It's incredible that the two most knowledgeable league experts, that have not worked with league directly in years, still provide a better and more entertaining show with an unscripted zoom show than the proffesional employed league casters. Keep up the good work guys!
I think it all comes down to the personality and also experience. They are just so good at establishing narratives and exposing their own ideas, never afraid to speak their mind. As a hardcore league fan, I've always selfishly wished Monte to come back and Thorin to make an appearance in an official broadcast.
The mad thing is that most major league have insane content creation team (LEC, LCK, LPL) but each worlds, who is taking over ? That's right ! The production team of the worst major league broadcast: the LCS. Now the official broadcast is unfortunately really serious, bland and forgettable. And it's a shame because those people have talent, but it's untapped...
@@NT-ng6xy it’s mad because Thoorin was actually meant to cast/be on the desk for the LPL a few years back, before riot global for wind of it screwed him out of the gig. Would’ve been amazing to see
Those little 3min segments during TI10 were amazing. Iconic moments from games, background stories, tales from Dota's past. Crazy that the LoL broadcast has nothing of interest going on other than the games.
Crazy to me that they havent been bringing up anything about the rivalries. Perkz vs Damwon, Nuguri vs FPX, Perkz vs FPX, EDG vs T1, RNG vs FNC without Rekkles and Uzi, CoreJJ vs Gen.G. SO much to create hype with
@@GEM4sta How they always were the backbone for the orgs and how the orgs succeded even after both of them leaving, i think its quite interesting atleast!
I know what you mean...i saw a video posted on twitter of corejj and ruler before i remembered oh right this group has a world's winning botlane playing against each other again....
@@HappyroosterYT This ^. They need to make feature content about these match-ups and the history _prior_ to the actual match, so that people *actually tune in* to watch the casters talk about it. It's useless just having the casters talk about it during the match, if no one is interested in watching the match in the first place.
19:55 Imagine putting out a compilation of all the players saying that Cloud9 and Rogue have no chance right before the tiebreaker for 2nd in group A. This has a potential to be hype as fuck
This kind of useful insight Nelson provides into what’s going on with Chinese teams isn’t discussed on the English-speaking broadcast. The only thing I can imagine is that this is because the Reddit mob would think Lyric or whoever was providing that information was just stanning for Chinese teams. There would be hate threads about how the broadcast favored China and Chinese teams, all varieties of non-sequiturs included. But I wish there were people on broadcast discussing the issues FPX has always had, the fact that this EDG lineup is quite new - coaches included. This could even toss over to commentary about how DK’s head coach (Kkoma) and lineup are extremely experienced at international competitions, for many of the players dating back to 2019. Again, on an English-speaking broadcast, even if the broadcasters wanted to talk more about eastern teams (I’m thinking of Raz, Lyric, the LCK casters, and Emily, for example), it wouldn’t work, probably, not just because their audience may not show interest in those topics, but because their audience might actually pitch a toddler-fit that their broadcast isn’t western-centric enough, charges of “egregious bias” included.
So hype to watch this. Already love your guys takes on the lack of storyline coverage from Riots end. There's so many features you can do its crazy man I guess the ambition isn't there, what else could it be?
I have a slightly different take on why Bwipo did the tweetlonger. He started it off by saying that he hurted his girlfriend, and the procceeds to talk abour how great she is and how much she helped. The tone of the tweetlonger made me feel like she is going to ditch Bwipo anyways, but she put in the effort to support him while he was at worlds. So the tweetlonger feels ( to me ) like a poor attempt from Bwipo to not lose his girlfriend, and the way he figured to do so was talk up how good she is. Even though he indirectly dissed his entire team, it sounds to me like it was a byproduct of his desperate apology attempt.
I also feel that was the case and thats why you shouldnt write shit like that in twitlongers or you shouldnt write anything like that period. Like no kidding but if i was lena my vagina would dry up faster than water in sahara reading that crap and i have done some stupid shit in my teenage years myself.
THE BOYS DID IT. NA and EU 3rd seeds taking out the LPL 2nd seed! NA is battle tested on 70 ping. They drafted a little tankier and more cc at times. Also cared about stacking drakes which is huge regardless of what people say because it's denying enemy stats. Insane how C9 and MAD actually managed to win while drafting for extreme mobility to counter the full team fight comps of GENG/LNG and FPX. C9 and MAD were regarded as best team fighting team in NA/EU so I shouldn't be as surprised; but in quarters you need hard cc and at least 2 tanks per draft the later worlds tend to go historically. Heck Cait, Kog'Maw, Twitch, Jinx, Xayah are just waiting to be brought out for those full scaling front to back standard team fights we historically have gotten. This year could be lot more varied. Already 88 unique champs I think. Its basically "ardent meta" but also a bruiser top tower meta. Love how games can last 25-55 mins no problem.
I remember they called EDG iBoy as Fishman (cuz of his eyes), Ning as Lying(after he backstabbed his friend) and GodV as GoldV(whenever he did bad). They also nickname champions, for example Lucian is Obama.
Pretty sure they called Ning, "Naruto" and JKL, "Sasuke". Remember that from the LPL regular season IG v TES, aka "Great Ninja War" pre-match hype and memes
The broadcast also needs to add background to the players. Bjerg had an interview about how he was bullied and it brought everyone around him. Huanfeng had the article written by not Riot about how he grew up in poverty and his father sent him a tiny amount of money. These stories made everyone like these players and cheer for them, make them invested in the players.
the format was indeed grueling for the players for sure but wasnt that due to the schedule not having time since they moved it to iceland at the last moment and so forth?
This podcast is awesome, not only Do I learn about the history of esport. I also learn about history of the world LOL. Just a suggestion, perhaps during the off season. You guys can do a segment about 10-15 min on giving each iconic league player a nickname or new nickname. Eg faker is unkillable demon king (quite long for a nickname) EDIT:English
i meannn as a fan, its fun to over react during post game discussions..................dont think fans should get shit over that...not making any type of opinion and discussing it after seeing a game would be kinda boring i feel like....
