doctor X!
So Rick, now that you have had time to use the RDX, is it better the VC-E2? Followup video? I know you like the cleaning volume time savings. I purchased and have been using my VC-E2 for a few weeks and love it. Still struggling with trying to determining which is better, Tergikleen clean and distilled rinse versus Groovewasher G3 and Groovewasher GSR. Also trying another mix of 75% distilled with 25% ISO and a small amount of gentle detergent. So far Tergikleen with a thorough clean/rinse is winning. The cleaning process and amount of fluid and closeness to the runout takes practice.
Retired and visiting record stores for vintage vinyl in near mint condition. Enjoying the time flipping through albums and bringing them home for a clean (cover, insert and vinyl and outer and inner sleeve, which is a topic I would like you to cover sometime).
Can you add to the experience? Drop the needle Brother!!!
Love watching every episode of The Joy of Vinyl Records! Keep up the passion and good work! I'm with you!
Ron
Hi Ron!
I most definitely enjoy the RDX over the VCE2. The time savings is one thing, but the vacuum power on the RDX is better. I don't know if everyone's experience with the VCE2 is the same, but I have to run it for awhile to remove all the residue. The RDX takes care of it with only a couple rotations. Then I do the Spin-Clean distilled water bath and one last time on the RDX.
I have adjusted the ingredients of my cleaning fluid yet again. After another deep research dive I am no longer averse to ISO and also use a 25% mix with an Ilfotol as a wetting agent. I'm happy to share the research and what I'm doing if you want to email me through the website. I still recommend Tergikleen for folks who just want to add a few drop to distilled water.
Happy yo cover the other topics as well! You'd think at some point I would have nothing left to say but it's a constant journey (as you well know)!
The best upgrade I made was to add a power amplifier
pro-Ject DS3B or DS3B tube phono pre, all powered by the linear RS2 phono power
Absolutely agree! Some nuance though: you need a good enough turntable to keep that cartridge steady. Then upgrade your cartridge.
Now why did you not mention the U-Turn? Their custom is amazing. That arm is great. THEN you can upgrade your cartridge.
I have a high end TT, 6cm platter, 12" arms. The lowly $10 AT3600 spherical sounds great in it. You can upgrade it by simply popping on a better needle, elliptical or better, still better than a 2M red at half the price.
I also tried an MC on a cheaper s-shaped arm with headshell and an ok phonostage. It works ok, but you miss so much of the refinement of a good arm. Now i finally have several arms to test with, i noticed it does make a HUGE difference.
Thats why i recommend; get that U-turn with thd magnesium arm. Never heard it but from the construction; it must wipe out any other at that price level.
Hey there! I could easily have mentioned U-Turn. I actually have one of their early custom orbits that I used to use in my main listening room, and they recently sent me their new model to review and it sounds great. I am a fan of U-Turn and their customer service. One of the first phono stages I bought a few years ago was their Pluto2. I had to contact customer service about a slight buzz and they were amazing. Best service I've ever received.
When it comes to speakers if your room isn't suited to them it's a waste of time. I think Magnepan makes some of the best for detail and sound staging, but only if set up correctly. My old MG-1.5/QR speakers still work okay but now I don't have a dedicated room for them, and putting them in my small living room where they have to be butted up to the baseboard just won't work, as you need at least three feet from the wall. But my Zu Audio DW6 speakers are just fine in this situation, although it would be nice to be able to move them out and around to experiment. I will say that going from solid state to a tube amp makes a noticeable improvement in my mind.
I’m with on the SS to tube. Big difference! My listening room will never be big enough for the Maggie’s but I’d love to hear them.
There is no set formula. It all depends on what products are available, which overachieve and at what price. Some of these guys come up with money percentages and what % to spend on each item, but that ignores what is out there. If an overachieving $400/pr.speaker is the best speaker under a thousand, and you have a thousand to spend, then 55% on speakers is not the thing to do.Then, 40% is the thing to do... % formulas don't take into account what's available.
Your turntable and especially your tonearm and what's underneath your turntable could be more important than cartridge; assuming you know of good cheap ones like the AT 95. I'd rather hear an AT 95 with a real good tonearm, an "ok" turntable and something great underneath the turntable than a cartridge 4 times its price on a not so great turntable and not so great isolation underneath. Cables are a very important thing too. On my system cd playback now exhibits a degree of subtlety and nuance that I thought I'd only get from reel tapes and the better examples of lps. But then again, I've never lived with 4 to 5 thousand dollar cartridges.
