Except schwab is white, and it seems like everyone on book tube agrees that white people shouldn’t write about racial oppression. If addie connected with a black woman whose achievements were constantly ignored, the comments would call it shallow and making light of racial oppression.
No way dude. Fun to speculate about but that is in reality a terrible idea and would NEVER go over well, no matter how “well” it was done. You really wanna read a story about a privileged white girl traveling around to Africa and Asia and comparing the curse she got from a mystical demon to be forgotten by the people she meets, to systemic oppression?? Lmao. Imo Schwab did this story the only way it COULD realistically be written and published, by staying solely in her own lane.
Cindy talking about how writing her book about lesbian characters made her consider her own sexuality made me have a flashback to the time I started writing a story cis and finished trans.
i remember writing a gay love story set in ancient greece that didn’t start out gay it just came out naturally, but like midway through or after writing it i turned out to be a sapphic so
Literally same?? I started making a story when I was younger with two gay guys at the center. Couple years later and surprise! I’m a guy now and I’m gay as fuck. Still writing that story, still love these dumbasses to bits.
Cindy talking about writing about a sapphic-focused love story and then questioning her sexuality made me think back to how it took me writing a few bisexual protagonists in relationships with women before I realized that I, a cis woman who thought I was completely straight, was in fact also into women.
Me at 11 writing a story with only LGBTQ characters and pretty much obsessing over the lesbians not realising I was gay as hell till three years later...
i think a good example of a white person writing non-white characters is Alice Oseman writing Radio Silence. She had white, mixed, Asian, and (i think) Indian characters in her book and as a POC, i couldn't find anything wrong or stereotypical with it because she didn't write about their racial struggles as she herself couldn't relate to them, so she wrote about them how you would write about normal people, like struggles with high school, sexualities, families, etc. because then it didn't seem like forced diversity or performative activism, it just seemed like the plot unfolded and the characters just _happened_ to be diverse because that's how it literally is; people just exist.
I'm reading her webcomic Heartstopper and I love her writing so much. Every month, she donates the proceeds she gets from there to different charities. Last month she raised almost $800 to support black trans people in her community. I've been wanting to read her novels for awhile now, but I just haven't gotten to them yet.
this is exactly what i thought when watching the video!! radio silence is one of my favorite books ever and the fact that it had poc as main characters was just a plus for me, it felt very genuine and she cared about all of her characters equally which is why they felt like real people instead o a cutout of poc
From your comment alone, wouldn't that play into a non-racist utopia? I don't know if that's the right term, but it has been criticized too when white authors don't acknowledge the struggles their characters of color would realistically have. But I haven't read that book or know the author, so...
@@randomuserwitharandomname6183 Hmmm I'm not OP but I think this honestly is a complicated question because I agree with what you mean but on the other hand I would say 99% of white people are not equipped to write about the problems POC face. I think yes they should learn how to write POC and that includes the oppression but in the present time that's just very unlikely to be done well. Someone in a diff comment rightfully mentioned that POC also deserve escapism (although I've never read Radio Silence so idk how much it's based in reality) but also on the other hand art can't truly be separated from reality because the world we live in and our experiences will always shape our art. Basically there is not definitive answer, I guess in a way it depends on the whole work itself and what the value the colourblindness holds in the context of the story (like are they all fairies living in a made up land who just happen to look human or are they kids growing up in the suburbs, etc.)
@@withcindy it's what cindy's partner hears from the lounge when cindy decides to cook for the night: 'how's the dinner going?' 'the whiteness of addie larue' 'bruh, wut' 'the wine's in, i'm adding the roux' 'poggers'
cindy makes argument: *agrees* cindy makes counter-argument: *agrees again* cindy makes counter-argument to counter-argument: *starts sweating and nods profusely* cindy makes counter-argument to the counter-argument to the first counter-argument: i have no mouth and i must scream
do people forget that all writers do is write people that aren't (really) them? one doesn't need to be a serial killer to write one in a story. I'm sure real serial killers read fictional stories about serial killers and go "that's not how *I* do things - I'm offended!"
I thought she totally wrote a character who was exactly her. She sounded like she was symbolically infusing this fantasy with her own feelings about one night stands or something.
I would say that autors essentially always write about themselves. At least I do. My characters have facets of my personality and experiences. They share pieces of my mind like pizza slices. Usually one character gets more of me than the others. I don't think I would do well or even enjoyed writing about someone that is my complete oposite.
I feel like a lot of the problem lies in the fact that media usually (and perhaps unintentionally) assumes that ethnic, LGBT+, disabled, neurodivergent, etc. people dont face the same universal problems that all humans have. When we actually see a minority as the protagonist of a story, most of the time the entire plot centers on the ways society oppresses them, and the challenges they face in overcoming those problems. These are stories that deserve to be told, but they end up being the only stories we ever hear about them. White people get to have the "normal" stories, and everyone else has to be an inspirational underdog that also acts as an avatar of their culture. Thats an unfair situation because no singular character can represent an entire population. On one side you will always have people in the minority group who are disappointed that the character doesnt personally resonate with them. On the other, you have people outside of the minority who cannot relate to the struggles at all, and probably wont engage with the story to begin with. Personally, I like representation as expressed in movies like Soul, Us, and Spiderverse. The fact that the leads in those stories are black has very little to do with the plot actually, yet they dont shy away from showing their culture either. Their racial background is completely incidental to the story, and as a result they get to be characters that can stand up on their own. For me, thats kind of the goal of representation: to normalize the existence and experiences of other groups of people, and show that we arent so different at the end of the day. To make them feel like people rather than a box to check off. Also its just nice to have escapism. Its kind of depressing how the only time black people get to have a significant role is when theyre being brutalized or discriminated against. Like I get enough of that shit in real life, you know? Can I just pretend that Im a superhero for an hour and half lol?
Agreed and same. I wanna see Native characters who aren’t just being sterotypes or oppressed. Maybe I just want a Native character to go on some magical quest and fight monsters, or have to deal with the everyday grind of being unhappy with not achieving their dream and deciding “hey, I’m quitting my job at 7 eleven imma go be a game developer.”
yea, i feel like when the only plot line for poc's and minorites is oppression, it seems like the creators are showing that our opression is the only important part of us. idk if im making sense, but it feels like we as people arent important, and people only care about our opression. That's why i love it when we get poc and minority characters that are actually fully fleshed out
Artistvsworld I don't know if you've read it yet but Percy Jackson and the Heroes of Olympus has a Cherokee main character who actually does go on quests and fight monsters and stuff. I think the representation is kind of controversial (I can't really speak for it since I'm white) but if you read it, I would recommend reading Percy Jackson and the Olympians first since that's the first series.
@@mimirants7935 also people talk about lgbt rep in dark academia but then its like. implying some dead guy was maybe sort of gay??? like ive read fanfic oneshots with more rep
As a black woman, I agree with one of your points. I don’t want diversity that feels forced. I would rather you just not try. And with that, I won’t criticize this book for leaving out people of color. I also do not mind when white authors write people of color. Matt Ruff is a white author that wrote lovecraft country and he wrote all black main characters VERY well in my opinion.
@@rainydays3215 As long as they can actually write well. Mollycoddling people for the sake of diversity does no favours whatsoever, not to mention the double standards it potentially brings.
Definitely!! Especially when that oppression takes over the stories of their diverse casts, as is too often prone to happen. Like... people's existences don't revolve around their oppression. I'm gay but my life doesn't consist solely of getting hatecrimed.
This might be a “hot take” (god kill me) but you can have a character that isn’t the same race as you because race isn’t a personality, just like how sexuality isn’t a personality. You can write diverse characters but the personality shouldn’t be their race or sexuality, you can write a gay CHARACTER but not a GAY character, you shouldn’t be putting emphasis on what makes them diverse because then it’ll seem like your just making that character for tokenism.
Exactly! these things are traits. Especially depending what your story is about. If it's focused on fantasy or sci-fi, etc, your character shouldn't revolve around traits that don't even affect the story. I'm not saying someone's identities won't affect their experiences (it definitely will, especially if the story is set in our world), but it shouldn't be all they are.
And at that point you could argue that a writer can only write about things they have personally experienced in order to portray it accurately, which makes no sense.
I agree I do think if you writing from a race, culture, gender, sexuality or an experience you don't have first hand knowledge about I think it's really important you research and get stories of people who do and you can find them online cause if you are using someone else's story you need to do it justice
There was a Vietnamese UA-cam a month or so back who went after the Armchair Historian I believe it was because he wasn’t Vietnamese and he shouldn’t be talking about Vietnamese history in response to him making a video on the Vietnam War. It was like girl, it’s history and white people were _involved._
Ignite the Inferno even if there weren’t it’s ridiculous. I’m saying this as someone who’s not white. With anything you’re going to talk about to a large group of people you definitely need to do your research but saying there are things you can and can’t do because of your race, etc., is a real ridiculous slippery slope. First we say white people cant talk about non-white stuff, but then it spreads. I’ve seen Indian people say black women wearing Indian hair, using henna, and copying Bollywood dance moves is cultural appropriation. Soon everyone will be tearing each their apart. Instead of understanding diversity we’ll be dividing ourselves by our differences further. It’ll be shackles instead of freedom.
My thoughts at that comment were that making her a less-than-admirable character at that less-than-admirable time would have added a nice degree of realism, as well as an opportunity later to watch a character grow as she recognizes the problematic aspects of her earlier actions.
Addie LaRude: _{witnesses horrific racist events in history}_ Additionally Addie LaRude: "I don't know that man, he could be walking down the street and I wouldn't know a thing"
As a working to be black author, I love having diverse characters. But the biggest thing when writing characters to me is to write the personality first. The writer of Grey's anatomy (who's black) said she just wrote the characters as personalities, she said anyone could play those roles it wasn't just for certain races and I think it's good to make it like that. But once you do know what race the characters are and they aren't the race you are, make sure to do some research. That's what I do. But I need the motivation to finish my novel bc girl, school is stressful.
i totally agree! i like the method of writing with the characters' personality in mind first, then adjusting for the nuances of their race and other parts of their identity once u figure out those parts.
I think this is a really good tactic. Race and gender will affect how the world treats that character but how they adapt to those pressures will be idiosyncratic, depending on their individual tempermant, personality, and life experiences. You just can't ignore that those pressures exist and manifest differently for different groups of people.
I think TV specifically also benefits from writer's rooms (if they're diverse), because that way you are able to have multiple people of different ethnicities, identities, sexualities etc. and there is always someone who can give perspective and guidance.
Yess!! That's common writing advice too, actually! I always ignore advice that suggests I start with physical descriptions, or at least I try to skip that part until later. I still wouldn't leave that until the very end, though, because race (and appearance in general), unfortunately, does affect how you experience the world, how others see and treat you, etc. So, I''d probably do it before delving too much into backstory. Ahh, it's difficult! But so worth exploring. Best of luck with both writing and schoolwork!
I feel like that's a lot easier of a process on TV because if you cast an actor from a different background from you, then the actor can bring their own nuance to the character and give feedback as they look over scripts. Sounds like a really good process in general though!
"Wouldn't the theme of this book be stronger if Addie had met women of colour that were forgotten about in history because then that would've made a parallel to the curse that she was going through." Holy shit, that just blew my mind. That would've been SO GOOD.
I think an option for Addie Larue could have been staying within the continents she visits in the book, but referencing the POC who lived there throughout history. She could have referenced people like Alexandre Dumas, French author of The Three Musketeers and The Count of Monte Cristo, who was mixed race and the son of a black General of the French army. Like that’s relevant representation that fits within the realm of the worlds the story covers.
@@moustik31 I was just referencing a French contemporary, exactly how black he is doesn’t make it not part of his life experience, but I’m also not saying he’s completely black. And he’s only one example off the top of me head at the time, there are many many other people at other points on history. Her point in the video was that including elements like this would be relevant, especially because in Alexandre’s situation, not many people nowadays knows he’s mixed. An element of his identity forgotten by many. Again, relevant to a theme in the books like Cindy said. But like I mentioned this was just the first name off the top of head at the time, I’m not saying it’s the absolute perfect example.
@@bluedune8458 He is a 3/4 White man (like Sally Hemmings is a 3/4 enslaved White woman). I do hope you dont consider him a "completely" Black man. Jeezus. Whiteness needs to become way more inclusive, than it actually is. Those discussions are ridiculous.
@@moustik31 I just said I don’t. But during his time period he would have had a unique experience being mixed regardless of the exact proportions. That’s all I am saying. The whole point is that Cindy was talking about characters and elements that could have been included that would have been relevant to the themes of the book. Dumas was just the first French contemporary who sprung to mind. He’s not necessarily the best option but he’s an example, that’s all. Just how black or white he is, isn’t the point. The point is that this book could have included a wider variety of perspectives from the various time periods Addie lived in.
There is no "good answer" for these questions. You have to do what you can with a kind heart, an attentive mind and, above all, empathy. There is no avoiding criticism. People will have an opinion no matter how careful and thoughtful you are, regarding race but also a myriad of other things, and it's not something you can control. It's part of the universal experience being a writer. I think it's important to listen to criticism with introspection and to reflect on our priviledge, our impact on others and our personal responsibility, as writers and as human beings, to think about racial issues and to help shift the culture in every big and tiny way we can. What each of us does and how we think matters, and often more broadly than we can imagine.
I agree with this too ^^ I think listening to other people and hear what their thoughts are, especially those who are more knowledgeable and experienced about these topics. I feel like what Cindy did is what drives us forward to writing better stories. Opening up the discussion and sharing what is troubling communicates that we should do better and what to consider when we do. It shows us what we’re missing.
Something I’ve noticed is that when white authors don’t include POC, people complain there’s no diversity, but when they do include POC, people complain there’s no depth or the characters are stereotyped because their race is mentioned in passing without adding in any of the struggles those people face (not all books should need to talk about social issues but I’ve seen this complaint a lot, like “that character might as well have been white because nothing about them showed me they were Black, Asian, etc. and I wouldn’t have known if you didn’t explicitly state it.”) But when those white authors try to add in depth and racial struggles, etc., people complain that it’s not genuine and they shouldn’t be writing about that because they’re white and haven’t experienced that firsthand. So to me it feels like people will complain about what white authors do, regardless of the story or characters. Does anyone else notice this?
Yes because there’s the correct why to do everything, but only when it’s done correctly should we feel the need to praise it. You either get it or don’t
"You know when BLM happened and a bunch of white girls retweeted links and they were like, 'okay im done'. Then when they get called out for their racism in the past, they disappear just like Addie LaRue." 😭😂
I remember reading someone say it was creepy when adults wrote stories about kids and they should only write about adults. I was flabbergasted. Like, are you saying you don’t want books and shows about people under 20? Or are you saying you want books starring kids to only be written by kids? Cause that doesn’t sound like it’ll be very good.
That's just dumb. Everyone has been a child. Everyone isn't the same race or has the same circumstances, but that's what stories are for...to tell stories about said circumstances.