"hm, looks like we rolled badly on our 9 x 30% Winrate, hope we roll better next round robin!" They literally want the "when NA loses I think to myself "no"" meme
i meannn as a viewer of Thorin, its fun to watch Thorin shit on fans for over reacting.................dont think Thorin should get shit over that.....not seeing Thorin make any kind of jokes about stupid fan takes would be kinda boring i feel like....
2:25:57 I mean, from the fans' perspective, what's wrong in that they want LEC to have as many quality teams as possbile. Of course, they want to see high level of gameplay and EU to be strong as a region overall, also in order to compete internationally and to have a chance for a title. For that you need a top talent to stay in Europe. Yes, for Carlos that may not be beneficial to sell good players to other European teams if his only goal was to win LEC. However he openly said that he wants G2 to win Worlds, so it should be obvious that he needs a strong opposition. If he would weaken other teams, G2 would face the same problem that all top teams from LCS always complain about, that they aren't pushed enough in the region, that's why it's hard for them to compete internationally. LEC as a whole has been facing the same problem for a very long time now, which is the constant dilution of top talent; yes, new rookies are brought in every year, but it's hard to expect them to fill the void after players like Perkz or Alphari. The region is getting weaker in that sense. That's how things look like for the average LEC fan.
Also, if they do not want to sell their players to top teams, and their players end up having to play 2 years on a short team, then surely there will be no gide players who will play for g2 as it could also happen to them? 🤔
Xiaohu's have a lot of nick names. e.g. 春之虎帝 Tiger Emperor of the Spring, as he always wins in spring and won LPL titles. (And 2 MSI) He's also referred to as 虎大将军 (Grand General Tiger) When XiaoLongBao was with them, they're the Dragon/Tiger Combo, which hold cultural and pop culture significance to East Asia as a while as Tiger are seen to be a ferocious match to the mythical Dragon. There's even the popular Chinese mange, "Dragon Tiger Gate" which can be use as reference. I'm surprise Nelson didn't bring any of it up.
Some potential nicknames, perkz “the puppeteer”, forgiven “the forbidden one”, Caps “the unpredictable meister”, The peak of mount Shys reference to TheShy and Shy.
Not sure if they forgot or just didn't bother to mention, but Faker pretty early on was given the nickname "Unkillable Demon King". Dunno if I'd say it's a great nickname but it's something.
re: "where is the content?!" @ ~18min - Riot probably did less content this year because someone said "why spend money creating content when we could make money selling the ad space between games?" The ads were obnoxious this year. Couldn't even escape it while watching the games with all of the redbull baron power play, mastercard mythic item purchases, cisco network plugs, etc.
TLDR: xmithie should be on the western GOAT list around 10th place. I'm much more of a lol community lurker than poster commenter, but i felt this needed to be said given it came up in the post show questions. xmithie is the best jungler to ever play in NA and has the experience and the titles to be on the list in a similar tier to Bjergsen. I understand others might discount his many victories as he wasn't the main player on his championship rosters for the most part, BUT He is the only NA player to make MSI finals twice and he did it on two enitrely different teams. And I think its fair to say he was the best player on the CLG 2016 roster which won spring LCS and came in second in groups at MSI (best showing of any western team in groups at msi) and won a best of 5 against Flash Wolves to make the finals. 2016 CLG roster Top: Darshan JG: Xmithie Mid: huhi Bot: stixxay Support: aphromoo
Really ? Perks has major consistency issues. For the last 4-6 seasons he started out really bad. Sure his playoff/worlds performances are amazing. But ... what comes before that ...
+ about the nickname segment, my nickname for Perkz based off the old 90s Croatian NBA star has always been "Drazen Perkovic" even back in S6 purely because it fit so well and looking from S6 Perkz to S11 Perkz, fucking hell he really did grow *right* into that nickname and become EUs GOAT and then go onto making a new standalone legacy in America, shits uncanny
2:26:38 Yeah, I haven't been paying attention to social media or anything, but if fans really think that way, that's stupid. I'm glad Nukeduck replaced Czekolad; he was just not good enough. The question is: what did he show in try-outs that made him seem ready for LEC, maybe we will see him in the future, but for the time being he seems like a very limited player. Oh, and I agree that Bean is not an LEC level player yet, at least to me he didn't look convincing enough. As far as I know he also wasn't the driving force for Fnatic Rising last split.
Tbh i havn't seen him play in fnc rising. But at least i had the impression in worlds that he could keep his own against players in worlds. Ofc that is with Hilly at his side. It all depends on how you want to use your adc in the team. I don't see him carrying at this point so i wouldn't use him as the main carry. Tbh i wouldn't get him for a team myself but if your in a bind he could be an option (if your a lower team)
I like groups being best of 1's. I love that anything can happen. That's what competition is. Then the teams need to do a series after that. It's a good system. I think you make good points though
@@liborsysel2234 At that point though if you follow this arguement to it's logical conclusion there will literally be no upsets ever. Say for example Riot got rid of Bo1's and inserted a losers bracket into Worlds... in this case one of the top 3 or so teams going into the event would win every single time. If you give the best teams in the World too many chances then they will win every single time. Just look at the UCL. Even though smaller teams can make runs, they will never win it because the format is not that punishing. Compare this to the NFL, which has single elimination, and upsets happen much more frequently. In short, you have a choice. Do you want the winner to be pre-determined as 1 of around 3 of the best teams every year, or do you want more upsets and shocks, but less clean gameplay. I prefer the latter but I can see why people prefer the former.
@@bertlife7142 I would prefer the best teams to always win...Also, upsets can STILL happen in bo3/5. bad day, bad mental from the better team etc. But as someone who wants to see the best always, I want the best teams at the top every time.
I enjoy Thorin content as much as the next guy, but honestly, Thorin and Monte's dedication to kiss Perkz's ass in every single video they do is genuinely admirable lmao. Not saying I completely disagree, but you really can't deny the bias.
