Cutting Low End On The Sides: Why??
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In this video producer, mix and mastering engineer David Gnozzi talks about the practice of cutting lows on the sides in mixing and mastering
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Think about a full orchestra. All of those instruments are playing their full range of frequencies and when it’s done right, it sounds completely AMAZING. A lot of the blend happens in writing the parts, how the instruments are arranged, what they’re all playing and when. When you hear stems from famously mixed songs, they don’t sound like they’ve been filtered into a small frequency range. They sound balanced and full. It’s a finesse game, not Tetris.
Yep!
PERFERCT!
Orchestral instruments are designed to work together. The arrangement is also designed that way. The same can be said with most 20th century rock and roll: drums,bass, guitar and vocals. Contemporary music contains lots of synthesized and sampled sounds that don't conform to the expectations you'd have with standardized instruments.
I almost made this mistake on my recent project when I forgot that I had 808 on stereo because I listen to some of these youtube producers, but I learned my lesson after some time of struggling. Thanks
100% agree!!!!! exception.... Cutting vinyl (and it still doesn't necessarily need to be to drastic if you know what you are doing)... The presence of low end In the sides is often part of a BIG SOUND!.... to my ears.
To my ears loud mix is shit and annoying so keep the dynamics and the low end fat instead of having it loud.We listen to a music first of all.
The analyzer is much appreciated. Really helps to see AND hear exactly what you are talking about. I made the low cut mistake when I first started producing years ago. It never gave me a good mix. Sure, I could mix louder but it was a very unsatisfying sound.
I'm not sure why so many people have the idea these days that bass of all things is not important anymore.
It's very tempting to use cut-&-paste mixing techniques, because it does make things a lot easier but I can say from experience, a natural sounding mix is always more satisfying in the long run. Unless you have mad skill or amazing luck in your instrument choices, it takes a lot of effort to get that natural sound. I think one of the most surprisingly satisfying things I've learned over the past few years was instrument choice. I used to get lucky a lot but now I more actively think about instruments before I even record anything. A sign that your channel is a good influence on people, even if they don't take your classes.
You my friend are are learning the art of composition. When a piece is properly composed and recorded, it practically mixes itself. I’ve been a working engineer since before David was born. I learn from him every week.
Spectrum analyzers don’t help you HEAR anything. No one listening to a recording is using their eyes and watching a computer monitor (or if they are they aren’t focused on the music). And neither are you when you are pretending to mix music. Music is meant to be HEARD and FELT.
I’m so glad I’m not some Ding dong trying to learn music and audio mixing on UA-cam. But good luck to all. The truly gifted will find a way through this mess
Best on the Tube. I think since 808 culture has taken over many mix engineers are very tunnel vision when it comes to mixing. It’s become less musical and more technical. You do an awesome job of keeping things in perspective and injecting life back into mixing. Thanks.
Indeed. I've noticed a lot of overly technical thinking in the music world in general. Paint by numbers music production.
it's because talking technical bullshit is easy, only people who know the real stuff can question the suggestion which other inexperienced producers/mixers will simply believe becoz it sounds 'technically right' on the surface level.
Even i don't believe whatever David says just like that, blindly. I trust him because I've found truth in what he says.
second this
They’ve been talking cutting lows since waaaaay back in the days, don’t act like this is something new that just started in the last 10 plus yrs
@@BR_READDY225 Yeah, the only thing that's new is people cutting from 200 down-ward to 'make space for the bass,' which is just kind of silly. But most mixing boards have a built in highpass for a reason. Removing very deep sub rumble is just an efficient thing to do.
Love this, we live in an era where we're so lucky to have mid side separation and we tend to abuse it like adding extra sides info or cutting when no needed. We're so lucky to have lush vst reverbs and people tend to cut sides below around 300hz if not 400...
mid side is a beutiful thing but has to be used more like the cheery on top of the cake
This was really good David. Thank you very much. Examples made everything much clear.
Great video, as always. You really know how to not only explain these concepts in a simple but nuanced way but also you choose good topics, issues, and questions that are going to be useful and how to frame thinking about them. Thanks, man.
My monitors only really start (+/- 2dB) at 50 Hz, yet I am hearing very much here. To me that sounds like more than just the sub 35Hz information, even if we add the little slope that cuts some of the frequencies up to 60 Hz or whatever it is. So I'm confused by that demonstration. However I don't cut the lows on the sides by default anyway - and if I do, I usually prefer to do it on specific instruments. When I do it on a whole mix, it usually is because the mix has issues and the kick actually gets washy because of a bass or 808 that's loud with tons of side-info. However I LOVE using mid/side eqs, hell, mid/side in general.. so I'll watch that other video next.
