How BookTok's thirst invaded a family's life: the drama between Seattle Kraken and romance readers
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- Опубліковано 28 лип 2024
- Let's talk about the recent scandal where BookTok and the hockey world collide, featuring key players like the Seattle Kraken team, Kierra Lewis, Alex Wennberg, and Felicia Wennberg. If you don't know who any of these people are, I'm here to catch you up.
TIMESTAMPS
⌛ 0:00 - An intro to the situation with a bunch of clips
⌛ 08:53 - The wife speaks up and BookTok ain't happy
⌛ 18:12 - The comments get worse
⌛ 23:13 - Thoughts on online behavior, boundaries, & consent
⌛ 30:10 - How both industries and fans commodify people
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Cindy 1-2 tiktok clips wouldve been enough, why did you put all of her imdb credit work. Hallo~ 😭😭
LMAOOO IF I HAD TO GO THRU THEM SO DO YOU. HALLO!!!
aside from the cringe her voice gave me migraine 😭
for realll xD it just kept goinggg 😭😂
I already considered walking into traffic when I heard the main culprit was black, but those videos took the decision right out of my hands and killed me instantly. It should be illegal to be this horny 😭
@@jennyjoseph778what’s that supposed to mean?
"something happened in their marriage and now she's insecure" I think people publicly sexually harassing her husband counts as something happening in her marriage yes
Yea, and the people posting those comments with laughing emojis?? When did the thought of a family being torn apart become funny? Why are we laughing at a woman’s potential despair?
@@Ineverusemychannel because they are unhappy c*nts
@@Ineverusemychannelthe irony is that these are typically the same people posting about “women empowerment” but they’re treating another woman badly to get their rocks off. They’re so fake.
and she literally explained that it had spread to their personal relationships in their lives and were making them uncomfortable irl and not just online.
You know 100% that these people would not be able to handle being in the wife’s position.
don't you just love it when you POLITELY ask people to stop sexually harrassing your husband so they bully you instead 😍
especially when they do it on pictures of your child 😍
Flashbacks to the Supernatural fandom's complete disregard of basic human decency.
10:25...just ONE thing i disagree with in the wife's statement, female athletes have ALWAYS been given the same treatment
No matter if its Rhonda rousey or norways veach volleyball team
@@selenophile5256 sadly this is true, but generally the team itself did not endorse it (although often the sport itself encourages it through for example uniform rules)
@@selenophile5256Well they never really said it doesn’t happen just that people would definitely be way less comfortable about it if the genders were reversed, I’m not sure if I’ve seen the actual team ever support this behavior when it comes to female players
If these people actually existed in the universe of their hockey romance novels they wouldn’t be the female leads they would be the crazy fans harassing them and causing the third act conflict
u live long enough to become the villain of ur own fictional fantasies...
Yeah they’re all the puck bunnies🤣
😂
They would be the crazy stalker girl locked up to help the happy ending
@@veronica5lmaaExactly. They would be that delusional stalker that harasses the main couple, tries to do some horrid bs but gets caught and gets served by everyone
“Unless you know me don’t have my name in your mouth.”
Yet she became famous for using someone she doesn’t know as a sexual fantasy and sexual harassed them at their place of work
And that’s the tea.😭
Literally what I was thinking when she said that, like if that's the case shouldn't she take her own advice?? She don't know this man, and yet...😐
That's the thing I don't understand here. She's a public figure, I think? People don't need to know who you are personally to call you out for bad behaviour.
I can't believe that people actually got mad at someone because they complained about their partner being sexually harassed online...
Sadly, I can. The internet (and people) can be such a cesspit, especially where celebs and their rightful boundaries are involved.
i think its an automatic defensive reaction from them rather than considering where the other person is coming from. they took it personally rather than tried to sympathize or be considerate
It’s the online version of when some creep call you “gorgeous” and you keep straight face and that creep get mad because you didn’t smile.
irl too going to their games and yelling obscenities while recording them
@@withcindyThat's pretty messed up. Someone says they're uncomfortable with what you're doing and you start bashing them? That's dangerous, actually.
We are all "women for women", "girl's girl", but a woman, a wife, a mom, asks the internet to treat her man less explicitly and everyone attacks her? Wow, sure ain't classy.
For real!!
It's really disturbing that they're doing this and it's so much worse knowing they do it to another woman's husband,why do so many women go after married men?? The sisterhood is bullshit!
THIS.
@GabrielleTollerson This is why Japanese male pop idols keep their love life under wraps. Their fans like they own them,or "they belong to us". Usually female SOs of pop idols get so thrashed by the fans, it sucks.
All too true being a “girl’s girl” is the biggest lie I’ve ever heard
"I had a great week and this ruined it for me" GIRLLLL HOW ABOUT THE MAN YOU SEXUALLY HARASSED AND HIS WIFE? My god the self awareness is non-existent 😭
The way I first thought that Kierra is a 19-21 year old college girl when I first heard the story only to find out that she is a tax paying 27 year old.
Haha what
she's embarrassing to say the least
💀
What
***BRUH.*** Girlie is literally 3 years younger than me?????
I feel like this entire situation can be summed up like this: "Don't fucking treat real people like fictional characters. It won't end well for you."
i too wish real people were more like fictional characters (aka written by women) but this is not the way to go lol
Yeah on this topic - your comment was a very valid rule imo - when I discovered what RPF was that was a NOPE for me for this reason (RPF to my understanding being the acronym for real person [based] fiction]) --- if it's a historic person, maybe it's fine depending on who and how you're writing them, but modern people and worse, someone alive? Nope nope nope 🙈
Am I the only person who imagines novel characters as like anime or manhwa characters? Or like at least like a blurry overall image of a person. Associating a real person as the face would be so fcking weirrddddd 😭😭 and tbh breaks the “perfect” illusion for me
I'll never complain about my brother thirsting over 2D waifus ever again sometimes 2D is better then 3D
Reminds me of how the guy who played Mr. Shoe on Glee had to come out like “hi I know my character didn’t age well but please stop saying I’m creepy I am not a character”
I still can't get over the fact that she harassed this man AT HIS JOB. The tik toks were bad enough, but can you imagine dating a construction worker and a literal stranger comes to his site just to yell "drill me daddy!!" like ??? HAVE SOME DECORUM.
The hockey team's management had invited her to the game after seeing her TikToks, so I blame them more for enabling that TBH!!