If faker the eastern GOAT is unkillable demon king, then the clear name for PERKZ the western goat should be the indomitable spirit king. Two sides of the goat coin.
wait....didnt both of them write off all the na teams the last episode, and on the jungle show with dom... like both monte and thorin were like well na speedrun again... lol
I'm a Chinese, obviously Nelson only knows the nick names of players from two years ago. How could he say Viper doesn’t have a nick name? And no one in China calls Luka emperor Perkz nor king Perkz, we usually call him ‘a P’ or ‘PZI’
Mad looks worse in the round robin relative to their MSI run, meanwhile DK looks way more dominant right now than their MSI run. MAD always pulls off the unexpected though, so its always on the table.
Glad i'm not the only one that hates KD/A. It has nothing to do with the game and the music is really obnoxious computer generated crap that plays after every match
I'm so glad hearing Thorin call out that bullshit about Perks "11 million dollar ult/flash/etc.." There's a couple retired pros who were doing the same thing, it wasn't just casters. Because I'm supposed to believe doubleairport seriously played better with all the money he made.
Is it suspicious to anyone else that almost all the western teams played better week 2? Its almost like NA isn't that bad, and when they get just as much practice as asian teams, they win.
His “overreaction” you are speaking of is very interesting to me. What was an overreaction about how na played week 1 lmfao it was pathetic. Also looking ahead at the other matches for na after week 1 it didn’t look great but I’ll let u rewrite reality 😂.
@@thestoebz Well i think EUW are worst without G2. G2 was always the exception, they were a very good team that just happened to be from EUW. Na overperformed, but im not surprised out of the NA teams, C9 made it through
Watches quarterfinal where Humanoid gets gapped in lane and PVE the entire early game while taking all the resources. Thank god BDD isn't some EU trash.
My worse scenario for this worlds final would be Geng win c9 then beat the lpl Then Mad lion beat damwon for t1.. then lose to t1 And at Last faker get his sweet revenge for 2016 against geng then retired. Fk that.. don't let faker retired 🤣
@InsightOnEsports Narratives are pretty weak because Riot is using the LCS's production model and not LEC's model. Boring as fuck and full shitty commercials ('RedBull Baron Power Play etc.')
1:29:33 No, Monte, I disagree, they absolutely do GET IT completely...let's be real, the number of people like us who watch this show that actually watch world's looking for quality games and esports development is like 1/10th of the viewership MAYBE (probably lower) and that's only counting the west + KR without the millions over in CH... Riot doesn't care about World's as a tournament one bit, it's just marketing to them for their in-game content...if they spent all that advertising money and air time that would make people buy into the TEAMS THEMSELVES instead of the game Think about it, they want the world's to be as faceless as they can because they want the product to be the only focus of the viewers, everything they do regarding teams is just a minimalist effort so what its not blatantly obvious they don't care
The answer (9/10 of the viewers would prefer this format) is staring you in the face. Why add weird conspiracy theories when the simple answer explains everything?
@@Sleeptastic because that's literally it...there's no other reason for you to have a virtual concert and just assume that people who want to watch your competitive product also want to consume your merchandise as well... They don't even assume they just don't care, that's what you get and they know why they give you that KDA Live: 52 million views...the most viewed match of the game itself? 1/10th of that
Thoorin and Monte: "I can't believe we never get to see NA vs EU international Bo5's." NA and EU: *90% of the teams lose before they get to Bo5's* Thoorin and Monte: "Curse the format!!" I hate the format too but we don't get to see NA vs EU in Bo5's because NA and EU fucking suck compared to the Asian teams not because the format is bad.
You are sort of boxed in by Riot logic here. In a double elimination format like they have in TI, *the teams who place bottom in groups are seeded into the loser's bracket*. So you'd have a loser's bracket filled to the brim with EU and NA teams going at it in bo3's or bo5's. So yes. It's entirely because the format is bad.
@@theWebWizrd I think there are more problems with double elim than what is acknowledged. With a double elim I think that going into Worlds, there would be 3-4 max that could actually win it. Whereas in the current format a team like 2019 FPX or s2 Tapei Assassins can win, a double elim format would essentially make the top 3-4 teams locked in for semis. That's just my opinion though. The LPL playoffs are the example I would point to and say that while the quality of games is better than before, going into playoffs the top 3-4 teams are only ones who can win it, and I think that's kind of boring. Maybe the cleaner gameplay and more accurate results is preferable for you, but it's not a clear cut case like Thoorin and Monte make it out to be. There are more cons to double elim to like how the upper bracket finalists don't get a second chance. For me, I prefer formats where the upset can happen rather than formats that have the best or second best team winning 9/10 times, it's more exciting / interesting. Just my opinion though.
@@theWebWizrd My point in my earlier comment was that the format shoulnd't need to be changed because NA and EU can't preform to a top 8 level. Would you want to watch 2020 TSM vs 2020 RGE? Saying it's "entirely because the format is bad" just ignores there are other reasons we aren't seeing NA vs EU (with the main one being because they both aren't good enough).
@@bertlife7142 I agree. Double elimination is an excuse to see more alternative BO3/Bo5 match ups. The reality is the west want it because they believe their shit team would face a better chance in a BO series for some odd reason when their league runs a BO1 format and they suck. Asian teams would smash them even worse since Bo series is what they actually play in their regional leagues.
Monte: the difference is that Faker... can definitely play Leblanc also to clap back at Nelson's dig about Morgan leaving WE and coming to LCK and coming to worlds. Viper didn't win LCK goes to your region and Wins LPL
If I had to chose a game, I'd panic, say sueca and then call a friend who knows what they're doing to carry my ass If that's not allowed, then it'd be TicTac toe. I can't lose so I can't be killed
Azael is below mediocre, but honestly casters in general have been in freefall decline since Jatt left and kreepo was outed as a pedophile. I just think back to Deman and Joe "Please don't call me Joe Miller" Miller. Now I listen to Vedius telling me that Jensen put some gold "in his back pocket" 50,000x times
@@gilolaes4725 I mostly said that as an Edgy joke because it's a comment on his show, DOA + Monte is probably the best cast Korea ever had - the Eastern English casts are super cringe in general. But I would say basically every era lol. I mean, the big thing about MonteCristo is that he didn't fucking play the game, he was like a silver player that peaked plat 5. His knowledge was always based solely on what he's seen Koreans do by watching their games. Does it not rub you the wrong way that a guy is telling you which champ is favored in a matchup when I could hop in a game and whoop his ass in both sides of the matchup? Lol. I think this made his analysis of anything that didn't look like a Korean game pretty terrible, because he doesn't know about the game really, he knows about Korean pro games. I would gladly take Deficio/Krepo/Kobe/Jatt hell even Zirene's commentary because they can actually play the game and have played the game at a high level. I mean just consider that *Captain Flowers* is better at the game than a man who has the job of understanding how to play the game... It just doesn't sit well. In addition, his commentary was always super dry and he had a tendency of taking any excitement that was left in a game out of it. In his Niche market he was fine but as a mass market commentator he was pretty terrible which is why Riot didn't invite him to things.
