This list is completely outdated. This was made for Warhammer 2 where the punishing melee cheats of the enemy would make most of the roster difficult to use. In Warhammer 3 this isn't the case so most of the units I called trash in this are actually quite viable.
building requirements also changed a lot. I am playing a pretty fun campaign with Throgg, and looked up your tier list. would be worth a refresh. I would also be interested what would you do against the chaos dwarves with Norsca in a stream.
If you're willing to finish campaign fast, That's the worst strategic suggestion from legend I've ever heard. I really appreciate his cautious ways in other races but i believe his norscan ways... Theyre not viable if you want a fast paced campaign
The only way you play norsca now is surviving from Kislev, Empire and Brettonia onslaught. Get war mammoth and get upkeep reduction stacks going, from building, kicking Archaon's ass, and sending 1 doomstack to capture tilea.
@@emanuelevitale5325 Legend keeps saying that fast expansion is a trap for legendary difficulty. I wonder if that has changed after the public order rework
@@yueqi7499 That's more because of upkeep. You need high tier settlements to sustain more armies/recruit better units. Expansion becomes pointless if you can't defend your settlements. Don't know about Norsca though, I never play them because I find the campaign mechanics very dull.
@@yueqi7499 i believe he takes into account the caution before everything because he never gets to late game cause he gets bored easily and the Livestream consensus grant him a pass against any late game boredom. But truth is if you're willing to keep playing the legend ways you're condemned to wait till turn 250-399 before watching the long campaign victory screen. I'm not saying you won't win. I'm saying it takes way more turns of grinding
@Cuman Gaming Yeah except that was only a top 5, and there are far more than 5 units in the 'doomstack' category, and things change with time. I would actually be surprised if war mammoths are still the number 1 doomstack in the game today. Pretty sure sisters of averlorn can shit all over them. Maybe necrofex collosus too, not sure. That's why a modern tier list using tiermaker would be a really good thing. The old video is dated now. That's how updates work.
@Cuman Gaming And its been outdated for years.... WH2 is coming to an end, its time to make an up to date list because in WH3 we will get new factions and the old races wont be getting any love for a while (apart from norsca and chaos) so the new doomstack list would be valid for atleast a few years.
@@badgerbane sisters would get stomped by a mammoth doomstack. They struggle against single entity spam and there is no way sisters, even if focus firing, will drop more than 2-3 mammoths before they’re being trampled to a pulp. The mammoths are just too tanky and numerous in doomstack form.
Honestly Norsca is the reason why I bought total war in the first place cause I loved the idea of fantasy viking. I hope they get their time in the sun
Yeah, I really hope they get a proper remake. Right now they are barely playable, but the problem is, Idk how to make them better. Just removing their upkeep and making a tomb kings 3.0 is just boring and uninovating. The main thing has to be to do something about the supply lines or boost their low tier unites to make them work better. Over all it is still a raider faction and it just sucks that you are raiding with fucking mammoths instead of infantry and so on. :/
@@axelmuller7946 they are chaos worshipping faction, Archaeon used to be a norscan warlord aswell.... they will get an update in WH3 for sure, most likely something related to which chaos god you decide to give favor the most, or maybe none of them... since they dont need to worship.
@@Otakahunt true, I also expect them to get a rework and most likely even before VC, because it would fit better. I will most likely play Norsca in W3, just because in W2 they make 0 Fun and having to fight Wintertooth and Bretonia in your Homeland at turn 20 is fucking too much with Rakarth and Kislev just waiting for the Moment to jump in. Would win it, just don't see the point in it. :/
@@axelmuller7946 Something that keeps you from being tethered to your settlements, I'd say. Herdstone-sized garrisons (which puts an even higher focus on sniping other Norscan faction leaders, instead of occupying territory), and Pirate/Hellebrone-style navies patrolling the waters, etc.
I think they are fun in camping. Maybe not on legendary, but on hard they are for me. Yes they are lacking compared to other factions, but they didn't get less fun to play as
war mammoths also have missile attack, and war shrine don't. This attack is not much, but over the course of prolonged battle it adds up. In regardless of tier and cost I would always pick war mammoths over war shrine ones.
Albion can make a difference when it comes to Fimir and Giants. The Ogham stones building chain allows you to recruit them at tier 3. I tend to prioritize getting rid of Rakarth anyway. Most of the time he is a liability rather than asset anyway.
You can also get them at tier three at Erengrad ( and +3 recruit ranks for them faction wide), Although getting Erengrad to tier 3 is a load of work of cours.
its so weird to me how Bretonnia (a civilized agriculture/trade economy) has no supply lines while Norsca (a race that is almost a horde faction and is based on raiding for money) has to deal with supply lines. The head-canon of supply lines is supposed to be that there is a logistical inefficiency that is introduced from attempting to sort the needs (ammunition, equipment, replacement troops, and wages) of a larger military and transport them to the correct armies, which may be very far from each other and from the most developed parts of the empire. With Bretonnia, you can argue that because in lore they are much less centralized in their military planning than say the Empire or the Helves (each lord brings all their knights and each knight of the realm brings all the M-at-A and yeomen he can etc.), so there wouldn't be a bureaucracy of paymasters. But with Norsca it takes even less thought to see how they wouldn't have supply lines. Norsca, being vikings, don't pay wages at all. The payment is a share of the spoils, and they live off the land/sea or take enough with them for the duration of the invasion before they go home.
I think with Norsca it can be explained as every individual chieftain taking more of the loot for themselves. Similarly to how it is with Greenskins with "who's da boss" Plus with Bretonnians, each army is funded by the lord themselves. They handle the logistics of the army, not the state
@@heitorpedrodegodoi5646 Ranged/Artillery got Buffed hardcore and Infantry became practically worthless if you properly cheese. No, not tactics...but actual cheese in manipulating based on the AI's limitations rather than battle tactics.
I wanna make a case for the Marauder Hunters. If you intend to destroy Couronne early, then the Marauder Hunters are an excellent unit, as one of these can kill multiple units of cavalry. They negate the shields of that high-tier cavalry, armor does not bother them and they don't instantly break when they get charged. It is also not true that they cannot arc their shots. Javelins have a lower arc, while the axes fly in a very steep arc and then drop down. Maybe you haven't givem them a fair chance yet?
Fully Agreed. Also the norscan ice warhound, the large variant, they are actually way more effective at Killing and harassing than the their smaller counterpart. Perfect against archery troops from the empire and even dwarfs. The normal werekin should actually be listed same as a good unit, as long as your micro is good enough to make them recover through regen. And there's a good amount of balanced armies needed unfortunately with norsca. And this includes usage of marauder champion as backbone. And legend is just not good at playing the balanced army ways because of how much addicted he is to easy to micro armies where he standardize the role of the whole army instead of having many specialized roles in the stack. So for him having 4-5 different units in an army is a nightmare per se. Which of course can work well... But norsca only gains reduced upkeep after turn 100 and that NOT acceptable to leave the empire and dwarves unchallenged till then. Because taking them out before confed have started is the very key to winning with norsca without spending days through grinding the mid late game.
