LS rod bolts Torque without Angle Gauge
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- Опубліковано 26 бер 2018
- Showing how I verified the applied torque to achieve the 15# plus 85 degree tightening method.
Discussed the factory tightening procedure, clamping force, bolt fatigue and how it can affect the clamping force.
My results showed the bolts are torqued to 50 ftlb after following the factory procedure.
Sloppy Mechanics digital torque wrench indicates the final rod bolt torque to be between 51-53 ftlb.
It shows there is a wide variance of accuracy using degrees to final torque. You will get more consistent clamping by using a torque wrench especially when re-using a TTA fastener. - Авто та транспорт
35 years mech , you are exactly correct on all.
Really clear video. Good work.
Great vid with lots of helpful info, thanks a lot!
There’s a lot of information on the Sloppy Mechanics channel and website about torque specs on “used” bolts. The general consensus is new TTA bolts need to follow the factory procedure due to never being stretched before. JD
Dont listen to stupid people's comments you odviosly know what your doing i myself have a 4.8 silverado fbo cam and stall converter i wish i would have seen your videos a long time ago keep up the good work good luck with the build .
Oscar Longoria Thank you! I’ve been impressed with the stock 4.8, I can’t wait to see how it runs with an extra 100hp! 👍. Then work towards the Turbo install making around 7-10#. I’m truly building a daily driver, take the kid to school everyday. Pump gas naturally. 😉. Thanks again for the support I truly appreciate it! 👍👍👍
Thanks for the video. I'm a rookie rebuilding my LS re-using my main and rod bolts. I've been looking at a few videos trying to get a consensus on torque specs in lieu of using the TTA. All the videos seem to be in line with each other regarding the torque specs.
Used GM TTA main bolts are being torqued to 50# outer 60# inner with regularity. Those TTA gauges aren’t expensive if you want to use it. We’ve had good luck using the torque method, see my other videos on it. Thanks JD
Using GM's specs for a 2003 iron truck block, it does not say "Torque to Yield". As for procedure, they re-use the OEM bolts dry. Once removed, they follow the 2 step procedure for 15 lb. ft. then 75 degrees just to check bearing clearance using the plastic gauge method. Remove, inspect, remove the plastic, lube and assemble. The only bolts used on and iron block 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L from 2002 - 2004 to be NOT be reused, is the head bolts.
Over the years, I made a practice of using my SnapOn torque wrench who's torque range fell in the middle of the fasteners required range. One torque wrench is a beam type, sold by MAC, because it was the only one in inch pounds for pinion rotational force. That's the only time I used it. I sent the SnapOn 3 in for calibration every two years. At 7 stickers, they returned my 1/2" drive back, indicating they no longer made parts for it, without any info about high, low or dead-on. Just a $20 offer to purchase a new $330 version... of the same thing. Now if bolts are made right, say grade 8, is grade 8, the only time I think it would stretch or fail is if it's over torqued. I am no machinist, but if the rods big end is out of round because a tight bolt, then it's too tight or the rod / or rod design is faulty. A torque to yield bolt is something to keep clamping force on aluminum heads on an iron block, so you don't have to re-torque them every 30k miles to keep the head gasket tight. As for aluminum on aluminum, torque to yield is crap. I don't care what kind of secrete sauce, chicken lips or frozen buffalo farts they use to make them, a bolt, even with a built in washer is crap if you can't re-use them because they stretch? Sorry, I believe in torque and not angles. If thats true, did the main beam in the "Beam-Type" torque wrench bend or stretch? I say yes. So no longer accurate. Who tested it? When? How? Was it ever tested to be re-calibrated? No!
No, with my "Rant" over, I am not going to build a 1,000 "LS" type engines. Nor, anything over 450 horse ponies. Do what you want, but my mind is common sense, guided by experience. I don't care, because I don't get into a pissing fight. Not trying to clear a Buick 225 without getting it wet. NIASE Master Tech since 1978. I have talked with GM engineers in Troy, MI. Honestly, some I don't think some could change a flat tire. But they can tie a double Windsor knot, with soft hands.
Dean Kay Have fun and enjoy! Thanks for the feedback! JD
I have the same three dimple design rod bolt and have searched all over the Internet for information on what gen it is do you have any idea what those rod bolts are from?
jon doe This is all Gen 3, rod/bolts etc. it’s super easy to tell the difference between a Gen 3 and Gen 4 rod once you see them side by side.
Also, if your piston has a press pin without spring clips there’s a 95% chance it’s Gen 3.
Around 2004 GM had a crossover setup that had press pistons on the thicker Gen 4 rod, but it’s fairly rare.
2005+ Gen 4 will have full floating piston pins w/spring clip retainers.
Do an image search on Google, Gen 3 vs Gen 4 connecting Rods. 👍👍👍
Hi, I am rebuiltding my 1999 lm7 5.3 from Silverado, if will reuse my connecting rod bolts do you recomment me to go with 50 pounds of torque ? And if i will use new bolts go with 15punds and 85 degrees of torque or the 50 pounds directly ?