As an aspiring author who's white, this is something I think about a lot. On one hand, I want to have a diverse cast of characters, because the world is diverse and I was lucky enough to grow up in a very multicultural city with a diverse group of friends. On the other hand, I've heard people talk about white authors writing non-white characters as taking opportunities from POC authors who should be able to tell their own stories. In the end, it feels like it's a no-win situation.
im also white so my opinion might not matter as much, but as a lesbian i wouldnt want to see a cishet author writing an entire 500 page novel about the pain and terror of being a lesbian yknow? yes i do want to see lgbt rep in media but stories centered around and about being lgbt should be left to people who've experienced what its like
i think that anyone should be able to write diversity into their stories and shouldn’t be limited to only writing characters they completely identify with. obviously there’s some issues when this happens, like with what happened with american dirt, tokenization (which isn’t just limited to white authors) and just a lack of research in general. but i think as long as people make an effort to show that they’ve put in research, such as having sensitivity readers or making sure what they’re portraying isn’t harmful, i think that anyone can write a diverse cast of characters.
Think of it this way: Every single author/playwright/screenwriter has written about people who are different from them. Female authors write about males in their books and vice versa, young authors write about old people, old authors write about young people, white people write about non-white people and vice-versa. The world of storytelling should be a place where people are encouraged to think outside their boxes. I agree with Cindy in that we shouldn't tell people "you can't write about this because you didn't experience it" because doing so stifles creativity and promotes toxic tribalism. But I also agree with her in that if you are writing a character who is vastly different from yourself, you should take on the responsibility to do as much research as possible so that you can present the most authentic story you can. Best of luck with your future endeavors. I'm a writer too btw😎
i agree its a tricky position to be in. this is what i wanted to talk about for my "a deadly education" discussion, because that is an example of a white author who did incorporate diversity in her dark academia world (awesome!), but had some oversight in the way she wrote certain things and got backlash for it, despite non-malicious intentions on her part
In my dumb opinion, I think that you can write POC characters as long as them being POC is not their main trait. It’s cool when they are just people who have their own personalities, goals and relationships that have nothing to with them being POC. Being a minority is a part of who I am, but it is not *what* I am.
As an aspiring author who's white, I want to make everyone feel represented in my books, but I also want to make sure that I don't accidentally reinforce stereotypes or anything along those lines.
It's simple. Just write the characters first. Make them have a well thought out personality, motives, aspirations, backstory etc outside their ethnicity/sexuality/etc. In essence, write the character first, traits/appearance after. It makes no sense to say you want to write a "diverse" cast of characters and have that be the main focus, because then that makes them "token " forced characters, and it becomes very obvious. Rather, write your diverse characters like you would any one else, don't focus on the fact they are part of one group or another as much as you would their own development as a person. However, if you are going to write about the particular struggles or experiences of a group you have no relation to, always, always, always do your research.
the way i often think of this is generally, i feel like its ok for white authors to write characters of color or cis/straight authors to write lgbtq characters if they dont try to write about those identities/experiences as major themes. as a trans person for example i like when cis authors include trans characters if they do it with genuine thought and care! i Dont like it when i feel like cis authors are trying to like, deeply examine trans identity or tell me what trans identities mean.
Whenever authors write historical fiction, fantasy, or scifi with no people of color - all I think is that their understanding of history and their visions of the future are incredibly narrow. Overall, I think authors are "allowed" to write what they want and readers have the right to critique the books we read. I personally look to authors of color when I'm looking for a diverse group of characters (although AOC are also capable of tokenization).
i totally agree! i would also add onto that authors who dont include POC have an incredibly narrow aesthetic in mind for their book. even when its not historically accurate, and the author wants to write either a fun or thought-provoking or beautiful story, when POC are not included, it speaks to how they envision that aesthetic theyre trying to go for. maybe even their ideal aesthetic?
@@withcindy Absolutely! I also think it speaks to their lack of experience and familiarity with anyone who isn't white. I've never read a book by a Black author that featured a white character who was stereotypical, one dimensional, or fetishized. And I think that's because Black people (especially Black Americans) learn how to understand and navigate white people as a means of survival. While interacting with any BIPOC, often seems optional for white people - especially those who are middle and upper class.
Hey It's Shey It’s entirely possible that a medieval European would never meet a black African (as opposed to an Arabic African from north of the Sahara), but a tremendous amount of the technological advancements from the age either came from or through the Middle East (many having originated in China). Also a great deal of the Iberian Peninsula was controlled by various Caliphates, Sultanates, Emirates etc., and even in Scandinavia we have verified accounts of Arabic scholars who ventured up there to learn about and from them. It’s pretty hard to dodge even if you’re trying to be 100% historically accurate. Even if there are no POC in the work, their influence on Europe would still be visible and obvious.
@@fukyomammason That's a great point! Speaking of medieval people, it wasn't until I read "A World Lit Only By Fire" did I really understand how limited the average peasant was in their worldview.
@@HeyItsShey I mean, if they basically did anything other than work the land they would starve to death. The name of your king or even what kingdom currently controls your land is far less important than basic survival. But most historical stories focus on people of import and power, and at the very least you'd see like a noblewoman in a dress incorporating foreign fabric with an 'exotic' pattern (if for no reason other than showing off). Another point worth making is that the concept of racism didn't really exist as we know it today (otherization would still be a thing, and skin color is obviously more noticeable than regionality). A person's religion would have been the more contentious point. While ignorant peasants from say France and Mali would probably deeply mistrust each other, it's likely that a Coptic priest from Addis Ababa and a Roman Catholic clergyman could have a friendly theological conversation (assuming they shared a language). The commonality of religion and education level would be more important to both men. Quite simply, some of the most interesting places in the world are where cultures had a chance to blend and reshape each other. By denying that aspect of human history, we invariably worsen ourselves as a species. Norman Sicily (google it, it's almost unbelievable) in my mind is one of the best examples of what open-mindedness can achieve, even if the encroaching dark of the ignorant world all around will ever seek to snuff it out.
The thing for me is: this girl had such a lust for life, she literally traded her soul for the that freedom, and she had 300 YEARS to supposedly satisfy that without ever stepping out of Europe or the US?
I'm sorry for the late comment... But in the case of Abby it kinda (just kinda) makes sense? At least to me? She definitely had a lust for life but the circumstance of always being forgotten, never having any type of anchor, would had led her to try to look for and stay in as much familiarity as possible, we now she keep coming back to her hometown again and again
Well when she made agreement with the devil he tricked her, she never specifically said what she wanted, only things she doesn't want and few things that she lives for are never specified in her dialog with the devil. Also problem with travelling would be that she can't find job, because of her curse. Either she would have to steal large amounts of money for any travelling or sneak into any kind of a transport. But I think she just wanted to find a way to live in these new circumstance and learn about her curse, I don't think that she really had any will to go on travel trips when she was cursed to be forgotten, seems kinda like tough situation and travelling isn't her first choice to go.
I thought about this too. The thing is tho, the first time she actually left France was by force. Same with Germany. I think she liked choosing places, mostly big cities, and explore them until there was nothing left to explore. I also think she stayed in Europe for so long bc it always was closer to Villon. Then when she decided she would no longer visit Villon, she finally went to see another continent. For me it’s pretty logic she would choose the USA specifically bc of the infamous “American dream”. I like to believe she moved on to other continents after Henry’s book was published, but unless Miss Schwab writes a second book, I guess we’ll never know.💁🏽♀️
The two things that bothered me most about Addie LaRue is 1) how she doesn't comment on any history that happens or anything that's going on over her 300 years (like you said) 2) she mentions how she spends like entire evenings or maybe even a whole day with people and they don't forget about her until after they go to bed, like you're seriously telling me that no one ever had to pee? They forget her when they leave the room, so where is she finding all of these super bladdered people that don't have to pee for hours?
I don't think every book that has some slight historical bent needs to go on and go on some big monologue about historical events why they were bad or whatever. That's really obnoxious and adds nothing to a book.
I love how this entire video is cindy respectfully debating with herself I love you queen it takes a genuinely intelligent person to be able to see and understand and argue for all the different perspectives.
@@siljenka Doesn't it makes sense that she would try to stay in the richer area's? I know I would do that if I happened to find myself all alone in a different century.
@@hannahbee264 no not really. It's a fantasy book and being wealthy doesn't make a country interesting. Besides, 300 years ago wealth was distributed differently across Europe. V.E. Schwab just wrote about standard European places that are widely recognised as interesting and fancy in modern times.
@@siljenka As a student of European history, I have to disagree with you on this one. The countries she visits were considered the most cultured in this era (and the city Vienna, of course).
From my perspective, when people of color say "stay in your lane", we mean don't make the oppression the focus of that character's story. Systemic racism is constant in real life, but I'm not overtly subjected to it every single moment of my life. I do have times where I get to simply existing as a person. The conflicts in my life aren't solely defined by racism. So if a story is in a fantasy setting where the world as we know it either doesn't exist or takes a backseat to the plot, I don't think white authors have a lot to stand on if they say they don't want to have people of color because that somehow means they have to bring racism into it. Because that's not what's necessarily being asked of them to do. Also if Schwab can have her character think highly of a real historical figure who we know to be a racist, but only wants to focus on the person's positives, then I don't think it's outside of her ability to focus on the positives any marginalized community was experiencing at that time too. With that being said though, if a white author genuinely doesn't want people of color in their stories, then I don't want them to write them in. And that author has to accept being known as the white person who doesn't want people of color in their stories and has to accept the conclusions readers draw with that information. I rather have a white author who wants people of color in their stories so they do the work to represent us as respectfully as they can--and who may fuck it up while trying, than have an author who doesn't care at all and you can explicitly see their indifference or dislike in their work.
Naomi Novik is a good example of a white author doing her best. She had a few mistakes in her newest book, but action was taken to correct it and she posted an honestly great apology (not that it’s mine to accept-but i expected it to be BS since these usually are, so I was surprised at how it was handled overall). Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
""Stay in your lane" makes me think of writers who want to lecture to the public about some societal evil that they believe they are above in some way, and they want to "stand up for" the people they're writing about... without realizing that they might be talking over actual BIPOC or whomever, derailing the conversation to what THEY think is important instead of what the actual affected community is saying, and generally pointing to their own "enlightened allyship" status. No matter how empathetic and educated I try to be, that's never going to be my experience to claim or to accept apologies for or whatever else. It makes me think of male writers who write female sexual assault survivors, claiming to be against misogyny and abuse while also writing gratuitous scenes that are too excessive for the purpose they could arguably serve in the book... and their scenes focusing on those things are some of the most detailed and gratuitous in their entire books, and read an awful lot like the hateful fantasies misogynists would write online. Like, maybe a straight white guy doesn't need to be writing about a female sexual assault victim under a microscope and he could stand to analyze why he felt the need to do so and in such depth. (I'm 100% talking about Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, someone fight me about it.) If someone's really writing BIPOC or writing a story about their societal obstacles, they really gotta reflect in themselves and ask wtf they're trying to do. Are you trying to express what a big ally you are, or are you trying to tell a story? Are you fascinated by the oppression or horrified by it? And I mean- maybe just boost authors who actually know what they're writing about. Idk shit about shit though so I'm sure I'm going to have to check myself when I finish my project.
When I was writing stories, I never really spent much time thinking about how the characters looked. (Also, when I read other people's books, I never remember their character descriptions either, unless it's actually relevant. That's just my style of engaging with stories.) So instead of planning how they looked, I'd just live my life, and occasionally I'd see a stranger and think "that's how this character should look!" Since I lived in the German country side though, said strangers were pretty much exclusively white. It wasn't a conscious effort on my part to make all my characters white; it just kind of happened because of where I was living. (Well, with one exception where I wrote a story about an alternate-reality of post-WW2, where everyone is a Nazi. In that case, yeah, it was intentional because anything else wouldn't make sense.) With all my other characters, I spent so little time describing how they looked, that I could easily go back and retcon half of them as being black, and it wouldn't change a thing.
She should have written in a way that the curse limited her to her hometown or country adding another metaphor of being “trapped” like that goddamn tree in her village
the thing is... it felt like it was sold to us differently? travelling the “world” does not equate to a couple of european countries and the US. if addie had a introspective moment in which she marvelled on how ‘little’ she has lived for such a long time (how she has seen only but a tiny part of what’s out there), and how white-centric her experience was, it would have satisfied me more. but i kept waiting to see more “adventures” around the “world” that weren’t centred on a making an impression on an older, white, problematic dude and this just didn’t happen. the author doesn’t owe us diversity but the character could have been a bit more critical of what she has seen/experienced bc as she’s now, she just sounds as the character equivalent of a european middle school history book.
Personal anecdote - I didn't realize I was (very obviously) bi until my mid twenties because bisexuality is basically invisible in the media, and it isn't focused on in pride spaces either. Then I wrote a sci-fi book featuring a whole city of hot lesbians and everything came to the surface. It was a struggle admitting it to myself, but I'm much more comfortable now. There's no time limit on your journey and it can take you to new places or full circle. Both are fine and valid. Don't sweat it, Cindy. ❤
Yeah, bi erasure is a real problem, even in the LGBTQ sphere. I never felt comfortable calling myself bi because I felt like being mostly attracted to feminine men didn't "count". Idris Elba, tho. Lawd have mercy, that man gives me the vapours.
@@newsystembad it's true. Bi women are considered straight and bi men are considered gay. Or we're all just "experimenting". And if you haven't been with both no one believes you. Like, straight people can find the opposite sex attractive and no one questions it, even if they've never kissed, dated etc. But you can't be bi unless you've "proved it". It's ridiculous. (And I blame mine on Xena lol)
@@rayleighritz5107 It's so true. It took me a long time to realize that I was Bi and that not every girl has serious crushes on/attraction to other girls as so often people write it off as a phase or faking cause it's hot or whatever. I had these kinds of feelings my whole life and I wrote it off until the last couple years. Now I see so much more bi representation on youtube and it got me to really start thinking about it all. Of course then I realized how much biphobia there is from all sides and it's a bit disheartening.
Now that I'm thinking about it, it would have been cool to see Addie meeting Mozart's sister who was very talented. She too is a woman forgotten by history, even though she wasn't cursed. It would have been such an interesting concept. I really enjoyed this book but this video really is making me think about it in a different light.
Ultimately, it feels like the book plays it safe and ends up being less impactful than it could have been had she put in the effort to make the story more realistic and expensive via inclusivity.
As a white person writing my own fantasy series, I opted to design each character and their personality and backstory before adding race, gender, and sexuality. I just didn't want to add any biases or base their character on their race, gender, or sexuality. While I do think its important to recognize how identity can influence how society treats people, its also important to remember that identity doesn't define everything about the character. ie. Being gay isn't a personality trait, but it can and does have an effect on life experiences. I will definitely get senstivity readers though because I am human and will probably mess some things up along the way.
All my fav fantasy movies and books always have poc as the spunky best friend and never the main character. Even when the race doesnt matter it always seems as though white is the default
@@Simmerdownidc yeah I completely agree with you. That was something I really tried to be aware of too. I have a lot of world mythology influences in my books so as it turns out, very few of them ended up being white. Only a few side characters with Nordic backgrounds. It wasn't intentional, but just seemed appropriate after everything was mapped out.
@@Simmerdownidc Exactly this. It's like being POC or LGBT is part of their "quirky personality/character" instead of just... like a thing that happens to be part of their life.
She wrote that Addie knew Swiss language ....SWISS LANGUAGE . I think she just wasn’t willing to do enough research for this book and took the easy way out.