@@emanuelevitale5325 I don't agree with everything. For example, Legend has proven sufficiently, that he can win with so called balanced armies. He does regularly in his disaster videos.
@@Bubbl3Bubbl3gum i see what you mean and i share your opinion on the fact that he can win with that. He proved that enough. But it doesn't imply that he likes that. I noted a tendency of his to oversimplify excessively his army composition just in name of an easier time during the micro of the battle. There's always a good measure in everything. And i believe that this way of playing punishes the races with a necessity for a varied army.
The problem with hunter is not the arc, they are juste really unprecise in their shots. They are good at shooting in the clear or in the back of troops
@@jaklcide I find they're good for catch fast missile units that mammoths struggle with. But this is on normal, they probably lose to archers in melee on legendary.
I've done skin wolf and armored skin wolf doom stacks as Norsca and I found them very fun to use. They're relatively quick for a Norscan unit and they're anti large, which means you can gang up on the tougher units in the enemy army and take them down pretty easily.
Skin wolfs are soo good, I can't understand why he's shitting on them. they are the unit to use for taking down monsters in the campaign mechanic (at least before you get mammoths). Plus you usualy get the follower that boost them.
I would argue that Marauder Berserkers are good, especially with all the upgrades you can get them quite early in the tech tree and with lord skills. They deal a ton of damage with frenzy + rage and are quite sturdy and resilient once they have reached the enemy lines.
When i did the achievement for very hard norscan campaign and had to go with normal battle difficulty to make up for the garbage economy. Berserkers at tier2 where probably the best melee unit ive ever experienced. They delete everything in their way
@@emanuelevitale5325 you mean VH changes it too much... Normal is the true experience since AI doesnt get any cheats so units perform the way they are meant to perform.
@@shibre9543 What do you mean no? How can you say handicapping yourself by giving the AI cheats is the true experience? Nothing against very hard but i consider it a challenge run not the default.
The funny thing is that their roster is actually very good for what they are (rush faction), but their economy cripples them. Very few faction can beat high level norscan armies one on one, but almost every faction can field more armies than them.
I don't think they are weak, they are balanced for what they are, just so happens that the top dog factions from the second game are incredibly bonkers and good at everything. What they need the most is tuning to their economy, something that incentives the player to be aggressive, maybe make their units dirt cheap to maintain but their buildings more expensive so in order to get better units you have to raid the southlands.
I do like skinwolves/armores skinwolves. they are here to intercept cavalry (and in that case, up to you if you need speed or armor) or as real fast melee flanking units. Usually anti armor will have better stuff to shoot at than skinwolves anyway. Also, the point of the ice wolves is their frostbite: they can slow fleeing enemies for other troops to catch them (so ice wolves pair greatly as cavalry hunters with armored skinwolves)
@@alexeyalexandrov7583 think they do if they don't get charged at least (and with their speed they shouldn't). Overall, I only saw armored skinwolves struggle when faced with elite cavalry (not shock cavalry, those get eaten alive). the key really is that they are reasonably beefy with regen, have some armor piercing, move fast, and are anti large all rolled into a convenient package. All these traits together makes them really good cavalry killers, and still useful in a role similar to cavalry themselves and decent monster killers. They are unvariably my fast moving unit of choice when i play Norsca (usually the armored kind with some ice wolves to help them catch what is faster than they are)
I'd like to see a trait tier list for generic lords / heroes. Not sure how you would do it since it can be race specific and it might be long. Not like it matters for me. My RNG luck is crap.
I didn't believe Legend when he said Norsa were awful to play, until I played them recently, OmG they are Awful. Their main land is a nightmare to get around, their finances are terrible, everybody hates you, the special abilities to the gods is pants, you can only take certain cities on the campaign map and when you do take them you can't defend them and units in general are cannon fodder. Funnily enough I had a easier time with Throgg than Manfred due to getting the Frost Wyrm and War Mammoth in less than 15 turns on vh / vh.
You just have to survive the early start, and you can quicky get a hold of all the norscan land. Build the rightsl buildings and your raiding armies will pretty much get free. You can totally bully the empire and bretonnia
I found their replenishment hardest to deal with, you don't have any post-battle way to replace casualties and so I found your forced to do raiding, and that's it. Which is fine if you want to be a nuisance to other people all game, less so if you actually want to take someone out
Plus global recruitment with Norsca takes so much longer than every other faction, meaning you HAVE to return to your settlements to replenish your forces if you lose a unit, and if you've not captured a nearby racial capital then good luck, coz you're stuck with basic level human units
Who needs an economy when you can just sack everyone else? Played in the red all game and kept myself going by sacking and raiding. Bleeding money all game but had like 80k in the bank so who cares.
I just finished a Norsca campaign and MY GOD NEVER AGAIN. It was a slog and I was basically always losing money. The only thing that kept me going was just constantly sacking cities which meant it took me almost 300 turns to finish the campaign. Normally I can have one done in 140-170 turns.
I have pretty much the opposite viewpoint on Fimir with Greatweapons and Armored skinwolves. Fimir with greatweapons just delete single entities. Same for Armored skinwolves (who are squishier but faster, but generally performt he same anti-large role). They're really good at dealing with the enemies that your mammoths are the worst at dealing with. Use the mammoth to blunt the enemy attack, then just razor them up. Adding 4 of them will lower army costs (vs a pure mammoth stack) and make it more effective.
Surprised ice wolfs are do not recruit, been playing a vh/vh campaign and sending them around the flanks into missile infantry or skirmish cav they pretty quickly delete the unit with minimal casualties.
Norsca ingame: has difficulty raising and maintaining huge armies Norsca in lore: raises a 10,000-man strong armies every other generation while living in a frozen wasteland
14:15 I actually like having 3-5 cards of ice wolves. They aren't good at dealing damage, but they are good at surrounding then chasing a clumped army of +5 ranged units away that are in skirmish mode. They can also harass routed enemies often until they shatter or completely die from the harassment. It is quite easy to make enemies flee due to many of their monsters and wild beasts that cause terror so I always use ice wolves to mop up the fleeting units. I thought you'd rank them higher honestly. 21:55 I have a love/hate relationship with skin wolves. They are anti large and youre usually using them to fight cavalry or artillery from the human race. Armored ones have increased survivability and can take some hits or be charged into. Armorless ones have to be held back until the cavalry commits or the artillery is left alone and then you can flank them. Depending on how well I do and how the AI performs on the campaign I might really need them if I am struggling or not need a single one if I am having an easy time (It is just better to have 19 skin wolf werekin heroes when you have an easy game. They get better stats and immortality. You can carefully select ones with good personal traits such as poison attacks, strider, or whatever you need. Theyre expensive to upkeep and get enough buildings for them so it's not wise to doomstack them if youre already struggling which is why I tend to love me my regular skin wolves and why I think they needed a higher scoring).