Warning, using the torque method is intended for used bolts only! New factory bolts should be tightened using the TTA method.
Big difference between a stretched bolt vs new.
Used rod bolt we use 50 ftlb in 3 equal steps; many people use 50-53 ftlb.
ARP rod bolts I've used have a given torque spec or stretch gauge number to go by. The way you tightened the rod bolt is the exact same way it's done on industrial applications.
Mike MacCracken Our machinist at Performance Machine says the only way to run ARP bolts without torquing and resizing the big end is to reduce the torque spec ARP recommends. Example : SBC 45-47# stock rod bolt torque,use this instead of the recommend with a drop of oil no ARP lube. Or roll the dice. 🤔
I’m going to torque my rod bolts in 3 steps to 50# and send it. 👍
Mike MacCracken I finally found an actual 3 step torque sequence for the Speedmaster LS Head studs. 😳
HeadFlowInc ill trust arp recommended torque and lube for their bolts, are you lost
I have a question what is the torque spec of a 4 gen rods. because I know that the 3rd gen takes 15 pounds first step and final step 75 degrees. I don't know if the 4th gen carries the same or 15 pounds and 85 degrees?
We always used 15 lb plus 85* for Gen 3 or Gen 4 rod bolts. Now we use the 3 step torque method on used bolts. On new non-stretched bolts I suggest using the 15 lb plus 85*. JD
Great video! Thanks for sharing your findings on the research you did. Gotta love those keyboard cowboys , opinions are just like a$$holes!!!
Malicor Thanks for the support! 👍👍👍
If I can add my oil drain back holes to my pistons today, I may be able to assemble the short block tonight! Thanks again I appreciate it! JD
Realize this is a year old video. Has anyone used an old connecting to pre-stretch all the ARP bolts, then install them on the set you plan on using? Or used, used ARP bolts? Only reaso I ask is, I just got a set of reconditioned Ls2/LS3 rods from a1racingparts, on eBay. They were were already touch honed, so maybe less distortion than, starting with a “used” set of rods.
badone07 We do not use the ARP recommended torque with their rod bolts unless they’re going to be honed. It’s better to use the factory torque on the ARP bolts to avoid distortion of the big end. JD
HeadFlowInc First, thanks for getting back to me. Much appreciated... I have a set of the 234-6301 & 134-6006. ARP recommends 40 ft-lbs (135-6006) & 45 ft-lbs (234-6301). However, from what I have read OEM bolts are torqued between 50-53 ft-lbs, which is obviously more. What torque spec are you using for the ARPs?
Can I reuse my old rod bolts? They're the original ones on my daily driver (KA24E).
No, I don’t know anything about a Nissan engine. In my experience foreign cars use TTY bolts and they’re single use only. JD
Not sure had that engine back in the days. If it was GM bolts I will say yes.
There is nothing wrong with putting the standard ARP rod bolts into stock LS rods without resizing them. So far the most I've measured them to be out of round is .0002" in the 30 or so sets I've checked. You can make them more out of round though just by torquing in too large of steps between the two bolts, such as you said in this video, tightening evenly creates the least distortion. As for reusing stock bolts they are ok with the factory 15lbs +85* or 50lb/ft which ever comes first. The early 97-01 LS rod bolts that didn't have ferrules should never be reused.
I'll add that I am only talking about the standard ARP 8740 grade rod bolt kit, part number 134-6006 for LS. The higher grade bolt kits would surely have a much greater effect on the rod bore distortion.
Ross Banner Thank you for sharing your experience! I know a ton of people have swapped to ARP and Other aftermarket rod bolts; sent it. As you mentioned, improper torque procedure could have caused many of the reported issues.
Thanks for sharing about the early rod bolts without the retaining Ferrell. 👍
Thanks again for your help! JD
OK, from an outsider POV.
1 Your only actually torquing when installing to the crank.? This isn't some pre-conditioning step?
2 So you don't just do a back n forth torquing. 15-30-45-Final?
3 If using ARP rod bolts. Go dry and stay on the low side of the spec?
Thx
MJ
mike johnson No precondition process, I was showing what the actual torque the bolt sees when you follow TTA.
All rod bolts need some lubricant, either engine oil or a moly lube like the ARP. As you know the moly lubes reduce the final torque.
If you upgrade to ARP bolts they have a torque spec.
I wanted to show the TTA method has to represent a final torque specification, otherwise it’s worthless and not repeatable.
Hey I just watched a partial on your other TTA video. I never heard/knew there was such a thing.? I have used standard bolts/screws/fasteners and then torqued to spec. Typically in a certain ascending level and a certain pattern.
So this was my confusion. Why,,,, would you reuse the bolts for such a critical step?
Thx
MJ
mike johnson Saving money on a cheap rebuild, is why people reuse the bolts, it's a common practice. Technically if you upgrade to stronger rod bolts you should have the big end of the rods honed but almost nobody does.