No shit?? My American is showing I'm so sorry! I've only been an on and off listener of Duncan but since season 3, and I just mistakenly have always thought that accent is Scottish XD Y'all get 2 free American stereotypes on me!
the difference between jensen and perkzu is jsut, Perkz doesnt choke. Jensen has only one mode and thats called choking when it matters most. thsi year tiebreaker again.
He played great that game though. Also Jensen and Perkz have really different play styles so not sure how you can say that’s the only difference between the two of them. Also Jensen is the single most successful player on the international stage in the history of NA so not really much of a choker is he
@@ethangilworth7891 He literally was the reason they started falling behind in the tiebreaker. as far as I know its not a very good play to walki up mid without a minioin wave against a Zoe and MF and die. cause your whole team to then die aswell. like thats jsut bad in the most important moment. that was simply not clutch. What does playstyle matter if somebody is clutch or not? Jensen simply isnt clutch in the most important moments. otherwise he wouldnt have died and given up the lead of TL in this tiebreaker or he wouldnt have gotten absolutly stomped in the msi finals. you cant compare him to perkz, his worse in every aspect. and he doesnt even understand how to radle a team behind him together.
NA have edge against LPL because LPL doesn't play BO1 lol. But tbh judging on how dominant of DK is, if FPX didn't do so bad on second round and just need to win 1 game then C9 can't get out. (Also Rogue time beats NA tiebreaker lol)
I just want to see one year where Dade presents the Dade award to the deserving player.
It's incredible that the two most knowledgeable league experts, that have not worked with league directly in years, still provide a better and more entertaining show with an unscripted zoom show than the proffesional employed league casters. Keep up the good work guys!
Yeah this show has been shitting on every riot product for years
I think it all comes down to the personality and also experience. They are just so good at establishing narratives and exposing their own ideas, never afraid to speak their mind. As a hardcore league fan, I've always selfishly wished Monte to come back and Thorin to make an appearance in an official broadcast.
So true
The mad thing is that most major league have insane content creation team (LEC, LCK, LPL) but each worlds, who is taking over ? That's right ! The production team of the worst major league broadcast: the LCS. Now the official broadcast is unfortunately really serious, bland and forgettable. And it's a shame because those people have talent, but it's untapped...
@@NT-ng6xy it’s mad because Thoorin was actually meant to cast/be on the desk for the LPL a few years back, before riot global for wind of it screwed him out of the gig. Would’ve been amazing to see
Those little 3min segments during TI10 were amazing. Iconic moments from games, background stories, tales from Dota's past. Crazy that the LoL broadcast has nothing of interest going on other than the games.
M su
Well they gotta slide in their ad breaks for that revenue man.
Crazy to me that they havent been bringing up anything about the rivalries. Perkz vs Damwon, Nuguri vs FPX, Perkz vs FPX, EDG vs T1, RNG vs FNC without Rekkles and Uzi, CoreJJ vs Gen.G. SO much to create hype with
RNG vs FNC without Rekkles and Uzi... Yeah, what a hype story line, you should go work for Riot!
@@GEM4sta How they always were the backbone for the orgs and how the orgs succeded even after both of them leaving, i think its quite interesting atleast!
I know what you mean...i saw a video posted on twitter of corejj and ruler before i remembered oh right this group has a world's winning botlane playing against each other again....
The casters talk about these things all the time
@@HappyroosterYT This ^. They need to make feature content about these match-ups and the history _prior_ to the actual match, so that people *actually tune in* to watch the casters talk about it. It's useless just having the casters talk about it during the match, if no one is interested in watching the match in the first place.
I am sort of shocked they didn't mention "the unkillable demon king" when talking about nicknames. Thats definitely the best one in League.
it aint a single player but Rush Hour (DL/Aphro on CLG) was elite
Na that one is cringe af
It was the korean casters and viewers that gave faker the unkillable demon king, which is a really cringe nickname and tradition.
@@fbiagent6456 i believe it was actually a Chinese player who first said it, or maybe another korean.
@@fbiagent6456 That started when the mid laner from OMG, COOL, referred to Faker as "the unkillable demon king" (in Chinese) during 2013 Worlds.
19:55 Imagine putting out a compilation of all the players saying that Cloud9 and Rogue have no chance right before the tiebreaker for 2nd in group A. This has a potential to be hype as fuck
This kind of useful insight Nelson provides into what’s going on with Chinese teams isn’t discussed on the English-speaking broadcast.
The only thing I can imagine is that this is because the Reddit mob would think Lyric or whoever was providing that information was just stanning for Chinese teams. There would be hate threads about how the broadcast favored China and Chinese teams, all varieties of non-sequiturs included.
But I wish there were people on broadcast discussing the issues FPX has always had, the fact that this EDG lineup is quite new - coaches included. This could even toss over to commentary about how DK’s head coach (Kkoma) and lineup are extremely experienced at international competitions, for many of the players dating back to 2019.
Again, on an English-speaking broadcast, even if the broadcasters wanted to talk more about eastern teams (I’m thinking of Raz, Lyric, the LCK casters, and Emily, for example), it wouldn’t work, probably, not just because their audience may not show interest in those topics, but because their audience might actually pitch a toddler-fit that their broadcast isn’t western-centric enough, charges of “egregious bias” included.
So hype to watch this. Already love your guys takes on the lack of storyline coverage from Riots end. There's so many features you can do its crazy man I guess the ambition isn't there, what else could it be?