True - and I did stress that there are always exceptions. A bad turntable will sound bad no matter what cartridge it uses. I get alot of questions and emails that boil down to wondering what to spend money on next. There's no easy rule but they usually fall into the path I mentioned.
I almost (stress on "almost") mentioned interconnects and cables but I need to educate myself more on them before I do that.
Yes, I wasn't thinking what you were saying was necessarily wrong or anything, as everything is subjective. That's just my preference Certainly putting more money in the cartridge with a better stylus shape like a micro ridge stylus, would result in better sound on the inner grooves. A cheap turntable but with a good tonearm can sound good in passages where there is not much vibratory bass going on. There have been people who experimented with putting really cheap Grado and Audio Technica cartridges in real expensive tonearms like the SME V tonearm. The result was that the cheap cartridges sounded way way better than you would believe they could. The same with many cheap speakers. When hooked up to really classy electronics; it's mind boggling how good some of those can sound. I wouldn't put the lions share of my money on speakers either.
Back in the early 1980s the Dynavector Ruby moving coil cartridge was quite the sensation. It cost the equivelent of around $600 to $700 today.. I told the guy I wanted to upgrade my cartridge to a Dynavector Ruby. Back then I had a Dual 506 turntable. He told me "I wouldn't put a Ruby on that " The tonearm wasn't near good enough and the turntable itself had a less than stellar suspension. A year later my Thorens TD 160 Super turntable, with a Grace 707 tonearm was the biggest sonic improvement of any upgrade I ever made (at the time).
The standard Denon 103 moving coil cartridge with its conical stylus is probably the cartridge with the biggest cult following of all time. The model is still in the Denon line since the late 1960s!! Radio stations galore used to use it, back in the day when vinyl was it. Some people think it had too much upper midrange. My radio stations of choice probably used one, as I remember when I would buy an lp, the midrange on my system always sounded like it was tamer and suppressed compared to hearing the same songs on the FM tuner. The bass was always tighter though and there was more transparency, dynamics and transient precision with my lps. The Denon 103 is still one of the better cartridge choices today. Although today there are variants of it that you can buy with something better than a conical stylus. It is said that conical styluses sound better when playing mono records. They deserve their own mono cartridge, but the whole thing can get quite expensive. World class digital playback equipment is the obvious simple solution to all this for me. Still prize my los also though.
I agree with all you say
Cheers, Gordon!
Mine wasn’t speakers, it was the cartridge that I bought for my turntable: the AT-VM95C/H…apparently, it’s incompatible with the Numark TTUSB, but sounds great with Mono records.
I've made more than my fair share aside from the speakers as well! It's a constant learning journey.
IMO, the phono stage is part of the source.
Because only *after* the RIAA EQ, the signal is actual music, before it, it's just the "raw data" from the record.
A bit like a CD transport vs CD player, where the CD player also incorporates the DAC to create an actual music signal.
When it all comes down to it - I agree. You really have nothing without a decent phono stage.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords Yeah, I've upgraded from a Cambridge Audio 651P to an SPL Phonos some years ago and it made big difference!
The cartridge loading settings on this phono preamp also help to get the best out of every cartridge you pair it with!
I highly recommend a good phono preamp with the right range of loading options!
Speakers are always the most important upgrade. But synergy is key and the hardest thing to adjust.
In the end, I do believe it's all about synergy, Ilian, as you say.
neat touch with making the thumbnail the first part of the title and the actual title the second half .. don’t think i’ve seen anyone do that
It's a constant learning process!
The great thing about UA-cam is different people can express different opinions. Over here in the UK we would put the turntable first, then arm then cartridge as the most important parts. Speakers would always be last as it’s logical they can only reproduce what they are fed. Garbage in garbage out is the old saying.
Cheers, Tony!
Great video Rick and I agree with pretty much all you say here. The only potential for disagreement is that some would argue that the turntable should come before the cartridge: this would only apply if you have an endlessly upgradeable turntable like the LP12 (as I have to my cost!).
However a few years ago I upgraded to my first MC coil cartridge (Dynavector 20x2) and my first freestanding phono stage (Dynavector P75 Mk 4) and this remains the biggest upgrade I have ever made. Really supports your theory I think.
Also delighted to hear your Rega pronunciation - shows that you colonials can still learn!!
Some of us colonials aren't a total lost cause 😂😂😂
Hearing you mention your experience with the MC is really making me want to go that route either later this year or next.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords
I can't recommend this route too highly and you've made the case so well yourself!