Mid/Side feels like a problem solver or even a creative tool at first glance, but ultimately it is highly unnecessary in my honest opinion. Once you've sort of improved on your mixing journey, you'll really start to understand the term K.I.S.S. It's really true and when you've mixed something well, everything will fall into the right context and place without all the crazy mid/side moves. This is speaking even from a production/sound design point of view.
Really, quickly becoming one of my favourite UA-camrs. This info is absolutely priceless. Thank you. Love your passion about this.
I liked this one before I even watched it... I wasn't wrong. Best production advice on yt rn, thanks heartily
Fantastic content
Glad I found this channel. You sound legit.
Ooooooo I love the way this felt coming out of my monitors.. Warm and thick!
You're taking about doing or not doing a mid side cut on the whole mix..not about trimming w high pass or low shelf individual instruments? I would assume a lot of the tunes you went through had trimming done to some degree on individual tracks or group busses while mixing. That's why the low energy on sides isn't as loud in final mix as center.
correct
Little question: if i use a low CUT instead of a low shelf to cut the lows of my individual sounds ? Does that causes phasing? Just wanted to clarify
a.k.a use your ears
Agree with you here. It's the predominant opinion to cut lows on the sides completely, but it makes for boring, sterile mixes.
Thanks for explaining so well. I used to cut a lot lows because a lot resources tell you that, but since quite a time i began to experiment with the lows and noticed that there is so much musical power that I can not cut out any more:)
Good for you. I stopped to cut, when I compare my mixes to professional productions. I noticed that in low freq. are so many very useful information.
Hey, David, we have already heard when not to use mid/side filters/EQ, can, you please, explain, the cases, when you would use it?
Mid side master processing is a very difficult and advanced techniques, done with small gentle cuts and boosts. This is done to enhance the stereo image. However, again you have to know exactly what you're doing or you'll just create phase problems.
La hostia tio!! excelente video.
Thank you David! Best on YT!
thanks, good advice. I have been cutting those low sides for a while now, time to stop that.
ah ah great choice of songs ! 90's neo metal . Thanks
I wish I didn't have to figure this out on my own a few years back... so many people putting out bad advice like they know what they're talking about. Btw, that ISOL8 plugin has taught me so much through using it to do tests like the one in this video... highly recommended.
Perfect Circle 🤘🏻
Wow I needed this! Best content
Another great video, thank you David!
All that low end just about blew my headphones off! Great stuff as usual! You don’t have to use a plug-in just because it’s on your list…😉🤘🏻
A mix should have 1 pair of balls - the MID and the SIDE low end! #amen
3.08 I did check your other video but there's nothing there... so why do we hear higher frequencies when we low-pass an entire song?
love your vids bro ... no bs at all ... eye opening
Sometimes you NEED those EDGE'S! I've tried cutting too much, only to realize "this song felt completely different before
Best advise.
Nice vid mate also your hair is next level lol gj
Excelente información, gracias 👌🏻
Great vid!
they definitely do have lowend on the sides, BUT im really confused, mainly cause on my headphones i hear much higher frequencies, from like 100Hz all the way to the highmids! not sure if Pro-Q's soloing is trustworthy.
I was always taught to cut lows on sides, period for club music as they are all mono systems.
by cutting the sides you get wierd phaseshifts in the bass frequencies as well, i think it always helps to control the low end oft the sides to taste, but cutting causes too big phase shifts, also in the stereo field. i find it better to use bells or low shelves. but yeah listen to your ears might be the answer
Well if you do cut the bass on the sides, you want to use a linear phase EQ. Unless you like how the stereo image shifts using minimum phase.
@@kelainefes and that would introduce pre or post ringing which is worse than a phaseshift
@@fernandomanqueo8683 pre ringing is inaudible in that application. Try and listen for yourself.
And the phase shift in the lows of the side channel will affect the stereo image severely.
What if my mix is a muddy mess without mid side eq? My mixes were very boomy on the side especially with ear buds making it very ear fatiguing to listen to and mid side eq fixed it and now my mixes are way clearer. 80’s Synthwave btw
Whatever works. I give people knowledge, I never say "absolutely never do this!" but more "be aware of the potential issues, and know what to listen for". That's it.
Amazing video as usual, this should be a sticky
Thanks 👍🏾
So what about shelf filters? Maybe we don't need cut off everything below or above but some cut or boost by 2-3db can make wonders instead just throw off all everything below particular freq?