Although tbf as a German Swiss German is oftentimes referred to as that, spoken by the majority in Switzerland, and hardly understandable for someone from Austria or Germany. Of course French and Italian are spoken there too, I just meant to say that Swiss German is close to its own language. (For me it is almost as hard to understand as Dutch)
This was my main problem with the story. Those 300 years were full of tyranny, unfairness, slavery, poverty, hunger, and undeserved suffering. And Addie had the perfect skills necessary to alleviate it: she could have stolen from the rich and given to the starving poor, freed slaves, freed people unjustly imprisoned, assassinated Hitler quite easily, and so on! Instead of doing all these things and filling her life with joy and meaning, she just wallows and dates endless numbers of people. And then she wonders why she's feeling depressed!
When you said “ I’m also not interested in a book of a white author who felt obligated to write people of color because of the pressure to write diversity” in 4:40 I felt that, thank you for saying it.
I'm sorry for replying a year later, but "I don't even have preferences in romance at this point, I just want to feel emotional and physical closeness" sexuality should get its name and flag, because I definitely identify as this
whenever someone asks for my advice when writing POC i just tell them to do their own research all that free information and you're asking me? i dont even know how to speak my own language
I might be wrong but I think it's not meant in a "free labour" but a "I'm interested in your perspective" kind of way. I get that you don't have to aswer (especially if their way of asking seems nosy or rude) but to codemn someone for trying to initiate a conversation seems to be counterproductive.
@@Ella-iw4lo agreed. if they're just asking for an opinion after having done their researches to be sure they're not writing something insensitive i think it's okay to ask, though they still aren't owed any answer because poc people aren't their teachers. but if instead of doing researches they're asking someone because they're too lazy to do some basic efforts they need to be shut up immediately.
I think this is what makes cindy’s channel so exciting. We would never know when videos talking about serious topics would pop out. Last few videos we were talking about food and movies then boom, we now go to more sensitive topics. I love this dynamic!
this book also doesn't vibe with me because not only did she not mention the atrocities of non white people but she didn't really talk about atrocities that white people suffered as well. to me, if you can name drop historical figures and their positive attributes than you can also acknowledge their faults the horrific impacts of their actions on human life. if v. e. schwab genuinely doesn't care about including poc in her books than fine thats her choice but she also needs to accept that her beautiful black woman isn't enough and that her audience is only white women
I mean, she has stereotyped Europe by leaving all eastern European countries out since the Czech Republic isn't aesthetic enough. Apparently, Europe consists of France, Italy, the Netherlands and Great Britain, at least that's what I get from Addie LaRue
@@onetrickponysona2613 absolutely! Which is why I think it's sad that it doesn't get mentioned enough. But at least we got Daughter of Smoke and Bone, the whole book takes place in Prague
in the beginning of the book she does mention Prague, but sadly she never talks of it again and I was already looking forward to learning more about it
as an aspiring (white) storyteller with a lot of characters of colour, this was so insightful, both affirming things I've already heard and gave me new things to think about. thank you!
From my pov as a half chinese book lover I personally love when I see a character who is similar to me even when written by a non Asian author, so long as there is thought and research put into it without just focusing on the hardships, obviously I don’t speak for everyone but I love seeing pieces of my culture scattered across stories
@@jade728 I mean, Guy Gavriel Kay has fantasy (ish) books set in China, but he actually spent like a year there researching. I agree with Cindy, that it's a really slippery slope if you start demanding how much an author's background has to reflect their story in order to be allowed to write it.
"I'm not interested in reading a book where a white author felt obligated to write people of colour because of the pressure to write diversely." *coughs couhgs* maggie stiefvater when she added an asian character in the last book of the raven cycle boys.
@@carous_g for some godforsaken reason i mixed up sjm and leigh bardugo for like a second when i read your comment and my heart just did a little spike of anxiety before i realised i'm a fucking idiot
I think it's a bit too easy to just let authors off by saying "oh, I can't write about POC, because I wouldn't be able to do it justice" because there *is* still systemic oppression, and books by white authors tend to have more reach and open more doors. For instance, according to Variety Addie LaRue has already been optioned for movie rights, which means that her disinclination to write roles for POC will lead to less acting roles for POC and less jobs for POC. It's not particularly fair to limit these opportunities because she wanted to "stay in her lane", and she is able to do so because she is from a position of privilege. I also don't think the only option for including POC is having her necessarily go to other countries. There were prominent POC in Europe at the time. For instance, she could have met Alexandre Dumas, the writer of the Count of Monte Cristo, a black man who was whitewashed by history. Like, disclaimer I'm white, but it still just seems too passive to give white authors a pass for continuing to perpetuate the erasure of POC in fiction just because they aren't POC.
Agreed, if a male author said he just doesn't write women characters because he couldn't do them justice, I would never read his books again. It would show me he doesn't see women as whole people who can be written lots of different ways. The same goes for race. It's an author's job to think deeply and not stay in their narrow worldview so I wouldn't give anyone a pass.
assuming that V E Shwab did in fact purposely decide not to include POC. i have a feeling she probably completely forgot (about having) to include them -- which could be considered a problem in and of itself. but tbh, i never did notice the whiteness of the story UNTIL cindy mentioned it. idk what that says about the kind of books i read, or if im not really much of a smart reader but. anyways, what ur trying to say is that white authors should try to write about poc people(not necessarily their struggles with racism/oppression) even if they're afraid they wont be able to do it justice?
I had no idea Dumas was a POC! I've looked him up briefly when I was reading TCOMC, and didn't recognise from his portrait his Afro-Caribbean background. Cool involvement of different cultures there, but also an interestingly twisted view that the Count has about the African slave, more specifically how he "acquired" him. But maybe that revulsion is Dumas wanted to elicit by writing that, and encourage us to realise how fucked it was (and slavery is)
On the other hand, there is lots of whitewashing in TV and movies. One could just as easily put the responsibility of allowing POC entry into that business by simply casting people who were white in the original story as POC instead. Adaptations are never 100% faithful, and this is one point I can easily see them taking that path.
It's not surprising to me that Addie didn't notice the struggles of others -- her bizarre form of isolation caused selfishness, I think, and it makes sense that it would since empathy is built via connection (at least, at first...later that skill can be applied elsewhere). So it makes sense to me that she's SO selfish, especially early on in the story, and then consumed with saving the one she loves.
I mean you should probably write them as a normal, multi-dimensional, person. But if you stray towards sensitive subjects, do your research and talk to people in that group.
"Eurocentric" tends to mean "Central Europe", but Central Europe is not the whole of Europe. Historically speaking, there were a lot of shit happening in Northern and Eastern Europe between the 1700s and 2000s that are not even mentionned in the book. Also, and hear me out, there were white oppressed people in Europe up until the 1990s esp. in Northern and Eastern Europe (hello, Ottoman Empire and USSR). Focusing only on the "cool" central European countries is more than whitewashing, it's privilege-washing. And I do get the argument that it would have been worse if V.E. wrote about cultures she did not really understand. But two counterarguments here : 1. In this case, does she consider that she knows what the French society or the Dutch society were in the 1700s ? Do we consider that her research is enough just because she speaks about central Europe ? 2. If you are going to imagine a 500 pages semi-historical fiction about a main character who can do almost as she pleases and move around continents, but you are not going to bother with non-sexy countries, just fucking change the concept. Make her stay within a radius of something or whatever, idk.
Yeah... I have family in Greece, and to this day there are still scars (physical and social) of the ottoman occupation. Or hell, even the nazi invasion. My grandfather legit has childhood trauma from ww2. then there’s the brits taking ancient artifacts and still not giving them back... There’s a reason they’re not huge fans of much of Europe lol.
I compleeeeeeetely agree. I think the basic concept could have been phenomenal in someone else’s hands. As it is now, it felt too twee (her portrayal of modern New York was... lacking) and self-indulgent. It was like she didn’t even crack open a basic survey book about any history at all. And it’s a shame, because writing historical fiction is about building a foundation of facts that you can use to develop all of the people and places you create. Learning the complex realities gives you a toolkit for carving a more believable world. Without that foundation, without those tools, nothing stands up to scrutiny.
As an asexual writer, I write characters of all different sexualities, but ask me to write a sex scene and I don't think it would be enjoyable or relatable for anyone. The solution - I don't write sex scenes. On occasion, I write romance, and I consider sexual intimacy in why and how characters make decisions, but it will never be a major plot line in a story I write because I'm not the right person to write that. I draw a very loose comparison as sexuality does not impact as many facets of life as race can but, as a human being, I feel like I could write from the perspective of any other human being, as long as I take the time to properly construct and understand the character's background, experience and outlook on life. It is my responsibility as a human to educate myself on how race impacts real people, and as a writer, to make sure my characters are believable and realistic. However, as a white woman, I feel if I wrote a scene focusing on a POC character's intimate and complex reflections on race, it would read unrealistically because that is a depth of experience I could never understand. So, I wouldn't write a story where a scene like that is necessary (in addition, an unrealistic representation could do more harm than good). A man saying that he does not write woman characters because he 'does not understand' them, or white-washing stories (such as in Addie LaRue, however I haven't read it), is wrong on many levels, but superficially, it's bad writing. What you've observed is a massive plot hole in the story, and an obvious one at that, which shows that VE Schwab didn't do the research that you and many others in the comments have managed to do. For a book with themes of erasure and legacy, for the author herself to omit POCs is almost laughably ignorant. If VE Schwab did not feel comfortable writing that, then she should have put down her pen and hoped that the idea found a writer who could do it justice, instead of requiring her readers to suspend their belief and, ironically, further erasing the achievements of POC throughout history.
I don't think that a man not writing women is anywhere near the same as a white person not writing POC. The man's world is literally inhabited by 50% women and he likely interacts with many many women in varying degrees of intimacy. A white person on the other hand even if they live in a diverse community might not actually interact with many POC and have very few close relationships with POC so that could severely impact their level of understanding and ability to write a POC. Also themes of erasure and legacy might be relevant to POC but they arent exclusively an issue of POC, they are also a women's issue and also a human experience. Everyone to some extent has the potential to worry about being forgotten and what legacy they will leave behind. Just because it could also relate to POC doesnt mean that any book written on the subject has to explore it from that perspective. Authors need to just be allowed to write about what they want. Claiming issues for marginalized communities and mandating they only be explored from that angle isn''t fair. Forcing an author to write diversity when they aren't familiar with diversity isnt fair. No author is required to research a topic in order to write a book. Why can't they just write a story from their perspective and those that want to read from that perspective will and those that don't, wont?
@@gallifreyuniversity Agreed, especially when it is a fictional novel. I expect research to be put into a non fictional work but not for fictional authors. They can pour in as much research as they want if they want to appeal to a larger and wider audience, but if they want to write something entirely from their perspective and experience, it is very much fine with me.
I feel like trying and failing to include POCs *respectfully* in your work is still better than intentionally not including any at all. Obviously neither is ideal though.
Trying and failing in good faith is much better, especially if you accept the criticism as it comes and growing as a storyteller. Not trying avoids writing some problematic things, but you may not grow as a writer or a person.
This comments section turned into a cesspool of performatism. People saying white people have no right to write poc characters. People saying white people are racist for NOT writing poc characters. People saying writers who write poc characters referring a lot to the fact that they're poc is stereotyping. People saying writers who write poc characters and don't get into poc issues with that character are erasing poc experiences. Conclusion? You can't win and should write whatever you want to write with good intentions and a little bit of research. There will always be someone who's angry and has a twitter account who will have a rant about you regardless.
@@withcindy shdhjs this is the first time I've seen my people be called spicy whites and I'm loving it Edit: though ironically, russian and ukrainian cuisine is pretty bland, can't speak for other slavs
@@veram1545 That's where the South Slavs come through. I wouldn't call it very spicy, but there is some spice as most like to add garlic in things (you know, for vampires)
Just started watching but I already wanna chime in already (lol) bc what you said at the very start abt how precluding ppl from writing characters of certain races can open a discussion on who is x enough to write abt the experience really spoke to me; I'm mixed, and I grew up around asian (chinese) culture, but I have lived my life being read as a white person. Somehow, I always feel this awkwardness when I write an asian character, especially when it's in a context where I have to do it from an appearance perspective and not just clearly saying where they're from. This has always bothered me: though I'm white, so much of my family isn't, my own sister looks very clearly asian, how come I have such difficulty describing my own people? I think the answer is we often learn how to write from previous writings, not really the world around us. And the lack of asian rep in the media at large means there is no language for us (besides the one charged with orientalism and weird food metaphors; almond eyes, seriously?); it's shameful for me to feel like I don't have the language to describe my own people. All this to say, I think our perception of the world is often shaped by the perception of the world from others, which we consume in art, and it's most important for that world to be as large and inclusive as possible.
About the questioning your sexuality while writing thing--I spent my first draft going from "why is it so easy for me to write a character with anxiety" to "oops, turns out I've had undiagnosed anxiety for years!"
I think addie la rue has a good enough representation for a romance. It is not a historical fiction, she did not set out to tell the worlds history, its a book about addie and her curse.
Im imagining right now if addie had run into a black person being whipped during slavery, what could she have done? Run towards it and stop it at first, but when they removed her from the place everything would be forgotten and back to usual. She is powerless in the book, so impotent it is annoying. I dont think it d be a good idea for VE Schwab to explain such problematic subjects that are to her personal experience just to then have addie do nothing about it.
I feel that Addie, even if she was just travelling throughout Europe and New york would have seen and experienced so much than just a bunch of white ppl? We know how for houndreds of years Romani and jewish people have been prosecuted and discriminated against, we know how badly literally anyone the french didn't deem "white enough" were treated. What are just the Odds she just walks around and meets Shakespeare and Voltaire too have a chat but sees literally nothing of people dying in the streets? I think the book is alright but from the premise I kinda wanted something less introspective and more focused on being human I guess? We will all dissapear one day, why not base the book around the people who will be forgotten, instead of thoose who through their cultural impact will essentially "live on" for longer than anyone else?
There is a book coming out called “Appropriate: A Provocation” by Paisley Rekdal and it’s about the question you ask. Should people write about experiences they cannot speak for. It’ll be an interesting read I think. I talk about it in my Big List - Nonfiction - Day 2 video. I think writers should give it a look! I know that I want to. (If it makes any difference to anyone - I do believe the author is a white woman)
Personal take, as a "person of color" (I'm sorry, but I hate that term): It depends. But mostly, either you DON'T write about that experience, but support an author who identifies with it and lift their voice instead (#ownvoices), OR you write about it, but first you do extensive research, interview people, and hire sensitivity readers to help you validate that you're writing accurately and respectfully. My honest (and maybe hot) take is that true empathy is very difficult to have, unless you've survived a similar experience to what you're writing about... And even then. In the end, there are many different perspectives, even within the same groups of people. I just don't think there's a way a white author could ever understand, feel, and care about all the details and nuances. Just like I can't identify with the white experience, lol, even as a light-skinned Puerto Rican. For instance, even though all of these are POC: what an African American in New York goes through every day isn't the same as what a Newyorrican does; how a Puerto Rican raised in the mainland experiences their Puerto Rican identity is different from how an island-born and raised Puerto Rican does; and even how a black versus a white Puerto Rican experiences life is very different. So POC experiences are still so, so diverse, and I can only account for my own, as an island-born and raised Puerto Rican who recently moved to the mainland, now experiencing a more overt form of racism than what we have back home. Obviously, my answer is a little too simple for such a complex topic, though. I'll check out the book and videos you mentioned. :)
@@withcindy Yeah, I definitely think it's a topic that requires multiple viewpoints from, including nonbinary authors, and LGBTQIA +, and etc., authors along with authors of color and of other cultures as well. But, it's a good start, even with a white author, as long as she says, "DO THE FUCKING RESEARCH AND DO IT CORRECTLY."