I can also recommend the DV with the synergy between the 2 components although you will have a lot of exciting auditioning to do.
This can be an issue with cartridges as the dealer cannot quickly switch between components (not just a case of plugging in a different amp or speakers). this makes an A/B comparison more difficult and I ended up taking my dealer's advice - by now he knows my system as well as I do.
This year I upgraded again to the DVXX-2 which is another step forward.
Good luck and happy hunting!
1/Αmplifier[a/watt/channel is at least 80w, b/it has 4 speaker outlets, c/it has push buttons for the diff machines[the round ones are a nuisance and don't stay on the contact 2/Speakers[tall stand on floor ones][make sure the speakers can handle the output on the amplifier, 3/Pick up [upgrade the outlets to thicker cables] 4/ cartridge [choose one that fits your kinda music and what you'd like to hear].5/ add a tape deck [single or dble tape] 6/if you think that a equalizer would be useful add it .add it at later stage...
Great additions, Roger - thanks!
What about the new dual turntables? I don’t see them talked about much?
Hi Paul - I've actually reached out to them. Hoping to hear back at some point.
Good morning Rick. Upgrades, upgrades, upgrades!!! LOL I just ordered the Pro-Ject Tubebox S2 as an upgrade to the Schiit Mani 2. I like the Mani but looking for a warmer sound and something else to tinker with. In your experience, have you played with the Mani 2? I know you have played with the Pro-Ject Tubebox and upgraded to the Tavish. What are your thoughts on the Tubebox S2 as an upgrade over the Mani 2? Also, why did you move away from the Tubebox? Spin on! Thanks, Ron.
Good Morning Ron!
I still recommend the Tubebox S2 and continue to use it in the review room (you'll see this mentioned on the video coming out this Friday coincidentally!). I haven't tried the Mani 2 but from what I know of it you will be pleased with the Tubebox over the Mani 2. The only Schiit product I've used in the past was the Freya preamp.
The only reason I moved to the Tavish was for the all-tube signal path. Definitely not because of any dissatisfaction with the Tubebox S2.
Spoiler. I may be moving from the Tavish as my main phono-stage soon...
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords Thanks for the quick response Rick. I understand your purist thinking with the all tube signal path. Do you notice any audio quality differences between the two (Tavish vs Tubebox S2). My main reason from moving away from the Mani Is mid range clarity and treble harshness. I have played with gain and impedance with my moving magnet cartridge on the Mani but just don’t get the warmth and clarity using a pure digital stage. I’ll update you with my thoughts this week when the Pro-Ject Tubebox S2 comes in.
@@RonGrift I did notice a difference with the Tavish. If you still experience any treble harshness with the Tubebox S2, rolling the tubes may help. I don't recall what the stock tubes were but I replaced them with a set of NOS Mullards. You don;t have to go that expensive - even new production Mullard or Gold Lion will help tame treble (should you hear any)
SO true.. I remember talking to the CEO of a very large German TT company and he says cartridge has the most impact in a TT's sound then the phono stage..... However, overall, I am of the school that output is most important and work my way backwards.. ie. Speakers then amps.. Cables matter but the ROI is awful.
I really considered including cables in this video but my knowledge isn't quite there yet so I can't even begin to offer advice. That being said - which cables are you using?
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords I don't use anything fancy.... I refuse to pay more than $30 or so per interconnect, mostly from Amazon. The margins on these multi hundred / multi thousand dollar cables are like JEWELRY (500% profit) hence its financial ROI is atrocious. Rather spend the $$$ on what I believe matters more... (cartridge, speakers, amps)
So with that said what make’s vinyl sound good?
Hey there! I've done a bunch of videos on that but it all boils down to preference. If it's vinyl, it will sound it's best when taken care of, cleaned, and played on a decent turntable. Decent doesn't have to be expensive. Cheers! 🍺🍺🍺
@4:11 "...focus on the cartridge. That's going to give you the best bang for your buck."
Related to your cartridge, is professionally dialing it in.
There are several vectors that are critical for allowing your stylus to rub exactly where it should be rubbing, in the record's groove (and preventing the stylus from rubbing where it should not be rubbing).
I cannot emphasize enough the improvement in sound quality you will get, after you dial everything in with precision.
The problem is that doing so takes a certain set of skills, and patients. Although I have my cartridge professionally dialed in, I was fortunate enough to know someone with those skills, and with the proper tools. I wish I could do it myself, because I only know that one person.
The before and after sound quality change was remarkable.
