Legend, you think now this dlc worth? I still can’t accept it. Is like buying a mustang without engine and gear; after a year of complain they finally install back the engineer and gear for you. This how I feel, the content is barely enough.
I'd like to add that the Frost Wyrms are also bugged in more ways that one. Firstly, they don't have the Wounds trait for being an SEM. You might think this is a good thing, but it doesn't matter because of the next bug. Secondly, its attack animations are bugged. I'm pretty sure they are not actually damaging many of the units that they are hitting with their animations. I checked to see one's progress today and it was only killing one unit per attack. Check out some of the testing videos online to see what I'm talking about. Their charge attacks seem to work and they were only able to beat Steam Tanks, from what I've seen.
On the one hand, the number of entities hit by splash attacks is just one table entry so it should be really fast to fix. Assuming that’s the issue but it seems like the most likely. On the other hand, it’s CA. Simple 5 second table fixes some times take them almost a year
Something very important considering the Tzar gard guilding: you need to build it to unlock the Golden Knight which gives you another incentive to build the building in the first place.
Note that Katarin can give stalk to snow leopards as a lord skill. Stalking snow leopards are shit individually but if you have a whole pack of stalking speed 100 single entities that are stupidly agile then you can hit and run just about anything. Also, let's remember that anti-infantry really isn't that big a priority for Katarin's army, since she herself is stupidly good versus infantry.
She is so good in fact that once there is only infantry left she can basically just solo the entire enemy army by just charging through with her sled. It's awesome, but I do think her mass/acceleration will get nerfed soonish.
And there's an arcane item that turns the character into a mortis engine. And there's that finger bone that gives regen. So what you get is a mortis engine chariot with regen that punts infantry into the next county while also being a very decent spellcaster.
Indeed. But the Ice Guard doomstack for Katarin for half the cost is way too good. I'd say the Leopard stalking squad is a nice addition to her army until you get access to the Ice Guard units. Then go full Girl power with the Tzarina XD By then, move all the leopards to another army and send them to kill some ogres, because they shred Ogres to pieces :D
Don't forget she buffs their speed too, 120 speed stalk leopards are pretty good at deleting artillery and large stuff in group. I used to not bother with them but they are very cost effective to have a small group in her army.
I personally only disagree with armored cossars placing. These guys definetily exceeded my expectations. With different buffs they can have better melee stats than chaos warriors. They have silver shields, so they can tank a lot of missiles. They are amasing line holders for their price. They also receive all missile buffs from the tech, end up with 12 AP and 18 regular damage per shot. And trust me, it is a very good addition, many times in my campaign i saw them reducing to half health of charging enemy unit with low to mid armor. I always have 4 of them in my regular balanced armies in mid and late game
Eh. As line holders they suffer from the same problem Kossars do though: they are 90 man "ranged" units and have a correspondingly lower total HP pool than typical 120 man units like Kislevite Warriors. They're definitely not bad line holders, but their longevity probably isn't as good as it could have been.
@@berrywarmer11 Armored cossars have 100 man, not 90. Also they have only 200 hp less than warriors which mean they have 82 vs 70 hp per entity. Tzar guard is definitely better in mele but that short ranged pistols can do a lot of damage, which is why I prefer armored cossars over tzar guard.
I personally never replace armored Kossars with Tzar guard if the Kossars have cheverons, not only do they hold the line well but the usually able to do solid damage before lines meet.
@@Shadow.24772 Legendary / Very Hard battles, max enemy buffs. Maybe my chaos warriors in my chaos campaigns could be stronger (but not that much), but enemy chaos warriors in my Kislev campaigns have lower shown stats. However, unit cards don't apply that ai modifier. So maybe in fact they are stronger, but this is true for any other unit
Happy to see Streltsi gain a rank, they've really become the backbone of my late game armies. The upgrades in tech and ice sheet makes them almost not require a frontline and they become the closest Wh3 has to line infantry.
@@olle3308 agree with you both. They've always been my favourite Kislev Unit, once I realised how much more convenient they were than Ice Guard by the time the game is won.
yep, currently running several stretsi doomstacks and they destroy any chaos/norsca armies, with the red line upgrades they literally dont need a frontline
thats the great part about these tier lists. they're useful to players who are new/learning the game so long as there isn't much balance changes. legend mentioned in his stream recently that he's reluctant to doing tier lists because the previous videos didnt perform so well
One advantage of the Frost wyrm is that it provides siege attacked at tier 3, which is the earliest you can get it. So putting one in your non LL-led army will allow you to fight sieges in one turn in another front if needed.
Only unit placement i disagree with is Horse Archers. Now with a Drzuhina lord they dish out really good damage. They are super fast and get a lotof benefits from tech tree. Also really fun to use. Solid B tier imo.
Simply isn't worth the building slot, however. It's a waste of a building slot, short of the rare 4-settlement province where you might have the spot in a minor settlement. That can be useful as a 1-off army (maybe).
@@saltedllama2759 Its not worth the building slot if you're also going for armoured kossars with the barracks. Just a different playstyle that revolves around cavalry and the cavalry building. The druzhina just makes it much more viable than it used to be.
Sucks to see Tzar Guard drop a tier. You get them when building Kislev's unique Bokha palace chain which is definitely a must have building for its Ice Guard upkeep reduction so I don't view them as inconvenient to recruit at all.
While I agree, I would also argue that they don't fit that well with Kislevs usual hybrid shooting style. Works great with a melee only Boris army thou.
@@Phoenix-sc6di I'd much rather have a unit with the staying power of Ironbreakers than a unit with a rinky dink ranged attack and mediocre melee capabilities. I am a firm believer in specialization over generalization.
@@ordohereticus5530 Armoured kossars aren't there to hold the line imo (at least I don't use them for that). They will beat 1v1 pretty much every archer in the game including sisters. They are the ultimate 'specialised' ranged unit killing ranged unit. They just have the upshot of having a killer charge when/if they run out of ammo. Tzar guard are good but by the time you have access to them you can usually already recruit ice guard and they're pretty much obsolete. Plus bulky melee units just kinda suck imo. Boring as all hell.
@@ordohereticus5530 Most of Kislevs Hybrid Unit specialze in one side of the coin, but can still perform on the other. Streltsi for example are mostly fully functioning gun units that can still fight in melee. Given the nature of Ice Magic and it's kiting potential, having ranged capabilities on your frontline will decimate most foes to the point where they are quite easy to kill in melee even with subpar melee strength. I do like to have 2-4 units of tzar guard in some armies to stall a flank or chokepoint, but there are better races for such a playstyle. Btw, Ironbreakers do have ranged power as well. Your idea of absolute specialisation would be more fitting towards, say, chosen of slaanesh with whips, who can hold and do basically nothing else.