On mammoths. I believe that shooting eats at your vigour so shooting war mammoths will get tired sooner than non-shooting variants. Isn't that a factor to be considered?
I disagree, I think it's very fun because you can unite the whole north in the first 20-30 turn, then make alliance with the skaven then raid the shit out from the empire and other fractions in the south. You just have to keep the dark elves in neutral
Interesting, I was expecting the Champion units to be under "these are good" being only tier 3 and very good in melee compared to even tier 4 units of other factions. Tier 3 skin wolves should be under "you can make these work" IMO
The problem is that very hard battle difficulty punishes melee infantry to such an absurd degree. Enemy units all get bonuses to leadership, melee attack, melee defense and weapon strength, while all your units lose leadership. This is why strong single entities and good missile units are so important on very hard battle difficulty. Marauder champions are good, but with the AI's cheats, you'll be going up against enemy artillery and powerful missiles by tier 3 when fighting the empire, or you'll be dealing when powerful Bretonnian knights, as they don't have to worry about negative mechanics like the peasant economy
It's a "little" different from tier lists (which are great so far!) but I would love to see you tackle each faction's optimal build and playstyle, like how to set up their economy, what army composition to go for at different stages of the campaign, and how to build their heroes/lords. that would be insane!
This is the only video that I didn't agreed with yet. Berserkers are definitely the best infantry unit early game. Also, Skin Wolfs are a great unit for messing up with enemies and having like 2-4 of them in the army helps a lot.
If you mix Fimir with Berserkers they will melt through a front line like you would not believe; unfortunately you will be fighting range heavy factions so that's not all that important. Edit: I wish you could play as that norsca lord by Mazdamundi, just spend your time beating up lizards, Orcs and Vampires.
Truth is in late game giants stack grants you a cheap way for autoresolving sieges. Which you tend to deal with a lot. Way better than other more expensive alternatives. Still. On manual battle they're a pain.
The Ice Wolf Chariot would be soooo much better if the missile attack was 360 degree. The Surtha Ek doomstack would be really legit with that one change. The Throg Ice Troll stack is a legit low tier Doomstack. I have never regretted running it in my Wulfrik campaign. In a lot of ways it's easier to use than the mammoth doomstack. I don't know how much credit you want to give that, but it's absolutely a good unit in that context. As bad as the armored skin wolves are, it's even worse because you get the +1 hero capacity at tier 3, so you're usually building that building in a minor settlement anyway. So they're not even available unless you do something pretty inconvenient.
He doesnt consider faction/hero specific doomstacks. If you would do that goblins would be top tier with Grom :D But regardless, I agree, Throg ice trolls put the shivers in the ordertide.
i believe the marauder hunters axethrowers are kinda like a one-two punch unit, whereas you have berserkers or champions glued behind them, let them throw their volley as the enemy units approach and then let the melee infantry charge right after, so you can make their shieldbreaker useful for your melee units
Great video as always. However one mention is if you get surtha ek you could doom stack chariots imo especially if you send him south and kill settra and get the 100% chariot weapon strenght buff. They are not the best doom stack but very fun nonetheless.
I really hope that Norsca gets a major rework/overhaul in Warhammer 3. I've always loved the aesthetic of Norsca but I need more incentive than that to go through the pain of playing them.
You talked about Throg and the Warekin hero and how good/bad they are. I hate to make you rethink your series here but maybe including heroes and the legendary lords here would be good? Sometimes the heros/lords are what make a race/units work.
I have a suggestion for new tier lists. AI unit tier list, which units are the most dangerous/useful in the hands of the AI. Rankings could go from easy to fight to avoid if fighting if possible.
one of the lowkey crippling things about norsca is that one of their main gimmicks is frostbite, which lets you rout a unit, chase it down, an then shatter it quickly. too bad your playing on legendary battle difficulty and all of the units are nearly unbreakable!! they don't care if they're stuck in melee with you because they will almost always trade up while you will trade down, so naturally your units will also break first, and by the time their units break it's barely worth running them down anyway because they're already practically dead. I geuss norsca could be strong against skaven since even with the buffs they can still be routed too bad most of your campaign will be spent fighting empire, brettonia, an maybe dark elves
Just crazy to me Norsca doesn't use a horde mechanic or something similar. 0 of the legendary lords build up a settlement in lore Throgg funnily enough being the closest while Wulfgar had aspirations at one point but absolutely does not. Also why is every campaign scenario negative in some way and happening all the time. How many times must I melt my armies bracers XD?
This is very outdated now, would love to see updates to these videos in general since immortal empires. Norscan roster and economy are much more balanced and Throgg kicks absolute ass. Throgg ice troll doomstack with a fimir sorceror is top tier now. Throggs trolls are superior to fimirs in every aspect thanks to their regen. Ice wolves are also far better than other cavs in my opinion. Marauders are still trash though.
The way I use horse master is I cycle charge units that go out of formation with like 3 horsemasters. You surround them and charge from all sides at the same time it just deletes most infantry units. Even higher tiered ones.
i've found that feral mammoths are a great way to make a strong auto-resolve army that can be manually piloted for even better results, with great ease. i just stack them all in a big blob at the start, and throw them into the middle of the enemy army. they will all rampage and start chasing down any and all units that run away so it's basically zero micro needed. and they perform very well in battle. (at least on medium and hard battle difficulty, which is what i've played on with them) they're cheaper than the war mammoth and so are more easily spammed for your armies. i usually go with a couple of war mammoth doom-stacks and then just use feral mammoth spams as clean-up crews so that my doomstacks don't have to waste time running down fleeing armies and minor settlements.
amen on the fimir. god, i want to love them because they're stylistically interesting (like rock geese with arms lol) but they just ... don't do anything. if something fights them, sure, a fimir can smack it up, but it's so tedious to arrange, and i just don't have a reason to do it when it's more effective to even use the skin wolves.
Small point about skinwolves/armoured skinwolves/ Norscan trolls If you just own Konquata (Albion's capital) and Altdorf (Which you should be or else you gonna have a hard time breaking through late game empire) and throgg's monster recruit time reduction (which is global) You can recruit normal norsca trolls, skinwolves and armoured skinwolves in one turn in global. Doesn't really justify these units in standing armies but useful for popping out a emergency stack
If the armored skin wolves is tier 4 you should probably put them under never recruit rather than only recruit early since I don’t think you’ve been counting tier 4 as early game in these. Otherwise it looks good to me. Looking forward to more rankings / comparisons of whatever in the future, whether through tiermaker or some other format.
Looking forward to the throgg campain in early 2022.... also a hero tier list ( with traits ) would be really helpfull, never know what hero to recruit so i end up just getting some ramdom combinations.
