Brazing With and Without Flowing Nitrogen + Using Silver Solder Rings
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- Опубліковано 22 лис 2016
- Tim Bagnall demonstrates brazing with and without nitrogen flowing with 5 different rod/solder types. He also demonstrates the use of solder rings as well as the Hilmor swage tool.
When Tim brazes without flowing nitrogen, the inside of the copper tube gets covered in black scale. That scale can flake up and clog up your filter-driers, discharge line mufflers, and other components that connect to your copper piping. When he opens the piping up, the copper is weak and corroded.
However, when Tim brazes WITH nitrogen, the copper tube remains black scale-free, regardless of solder type. Tim uses the Harris 0, Sil-Fos 15, Blockade, Blockade FC, and Safety-Silv 56 FC solder on his joints while flowing with nitrogen. (Remember, most of the time, flux-coated rods are for dissimilar metals.)
When using solder rings WITHOUT flowing nitrogen, Tim starts off by using the Hilmor swage tool. He then uses the Sil-Fos solder rings. Some scale developed inside the pumping without nitrogen. When Tim uses solder rings WITH nitrogen, no scale forms on the inside of the piping. However, exceptionally hot tubing can also contribute to flake formation.
Tim also shows us his port setup.
A final word of caution: solder rings may slip and fall down into the joint if they get too hot.
Read all the tech tips, take the quizzes, and find our handy calculators at www.hvacrschool.com/.
Bryan, thanks for creating HVAC school. I'm looking forward to future content.
Neil Comparetto thanks Neil, I appreciate the kind words
I've been a tech for over 27 years, never an installer, however, I have done many changeouts and repairs. Most problems I have seen is ash in the lines, resulting in clogged filters and acid burnouts. I have always used Sil-floss 15% and NITRO...ALWAYS. I have never had to back to a job that I did, ever! Except for clean and check, of course! This is a great video I wish the younger installers and techs would watch.
I have come up on many jobs from other contractors and there wasn't a nitro bottle in sight and they were burning sticks. I questioned them and they said NITRO is just for pressure testing....morons.. Nitro is cheap, use it!
I don't have a flow meter like Tim. I use the old finger method and if I can hear it flowing, it's good. Might use a bit more nitro, but I don't care.
Never saw a video from HVAC school before tonight. Watched the one about R22 being "illegal".
Led to the next video I watched.
I rarely (actually never, first time)comment on youtube videos but I thought you were very educated on the subject as a young man(trust me, I am much older) and to find a younger man who cares about his trade and does it right is quite rare, in my opinion.
Carry the torch my young friend!
nice comments ,,,,i am 66 years old retired now for a long time ,,,,techs will do whatever they can get away with , the old saying i heard a lot is "been doing it like this for years " even with my neandertall school buddys LOL ,,,,,,i was a cert welder for over 30 years experience in the field before i went to school for HVAC ,,,,beleive me i heard it all ,,,,just do whats right and just and honest i beleive is good . merry christmas ,,,,
in mexico r22 is used all day long i hear ! only in the us the ozone is bad lol ok today is july 30th 2021 just for the record i am adding to my comment , like way way after i wrote it ,,,it was actually a tech servicing my neighbors unit ! we where saying at how crazy the prices are getting ,,,on r22,,wow now i am 67 3 months 68 is around the corner ,,,,,stay safe guys dont get hurt , i had a bad injury myself lifting things i should not have been lifting i am told i will have chronic pain for the rest of my life ,,,,just saying get some help use your heads please ,,,,pain does hurt like hell ,,,,,peace/ love to all people
@@MrGarcon98 The ozone layer protects the earth, all of it. As it is damaged or removed, countries nearer the equator will suffer sooner. Places like Mexico. Keep messing around, don’t care for the environment that keeps you alive, see what it gets you, haha. It’s funny when people act against their own interests because of ignorance...funny or sad
@@TSPhotoAtlanta yes it happens every day and not just wih HVAC either ,,,just saying ,,,no one is getting out of here alive LOL
👍
Bryan: Loved watching this guy braze.. THIS is how you learn, practice, practice, practice. He’s definitely going to have knee problems in a few years if he keeps this up.
have been listening and re-listening all of the podcasts (even found a way to slow down the audio) instead of talk radio during drive time. Appreciate those and now connecting more of the dots being able to visualize. Good stuff, looking forward to more.