@@GCOSBenbow I play a far more defensive style. I would never in a thousand years try and use armored kossars to duel enemy ranged units. I view and use them as Ironbreakers. They expend their ammo softening the oncoming enemy before holding them in melee, allowing my streltsi and co. to deal the actual damage.
I really like the new additions to the kislev roster. Halberds are really good early game and kinda turned kislev into a real faction for the first 15 turns to be honest. But my favorite thing with the patch was katarins sled, that thing is just so silly, it never gets stuck and runs through chosen halberds like its nothing. To add, thing i like about streltsi is i can have 2 streltsi in my army just to help to focus fire high value units. Its a unit that you don't need to spam and can mix small amounts between your archers to kill big baddies.
Katarin’s sled is disgustingly good. She just bullies any infantry she fights. Put a banner of speed on her and she just runs down anything in the game. It’s also bugged in such a way that the center of mass for the unit makes it hard for enemy single entities to hit her while she’s routing and she still hits back while she is.
Little Grom has a surprisingly high armor alongside those range boosts, especially thanks to the boosts from the skill tree. So using them as this slow moving chariot once the melee grind begins has saved me multiple times and made this unit a staple to almost every army I make. Seeing it in such a high position just warms my heart.
I would consider kostaltyn and katarin ability to recruit tzar guard from landmarks as semi negator to your argument that they are incovinient to recruit,since that is half of kislevs factions.
@@michaelfetter4541 Legend said that the building they are recruited from is not high priority and that is why it is not very convenient, but the landmarks are buildings that you want to build.
@@vojislavjovanovic6596 The Katarin one I agree. I always build that one but more for the early ice guard glaives. The Kostaltyn one isn't needed to me. It's in a minor settlement that gets constantly attacked by Norsca. And it's expensive for just a couple extra ranks on tzar guard.
Regarding ostankya units and similar scenarios, would be good to have a seperate section at the end of the video where you cover faction specific units briefly.
Video idea, army composition/building armies for early mid and late game. In an easy to understand format similarly to the tierlist where you can drag and drop units into the army, then ofcourse reasoning around strengths/weaknesses and how to deal with different enemies. I think it would be really insightful even as a fairly experienced player!
One important note for the Tzar Guard and Gryphon Legion is that there's also a landmark building at Castle Alexandronov (Kostaltyn's Summer retreat) that allows for their recruitment at a tier 3 minor settlement.
It's actually quite funny how different single player meta is from multiplayer meta. The moment when both agree, we know a unit is definitely OP, which in this case is Little grom. Although I don't agree on ALL SP rankings as well, I love the tierlists as it gives other perspective to already set opinion, keep doing it 💪
Note on gryphon legion. In a kostaltyn campaign because you start at castle alexandronov it's very easy to build Njevski's citadel, a unique building that allows recruitment of gryphon legion at tier 3 (as well as tzar guard) which can make using gryphon legion more viable in that specific scenario.
Kislevite warrior is s tier IMHO. The they have the same meele def as darvi warriors and insane AP for t0 unit thus they punch way above their weight group. And they are just dirt cheap...like insanely so. Also with this patch the gryphon legion is pretty insane since the update.
I love how Legend is unafraid to admit to a change of mind, or simply to change it. I've always loved the Streltsi, precisely for the reasons stated here. Legend did not like them at launch, and now accepts their quality. As usual, super list.
Very informative video, though I personally would like it if you put unit cards somewhere on the screen when talking about them. Seeing numbers helps me visualize the units better for some weird reason.
I've found little groms really effective at sniping enemy lords as they approach, they are super accurate and said accuracy can by boosted with a tempest witch.
Although it may seem like a cheap copy, I think Kislev could benefit from a hero similar to a paladin or empire captain, who can be recruited from the same building as the Tsar Guard. Tsar guard captain?
I don't know if making it tier zero is enough to make it C tier. Legend said that most of the starting enemies around you don't have units that are vulnerable to light cav.
@@manopeace9175The AI is always vulnerable to fast light cav. Peeling off one, two or even three units while the enemy's main force advances is great for the early game. Plus, they help run things down.
Really nice list and as a someone who plays Kislev a lot I mostly agree with this list. Only thing I would disagree with is the horse archer unit. Early game that unit is a A tier unit especially with a Druzhina lord on a horse. They are not the best unit in terms of pure stats, but they add so much utility. They are excellent at baiting armies to attack your if they try to take a defensive position, you can make half the enemy army chase you around the map making the main army deal with the enemy in small waves, they are great at snipping high value single/low unit targets like Mammoths, Throt or even Archaeon if you get them to chase you while also keeping them out of combat, when they run out of ammo they are still decent in Melee to kill ranged infantry, artillery, rear charges to break the enemy or chase down fleeing units. Best of all they are really cheap with low global recruitment time to recruit so you only need recruitment 1 building.
Legend, I thought for a long time about how to make total war even more interesting and this idea came to me - what if we limit the number of units that can be hired in one building? For example, high elves - 1 building for hiring dragons, tier 5 - which would make it possible to hire and “maintain” 2-3 high dragons. And of course, strengthen them significantly - so that the dragon would scatter 2-3 infantry units of a smaller tier. Do the same for all other units, well, except for tier 1 - they can be hired without restrictions on numbers. This idea is because of doom stacks - this is a really crazy concept when you can hire an unlimited number of the strongest units with 1 building. Plus, this will diversify the game - it will be necessary to use mixed armies, there will be more sense in capturing new territories, high-tier units will really stand out and seriously influence the battlefield.Of course, it will still be possible to collect a doom stack - but using the example of high dragons, you will need 6-9 capital settlements of the 5th level. What do you think about this idea? Or maybe I'm not the first and someone has already made a similar mod? Thanks for your content!
@andsusansucks But the thing is that I don’t like the faction itself))) Plus I would like this approach to be for all factions - otherwise the Tomb Kings look crippled against their background))
@@legionerer You didn't spoil anything - thank you very much! Now I’ll check out these mods - although they are not exactly what I wanted - there is no strengthening of top units. But it’s still much more interesting - thank you!
Kislev have access to Dazh's Brazier that is basically aoe hunger so healing is not really that much problem even after Druzina debug Or you can even use Lore of Hag for healing
For thematic reasons I assume. It's an elemental incarnate, it doesn't run away since it can't feel fear, but it doesn't really die either so it starts vanishing once the magic that keeps it together weakens.
The best thing about comparing the newer tier lists with the ones from WH2 is to see how much better melee infantry has gotten, especially for certain factions.
I only diasgree with Armored Kossars placement, should be A-tier cause their silver shields and ranged weapons are extremely valuable especially with tech tree buffs. Yes the building is inconvenient but I usually get them through the landmark anyways or if I'm lucky through a captured settlement that already had that military building built.