Bit late to this party but the "my Fimir Warriors couldn't catch the enemy archers" gave me a laugh - that is the job you should be using the Ice Wolves for.
I find some of them much better than the tier list. Ice wolves, armoured skin wolves or axe throwers where very good for me even in the last difficulty mode.
Norscan units work well in semi blobs. Like Chariots taking the charge of a cav unit and skinwolves running in straight after them to help win the melee. Or Marauder berserkers inside of a unit of basic marauders so their rage mechanic has time to kick in. Just watch out for those AoE spells, dragon breath and the like.
There's actually only one thing wrong with Giants: their ridiculously low speed which doesn't even make sense. Even if a giant needs the same amount of time to make 1 step as a human would need to make 5 steps the giant is still faster because he covers 10 times as much ground per step compared to a human - and that's only when walking; a running giant would in fact be very fast. Giants in game should have about 70 - 90 speed.
I don't think they should be quite that fast, but definitely they should be at least around the same speed area as most other monsters so 50-70. Also they should be a tier 3 monster for all races since they are so easy to kill with ranged weapons
I remember berzerkers, javilin hunters and spears carrying me through my campaign, in the only warhammer campaighn i actually played all the way through, only ever got one mammoth and hardly used it.
The ice wolves being so low kinda caught me off guard. For a "hound" unit it is one of the best performing ones I know about and their frost attacks works great in synergy with slower but more hard hitting fast units like Skinwolves. I usually play on very hard or hard so it is not a "it performs good on normal".
Yeah...so I played one campaign normal difficulty for about 5 turns and have never played them again. I have got 3,000 hours worth of time playing Total War Warhammer 2 alone. But I remember seeing the crap settlements, looking at the build trees and then the whole thing where you're supposed to raze every settlement to the ground and was just like, "Nope." I think this tier ranking reinforces those same feeling incredibly well. This whole faction eats major crap. Like not just sucking on one pile of it with their mouth. No no no, Norsca pick up entire buckets full at a time and start gobbling it down like pigs at a trough, and then continue to ask for more.
I NEVER KNEW ABOUT THE SMALL/LARGE MARKER ON THE UNIT CARD. I have like 1200 hours and I never noticed. Don’t NEED it cuz you can pretty much guess, still nice to know tho
Funnily enough, in my very first WH:TW campaign in the first game, playing on normal difficulty, the Fimir warriors were the bane of my existence as the vampire counts. They absolutely obliterated anything I would throw at them and were an absolute nightmare to take down. I guess that is the one faction that they are super good against with their powerful melee, armor, and anti-large, despite being slow and vulnerable to missiles.
@@houndofculann1793 Honestly don´t remember if I even tried doing that, it´s been several years. Also not sure if the melee stats were the same for either back then. The Fimir were mostly crushing my grave guard that was making up the backbone of my armies lol.
The only way I managed to beat Norsca VH/VH was using mods that meant choas gates spawned armies that allied with me after beating Archaon so that the Good Tide would not just retake camps as easily, and then turning off supply lines.
Gotta disagree with the skin wolves. dunk on bretonnian cavalry with their bonus vs large, 75 speed allows for flanking and taking out missile units, and they are durable with regen. Belongs in the middle tier
This list is completely outdated. This was made for Warhammer 2 where the punishing melee cheats of the enemy would make most of the roster difficult to use. In Warhammer 3 this isn't the case so most of the units I called trash in this are actually quite viable.
building requirements also changed a lot.
I am playing a pretty fun campaign with Throgg, and looked up your tier list. would be worth a refresh.
I would also be interested what would you do against the chaos dwarves with Norsca in a stream.
Will there be new unit tierlist for Norsca?
There will probably be one, though Norsca is likely to have a rework soon(ish). I think Legend is waiting for that.
Hero tier list? Skill tier list? The possibilities are endless. What will Legend do next?
your mum
@@Bigl00z Ass-tier
Skill tiers could be very informative
Endless? You just mentioned 2 last options.
@@alexdobma4694 High hitpoints, but low speed and armor
Norsca i think we can just summarize with "Survive until you get mammoths."
If you're willing to finish campaign fast, That's the worst strategic suggestion from legend I've ever heard. I really appreciate his cautious ways in other races but i believe his norscan ways... Theyre not viable if you want a fast paced campaign
The only way you play norsca now is surviving from Kislev, Empire and Brettonia onslaught. Get war mammoth and get upkeep reduction stacks going, from building, kicking Archaon's ass, and sending 1 doomstack to capture tilea.
@@emanuelevitale5325 Legend keeps saying that fast expansion is a trap for legendary difficulty. I wonder if that has changed after the public order rework
@@yueqi7499 That's more because of upkeep. You need high tier settlements to sustain more armies/recruit better units. Expansion becomes pointless if you can't defend your settlements. Don't know about Norsca though, I never play them because I find the campaign mechanics very dull.
@@yueqi7499 i believe he takes into account the caution before everything because he never gets to late game cause he gets bored easily and the Livestream consensus grant him a pass against any late game boredom. But truth is if you're willing to keep playing the legend ways you're condemned to wait till turn 250-399 before watching the long campaign victory screen. I'm not saying you won't win. I'm saying it takes way more turns of grinding
"Let's look at what's wrong with Giants, apart from everything"
They are very good at absorving 1 to 3 round of enemy archer fire, after that itssss gone.
"Let's see what's wrong with the giants, besides the fact that they just are here." in a game
Beatsmen: let’s tech you how to handle giants.
I’d love to see a doomstack tier list. Take every unit that earned the doomstack tier, and rank them from ultimate doomstack to worst of the best.
Added a Bloated Corpse Doomstack as well for the Lols
of course the best of the best is ratling guns)
@Cuman Gaming Yeah except that was only a top 5, and there are far more than 5 units in the 'doomstack' category, and things change with time. I would actually be surprised if war mammoths are still the number 1 doomstack in the game today. Pretty sure sisters of averlorn can shit all over them. Maybe necrofex collosus too, not sure. That's why a modern tier list using tiermaker would be a really good thing. The old video is dated now. That's how updates work.
@Cuman Gaming And its been outdated for years....
WH2 is coming to an end, its time to make an up to date list because in WH3 we will get new factions and the old races wont be getting any love for a while (apart from norsca and chaos) so the new doomstack list would be valid for atleast a few years.
@@badgerbane sisters would get stomped by a mammoth doomstack. They struggle against single entity spam and there is no way sisters, even if focus firing, will drop more than 2-3 mammoths before they’re being trampled to a pulp. The mammoths are just too tanky and numerous in doomstack form.