I have a slightly different take on why Bwipo did the tweetlonger. He started it off by saying that he hurted his girlfriend, and the procceeds to talk abour how great she is and how much she helped. The tone of the tweetlonger made me feel like she is going to ditch Bwipo anyways, but she put in the effort to support him while he was at worlds.
So the tweetlonger feels ( to me ) like a poor attempt from Bwipo to not lose his girlfriend, and the way he figured to do so was talk up how good she is.
Even though he indirectly dissed his entire team, it sounds to me like it was a byproduct of his desperate apology attempt.
he cheated on her?
I also feel that was the case and thats why you shouldnt write shit like that in twitlongers or you shouldnt write anything like that period. Like no kidding but if i was lena my vagina would dry up faster than water in sahara reading that crap and i have done some stupid shit in my teenage years myself.
THE BOYS DID IT. NA and EU 3rd seeds taking out the LPL 2nd seed! NA is battle tested on 70 ping. They drafted a little tankier and more cc at times. Also cared about stacking drakes which is huge regardless of what people say because it's denying enemy stats. Insane how C9 and MAD actually managed to win while drafting for extreme mobility to counter the full team fight comps of GENG/LNG and FPX. C9 and MAD were regarded as best team fighting team in NA/EU so I shouldn't be as surprised; but in quarters you need hard cc and at least 2 tanks per draft the later worlds tend to go historically. Heck Cait, Kog'Maw, Twitch, Jinx, Xayah are just waiting to be brought out for those full scaling front to back standard team fights we historically have gotten. This year could be lot more varied. Already 88 unique champs I think. Its basically "ardent meta" but also a bruiser top tower meta. Love how games can last 25-55 mins no problem.
I remember they called EDG iBoy as Fishman (cuz of his eyes), Ning as Lying(after he backstabbed his friend) and GodV as GoldV(whenever he did bad). They also nickname champions, for example Lucian is Obama.
I had been waiting for Thorin's take on the Bwiplonger, absolute classic!
Same. I like Bwipo but that was a yikes angle
What’s sad is Riot USED to do feature pieces but they just stopped for some reason it makes no damn sense
Pretty sure they called Ning, "Naruto" and JKL, "Sasuke". Remember that from the LPL regular season IG v TES, aka "Great Ninja War" pre-match hype and memes
They also called Doublelift Sasuke because of what happened with his brother.
The broadcast also needs to add background to the players. Bjerg had an interview about how he was bullied and it brought everyone around him. Huanfeng had the article written by not Riot about how he grew up in poverty and his father sent him a tiny amount of money. These stories made everyone like these players and cheer for them, make them invested in the players.
I have been waiting for a video like this. Great content! Thank you both!
I will say that games like counterstrike and Starcraft do have different maps even if they dont patch stuff in game the maps effect the game.
Thoorin on fire in this episode. Banger episode.
I love the fact that Thoorin has to explain simple finance to fans, because of a bad meme
I think another good time to test the format is MSI. Please riot just see how double elimination works
Please no. MSI is already garbage enough. Just retire that format and make it some world cup format.
the format was indeed grueling for the players for sure but wasnt that due to the schedule not having time since they moved it to iceland at the last moment and so forth?
14:00 Not just different team mates BUT. TWO DIFFERENT ROLES
This podcast is awesome, not only Do I learn about the history of esport. I also learn about history of the world LOL. Just a suggestion, perhaps during the off season. You guys can do a segment about 10-15 min on giving each iconic league player a nickname or new nickname. Eg faker is unkillable demon king (quite long for a nickname)
EDIT:English
the Huk reference from Thorin! i appreciated that one big man!
i meannn as a fan, its fun to over react during post game discussions..................dont think fans should get shit over that...not making any type of opinion and discussing it after seeing a game would be kinda boring i feel like....
what are you on about, only thorin gets to shit talk everyone
"hm, looks like we rolled badly on our 9 x 30% Winrate, hope we roll better next round robin!"
They literally want the "when NA loses I think to myself "no"" meme
i meannn as a viewer of Thorin, its fun to watch Thorin shit on fans for over reacting.................dont think Thorin should get shit over that.....not seeing Thorin make any kind of jokes about stupid fan takes would be kinda boring i feel like....
@@brandonwalker5011 thorin wasnt the one who did it
That bit about the player nicknames had me in tears, thorin took no prisoners hahahha
2:25:57 I mean, from the fans' perspective, what's wrong in that they want LEC to have as many quality teams as possbile. Of course, they want to see high level of gameplay and EU to be strong as a region overall, also in order to compete internationally and to have a chance for a title. For that you need a top talent to stay in Europe. Yes, for Carlos that may not be beneficial to sell good players to other European teams if his only goal was to win LEC. However he openly said that he wants G2 to win Worlds, so it should be obvious that he needs a strong opposition. If he would weaken other teams, G2 would face the same problem that all top teams from LCS always complain about, that they aren't pushed enough in the region, that's why it's hard for them to compete internationally. LEC as a whole has been facing the same problem for a very long time now, which is the constant dilution of top talent; yes, new rookies are brought in every year, but it's hard to expect them to fill the void after players like Perkz or Alphari. The region is getting weaker in that sense.
That's how things look like for the average LEC fan.
Also, if they do not want to sell their players to top teams, and their players end up having to play 2 years on a short team, then surely there will be no gide players who will play for g2 as it could also happen to them? 🤔
Yeah Thorin was completely strawmanning all the fans here.
@@maeschder He does that often. Its because he reads the worst reddit takes and then thinks that its the average fan.
The last cool nickname Korea gave out was dubbing Hyli as "The Mad Professor"
Xiaohu's have a lot of nick names. e.g. 春之虎帝
Tiger Emperor of the Spring, as he always wins in spring and won LPL titles. (And 2 MSI)
He's also referred to as 虎大将军 (Grand General Tiger)
When XiaoLongBao was with them, they're the Dragon/Tiger Combo, which hold cultural and pop culture significance to East Asia as a while as Tiger are seen to be a ferocious match to the mythical Dragon. There's even the popular Chinese mange, "Dragon Tiger Gate" which can be use as reference.
I'm surprise Nelson didn't bring any of it up.