Just found this channel and very happy with the content. Excellent series of video's that will have a direct impact on my daily service duties. Thank you!
I'll be damned. This is one of those things that I've been told by almost everyone I've worked with that I should forget from school. Everyone told me it doesn't make a difference. I always thought it was to prevent the brazing material from seeping into the actual line. I never considered it was because of the scale buildup. It makes so much sense now. Thank you for sharing this as I will now be insisting that brazing be done properly regardless of what the "experienced techs" say...
Yes. Would you work on your mothers system that way? Nope I didn't think so. Lol
Its only good for medical uses. With water you can flush it out and for hvac you just use the vac pump to suck all that out. Run your own business and pay for the Nitrogen out of your pocket and you will see why nobody cares
🤣🤣
Thank you Using nitrogen when you brazing will save you from lots of issues special from clogging txv
And to think, the helper was about to start brazing the joints on our new A/C system while his boss wasn't there, and no nitrogen in sight! Thank goodness I caught him before he started.
Our projects have always required using certified brazers and a nitrogen purge (for medical gas installation), I had no idea how dirty the copper got without the nitrogen.
Thanks for the video.
Hi Damon, could you tell contact for silver solders rings? I´m just start a medical pipes installation.
I am glad I found hvac school . I am learning at lot . Thank you
I feel like I really fit into this channel. Really explains some of the things that I often find in the field. Thx 👍
Thank you a thousand times HVAC school. its a very educational video. May God Bless you.
A lot of people don’t realize that the copper oxide formed from not purging while brazing gets into the compressor oil and raises its electrical conductivity. When this conductive oil coats the terminal block inside the compressor, power can then track to ground and cause a terminal to blow out of the pot. You can identify a problem brewing by using a megohmmeter
Great video! I started using the press tool by Milwaukee and it makes my job much easier.
Thank you for the video, very informative and practical advice for brazing. I liked how Tim used the white paper, than tapped on it with the copper pipe after finishing brazing, it shows more emphasis why purging is important. Don't be lazy go get the nitrogen regulator and flow control.
That was fun and I'm not even an ac repairman! Thanks Tim!
I don't understand how anyone can dislike this video very informative excellent content appreciate the lessons keep up the good work
Nitrogen charged brazing is a scam. Just a way to run up the price. And then there's the silver solder being interchanged with sil-fos (15) which is a completely different rod. And let's not forget about lighting a torch with a lighter. So.. probably teaching the wrong way to do stuff.
Nice job Tim!
Thank you Tim!
Wow . what a difference.
Thank you for the video
Very nice demo!
excellent I see a lot of guy's not using nitrogen and they are called back!!!!!!
Great video 👍
I myself and many other colleges have brazed without nitrogen. I will never again.
excellent video, thanks
very good job it is very informative thanks.
I would always use nitro when soldering because this is the way I was taught at TAFE here in Australia. I had a supervisor, during the course of my employment, scold me one time for bleeding nitro through and I stood up to him and told him that it is very dodgy not to and the carbon ash will contaminate the system and cause blockages at the filter drier. He was an asshole. I've never had a compressor fail as a result because all my work was clean.
This is an excellent video.
Lol I just got in the field after 2 year Hvac degree, 88% on all offered Nate exams, have 300 hours of useful UA-cam hours. Nobody at the job uses nitrogen I couldn’t believe it. They want the systems to fk up I think.
Thank you for sharing this knowledge. excellent video!
very good tecnique
good video thank you for making videos
Thanks tim
Good knowledge
Nice job and video
Thanks!
Nice 1st-gen Neon.
Very good thanks 🙏🏼
I used the rings ccx with the captain hook. It worked well.
Bryan, great content. You just got another subscriber. I work on commercial Refrigeration systems.
good contents man
Another great video
Could someone go into detail and explain if you can leave a schraeder valve out on equalizer
Or do you have to make the last weld w/o nitrogen??
thank you
Helpful tip if you're brazing without nitrogen, DO NOT cool joints afterwards with water or a wet rag. Always allow the joints to naturally cool down. Quickly reducing the temperature of the copper pipe causes every bit of that oxidation to flake off inside, therefore furthering the contamination of the refrigerant. Alot more! But regardless, when not using nitrogen, contamination is inevitable, and possible restrictions are very likely at some point in time. And you better hope you remembered to sweat in the filter/drier Haha.
Friends don't let friends braze without an inert purge.