Ah good point! I highly doubt if they asked him how he felt about the invite either…
@@withcindyI hear you, both need to be held accountable.
It felt so gross to watch the tiktoks sexualizing them doing their stretches. Like. Come on. It's so nasty when they HAVE to be there, it's like they're cornered. I cannot imagine how it would feel to see that footage later and what people were saying about you. I'd never want to go out on that ice again.
I have a feeling the krakens social media team encouraged her to post tiktoks at the game like that and if they didn’t, then I imagine she must’ve thought that’s what was expected of her to do for being invited the game by the team and given merch too solely for making those types of vids in the first place. It was DEFINITELY too much tho, but I just don’t think it’s all her to blame (at least for that part of the situation)
The wife's posts were literally so thoughtfully and well written
I was genuinely impressed with how she vocalized this, had me thinking how I would love to read that dissertation.
That's why booktok hated it , because they don't read well written stories, so they never understood what the wife said
Those posts instantly made me think “this is advocacy”
@@mirai5451Im here a month later but thats the realest thing 💀💀
When that woman asked Pedro Pascal on the Disney carpet to read nasty tweets about himself I was so appalled. People are truly losing the plot.
I know. And the fact that he responded so gracefully to that was remarkable. I can't imagine having that level of self-restraint in the midst of such gross behavior.
People used to hide their embarrassing hobbies. Idk why they are so comfortable tagging and even telling everyone about their smutty fics now. SMH.🤦♀️
Dunno whats so fucking hard about tiktokers understanding that men can also be sexually harassed and withdraw consent and that justifying your blatant sexual harassment as "jokes" is fucking bad but here we are
Especially since these are romance readers who should know these things
That's exactly what I was thinking! The way she's speaking about this man is so violating. It's so gross.
@@withcindy "It Ends With Us" is popular on romance booktok despite being a story about very blatant domestic abuse so nothing about this surprises me but its still incredibly disappointing
@@starryeyes999It reminds me of people in the actual BDSM community vs people who read Fifty Shades of Grey spreading incorrect, dangerous ideas about kink. A lot of these people into more recent romance books that are popular online don't seem to care about ethics or consent. Colleen Hoover books are definitely contributing to that.
It's the stupidity for me.
Booktok: "this man is hot"
The wife of the man, that she has children with: yes, agreed, he's my man. Glad to see world caught on.
Booktok: *inserts incredibly inappropriate sexual jokes on the main*
The wife: Hey, not appropriate, tone it down, we are uncomfrotable.
Booktok: BOO, insecure!
The logic is not there, honestly. And people wonder why I avoid booktok like the plague!
Exactly! I think this is what a lot of kierra apologists are missing. Her agreeing to the fact that her husband is hot vs the gross comments that kierra made. I mean if someone is uncomfortable with you objectifying (borderline sexually harassing) their husband on your public platform with over a million followers, then simply apologise and delete your vids. Why are you texting the wife, then attacking her for not responding and then just trying to blame everyone but your own freaking self?
yeah the wife said that the harassment got to a point where they weren't able to escape it so it's really not that hard to understand that it's crossed a line which is why she spoke up about it. the wife didn't change her mind out of nowhere, the situation changed.
average tiktock user belike
People get so defensive and go straight to trying to destroy someone’s life and mental health and for what?!? Why do people take things so far, i don’t understand why it’s so hard for people online to not cross the line. Like I don’t need to TRY not to do things like that I just don’t because it’s crossing a line and icky. It doesn’t matter if it’s in person or online, doesn’t matter what gender, nor should it matter if they’re a public figure or not…it’s not okay. And if you do accidentally cross a line like APOLOGIZE and learn from it. DAMN people really have to ruin everything.
Add more reasons to why I will NEVER have tik tok
As a black woman, the thing that actually piss me off the most is the "racist allegation". Like literally, we cannot call out someone on their behaviour and wrongful act because they're black ? Y'all gotta stop using race as an excuse to not facing the consequences of your actions.
RIGHT I'm a black woman too and I usually never assume racism unless that person has a prior history or is very blatant about it and it really pisses me off cuz WHY does that always have to be your first go to??
Not a black woman but south asian - imo when we incorrectly accuse people of racism we really do a disservice to actual instances of racism and bias.
@@LilMah as a black women, I totally agree ❤
I think this kinda the result of girlboss feminism. People think it’s empowering to do exactly what the oppressor has done and don’t realize they are perpetuating a system that treats people like sexual objects. While violence against men is not systemic, it doesn’t mean it can’t occur on a personal level. If someone draws a boundary it should be respected.
This is a really well-written comment, you're spot on.
ough right on the nose.
I think it actually takes courage for a man to set a boundary or file a complaint in these cases, because you know they are going to take flak for it. Not to diminish what can happen when a woman asks to not be sexually harassed in her workplace, but society doesn't set the same standards when women harass or abuse men.
Thing is, it’s not like woman aren’t ashamed by their abuse either, yknow? Women take plenty flack for daring to accuse public figures of abuse, because to acknowledge abuse often means acknowledging systemic issues in our society. Shame and worry are not unique emotions to men in this situation- instead I dare say a man is experiencing the exact SAME feelings a woman is. Will I be believed? Will someone think I’m being an attention seeker, that I was asking for it? That I should be flattered? What if people HATE me for saying someone they know harassed or abused me? Are thoughts anybody experiencing abuse will think, man or woman.
@@pharoahcaraboo9610 No, I know. I've luckily only had one time that I should have reported someone, but I held off precisely because I was new to my taskforce / location, and was afraid of how it would be seen, I only told a few women that I already knew there about it and didn't want to bring it up to the bosses. One of my friends who had been through the same thing gave me specific verbiage that she said was what HR would want to see in an email, and shot back an email begging me not to report him and avoided me in the halls after that. Many months later my boss got a call from the client about one of their employees being afraid she was going to end up locked in his basement or something. My boss asked me how he's only just hearing that he's done this to other women at the office and no one told him, and I start to apologize, and he's, "Geez, you too?!?" So I wasn't even the only one on the taskforce this guy went stalker weird on and swept it under the rug, because that's what we do.
But I just imagine that men would be even more afraid to report sexual harassment or physical abuse because that's going to be taken even less seriously.
