Is The Indie Game Dev Dream Real? - The Full Truth
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- Опубліковано 25 тра 2024
- Is the indie game dev dream real or is it an unattainable lie nobody can realistically achieve? How hard is it to make indie games full time and make enough money to survive? I interviewed Thomas Brush, the creator of Neversong and Pinstripe, to find out more.
● Check out Thomas online course "Full Time Game Dev" using the code JONASISTHECOOLEST: full-time-game-dev.teachable....
(This is not an affiliate link or a paid sponsorship. I basically traded the course shout-out against this interview opportunity.)
● Wishlist my upcoming game Will You Snail on Steam: store.steampowered.com/app/11...
0:00 - Intro
1:12 - Survivorship Bias | Thomas Story
4:38 - Selling The Game Dev Dream
7:34 - Being Vulnerable (Kickstarter)
9:14 - Social Media & Marketing
14:20 - What Game Dev Is Really Like
16:35 - Financial Security & Growth
21:08 - Taking Shortcuts (Reusing Code)
24:46 - Dealing With The Risk of Failure
31:18 - Prioritization & Time Management
32:35 - The Role of Luck
36:11 - How To Make The Dream a Reality
39:52 - Diversifying Income Streams
42:30 - Some Motivational Words
● Check out Thomas Brush on UA-cam: / thomasmbrush
● Join the Will You Snail Discord: / discord
● Join our creative game dev community on Discord: / discord
Hope you enjoy. :)
#gamedev #indiedev
The indie game dev dream is real.
Most people forget that the struggle is even more real
i see this pig at discord, twitter and now on jonas's comments
The struggle is why most people stop doing game dev as well... also hello piggy :D
Existence is pain
mr 3d-ish guy why are you every where i remember your weird 3d-ish game on reddit
This deserves pin
The problem in indie dev is not to make a game that people will like, but find people that will like your game
Very true. I'm trying to build an audience on UA-cam and get constant feedback about my game as I develop it
too true
And not making a shity game of course.
then you are the true artist ?
Yeah, I know that indie games can have a hard time appealing to the masses. Especially when people are only looking at the triple a publisher's.
“Start living your life like it’s a RPG”
Time to clip into the void
lmao
@@commandblock123 BEGONE BOT (i reported him)
@@JohnJohnson-od6dd more like a kid
@@Gebes I don't think he's a kid, cuz i don't think they would just comment on a random comment on an english video in german.
I try but there aren't enough random chests filled with gold on the streets 🤣
The dream is real, but rushing to achieve it will destroy it entirely.
Agree
surprised to see you here dor :D
@PainiteOfficial oh hello! It's nice to see you here :D I hope you're doing well!
No, the dream "can be real" not that "it is real". Most indie's literally don't make any $$$.
@@TheMeanArena Who says dreams don't come true...
I think what I meant by this comment was that the potential to achieve it generally exists, because it's known to happen
Indie game is mostly hard because you need to attract public and you need a lot of patience to finish your game
It's a marathon not a sprint ;D
The biggest issue for me is that you have to do too many things at once. You heard Thomas talk about x revenue streams he needs to even make a living. For that reason, I have indie game dev only as a side hustle and the income streams from it are just a bonus, not something I need to feed my family with.
@@Shadefrank
I think this is the biggest thing. 100% agree.
It can be treated as a job, especially to keep yourself committed enough to actually finishing the project. But it absolutely should not be relied on as the main source of income, unless the project already takes off.
yep
@@Shadefrank I agree! Part time dev can also be a struggle though with not as much time to dedicate :(
This is the collab I’ve never asked for but definitely needed, awesome!
I feel that a really important factor in this is having a stable income while also having the time to work on games for fun, don't expect to get a lot out of each game but someday one game will get attention
An interesting thing with this dream that you REALLY need: rest.
Just rest, take a nap, a break.
Otherwise you end up frustrated.
This was super interesting to watch! I usually don't listen to podcasts but if you made one, I'm in! Great job once again Jonas!