@@jessatlife It really is such a complex topic because then it's also about the horribly skewed publishing system. I agree that Own Voices should be the go to when reading a story. I know I personally notice when white authors are writing something outside of their experience that it feels off. I just read Radio Silence, for example, recently and she refers to someone who has dreadlocks as just "dreadlock", (pages 470 and 471) as if that were their name and it felt completely unnecessary and inappropriate. But yes, I think everything should be Own Voices, really, and that publishing shouldn't be so skewed because then white people wouldn't get the praise they do for writing characters outside of their own experience. For example, " American Dirt", which on booktube and some other platforms did get called out on, but booktube is such a small percentage of the people who read that and it's not enough to just call them out on here. I mean, it was in Oprah's Book Club! Even I feel awkward talking about the situation because I'm white and I never want to come across as ignorant or part of the problem. So, I really just try to pay attention to who is writing what- which is something I haven't always done, I will admit that. But I am paying attention and learning.
As a black woman, I don’t mind if white authors don’t write black characters. 1. It’s fiction. 2. I can enjoy a piece without seeing myself represented in it. 3. I read a lot of black literature and I don’t always expect white people to be represented there. If you want to read about melanated characters, support melanated writers. That’s inclusion.
Maybe an author of color should revisit this story idea or make it into a show about a woman of color goes through history being forgotten but writing stories for other women who were forgotten. V.E. has provided a good outline for others to follow. I think there's some merit in that despite the lack of cultural and racial depth they provided.
I think it's great that we are critically analyzing this topic, as a 15-year-old South-Asian American girl I get close to no representation in my favorite novels, and before I came across this channel it just became the norm to me. I don't think that's okay and I think it's a sensitive topic to play with. Especially because the last thing I want is for there to be totally stereotypical characters just for the sake of diversity.
Hey, I'm a 15-year-old girl as well! I remember, when I was younger, almost forcing myself to watch certain shows or read certain novels because "look! They have an Indian character!" I was so deprived of representation that I forced myself to put up with caricatures of Indian characters like Ravi Ross on _Jessie_ or Baljeet on _Phineas and Ferb._ I would have preferred having no Indian characters to having clichés and stereotypes.
@@s29nv1sr1 I had a very similar experience! I grew up forcing myself to laugh at the jokes poking fun at Ravi and Baljeet but they weren't really that funny. They were based in stereotypes that had a negative influence thousands of brown kids who were part of their audience. I love Phineas and Ferb but I felt cheated with the character of Baljeet. Did you have to deal with being called Dora? Or maybe Jasmine? It was a common occurrence for me. It's worse because if you enjoy STEM and reading you are inadvertently fitting the stereotype. Making those characters obsessed with their grades and teased for enjoying science definitely did not have a good influence on me.
@@anushkasinha6984 Hmm, I didn't have to deal with being called Dora or Jasmine, thankfully. But everything else I could definitely relate to - I actually _want_ to be a doctor when I grow up, and have a passion for math and science, so I definitely fit the "model/nerd minority" stereotype. It was definitely easy for people to taunt me for being so nerdy. I also don't understand why showrunners and writers assume that brown kids' entire personalities are being nerdy, like with Baljeet and Ravi. Even as someone who defines myself as "nerdy," I'm still an effing person with interests outside of academics.
@@s29nv1sr1 I totally agree it's a toxic stereotype that really needs to stop. Do you know any books/series with good south Asian characters (I've already read Six of Crows and Inej is my everything)? I'm having a hard time finding good stories that don't fall under these stereotypes while having engaging plots
@@anushkasinha6984 Dang, that's a hard question. As for shows, I can only think of one show with an Indian lead that actually focuses on Indian culture and representation, and that's _Never Have I Ever._ But that wasn't really for me. I find that a bunch of Indian rep, especially in shows, tends to come in the form of side characters, or mixed Indian characters, like in _New Girl,_ _Parks and Recreation,_ and _The Office._ I haven't seen a lot of Indian representation in books either, but one novel that I read recently that I really liked, which also featured nice Indian representation was Pooja Singh in the novel _Tweet Cute._ Pooja's not the main character, but she's still a well-rounded character in her own right and was written like an ACTUAL TEENAGE HUMAN BEING with actual hobbies. (Just a heads up, she does come across as a minor antagonist to one of the main characters in the beginning, but she gets redemption towards the end of the book.) So I'd definitely recommend that. If I find out anymore, I'll come back and edit the comment too.
It's not the two syllables that's the problem, because actual Chinese people have names with only two syllables, or even the name "Cho" or the surname "Chang", it's the combination of the two..."Cho" could a Japanese name and "Chang" is a Chinese surname so it's just kinda strange I guess.
said author also decided (and don't take my word for it, i've just heard this) that the only jewish character (who she only mentioned on twitter AFTER the books had been published for years) would have "goldberg" as his last name. LIKE?? I don't know anybody at my temple named goldberg but that's not the point, jewish people have other names miss 👁👄👁 not to mention there are tons of jewish people who don't have "jewish" names, because we come from all around the world!
V. E. Schwab's books aren't really known for diversity, but i guess by now y'all know the "Shades of Magic" in which the main character (who's white, of course) lives in a kingdom ruled by a black family and was adopted by said family. i've read it a few years ago and i don't remember much of it, the trilogy seemed more okay than Addie LaRue in this matter. her writing and character development is quite good so i hope her future books will improve
I think representation is really important. I recently watched She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, which is an animated Netflix show with some of the best LGBTQ+ representation. I didn’t realize how important it was until I found myself crying while watching it. Partly because the romance is so beautiful, but also because I felt seen. I’m white, but I want everyone else to feel just as seen.
Same. Especially with the diverse representation of feminity in the show. Everyone was just vibin in their own unique relationship with their feminity and no one really needed to become more "masculine" to be a hero. Seeing ladies just being themselves and being heros honestly made me realize how lacking that concept is in media. Who knew a kids show on Netflix would honestly be one of the most personally empowering pieces of media I've consumed 🤷
A big issue of this book was misrepresentation of Jewish people and I feel like nobody is talking about that. Honestly I wish that VE had not written anything at all about a religion/culture she clearly doesn't know or care to research, rather than make up facts about said culture (which is already well established.) I know not many people know about the specifics of Judaism but I don't understand why VE chose to not do any research at all about the culture of her love interest. (A few examples: going to Yom Kippur dinner with the family? Yom Kippur is a fasting holiday, where you do not eat or drink from sunset the night of, until sunset the next day, and you spend the day praying. Another MASSIVE issue was the love interest denouncing his Judaism because he doesn't believe in god. Judaism is a culture beyond religion, and there is a massive number of people who identify as Jewish without the religious aspect of it, but there is a huge problem with people thinking that they cannot be Jewish without following the religion of Judaism. You can tell from someone's DNA that they are an Ashkenazi Jew. It is arguably a race. ALSO, why is it that her "diversity" by including a Jew, specifically including a guy who denounced his Judaism? That's not representation, that's just further pushing the damaging narrative that the culture of Judaism should be stamped out.) I don't say this to detract from the lack of representation you discussed, but to say that if VE wanted to truly avoid potentially problematic representation, she should have either 1) done research on the miniscule amount of diversity she chose to "represent", or 2) just kept it completely self reflective and non denominational. So I don't think that's even a fair argument to make because she DIDN'T stay in her lane, she went ahead and chose to misrepresent a race anyway.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I just wanted to say maybe it could have been the breaking fast dinner ?? Also it seemed like he wasn’t denouncing his Jewish roots just didn’t believe in God and didn’t want to take part of the religion. Edit- actually it seems like Yom Kippur was only mentioned once and no dinner was planned?
I dont know much about judaism but noticed the lack of research about history and the art world which was such a big part of the book, that definitely put me off and made me doubt all the other facts so I totally see your point. Research was lacking throughout the book.
“Girl...he was racist...”-what I want to yell at my white English Lit teachers who stan certain dead authors 😭 Edit: I know how to separate the art from the author, guys. It’s the people who don’t that I’m side-eyeing. Hence the comment lol
That black girl was so stunning because it was Addie's first time meeting a black person. LOL
DJASKLDJSALKDKLSADJKLASDJFSKL
I have no further comments 💀🤳
Damn, do you mean the first Highlander movie was more diverse than this?
HELP MEEEEE
I'M DYING 💀
"If I say anything stupid and end up getting cancelled I may as well get paid for it."
Yes queen get that sponsorship
why else do u think i sponsor every video? its just a safety net before i inevitably get cancelled someday
Wait what if that's what the woman who wrote American Dirt was thinking?💀💀💀
@@jimkaragkounis4750 omg now that u mention it 😭
dude, Addie connecting with characters that were seen as invisible by society would have elevated this book to literature if done well. What an idea.
RIGHT!!!!!! OMG
I WAS GONNA SAY!! that would've been crazy
Except schwab is white, and it seems like everyone on book tube agrees that white people shouldn’t write about racial oppression. If addie connected with a black woman whose achievements were constantly ignored, the comments would call it shallow and making light of racial oppression.
@@josie3221 it's almost like the internet isn't a great place to facilitate productive discourse or something
No way dude. Fun to speculate about but that is in reality a terrible idea and would NEVER go over well, no matter how “well” it was done. You really wanna read a story about a privileged white girl traveling around to Africa and Asia and comparing the curse she got from a mystical demon to be forgotten by the people she meets, to systemic oppression?? Lmao. Imo Schwab did this story the only way it COULD realistically be written and published, by staying solely in her own lane.
Cindy talking about how writing her book about lesbian characters made her consider her own sexuality made me have a flashback to the time I started writing a story cis and finished trans.
i love that journey for u
i remember writing a gay love story set in ancient greece that didn’t start out gay it just came out naturally, but like midway through or after writing it i turned out to be a sapphic so
Literally same?? I started making a story when I was younger with two gay guys at the center. Couple years later and surprise! I’m a guy now and I’m gay as fuck. Still writing that story, still love these dumbasses to bits.
Cindy talking about writing about a sapphic-focused love story and then questioning her sexuality made me think back to how it took me writing a few bisexual protagonists in relationships with women before I realized that I, a cis woman who thought I was completely straight, was in fact also into women.
Me at 11 writing a story with only LGBTQ characters and pretty much obsessing over the lesbians not realising I was gay as hell till three years later...
cindy: here's a counterargument to my counterargument to my counterargument to my counterargument to my counterargument to my counterargu
some points were made!
and people still question that she's ENFP 🙄🙄
@@cryptikkcries wait what? Cindy's an enfp? I thought she'd be more of an entp
i think a good example of a white person writing non-white characters is Alice Oseman writing Radio Silence. She had white, mixed, Asian, and (i think) Indian characters in her book and as a POC, i couldn't find anything wrong or stereotypical with it because she didn't write about their racial struggles as she herself couldn't relate to them, so she wrote about them how you would write about normal people, like struggles with high school, sexualities, families, etc. because then it didn't seem like forced diversity or performative activism, it just seemed like the plot unfolded and the characters just _happened_ to be diverse because that's how it literally is; people just exist.
I'm reading her webcomic Heartstopper and I love her writing so much. Every month, she donates the proceeds she gets from there to different charities. Last month she raised almost $800 to support black trans people in her community. I've been wanting to read her novels for awhile now, but I just haven't gotten to them yet.
this is exactly what i thought when watching the video!! radio silence is one of my favorite books ever and the fact that it had poc as main characters was just a plus for me, it felt very genuine and she cared about all of her characters equally which is why they felt like real people instead o a cutout of poc
@@ktalexander75 that's so cool of her! these are the type of writers whose works i am always willing to buy
From your comment alone, wouldn't that play into a non-racist utopia? I don't know if that's the right term, but it has been criticized too when white authors don't acknowledge the struggles their characters of color would realistically have.
But I haven't read that book or know the author, so...
@@randomuserwitharandomname6183 Hmmm I'm not OP but I think this honestly is a complicated question because I agree with what you mean but on the other hand I would say 99% of white people are not equipped to write about the problems POC face. I think yes they should learn how to write POC and that includes the oppression but in the present time that's just very unlikely to be done well. Someone in a diff comment rightfully mentioned that POC also deserve escapism (although I've never read Radio Silence so idk how much it's based in reality) but also on the other hand art can't truly be separated from reality because the world we live in and our experiences will always shape our art. Basically there is not definitive answer, I guess in a way it depends on the whole work itself and what the value the colourblindness holds in the context of the story (like are they all fairies living in a made up land who just happen to look human or are they kids growing up in the suburbs, etc.)
“The Whiteness of Addie LaRue” sounds like a complex metaphor for your cooking.
u would be right cuz im gonna cook bland pasta today
@@withcindy it's what cindy's partner hears from the lounge when cindy decides to cook for the night: 'how's the dinner going?'
'the whiteness of addie larue'
'bruh, wut'
'the wine's in, i'm adding the roux'
'poggers'
@@withcindy but have you had pasta with cream cheese and garlic salt 😳
@@withcindy ad cheese and shm0ke before, you deserve better than bland pasta!
@@withcindy Girl lemme cook for you like some ghost that haunts your kitchen
Cindy out here triple tasking, offending booktubers, making that coin, and questioning her identity, what an icon
i like to multitask
my short chaotic attention span could never
Also being a chaos agent in a @strangeaeons + abby classic fanfic.
@@withcindy my guess is that u also procrastinating
cindy makes argument: *agrees*
cindy makes counter-argument: *agrees again*
cindy makes counter-argument to counter-argument: *starts sweating and nods profusely*
cindy makes counter-argument to the counter-argument to the first counter-argument:
i have no mouth and i must scream
If diversity feels forced, it's not forced diversity, it's bad writing.
well said!!!
A word.
Oh hey didn't think I'd see you here! Love your channel
omg a youtuber i like watches another youtuber i like?? what a crossover
I disagree. It's definitely possible to have diverse people in the story for "diversity" reasons even though it wouldn't make sense narratively.
At this point the channel is just called "withcindy" cause even Cindy doesn't know what the hell is happening either.
it reflects my aimless direction
@@withcindy did you change your name cause of this comment
👀
👄
@@fashionovawigs no it was changed before😂But that would be something cindy would do
She already changed her name a few vids ago, I think around the time she did her latest movie review?
i didnt even notice the channel name changed
do people forget that all writers do is write people that aren't (really) them? one doesn't need to be a serial killer to write one in a story. I'm sure real serial killers read fictional stories about serial killers and go "that's not how *I* do things - I'm offended!"
I think it‘s way more complicated than that.
@@Alina_Schmidt perhaps
Exactly
I thought she totally wrote a character who was exactly her. She sounded like she was symbolically infusing this fantasy with her own feelings about one night stands or something.
I would say that autors essentially always write about themselves. At least I do. My characters have facets of my personality and experiences. They share pieces of my mind like pizza slices. Usually one character gets more of me than the others. I don't think I would do well or even enjoyed writing about someone that is my complete oposite.