The way Cindy deadpanned “clearly she’s passionate about thirsting after white men” like it’s knitting or some other legit hobby. 💀
Plssss I need her to love herself
it's so embarrassing. There's a whole group of black women and men that seem to worship white people. I like interracial couples but then there's those that just said 'I want white only.'
sooooo apparently she said that she doesn’t like reading “diverse books” because reading should be an “escape” LIKE GIRL
@@leeh4669 the way I actually choked on my drink from laughter, laughter from how insane this is. 💀madness.
@@leeh4669 the only thing she needs to escape from is white men. it's time to be free sister
His wife makes a very interesting point: if the sexes were switched, would this kind of thirsting still be considered harmless? His wife’s statement was more than fair.
“Not classy, Felicia.” Says the woman who is publicly begging another woman’s husband for sex 🤣 Definitely some projection happening here
LOL right like i dont think ur the expert on classiness here girl
i literally gasped at the “not classy felicia” comment. I can’t believe grown people are this embarrassing online!!!!
Isn't there a whole community of men doing this exact thing to a female gymnast right now?
@@sparksfly6149 yeah i've seen that on Instagram lol. It's either thirst comments or "women ☕". You can tell these guys are either kids or unemployed
@@sparksfly6149 and people are rightly disturbed by it.
Felicia actually being the real life main character of these books is such an interesting point. I think the reason some of those booktokers were not able to sympathize with her is because she’s not a fictional character they can relate to or project onto. A real life woman who already has the man can’t be the vessel for their self insert fantasies.
Fr because someone like a famous athlete's wife is literally the protagonist in the books they read!
I like the "if our son was straight" comment, it's nice to see a hockey family that's open to their son potentially not being straight.
right? like the wife is so smart, compassionate and well spoken. I need to read her dissertation
Consent can be withdrawn at any time. Consent can be withdrawn at any time. Consent can be withdrawn at any time. Really disappointing to see how many of the thirst supporters are trampling all over that just so they can keep going with the “jokes.”
the world would be so much more peaceful if people realised the thing about consent smh
Exactly
I love this comment
the club basically paid her to do this tho 👀
Like tf Booktok means??? It's her husband and feelings change. She thought it was funny at first but now it isn't. Getting so defensive over sexually harassing a man THEY DO NOT KNOW is disgusting.
Imagine getting offended that someone's wife doesn't want you to sexually harass their husband at his workplace...
Imagine harassing someone's wife on pics of their own child
Maybe they should stop reading all that smut and pick up a constitution instead.
right lol and they have the nerve to make assumptions abt THEIR marriage and call her insecure like girl touch some fucking grass lol
Those videos from the games were super uncomfortable. I can't imagine trying to do a simple stretch and having people catcall me 😬
the tiktoks u put up as examples for her was so painful to sit through it felt like it lasted years and it just kept getting worse 💀💀💀💀
New torture tactic
I had to skip through that bit, secondhand embarrassment was too strong 🥲
She got mad that a woman didn't respond to her weird DMs within A DAY. Because everyone is just so online that they should know to respond to all social media within a few hours, especially if they have a family in real life.
Does this grown adult woman realize that she's acting exactly like the creepy dude we've all encountered?
Don't people care about their digital footprint anymore 😭
Judging by my channel, def not
It makes me so angry that the immediate assumption was that Felicia was “insecure”… but they never considered that Alex, the SUBJECT OF THESE COMMENTS, might have confided in his spouse, who he loves and trusts, about being uncomfortable. Maybe Felicia is just a good, loving partner who’s willing to step back from the jokes and support him.
yea it's not like felicia is bringing this up outta nowhere? she is his wife and mother of his child, they have obviously talked about this situation behind the scenes. clearly people did not want to recognize how much felicia is part of his private life
@@withcindy
I feel like unless you know the dynamic if one parter says you are making their partner uncomfortable you take it a face value and listen to them, like its really not that hard
For me it's really funny, because I've been in a similar (though way smaller scale, obviously) situation before. One time, a male friend took my side and the bullies said I'm just insecure and need him to save me. The other time, a female friend stood up for me, and they bashed us both. I don't really want to make this a gender thing, but I can't help but wonder how both would play out if I was a guy.
@@minano-nim6795 I don’t think you’re making it a gender thing. The world around us already makes everything a “gender thing”. It probably would be different if you were a guy. We can stop making everything about gender when people stop treating men and women differently!
@@RSStarfire yeah, the reason why I added that before posting is that I realised even as a guy, it could still lead to more bullying depending what culture you come from. If I were a guy and another guy would stand up for me, in my culture and hometown, it would be social suicide to an extent that, as a girl, I had very few options to reach. Sexism and misogyny really strike both ways unless you very strictly conform to all the stupid unreachable ideals...
Kiera’s response is honestly disgusting. It’s exactly the same thing guys say when they get flack for sexual harassment: “why can’t you take a joke”, “you should be flattered”, “you liked it before,” etc. I wish there was a silver lining with misogyny where women would at least understand that they shouldn’t treat others the way they’ve been harassed their whole lives, but apparently some people don’t even have that basic self awareness :/
this is why i dont support all women. some of these bitches are very dumb.
Plus, The wife wrote her thesis on consent, this is obviously her area of both personal and professional interest! She was the best person to respond on this.
His wife handled this so well. I cannot BELIEVE this went on for so long.
I think his wife has a PhD in sexual consent or a similar topic which explains how she wrote very thoughtfully !!
@@withcindy Kudos to her because I would not have been so well spoken or kind lmao
yeah that was a mature response and very well worded
right! that’s what i came to comment. much respect for her
she was way more kind than i would've been
Watching her clips at the game was SO UNCOMFORTABLE. It felt like the equivalent of those creeps that film women working out, playing in sports and such. It was GROSS.
Omg TRUE! I was disgusted by how she screamed "krak my back" PUBLICLY at him at the game and filming him doing the groin stretch irl like it was some sort of sexual behavior. Like i get thirsting over him online and making comments online but when you bring that shit into real life and actually start harassing the very real person that you are thirsting over it crosses the line.
Thiiiiisssss
I felt exactly the same way.
Fr imagine the guy who stalls you at the gym getting free front row tickets to your show because he’s famous online for talking dirty about you.
What were those males doing though on the floor? It looked weird.
Tiktok has ruined a generation because it's taught people that other people are there for their entertainment and they can film them without asking. I live in fear that some tiktoker is gonna film me without knowing and post some judgmental or exploitative video of me
I thought it was just me! Becoming a meme has become one of my greatest fears.