Woo-Wee. Just priced a set of 16. ~$100. So yeah I can see why you might want to reuse them. I haven't rebuild an engine in a LOOOOOONG time.
So on a factory ls2 or L76/l98 what are the rod bolt sequence torque setting in nm ???
How can I know how much torque I have to put on my 2013 dodge Grand Caravan rod bearing.
I'm trying to find it online for long time but I can't figure out 🥵
Nabel Alhadeethi I’m very sorry, unfortunately I have no experience with the Dodge engines. The best idea is to find a rebuild manual to verify the process. Good luck! JD
Let’s say I want to torque my rod bolts on my 5.3 LS 15ft-lb then 75 degrees, will a degree wheel on a torque wrench work and accurate?
Anything that measures angles or degrees of rotation will work. I’ve seen people use the compass on an iPhone before. 👍
Ok thanks. I have a digital chrafsman torque wrench and found out it has degree setting
Funny thing is my torque bar was not working properly. And I over tighten the bolts that the head started pulling itself in. I said fack it tight is tight. Made 695whp had no problem. Lol
If it fits it ships! Congratulations! JD
Do you mean 8mm stock bolts?
Peter Fraumeni Yes, OEM bolts.
Mine is 11mm
ABOUT 42-45 LB
50-53# is what I’ve found and compared to others results found on the Internet and UA-cam
Air line pressure ....
Kevin G This is a very random statement; I have to ask what is it you’re talking about?
Guessing is not accurate and yes this method is ultimately not accurate. Best to either get the correct torque wrench or whatever is needed to do the job correctly. This is not the way to follow, don't care who disagrees or not, facts.
Do you have an email where I can contact you?
jeffdubray @ Gmail .com
@@HeadFlowInc thanks Jeff, just shot you a quick message
A torque angle gauge is so cheap it is a no brainer not to have one. A must for an ls engine. Messing around with tape and markers and reference lines and stuff like this wastes more time then if you went to napa to pick one up for a few bucks.
TJS Welding and Fabrication I tried the $12.99 Torque angle gauge from Advance Auto, I wouldn’t use that junk on anything. I can’t express how inaccurate the cheap torque angle tool was, it would rotate the fastener 45+ degrees before the needle ever tried to move. 😳. If I find a deal on a quality Name brand torque angle gauge I’m buying it! 👍
The purpose of this video is to show the TTA fasteners do have a torque specification and to show if you are in a pinch or live in an area or Country where specialty tools aren’t easily available, it is possible to still do the job. 👍
HeadFlowInc i have an OTC one. Works great.
TJS Welding and Fabrication I’ll look up the OTC brand Thank you! 👍
Take all that bull shit and jest tighten them up .never have problem
I have known engineers, and a number of GM Engineers over the years. Believe me this torque to yield crap is an effort to create an issue that never existed before. Determinate torque specification and stick with it. If you want to follow these bulshit recommendations, stick with that. But there is no reason not to determine the actual torque spec of the bolt and use it. If you're going to manufacture substandard bolts to be used in the engine, tell people that before you start. The concept of Automotive Engineers constantly trying to reinvent the freaking wheel is really irritating.
If you want to be certain that you have properly standardized bolts to assemble your engine with. Shell out the money for the ARP bolts and stick with their torque specification because if you're going to be rebuilding your engine more than a couple of times, certainly do not want to have to be worried about the bolts coming apart.
Well said I agree! Thanks for watching and the feedback I appreciate it! JD
why waste your time with all of this.. buy the damn gauge and DO IT Right... whats wrong with you people...you want to build engines and do it cheap...those 2 dont go together
Eddy G First one to the finish line wins! 🤔
If you listen to all the information concerning the TTY fasteners ONCE. The TTY method does not apply the same clamp force after it’s been stretched. There fore, trying to follow a TTY method on a used bolt is simply a huge gamble, more so than identifying an actual torque specification that can be verified. Hopefully you’ve learned something new today on engine building techniques. JD
Your wrong, arp bolts are Not eggshaping the rods, that uneven wear is from detonation
Richard Harris wrong, the wxtra clamping force causes distortion on the big end. go back to playing with your goober
Richard Harris why you gotta be a fucking hater? Everyone has there own opinion and way of doing things. If you wanna use ur angle gauge use ur angle gauge but you don't gotta bitch people out with multiple comments about how they don't what they are talking about.
You just showed a torque to angle TOOL, its not that hard? Your talking way to slow and yes repeating yourself continually please go back and watch some of your videos, hard not to get bored to death
Richard Harris Nope, you’re wrong again, I showed a portion of an angle gauge used for setting driveline angles. NOT a Torque to Angle tool.
What’s your qualifications and experience building engines? I could easily “Mute” you and not blink an eye, but I’m curious where you learned to build engines? Do you have 40yrs experience like the owner of the machine shop?
Do you have 32 yrs experience like I have? Based on your last 3 comments I’m going to say your not very experienced.
Keep studying, get your hands dirty eventually you’ll know what you’re talking about. 👍