I feel like a lot of the problem lies in the fact that media usually (and perhaps unintentionally) assumes that ethnic, LGBT+, disabled, neurodivergent, etc. people dont face the same universal problems that all humans have.
When we actually see a minority as the protagonist of a story, most of the time the entire plot centers on the ways society oppresses them, and the challenges they face in overcoming those problems. These are stories that deserve to be told, but they end up being the only stories we ever hear about them. White people get to have the "normal" stories, and everyone else has to be an inspirational underdog that also acts as an avatar of their culture. Thats an unfair situation because no singular character can represent an entire population. On one side you will always have people in the minority group who are disappointed that the character doesnt personally resonate with them. On the other, you have people outside of the minority who cannot relate to the struggles at all, and probably wont engage with the story to begin with.
Personally, I like representation as expressed in movies like Soul, Us, and Spiderverse. The fact that the leads in those stories are black has very little to do with the plot actually, yet they dont shy away from showing their culture either. Their racial background is completely incidental to the story, and as a result they get to be characters that can stand up on their own.
For me, thats kind of the goal of representation: to normalize the existence and experiences of other groups of people, and show that we arent so different at the end of the day. To make them feel like people rather than a box to check off. Also its just nice to have escapism. Its kind of depressing how the only time black people get to have a significant role is when theyre being brutalized or discriminated against. Like I get enough of that shit in real life, you know? Can I just pretend that Im a superhero for an hour and half lol?
I totally agree!!
Beautifully said!
Agreed and same.
I wanna see Native characters who aren’t just being sterotypes or oppressed.
Maybe I just want a Native character to go on some magical quest and fight monsters, or have to deal with the everyday grind of being unhappy with not achieving their dream and deciding “hey, I’m quitting my job at 7 eleven imma go be a game developer.”
yea, i feel like when the only plot line for poc's and minorites is oppression, it seems like the creators are showing that our opression is the only important part of us. idk if im making sense, but it feels like we as people arent important, and people only care about our opression. That's why i love it when we get poc and minority characters that are actually fully fleshed out
Artistvsworld I don't know if you've read it yet but Percy Jackson and the Heroes of Olympus has a Cherokee main character who actually does go on quests and fight monsters and stuff. I think the representation is kind of controversial (I can't really speak for it since I'm white) but if you read it, I would recommend reading Percy Jackson and the Olympians first since that's the first series.
"so beautiful and whimsical, but it doesn't include people of colour" so dark academia basically
literally i LOVE dark academia aesthetics to the point where its influenced my style but i hate like 90% of dark academia type media
PUT POC IN DARK ACADEMIA U COWARDS
@@withcindy I think there's one poc in if we were villains and he has an exaggerated addiction problem 💀 we cannot win
Oop
@@mimirants7935 also people talk about lgbt rep in dark academia but then its like. implying some dead guy was maybe sort of gay??? like ive read fanfic oneshots with more rep
As a black woman, I agree with one of your points. I don’t want diversity that feels forced. I would rather you just not try. And with that, I won’t criticize this book for leaving out people of color. I also do not mind when white authors write people of color. Matt Ruff is a white author that wrote lovecraft country and he wrote all black main characters VERY well in my opinion.
I wish more of book tube understood this
@@rainydays3215 As long as they can actually write well. Mollycoddling people for the sake of diversity does no favours whatsoever, not to mention the double standards it potentially brings.
Matt Ruff did such a good job I thought he was black. That was a really good book!
I think people should try to write diversity but not write oppression that is not theirs
I agree!
Definitely!! Especially when that oppression takes over the stories of their diverse casts, as is too often prone to happen. Like... people's existences don't revolve around their oppression. I'm gay but my life doesn't consist solely of getting hatecrimed.
@@eugeniabukhman8533 I totally agree, sometimes people just want to be the hero of a story. Minorities deserve escapism too
Then they will be critized for Not portraying the oppression.
How they gonna write a lived experience that is not theirs?
This might be a “hot take” (god kill me) but you can have a character that isn’t the same race as you because race isn’t a personality, just like how sexuality isn’t a personality. You can write diverse characters but the personality shouldn’t be their race or sexuality, you can write a gay CHARACTER but not a GAY character, you shouldn’t be putting emphasis on what makes them diverse because then it’ll seem like your just making that character for tokenism.
100% agree with this.
preach
Exactly! these things are traits. Especially depending what your story is about. If it's focused on fantasy or sci-fi, etc, your character shouldn't revolve around traits that don't even affect the story. I'm not saying someone's identities won't affect their experiences (it definitely will, especially if the story is set in our world), but it shouldn't be all they are.
i totally agree!
Thank you!! 👏
People shouldn’t be restricted to only write about their own race, culture, country, ethnicity, sex, gender, etc. It sets a bad precedent.
Urg, if it was, then I would only be allowed to write about white, pastry Danish people.... 😂Or maybe Vikings?
And at that point you could argue that a writer can only write about things they have personally experienced in order to portray it accurately, which makes no sense.
I agree I do think if you writing from a race, culture, gender, sexuality or an experience you don't have first hand knowledge about I think it's really important you research and get stories of people who do and you can find them online cause if you are using someone else's story you need to do it justice
There was a Vietnamese UA-cam a month or so back who went after the Armchair Historian I believe it was because he wasn’t Vietnamese and he shouldn’t be talking about Vietnamese history in response to him making a video on the Vietnam War. It was like girl, it’s history and white people were _involved._
Ignite the Inferno even if there weren’t it’s ridiculous. I’m saying this as someone who’s not white. With anything you’re going to talk about to a large group of people you definitely need to do your research but saying there are things you can and can’t do because of your race, etc., is a real ridiculous slippery slope. First we say white people cant talk about non-white stuff, but then it spreads. I’ve seen Indian people say black women wearing Indian hair, using henna, and copying Bollywood dance moves is cultural appropriation. Soon everyone will be tearing each their apart. Instead of understanding diversity we’ll be dividing ourselves by our differences further. It’ll be shackles instead of freedom.
It's like Addie forgot POC existed just like they forgot her 💀💀
djakjdkasjkldsjklas
Best comment
STOPPPPP😭😭
@@bambi5489
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AAAAHH
"what is a white girl going to do in Africa? pass out bibles??" as an African, you had me 😂😂😂
Girl same... Addie would not be remembered in Africa
My thoughts at that comment were that making her a less-than-admirable character at that less-than-admirable time would have added a nice degree of realism, as well as an opportunity later to watch a character grow as she recognizes the problematic aspects of her earlier actions.
At least then she could confront her racism and maybe some black woman would slap her and then forget about her entirely lmao
@@TheDecentDescent South African over here. Yes, we do have wypipo in SA, no need to attack the OP though
@@TheDecentDescent There's white people from Africa and then there's white people going to Africa. Two different kinds of white
Addie LaRude: _{witnesses horrific racist events in history}_
Additionally Addie LaRude: "I don't know that man, he could be walking down the street and I wouldn't know a thing"
"if i write a POC as a white person, will it be seen as stereotypical?" it sure will if you write them as a stereotype lmao
As a working to be black author, I love having diverse characters. But the biggest thing when writing characters to me is to write the personality first. The writer of Grey's anatomy (who's black) said she just wrote the characters as personalities, she said anyone could play those roles it wasn't just for certain races and I think it's good to make it like that. But once you do know what race the characters are and they aren't the race you are, make sure to do some research. That's what I do. But I need the motivation to finish my novel bc girl, school is stressful.
i totally agree! i like the method of writing with the characters' personality in mind first, then adjusting for the nuances of their race and other parts of their identity once u figure out those parts.
I think this is a really good tactic. Race and gender will affect how the world treats that character but how they adapt to those pressures will be idiosyncratic, depending on their individual tempermant, personality, and life experiences. You just can't ignore that those pressures exist and manifest differently for different groups of people.
I think TV specifically also benefits from writer's rooms (if they're diverse), because that way you are able to have multiple people of different ethnicities, identities, sexualities etc. and there is always someone who can give perspective and guidance.
Yess!! That's common writing advice too, actually! I always ignore advice that suggests I start with physical descriptions, or at least I try to skip that part until later. I still wouldn't leave that until the very end, though, because race (and appearance in general), unfortunately, does affect how you experience the world, how others see and treat you, etc. So, I''d probably do it before delving too much into backstory. Ahh, it's difficult! But so worth exploring.
Best of luck with both writing and schoolwork!
I feel like that's a lot easier of a process on TV because if you cast an actor from a different background from you, then the actor can bring their own nuance to the character and give feedback as they look over scripts. Sounds like a really good process in general though!
"Wouldn't the theme of this book be stronger if Addie had met women of colour that were forgotten about in history because then that would've made a parallel to the curse that she was going through." Holy shit, that just blew my mind. That would've been SO GOOD.
YES immediately my mind thought of a meeting with Rosalind Franklin
Omds!!!! That would of elevated it to a modern day classic!!
No one:
Literally no one:
Addie in Africa: 😀✌
and maybe THAT is what ve schwab was trying to avoid 😀✌ cuz that would have been a HOT MESS 😀✌
“I’m like girl- he was racist” IM CRYING NO
BUT HE WAS JDKSAJDSALK
@@withcindy You just used the KEYBOARD SMASH LAUGH TM. Gurl u are not straight.
I think an option for Addie Larue could have been staying within the continents she visits in the book, but referencing the POC who lived there throughout history. She could have referenced people like Alexandre Dumas, French author of The Three Musketeers and The Count of Monte Cristo, who was mixed race and the son of a black General of the French army. Like that’s relevant representation that fits within the realm of the worlds the story covers.
Alexandre Dumas was the son of a mixed Black man. He is 1/4 Black. I think people call him Black because of the one drop rule.
@@moustik31 I was just referencing a French contemporary, exactly how black he is doesn’t make it not part of his life experience, but I’m also not saying he’s completely black. And he’s only one example off the top of me head at the time, there are many many other people at other points on history. Her point in the video was that including elements like this would be relevant, especially because in Alexandre’s situation, not many people nowadays knows he’s mixed. An element of his identity forgotten by many. Again, relevant to a theme in the books like Cindy said. But like I mentioned this was just the first name off the top of head at the time, I’m not saying it’s the absolute perfect example.
@@bluedune8458 He is a 3/4 White man (like Sally Hemmings is a 3/4 enslaved White woman). I do hope you dont consider him a "completely" Black man. Jeezus.
Whiteness needs to become way more inclusive, than it actually is. Those discussions are ridiculous.
@@moustik31 I just said I don’t. But during his time period he would have had a unique experience being mixed regardless of the exact proportions. That’s all I am saying. The whole point is that Cindy was talking about characters and elements that could have been included that would have been relevant to the themes of the book. Dumas was just the first French contemporary who sprung to mind. He’s not necessarily the best option but he’s an example, that’s all. Just how black or white he is, isn’t the point. The point is that this book could have included a wider variety of perspectives from the various time periods Addie lived in.
This was the novel that inspired me to take revenge on my envious enemy conspirators.
"If I say anything stupid that might get me cancelled I might as well get paid for it" - Cindy 2021
why else do u think i sponsor every video
@@withcindy idk you're broke?
There is no "good answer" for these questions. You have to do what you can with a kind heart, an attentive mind and, above all, empathy. There is no avoiding criticism. People will have an opinion no matter how careful and thoughtful you are, regarding race but also a myriad of other things, and it's not something you can control. It's part of the universal experience being a writer. I think it's important to listen to criticism with introspection and to reflect on our priviledge, our impact on others and our personal responsibility, as writers and as human beings, to think about racial issues and to help shift the culture in every big and tiny way we can. What each of us does and how we think matters, and often more broadly than we can imagine.
i agree!!
I agree with this too ^^ I think listening to other people and hear what their thoughts are, especially those who are more knowledgeable and experienced about these topics. I feel like what Cindy did is what drives us forward to writing better stories. Opening up the discussion and sharing what is troubling communicates that we should do better and what to consider when we do. It shows us what we’re missing.
Something I’ve noticed is that when white authors don’t include POC, people complain there’s no diversity, but when they do include POC, people complain there’s no depth or the characters are stereotyped because their race is mentioned in passing without adding in any of the struggles those people face (not all books should need to talk about social issues but I’ve seen this complaint a lot, like “that character might as well have been white because nothing about them showed me they were Black, Asian, etc. and I wouldn’t have known if you didn’t explicitly state it.”) But when those white authors try to add in depth and racial struggles, etc., people complain that it’s not genuine and they shouldn’t be writing about that because they’re white and haven’t experienced that firsthand. So to me it feels like people will complain about what white authors do, regardless of the story or characters. Does anyone else notice this?
Hell, it happened to Vivziepop, who is Latina.
I've seen. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I agree with your point :)
I agree.
unfortunately you simply cannot please everyone.
In the end of the day, writers should write what makes _them_ happy.
Yes because there’s the correct why to do everything, but only when it’s done correctly should we feel the need to praise it. You either get it or don’t
"and im like girl, he's racist" aight, looks like we're getting right into it
LETS GOOOOOOO
"You know when BLM happened and a bunch of white girls retweeted links and they were like, 'okay im done'. Then when they get called out for their racism in the past, they disappear just like Addie LaRue." 😭😂
i know too many ppl legit like this LOLLL
I remember reading someone say it was creepy when adults wrote stories about kids and they should only write about adults. I was flabbergasted. Like, are you saying you don’t want books and shows about people under 20? Or are you saying you want books starring kids to only be written by kids? Cause that doesn’t sound like it’ll be very good.
Who the hells gonna write them anyway? Kids? No one's gonna read that shit, even kids.
That's similar, but a bit different. Everyone has been a child.
That's just dumb. Everyone has been a child. Everyone isn't the same race or has the same circumstances, but that's what stories are for...to tell stories about said circumstances.
Rip Harry Potter then
Imagine their shock when they find out that kid shows are written, animated and directed by adults like oh no the horror😱😱🤯
As an aspiring author who's white, this is something I think about a lot. On one hand, I want to have a diverse cast of characters, because the world is diverse and I was lucky enough to grow up in a very multicultural city with a diverse group of friends. On the other hand, I've heard people talk about white authors writing non-white characters as taking opportunities from POC authors who should be able to tell their own stories. In the end, it feels like it's a no-win situation.
im also white so my opinion might not matter as much, but as a lesbian i wouldnt want to see a cishet author writing an entire 500 page novel about the pain and terror of being a lesbian yknow? yes i do want to see lgbt rep in media but stories centered around and about being lgbt should be left to people who've experienced what its like
i think that anyone should be able to write diversity into their stories and shouldn’t be limited to only writing characters they completely identify with. obviously there’s some issues when this happens, like with what happened with american dirt, tokenization (which isn’t just limited to white authors) and just a lack of research in general. but i think as long as people make an effort to show that they’ve put in research, such as having sensitivity readers or making sure what they’re portraying isn’t harmful, i think that anyone can write a diverse cast of characters.