True
This is so true omg
So true. I saw a TikTok of a potter molding clay and all the top comments were sexual (bc he put his fingers in holes in the clay). This type of behavior is normalized on there, like they don't consider they're talking to a real human in a public space.
I caught some little asshole recording my mother crying in her pj's on a bench once, I literally stay up at night horrified that video could end up a meme someday
i can't remember the last time cindy's videos weren't sponsored that's how YOU KNOW this is a different type of ridiculousness😭
Exactly, I never give up my bag so u know this is a new level we are dealing with
People have gotten WAY too comfortable thirsting in public. Tagging and DMing him? Hollering in public? Keep that to the group chat please😭
what happened to "hello"? "how are you"? 😭
And what did they honestly expect was going to happen by tagging and DMing him? Did they think he'd leave his wife and child for a drooling fan? Did they think he'd come skidding off the ice in the middle of a game and be like, "the way you screeched 'Krack my back' across the stadium just really gets me going"? This isn't a romance novel, people! It's real life 😭
watching everyone chant normal "go team" stuff at the game while she basically cat calls him was so uncomfortable it crossed the line so far
million dalla pussayyy
@mentallyunstable1926 Right? Like lady, this is a sporting event. There are kids there.
As a black woman myself, it really bothered me that Kierra used her race to deflect from valid criticism, especially since in the past she dismissed black romance and said she doesn’t want to read it based on the (false) assumption that all black romances are centered around racism.
It just feels strange to have your entire account revolve around thirsting over white characters written by white authors, publicly admit to avoiding diverse books, but when you get called out for sexual harassment, suddenly you care about the black community 😭.
That part!!! Like nah, don’t try to claim us now when you’re doing everything else to distance yourself from the black community
she claims felicia is targeting her as a black creator but u KNOW that if that white man said the N word she would excuse it 😭
Wait, that was her too?? I was wondering why these two topics started trending near the same time.
MESS
@@TheNumnutRandomness Yup that was her 😭. I saw that video of her saying she doesn’t want to read black romance books a few weeks ago.
Imagine my shock when I find out she’s the same person in this booktok drama.
AND she has defended white men saying the n word and being racist. Like??
me too. it's very weird
"This Felicia chick" girl she's his WIFE.
"she was doing it too" SHES HIS WIFE
After listening to Kierra say 'we're just having fun', 'it's for fun,' 'it's not serious,' I couldn't help but think about how I've heard racists and misogynists use this exact excuse. Great points, Cindy!
When men sexually harass women they say the same things. "It's just a joke" and "locker room talk" come to mind
@@kimilynPyes!! It’s exactly like locker room talk!! I have no idea how these people don’t see how their behavior is literally sexual harassment
And the way she calls his WIFE "that woman"
@@localabsurdist6661 exactly like omg
@@marielcarey4288 or when they say she wants to be the y/n???? SHE'S HIS WIFE AND HE'S A REAL PERSON??? SHE IS HIS Y/N!!!!
Treating her like she's some obsessed fangirl who refuses to share of her own husband. It's....vile.
When fandoms crossover into real people's lives you know it's gone too far.
The excuse “oh it was just a joke don’t take it seriously” is literally what men say when they make sexist comments. It was alarming to see so many women using the same language to defend their harassment
Yeah I’m not sure how she doesn’t see how hypocritical she is….
exactly
it's sad but most women condemn this behavior on men and do the exact same thing
shes harmless than the males. also she boosted his ego sm now he should thank em cuz hes not that attractive tbh
YES. This.
It’s so so disgusting how they actually invited her to a game just so that she could sexualize them and talk about having sex with them while filming them imagine feeling so leered at
Honestly the lack of inhibition that SO many people on the internet have when it comes to celebrities/famous people in general is insane. 🤦🏾♀️ This whole situation reminds me of the thirsting over Pedro Pascal a few months ago. There is literally no excuse for sexually harassing someone like this, no matter their celebrity status, looks, whatever. And it’s made so much worse if they’re male since people think that sexually harassing guys is only innocent “fun”
Poor Pedro, I'm glad he doesn't seem to be swarmed with thirst comments as much now 😭
Not them blaming Felicia, his WIFE💀 also like I’m pretty sure she and her baby son go to his games?? Imagine your baby asking what krack my back means and why some unknown woman keeps yelling it at their dad. The NERVE of these people.
Maybe when the son grows up he will learn all about this since the internet is forever 💀
@@withcindy He will hear about it. Even if the kid doesn't look it up, the other kids at school will.
The juxtaposition of Sierra's absolutely cringeworthy videos and Cindy's polite deadpan commentary is sending me 😂 "she's just passionate about thirsting over white men"
LOL me trying to be objective
HELLOOOOOO
@@TuesdaysArt omg hi baby ❤❤
I had such a visceral reaction to those clips that I was expecting Cindy to have a horrified reaction too but the calmness is even better
This is crazy because sexual harassment towards men is NEVER addressed. It's brushed under the rug and seen as him being lucky. This is exactly why the Rudy Farias case resulted in no charge for his mother sexually assaulting him for years. Leave people alone, leave their bodies alone, and keep your comments to yourself.
And who are the ones to call male victims ‘lucky’ for being assaulted by women? Other guys.
@@Twat_Dirt honestly, ive seen a lot of women doing it too, if not more than men.
@@RIPGoldenIskye I see both women and men doing it together, but it's mainly the kind who think they're so strong or smart, so it “couldn't happen to them” or just straight-up perverts who get turned on by the idea of being assaulted.
Idk if it happens now, but when I was younger, it showed up in cases of teachers dating their students. Male teachers, looked down on. Female teachers hitting on their male students - the student was called lucky or the response was a yesssssss."
That's so true. My partner likes to wear kilts, and whenever he does, there's always at LEAST one woman who makes some stupid, suggestive "joke" about what's under it. He's even had women grab his kilt and try to lift it up! If a man tried to do that to a woman's skirt, it would universally be recognized as sexual harassment, but because it's a woman doing that to a man's kilt, it's ok?? It's so fucked up, and those women need to learn to act better. 😡
Wait, so to summarize Kierra's argument: "Sexually harassing people doesn't seriously impact ME, so nobody else is allowed to be affected by it."
I think the team completely abandoned their responsibility for exacerbating the situation - they just deleted, unfollowed, and then stayed silent and basically left the Wennbergs to fend for themselves.
so true. the manager or PR team should have spoken up and drawn the line instead of making the wennbergs fend for themselves. especially since they were the ones that started it
@@withcindy I'd like to say that I'm surprised the team still hasn't said anything...but , I'm not.