Akashina with new Kislev lord is so OP, 47 missile damage, require tier 2 building and 1 turn recruitment make them cheap doomstack. And the LL hag can give them snipe also
Akshina ambusher still has more ap damage than ice guard lol. Also they only take 1 turn to recruit, and once you build a t3 landmark at praag(turn 30-ish) you can globally recruit them in 1 turn, and the new lord boost them as well, and you're gonna get the building anyway for the hero, so I think they're still a S-tier unit.
I'm quite fond of using the Frost Wyrms to just barrel into the enemy and keep them down for enough time to get my Streltsi and Ice Guard in position, or to blob up infantry for a cavalry charge or a spell. I have a slight weakness for really fast monstrous ground units. The Skaven giant mole rat(can't arse myself to look up what it's actually called) is a bit of the same. They don't necessarily punch the hardest, or take the biggest punches themselves, but they will be where I want them when I want them to be there, and are far easier to withdraw than other units I might stick in similar roles.
I think kislev's shock cavalry options are actually great if you micro them. Glorious charge+fear+flanking allows to rout units very quickly and deal enormous damage
If you solely take their battlefield performance into account, war sleds are definitely incredible. The problem with them is their campaign map performance is hot garbage. Every time I use them, I have to fight nearly 100% of my battles because their autoresolve is so trash. Additionally, losing even a single hp from attrition or any other source drops their count from 4 models to 3. You'll see a 99% hp war sled with 3 models, which is equivalent to making them 75% on the battlefield. War sleds are one of the units in this game that autoresolve treats like steaming garbage and having to fighting 99% of the battles is so boring and tedious, especially when they're obviously easy wins. I even have times when autoresolve says it nukes nothing, but nukes sleds anyways. Game does the same thing with units like Witch Elves and CA just doesn't fix it.
How about a ranking for Historical battles throughout the games (like challenging or playabilty or just the way it was brought to life in the games) would love to see it ^.^
Also the Golden Knight helps boost both Tzar Guard and Ice Guard to make them better thru Melee boost and exp gain so putting it with a doom stack makes them stronger.
Honestly, the Winged Lancers are pretty strong and punch above their weight, while the Gryphon Legion is pretty underwhelming comparing the recrutiment (time and cost) and unit tier they are in.
Tzar guard is more convenient especially if you're playing Katarin specifically because Kislev (The City not Faction) itself has unique building Bokha Palace that connect from Tzar Guard recruitment to Ice Guard thus combining 2 building into one which is very efficient not to mention upkeep reduction bonus for Ice Guard so if there's one place to build it then I would think it would be in Kislev
I would say that one singular unit of dervishes to chase down routing foes is quite useful - not worth a building slot of course, but if I can recruit one in a freshly conquered city or the like, before getting better cav, I usually do.
I think the new lord of Hag actually help snow leopard stack quite a bit. Especially taking advantage of the leopard’s small size to use the breath spell to heal your entire army. There’s also a spell that does a lot of damage to single entity if enemy have a lot of small size single entity.
A snow leopard doomstack with 3 patriarchs for group healing is amazingly cost effective, even outside of going against ogres. Singly they aren't fantastic but a group of them fighting in a blob can take just about anything, even infantry masses (albeit slowly). Having a caster lord to help thin out infantry and you've got a fantastic and cheap army from T3 onward.
Kislevite Warriors with a Druzhina Lord who has "Speaks to the Forest", which is currently bugged, are pretty damn good in the early/mid game. Pretty sure CA will fix this very fast, like all fun stuff.
To be fair, regen for the whole army legit trivializes the campaign if you use it. But the fun police always works magnitudes faster than fixing other bugs, or worse, animation issues...
Regen is almost as good as having 60% extra health or whatever the base regen cap is. For balance of power calculation it is actually better since it isn't accounted for.
If you play Catharin you can quickly build that unique building in Kislev (that you want to build anyway) and then Global Recruit Tzar Guard for the rest of the campaign. I just finished a Catharin-campaign and I didn't build that millitary building for Tzar Guard even once (well I did, but only for the Golden Knight, then I instantly demolished it.) I'd put Tzar Guard with Shield in A-tier. They're not that inconvinient to build and they hold the line better than anything.
I absolutely agree. I still don't understand why players are so harshly punished for even attempting to build more diverse armies through the early to midgame. Especially since battles are the most fun in the early and midgame when they can still have some high stakes. Most of the time I also just fall back into spamming easy to recruit units, and by the time I'm comfortable building most types of barracks and diversifying my armies, the campaign usually got boring already. Giving all factions more options to recruit more unit types without too much investment, would make early game battles so much more fun and interesting, as you yourself can recruit more than just archer spams without nuking your entire economy, and don't run into stack after stack of half spearmen and half archers by the AI.
revisiting this just now I am looking forward to the updated unit tier lists for Nurgle, Empire and Dwards after Thrones of DELAY There is a lot to unpack there, I think especially for the dwarfs who changed a lot
Boris has a lord trait that gives regen to elemental bears. I never give him elemental bears because his warbear stack with a couple patriarchs goes so hard, but something to consider if the druzhina bug is in question.
In my experience the griffin legion cover a different nieche than the warbears. When fighting malus on the north, war bear rider take for ever to kill darkshards or shades, and because dark elves spam those guys, not killing them fast enough is a very big problem. But a single unit of Griffin legion destroys them in seconds, they are SO much better at kiling infantry its impressive, I would put them at A tier defenetly
They are a good unit, but I'd argue their is a good reason for the enthusiasm around them. What they bring early game is a game changer. Early kislev army are way more balanced and vastly more powerful. They are SS tier for 10-15 turns.
My biggest issue playing Mama O in Realms of Chaos is a lack of forests. A lot of maps are too open to capitalize on the thing in the woods forest units (and some of those quest battles are rough without artillery). IDK if shes better in IE
Dervishes and Horse Archers are definitely not excellent units, but I find that if you have a few of them they do an ok job of clearing enemy cavalry and dogs. While those units aren't that threatening it kind of clears up the field a bit and I can use them to get the enemy to charge at my defensive line. Cavalry in general work most effectively when working together, so while one unit won't always win a fight, you can beat tougher enemies by surrounding them with several.
Things in the Woods and Incarnate Elementals can easily be given stalk in any army by a fairly low level Hag Witch, making them some of the most useful monsters in the game imo.
I been playing almost exclusively kislev for about 80 hours. I confederated a unit that had like 10 kislev warrior units and I never saw then before and thought they were something special and distributed a few to each army. Never saw em again. Now I know where to get em.
I feel that having a tier list like this where there isn't one tier dominanting above all others is really good. I agree with a lot of the placements here, and understand some of the others, so I feel this roster is pretty good.
I really love having 2-3 frost dragons in my early game cheap armies. The fact that they’re so easy to recruit should almost be enough to push them up a tier. And in my experience frost dragons preformed more than adequately. If you’re also in a pinch and have one turn to globally recruit the best units possible, I’d rather get three frost dragons than three ice guards.