Some potential nicknames, perkz “the puppeteer”, forgiven “the forbidden one”, Caps “the unpredictable meister”, The peak of mount Shys reference to TheShy and Shy.
after watching worlds this past weekend, looks like monte was right on the money.
STANDARDIZE THE FORMAT!!!
Not sure if they forgot or just didn't bother to mention, but Faker pretty early on was given the nickname "Unkillable Demon King". Dunno if I'd say it's a great nickname but it's something.
re: "where is the content?!" @ ~18min - Riot probably did less content this year because someone said "why spend money creating content when we could make money selling the ad space between games?" The ads were obnoxious this year. Couldn't even escape it while watching the games with all of the redbull baron power play, mastercard mythic item purchases, cisco network plugs, etc.
What did they even get Nelson on for if hes just gonna be silent the majority of the time
They didnt rly let him speak
And whenever he talks he's just mumbling the whole time
Singapore English is cringe, and no one can compete with monte n thorins broadcasting style with great mics.
All I am saying is that we were this close to Montes dream QF. Rogue vs Korean Rogue (aka GEN.G).
TLDR: xmithie should be on the western GOAT list around 10th place.
I'm much more of a lol community lurker than poster commenter, but i felt this needed to be said given it came up in the post show questions.
xmithie is the best jungler to ever play in NA and has the experience and the titles to be on the list in a similar tier to Bjergsen.
I understand others might discount his many victories as he wasn't the main player on his championship rosters for the most part,
BUT
He is the only NA player to make MSI finals twice and he did it on two enitrely different teams.
And I think its fair to say he was the best player on the CLG 2016 roster which won spring LCS and came in second in groups at MSI (best showing of any western team in groups at msi) and won a best of 5 against Flash Wolves to make the finals.
2016 CLG roster
Top: Darshan
JG: Xmithie
Mid: huhi
Bot: stixxay
Support: aphromoo
Jensen is fire. Perkz is the western GOAT. at this point it's no debate. i fell in love with the man when he carried Hjarnan and Whadid.
Really ? Perks has major consistency issues.
For the last 4-6 seasons he started out really bad. Sure his playoff/worlds performances are amazing. But ... what comes before that ...
@@gerbo8018 winning when it counts? Case closed
@@gerbo8018 inconsistent but wins when it counts. I think that’s better. He’s the most decorated western player in history.
@@jazeroliversy673 I tought this was about a goat not about the most prizes.
@@gerbo8018 idk, who’d you put above him
The double elimination bracket, dont they use it in valorant?!?
Riots too busy cancelling a Valorant On-LAN tournament while fucking over Aussies stranded in the States to make any feature content :>
+ about the nickname segment, my nickname for Perkz based off the old 90s Croatian NBA star has always been "Drazen Perkovic" even back in S6 purely because it fit so well
and looking from S6 Perkz to S11 Perkz, fucking hell he really did grow *right* into that nickname and become EUs GOAT and then go onto making a new standalone legacy in America, shits uncanny
2:26:38 Yeah, I haven't been paying attention to social media or anything, but if fans really think that way, that's stupid. I'm glad Nukeduck replaced Czekolad; he was just not good enough. The question is: what did he show in try-outs that made him seem ready for LEC, maybe we will see him in the future, but for the time being he seems like a very limited player.
Oh, and I agree that Bean is not an LEC level player yet, at least to me he didn't look convincing enough. As far as I know he also wasn't the driving force for Fnatic Rising last split.
Tbh i havn't seen him play in fnc rising. But at least i had the impression in worlds that he could keep his own against players in worlds. Ofc that is with Hilly at his side.
It all depends on how you want to use your adc in the team. I don't see him carrying at this point so i wouldn't use him as the main carry.
Tbh i wouldn't get him for a team myself but if your in a bind he could be an option (if your a lower team)
Coach of XL said that the main issue with czecholad was that he didn't listen or play well with his team
I like groups being best of 1's. I love that anything can happen. That's what competition is. Then the teams need to do a series after that. It's a good system. I think you make good points though
Bo1 is awfull. Yeah weak teams could upset, but then u might get weaker team into quaters...
@@liborsysel2234 At that point though if you follow this arguement to it's logical conclusion there will literally be no upsets ever. Say for example Riot got rid of Bo1's and inserted a losers bracket into Worlds... in this case one of the top 3 or so teams going into the event would win every single time. If you give the best teams in the World too many chances then they will win every single time.
Just look at the UCL. Even though smaller teams can make runs, they will never win it because the format is not that punishing. Compare this to the NFL, which has single elimination, and upsets happen much more frequently.
In short, you have a choice. Do you want the winner to be pre-determined as 1 of around 3 of the best teams every year, or do you want more upsets and shocks, but less clean gameplay.
I prefer the latter but I can see why people prefer the former.
@@bertlife7142 I would prefer the best teams to always win...Also, upsets can STILL happen in bo3/5. bad day, bad mental from the better team etc. But as someone who wants to see the best always, I want the best teams at the top every time.
@@smaldor maybe in the fiesta called dota but not in league, a clear better team will always win.
cap larssen was a crazy playmaker and clutched out very dire situations for rge, 2021 worlds larssen was a breathtaking player
I enjoy Thorin content as much as the next guy, but honestly, Thorin and Monte's dedication to kiss Perkz's ass in every single video they do is genuinely admirable lmao.
Not saying I completely disagree, but you really can't deny the bias.
If faker the eastern GOAT is unkillable demon king, then the clear name for PERKZ the western goat should be the indomitable spirit king. Two sides of the goat coin.
tbf murica is looking even more devided than europe rn...
Tbf it's arguably more diverse... Our problems are mostly race relations, EU countries are mostly just white
wait....didnt both of them write off all the na teams the last episode, and on the jungle show with dom... like both monte and thorin were like well na speedrun again... lol
I'm a Chinese, obviously Nelson only knows the nick names of players from two years ago. How could he say Viper doesn’t have a nick name? And no one in China calls Luka emperor Perkz nor king Perkz, we usually call him ‘a P’ or ‘PZI’
Cant believe the metal gear slander. Stop the Cap. That series is the goat.