Ah, the new beastmen
Yep
The only faction where recruiting Giants make sense
The monke tier list
@@HOGTO1000 **BONK** monke ever chosen
Honestly Norsca is the reason why I bought total war in the first place cause I loved the idea of fantasy viking. I hope they get their time in the sun
Yeah, I really hope they get a proper remake. Right now they are barely playable, but the problem is, Idk how to make them better. Just removing their upkeep and making a tomb kings 3.0 is just boring and uninovating. The main thing has to be to do something about the supply lines or boost their low tier unites to make them work better. Over all it is still a raider faction and it just sucks that you are raiding with fucking mammoths instead of infantry and so on. :/
@@axelmuller7946 they are chaos worshipping faction, Archaeon used to be a norscan warlord aswell.... they will get an update in WH3 for sure, most likely something related to which chaos god you decide to give favor the most, or maybe none of them... since they dont need to worship.
@@Otakahunt true, I also expect them to get a rework and most likely even before VC, because it would fit better. I will most likely play Norsca in W3, just because in W2 they make 0 Fun and having to fight Wintertooth and Bretonia in your Homeland at turn 20 is fucking too much with Rakarth and Kislev just waiting for the Moment to jump in. Would win it, just don't see the point in it. :/
@@axelmuller7946 Something that keeps you from being tethered to your settlements, I'd say. Herdstone-sized garrisons (which puts an even higher focus on sniping other Norscan faction leaders, instead of occupying territory), and Pirate/Hellebrone-style navies patrolling the waters, etc.
I think they are fun in camping. Maybe not on legendary, but on hard they are for me. Yes they are lacking compared to other factions, but they didn't get less fun to play as
war mammoths also have missile attack, and war shrine don't. This attack is not much, but over the course of prolonged battle it adds up. In regardless of tier and cost I would always pick war mammoths over war shrine ones.
They have the same upkeep actually (525 in this Legend's campaign).
I tend to grab 2 at most per army for the extra melee attack for the entire army. No reason to get a lot, but the buffs are nice.
Albion can make a difference when it comes to Fimir and Giants. The Ogham stones building chain allows you to recruit them at tier 3. I tend to prioritize getting rid of Rakarth anyway. Most of the time he is a liability rather than asset anyway.
You can also get them at tier three at Erengrad ( and +3 recruit ranks for them faction wide),
Although getting Erengrad to tier 3 is a load of work of cours.
@@aic7tube AFAIK that special building is only available if you start as Throgg. Sitll, a good source of early fimir.
@@benedeknagy8497 Does that even exist? Faction specific landmarks? I did not know, thought they were race specific
@@edwin5145 I only know about his one. It makes sense tho, that the Rocky Throne of Troll Country i only available for Throgg's faction.
@@edwin5145 Sure. Belegar has access to some unique building in K8P. Skarsnik and Queek as well if I am not mistaken
I really hope you can find more quality ideas for these tier list videos, these have been very enjoyable
its so weird to me how Bretonnia (a civilized agriculture/trade economy) has no supply lines while Norsca (a race that is almost a horde faction and is based on raiding for money) has to deal with supply lines. The head-canon of supply lines is supposed to be that there is a logistical inefficiency that is introduced from attempting to sort the needs (ammunition, equipment, replacement troops, and wages) of a larger military and transport them to the correct armies, which may be very far from each other and from the most developed parts of the empire. With Bretonnia, you can argue that because in lore they are much less centralized in their military planning than say the Empire or the Helves (each lord brings all their knights and each knight of the realm brings all the M-at-A and yeomen he can etc.), so there wouldn't be a bureaucracy of paymasters. But with Norsca it takes even less thought to see how they wouldn't have supply lines. Norsca, being vikings, don't pay wages at all. The payment is a share of the spoils, and they live off the land/sea or take enough with them for the duration of the invasion before they go home.
I think with Norsca it can be explained as every individual chieftain taking more of the loot for themselves. Similarly to how it is with Greenskins with "who's da boss"
Plus with Bretonnians, each army is funded by the lord themselves. They handle the logistics of the army, not the state
Man, Norsca was amazing in the month before Total Ham 2 came out
Both they and the warriors of chaos were surprisingly good in WH1. Then again, this was a game where infantry was king.
@@zenmastakilla What changed?
@@heitorpedrodegodoi5646 Ranged/Artillery got Buffed hardcore and Infantry became practically worthless if you properly cheese. No, not tactics...but actual cheese in manipulating based on the AI's limitations rather than battle tactics.
I wanna make a case for the Marauder Hunters. If you intend to destroy Couronne early, then the Marauder Hunters are an excellent unit, as one of these can kill multiple units of cavalry. They negate the shields of that high-tier cavalry, armor does not bother them and they don't instantly break when they get charged. It is also not true that they cannot arc their shots. Javelins have a lower arc, while the axes fly in a very steep arc and then drop down. Maybe you haven't givem them a fair chance yet?
Fully Agreed. Also the norscan ice warhound, the large variant, they are actually way more effective at Killing and harassing than the their smaller counterpart. Perfect against archery troops from the empire and even dwarfs. The normal werekin should actually be listed same as a good unit, as long as your micro is good enough to make them recover through regen. And there's a good amount of balanced armies needed unfortunately with norsca. And this includes usage of marauder champion as backbone. And legend is just not good at playing the balanced army ways because of how much addicted he is to easy to micro armies where he standardize the role of the whole army instead of having many specialized roles in the stack. So for him having 4-5 different units in an army is a nightmare per se. Which of course can work well... But norsca only gains reduced upkeep after turn 100 and that NOT acceptable to leave the empire and dwarves unchallenged till then. Because taking them out before confed have started is the very key to winning with norsca without spending days through grinding the mid late game.
@@emanuelevitale5325 I don't agree with everything. For example, Legend has proven sufficiently, that he can win with so called balanced armies. He does regularly in his disaster videos.
@@emanuelevitale5325 You could have made yourself sound just as stupid using far fewer words.
@@Bubbl3Bubbl3gum i see what you mean and i share your opinion on the fact that he can win with that.
He proved that enough. But it doesn't imply that he likes that. I noted a tendency of his to oversimplify excessively his army composition just in name of an easier time during the micro of the battle. There's always a good measure in everything. And i believe that this way of playing punishes the races with a necessity for a varied army.
The problem with hunter is not the arc, they are juste really unprecise in their shots. They are good at shooting in the clear or in the back of troops
Bit surprised frostbite didn't get a shoutout, especially on the wolves and chariots. -35% speed is very useful when chasing down units.
Yep, I always choose Ice wolves just for the frostbite ability.
@@jaklcide I find they're good for catch fast missile units that mammoths struggle with. But this is on normal, they probably lose to archers in melee on legendary.
I've done skin wolf and armored skin wolf doom stacks as Norsca and I found them very fun to use. They're relatively quick for a Norscan unit and they're anti large, which means you can gang up on the tougher units in the enemy army and take them down pretty easily.