I'd like Akshinas to get a slight reduction in upkeep cost. They're better than kossars, but not 2x the upkeep cost's worth of good IMO. I imagine it was worth it back when they had AP, but I didn't play it back when SoC was worse (and more than $20USD; found a deal for it to get it for $20 for me).
For heavy war sleds they do also have more mass than light war sleds I believe, doesn't make them much better but it does allow them to perform a little better against infantry (not that kislev needs much more anti infnatry)
A bit late, but a use case for the starting snow leopard is to fight mounted Norse etc. heroes/lords. It is kind of a "duelist" in that way, and its like, what you actually have early on. Just dont have the "duel" be fair.
I think it'd be good if Ice Witches and Frost Maidens could get a skill that gives them an ability to heal ice creatures like the Elemental Bear and Frost Wyrms
the elemental encarnates can be deathstacked better than you give them credit for. The new wind of hags healing is more than good enough. and if you disagree. simply add another hag to the army. The biggest issue with the healing is the cooldown afterall.
I think the Frost Wyrm is bugged at the moment because it's underperforming against T1 human swordsmen. Just one group of them can take down a wyrm while losing very little. So something is wrong there. But I find the two standard melee and short ranged weapon units to be really good. Not only can they dish out a lot of damage later on in the game but they hold the line so damn well. High morale, shields and decent attack makes them pretty good. They are also not that expensive either. So when an enemy is charging in, they will be able to fire at them once or twice and it weakens the enemy to the point where your unit has the advantage. It makes a difference. As for Little Grom. The only issue I have with it, is that it doesn't have so much ammo. But otherwise it has great range and can't be easily wiped out by enemy spells or spawns. I don't have the DLC so I might didn't get the new lord. Still I use them for sieges where I need to take down towers. But a 3 pack of 4 cannons do a better job from other factions due to having much more ammo.
For me it was always kinda sad how the game screws up the cavalry, especially in Kislev's case. In WH lore Kislevite and Bretonian cavalry units are the best in the old world. In the game all of the cavalry is basically outclassed by other units because of the game mechanics.
Cav perform just fine, they are a high effort high return unit. Infantry will mostly do fine even if you forget them in the thick of it for minutes, cavalry will be long gone if you so much as look away for a second. But with proper micro, cavalry will do a lot of heavy lifting, especially against enemies with particularly dangerous high value units, artillery or other range.
I have a question regarding the Kossovite Dervishes. Since post-battle rewards are affected by the number of kills you get, wouldn't it be a good idea to have one or two Dervishes in the army to run down routing units to boost to amount of gold and experience you get post-battle?
What i woudl change: Lepard D - 3k hp is a joke, they die in secounds and arent even that good against large units. Bear either C/D - I agree with your arguments and dont understand its A tier placement. Frostwyrm A - The earlist Siegeattacker you can get. Derwisch B - Very priceeffizient and do a lot of dmg if you ask me. Grom A - Decent unit, imporantant for Kisliv but you get them pretty late. Tzaar with Sword C - You usually dont need them and they are very expensive. The better kossars A - Big early frontline upgrade.
I think that Things in the Woods should be higher than B tier. They are very fast, they have pretty small models and have magical attacks + loads of armor piercing. On top of that, they have 24 entities in unit rather than the usual 16. Probably one of the best anti-infantry melee unit currently in the game.
Kislevite Warriors have a hidden attack speed of 4.4 seconds, one of the fastest in the game. While the Empire halberdiers have an attack speed of 5.6 seconds, one of the slowest. So despite the slightly lower stats, Kislevite Warriors are in fact equivalent to the Empire halberdiers.
All melee swing timers are normalized. The attack delay value is just the extra time added on top of the animation to normalize melee swing timers between units. I'm not saying that some unit can't have a higher than average swing rate but usually it's balanced around one swing per model per 10 seconds.
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Balls
Legend, you think now this dlc worth? I still can’t accept it. Is like buying a mustang without engine and gear; after a year of complain they finally install back the engineer and gear for you.
This how I feel, the content is barely enough.
I spent £180 on manscaped 5 months ago. I recommend 👌
Funny how you look much more like me shaving your beard in close view than any of the models in the ads, feels way more realistic 😂
Tier list video of tier list videos
I'd like to add that the Frost Wyrms are also bugged in more ways that one.
Firstly, they don't have the Wounds trait for being an SEM. You might think this is a good thing, but it doesn't matter because of the next bug.
Secondly, its attack animations are bugged. I'm pretty sure they are not actually damaging many of the units that they are hitting with their animations. I checked to see one's progress today and it was only killing one unit per attack. Check out some of the testing videos online to see what I'm talking about. Their charge attacks seem to work and they were only able to beat Steam Tanks, from what I've seen.
Bugged for sure. Human Boy has it fighting a Mutant Rat Ogre, and rhe F. Wyrm just walks into it, and takes 10 attacks in the face haha.
Order two Frost Wyrms to attack a gate lol
On the one hand, the number of entities hit by splash attacks is just one table entry so it should be really fast to fix. Assuming that’s the issue but it seems like the most likely.
On the other hand, it’s CA. Simple 5 second table fixes some times take them almost a year
Idea for a vid: tier list for stacks, with S tier containing the best doomstacks, and F tier containing the Grail Reliquae.
You mean SS+ for Gray Reliquae.
up up
@@DarkSpells87instructions misunderstood I now have an army of grey seers.
Hasn't Legend said multiple times that doomstacks are way less of a thing in tww3? Feels like you're living in tww2 my guy.
@@RudgerBlake you must be rly fun at parties
Something very important considering the Tzar gard guilding: you need to build it to unlock the Golden Knight which gives you another incentive to build the building in the first place.
Golden knight Op in multiplayer but not that great in campaign I think I remember legend giving her a 6/10
@@Weberkooks still a very handy hero to have and another incentive to build the tzar guard building (+ she buffs Tzar and Iceguard quite a bit)
Note that Katarin can give stalk to snow leopards as a lord skill. Stalking snow leopards are shit individually but if you have a whole pack of stalking speed 100 single entities that are stupidly agile then you can hit and run just about anything. Also, let's remember that anti-infantry really isn't that big a priority for Katarin's army, since she herself is stupidly good versus infantry.
She is so good in fact that once there is only infantry left she can basically just solo the entire enemy army by just charging through with her sled. It's awesome, but I do think her mass/acceleration will get nerfed soonish.
Don't forget that Kislev has that one spell that rips heavy infantry to sherds while not dealing damage to own units.
And there's an arcane item that turns the character into a mortis engine. And there's that finger bone that gives regen. So what you get is a mortis engine chariot with regen that punts infantry into the next county while also being a very decent spellcaster.