Nice video. I have a job that has miles of ACR tubing brazed without Nitrogen. Now compressors and valves are failing is there a way to remove /clean up the oxide from the copper? Perhaps some fluid than be circulated then flushed out?
Nice video Verry educational. Can someone tell me where to get that connection piece for the nitrogen hose? And, is it always recommanded to use solder rings? Even for smaller diameters, 1/4" or so..?
Wow what a difference flowing nitrogen makes. I always understood the concept....but until you see it...
This is exactly why i braze with nitrogen. I do this for the customer. Im sure they wouldnt want me coming back for a clogged expansion valve next season.
I do a lot of work on chillers in nyc and we required to use nitrogen no matter what and in case of burned compressor we change all the pipes before installing new one ☝️
Its crazing on how its so crucial to flow nitrogen in the system. What's the name off that tool.
pipe sitting around in bucket how much stuff was in it from laying around
Thanks
This id being done on a short piece of copper thast wide open on both ends. Now would there be any difference it it was a 3-4 foot copper tubing closed loop (other than the spot thats being brazed) that has bends and elbows and filter driers and a compressor and a metering device etc.?
sweating with stay bright is a superior connection
This was excellent! One misleading part in the demo: silver soldering should be done with borax flux and below 840F which will create no scaling. Propane will work on small tubing, MAP gas is plenty of heat for most work, air-acetylene is pretty risky on small-medium pipe, and oxy-acetylene is going to create scale unless you're a wizard (or using nitrogen)!
Giblet535 gotta flow nitrogen!
Quick question from a refrigeration guy -- when brazing a cap tube (to the output of a filter-drier) while flowing nitrogen, the small opening of the cap tube makes the flowing nitrogen exit through the joint and makes a clean braze very difficult; is there a tip for how to do that kind of braze while minimizing pinholes?
Can we get more videos about this?
A lot of ppl don’t use nitro due to: 1- being lazy to connect nitro bottle 2- wanting to complete the job faster 3-being ignorant
Hi new to HVAC. Question so when brazing with a nitro purge i first attach the nitro from suction side then open liquid line and then flow the nitro from one side to the other while brazing? Just trying to make sure I understood..Thanks great videos keep up loading.
Yes
How much nitrogen pressure l will put on gauge miter when brezing.
Very good information, good video, what nitrogen is preccion used and what element used to cool the bronze pipe
greeting cordoba argentina
soldering vs brazing
Anyone have any large scale VRF experience? I have always been taught to use Nitro while brazing for this reason, but the guy (older/wiser) I work with believes the nitro can be simply left to push 3-5cfh at a given starting point (via brazed service port/pigtail) and still be effective down the line maybe 100ft down. Is this true?
I know what it feels like running a light draft of nitro through a short run of pipe, but after a few elbows and 50+ feet it really doesn't feel like any air is moving (especially if it's been "Y"or ref-net'd). The only way i've seen it be effective at long distances is to up the pressure at the regulator.
Is 3-5cfh okay when you're brazing a joint that's rounded a coil and you're 50,60,80,100+ feet down the line? Not saying he's wrong, but i'm only questioning so I can become better at what I do.
So you just hoot nitrogen into the pipe and let it vent out from any opening?
What are the silver solder copper rings called? Can't seem to find them online.
??? When pulling a vacume, even your filter drier wouldn't catch or condense the flacking with the vacume??
Does any of the soot build up come out after you pressurize the system before evacuation??
Tyler Bentzin no
What school do you teach at and how can someone sign up to go?
success for "HVAC School"
Is it possible to purge without a flow meter? Or is it just hit and miss if its too much or not enough?
Cj C as long as we have been brazing med gas and refrigerant lines the American welding Society tells us we need to trickle 3 to 5 cubic through the lines. The reason why they are rather specific and the importance of using a flow meter is that The difference between 5 ft.³ per hour versus 10 or 15 psi you’re trying to negotiate on your manifold set or nitrogen regulator results in pinhole leaks and gaps in your fitting due to the nitrogen flow working against the capillary flow of your silver. It does not require a lot of pressure to displace the air and or oxygen in the line.
Hold up. I though rapidly cooling the joint right after brazing is a no no as it could weaken the joint? Or am I mistaken on that?
Is it also better to use a scotch pad instead of sandpaper when cleaning the joint before a braze? I was reading that in a welding pamphlet that sandpaper leaves grit on the joint, so it's better to use a scotch pad. What's your take on this practice?