They were absolute monsters in my
campaigns
I dont play legendary, but they where always really good in my games
Skin wolfs are soo good, I can't understand why he's shitting on them. they are the unit to use for taking down monsters in the campaign mechanic (at least before you get mammoths). Plus you usualy get the follower that boost them.
@@DanielsY2J probably because it is legendary difficulty he is judging them by
@@TheBarser yeah thats the difficulty I also usualy play with
I would argue that Marauder Berserkers are good, especially with all the upgrades you can get them quite early in the tech tree and with lord skills. They deal a ton of damage with frenzy + rage and are quite sturdy and resilient once they have reached the enemy lines.
When i did the achievement for very hard norscan campaign and had to go with normal battle difficulty to make up for the garbage economy. Berserkers at tier2 where probably the best melee unit ive ever experienced. They delete everything in their way
I usually only have armies of berserkers, skinwolves and javelins until I get mammoths and that works wonders
The normal difficulty does change the battle balance too much
@@emanuelevitale5325 you mean VH changes it too much...
Normal is the true experience since AI doesnt get any cheats so units perform the way they are meant to perform.
@@Otakahunt no
@@shibre9543 What do you mean no? How can you say handicapping yourself by giving the AI cheats is the true experience? Nothing against very hard but i consider it a challenge run not the default.
Despite being so weak right now Norsca is still one of my favorite factions.
The funny thing is that their roster is actually very good for what they are (rush faction), but their economy cripples them. Very few faction can beat high level norscan armies one on one, but almost every faction can field more armies than them.
I don't think they are weak, they are balanced for what they are, just so happens that the top dog factions from the second game are incredibly bonkers and good at everything. What they need the most is tuning to their economy, something that incentives the player to be aggressive, maybe make their units dirt cheap to maintain but their buildings more expensive so in order to get better units you have to raid the southlands.
I do like skinwolves/armores skinwolves. they are here to intercept cavalry (and in that case, up to you if you need speed or armor) or as real fast melee flanking units. Usually anti armor will have better stuff to shoot at than skinwolves anyway.
Also, the point of the ice wolves is their frostbite: they can slow fleeing enemies for other troops to catch them (so ice wolves pair greatly as cavalry hunters with armored skinwolves)
Can Skin Wolves actually beat even basic Empire Knights on VH battle difficulty? Never tried but have strong doubts TBH
@@alexeyalexandrov7583 think they do if they don't get charged at least (and with their speed they shouldn't).
Overall, I only saw armored skinwolves struggle when faced with elite cavalry (not shock cavalry, those get eaten alive). the key really is that they are reasonably beefy with regen, have some armor piercing, move fast, and are anti large all rolled into a convenient package. All these traits together makes them really good cavalry killers, and still useful in a role similar to cavalry themselves and decent monster killers. They are unvariably my fast moving unit of choice when i play Norsca (usually the armored kind with some ice wolves to help them catch what is faster than they are)
I'd like to see a trait tier list for generic lords / heroes. Not sure how you would do it since it can be race specific and it might be long.
Not like it matters for me. My RNG luck is crap.
"Let's look at what's wrong with giants, apart from EVERYTHING."
XD
I remember when Fimir would solo anything they came across. Good times
the end of the vod 31:00 made my day hahaha xD great work and again i love this series :D
A pack of heavily armored, chaos empowered warewolves are one of the coolest units in the game. They were always the key units in my balanced armies.
I didn't believe Legend when he said Norsa were awful to play, until I played them recently, OmG they are Awful. Their main land is a nightmare to get around, their finances are terrible, everybody hates you, the special abilities to the gods is pants, you can only take certain cities on the campaign map and when you do take them you can't defend them and units in general are cannon fodder. Funnily enough I had a easier time with Throgg than Manfred due to getting the Frost Wyrm and War Mammoth in less than 15 turns on vh / vh.
You just have to survive the early start, and you can quicky get a hold of all the norscan land. Build the rightsl buildings and your raiding armies will pretty much get free. You can totally bully the empire and bretonnia
I found their replenishment hardest to deal with, you don't have any post-battle way to replace casualties and so I found your forced to do raiding, and that's it. Which is fine if you want to be a nuisance to other people all game, less so if you actually want to take someone out
Plus global recruitment with Norsca takes so much longer than every other faction, meaning you HAVE to return to your settlements to replenish your forces if you lose a unit, and if you've not captured a nearby racial capital then good luck, coz you're stuck with basic level human units
Who needs an economy when you can just sack everyone else? Played in the red all game and kept myself going by sacking and raiding. Bleeding money all game but had like 80k in the bank so who cares.
my favourite faction just wish more was actually done with them
More tier lists would be great! I do enjoy listening to you talk about this game.
I have seen every tier list at least once, these are great videos, so educational
I just finished a Norsca campaign and MY GOD NEVER AGAIN. It was a slog and I was basically always losing money. The only thing that kept me going was just constantly sacking cities which meant it took me almost 300 turns to finish the campaign. Normally I can have one done in 140-170 turns.
It's all about the right choices in strategy, man. Can be done in 200, but you really need to know what you're doing. Also not the legend way.
It'd be great to have an updated version of this
Glad to see someone with a similar dream of grander.
Him: i never play as throgg and i don't like him
Me: I WILL EAT YOU!
Damm Legend! Now you have to "remake" all the other tier lists with this new ratings... the algorithm will love you even more ;)
I have pretty much the opposite viewpoint on Fimir with Greatweapons and Armored skinwolves. Fimir with greatweapons just delete single entities. Same for Armored skinwolves (who are squishier but faster, but generally performt he same anti-large role). They're really good at dealing with the enemies that your mammoths are the worst at dealing with. Use the mammoth to blunt the enemy attack, then just razor them up. Adding 4 of them will lower army costs (vs a pure mammoth stack) and make it more effective.
Surprised ice wolfs are do not recruit, been playing a vh/vh campaign and sending them around the flanks into missile infantry or skirmish cav they pretty quickly delete the unit with minimal casualties.
The last tier list you make better be a tier list of your tier lists
Norsca ingame: has difficulty raising and maintaining huge armies
Norsca in lore: raises a 10,000-man strong armies every other generation while living in a frozen wasteland
14:15 I actually like having 3-5 cards of ice wolves. They aren't good at dealing damage, but they are good at surrounding then chasing a clumped army of +5 ranged units away that are in skirmish mode. They can also harass routed enemies often until they shatter or completely die from the harassment. It is quite easy to make enemies flee due to many of their monsters and wild beasts that cause terror so I always use ice wolves to mop up the fleeting units. I thought you'd rank them higher honestly.