Indeed. But the Ice Guard doomstack for Katarin for half the cost is way too good. I'd say the Leopard stalking squad is a nice addition to her army until you get access to the Ice Guard units. Then go full Girl power with the Tzarina XD
By then, move all the leopards to another army and send them to kill some ogres, because they shred Ogres to pieces :D
Don't forget she buffs their speed too, 120 speed stalk leopards are pretty good at deleting artillery and large stuff in group. I used to not bother with them but they are very cost effective to have a small group in her army.
I personally only disagree with armored cossars placing. These guys definetily exceeded my expectations. With different buffs they can have better melee stats than chaos warriors. They have silver shields, so they can tank a lot of missiles. They are amasing line holders for their price. They also receive all missile buffs from the tech, end up with 12 AP and 18 regular damage per shot. And trust me, it is a very good addition, many times in my campaign i saw them reducing to half health of charging enemy unit with low to mid armor. I always have 4 of them in my regular balanced armies in mid and late game
Eh. As line holders they suffer from the same problem Kossars do though: they are 90 man "ranged" units and have a correspondingly lower total HP pool than typical 120 man units like Kislevite Warriors. They're definitely not bad line holders, but their longevity probably isn't as good as it could have been.
@@berrywarmer11 Armored cossars have 100 man, not 90. Also they have only 200 hp less than warriors which mean they have 82 vs 70 hp per entity. Tzar guard is definitely better in mele but that short ranged pistols can do a lot of damage, which is why I prefer armored cossars over tzar guard.
I personally never replace armored Kossars with Tzar guard if the Kossars have cheverons, not only do they hold the line well but the usually able to do solid damage before lines meet.
@tyoshi5590 better melee stats the Chaos warriors?? like, on normal difficulty/ PvP? or Legendary difficulty?
@@Shadow.24772 Legendary / Very Hard battles, max enemy buffs. Maybe my chaos warriors in my chaos campaigns could be stronger (but not that much), but enemy chaos warriors in my Kislev campaigns have lower shown stats. However, unit cards don't apply that ai modifier. So maybe in fact they are stronger, but this is true for any other unit
Happy to see Streltsi gain a rank, they've really become the backbone of my late game armies. The upgrades in tech and ice sheet makes them almost not require a frontline and they become the closest Wh3 has to line infantry.
Yeah I agree. I love the Streltsi right now.
@@olle3308 agree with you both. They've always been my favourite Kislev Unit, once I realised how much more convenient they were than Ice Guard by the time the game is won.
yep, currently running several stretsi doomstacks and they destroy any chaos/norsca armies, with the red line upgrades they literally dont need a frontline
Absolutely love your tierlists. Saw oldest onw from your channel, and now I ise them as guidebook to my game. Thank you!
thats the great part about these tier lists. they're useful to players who are new/learning the game so long as there isn't much balance changes. legend mentioned in his stream recently that he's reluctant to doing tier lists because the previous videos didnt perform so well
One advantage of the Frost wyrm is that it provides siege attacked at tier 3, which is the earliest you can get it. So putting one in your non LL-led army will allow you to fight sieges in one turn in another front if needed.
Only unit placement i disagree with is Horse Archers. Now with a Drzuhina lord they dish out really good damage. They are super fast and get a lotof benefits from tech tree.
Also really fun to use. Solid B tier imo.
Good as reinforcement?
Simply isn't worth the building slot, however. It's a waste of a building slot, short of the rare 4-settlement province where you might have the spot in a minor settlement. That can be useful as a 1-off army (maybe).
@@saltedllama2759 Its not worth the building slot if you're also going for armoured kossars with the barracks. Just a different playstyle that revolves around cavalry and the cavalry building.
The druzhina just makes it much more viable than it used to be.
@@saltedllama2759 go see how Enticity uses cavalry. He uses them without infantry and is great. But then, he's Enticity.
Are you really playing Kislev if you aren't spamming Mongol Stacks of Horse Archers and Winged Hussars?
Sucks to see Tzar Guard drop a tier. You get them when building Kislev's unique Bokha palace chain which is definitely a must have building for its Ice Guard upkeep reduction so I don't view them as inconvenient to recruit at all.
While I agree, I would also argue that they don't fit that well with Kislevs usual hybrid shooting style. Works great with a melee only Boris army thou.
@@Phoenix-sc6di I'd much rather have a unit with the staying power of Ironbreakers than a unit with a rinky dink ranged attack and mediocre melee capabilities. I am a firm believer in specialization over generalization.
@@ordohereticus5530 Armoured kossars aren't there to hold the line imo (at least I don't use them for that). They will beat 1v1 pretty much every archer in the game including sisters. They are the ultimate 'specialised' ranged unit killing ranged unit. They just have the upshot of having a killer charge when/if they run out of ammo.
Tzar guard are good but by the time you have access to them you can usually already recruit ice guard and they're pretty much obsolete.
Plus bulky melee units just kinda suck imo. Boring as all hell.
@@ordohereticus5530 Most of Kislevs Hybrid Unit specialze in one side of the coin, but can still perform on the other. Streltsi for example are mostly fully functioning gun units that can still fight in melee. Given the nature of Ice Magic and it's kiting potential, having ranged capabilities on your frontline will decimate most foes to the point where they are quite easy to kill in melee even with subpar melee strength. I do like to have 2-4 units of tzar guard in some armies to stall a flank or chokepoint, but there are better races for such a playstyle. Btw, Ironbreakers do have ranged power as well. Your idea of absolute specialisation would be more fitting towards, say, chosen of slaanesh with whips, who can hold and do basically nothing else.
@@GCOSBenbow I play a far more defensive style. I would never in a thousand years try and use armored kossars to duel enemy ranged units. I view and use them as Ironbreakers. They expend their ammo softening the oncoming enemy before holding them in melee, allowing my streltsi and co. to deal the actual damage.
I really like the new additions to the kislev roster. Halberds are really good early game and kinda turned kislev into a real faction for the first 15 turns to be honest. But my favorite thing with the patch was katarins sled, that thing is just so silly, it never gets stuck and runs through chosen halberds like its nothing.
To add, thing i like about streltsi is i can have 2 streltsi in my army just to help to focus fire high value units. Its a unit that you don't need to spam and can mix small amounts between your archers to kill big baddies.
Katarin’s sled is disgustingly good. She just bullies any infantry she fights. Put a banner of speed on her and she just runs down anything in the game. It’s also bugged in such a way that the center of mass for the unit makes it hard for enemy single entities to hit her while she’s routing and she still hits back while she is.
Little Grom has a surprisingly high armor alongside those range boosts, especially thanks to the boosts from the skill tree. So using them as this slow moving chariot once the melee grind begins has saved me multiple times and made this unit a staple to almost every army I make. Seeing it in such a high position just warms my heart.
I haven't played Kislev for a long time, but I remember that it's shots had a very good piercing power and demolished infantry. They were so cool, man
I would consider kostaltyn and katarin ability to recruit tzar guard from landmarks as semi negator to your argument that they are incovinient to recruit,since that is half of kislevs factions.