It’s wild that they went along with this behavior in the first place, I would have thought that professional sports teams would have procedures to deal with obsessed fan/stalker type behavior
@@rampagingrabbit9042 And according the ESPN when they reached out to the team for comment, the team just referred them to the statements made by the Wennbergs. Their SM team needs to be fired.
I can understand wanting to not feed into the attention/drama cycle and just letting it pass... but that's not acceptable when you bought her a jersey saying BOOKTOK smfh
Kierra's constant doubling down on how "it was all a joke" "its not that serious" just reminds me of all the times Ive been catcalled. Sure, to you, yes. But to the person on the other side, its uncomfortable and harassment, plain and simple. Also kudos to the wife for being so well spoken and calm about this.
I got catcalled myself when I was with a friend, and I agree that it's disgusting. Definitely made us uncomfortable. 😣💦
I hate hearing her say that over and over when it’s obviously VERY serious to everyone involved. Why is she so upset if it’s not that serious?
By her logic it's just a joke when a man does the same shit. Holy fuck these people are insane and stupid
Like that's what I've always said when it comes to how my dad and brother would bully me, my sister, and my mom--yes! It's funny to you! BECAUSE YOU'RE BEING A BULLY. That's the literal definition of it not being okay, you're having a good time _and we're _*_not_*
"other people like when I sexuallize them/their husbands so YOU should like it too" great logic. "You used to find it funny so you're not allowed to change your mind as things get more intense" perfect understand of consent and boundaries
Considering that English is neither her nor her husbands first language (they’re Swedish) I’m even more impressed by how articulate she was in her statement on her story.
Scandinavian people speak English well. I've heard a lot of them sound American or nearly so too.
@@sao-me1lt I know because I’m also Swedish just like them and I can confirm that we are pretty good. We start learning it in like first grade so we have a solid foundation to build on.
@@swecheekypanda That's nice. I wish the US emphasized foreign language more
@@sao-me1ltlmfao changing the subject when you got politely swatted down is super funny
BookTok is the tenth layer of hell
That's why I stay far away
I don’t get how any professional organization can look at a woman screaming sexual innuendos at the top of her lungs about one of their employees, and think, “yeah, that’s the crowd we wanna pander to.” No wonder why Jack Hughes refuses to have TikTok.
@@tehbeernerdwhat’s worst if it was a man doing it, people will go crazy and shit on him. While a woman can “freely” be this weird. Like when will people realize even women are capable of what shitty men are able to do?
i can’t believe how unprofessional the Krackens’ social media team was by even entertaining the community of people who literally couldn’t care less about the sport and only want to sexually harass their own players😒
They learned their lesson the hard way
It’s Kraken - not krackens’ 🙄
Thank you! This is the part I’m baffled by. The wife and player should’ve immediately went and filed a complaint with the team’s front office for endangering him and their safety by legitimizing that BokTokker.
@@ToDoListChecklist another commenter pointed out that the hockey player and his wife are from sweden so they are likely in the US with a work visa and probably didnt want to jeopardize his career and visa
@withcindy And that’s okay. But, the Krakens are an American team who abide by American laws. They placed that man in harms way and now are backing away from the BokTokker as if she came out of left field with her content and is randomly making videos about one of their players. I am all for giving the content creator her just dues in terms of blame. But, we can’t act like this woman just appeared out of left field in the PLAYER’S box out of thin air. She was bought there by his employer and for that reason alone, the team should be getting as much if not more smoke as that BokTokker. In no one’s commentary have I seen them correctly pointing out that the BookToker was used by the PR Team and why this may have made her feel a ways. Yes, she took out her anger on the wife, but there is a case to be made that homegirl, like many an influencer/fan, has been used by an industry and thrown to the wolves when the corporation got in hot water (think Shein, etc.).
As a black woman, I felt EXTREMELY uncomfortable watching that woman’s videos. Like, that was far too much to say about someone online- even if he was single. I feel like you can thirst after someone without being so explicit. She obviously has a large following of people who don’t feel the same way I do, but it felt predatory to me. A man should read out loud what she was saying because I guarantee their view would change.
So because ur a black woman, others can't relate in a good way to this other girl about a fiction story ?
Same. Felt so predatory and i had to skip over when she was talking because it was just so embarrassing and vile
Thank you for talking about the team’s management fanning the flames and kind of leaving the players and wife out to dry. Obvi Kierra acted way out of line in her reaction, but I think the team made it way worse by inviting her to games, pushing these videos, and then not saying anything when the players got uncomfortable but rather leaving it to the players and their families.
Yeah they are def the source for all of this tbh!! They enabled and emboldened this type of behavior
@@canone.colombeidk why you’re talking about Asia because we don’t even have to exit this country, that’s exactly what American marketing and PR agencies do as well and have done for years now 😂 you’ve got to jump on social media trends and take advantage of any attention given you if it’s getting viral traction
I just can't understand how some people genuinely think this is okay like do you not hear yourselves??
To be fair they got a lot of positive reinforcement thru their bubble and the team going along with it so I can see how this happens
another example of how algorithms just put people in echo chambers. surrounding yourself with people who have the same mindset as you is not a bad thing per se. that's the backbone of communities, offline and online. but when no one offers you a different pov or challenges your perspective, why the need to change the way you think at all?
Makes me all the more grateful that, even as a kid, I had a mind to be respectful towards my assorted actor crushes. I stuck to just watching their movies, reading some fanfic, and then talking about them online with other fans. But never did I go so far as to get all personally weird about my attraction, because whether on or off camera, I recognize them as real people. 👏🙅♀
@@DJtheBlack-RibbonedRose right?? reminds me of all those kpop fans with the thirst/daddy edits. you could argue that it's to be expected when the industry relies on their looks, but still 🗿 maybe my demi ass just can't comprehend thirsting over someone for their looks but geez what ever happened to liking someone for their personality??
and it doesn't seem to occur to people that it's essentially the gender flipped ver of those creepy guys catcalling. as if they are entitled to making comments like this just because it's a public figure we're talking about. doing it on a public space is bad enough, but tagging and dm-ing the person in question so they can see it too??? a whole new level of insanity
Judging by the state of that wig, she doesn’t see herself either…
Kierra specifically bothers me because she talked about being a “Black creator”, meanwhile she never recommends Black books or authors, even flat out saying she wouldn’t do so. She thirsts after White men, some of whom are racist against Black people, and she never platforms other Black creators. She’s only a Black creator so far as she can defend herself from valid criticism. She’s only a Black creator after being called out for sexually harassing someone. And people jumped to her defense because they know that if she’s wrong for objectifying a real person, then they’re also wrong for projecting actors, athletes, and other celebrities onto they’re fictional book boyfriends. It’s all deeply unserious.
yea it's very telling that she can excuse one of her celeb crushes for saying the N word, but doesn't excuse a woman for asking for boundaries and makes it about her being black
I feel like some of her appeal that got her a following was her use of AAVE in this super white context. Do you, sis, but it’s giving “I’m good with tokenism” to me.