As for nicknames we have jizuke as the Italian stallion.
For bjergsen, we have a name for his teammates 4 wards
Should have asked what the Chinese nickname for Doublelift was, surely they had one for him after so long.
The score eSports holy war let's go!!!!!!!
DK are the favorites, but, MAD got them to 5 games at msi, its not impossible
Mad looks worse in the round robin relative to their MSI run, meanwhile DK looks way more dominant right now than their MSI run. MAD always pulls off the unexpected though, so its always on the table.
Nice take. 3-0. Now you will learn why it's idiotic to take an MSI format with an entirely different patch and trying to extrapolate to worlds.
Good rant about defending Perkz. I feel like everyone is just jelous of money or something to be honest.
Isn't Tian playing through a wrist injury?
Best part is 1:59:14, wait for it
Glad i'm not the only one that hates KD/A. It has nothing to do with the game and the music is really obnoxious computer generated crap that plays after every match
I'm so glad hearing Thorin call out that bullshit about Perks "11 million dollar ult/flash/etc.." There's a couple retired pros who were doing the same thing, it wasn't just casters. Because I'm supposed to believe doubleairport seriously played better with all the money he made.
Is it suspicious to anyone else that almost all the western teams played better week 2? Its almost like NA isn't that bad, and when they get just as much practice as asian teams, they win.
Funny hearing Montecristo talk about overreacting when he did just that with NA
I feel like Monte has so many head-scratcher takes as of late, some of them are ridiculous.
His “overreaction” you are speaking of is very interesting to me. What was an overreaction about how na played week 1 lmfao it was pathetic. Also looking ahead at the other matches for na after week 1 it didn’t look great but I’ll let u rewrite reality 😂.
@@mnns9634 yikes you okay man? Na did just as well if not better than EU. So does EUW suck?
@@thestoebz Well i think EUW are worst without G2. G2 was always the exception, they were a very good team that just happened to be from EUW. Na overperformed, but im not surprised out of the NA teams, C9 made it through
@@johnkiin219 sure. G2 looked shitty most of the year. Just like na. I'm not an NA fan just being honest. Na did better at Worlds this year
Opium war description was pretty spot on as well, just took a Chinese history class.
Don't Chinese teams have their home stadiums? Can't they run Worlds at one of those so we can have a format that isn't ass backwards?
Lol, I love Phreak. He did actually talk shit to dunk on swordart & TSM.
Phreak is the most boring and cringeworthy caster of all the riot employees.
@@JamesIdentity LEC cast like to have a word with you.
Very clever leroy Jenkins reference
Did thorin just completely misrepresent the idea of an investment?
But Monte.. Perkz has a Nickname... He was called Babayaga in Europe.
How on earth is Sneaky not on Thorin's top western GOAT list? Guy made worlds every year of his career and was a world class adc.
Agreed, if Doublelift is that high up surely Sneaky should be close behind especially if we are comparing overall success.
@@10kColdNights lllkl
because sneaky is not a man
Thoorin roasting Phreak LUL
He likes him in all honesty it was a loving roast. He's our asshole.
world champion ning actually predicted today c9 and mad (NA 3./EU 1. seed) to win over geng and damwon (korean 1. and 2. seed). i think he is smart:)
Oh wow. MAD over DWG is a bold take.
Tell me how good was Ning prediction. Ning was on the dot right PepeLaugh
Nelson: "BDD is not humaniod"
Thankfully not, Humanoid doesn't afk in mid for 30mins and get flame horizoned...
Watches quarterfinal where Humanoid gets gapped in lane and PVE the entire early game while taking all the resources. Thank god BDD isn't some EU trash.
you're right humanoid is even worse than bdd
Enjoyed the EP! The guest Nilson was hard to listen to. He doesn't provide much insight and seems unable to articulate his thoughts.. no hate.
The "Emperor" in CN is not a good one.we call knight "Emperor K"， we call Ning"Emperor shoes". because they are bad
My worse scenario for this worlds final would be
Geng win c9 then beat the lpl
Then Mad lion beat damwon for t1.. then lose to t1
And at Last faker get his sweet revenge for 2016 against geng then retired.
Fk that.. don't let faker retired 🤣
Perkz has Uma Jan
@InsightOnEsports Narratives are pretty weak because Riot is using the LCS's production model and not LEC's model. Boring as fuck and full shitty commercials ('RedBull Baron Power Play etc.')
1:29:33 No, Monte, I disagree, they absolutely do GET IT completely...let's be real, the number of people like us who watch this show that actually watch world's looking for quality games and esports development is like 1/10th of the viewership MAYBE (probably lower) and that's only counting the west + KR without the millions over in CH...
Riot doesn't care about World's as a tournament one bit, it's just marketing to them for their in-game content...if they spent all that advertising money and air time that would make people buy into the TEAMS THEMSELVES instead of the game
Think about it, they want the world's to be as faceless as they can because they want the product to be the only focus of the viewers, everything they do regarding teams is just a minimalist effort so what its not blatantly obvious they don't care
The answer (9/10 of the viewers would prefer this format) is staring you in the face. Why add weird conspiracy theories when the simple answer explains everything?
@@Sleeptastic because that's literally it...there's no other reason for you to have a virtual concert and just assume that people who want to watch your competitive product also want to consume your merchandise as well...
They don't even assume they just don't care, that's what you get and they know why they give you that
KDA Live: 52 million views...the most viewed match of the game itself? 1/10th of that
Best podcast in esports
kinda sad how hard nelson had to be carried by thorin and monte. he rly isnt a talkshow guy
Thoorin and Monte: "I can't believe we never get to see NA vs EU international Bo5's."
NA and EU: *90% of the teams lose before they get to Bo5's*
Thoorin and Monte: "Curse the format!!"
I hate the format too but we don't get to see NA vs EU in Bo5's because NA and EU fucking suck compared to the Asian teams not because the format is bad.
You are sort of boxed in by Riot logic here. In a double elimination format like they have in TI, *the teams who place bottom in groups are seeded into the loser's bracket*. So you'd have a loser's bracket filled to the brim with EU and NA teams going at it in bo3's or bo5's.