21:55 I have a love/hate relationship with skin wolves. They are anti large and youre usually using them to fight cavalry or artillery from the human race. Armored ones have increased survivability and can take some hits or be charged into. Armorless ones have to be held back until the cavalry commits or the artillery is left alone and then you can flank them. Depending on how well I do and how the AI performs on the campaign I might really need them if I am struggling or not need a single one if I am having an easy time (It is just better to have 19 skin wolf werekin heroes when you have an easy game. They get better stats and immortality. You can carefully select ones with good personal traits such as poison attacks, strider, or whatever you need. Theyre expensive to upkeep and get enough buildings for them so it's not wise to doomstack them if youre already struggling which is why I tend to love me my regular skin wolves and why I think they needed a higher scoring).
On mammoths. I believe that shooting eats at your vigour so shooting war mammoths will get tired sooner than non-shooting variants. Isn't that a factor to be considered?
Haha, the absolute shade thrown at Fimir in the last 10 seconds was glorious
I just started playing a few weeks ago and I love your videos, amazing content.
Skinwolves are amazing if you use them like flankers not front line units. There seriously the best unit norsca gets
I hope they rework Norsca. It is such a cool race and I have used a mod to give wulfric ship building which makes it so fun to play!
My absolute favourite faction to play on multiplayer battles love their rooster, love skin wolves ice wolf combo.Terrible in campaign.
I disagree, I think it's very fun because you can unite the whole north in the first 20-30 turn, then make alliance with the skaven then raid the shit out from the empire and other fractions in the south. You just have to keep the dark elves in neutral
Interesting, I was expecting the Champion units to be under "these are good" being only tier 3 and very good in melee compared to even tier 4 units of other factions. Tier 3 skin wolves should be under "you can make these work" IMO
The problem is that very hard battle difficulty punishes melee infantry to such an absurd degree. Enemy units all get bonuses to leadership, melee attack, melee defense and weapon strength, while all your units lose leadership. This is why strong single entities and good missile units are so important on very hard battle difficulty.
Marauder champions are good, but with the AI's cheats, you'll be going up against enemy artillery and powerful missiles by tier 3 when fighting the empire, or you'll be dealing when powerful Bretonnian knights, as they don't have to worry about negative mechanics like the peasant economy
It's a "little" different from tier lists (which are great so far!) but I would love to see you tackle each faction's optimal build and playstyle, like how to set up their economy, what army composition to go for at different stages of the campaign, and how to build their heroes/lords. that would be insane!
This is the only video that I didn't agreed with yet. Berserkers are definitely the best infantry unit early game. Also, Skin Wolfs are a great unit for messing up with enemies and having like 2-4 of them in the army helps a lot.
Aren't almost all melee infantry units dogshit when it comes to legendary difficulty? Why would it matter if it's the best melee infantry unit?
I genuinely thought the tier list would be:
S tier : Mammoths(the good type)
Trash tier : everything else including the lesser Mammoths
I just Modded the game for Norsca, so i could settle everywhere and played it tham on Very Hard.
It makes the game much more playable!
Legend about manticores: micro unit that can’t stay in our command.
Legend about feral mammoth: just watxh the world burn.
If you mix Fimir with Berserkers they will melt through a front line like you would not believe; unfortunately you will be fighting range heavy factions so that's not all that important.
Edit: I wish you could play as that norsca lord by Mazdamundi, just spend your time beating up lizards, Orcs and Vampires.
That is Skeggi
Thank you so much for this content. I always learn many things !!
I love how he always goes into why Giants are bad just so nobody starts to think they can make them work
Truth is in late game giants stack grants you a cheap way for autoresolving sieges. Which you tend to deal with a lot. Way better than other more expensive alternatives. Still. On manual battle they're a pain.
@@emanuelevitale5325 that’s actually great advice
@@emanuelevitale5325 In manual sieges, it's a nightmare to even get them to walk through the city gates.
The Ice Wolf Chariot would be soooo much better if the missile attack was 360 degree. The Surtha Ek doomstack would be really legit with that one change.
The Throg Ice Troll stack is a legit low tier Doomstack. I have never regretted running it in my Wulfrik campaign. In a lot of ways it's easier to use than the mammoth doomstack. I don't know how much credit you want to give that, but it's absolutely a good unit in that context.
As bad as the armored skin wolves are, it's even worse because you get the +1 hero capacity at tier 3, so you're usually building that building in a minor settlement anyway. So they're not even available unless you do something pretty inconvenient.
He doesnt consider faction/hero specific doomstacks. If you would do that goblins would be top tier with Grom :D But regardless, I agree, Throg ice trolls put the shivers in the ordertide.
Hope you're enjoying your break from streaming legend. Loving the content you're putting out
i believe the marauder hunters axethrowers are kinda like a one-two punch unit, whereas you have berserkers or champions glued behind them, let them throw their volley as the enemy units approach and then let the melee infantry charge right after, so you can make their shieldbreaker useful for your melee units
These are better, more helpful, tiers. Thanks Legend.
Great video as always. However one mention is if you get surtha ek you could doom stack chariots imo especially if you send him south and kill settra and get the 100% chariot weapon strenght buff. They are not the best doom stack but very fun nonetheless.
He had a video with this doomstack, that was pretty fun indeed
I really hope that Norsca gets a major rework/overhaul in Warhammer 3. I've always loved the aesthetic of Norsca but I need more incentive than that to go through the pain of playing them.
I love the catagories for Norsca here. So much more explanative than a,b,c,f, doomstack
Frost-Wyrm - If you going to not Doomstack, These are good, You can make these work - Legend 2021
You talked about Throg and the Warekin hero and how good/bad they are. I hate to make you rethink your series here but maybe including heroes and the legendary lords here would be good? Sometimes the heros/lords are what make a race/units work.
I have a suggestion for new tier lists. AI unit tier list, which units are the most dangerous/useful in the hands of the AI.
Rankings could go from easy to fight to avoid if fighting if possible.
one of the lowkey crippling things about norsca is that one of their main gimmicks is frostbite, which lets you rout a unit, chase it down, an then shatter it quickly. too bad your playing on legendary battle difficulty and all of the units are nearly unbreakable!! they don't care if they're stuck in melee with you because they will almost always trade up while you will trade down, so naturally your units will also break first, and by the time their units break it's barely worth running them down anyway because they're already practically dead. I geuss norsca could be strong against skaven since even with the buffs they can still be routed too bad most of your campaign will be spent fighting empire, brettonia, an maybe dark elves
I like the new list options. Feels better
Just crazy to me Norsca doesn't use a horde mechanic or something similar. 0 of the legendary lords build up a settlement in lore Throgg funnily enough being the closest while Wulfgar had aspirations at one point but absolutely does not. Also why is every campaign scenario negative in some way and happening all the time. How many times must I melt my armies bracers XD?
This is very outdated now, would love to see updates to these videos in general since immortal empires. Norscan roster and economy are much more balanced and Throgg kicks absolute ass. Throgg ice troll doomstack with a fimir sorceror is top tier now. Throggs trolls are superior to fimirs in every aspect thanks to their regen. Ice wolves are also far better than other cavs in my opinion. Marauders are still trash though.