Shelves are generally better, as in they should be the first choice, if it's enough then good. Yet, filters are not the devil, but the point here is why would you need to unless it's s mix, you're mastering for a client, that has issues
What if you are making club music, which will likely be played in mono?
What about it? If you play in mono the side info is gone anyway.
deep topic
Not really
Have you ever tried Nugen Audio's Monofilter?
It's great for bringing more focus to the low end.
I love stereoizer and stereoplacer from Nugen. You shouldn't have to do anything to "mono" things unless you're dealing with a badly designed sample. If so, I prefer Lepwig or basslane
@@mixbustv Thanks for responding and for the recommendations.
I wouldn't use it to sum the low end to full mono, just lessening the width of the low end as a stylistic choice sometimes, for individual tracks too.
Top video 💪🏿💪🏿👌🏾👌🏾
Thank you, you just confirmed my recent mixing and mastering experience where I brought up the all the lows and even some low-mid in the sides to make it sound fuller and balanced.
Tuning the kick drum and bass instrument in the mix is how I make enough "space" for each and hear/feel them enough in the mix. Some saturation or exciter helps.
Good stuff. Any technique done as a default is typically a bad idea.
The only reason for me to cut lows on the sides when mastering is to "fix" phase issues that the mixing engineer didn't. Yeah, I know, I shouldn't be the one doing it but not every mixing engineer or producer wants to fix their stuff, and in some cases they just can't.
When you do that then you get comb filtering. Arent u?
@@johnnyraphaell What are you talking about?
@@heavymetalmixer91
When you have phase problems meaning a phase shift because of stereo recordings (a/b style), some haas- wideners in the lower registers, you have a new problem named comb filtering.
I judt mean you can't just fix a problem of phase issues with taking away the sides. You are creating a new one.
Isnt that true?
@@johnnyraphaell That's when you make an EQ or timing change in one side but not the other.
What I meant by "removing phase issues" is removing low-end rumble that constantly changes between both sides, but given the filter is applied to both sides there isn't a comb filter.
Basically, if there's no rumble, there's no low-end phase issues going on, even though this means making the mix sound smaller.
@@heavymetalmixer91 ah maybe you dont mean "phasing issues". I think thats panning- modudulation issue. More a level thing than a phase thing.
I understand now what u mean. 👍🏻
yooo is that lamp thing behind him synced to his voice
i often run a hi pass filter on the side of my mix/master bus at 20hz 6db slope. do you have an opinion on this? thanks
Yeah, the video is my opinion
Hi man! You are my master.
Lemme tell you a little story.
It was like 10 years ago or so when I've watched D. Guetta saying he's making everything below 175Hz in Mono in his tracks, so the low end is more consistent.
It's not like i respect him alot, but let's say he was already where I wanted to be - making radio topping music and cooperating with the best vocalists out there.
So I thought he knows what he's doing.
I'm mainly in EDM with hard hitting kicks and bass. Eversince I've watched Guetta's tip I was putting "bx_Hybrid V2" >175Hz Mono on master track on every project by default. So you gotta tell me David, that my "whole life was a lie"? It was actually making my music sounds shit? What about kick & bass? Should I mono i.e. my bass below 200hz or not? There's still so many myths.
Keep up the amazing work.
Respect brother
In the end mixing and mastering is also a matter of taste. I think what David is proposing fundamentally is that in the end you have to use your ears and take decisions, instead of following dogmatic instructions like "cut the low on the sides". Sometimes you want that side rumble to be there, like for example if there´s a section where you decide to put stereo reverb/modulation on bass (oh yeah another taboo thing for newcomers). You can also play with where and where you will substract low-side information. Many variables, but in the end remember you want to finish it someday and deliver the nicest "snapshot/picture" (according to your ears/taste) of the music you receive or produce, so others may enjoy it.
If you're pressing to vinyl and you have too much sub on the sides the record will skip. So bass heavy music that goes to vinyl mono the subs. Guetta would have been doing that a long time ago so probably stuck with him. Seems high to me, I generally hear under 100.
"How to neuter your mix in one click!" is more like it. xD
I've been seeing those cut the lows from the sides videos come up lately. And was wondering about it.... Is that just someone people have adopted who aren't low cutting enough of their other instrumentation (besides bass and kick) enough In the lows to avoid a muddy mix? You can get plenty of 3d and depth with subtle non destructive tweaks. And a tiny bit of mid -side processing in mixing can go a really long way.
Mostly comes from the fact home mixers just can't hear low end because they have small monitors. So they don't hear any difference. And then part of it is because samples are meant to impress when heard in solo so they're all full and full bandwidth so they do need cuts, which would be normal procedure for a mix engineer but many just drop em in the project and then they end up with 20 sounds that have low end that shouldn't be there
Isn’t controlling sub on the sides necessary for vinyl mastering and improve mono compatibility ?