So yes. It's entirely because the format is bad.
@@theWebWizrd I think there are more problems with double elim than what is acknowledged.
With a double elim I think that going into Worlds, there would be 3-4 max that could actually win it. Whereas in the current format a team like 2019 FPX or s2 Tapei Assassins can win, a double elim format would essentially make the top 3-4 teams locked in for semis.
That's just my opinion though. The LPL playoffs are the example I would point to and say that while the quality of games is better than before, going into playoffs the top 3-4 teams are only ones who can win it, and I think that's kind of boring.
Maybe the cleaner gameplay and more accurate results is preferable for you, but it's not a clear cut case like Thoorin and Monte make it out to be. There are more cons to double elim to like how the upper bracket finalists don't get a second chance.
For me, I prefer formats where the upset can happen rather than formats that have the best or second best team winning 9/10 times, it's more exciting / interesting. Just my opinion though.
@@theWebWizrd
My point in my earlier comment was that the format shoulnd't need to be changed because NA and EU can't preform to a top 8 level.
Would you want to watch 2020 TSM vs 2020 RGE? Saying it's "entirely because the format is bad" just ignores there are other reasons we aren't seeing NA vs EU (with the main one being because they both aren't good enough).
@@bertlife7142 I agree. Double elimination is an excuse to see more alternative BO3/Bo5 match ups. The reality is the west want it because they believe their shit team would face a better chance in a BO series for some odd reason when their league runs a BO1 format and they suck. Asian teams would smash them even worse since Bo series is what they actually play in their regional leagues.
“Oof” - Nelson
Btw, wether or not you believe Jesus was the son of God. There is no doubt even among atheists that Jesus existed and was crucified.
pre-game dragon order is needed
Monte: the difference is that Faker... can definitely play Leblanc
also to clap back at Nelson's dig about Morgan leaving WE and coming to LCK and coming to worlds. Viper didn't win LCK goes to your region and Wins LPL
Nelson is salty. Guy will go down as one of the worst coaches to get paid.
I could balance the game. I would make 2 small patches per year. small ones. there is a middle ground.
If C9 make Finals, Im buying a C9 jersey.
I prefer Uma Jan
Personally I hope monte grows out his facial hair forever
this guest is pretty quiet. jitters maybe. Thoorin having to coax words out of him
If I had to chose a game, I'd panic, say sueca and then call a friend who knows what they're doing to carry my ass
If that's not allowed, then it'd be TicTac toe. I can't lose so I can't be killed
Ok. So, Doinb won the dade award
Hol up thorin Zeke is worth the money, at least on my fantasy team....
2:01:20 KING OF SNEAKERS
But you clowns said Khan is absolute garbage smurfing in dogshit LCK means litterally nothing. While EU toplaners are Morgan level at best
wow Nelson was so boring on this.
Azael is a mediocre caster.
Azael is below mediocre, but honestly casters in general have been in freefall decline since Jatt left and kreepo was outed as a pedophile.
I just think back to Deman and Joe "Please don't call me Joe Miller" Miller. Now I listen to Vedius telling me that Jensen put some gold "in his back pocket" 50,000x times
The only good caster loss was Monte Cristo, that guy's incredibly boring and has almost no game knowledge for a color caster
@@GEM4sta What era of his casting are you basing that on?
@@GEM4sta yeah I miss Joe and Deman
@@gilolaes4725 I mostly said that as an Edgy joke because it's a comment on his show, DOA + Monte is probably the best cast Korea ever had - the Eastern English casts are super cringe in general.
But I would say basically every era lol. I mean, the big thing about MonteCristo is that he didn't fucking play the game, he was like a silver player that peaked plat 5. His knowledge was always based solely on what he's seen Koreans do by watching their games. Does it not rub you the wrong way that a guy is telling you which champ is favored in a matchup when I could hop in a game and whoop his ass in both sides of the matchup? Lol. I think this made his analysis of anything that didn't look like a Korean game pretty terrible, because he doesn't know about the game really, he knows about Korean pro games.
I would gladly take Deficio/Krepo/Kobe/Jatt hell even Zirene's commentary because they can actually play the game and have played the game at a high level. I mean just consider that *Captain Flowers* is better at the game than a man who has the job of understanding how to play the game... It just doesn't sit well.
In addition, his commentary was always super dry and he had a tendency of taking any excitement that was left in a game out of it.
In his Niche market he was fine but as a mass market commentator he was pretty terrible which is why Riot didn't invite him to things.
When Thoorin speaks his Scottish accident rises steadily
Scottish?!
Hes from northern england friend
No shit?? My American is showing I'm so sorry! I've only been an on and off listener of Duncan but since season 3, and I just mistakenly have always thought that accent is Scottish XD Y'all get 2 free American stereotypes on me!
the difference between jensen and perkzu is jsut, Perkz doesnt choke. Jensen has only one mode and thats called choking when it matters most. thsi year tiebreaker again.
He played great that game though. Also Jensen and Perkz have really different play styles so not sure how you can say that’s the only difference between the two of them. Also Jensen is the single most successful player on the international stage in the history of NA so not really much of a choker is he
@@ethangilworth7891 He literally was the reason they started falling behind in the tiebreaker. as far as I know its not a very good play to walki up mid without a minioin wave against a Zoe and MF and die. cause your whole team to then die aswell. like thats jsut bad in the most important moment. that was simply not clutch.
What does playstyle matter if somebody is clutch or not? Jensen simply isnt clutch in the most important moments. otherwise he wouldnt have died and given up the lead of TL in this tiebreaker or he wouldnt have gotten absolutly stomped in the msi finals.
you cant compare him to perkz, his worse in every aspect. and he doesnt even understand how to radle a team behind him together.
@@ethangilworth7891 Week 1 Jensen Irelia?
not gonna lie montecristo looking hella cute
My kid in 2040: daddy tell me the story of how NA won worlds
Me: well it all started when they killed that gorilla
NA have edge against LPL because LPL doesn't play BO1 lol. But tbh judging on how dominant of DK is, if FPX didn't do so bad on second round and just need to win 1 game then C9 can't get out. (Also Rogue time beats NA tiebreaker lol)