@@jayeejohn830exactly, like the way she spoke gave me high "performative" energy. If that makes sense. Like, I've been around animated people b4, but she sounded more "overdone".
Slowly chews food* Oh that’s unfortunate smh
@@jayeejohn830bingo
This whole situation was just absolutely unsettling. Felicia handled things with such grace (a lot more than I certainly would’ve put if I was in her shoes). And honestly, I hate how people expect victims to handle things with utmost perfection to appease the person or group of people who violated them. She literally had “fans” come up to her and admit to performing sexual actions with her own husband’s jersey on. THAT IS WEIRD! It didn’t matter how Felicia reacted: a boundary was set and it should’ve been respected. And as a Black reader, to see Kiera who has always dismissed promoting or reading BIPOC work suddenly care about the Black community when she’s being rightfully called out for harassment… just pure insanity. A conversation on consent clearly needs to be had in this sphere of booktok. And it sucks too because this will be associated with all spheres of booktok, even though a lot of people do not condone these actions.
I think another mind boggling part was seeing them try to claim that they put the Seattle Kraken on the map. It’s an NHL team! The highest league of hockey in Canada and the US. Some of these players play in the Olympics. They don’t need y’all to make them known!
Very true, even if Felicia was more tactless in her statement or reacted in an angry way, a boundary has been set and they need to listen. Plus it's clear her statement isn't just something she thought privately; this is something she would obviously have talked about with her husband too
The whole idea of "face-claiming" gave me hives and I started involuntarily excreting poison from all my pores like one of those toads.
Right? Like, could you imagine a group of people thirsting over a photo a photo taken as a promo for your job? And then they just ascribe a whole bunch of stuff that has *nothing* to do with you to your face. Uncomfy. And it would probably be even worse if you were face claimed as a villain. Stick to fan art people, please.
I didn't think people did it outside of roleplaying, seems way more appropriate in a private setting where its not about the person more about the character, seems weird to do it in books...
I feel like it's one step up from the celebrity castings you see everywhere. It's almost impossible to find a fandom where that doesn't happen.
I don't have an issue with someone saying they picture a book character as Henry Cavill or wish they could see a movie with a specific actor playing a certain character. That's fine.
The line though is definitely extending you feelings about a book character to the real human behind the photo.
@@hurricaneofcats yeah, I agree. I was a massive Maraunders fanfic reader throughout my teen years where "face claiming" was a pretty big thing. I think there is a distinction between "hey this actor kind of looks like what I imagine this character looking like if it was turned into a movie" and projecting a fictional character's personality onto a real life person and sexualising them based on that. When you start to see someone as an extension of a fictional character and not a real person and make that public enough that the real person can see it, is where the line is drawn for me.
Whats happening here w the hockey players is not a normal case of face claiming, which is something that has been around in fandoms for a long time. Its normally just to give fellow readers a more concrete idea of what a character is supposed to look like, not giving readers a whole real person to project their fantasies onto and harass in real life
The funniest thing about this whole drama was people saying "she thinks she's the main character", and "who does she think she is" TO THE WIFE!! When all of these people read these hockey books because they like to imagine themselves as the hockey player's girlfriend/wife. So really is she the main character or not?
YEAH SHE IS LITERALLY THE MAIN CHARACTER LITERALLY AND LEGALLY. ALSO, LET'S NOT FORGET THE FACT THAT SHE POPPED A CHILD OUT FROM HER BODY 😀
felicia is being such a classic mary sue right now
It's so funny, b/c the first thing that went through my head was, "If the love interests were A) the love of the main character's life B) A stalker who was screaming sexual harassment and stalking him, who do would YOU think is the main character?"
... Then I remembered this was booktok, so possessive stalking and harassment is actually the norm for love interests 🫣
Exactly!!! SHE IS THE WIFE😂
Omg! the they are the underdeveloped sluts that's thirsting for the male love interest, but she's the real deal 😂 love your take on this
woman: "please don't sexually harass my husband"
internet: "..and i took that personally"
HOW DARE SHE DEFEND HER HUSBAND AND FATHER OF HER CHILD 😡😡😡
What's weird to me is that her immediate response was anger when Felicia's request was so respectful and mild tbh.
“just because someone reads a lot of books, doesn’t mean they have any reading comprehension” 💀💀 funny but TRUE. this is really gross what they’re doing to that man. it reminds me of how women will treat some male strippers and entertainers thinking that just because they’re women and they’ve been victimized by men before it gives them a pass to be extra predatory and rude to these men doing a job. HAVE SOME DECORUM LADIES, my god!!!
This isn’t even Tea, this is Cindy standing up for what’s right. Preach girl!
Aka common sense
Which the world, and or our corner of the Internet needs right now.
I always love when Cindy makes vids like this, she's so straightforward and well spoken, she'd be a great sociology student
People in this situation and in general need to understand that consent can be revoked at anytime, if a person was okay with it that doesn’t mean that they will always be okay with it especially with how extreme they had got it’s honestly disgusting.
Exactly 💯
EXACTLYthis
Yup all the comments and the tiktoker herself saying "well obviously she went along with it", like OK AT FIRST and then you guys crossed the line so hard so she and her objectified partner withdrew their consent and expressed their dislike?? The circular reasoning and positive reinforcement in that circle is crazy.
@@letmedream111 it’s honestly mind boggling how they thought it was okay to do in the first place
Not to mention, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the social media team just hopped onto the trend to get traction without ever discussing it with the players. Who knows how many of them actually consented to being used as thirst traps to begin with. Especially seeing as men tend to be a lot more hesitant to speak up when they're uncomfortable in situations like this.