Think of it this way: Every single author/playwright/screenwriter has written about people who are different from them. Female authors write about males in their books and vice versa, young authors write about old people, old authors write about young people, white people write about non-white people and vice-versa. The world of storytelling should be a place where people are encouraged to think outside their boxes. I agree with Cindy in that we shouldn't tell people "you can't write about this because you didn't experience it" because doing so stifles creativity and promotes toxic tribalism. But I also agree with her in that if you are writing a character who is vastly different from yourself, you should take on the responsibility to do as much research as possible so that you can present the most authentic story you can. Best of luck with your future endeavors. I'm a writer too btw😎
i agree its a tricky position to be in. this is what i wanted to talk about for my "a deadly education" discussion, because that is an example of a white author who did incorporate diversity in her dark academia world (awesome!), but had some oversight in the way she wrote certain things and got backlash for it, despite non-malicious intentions on her part
In my dumb opinion, I think that you can write POC characters as long as them being POC is not their main trait.
It’s cool when they are just people who have their own personalities, goals and relationships that have nothing to with them being POC.
Being a minority is a part of who I am, but it is not *what* I am.
Cindy: wait a minute, am I actually straight?
Every non straight person watching: Ah yes, I know where this is going
askldjklajkldjkldlaskdalsd
As a straight supporter I'm just laughing
I already knew the moment I saw the haircut. No one with that hair is not just a little bit gay
As an aspiring author who's white, I want to make everyone feel represented in my books, but I also want to make sure that I don't accidentally reinforce stereotypes or anything along those lines.
@Shalini Devabaktuni I don't have anything published yet, but I have a few WIPs.
Same!! I'm writing a fantasy book where my MC is a POC and I'm doing my best to avoid any stereotypes
It's simple. Just write the characters first. Make them have a well thought out personality, motives, aspirations, backstory etc outside their ethnicity/sexuality/etc. In essence, write the character first, traits/appearance after. It makes no sense to say you want to write a "diverse" cast of characters and have that be the main focus, because then that makes them "token " forced characters, and it becomes very obvious. Rather, write your diverse characters like you would any one else, don't focus on the fact they are part of one group or another as much as you would their own development as a person. However, if you are going to write about the particular struggles or experiences of a group you have no relation to, always, always, always do your research.
@@Velociraptorgurl That's what I tend to do
Felt that...
the way i often think of this is generally, i feel like its ok for white authors to write characters of color or cis/straight authors to write lgbtq characters if they dont try to write about those identities/experiences as major themes. as a trans person for example i like when cis authors include trans characters if they do it with genuine thought and care! i Dont like it when i feel like cis authors are trying to like, deeply examine trans identity or tell me what trans identities mean.
i agree!
Whenever authors write historical fiction, fantasy, or scifi with no people of color - all I think is that their understanding of history and their visions of the future are incredibly narrow. Overall, I think authors are "allowed" to write what they want and readers have the right to critique the books we read. I personally look to authors of color when I'm looking for a diverse group of characters (although AOC are also capable of tokenization).
i totally agree! i would also add onto that authors who dont include POC have an incredibly narrow aesthetic in mind for their book. even when its not historically accurate, and the author wants to write either a fun or thought-provoking or beautiful story, when POC are not included, it speaks to how they envision that aesthetic theyre trying to go for. maybe even their ideal aesthetic?
@@withcindy Absolutely! I also think it speaks to their lack of experience and familiarity with anyone who isn't white. I've never read a book by a Black author that featured a white character who was stereotypical, one dimensional, or fetishized. And I think that's because Black people (especially Black Americans) learn how to understand and navigate white people as a means of survival. While interacting with any BIPOC, often seems optional for white people - especially those who are middle and upper class.
Hey It's Shey It’s entirely possible that a medieval European would never meet a black African (as opposed to an Arabic African from north of the Sahara), but a tremendous amount of the technological advancements from the age either came from or through the Middle East (many having originated in China). Also a great deal of the Iberian Peninsula was controlled by various Caliphates, Sultanates, Emirates etc., and even in Scandinavia we have verified accounts of Arabic scholars who ventured up there to learn about and from them. It’s pretty hard to dodge even if you’re trying to be 100% historically accurate. Even if there are no POC in the work, their influence on Europe would still be visible and obvious.
@@fukyomammason That's a great point! Speaking of medieval people, it wasn't until I read "A World Lit Only By Fire" did I really understand how limited the average peasant was in their worldview.
@@HeyItsShey I mean, if they basically did anything other than work the land they would starve to death. The name of your king or even what kingdom currently controls your land is far less important than basic survival. But most historical stories focus on people of import and power, and at the very least you'd see like a noblewoman in a dress incorporating foreign fabric with an 'exotic' pattern (if for no reason other than showing off). Another point worth making is that the concept of racism didn't really exist as we know it today (otherization would still be a thing, and skin color is obviously more noticeable than regionality). A person's religion would have been the more contentious point. While ignorant peasants from say France and Mali would probably deeply mistrust each other, it's likely that a Coptic priest from Addis Ababa and a Roman Catholic clergyman could have a friendly theological conversation (assuming they shared a language). The commonality of religion and education level would be more important to both men.
Quite simply, some of the most interesting places in the world are where cultures had a chance to blend and reshape each other. By denying that aspect of human history, we invariably worsen ourselves as a species. Norman Sicily (google it, it's almost unbelievable) in my mind is one of the best examples of what open-mindedness can achieve, even if the encroaching dark of the ignorant world all around will ever seek to snuff it out.
The thing for me is: this girl had such a lust for life, she literally traded her soul for the that freedom, and she had 300 YEARS to supposedly satisfy that without ever stepping out of Europe or the US?
and only a very specific portion of the europe too! like it's not a huge continent but there are many countries there!
I'm sorry for the late comment...
But in the case of Abby it kinda (just kinda) makes sense? At least to me?
She definitely had a lust for life but the circumstance of always being forgotten, never having any type of anchor, would had led her to try to look for and stay in as much familiarity as possible, we now she keep coming back to her hometown again and again
Well when she made agreement with the devil he tricked her, she never specifically said what she wanted, only things she doesn't want and few things that she lives for are never specified in her dialog with the devil. Also problem with travelling would be that she can't find job, because of her curse. Either she would have to steal large amounts of money for any travelling or sneak into any kind of a transport. But I think she just wanted to find a way to live in these new circumstance and learn about her curse, I don't think that she really had any will to go on travel trips when she was cursed to be forgotten, seems kinda like tough situation and travelling isn't her first choice to go.
I thought about this too. The thing is tho, the first time she actually left France was by force. Same with Germany. I think she liked choosing places, mostly big cities, and explore them until there was nothing left to explore. I also think she stayed in Europe for so long bc it always was closer to Villon. Then when she decided she would no longer visit Villon, she finally went to see another continent. For me it’s pretty logic she would choose the USA specifically bc of the infamous “American dream”. I like to believe she moved on to other continents after Henry’s book was published, but unless Miss Schwab writes a second book, I guess we’ll never know.💁🏽♀️
How will she apply for Visas if people can't remember her?
The two things that bothered me most about Addie LaRue is
1) how she doesn't comment on any history that happens or anything that's going on over her 300 years (like you said)
2) she mentions how she spends like entire evenings or maybe even a whole day with people and they don't forget about her until after they go to bed, like you're seriously telling me that no one ever had to pee? They forget her when they leave the room, so where is she finding all of these super bladdered people that don't have to pee for hours?
they have strong bladders
@@withcindy more unrealistic than the deal with the devil imo 😂
She presents all her lovers with diapers
@@buseleck omg I can’t this is too funny 😂😂
I don't think every book that has some slight historical bent needs to go on and go on some big monologue about historical events why they were bad or whatever. That's really obnoxious and adds nothing to a book.
I love how this entire video is cindy respectfully debating with herself I love you queen it takes a genuinely intelligent person to be able to see and understand and argue for all the different perspectives.
Thank you! I think it's important to consider the nuances of both sides
As usual Europe is only limited to France, UK, Italy and Germany 🤦♀️
Amsterdam is not in any of these countries.
@@TheSanna26 but still, Netherlands is a wealthy country and that’s my point
@@siljenka Doesn't it makes sense that she would try to stay in the richer area's? I know I would do that if I happened to find myself all alone in a different century.
@@hannahbee264 no not really. It's a fantasy book and being wealthy doesn't make a country interesting. Besides, 300 years ago wealth was distributed differently across Europe. V.E. Schwab just wrote about standard European places that are widely recognised as interesting and fancy in modern times.
@@siljenka As a student of European history, I have to disagree with you on this one. The countries she visits were considered the most cultured in this era (and the city Vienna, of course).
Yes I'm so tired of authors making being gay their only personality trait or being poc black or Asian their whole character and call it diversity 🤦
Hello it is me Cho Ch-----
@@withcindy noooo
@@withcindy I literally can’t believe J.K Rowling was just like, hmmm what should I name my character who happens to be Asian? How about CHO CHANG
@@withcindy STOP CINDY NO
we do not mention JKR in this good christian household 🔫
or the special combo: bipoc AND gay (AND the only gay or bipoc character in the whole story)
From my perspective, when people of color say "stay in your lane", we mean don't make the oppression the focus of that character's story. Systemic racism is constant in real life, but I'm not overtly subjected to it every single moment of my life. I do have times where I get to simply existing as a person. The conflicts in my life aren't solely defined by racism. So if a story is in a fantasy setting where the world as we know it either doesn't exist or takes a backseat to the plot, I don't think white authors have a lot to stand on if they say they don't want to have people of color because that somehow means they have to bring racism into it. Because that's not what's necessarily being asked of them to do. Also if Schwab can have her character think highly of a real historical figure who we know to be a racist, but only wants to focus on the person's positives, then I don't think it's outside of her ability to focus on the positives any marginalized community was experiencing at that time too. With that being said though, if a white author genuinely doesn't want people of color in their stories, then I don't want them to write them in. And that author has to accept being known as the white person who doesn't want people of color in their stories and has to accept the conclusions readers draw with that information. I rather have a white author who wants people of color in their stories so they do the work to represent us as respectfully as they can--and who may fuck it up while trying, than have an author who doesn't care at all and you can explicitly see their indifference or dislike in their work.
thanks so much for sharing!! i agree!!
Naomi Novik is a good example of a white author doing her best. She had a few mistakes in her newest book, but action was taken to correct it and she posted an honestly great apology (not that it’s mine to accept-but i expected it to be BS since these usually are, so I was surprised at how it was handled overall). Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
""Stay in your lane" makes me think of writers who want to lecture to the public about some societal evil that they believe they are above in some way, and they want to "stand up for" the people they're writing about... without realizing that they might be talking over actual BIPOC or whomever, derailing the conversation to what THEY think is important instead of what the actual affected community is saying, and generally pointing to their own "enlightened allyship" status. No matter how empathetic and educated I try to be, that's never going to be my experience to claim or to accept apologies for or whatever else. It makes me think of male writers who write female sexual assault survivors, claiming to be against misogyny and abuse while also writing gratuitous scenes that are too excessive for the purpose they could arguably serve in the book... and their scenes focusing on those things are some of the most detailed and gratuitous in their entire books, and read an awful lot like the hateful fantasies misogynists would write online. Like, maybe a straight white guy doesn't need to be writing about a female sexual assault victim under a microscope and he could stand to analyze why he felt the need to do so and in such depth. (I'm 100% talking about Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, someone fight me about it.) If someone's really writing BIPOC or writing a story about their societal obstacles, they really gotta reflect in themselves and ask wtf they're trying to do. Are you trying to express what a big ally you are, or are you trying to tell a story? Are you fascinated by the oppression or horrified by it? And I mean- maybe just boost authors who actually know what they're writing about. Idk shit about shit though so I'm sure I'm going to have to check myself when I finish my project.
When I was writing stories, I never really spent much time thinking about how the characters looked. (Also, when I read other people's books, I never remember their character descriptions either, unless it's actually relevant. That's just my style of engaging with stories.) So instead of planning how they looked, I'd just live my life, and occasionally I'd see a stranger and think "that's how this character should look!" Since I lived in the German country side though, said strangers were pretty much exclusively white. It wasn't a conscious effort on my part to make all my characters white; it just kind of happened because of where I was living. (Well, with one exception where I wrote a story about an alternate-reality of post-WW2, where everyone is a Nazi. In that case, yeah, it was intentional because anything else wouldn't make sense.) With all my other characters, I spent so little time describing how they looked, that I could easily go back and retcon half of them as being black, and it wouldn't change a thing.
She should have written in a way that the curse limited her to her hometown or country adding another metaphor of being “trapped” like that goddamn tree in her village
But that was the whole point. She made the pact to be free and get out of her town.
Not Cindy getting confused about her sexuality by the sapphic romance she wrote herself.
im like wait a minute.....
The Invisible POC in Addie LaRue:
the working title Schwab had
bro..........
the thing is... it felt like it was sold to us differently? travelling the “world” does not equate to a couple of european countries and the US. if addie had a introspective moment in which she marvelled on how ‘little’ she has lived for such a long time (how she has seen only but a tiny part of what’s out there), and how white-centric her experience was, it would have satisfied me more. but i kept waiting to see more “adventures” around the “world” that weren’t centred on a making an impression on an older, white, problematic dude and this just didn’t happen. the author doesn’t owe us diversity but the character could have been a bit more critical of what she has seen/experienced bc as she’s now, she just sounds as the character equivalent of a european middle school history book.
*It seems Addie LaRue wanted to be remembered, just not by people of colour.*
- Joel Rochester, 2021
💀
its ok we both wont remember each other
NOT ME BEING QUOTED HERE
IM-
Personal anecdote - I didn't realize I was (very obviously) bi until my mid twenties because bisexuality is basically invisible in the media, and it isn't focused on in pride spaces either. Then I wrote a sci-fi book featuring a whole city of hot lesbians and everything came to the surface. It was a struggle admitting it to myself, but I'm much more comfortable now. There's no time limit on your journey and it can take you to new places or full circle. Both are fine and valid. Don't sweat it, Cindy. ❤
thank you :)
Yeah, bi erasure is a real problem, even in the LGBTQ sphere. I never felt comfortable calling myself bi because I felt like being mostly attracted to feminine men didn't "count".
Idris Elba, tho. Lawd have mercy, that man gives me the vapours.
@@newsystembad it's true. Bi women are considered straight and bi men are considered gay. Or we're all just "experimenting". And if you haven't been with both no one believes you. Like, straight people can find the opposite sex attractive and no one questions it, even if they've never kissed, dated etc. But you can't be bi unless you've "proved it". It's ridiculous. (And I blame mine on Xena lol)
Where can I find this book?
@@rayleighritz5107 It's so true. It took me a long time to realize that I was Bi and that not every girl has serious crushes on/attraction to other girls as so often people write it off as a phase or faking cause it's hot or whatever. I had these kinds of feelings my whole life and I wrote it off until the last couple years. Now I see so much more bi representation on youtube and it got me to really start thinking about it all. Of course then I realized how much biphobia there is from all sides and it's a bit disheartening.
Now that I'm thinking about it, it would have been cool to see Addie meeting Mozart's sister who was very talented. She too is a woman forgotten by history, even though she wasn't cursed. It would have been such an interesting concept. I really enjoyed this book but this video really is making me think about it in a different light.
And Sophia Tolstoy! She really could have been out there meeting talented women forgotten by history :\
Ultimately, it feels like the book plays it safe and ends up being less impactful than it could have been had she put in the effort to make the story more realistic and expensive via inclusivity.
yes, exactly! but i also can understand why she felt the need to play it safe, considering how the book community can be lol
As a white person writing my own fantasy series, I opted to design each character and their personality and backstory before adding race, gender, and sexuality. I just didn't want to add any biases or base their character on their race, gender, or sexuality.