I'd listen to that too.❤
The thing that makes me want to keep making games is the excitement of creating an awesome interactive story that someone else will enjoy. When I get tired of coding, making assets, or whatever I just think about the overall awesome idea I have for current and future projects and it keeps me going.
If Jonas game dev career fails, he should become a journalist. Great interview!
This was a great interview. The part on personal branding I've been doing for like 2-3 years and man it a slog to try to post every day / every week and even when I was consistent and doing it, my growth was almost nothing. It's a devastating process emotionally
I have the same problem with another business I run.
*_I guess he figured out that there's more money selling the dream than the dream itself...._*
Tom's course is $600, the site intentionally doesn't seem to mention it in a straightforward way so you read all the stuff and get hyped up and uses a trust-building marketing tactic that bombards you with other people's testimonials to cue in those human socio psychological feelings of becoming soft to the idea, and that's a heavy sticker. Also, he's got a poster image on the site with 2 games with total $900k revenue grossing, but his course site states that he's got over 3k students in this course. That comes out to $1.8 million gross from the course. And even at the 800 students stated in this video, it was nearly $500k.
Right now, it seems that he's made more money with his course than both his games combined. I don't think that there's much of any middleware taking cuts with the course so the ratio is probably even better. And who knows how old/accurate that number is, either way, not a good look to me.
+1 to all that. Beware of people selling self-help. Especially in a world where the internet exists and people can learn almost anything for free, paid self-help services are usually just a way to prey on the unsuccessful.
As sad and anoying as it is, not putting up the price front and center is common practice in online courses and I wouldn't hold it against him that he's using proven tactics to increase the revenue for his labour. There's lots of courses out there that do it way worse, where you even have to sign up to get to know the price or where you don't get to know the price at all and can only sign up for a waitlist.
For your calculations you need to consider that a lot of the participants propably were able to sign up with a big discount.
Also him getting 100k in crowd funding from both games, but him "spending all of it". He said he made them at a full time desk job. So he was getting paid, to make the game. Unless he spent $200k on marketing (which he didn't cause he used his social media following). He made plenty of money between the Kickstarter and the continuous sales. So it's really suspicious that he "spent all the money" from the crowdfunding to make the game when really it was a net profit because he was already getting paid at his regular job to make the game due to him using the computer at work on company time. It doesn't add up.
@@dakotafrazier2985 wtf are u on about? Of course he did not get paid for it, he did it on the side, next to his day job
@@SirNoviTheChauvi 2:07 he said "I was making it (pinstripe) from my cubicle at my desk job". So yeah. He was at work. On company time. Getting paid to make the game. He also raised $100,000 on Kickstarter for that game... While he was already working and supporting himself. Where did the 100k go?
Thank you for showing me that I don't want to be a game developer.
🤣 I feel the same. I'm making my game for me and if others like it then great
@@XanderwoodGameDev wow I find you alot in the game dev world!
@@ccg5656 glad to hear it 😁❤
@@XanderwoodGameDev Did you make any games?
@@XanderwoodGameDev yeah but you gotta advertise it, otherwise even people who would've liked it will never get to see it
Ngl but for the whole time I felt like Thomas wanted to sell me something. I was instantly put off by it and I appreciated even more how honest and likeable Jonas is in his videos. So the upvote/like goes to you Jonas :D
Hard Truth : Selling a game is harder than making it. Thomas got a publisher but pinstripe still fails to meet his expectations.
An even harder truth is that he claims to live off his games... and sells that to his desperate audience. Absolutely disgusting. Simply imagine how many people will purchase this course. To me, it is very unhealthy to market a course with "stop dreaming start selling your game fulltime". I lost all respect for this guy. He became a sleazy car dealer, brainwashing his audience with motivational speech... Show of his wealth (film his house, riding on a 5k bike filmed by a drone to portrait financial freedom) Typical sleazy guru practices. I hope people start to open their eyes and simply find a good coding tutorial and buy a marketing book. It will cost you a lot less and you will have REAL information. Not this airy delusional stuff. People will disagree with me... that's fine... all I can do is my part in my own defunked way. There is nothing wrong with earning money or making a course. But keep things fair. This tool claims that his course is better than college or even university. The guy is delusional, capitalizing on the desperate aspiring developers. The demand for tutorials is a lot bigger than the demand for his games. Check every video and notice for yourself: everyone asks for tutorials. Open your eyes people,
@Darren Munsell but is it easier to capitalize off that mocap film via logs, tutorials, and other content, as well as to build an audience for it?