That Kierra girl is crazy and the fact she doesn't realize she is wrong, it's worrisome.
....Why do so-called progressives always resort to ableism?
Kierra’s immaturity from beginning to the end is mind blowing. I’m so glad I never knew who she was until the drama.
Apparently she is a 27 year old grown woman. Holy shit. This sounds like the actions of an 18 year old college student still trying to navigate social boundaries while doing shots of Fireball.
@@penguinsrbirds2TWENTY-SEVEN????
I thought she was 22 because of the way she acted! 😮
I feel so bad for Felicia.....but the husband really said " I am not smart enough to write as eloquently as her"
Weaponized incompetence at it again!! Lol jk
at least he's honest
Well, everyone has their strengths. He is smart enough to recognize that this is his wife’s strength more than his; so he’s like “I am going to leave this part to her; she’s got this.”
I took that as a tongue-in-cheek comment on his part, a guy secure enough to give props to his wife with the PhD.
@@withcindyJust wanted to let you know you made me let go of the breath I didn't know I was holding. I did a haha hehe at that.
Kierras entire argument is that the wife had a change of heart. So? People are not allowed to change their minds?
the harassment escalated a lot so it's not like the wife changed her mind out of nowhere either. not disagreeing with you at all though!! I just wanted to add that because kierra ignores the wife explaining how the comments about her husband crossed a line after a point. of course seeing a few people saying her husband is hot is very different from repeated sexual comments but kierra doesn't comprehend this somehow ?
@bitterorange7843yessss
My husband is a nurse and gets sexually harassed by co-workers and patients. He says it makes him feel so gross but he’s scared of saying anything because people don’t handle sexual harassment of men the same way. 😓
If he reports and HR won’t address it or there’s a serious and pernicious issue going on you should talk to a lawyer ASAP honestly
He really should. He might be pleasantly surprised how HR do handle it, because the law really is there for everyone, not just the first group who complained about the injustice. Maybe also see if there's a 'Dignity At Work' group available. It's usually a group of non-HR people who function as a sympathetic advice and listening service to help people who are being harrassed and they can be extremely helpful in sorting this kind of thing. Good luck.
Her being so confused as to why Felicia is “attacking” her is so funny 😂 when someone is upset at a company they go for the CEO, the face of the company. Of course they don’t go for the interns.
She’s the main one who has been fanning the flames so of course she gets called out.
Those were my thoughts too. She was the biggest fish and had soooo many videos, so of course she was the prime example, even though she wasn't the only example. The wife may not have felt comfortable calling out individuals who aren't specifically content creators
Shoutout to Felicia for being articulate.
Yeah her response was very well written and considerate
Someone said the reason why booktok is having trouble with her response is because it’s well-written😭😭💀
@@katieamos6600please😂
@@katieamos6600 LOL! that's hilarious
@@katieamos6600 a burn if I've ever heard one
but his wife was so unbelievably well spoken and her response was so chefs kiss... whens the wife fan club
She rly giving wifey material fr
fan club? girl by the sound of it you about to stir another drama...stop that shit and let us move on with our lives (friendly tone don't worry)
im about to make a tiktok subculture just for her fr im ready to get my own jersey
@@galerights8983 is this a joke I can't tell😭
@@thatb1h855 It is! They specified at the end that they are retorting but in a deliberate and friendly tone of voice, so it’s all good. 🖤
Another troubling thing is that consent can be given and taken. The couple said they found it funny and they accepted it at first. But as also stated it kept going and kept impending in their lives so now they revoke their consent.
This! Them finding it a bit funny and expected at first is normal. They likely have had celebrity crushes, posters on their walls and conversations about "hall passes" with friends. They likely just laughed at it because it's a clear wall between it. Very much "these people are onlookers and not part of our life". But with the escalation it became more up close which makes total sense that it would change their reaction.
I love how all these people assume Felicia “changed her mind” all of a sudden…and not that they’ve taken it too far and made everyone uncomfortable
No like actually imagine a man coming to a women’s gymnastics meet and screaming obscenities like that!!! The wife was so respectful I would’ve gone insane if I was her
Whole groups of men were showing up to LSU gymnastics meets this year just to see Livvy Dunne. They had to up security and she’s said she has to do all online classes bc she doesn’t feel safe going in person 😢 like what is WRONG with people??
@@carolineblueskies that’s disgusting omg!!! I feel so bad for her 😭
The lack of self awareness, the lack of boundaries. So disgusting
Defining features of hard-core shipping since HP shipping wars, if not earlier.
Do you know how badly you’ve fucked up to make a pro hockey player comment on something? Those guys NEVER say anything
The biggest drama here is that Cindy...… doesn't have a sponsor. I thought hell would freeze over before I'd ever see this happen. I'm physically shaking 🤧🤧
Ikr.... Truly concerning I gave up my bag for this
@@withcindy Devastating even
The lack of critical thinking skills that some people have is insane. It's very clear that Alex felt uncomfortable and told his wife and she took charge in a responsible and classy manner. The manager and social media team is also definitely at fault for encouraging this behaviour.
I'm astonished, truly. Do people forget that these are real people???? "Oh this is tiktok, this is for fun", the person you're talking about is not having fun, it's harassment
I get making thirst jokes bc I do that too but the moment the person involved says they're not cool with that u NEED to listen cuz then that's not a joke anymore, that's harassment
These people mad cause the real person isn't actually their idealized fictional husband puppet
I feel like this kind of thirsting should be limited to fictional characters. Unsolicited sexually explicit comments about real people can have a pervasive negative impact on the person, their image and reputation, especially when it becomes an internet phenomenon.
and because of how we value capitalism, companies and social media accounts definitely take advantage of people's thirsting in order to make their employee (whether that's an actor, singer, or athlete) more appealing and profitable
imagine explaining this to a non-reader. like “oh yeah a woman was getting attacked online for asking people to stop posting sexual comments and tagging her husband in them.”
Kierra: I am the chillest f*cking person.
Kierra: *also makes a 20 video ranting about how she should just be able to aggressively thirst over whoever she wants*
Also, for all these people coming for this man's wife, with the way commentary seems to have ramped up around this guy, as his partner, I don't blame her for feeling uncomfortable and potentially even being a bit concerned for her safety since people seem to be escalating beyond normal boundaries.