Those landmarks are the same tier as the royal barracks so it doesn't make them any more convenient. They still take 2 turns to recruit.
@@michaelfetter4541 Legend said that the building they are recruited from is not high priority and that is why it is not very convenient, but the landmarks are buildings that you want to build.
@@vojislavjovanovic6596 The Katarin one I agree. I always build that one but more for the early ice guard glaives. The Kostaltyn one isn't needed to me. It's in a minor settlement that gets constantly attacked by Norsca. And it's expensive for just a couple extra ranks on tzar guard.
Regarding ostankya units and similar scenarios, would be good to have a seperate section at the end of the video where you cover faction specific units briefly.
Video idea, army composition/building armies for early mid and late game. In an easy to understand format similarly to the tierlist where you can drag and drop units into the army, then ofcourse reasoning around strengths/weaknesses and how to deal with different enemies. I think it would be really insightful even as a fairly experienced player!
Thank you for making and updated tierlist
These are much needed,hope you cover all factions eventually
One important note for the Tzar Guard and Gryphon Legion is that there's also a landmark building at Castle Alexandronov (Kostaltyn's Summer retreat) that allows for their recruitment at a tier 3 minor settlement.
which is only easy for Kostaltyn. How easy is it for the other three factions to gain control of Erengrad? By that time they have far easier routes.
It's actually quite funny how different single player meta is from multiplayer meta. The moment when both agree, we know a unit is definitely OP, which in this case is Little grom. Although I don't agree on ALL SP rankings as well, I love the tierlists as it gives other perspective to already set opinion, keep doing it 💪
Note on gryphon legion. In a kostaltyn campaign because you start at castle alexandronov it's very easy to build Njevski's citadel, a unique building that allows recruitment of gryphon legion at tier 3 (as well as tzar guard) which can make using gryphon legion more viable in that specific scenario.
Kislevite warrior is s tier IMHO.
The they have the same meele def as darvi warriors and insane AP for t0 unit thus they punch way above their weight group.
And they are just dirt cheap...like insanely so.
Also with this patch the gryphon legion is pretty insane since the update.
I love how Legend is unafraid to admit to a change of mind, or simply to change it. I've always loved the Streltsi, precisely for the reasons stated here. Legend did not like them at launch, and now accepts their quality.
As usual, super list.
Very informative video, though I personally would like it if you put unit cards somewhere on the screen when talking about them. Seeing numbers helps me visualize the units better for some weird reason.
I've found little groms really effective at sniping enemy lords as they approach, they are super accurate and said accuracy can by boosted with a tempest witch.
Although it may seem like a cheap copy, I think Kislev could benefit from a hero similar to a paladin or empire captain, who can be recruited from the same building as the Tsar Guard. Tsar guard captain?
Happy to see you back to these! Many are very very outdated, and these are some of my favorites to watch
Legend, you can recruit Kossovite Dervishes through main building in Praag and Erengard (but not in Kislev or otherprovinces).
I don't know if making it tier zero is enough to make it C tier. Legend said that most of the starting enemies around you don't have units that are vulnerable to light cav.
Unfortunately they are still terrible
@@manopeace9175The AI is always vulnerable to fast light cav. Peeling off one, two or even three units while the enemy's main force advances is great for the early game. Plus, they help run things down.
Really nice list and as a someone who plays Kislev a lot I mostly agree with this list.
Only thing I would disagree with is the horse archer unit. Early game that unit is a A tier unit especially with a Druzhina lord on a horse. They are not the best unit in terms of pure stats, but they add so much utility.
They are excellent at baiting armies to attack your if they try to take a defensive position, you can make half the enemy army chase you around the map making the main army deal with the enemy in small waves, they are great at snipping high value single/low unit targets like Mammoths, Throt or even Archaeon if you get them to chase you while also keeping them out of combat, when they run out of ammo they are still decent in Melee to kill ranged infantry, artillery, rear charges to break the enemy or chase down fleeing units.
Best of all they are really cheap with low global recruitment time to recruit so you only need recruitment 1 building.
Thanks legend!! I hope you're planning to do a Tzeech one!
Me being polish and descendant of Hussars. "I mean I get why you'd not choose the cavalry, but I must battle scream for my ancestors anyways."
The Kislevite warriors are so nice for the minimal investment and make the early game for Kislev feel so much better to play.
Legend, I thought for a long time about how to make total war even more interesting and this idea came to me - what if we limit the number of units that can be hired in one building? For example, high elves - 1 building for hiring dragons, tier 5 - which would make it possible to hire and “maintain” 2-3 high dragons. And of course, strengthen them significantly - so that the dragon would scatter 2-3 infantry units of a smaller tier. Do the same for all other units, well, except for tier 1 - they can be hired without restrictions on numbers.
This idea is because of doom stacks - this is a really crazy concept when you can hire an unlimited number of the strongest units with 1 building. Plus, this will diversify the game - it will be necessary to use mixed armies, there will be more sense in capturing new territories, high-tier units will really stand out and seriously influence the battlefield.Of course, it will still be possible to collect a doom stack - but using the example of high dragons, you will need 6-9 capital settlements of the 5th level.
What do you think about this idea? Or maybe I'm not the first and someone has already made a similar mod? Thanks for your content!
You are describing the Tomb Kings. Try them out if that is what you are looking for.
@andsusansucks But the thing is that I don’t like the faction itself))) Plus I would like this approach to be for all factions - otherwise the Tomb Kings look crippled against their background))
Man, I don't want to ruin it, but it's called unit caps and implemented several years ago for some factions and with some mods for everyone😄
@@legionerer You didn't spoil anything - thank you very much! Now I’ll check out these mods - although they are not exactly what I wanted - there is no strengthening of top units. But it’s still much more interesting - thank you!
Thanks for the video. It was informative and helpful!
Kislev have access to Dazh's Brazier that is basically aoe hunger so healing is not really that much problem even after Druzina debug Or you can even use Lore of Hag for healing
Question: if demonic trait is so bad, then why did they got it? Didn’t elemental bears need a significant buff instead of a nerf? I don’t get it
For thematic reasons I assume. It's an elemental incarnate, it doesn't run away since it can't feel fear, but it doesn't really die either so it starts vanishing once the magic that keeps it together weakens.
Just one of the many rushed changes. They pretty much did no QA at all.
They just wanted to blanket all single entity units as constructs, hopefully they give a compensation buff
I really love to see the tierlists back!
Tsar Guard has 2-3 special buildings that make getting them much more conveniant.
The best thing about comparing the newer tier lists with the ones from WH2 is to see how much better melee infantry has gotten, especially for certain factions.
That's because the AI's melee cheats were gutted, and the reworks to supply lines.
The Elemental bear has come a long way. Proud of the little rascal!