While I do think its important to recognize how identity can influence how society treats people, its also important to remember that identity doesn't define everything about the character. ie. Being gay isn't a personality trait, but it can and does have an effect on life experiences. I will definitely get senstivity readers though because I am human and will probably mess some things up along the way.
i agree!
All my fav fantasy movies and books always have poc as the spunky best friend and never the main character. Even when the race doesnt matter it always seems as though white is the default
@@Simmerdownidc yeah I completely agree with you. That was something I really tried to be aware of too. I have a lot of world mythology influences in my books so as it turns out, very few of them ended up being white. Only a few side characters with Nordic backgrounds. It wasn't intentional, but just seemed appropriate after everything was mapped out.
@@Simmerdownidc Exactly this. It's like being POC or LGBT is part of their "quirky personality/character" instead of just... like a thing that happens to be part of their life.
She wrote that Addie knew Swiss language ....SWISS LANGUAGE . I think she just wasn’t willing to do enough research for this book and took the easy way out.
Although tbf as a German Swiss German is oftentimes referred to as that, spoken by the majority in Switzerland, and hardly understandable for someone from Austria or Germany. Of course French and Italian are spoken there too, I just meant to say that Swiss German is close to its own language. (For me it is almost as hard to understand as Dutch)
But imagine if Addie tried to free a slave between her wallowing, no thank you
JDALSJKDLSAJKLDSDS
This was my main problem with the story. Those 300 years were full of tyranny, unfairness, slavery, poverty, hunger, and undeserved suffering. And Addie had the perfect skills necessary to alleviate it: she could have stolen from the rich and given to the starving poor, freed slaves, freed people unjustly imprisoned, assassinated Hitler quite easily, and so on! Instead of doing all these things and filling her life with joy and meaning, she just wallows and dates endless numbers of people. And then she wonders why she's feeling depressed!
lmaoo (as a lebanese person) IM WHEEZING after the "vacation to lebanon" joke
omg i always wanted a gay commenter in my channel :)
@@withcindy too bad im both gay and lesbianese :)
Super random but I hope to visit Lebanon one day!!
@@KD-CD As a Lebanese myself, trust me, you don't want to come near Lebanon during these times
I'm gay and actually lebanese same
When you said “ I’m also not interested in a book of a white author who felt obligated to write people of color because of the pressure to write diversity” in 4:40 I felt that, thank you for saying it.
theres no such a thing as avoiding the issue of race entirely. focussing entirely on whiteness is also an active choice
mMMMMmMMMmm
Came here to say the same thing!
yup centering whiteness and viewing it as the default is something people tend to overlook in these conversations
What if you live in a place in which racial diversity isn't a thing though?
@@ackermanlol i mean, that still doesnt make you any less white
I might always be late to zoom school but you best believe I’m early to Cindy’s channel.
You're the best!
Cindy's schooling us here on the internet ✌️
"am I straight"? I felt that lmao.
I think at this point my sexuality is "anyone who will give me a hug" because no human contact is awful
I'm sorry for replying a year later, but "I don't even have preferences in romance at this point, I just want to feel emotional and physical closeness" sexuality should get its name and flag, because I definitely identify as this
I like how the counterarguments are more harsh than the main critical part.
whenever someone asks for my advice when writing POC i just tell them to do their own research
all that free information and you're asking me? i dont even know how to speak my own language
TRUUUUU
I might be wrong but I think it's not meant in a "free labour" but a "I'm interested in your perspective" kind of way. I get that you don't have to aswer (especially if their way of asking seems nosy or rude) but to codemn someone for trying to initiate a conversation seems to be counterproductive.
@@cecilie... honestly it depends on the context
Also it should be pointed out that being X-American (or wherever the person in question may be from) is sometimes *vastly* different from being X.
@@Ella-iw4lo agreed. if they're just asking for an opinion after having done their researches to be sure they're not writing something insensitive i think it's okay to ask, though they still aren't owed any answer because poc people aren't their teachers. but if instead of doing researches they're asking someone because they're too lazy to do some basic efforts they need to be shut up immediately.
Addie LaRue clearly suffered from the curse too but she forgot everyone she came across who wasn't a historic white man
I think this is what makes cindy’s channel so exciting. We would never know when videos talking about serious topics would pop out. Last few videos we were talking about food and movies then boom, we now go to more sensitive topics. I love this dynamic!
thank you!
Last time I was this early, Cindy wasn't a furry
that time never existed
@@withcindy slumberland tease👀
The queen replied?!
**stay calm stay calm**
this book also doesn't vibe with me because not only did she not mention the atrocities of non white people but she didn't really talk about atrocities that white people suffered as well. to me, if you can name drop historical figures and their positive attributes than you can also acknowledge their faults the horrific impacts of their actions on human life. if v. e. schwab genuinely doesn't care about including poc in her books than fine thats her choice but she also needs to accept that her beautiful black woman isn't enough and that her audience is only white women
"the rona got me thinking: wait a minute, am i actually straight? i don't even know anymore"
wow what a mood
THIS IS WHY THE PANDEMIC NEEDS TO BE OVER
Sameeeee, had a total identity crisis during this pandemic lmao
@@_raeyon_ same
@@constanzatricallotis9308 big oof
@@_raeyon_ *sighs in questioning my gender* same
"If I'm going to be cancelled, I'm going to get paid for it" Go girl get your money
gotta stock up to retire when i get cancelled
@@withcindy Gotta get that GameStop stocks 💀
I mean, she has stereotyped Europe by leaving all eastern European countries out since the Czech Republic isn't aesthetic enough. Apparently, Europe consists of France, Italy, the Netherlands and Great Britain, at least that's what I get from Addie LaRue
but Prague is beautiful though, and so are many eastern european cities
@@onetrickponysona2613 absolutely! Which is why I think it's sad that it doesn't get mentioned enough. But at least we got Daughter of Smoke and Bone, the whole book takes place in Prague
Yep, I’m from Bulgaria and I also noticed Addie never visited any Eastern European countries. Apparently Germany and Austria are the edge of Europe
in the beginning of the book she does mention Prague, but sadly she never talks of it again and I was already looking forward to learning more about it
Exactly! And she's not the only American writer thinking that Western Europe is the only Europe.
Me 2 seconds ago: "oh boi it's late I should sleep"
Cindy: uploads
Me, immediately: "SLEEP IS FOR THE WEAK"
hope u have a good rest :)
Literally the same! Had made up my mind sleep early today but oh well, we have our priorities here xD
Please me don't call me out like that again. Just.. Just don't.
as an aspiring (white) storyteller with a lot of characters of colour, this was so insightful, both affirming things I've already heard and gave me new things to think about. thank you!
From my pov as a half chinese book lover I personally love when I see a character who is similar to me even when written by a non Asian author, so long as there is thought and research put into it without just focusing on the hardships, obviously I don’t speak for everyone but I love seeing pieces of my culture scattered across stories
@@jade728 I mean, Guy Gavriel Kay has fantasy (ish) books set in China, but he actually spent like a year there researching. I agree with Cindy, that it's a really slippery slope if you start demanding how much an author's background has to reflect their story in order to be allowed to write it.
Cindy: Talking about the serious topic of diversity in books
Me: Constantly picturing the green reflections in her glasses as eyeshadow
"I'm not interested in reading a book where a white author felt obligated to write people of colour because of the pressure to write diversely." *coughs couhgs* maggie stiefvater when she added an asian character in the last book of the raven cycle boys.
oop i didnt get that far into her series LOL
As much as I like Henry, he does kinda fall under the token minority trope
Cof cof SJM
@@carous_g for some godforsaken reason i mixed up sjm and leigh bardugo for like a second when i read your comment and my heart just did a little spike of anxiety before i realised i'm a fucking idiot
Man I forget who was that one character. I don't remember an asian character at all lol
I think it's a bit too easy to just let authors off by saying "oh, I can't write about POC, because I wouldn't be able to do it justice" because there *is* still systemic oppression, and books by white authors tend to have more reach and open more doors. For instance, according to Variety Addie LaRue has already been optioned for movie rights, which means that her disinclination to write roles for POC will lead to less acting roles for POC and less jobs for POC. It's not particularly fair to limit these opportunities because she wanted to "stay in her lane", and she is able to do so because she is from a position of privilege. I also don't think the only option for including POC is having her necessarily go to other countries. There were prominent POC in Europe at the time. For instance, she could have met Alexandre Dumas, the writer of the Count of Monte Cristo, a black man who was whitewashed by history.
Like, disclaimer I'm white, but it still just seems too passive to give white authors a pass for continuing to perpetuate the erasure of POC in fiction just because they aren't POC.
very good point!
Agreed, if a male author said he just doesn't write women characters because he couldn't do them justice, I would never read his books again. It would show me he doesn't see women as whole people who can be written lots of different ways. The same goes for race. It's an author's job to think deeply and not stay in their narrow worldview so I wouldn't give anyone a pass.
assuming that V E Shwab did in fact purposely decide not to include POC. i have a feeling she probably completely forgot (about having) to include them -- which could be considered a problem in and of itself. but tbh, i never did notice the whiteness of the story UNTIL cindy mentioned it. idk what that says about the kind of books i read, or if im not really much of a smart reader but.
anyways, what ur trying to say is that white authors should try to write about poc people(not necessarily their struggles with racism/oppression) even if they're afraid they wont be able to do it justice?
I had no idea Dumas was a POC! I've looked him up briefly when I was reading TCOMC, and didn't recognise from his portrait his Afro-Caribbean background.
Cool involvement of different cultures there, but also an interestingly twisted view that the Count has about the African slave, more specifically how he "acquired" him. But maybe that revulsion is Dumas wanted to elicit by writing that, and encourage us to realise how fucked it was (and slavery is)
On the other hand, there is lots of whitewashing in TV and movies. One could just as easily put the responsibility of allowing POC entry into that business by simply casting people who were white in the original story as POC instead. Adaptations are never 100% faithful, and this is one point I can easily see them taking that path.
It's not surprising to me that Addie didn't notice the struggles of others -- her bizarre form of isolation caused selfishness, I think, and it makes sense that it would since empathy is built via connection (at least, at first...later that skill can be applied elsewhere). So it makes sense to me that she's SO selfish, especially early on in the story, and then consumed with saving the one she loves.
I mean you should probably write them as a normal, multi-dimensional, person. But if you stray towards sensitive subjects, do your research and talk to people in that group.
i agree!
"Eurocentric" tends to mean "Central Europe", but Central Europe is not the whole of Europe. Historically speaking, there were a lot of shit happening in Northern and Eastern Europe between the 1700s and 2000s that are not even mentionned in the book. Also, and hear me out, there were white oppressed people in Europe up until the 1990s esp. in Northern and Eastern Europe (hello, Ottoman Empire and USSR). Focusing only on the "cool" central European countries is more than whitewashing, it's privilege-washing.
And I do get the argument that it would have been worse if V.E. wrote about cultures she did not really understand. But two counterarguments here :
1. In this case, does she consider that she knows what the French society or the Dutch society were in the 1700s ? Do we consider that her research is enough just because she speaks about central Europe ?
2. If you are going to imagine a 500 pages semi-historical fiction about a main character who can do almost as she pleases and move around continents, but you are not going to bother with non-sexy countries, just fucking change the concept. Make her stay within a radius of something or whatever, idk.
+
Yeah... I have family in Greece, and to this day there are still scars (physical and social) of the ottoman occupation. Or hell, even the nazi invasion. My grandfather legit has childhood trauma from ww2. then there’s the brits taking ancient artifacts and still not giving them back... There’s a reason they’re not huge fans of much of Europe lol.
It's Anglo-Saxon centrism, honestly.
I compleeeeeeetely agree. I think the basic concept could have been phenomenal in someone else’s hands. As it is now, it felt too twee (her portrayal of modern New York was... lacking) and self-indulgent. It was like she didn’t even crack open a basic survey book about any history at all. And it’s a shame, because writing historical fiction is about building a foundation of facts that you can use to develop all of the people and places you create. Learning the complex realities gives you a toolkit for carving a more believable world. Without that foundation, without those tools, nothing stands up to scrutiny.
i thought eurocentric was more of a worldview that’s centered around european and western civilization/culture rather than a specific area in europe.
As an asexual writer, I write characters of all different sexualities, but ask me to write a sex scene and I don't think it would be enjoyable or relatable for anyone. The solution - I don't write sex scenes. On occasion, I write romance, and I consider sexual intimacy in why and how characters make decisions, but it will never be a major plot line in a story I write because I'm not the right person to write that.
I draw a very loose comparison as sexuality does not impact as many facets of life as race can but, as a human being, I feel like I could write from the perspective of any other human being, as long as I take the time to properly construct and understand the character's background, experience and outlook on life. It is my responsibility as a human to educate myself on how race impacts real people, and as a writer, to make sure my characters are believable and realistic. However, as a white woman, I feel if I wrote a scene focusing on a POC character's intimate and complex reflections on race, it would read unrealistically because that is a depth of experience I could never understand. So, I wouldn't write a story where a scene like that is necessary (in addition, an unrealistic representation could do more harm than good).
A man saying that he does not write woman characters because he 'does not understand' them, or white-washing stories (such as in Addie LaRue, however I haven't read it), is wrong on many levels, but superficially, it's bad writing. What you've observed is a massive plot hole in the story, and an obvious one at that, which shows that VE Schwab didn't do the research that you and many others in the comments have managed to do. For a book with themes of erasure and legacy, for the author herself to omit POCs is almost laughably ignorant. If VE Schwab did not feel comfortable writing that, then she should have put down her pen and hoped that the idea found a writer who could do it justice, instead of requiring her readers to suspend their belief and, ironically, further erasing the achievements of POC throughout history.
I don't think that a man not writing women is anywhere near the same as a white person not writing POC. The man's world is literally inhabited by 50% women and he likely interacts with many many women in varying degrees of intimacy. A white person on the other hand even if they live in a diverse community might not actually interact with many POC and have very few close relationships with POC so that could severely impact their level of understanding and ability to write a POC.
Also themes of erasure and legacy might be relevant to POC but they arent exclusively an issue of POC, they are also a women's issue and also a human experience. Everyone to some extent has the potential to worry about being forgotten and what legacy they will leave behind. Just because it could also relate to POC doesnt mean that any book written on the subject has to explore it from that perspective.
Authors need to just be allowed to write about what they want. Claiming issues for marginalized communities and mandating they only be explored from that angle isn''t fair. Forcing an author to write diversity when they aren't familiar with diversity isnt fair. No author is required to research a topic in order to write a book. Why can't they just write a story from their perspective and those that want to read from that perspective will and those that don't, wont?
@@gallifreyuniversity Agreed, especially when it is a fictional novel. I expect research to be put into a non fictional work but not for fictional authors. They can pour in as much research as they want if they want to appeal to a larger and wider audience, but if they want to write something entirely from their perspective and experience, it is very much fine with me.
so well said
“a lot of us dont go outside” welcome to the pandemic where everyone becomes a booktuber
I feel like trying and failing to include POCs *respectfully* in your work is still better than intentionally not including any at all. Obviously neither is ideal though.