No, it has nothing to do with mono compatibility. Too much bass in general (which includes the sides) will make the needle jump, but it will also SOUND like you have too much bass.
qhats the tune at 11:25?
ua-cam.com/video/kQ1MO9GerCY/v-deo.htmlsi=p8nz103dkirLcTAx
Good info. Are your thoughts the same for ozone stereo imager monoing the sub or plugin alliance mono maker feature?
Yes, it's no different, they don't have a special processing is literally just that. I actually blame PA for putting that on every plugin they make and marketing it as essential so every kid started using it because they said so.
but at the end of the day, do you personally hear side information in sub area?( 100 below
Yes. And 100 is not even sub btw
@@mixbustv maybe 60 below?
More likely to be called sub for sure and yes, I do hear it, you hear it too, but most important you feel it. Sub content is vibration, you could be deaf and still "hear it"
Can anyone tell me what kind of desk this is?
Sidechain.
Hi david and thank you for your effort on cutting the bull 💩 Is it normal to hear my left monitor only (mostly) when you demo the low-end of the sides? It's weird and nauseating 🤢
Not normal
There's probably something wrong with your right speaker. I hear bass on both sides.
@@NoQualmsTheArtist Phase issues in the room maybe? If i move my head slightly to the right i can hear both monitors and if I move too much, I only hear the right. It screws with my head
@@lauriseppala4646 yeah definitely sounds like you need to treat your room. Buy a Primacoustics London kit and Sonarworks. This'll do wonders.
@@NoQualmsTheArtist 'i have allready treated my room mostly. Does soarworks correct phase issues too?
This video adds to the confusion as in the main it says the opposite to everyone side video I've watched to date. Surely nothing is set in stone and it's down to what you hear in the blend of the mix or see on the spectrum analyser? Every mix is different and is treated as so. There is not one size fits all in mixing. As long as you're not over zero db and in clipping then anything -6db peak should be ok even as close as -0.30db your still not clipping. I use mid side to cut a small area and fix a problem. Using a thinner Q setting. Really it's to clean up a muddy mix. For example boosting various instruments say at 1k with a high Q leaves the mix muddy in the middle as the lower frequencies overlap. So if I boost at 1k using mid EQ I then cut the same frequency using side this stops a muddy overlap of the lower frequencies in the sound. Mid side allows us to boost and cut frequencies at the same time. Gets rid of mud. What you do on the side and subs and lows especially is I listen to the frequencies I can hear and blend and mix those but the lows you can't hear but can see in the spectrum these are the ones taking up the headroom and because you can't hear them they make no difference to the mix except give you less db to work with. I feel they should be removed.
First of all I have to thank you because you inspired me to do a video on WHY people like you work with this much bad information and confusion (obviously not your fault), but that's gonna be a video, in the meantime I feel like anwering here so maybe you understand a few things: one, you can't mix what you can't hear. Your monitoring system is most likely beyond subpar as you literally say you're cutting something you can't hear. If it is on par, then you lack the proper (ear) traning to make mixing decisions. Yes every mix is different but I promise you there are RULES that apply to everything because it's physics and about 100 years of trial and error in the field that taught mixing engineers from all eras a handful of rules that we KNOW work universally. Actually more than rules we can call them best practices because everyone one is entitled or have the right to put out absolutely horrible mixes and call it cool.
Lastly, you lack either vocabulary or basic knoledge and you really sound like someone who went on a literally watched all the most "popular' videos on youtube. 1K is not mud. 1K is midrange. You cut the sides at 1K what's gonna happen is you're gonna lose energy, your mix is gonna sound narrower, you're gonna lose intelligibility and so one. That of course, unless you have too much, which is arguably a bigger problem.
The fact that you say "make no difference in the mix" talking about low freqs is frightening.
Mastering for vinyl is the only thing that might "help" with the low end side work......
@12:58 that's what she said
I use midside eq on individual low end channels. If you do that sparingly (and a monofier above appr 80hrz, depending on the mix) you’ll never have to use it on a whole track. Imo that’s what will eventually do more harm than good on your mix. So, I assume that has also been taken care of in the tracks you used as an example..
my 4 dollars headphones are vibrating
You're not "cutting it from the sides", you're pushing it to the middle. Nothing gets lost. It simply becomes more balanced, in most cases. I do cut lows from the side channel on my master bus by default, and I will continue to do so, as it has been serving me very well. And I repeat: nothing gets lost; it only gets moved to the middle.