Armored kossars are easily A tier for me. They saved my early campaigns so many times i cant even count.
Warbears are not "anti-large". Warbears are anti-everything.
I only diasgree with Armored Kossars placement, should be A-tier cause their silver shields and ranged weapons are extremely valuable especially with tech tree buffs. Yes the building is inconvenient but I usually get them through the landmark anyways or if I'm lucky through a captured settlement that already had that military building built.
Akashina with new Kislev lord is so OP, 47 missile damage, require tier 2 building and 1 turn recruitment make them cheap doomstack. And the LL hag can give them snipe also
My favourite actor is T.Hanks
Akshina ambusher still has more ap damage than ice guard lol.
Also they only take 1 turn to recruit, and once you build a t3 landmark at praag(turn 30-ish) you can globally recruit them in 1 turn, and the new lord boost them as well, and you're gonna get the building anyway for the hero, so I think they're still a S-tier unit.
I'm quite fond of using the Frost Wyrms to just barrel into the enemy and keep them down for enough time to get my Streltsi and Ice Guard in position, or to blob up infantry for a cavalry charge or a spell. I have a slight weakness for really fast monstrous ground units. The Skaven giant mole rat(can't arse myself to look up what it's actually called) is a bit of the same. They don't necessarily punch the hardest, or take the biggest punches themselves, but they will be where I want them when I want them to be there, and are far easier to withdraw than other units I might stick in similar roles.
I think kislev's shock cavalry options are actually great if you micro them. Glorious charge+fear+flanking allows to rout units very quickly and deal enormous damage
If you solely take their battlefield performance into account, war sleds are definitely incredible. The problem with them is their campaign map performance is hot garbage. Every time I use them, I have to fight nearly 100% of my battles because their autoresolve is so trash. Additionally, losing even a single hp from attrition or any other source drops their count from 4 models to 3. You'll see a 99% hp war sled with 3 models, which is equivalent to making them 75% on the battlefield. War sleds are one of the units in this game that autoresolve treats like steaming garbage and having to fighting 99% of the battles is so boring and tedious, especially when they're obviously easy wins. I even have times when autoresolve says it nukes nothing, but nukes sleds anyways. Game does the same thing with units like Witch Elves and CA just doesn't fix it.
How about a ranking for Historical battles throughout the games (like challenging or playabilty or just the way it was brought to life in the games) would love to see it ^.^
Also the Golden Knight helps boost both Tzar Guard and Ice Guard to make them better thru Melee boost and exp gain so putting it with a doom stack makes them stronger.
Honestly, the Winged Lancers are pretty strong and punch above their weight, while the Gryphon Legion is pretty underwhelming comparing the recrutiment (time and cost) and unit tier they are in.
Tzar guard is more convenient especially if you're playing Katarin specifically because Kislev (The City not Faction) itself has unique building Bokha Palace that connect from Tzar Guard recruitment to Ice Guard thus combining 2 building into one which is very efficient not to mention upkeep reduction bonus for Ice Guard so if there's one place to build it then I would think it would be in Kislev
I’ve been using Kislev warrior until endgame. They are quite solid with their ap.
They suffer in auto resolve, but again, they are so easy to recruit it's not that much of a problem.
I would say that one singular unit of dervishes to chase down routing foes is quite useful - not worth a building slot of course, but if I can recruit one in a freshly conquered city or the like, before getting better cav, I usually do.
I think the new lord of Hag actually help snow leopard stack quite a bit. Especially taking advantage of the leopard’s small size to use the breath spell to heal your entire army. There’s also a spell that does a lot of damage to single entity if enemy have a lot of small size single entity.
A snow leopard doomstack with 3 patriarchs for group healing is amazingly cost effective, even outside of going against ogres. Singly they aren't fantastic but a group of them fighting in a blob can take just about anything, even infantry masses (albeit slowly). Having a caster lord to help thin out infantry and you've got a fantastic and cheap army from T3 onward.
Kislevite Warriors with a Druzhina Lord who has "Speaks to the Forest", which is currently bugged, are pretty damn good in the early/mid game. Pretty sure CA will fix this very fast, like all fun stuff.
To be fair, regen for the whole army legit trivializes the campaign if you use it.
But the fun police always works magnitudes faster than fixing other bugs, or worse, animation issues...
@@Grivehn That is what makes it so irritating. It means that they could fix bad/game breaking bugs but instead only fixes the fun bugs.
@@googleandsusansucks Yeah, agreed.
Regen is almost as good as having 60% extra health or whatever the base regen cap is. For balance of power calculation it is actually better since it isn't accounted for.
If you play Catharin you can quickly build that unique building in Kislev (that you want to build anyway) and then Global Recruit Tzar Guard for the rest of the campaign.
I just finished a Catharin-campaign and I didn't build that millitary building for Tzar Guard even once (well I did, but only for the Golden Knight, then I instantly demolished it.)
I'd put Tzar Guard with Shield in A-tier. They're not that inconvinient to build and they hold the line better than anything.
I Think those 3 buildings in Basic Military line needed to be merged in two
I absolutely agree. I still don't understand why players are so harshly punished for even attempting to build more diverse armies through the early to midgame. Especially since battles are the most fun in the early and midgame when they can still have some high stakes. Most of the time I also just fall back into spamming easy to recruit units, and by the time I'm comfortable building most types of barracks and diversifying my armies, the campaign usually got boring already. Giving all factions more options to recruit more unit types without too much investment, would make early game battles so much more fun and interesting, as you yourself can recruit more than just archer spams without nuking your entire economy, and don't run into stack after stack of half spearmen and half archers by the AI.
@@JuGsa couldn't said it better myself!
revisiting this just now
I am looking forward to the updated unit tier lists for Nurgle, Empire and Dwards after Thrones of DELAY
There is a lot to unpack there, I think especially for the dwarfs who changed a lot
I'd love to see a lot of these lists get updated
Boris has a lord trait that gives regen to elemental bears. I never give him elemental bears because his warbear stack with a couple patriarchs goes so hard, but something to consider if the druzhina bug is in question.
In my experience the griffin legion cover a different nieche than the warbears. When fighting malus on the north, war bear rider take for ever to kill darkshards or shades, and because dark elves spam those guys, not killing them fast enough is a very big problem. But a single unit of Griffin legion destroys them in seconds, they are SO much better at kiling infantry its impressive, I would put them at A tier defenetly
The Total War subreddit would have you believe Kislevite Warriors are SS tier with their outrageous hyperbole.
They are a good unit, but I'd argue their is a good reason for the enthusiasm around them. What they bring early game is a game changer. Early kislev army are way more balanced and vastly more powerful. They are SS tier for 10-15 turns.