The way I use horse master is I cycle charge units that go out of formation with like 3 horsemasters. You surround them and charge from all sides at the same time it just deletes most infantry units. Even higher tiered ones.
i've found that feral mammoths are a great way to make a strong auto-resolve army that can be manually piloted for even better results, with great ease.
i just stack them all in a big blob at the start, and throw them into the middle of the enemy army. they will all rampage and start chasing down any and all units that run away so it's basically zero micro needed. and they perform very well in battle. (at least on medium and hard battle difficulty, which is what i've played on with them) they're cheaper than the war mammoth and so are more easily spammed for your armies. i usually go with a couple of war mammoth doom-stacks and then just use feral mammoth spams as clean-up crews so that my doomstacks don't have to waste time running down fleeing armies and minor settlements.
amen on the fimir. god, i want to love them because they're stylistically interesting (like rock geese with arms lol) but they just ... don't do anything.
if something fights them, sure, a fimir can smack it up, but it's so tedious to arrange, and i just don't have a reason to do it when it's more effective to even use the skin wolves.
Small point about skinwolves/armoured skinwolves/ Norscan trolls
If you just own Konquata (Albion's capital) and Altdorf (Which you should be or else you gonna have a hard time breaking through late game empire) and throgg's monster recruit time reduction (which is global)
You can recruit normal norsca trolls, skinwolves and armoured skinwolves in one turn in global.
Doesn't really justify these units in standing armies but useful for popping out a emergency stack
Bro the thumbnail had me worried that all of their units were “you can make these work” and below
If the armored skin wolves is tier 4 you should probably put them under never recruit rather than only recruit early since I don’t think you’ve been counting tier 4 as early game in these. Otherwise it looks good to me. Looking forward to more rankings / comparisons of whatever in the future, whether through tiermaker or some other format.
I didn't know about the small/large icon on the unit card, and have been playing since day 1, lol.
"You can tell the difference because of entity and unit sizes on the unit card". WTF, thank you!
Click
Double click
Click and hold
Repeat with right
Hover
Do these to any menu and you will know the way.
I hope to see a building tier list at some point, I'm sure legend has some things to say on what should and shouldn't be built
I searched for a Norsca tier list yesterday in case you already made one. and here we are today. how did you know?
HOW DID YOU KNOW?
Looking forward to the throgg campain in early 2022.... also a hero tier list ( with traits ) would be really helpfull, never know what hero to recruit so i end up just getting some ramdom combinations.
In preorder DLC: norsca rework and Southern Realms
Bit late to this party but the "my Fimir Warriors couldn't catch the enemy archers" gave me a laugh - that is the job you should be using the Ice Wolves for.
Has he done Beastmen? If not, what after? Ranking spells within Lores? That might be very interesting.
I find some of them much better than the tier list. Ice wolves, armoured skin wolves or axe throwers where very good for me even in the last difficulty mode.
Sometimes I wonder what an easy difficulty tier list would look like but it's probably just one tier that's called "Yeah, why not"
Norscan units work well in semi blobs. Like Chariots taking the charge of a cav unit and skinwolves running in straight after them to help win the melee. Or Marauder berserkers inside of a unit of basic marauders so their rage mechanic has time to kick in. Just watch out for those AoE spells, dragon breath and the like.
There's actually only one thing wrong with Giants: their ridiculously low speed which doesn't even make sense. Even if a giant needs the same amount of time to make 1 step as a human would need to make 5 steps the giant is still faster because he covers 10 times as much ground per step compared to a human - and that's only when walking; a running giant would in fact be very fast. Giants in game should have about 70 - 90 speed.
I don't think they should be quite that fast, but definitely they should be at least around the same speed area as most other monsters so 50-70. Also they should be a tier 3 monster for all races since they are so easy to kill with ranged weapons
I remember berzerkers, javilin hunters and spears carrying me through my campaign, in the only warhammer campaighn i actually played all the way through, only ever got one mammoth and hardly used it.
i think of the marauder hunters as javelin being "archers" and the throwing axes are very short range "gun" units
Norsca and Chaos factions need to go the Beastman route with Giants, need to move them down to tier 3
firmir isent really used to catch achers tho. if you buff them with throgg. they super strong and can take down any monster other mele based unit.
The ice wolves being so low kinda caught me off guard.
For a "hound" unit it is one of the best performing ones I know about and their frost attacks works great in synergy with slower but more hard hitting fast units like Skinwolves.
I usually play on very hard or hard so it is not a "it performs good on normal".
Best doomstack tier list in the future maybe?
Yeah...so I played one campaign normal difficulty for about 5 turns and have never played them again. I have got 3,000 hours worth of time playing Total War Warhammer 2 alone. But I remember seeing the crap settlements, looking at the build trees and then the whole thing where you're supposed to raze every settlement to the ground and was just like, "Nope."
I think this tier ranking reinforces those same feeling incredibly well. This whole faction eats major crap. Like not just sucking on one pile of it with their mouth. No no no, Norsca pick up entire buckets full at a time and start gobbling it down like pigs at a trough, and then continue to ask for more.
I started to enjoy Norsca since i installed mods to make Chaos units recruitable as well, such as Hell Cannon and Chosen Ones...
Would be interesting to see a lord and hero tier list, maybe have a separate one for the LLs.
I NEVER KNEW ABOUT THE SMALL/LARGE MARKER ON THE UNIT CARD. I have like 1200 hours and I never noticed. Don’t NEED it cuz you can pretty much guess, still nice to know tho
Hero tier list or how to skill up Lords & heroes (for legendary difficulty) series next please.
Fimir warriors, Manticores and giants: Man had no mercy!
Mammoths: Only Mammoths!
Norsca is doing great!
Funnily enough, in my very first WH:TW campaign in the first game, playing on normal difficulty, the Fimir warriors were the bane of my existence as the vampire counts. They absolutely obliterated anything I would throw at them and were an absolute nightmare to take down. I guess that is the one faction that they are super good against with their powerful melee, armor, and anti-large, despite being slow and vulnerable to missiles.
Fimir have atrocious melee attack though so any VC hero or lord (except Necromancers) should wipe the floor with them
@@houndofculann1793 Honestly don´t remember if I even tried doing that, it´s been several years. Also not sure if the melee stats were the same for either back then. The Fimir were mostly crushing my grave guard that was making up the backbone of my armies lol.
@Legend, not Norsca related. But did you notice female glade lords give +30% range once recruited?
The only way I managed to beat Norsca VH/VH was using mods that meant choas gates spawned armies that allied with me after beating Archaon so that the Good Tide would not just retake camps as easily, and then turning off supply lines.
Gotta disagree with the skin wolves. dunk on bretonnian cavalry with their bonus vs large, 75 speed allows for flanking and taking out missile units, and they are durable with regen. Belongs in the middle tier