@Darren Munsell it all started with crowdfunding, and spread to platform partnerships, publishers, and game sales across all platforms.
Hey Kristian, it's Thomas! Thanks for your comment, and I'll try and address it :) When I first launched Pinstripe -- correct, it failed to meet my expectations. But as with any business venture, you slowly build your portfolio, and create various arms of income in and throughout it. So, here's how it played out for me, and how indie game studios might see something similar: I launched a Kickstarter campaign, while also signing a small agreement with a publisher. That was enough for me to finish Pinstripe. After that was recouped, I used that income to create my next game, although I also needed some support on Kickstarter for that one (Neversong). In and through that, I built my UA-cam channel and personal brand. Around last year things really took off: my games Pinstripe and Neversong have found platforms, partnerships, and sales opportunities all over the place, including Apple Arcade and physical launches. The hard truth is that for most indies, they expect one game to be the single means of income, immediately. When in reality it's a slow drip of income that builds over time. Thanks for your comment, and I wish you a ton of success!
@@Jennifer-ju8de anyone can learn game dev for free the hardest part of this is getting exposure and getting people to buy your stuff. In all my years of doing creative things Ive made more money in one day at my real day job.
Thomas Brush is all about "Oh i said we but I mean it's only me, coz I'm so lonely " "Oh I definetely hire people when I can coz i don't need to do things myself anymore" Yeah... such a genuine guy (no)
Refusing to go back to a desk job, when his pregnant wife with a chronic illness is working FT to pay the mortgage - only in game dev does that sound like a heroic thing. The indie dream is fine, but we need to stop the myth of the starving solo dev (who's actually supported by their spouse, almost always a wife).
No way! A 40 min Video! I can't wait to watch :D
6:34 THIS part is REALLY important to anyone that wants to be a gamedev, and I'm glad that Thomas Brush is so open about it.
The reason all your favourite gamedevs are on youtube (or selling courses) is because they need a second revenue stream next to making games.
They scrape every value they get into something that generates income, be it experience, skill, knowledge, devlogs, or even shitposting
I like the animations throughout this! In fact, there was clearly a lot of effort put into editing for such a long video. Thanks a bunch Jonas!
Think of this:
Everything around you is a product. Look around you. The chair you are sitting on, the computer, the screws, cables and lights that makes them work...
Someone is behind each of the products that you use every day. Someone made and sold that to you, and is selling that to others.
The market is huge. There is a lot of space for people to sell a product. Your game is another one of those products.
You need to make people see your product and that you help you sell it. Put it out there. Create an Instagram account... twitter, youtube... Use hashtags. Engage with other creators and your audience. Try stuff.
Just keep searching for that thing that will make your product cool and unique.
And be ready to fail and have people saying no to you. Only be stubborn when it comes to keep trying.
Good luck!
@Just Neo Hahaha. sorry about that. Good luck completing a project I guess :P
This video turned out to be so much more insightful , helpful and surprisingly wholesome than I thought it would be .
Thank you 😌
The indie game dev dream IS real, it may be hard to achieve but anything worth getting to is hard to achieve.
I love this video. listening to it in the background as I'm wrapping up a game for my first game jam. Thanks for taking the time to put this together!
It's real for people who realize they are competing against AAA games, and do the necessary work in product quality and marketing. Some luck always helps too
The dream is real, everyone can dream.
Reality on the other hand can be pretty brutal.
It's definitely possible, more so nowadays, to become an independent game dev and musician. The opportunities and resources independent people have are really great. You just have to work pretty hard and learn from your mistakes.
If you don't notice your mistakes and aren't open to *constructive* criticism, then you don't really have a chance tbh.
Remember that your first few public projects are more than likely going to be crap, absolutely CRAP. However, eventually you'll learn and see what works well and what doesn't. Then you'll probably make a decent income.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
And like you said, with the tools available in the modern day, its a lot easier then it used to be, especially if your game is small.