Trying and failing in good faith is much better, especially if you accept the criticism as it comes and growing as a storyteller. Not trying avoids writing some problematic things, but you may not grow as a writer or a person.
Jaz Helton Hard agree. Nothing ventured...
This comments section turned into a cesspool of performatism.
People saying white people have no right to write poc characters.
People saying white people are racist for NOT writing poc characters.
People saying writers who write poc characters referring a lot to the fact that they're poc is stereotyping.
People saying writers who write poc characters and don't get into poc issues with that character are erasing poc experiences.
Conclusion? You can't win and should write whatever you want to write with good intentions and a little bit of research. There will always be someone who's angry and has a twitter account who will have a rant about you regardless.
YES THANK YOU 👏👏👏
@@jstannies5847 Thank you! this comment is so tone deaf, istg
addie literally could've just gone to the slavic countries at the very least lmao
she cant even visit the spicy whites LOL
@@withcindy shdhjs this is the first time I've seen my people be called spicy whites and I'm loving it
Edit: though ironically, russian and ukrainian cuisine is pretty bland, can't speak for other slavs
@@veram1545 jewish food is bland af but IT'S SO GOOD
I will go eat my fried potatoes in the corner
@@veram1545 That's where the South Slavs come through. I wouldn't call it very spicy, but there is some spice as most like to add garlic in things (you know, for vampires)
@@veram1545 if we talk eastern europe pretty general Hungarian love spicy. they aren't slavic thooooo.
Just started watching but I already wanna chime in already (lol) bc what you said at the very start abt how precluding ppl from writing characters of certain races can open a discussion on who is x enough to write abt the experience really spoke to me; I'm mixed, and I grew up around asian (chinese) culture, but I have lived my life being read as a white person. Somehow, I always feel this awkwardness when I write an asian character, especially when it's in a context where I have to do it from an appearance perspective and not just clearly saying where they're from. This has always bothered me: though I'm white, so much of my family isn't, my own sister looks very clearly asian, how come I have such difficulty describing my own people? I think the answer is we often learn how to write from previous writings, not really the world around us. And the lack of asian rep in the media at large means there is no language for us (besides the one charged with orientalism and weird food metaphors; almond eyes, seriously?); it's shameful for me to feel like I don't have the language to describe my own people. All this to say, I think our perception of the world is often shaped by the perception of the world from others, which we consume in art, and it's most important for that world to be as large and inclusive as possible.
its a tricky position to be in!! i agree :)
About the questioning your sexuality while writing thing--I spent my first draft going from "why is it so easy for me to write a character with anxiety" to "oops, turns out I've had undiagnosed anxiety for years!"
I have never been so early for a cindy-vid, feeling blessed af
Oohhh same
good morning!!
Bruh, same. I'm usually eating something when she posts.
Same!
Bold to assume she'd write diverse POC when she can't even diversify the personalities of her white female leads 👀
jdklasjkldsklslkgjkdls
oh TEA
Bahahahahaha
BAHAHA! Yes!!!!!!
I think addie la rue has a good enough representation for a romance. It is not a historical fiction, she did not set out to tell the worlds history, its a book about addie and her curse.
Im imagining right now if addie had run into a black person being whipped during slavery, what could she have done? Run towards it and stop it at first, but when they removed her from the place everything would be forgotten and back to usual.
She is powerless in the book, so impotent it is annoying. I dont think it d be a good idea for VE Schwab to explain such problematic subjects that are to her personal experience just to then have addie do nothing about it.
I feel that Addie, even if she was just travelling throughout Europe and New york would have seen and experienced so much than just a bunch of white ppl? We know how for houndreds of years Romani and jewish people have been prosecuted and discriminated against, we know how badly literally anyone the french didn't deem "white enough" were treated. What are just the Odds she just walks around and meets Shakespeare and Voltaire too have a chat but sees literally nothing of people dying in the streets? I think the book is alright but from the premise I kinda wanted something less introspective and more focused on being human I guess? We will all dissapear one day, why not base the book around the people who will be forgotten, instead of thoose who through their cultural impact will essentially "live on" for longer than anyone else?
This is underrated
Agreed 100%. Even if she didn't travel to other continents, there are lots of things she could have explored.
There is a book coming out called “Appropriate: A Provocation” by Paisley Rekdal and it’s about the question you ask. Should people write about experiences they cannot speak for. It’ll be an interesting read I think. I talk about it in my Big List - Nonfiction - Day 2 video. I think writers should give it a look! I know that I want to. (If it makes any difference to anyone - I do believe the author is a white woman)
interesting! i would be curious to hear this subject from multiple people (this white woman + other POC)
Personal take, as a "person of color" (I'm sorry, but I hate that term):
It depends. But mostly, either you DON'T write about that experience, but support an author who identifies with it and lift their voice instead (#ownvoices), OR you write about it, but first you do extensive research, interview people, and hire sensitivity readers to help you validate that you're writing accurately and respectfully.
My honest (and maybe hot) take is that true empathy is very difficult to have, unless you've survived a similar experience to what you're writing about... And even then.
In the end, there are many different perspectives, even within the same groups of people. I just don't think there's a way a white author could ever understand, feel, and care about all the details and nuances. Just like I can't identify with the white experience, lol, even as a light-skinned Puerto Rican.
For instance, even though all of these are POC: what an African American in New York goes through every day isn't the same as what a Newyorrican does; how a Puerto Rican raised in the mainland experiences their Puerto Rican identity is different from how an island-born and raised Puerto Rican does; and even how a black versus a white Puerto Rican experiences life is very different. So POC experiences are still so, so diverse, and I can only account for my own, as an island-born and raised Puerto Rican who recently moved to the mainland, now experiencing a more overt form of racism than what we have back home.
Obviously, my answer is a little too simple for such a complex topic, though. I'll check out the book and videos you mentioned. :)
@@withcindy Yeah, I definitely think it's a topic that requires multiple viewpoints from, including nonbinary authors, and LGBTQIA +, and etc., authors along with authors of color and of other cultures as well. But, it's a good start, even with a white author, as long as she says, "DO THE FUCKING RESEARCH AND DO IT CORRECTLY."
@@jessatlife genuinely curious, why don't you like the term 'person of colour'?
@@jessatlife It really is such a complex topic because then it's also about the horribly skewed publishing system. I agree that Own Voices should be the go to when reading a story. I know I personally notice when white authors are writing something outside of their experience that it feels off. I just read Radio Silence, for example, recently and she refers to someone who has dreadlocks as just "dreadlock", (pages 470 and 471) as if that were their name and it felt completely unnecessary and inappropriate.
But yes, I think everything should be Own Voices, really, and that publishing shouldn't be so skewed because then white people wouldn't get the praise they do for writing characters outside of their own experience. For example, " American Dirt", which on booktube and some other platforms did get called out on, but booktube is such a small percentage of the people who read that and it's not enough to just call them out on here. I mean, it was in Oprah's Book Club!
Even I feel awkward talking about the situation because I'm white and I never want to come across as ignorant or part of the problem. So, I really just try to pay attention to who is writing what- which is something I haven't always done, I will admit that. But I am paying attention and learning.
As a black woman, I don’t mind if white authors don’t write black characters. 1. It’s fiction. 2. I can enjoy a piece without seeing myself represented in it. 3. I read a lot of black literature and I don’t always expect white people to be represented there. If you want to read about melanated characters, support melanated writers. That’s inclusion.
Cindy: questioning her sexuality
Me: Oh this is how you get featured in Strange Aeons fanfiction .
Maybe an author of color should revisit this story idea or make it into a show about a woman of color goes through history being forgotten but writing stories for other women who were forgotten. V.E. has provided a good outline for others to follow. I think there's some merit in that despite the lack of cultural and racial depth they provided.
i would love to read this concept written by a WOC!
that's what I was thinking the whole time reading this!!
Seconded! I rather a WOC revisit this setup
I think it's great that we are critically analyzing this topic, as a 15-year-old South-Asian American girl I get close to no representation in my favorite novels, and before I came across this channel it just became the norm to me. I don't think that's okay and I think it's a sensitive topic to play with. Especially because the last thing I want is for there to be totally stereotypical characters just for the sake of diversity.
Hey, I'm a 15-year-old girl as well! I remember, when I was younger, almost forcing myself to watch certain shows or read certain novels because "look! They have an Indian character!" I was so deprived of representation that I forced myself to put up with caricatures of Indian characters like Ravi Ross on _Jessie_ or Baljeet on _Phineas and Ferb._ I would have preferred having no Indian characters to having clichés and stereotypes.
@@s29nv1sr1 I had a very similar experience! I grew up forcing myself to laugh at the jokes poking fun at Ravi and Baljeet but they weren't really that funny. They were based in stereotypes that had a negative influence thousands of brown kids who were part of their audience. I love Phineas and Ferb but I felt cheated with the character of Baljeet. Did you have to deal with being called Dora? Or maybe Jasmine? It was a common occurrence for me. It's worse because if you enjoy STEM and reading you are inadvertently fitting the stereotype. Making those characters obsessed with their grades and teased for enjoying science definitely did not have a good influence on me.
@@anushkasinha6984 Hmm, I didn't have to deal with being called Dora or Jasmine, thankfully. But everything else I could definitely relate to - I actually _want_ to be a doctor when I grow up, and have a passion for math and science, so I definitely fit the "model/nerd minority" stereotype. It was definitely easy for people to taunt me for being so nerdy.
I also don't understand why showrunners and writers assume that brown kids' entire personalities are being nerdy, like with Baljeet and Ravi. Even as someone who defines myself as "nerdy," I'm still an effing person with interests outside of academics.
@@s29nv1sr1 I totally agree it's a toxic stereotype that really needs to stop. Do you know any books/series with good south Asian characters (I've already read Six of Crows and Inej is my everything)? I'm having a hard time finding good stories that don't fall under these stereotypes while having engaging plots
@@anushkasinha6984 Dang, that's a hard question. As for shows, I can only think of one show with an Indian lead that actually focuses on Indian culture and representation, and that's _Never Have I Ever._ But that wasn't really for me. I find that a bunch of Indian rep, especially in shows, tends to come in the form of side characters, or mixed Indian characters, like in _New Girl,_ _Parks and Recreation,_ and _The Office._
I haven't seen a lot of Indian representation in books either, but one novel that I read recently that I really liked, which also featured nice Indian representation was Pooja Singh in the novel _Tweet Cute._ Pooja's not the main character, but she's still a well-rounded character in her own right and was written like an ACTUAL TEENAGE HUMAN BEING with actual hobbies. (Just a heads up, she does come across as a minor antagonist to one of the main characters in the beginning, but she gets redemption towards the end of the book.) So I'd definitely recommend that.
If I find out anymore, I'll come back and edit the comment too.
A certain author should’ve watched this video before naming her only asian character with two syllables.
JKR has too many issues to deal with LOL
Yes
she’s busy hating trans people
It's not the two syllables that's the problem, because actual Chinese people have names with only two syllables, or even the name "Cho" or the surname "Chang", it's the combination of the two..."Cho" could a Japanese name and "Chang" is a Chinese surname so it's just kinda strange I guess.
said author also decided (and don't take my word for it, i've just heard this) that the only jewish character (who she only mentioned on twitter AFTER the books had been published for years) would have "goldberg" as his last name.
LIKE?? I don't know anybody at my temple named goldberg but that's not the point, jewish people have other names miss 👁👄👁
not to mention there are tons of jewish people who don't have "jewish" names, because we come from all around the world!
Addie LaRue travels around the “world” but only went to White countries/Europe: 🚶♀️
Asia/Africa: She don’t see us? 👁👄👁
I think they've seen enough white people to last several lifetimes .
She only went to Western Europe, at that. Eastern Europe doesn’t exist for Addie.
And Central America, South America, and the Caribbean just don’t exist at all.
V. E. Schwab's books aren't really known for diversity, but i guess by now y'all know the "Shades of Magic" in which the main character (who's white, of course) lives in a kingdom ruled by a black family and was adopted by said family. i've read it a few years ago and i don't remember much of it, the trilogy seemed more okay than Addie LaRue in this matter. her writing and character development is quite good so i hope her future books will improve
i love how cindy is debating with herself
i love talking in circles
I think representation is really important. I recently watched She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, which is an animated Netflix show with some of the best LGBTQ+ representation. I didn’t realize how important it was until I found myself crying while watching it. Partly because the romance is so beautiful, but also because I felt seen. I’m white, but I want everyone else to feel just as seen.
Same. Especially with the diverse representation of feminity in the show. Everyone was just vibin in their own unique relationship with their feminity and no one really needed to become more "masculine" to be a hero. Seeing ladies just being themselves and being heros honestly made me realize how lacking that concept is in media. Who knew a kids show on Netflix would honestly be one of the most personally empowering pieces of media I've consumed 🤷
A big issue of this book was misrepresentation of Jewish people and I feel like nobody is talking about that. Honestly I wish that VE had not written anything at all about a religion/culture she clearly doesn't know or care to research, rather than make up facts about said culture (which is already well established.) I know not many people know about the specifics of Judaism but I don't understand why VE chose to not do any research at all about the culture of her love interest. (A few examples: going to Yom Kippur dinner with the family? Yom Kippur is a fasting holiday, where you do not eat or drink from sunset the night of, until sunset the next day, and you spend the day praying. Another MASSIVE issue was the love interest denouncing his Judaism because he doesn't believe in god. Judaism is a culture beyond religion, and there is a massive number of people who identify as Jewish without the religious aspect of it, but there is a huge problem with people thinking that they cannot be Jewish without following the religion of Judaism. You can tell from someone's DNA that they are an Ashkenazi Jew. It is arguably a race. ALSO, why is it that her "diversity" by including a Jew, specifically including a guy who denounced his Judaism? That's not representation, that's just further pushing the damaging narrative that the culture of Judaism should be stamped out.)
I don't say this to detract from the lack of representation you discussed, but to say that if VE wanted to truly avoid potentially problematic representation, she should have either 1) done research on the miniscule amount of diversity she chose to "represent", or 2) just kept it completely self reflective and non denominational. So I don't think that's even a fair argument to make because she DIDN'T stay in her lane, she went ahead and chose to misrepresent a race anyway.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I just wanted to say maybe it could have been the breaking fast dinner ?? Also it seemed like he wasn’t denouncing his Jewish roots just didn’t believe in God and didn’t want to take part of the religion.
Edit- actually it seems like Yom Kippur was only mentioned once and no dinner was planned?
I’m pretty sure Victoria is Jewish
V.E.Shwab father is jewish.
I dont know much about judaism but noticed the lack of research about history and the art world which was such a big part of the book, that definitely put me off and made me doubt all the other facts so I totally see your point. Research was lacking throughout the book.
Yom Kippour family diner?!
“Girl...he was racist...”-what I want to yell at my white English Lit teachers who stan certain dead authors 😭
Edit: I know how to separate the art from the author, guys. It’s the people who don’t that I’m side-eyeing. Hence the comment lol
I cannot exist in a classroom that's discussing Beat Poets without bringing up, against everyone's will, what shitty people they mostly were.
@K Alexander00, but you can still love a book without loving the author. I’m sad everyone seems to forget it.
@@lazycatjansen9442 No, I get that. I’m guilty of that. But I’m talking about those who actually idolize the author.
hp lovecraft has aggressively entered the chat
@@kalex270 oh that’s fair