LOVE ALL THE TIER LISTS
Love your tier lists, Legend ❤
My biggest issue playing Mama O in Realms of Chaos is a lack of forests. A lot of maps are too open to capitalize on the thing in the woods forest units (and some of those quest battles are rough without artillery). IDK if shes better in IE
Dervishes and Horse Archers are definitely not excellent units, but I find that if you have a few of them they do an ok job of clearing enemy cavalry and dogs. While those units aren't that threatening it kind of clears up the field a bit and I can use them to get the enemy to charge at my defensive line. Cavalry in general work most effectively when working together, so while one unit won't always win a fight, you can beat tougher enemies by surrounding them with several.
Ah I am playing as the bloke at the moment. The guy you unlock! Very very hard campaign this is my 3rd start.
Boris!
I'd like to see you go back over the Warhammer 1 and 2 faction units in tiermaker and rate how good they are in Warhammer 3
Things in the Woods and Incarnate Elementals can easily be given stalk in any army by a fairly low level Hag Witch, making them some of the most useful monsters in the game imo.
I been playing almost exclusively kislev for about 80 hours. I confederated a unit that had like 10 kislev warrior units and I never saw then before and thought they were something special and distributed a few to each army. Never saw em again. Now I know where to get em.
Things in the wood are amaaaaaazing with ostankya honestly. I have a stack with them waaaay into the lategame and they take almost no damage.
what are the buffs she gives them?
I feel that having a tier list like this where there isn't one tier dominanting above all others is really good. I agree with a lot of the placements here, and understand some of the others, so I feel this roster is pretty good.
I really love having 2-3 frost dragons in my early game cheap armies. The fact that they’re so easy to recruit should almost be enough to push them up a tier. And in my experience frost dragons preformed more than adequately. If you’re also in a pinch and have one turn to globally recruit the best units possible, I’d rather get three frost dragons than three ice guards.
I'd like Akshinas to get a slight reduction in upkeep cost. They're better than kossars, but not 2x the upkeep cost's worth of good IMO. I imagine it was worth it back when they had AP, but I didn't play it back when SoC was worse (and more than $20USD; found a deal for it to get it for $20 for me).
For heavy war sleds they do also have more mass than light war sleds I believe, doesn't make them much better but it does allow them to perform a little better against infantry (not that kislev needs much more anti infnatry)
A bit late, but a use case for the starting snow leopard is to fight mounted Norse etc. heroes/lords. It is kind of a "duelist" in that way, and its like, what you actually have early on.
Just dont have the "duel" be fair.
Hey Legend, are you thinking about doing a generic lord tier list for the TW3 factions?
I think it'd be good if Ice Witches and Frost Maidens could get a skill that gives them an ability to heal ice creatures like the Elemental Bear and Frost Wyrms
War Bear ruiders are ridiculously OP especially in autoresolve. Just look at zerkovich's short titled "Auto-Resolve is perfect" to see what I mean
Its time for a staunch line of Spe...Kislevites!
the elemental encarnates can be deathstacked better than you give them credit for. The new wind of hags healing is more than good enough. and if you disagree. simply add another hag to the army. The biggest issue with the healing is the cooldown afterall.
I think the Frost Wyrm is bugged at the moment because it's underperforming against T1 human swordsmen. Just one group of them can take down a wyrm while losing very little.
So something is wrong there.
But I find the two standard melee and short ranged weapon units to be really good. Not only can they dish out a lot of damage later on in the game but they hold the line so damn well.
High morale, shields and decent attack makes them pretty good. They are also not that expensive either.
So when an enemy is charging in, they will be able to fire at them once or twice and it weakens the enemy to the point where your unit has the advantage. It makes a difference.
As for Little Grom. The only issue I have with it, is that it doesn't have so much ammo. But otherwise it has great range and can't be easily wiped out by enemy spells or spawns.
I don't have the DLC so I might didn't get the new lord.
Still I use them for sieges where I need to take down towers. But a 3 pack of 4 cannons do a better job from other factions due to having much more ammo.
Love legends tier lists, more of them could be redone with updates as most of them was recorded from W2. I would watch them.
The things in the wood and incarnate of beast can get stalk with hag heroes, very good for killing missile units and monsters
Slaanesh Bots are really wholesome today!
Enjoyed this update a lot. I'm surprised Elemental Bears managed to scrape A tier! I was expecting you to slam them down into D.
New video idea: A tierlist where you dont miss out on key points
Frost Wyrms was the early siegeattacker in kislev that could get in one turn at early game
Loving the content Legend.
Legend harshly judging mystical Slavs is the content I'm here for.
For me it was always kinda sad how the game screws up the cavalry, especially in Kislev's case. In WH lore Kislevite and Bretonian cavalry units are the best in the old world. In the game all of the cavalry is basically outclassed by other units because of the game mechanics.
Because 90% of battles that you play manually are siege battles(( in open field cav is great
Cav perform just fine, they are a high effort high return unit. Infantry will mostly do fine even if you forget them in the thick of it for minutes, cavalry will be long gone if you so much as look away for a second. But with proper micro, cavalry will do a lot of heavy lifting, especially against enemies with particularly dangerous high value units, artillery or other range.
I have a question regarding the Kossovite Dervishes. Since post-battle rewards are affected by the number of kills you get, wouldn't it be a good idea to have one or two Dervishes in the army to run down routing units to boost to amount of gold and experience you get post-battle?
If you wanna feel the true Kislevite power, Boris Ursus with warbear rider doomstack.. He is unstoppable, one of the strongest for sure
What i woudl change:
Lepard D - 3k hp is a joke, they die in secounds and arent even that good against large units.
Bear either C/D - I agree with your arguments and dont understand its A tier placement.
Frostwyrm A - The earlist Siegeattacker you can get.
Derwisch B - Very priceeffizient and do a lot of dmg if you ask me.
Grom A - Decent unit, imporantant for Kisliv but you get them pretty late.
Tzaar with Sword C - You usually dont need them and they are very expensive.
The better kossars A - Big early frontline upgrade.
Gryphon Legion should be in Tier IV cavarly building and Tsar Guard in the same building as Streltsi in my opinion
Idea for video: i would love to see units stats. I dont know shit about Kislev units so it is like looking to pictures.:)
But still thanks for vid! ❤
I think that Things in the Woods should be higher than B tier.
They are very fast, they have pretty small models and have magical attacks + loads of armor piercing. On top of that, they have 24 entities in unit rather than the usual 16.
Probably one of the best anti-infantry melee unit currently in the game.
Kislevite Warriors have a hidden attack speed of 4.4 seconds, one of the fastest in the game.
While the Empire halberdiers have an attack speed of 5.6 seconds, one of the slowest.
So despite the slightly lower stats, Kislevite Warriors are in fact equivalent to the Empire halberdiers.
All melee swing timers are normalized. The attack delay value is just the extra time added on top of the animation to normalize melee swing timers between units. I'm not saying that some unit can't have a higher than average swing rate but usually it's balanced around one swing per model per 10 seconds.