Damn, the part where you talked about detaching your identity from game development was a huge eye opener for me. Because up until this point, I was pretty much Mr. Game Developer. Like daaamn. If I hadn’t heard that, I’d probably get crippling depression in the future. It’s kinda difficult though, because I want to be passionate about what I create so my games aren’t soulless. But at the same, I don’t want crippling depression if my games flop.
I think what I’ll do is start going to the gym more often, because being swole would be badass. That’ll be my backup personality so to speak.
Gotta say, "Life is a massive RPG" is a pretty nice quote :D
You know what.
You may be correct
Life is actually an MMORPG.
@@arsenal4444 Its not pay to win. There is a lot of grinding and most people just dont like to grind.
Not quite. When someone horribly beats you up (or shoots you) in a game, you can still survive, reload, respawn, or even create a new profile and start from scratch. Someone can set you on fire - no pain whatsoever. AND you always REMEMBER your failures from the "previous life". So, you can freely experiment, as there are no serious consequences. You don't even age and become too old to run uphill. In real life you don't remember your previous failures, so you keep repeating same old mistakes. Youngsters are always stupid and naive. But if you think this is just a video game (and maybe it is) stand in front of an oncoming train and find out.
@@cinegraphics You’re dark.
I remember when I first started game development, I went to Jonas and asked him to do blender videos 😅😂
13:17 - Brush is absolutely right here. It's 100% possible to sell your game when you have no idea how to actually make games. Just look at Day of Dragons.
Excellent discussion! Recently I have been struggling with this whole idea. In particular from watching this I realise that I care too much about myself. Of course there will be failures, of course not everyone will like me or my games - and that's okay. I need to stop wasting so much time procrastinating and get going!
Your channel is one of the greatest resources for game devs. The videos are entertaining, informative and leave me feeling good afterwards. Thanks for all you have made, keep up the excellent work :]
I have a new found respect and love for Thomas after watching this video, thank you so much! I feel super inspired and drivin!
been waiting for a Jonas video love ur content
Thank youuu. :)
Its so cool that you got Thomas for this Topic!
Two of my favorite game devs in one video!😄 (You see this Army thing works😂)
Dev army😑
Hey Jonas, hey Thomas,
thank you so much for this video, it was really helpful.
Espacially the social media part, since I'm uploading my first Beta in 1 and a half week and building an audience really helps!
Very very insightful, thank you for making this Jonas and Thomas. I wish you all a merry Christmas and all the best!
I'm at the beginning of my game development career. I will return to this video so many times. So many valuable realizations. Thank you, both of you!
I'm crying right now. Thanks for this video, Jonas and Thomas, thanks!
loved this so much, it’s beyond scary starting out and this just helps answer so many questions and build so much excitement
Love these interviews! They give a lot of people new perspectives on game development which I think is amazing!
Thank you both Jonas and Thomas for this really well made interview! 💪😁🎉 So inspiring learning from the both of you. 😍
Great to hear such an honest and open conversation between two developers, thank you!
Love this. So much good stuff on here! Thanks for putting this together.
This is great. You can see how much effort Thomas Brush puts into the visuals when contrasted with Jinas Tyroller. Not to diss Jonas Tyroller, but look how Thomas is using colours, cameras angle, clothes. He is a great seller of himself. And it's very professional. Very marketable. So well done Thomas. I watched his videos earlier over the past 2 years, saw the lighting and how every video is edited, and I was like "dude loves himself too much". But maybe I understand him more now, as I understand myself more. I think I've accepted that people skills are directed down avenues. Wheras most game devs would like to stay in the back ground and let thier games do the talking, some other people take thier creative endeavours into the whole enghilada. Someone like me, who is FukUgly would ofcourse like to stay of the screen, but someone who is presentable, and looks above average, and has a heavy interest in art, of course , should maximise it.
f to me :'(
Brilliantly put, I also got the same impression of Thomas a few years ago but hes definitely improved and grown on me.