A $250 cartridge, professionally dialed in, might sound better than a $1,000 cartridge that is misaligned in one or more ways. And it is super easy to have any number of alignment vectors be wrong. Even the slightest misalignment will be audible.
Here are the settings that, when dialed in with precision, will bring joy to your ears, and will really let you hear how your cartridge sounds:
-- the effective length of the tone-arm
-- the cartridge's weight
-- the vertical tracking alignment / rake angle
-- the anti-skating
-- the overhang
-- the offset
-- the zenith angle
-- the cartridge's azimuth.
If you did not dial all of them in, then you are sacrificing sound quality -- and it is cumulative.
Good Morning!
You'll be interested in the next video (and hopefully some that will follow as I continue on this path). I've been using a couple WallyTools and learned more by using them that I did with all of the other tools I've used. I've always been good at setting all the parameters, but it's even easier and better with the proper toolset and knowledge. I've accounted for everything you've mentioned above with the exception of zenith and azimuth which I have yet to find a good way to measure with what I currently have. VTA is huge when it comes to reducing sibilance or, on the other end, muddiness.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords Yeah... the azimuth is a tuff-y.
I believe that you need a special pressing, designed to help you set the azimuth (that record is a tool of sorts).
Next, I believe that you need an oscilloscope. But I am going by faded memories.
It might be as simple as playing tracks that have a tone (perhaps a frequency sweep?) for only one speaker, and you making sure that you hear zero out of the speaker that should be silent. I guess that you would turn the balance 100% to the speaker that should be silent on that track, and make sure that you hear nothing. Again, I do not remember.
The next time I visit my local high-end store (which might not be until November), I will ask their turntable guru (he set up my turntable). But you will probably be equal to his knowledge and skills by then.
WallyTools. There ya go!
I hope that your efforts have paid off with better sound quality. Your better sounding pressings will probably show the most improvement.
@@NoEgg4u If you do get to ask your turntable guy let me know. I'm all ears!
From AT VM 95 Shibata to Ortofon MC Quintet Black S
Great progression there. 🍺
Improving the soundstage does’t cost anything. The key is to experiment with speaker placement in your room.
That's true, Marc. I've driven myself crazy moving my speakers an inch forward, toe-in, toe-out, etc. until I hot the spot I liked. My wife thought I was going nuts. I was up out of the chair every couple minutes making adjustments. Now that I'm happy I don't dare touch them.
My speakers are about 11 feet apart and about 9 feet away. My soundstage is very wide and detailed. I thought it was just me looking for the ultimate sweetspot and am glad I'm not alone. Setting up my room took a couple of days of experimenting. Basically, one end of a double wide with hardwood floors. Amp, TT, CD & streaming on an analog hybrid amp with speakers from the same manufacturer. They (really) seem to compliment each other. I've found there isn't just one way to set things up. Great info BTW. 😊
@@jaycoleman8062 Thanks Jay!
Don’t ever sell those Model 5s. Upgrade the capacitors. I sold my pair and I miss them dearly. I agree the cart and phono stage are extremely important to get right. I think that’s the tricky part of this analog system. Careful with Low Output MC. Entry level phono stages should be avoided if you have the funds for a $1500 + go for it. I am really enjoying my modwright PH9 with tube rectifier (cryotone 5U4G) it’s really quiet background and I can listen more of the music and voice. Really great.
Did you ever upgrade the capacitors in your Model 5s before letting them go?
The Modwright is a great unit!
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords yes I had them for a few months. I sold them to my best friend…i couldn’t say “get your own” 🤣…instead of getting the same pair I got JBL L100 Classics. JbL are more neutral but lack the fun of the KLH.
My advice would be: stop upgrading and just enjoy your music. I haven’t changed my audio setup in approx 15 years, have only changed the stylus once during that period, all works like a charm and i’m as happy as when i bought the audio components!
Can't argue with that advice 🍺
Avoiding the upgrade to CD is the biggest mistake!! 😆
😂😂😂 That's a mistake I'll have to live with, David
What really ruins my listening experience is keeping the volume down to not bother neighbors and going to bed early so I can get up and go to work. And see all these people at home during the day goofing off and clogging up traffic in their Jeeps with the stupid ducks on the dash. That is what can really ruin a good listening experience.
I lived in a cabin in the woods alone for about a year and it was the only time in my life where I didn’t have to worry about the volume of my music. It was so great.
😂😂😂 Yep - I would say that would do it
Marshall speaker
Every times I hear "Marshall" mentioned I think of my old Marshall guitar amp 😂