I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HOCKEY OR THE SITUATION BUT I AM FEELING EXTREME SECONDHAND EMBARRASSMENT
I'm here to bring u up to speed and we will be mortified together
@@withcindy I purposely avoided this issue on tiktok but here i am 😭😭😭
SAME
“You just have to look like you’ve never been hate-crimed” LMAO I’ve never heard something more true 😂
it's many people's type for sure
I’m not from the US but white people can still be hatecrimed for being gay or trans for example, right? Or that is described by a different word?
Sorry, I’m not a native English speaker.
Wow. His wife was VERY understanding, wasn’t “too sensitive” whatsoever, and very eloquently explained her position and was 10000% justified.
Reminds me of the response booktokers had when gay men spoke up about women writing m/m romances in exploitative, stereotyping and harmful ways. Mostly lots of comments filled with bullying and, ironically, homophobia. Booktok tends to respond poorly to any criticism.
similar is happenning to mlm mangas, manhwas and manhuas written by straight women
@@user-se8cw3qw8pI'll literally mention that i don't mind straight women writing mlm stuff and that the whole origin of like, the yaoi genre is nuanced and interesting before I make a comment saying that maybe straight women shouldn't profit off of edgy media depicting gay men as sexual predators constantly and people will accuse me of hating women authors. It's so stupid over there
@@user-se8cw3qw8pCan I just add my two cents? There is no representation of female presenting people who hate gender stereotypes in romance or fiction. I know as a female presenting person who abhors the classical female sexual and romantic role with every fibre of my being, that imagining yourself as getting to be dominant, not just sexually but romantically does not exist in f/m romance at all. Also, not every female presenting person is a straight woman. I think this debate is much more nuanced than you give it credit for. Those of us attracted to men but unable to escape being seen as women, being seen as automatically submissive have no representation at all. I am gender fluid. I present as female, but I hate traditional romance,.sex etc between men and women. We need a space as well.
Agreed, this is my experience as an asexual agender (female presenting) person as well
@@anne-zh2kd As a female presenting person, I also dislike the "traditional" female roles that are typically depicted in romances. But, I can tell you that there are communities on the internet who like and make content that does not depend on those stereotypical roles. You just have to find those communities. It's very niche but it does exist and it's like a breath of fresh air. We don't need to be perpetuating harmful mlm media in order to find a space.
“I might as well do crack” is so unhinged I love Cindy
Crack would be more enjoyable
I get embarassed for myself when I silently thirst over a single man know irl. I cannot imagine publicly and loudly thirsting this much over a married man I do not know...
Rightttt?!!!
Ikr so embarrassing😵
Ik, as someone who would usually admire from afar, i would rather die than be acting this way
Felicia’s responses were really thoughtful and articulate which is probably why booktok is having such a hard time understanding her
I really think the Krakens' social media team fumbled the bag with this one. An official social media profile is often what people consider as representing a team, so I don't fully blame people for thinking this was an okay thing to do if they were encouraged. We often think that big companies, sports teams etc have their stuff figured out, but they often don't. I'm pretty sure the social media team didn't check with any of the players if the sexualizing content they were posting was okay with them.
The energy that woman puts into thirsting for that man is more energy than I’m comfortable seeing in regard to anything.
I wish I had that much energy for things
Every consecutive "HELLO" in that first clip of hers sapped my energy more and more
Same. I can get really deeply into the wonders of nature and animals, but damn I can't deal with that woman's energy.
I give the wife a gold star on handling this situation with grace. If it was my husband, I would be so petty and brutal
And God damn those tik toks are so embarrassing!!! 😭😭😭
FR she’s a better bitch than me cus I wouldn’t have been eloquent when bitches are leaving comments saying they masterbate on my husbands jersey
she knew if she spoke rudely that people wouldn't understand her message... and yet ppl didnt understand her message anyway 😭
@withcindy Reading comprehension went out the window for everyone that day I guess 😭
Me and my husband used to do cosplay, just for fun not a huge following. And one time I had someone share one of our cosplay photos and comment how much they wanted to join as a third as I'll put it. It was far more explicit than that. I messaged them to ask them to calm down, and that it made me and my husband uncomfortable. They took it well, but I had some online acquaintances that were hot on my case about it cause I wasn't allowing them to express their sexuality freely. Or I was "shaming". This was nearly 10 years ago. It's crazy to see some people still struggle with proper behavior. Thirst all you want over a character, leave real people alone if they dont consent
People think they can treat real human beings like fictional characters and consume them like media or a product.
If a random person relayed their explicit sexual fantasies about me to me, I would consider it as harassment of a sexual nature. Keep those to yourself.
In this case, she should have personally apologized to his wife when it was made clear that this was making them uncomfortable, it would have died there.
her mentioning that she's a sagittarius in the middle of her rant took me out omfgggg
the celestial stars told me to harass this man
as a sagittarius we do not claim her
I'm a Sagittarius and the shit is f*cking weird
Kiera's voice is giving me a headache, but Cindy's voice is somehow calming it down this video is a rollercoaster
hahaha for once my vocal fry is considered soothing!!
kiera is a female king bach. feeds into anti black stereotypes for white audiences. ya hate to see it.
I was looking for this comment and I found it 🫶🏻
My exact sentiments. Thank you
Yes, I was thinking, "Girl why are you yelling at meee" for each clip.
I also love how she kept downplaying her role. She started this movement of “krak my back” and even claimed that it was because of her that the team “gained clout” but also was like “why am I the one being called out :((((((“ like maybe it is because you are a major figure in this??? Idk man take some accountability. Say “my bad! So sorry” and have that be it.
As someone who has done all sorts of embarrassing fangirly things in the privacy of my bedroom, I think partially to blame is also the fact that it has become so commonplace to share literally everything and anything online with everyone. Whatever happened to fantasizing and squealing behind closed doors? To filming yourself lip-syncing and dancing in a mediocre way without showing it to everyone? Kierra is my age almost exactly and I'm honestly super shocked at the lack of boundary and self-awareness she and many others have online. Like, you're not being shamed for being horny, you're being called out because you're harrassing someone.
29:35 "they're allowed to change their mind later. Consent is something you're allowed to take back at any time" THANK YOU
"It's just a joke" almost always triggers an alarm for me. I love that you brought up boundaries! We have to respect others' boundaries just as we'd like our own to be respected
I honestly don’t think it would have been less worse if the manager or another player said something. Because people would have still eventually said “oh the wife must have said something because she feels insecure and he’s just trying to placate her!” Like wow you really cracked the case there Columbo.