But seriously, your talk with Thomas is such an important piece of advice/ information for any game developer. In fact, what you have talked about in the last part of the video applies to people's life in general. Thank you again.
This was a very pleasant listen. Thanks for the podcast. Hope you can do some more in the future! :)
I’m so glad I found this right now. I needed this and it is such an inspiration to me. Time to work harder and dedicate more time to learning.
What an awesome interview :) As someone living in an area where there are not that many game studios (Austria), I kinda have to be indie/move to another place it really inspires me to work even harder on my game to make it one day on my own. I also just wishlisted you game and will definitly check it out once its done :)
Never seen a content like this. Built to make you feel like you can do it. It gives you hope. This is the best content that I watched ever. Such inspiring content. Makes me wanna try again once I purchase a laptop. My previous computer broke once, and it's incredibly old. It had a 32bit OS, I could barely use Unity 5. I forgot a few practices from past in coding but I am getting it all back together and improve my skills. I am practicing more stuff in C# and once I am ready, I want to at least _actually_ succeed. Thank you for making this content for everyone including me that's interested in Indie Game Development.
Very informative and well edited video Jonas and Thomas! Love you guys's vids
hi jonas, I recently found your channel and I just wanted to say that you are one of the best game dev channels and you helped me a lot
This is such a great interview. Love both you guys!
This is a great source of perspective. There is a lot to learn from the experiences discussed here. I think we all strive to achieve that "full-time indie developer success", but think little about what it would take to get there.
Thanks for doing / posting this interview. Really appreciate all of the comments and I think this at least confirms for me that I don't want to be that style of game developer. The marketing / social media side of things really puts me off. I am a full-time non-game dev and that's fine for me. Also, single player games are not my thing, either to play or to develop. I have created a game before for Android and it was a really valuable experience but not a financially profitable one. I have also made an online multiplayer game and that was loads of fun, still not financially profitable (but was not intended to be). I like making these style of games just for the pleasure of building something and having other people enjoy it. But these will never lead to a full-time-game-dev career - and this video helped to clarify that for me. Thank you.
I'd like to hear people's thoughts on whether it's feasible to succeed financially with an online MMO that is either subscription-based or contains microtransactions (say for cosmetic items - really hate pay-to-win so I'd never make anything like that) or similar. Not yet sure if I want to take that route but I am confident I have the technical skills to do it. I do struggle with marketing so I'd be leaning heavily towards outsourcing that part or partnering with someone.
Its awesome how this conversation about game dev translates nicely to almost every other hobby/profession (sports, music, or even stocktrading...)
This is a really great video, thank you! That was what tipped the scale for me to buy the course.
love these types of videos you make! Keep up the good work
I think I was needing something like this...Thanks, Jonas, love your content, bro!! I always feel like I'm running on circles, I don't have an identity when it comes to game development, but I think I got a clue on where to focus, and the tips you two shared in this video are going to help me a lot!! Thanks again, you two made a great video!
Happy you found it useful. Thanks. :)
wonderful video man, I watched it fully. make more videos like this:)
Luck is a HUGE part of any success but you need to be in the position to capitalize on it which is where the work comes in.
I learnt so much in this video....
I quitted Gamedev 2 years ago, but i'm still an entrepreneur... And Thomas vision is so deep... It made me relativize so much my last weeks which were pretty hard.. It helps me so much. Thank you guys
This is one of the best and most useful videos I have ever seen. Thank you.
Thanks for the informative video Jonas and Thomas. I hope I can go full time someday (I'm currently still in highschool), but even the 16 downloads my latest game got make me happy.
Nice information, thanks to Thomas, and thanks to Jonas for preparing the nice questions
15:58 - "Probably the most important skill you need is communication..."
Its so fun and wholesome to see game dev youtubers doing a collab to help us aspiring game developers
Very interesting video. Thomas is great. But im still waiting for the next will you snail devlog. I love your game jonas!👌
"the problem is not how to make games , the problem is to find people who like your game"
This was an amazing watch. A lot of interesting views hopefully it can help change some peoples lives.