NSNOfm78 I prefer sand cloth. No grit left behind and one 6 inch piece will last a week
Anything scrubbing the copper clean is going to leave residue doesn't matter what it is just wipe it off before fitting.
will you still have as much carbon when brazing a closed system. not much oxygen?
Dave Wilson yes.
So if I just sawzall my joints after no purge I'm good right? No 95/5 and stay bite #8? Awww man. All them tools in that garage and no m18 or m12 band saw? Good video!
Old school, no safety glasses, not talkin shit I'm right there with ya. Not saying it's good but I do catch myself and take the walk to hunt down a pair.
On the saws-all particularly bro. We love ya!
I’m a welder and have lots of argon could I use that instead of nitrogen
Yes, done it and it fulfills the inert gas principle. It costs more. The valves and fittings all the same.
I wonder how argon would fair.
what model torch are you using?
I'm a believer! Wish more contractor owners/employers would insist their techs take the time to flow nitrogen.
That a dodge neon in the back??
Your comments seem to be totally C Y A , the guy did us a favor,he did a great job of simply showing proper working skills . No more comments.
Could a do it yourselfer use his MiG gas instead?
UA-cam This "Brazing with CO2 as the inert gas" It might help with your answer.
For refrigerator also need same
Why wouldn’t he use clean copper when not purging nitrogen?
I also flow nitrogen when I use zoom lock
Wait what?
Please mention to your sound editor that audio is very low.
Great content, suggest safety glasses and gloves while brazing...
If you cap both ends of pipe when brazing without nitrogen you get very little oxidisation as the small amount of oxygen in the pipe gets used up and no more can enter.
Often times that will create pressure in the pipe which can can cause difficulty keeping silver in the joint
I just use mapp gas and staybright doesn’t get hot enough to build any carbon but I’m not installing refers just Residential AC’s
Solder rings, yup, found my new solder.
The sound level on this video was so low, had it turned up all of the way, but could barely hear it.
Sound was also out of sync, but the low levels mattered.
Funny that happened with the fancy mic and all!
Wow, I'm sold. Just sucks having to go through so much more nitrogen
I want to braze with nitro as often as possible, however get in such a rush to where I only use it for pressure testing. Iv'e now been using Zoomlock a lot now, however still need to braze in a drier or TXV. gotta purge with nitrogen. my refrigerator never has the issues that other units have. I guess that because that was work done right.
Could Argon have done the same as Nitrogen? They are both non-flammable gasses.
yes we use argon as we have it in the shop , it cost more ,,But hey ,,,, just an inert gas to sheld ,,
Yes Both are dry inert gases
We braze all the time without nitrogen. That’s what the filter is for.
Wait how is it that I and everyone I've ever seen never uses nitrogen this way. Huh???
Flow nitrogen tip wet your finger nail hold over the other where nitrogen flow your should feel it very little
braze like me you ain't need nitrogen.
13 years no acid burnout yet.
Or clogged filter drier.
Kinda wondering why I ever carried that heavy nitrogen tank to braze.
It will improve your utube channel if your volume make it loud.
If you’ve brazed an open pipe without nitro then looked inside, you then fully understand the need to flow nitro
Why does the last braze never seal. I always get pin holes in the last braze, so what ill do is make my last braze on the liquid line before the filter drier with the nitro off. Figured the drier would get any crumbs plus you dont need much heat for a liquid line
and yes, i flow through the high side and terminate out of the suction pressure port so i do have an outlet
@@chrisscinto889 Back off on your flow rate of nitrogen to 1-2 cf/m. This will subsequently lower the static pressure in the piping, particularly on the last joint you do, and eliminate "blow outs" that cause the pinholes
Being in this trade for 7 years, I realized one thing. Get the job done. If the txv gets jammed with a few crumbs of oxidation 8 years later, even 2, that's job security and now I have a 1200 txv job that will pay my bills for another month. Do you see where I'm going with this?
@Chris Scinto yep, I see where you’re going with this. It’s the same place that car mechanics go when they charge someone for an engine rebuild when they simply needed a set of spark plugs. It’s a place called Shadyville
These comments are hilarious. It's like everyone's in grade 2
First I thought cooling the pipe right after is not correct and second you should never use a lighter to ignite that torch. just my thoughts
Wait a second...... Different variables between the 2 tests.
Scientific method 101