I started learning gamdev....dropped it..stoped watching almost every gamedev youtuber but I watch your every single video Jonas and also dani's....you inspire me alot Jonas 😌💗 Thanks a lot ...... you're such a talented person......
You guys helped me to make my decision a lot. I shall take less time taking a dump and spend more time doing my game. Thanks!
so far I'm on a really good path on my journey of being a game dev, idk if I wanna be indie yet but I'm on my way, I wish I could have a conversation with one of these guys or any game dev UA-camr bc this inspired me even more and I wish I knew these guys personally also bc they seem like good mentors
Thank you very much
It changed my perspective not only on indie game Dev but on life ❤️👍
So much respect for Jonas, love his frank and honest questions and reflections. Integrity and honesty really matter. Especially loved the question about Thomas’s course. Really on point. I have Will You Snail on wish list and will be buying this no matter what.
Thomas Bursh is straight up the bob ross of game dev. His voice is so calming in his tutorial videos.
I have just realized this video was uploaded today lol, thanks for this information 🙏
What a beautiful early Christmas present. Great video Jonas!
Omg watching this wasnt just A truth revealed about Game Development, It was so much about Life too! Glad I decided to See this. Thanks Jonas!
Thanks for the video Jonas, it was really helpful!
I really enjoyed this. Very helpful and very interesting. Thanks guys
Really good video, I can relate, learn from all ur failures and dont be afraid. I was lucky with my first app but it was just a random thing lol... got better with every game after
This was fun, learned so much from you guys thankies.
I'd equate the indie game dream to being similar to wanting to be a singer or artist. You CAN do it, if you were born with the motivation and appropriate talents and then also have support/come across the appropriate opportunities. Even then if you have everything and still put in lots of effort to getting the word out there etc. you still may not be recognised and will most likely end up having to do cover songs at pubs etc. to make ends meet.
It's better to treat it as a hobby than as a career until you are better than the vast majority of people at it AND have the time/money to invest into making it your career.
I really enjoyed this video, it’s easy to dream but really it’s a matter of how much you work for that dream. The thing about dreaming is you can’t actually realize the dream if you’re dreaming all the time... you actually have to wake up and get things done. And that’s an exciting thought.
Great video, guys! Thanks for this
One day, trust, won’t be easy, will be hard work, but one day
So wise! Thank you, this was a pleasure to listen.
Here on the 1 year anniversary by total accident! But I shared this with a discord of indies! Great advice!
Great video! Really motivating and making me happy! :D
Very good video. I 100% agree with everything beeing said. I myself have a family (2kids) on my shoulders but on the other side i want to follow my dream. So i grind and grind to achieve it! I know i will fail, but i also know that i wont give up
We should make a game jam were the theme is "create a new flash player"
Yay! My two favourites having a chat!
I know this vid is a bit old and first time me seeing it, I just want to add these 2 people are very good people and down to earth. Sometimes when people just start speaking and say about their exp you can tell they are good people. Thank you for this vid :)
thank you. two awesome guys, living the dream
Ich bin schon seit den GameMaker Tutorials von vor 8 Jahren am Start.. Schön zu sehen wie du dich entwickelt hast und gönne dir den Erfolg!
PS: Du hast mal mein Spiel gespielt bei Lets Play eure Spiele :)
Hey this video was great and very inspiring! Thanks a lot!
Great to see you both in same video
Thank you guys! This was awesome.
33:24 "You were born with all that" I can't agree with having the luck of working hard on an ability that had to be developed for years lmao. I would more so agree with the luck of being seen EVEN if you are talented. So many talented creators don't get seen today because they lacked the luck of getting noticed. Just a little nit-pick ;)
36:43 This is great advice. I have heard of it before! I heard of "imagine yourself as a vessel for good ideas from a greater force/being" .... definitely woo-woo but the detachment just... works. That video game/animal crossing comparison really hit the nail on the head! All the stuff that holds us back is all stuff we internalized as we grew up and some have more negative assumptions than others. It's a great practice to separate our identity and thoughts with our aspirations and dreams. I really needed this reminder.
42:45 Great advice! Great video. Thanks for making it happen and enlighten all those creatives out there :D
Amazing talk and great guest!