That's only if you use a mono maker or stereo field processor. If you cut out the frequencies using an EQ, they are removed. That's how any EQ lowcut works.
@@jle5779 Apparently you're not aware of how mid/side works
@@kelainefes Apparently you're not aware of how mid/side works
@UCq1QTKRL0JS2DPyq3u4kIwA The test as you describe it doesn't make much sense; you might wanna re-read that.
Having said that, I have done many tests in the past, regarding things like this, and I do know what I am talking about.
@@matthijshebly apologies for my previous comment, I do know how M/S works, and in fact I ran my test and it proved you right.
It does move stereo information closer to the centre.
Thank you for comment.
Note to self, when suggesting someone runs a test, make sure I run it first.
Pro engineers don't have these problems; they know better
I'm running a mono sub at about 70hz so..........?
Many things to consider. First, professional studios usually have stereo subs or full range mains like me, so the 2.1 is more a home listening system than a fully professional one, and second, are you high passing your satellites or not? Because I personally am not a fan of high passing sats for this exact reason.
@@mixbustv The filters are built in to the sub. 10" Genelec sub and 6.5 inch Genelec 8040's. Stereo subs? Really? I thought the whole argument for using mono subs was that humans can't really define the direction of sub frequencies?
@@grahamtaylor6883 Mono subs are a thing because placement and room treatment are easier and cheaper if you have one sub.
And one sub is cheaper than 2 subs.
@@grahamtaylor6883 I'm by no means an expert on this, but even though sub frequencies are harder to pinpoint directionally, I've been told having multiple subwoofers makes standing waves in the sub region less of a problem. Take that with a pinch of salt and ask someone with more knowledge, it could be snakeoil for all I know. But yes, the lower the freq the harder it is to tell where it's coming from, though not impossible depending on the room and the speakers and your listening position (and if you're aware that the subs are moving in the stereo field or not). Ofc you can easily hear it on headphones.
@@bananermat3798 OK mate, thanks for the input. I'll check that out. I see a lot of producers though making things mono below 100hz. Calvin Harris was even pushing his stuff to 150hz in mono. I guess it could be genre specific?
Funny how at the same time people are eager to reduce everything about mixing & mastering to a strict set of rules (do this, this, and that) which MUST work on every single track in every single genre, and at the same time go: "there are no rules" 🤣
Great vid!
Been mixing for several years, but I still wasn't satisfied with my mixes. And when I compared them with other mixes, I could sense that I'm doing something wrong over and over. One of those is exactly the thing that you explained in this video - "Mixing is not like a puzzle". After hearing that and seeing the rest of the video it immediately cleared up a lot of my misconceptions, including harshly cutting out frequencies to "make space" for other things. Thank you a lot for this!
Monitoring issue ..better converters listening environment not the tools or knowledge.Also sounding like others is not good they have different views
I used to watch your content so long ago when I knew nothing and it's so pleasant to be able to understand everything you say in videos now after so many years. This is one of the most fulfilling careers ever in my opinion. Loving the content!
_"Cut the low frequencies on the sides. Trust me, a guy who mixes on headphones and can't hear this shit anyway"_ Yes that hyper-specific thing with potentially extreme phase consequences is absolutely necessary to get a good mix. You absolutely need that 0.1db of headroom to make things louder. You couldn't possibly just turn down your 2bus and do the exact same thing. Wait, aren't the guys who believe this garbage the same people who think the loudness war is over? Why do they care about loudness when they think Spotify is going to turn things down for them? _It's like they don't actually know what they're doing_
I worked with the owner of a Latin music orchestra as a FOH sound tech and stage rigger, he once reprimanded me about cutting below 50Hz on a performance we had because to me it was normal and at the time I did it so they wouldn't couple the stage monitors with the mics. "Keep things simple, fix it, never subtract." That's what he said. He was right and I could see it for myself.
There’s no such thing as “never subtract”
@@BR_READDY225 actually yes, you can review the FFT (Fast Fourier Transformación) EQs, Reaper have 1 on the stock plugins, literally you can substract the noise or sound you want, but not expect the best of it.
It's live sound. While a lot of skills overlap, it's a different arena.
There is one area where side low cutting is applicable though - when mastering for vinyl. Would be bad to have the needle jump off the grooves.
Cutting lows on the sides will not give you certainty that your needle won't jump same as having them won't necessarily make it jump
@@mixbustv Agreed! I don't cut lows on the sides when mastering for vinyl. I would rather rely on the expertise of the vinyl cutting engineer to exercise their best judgement as to whether or not to apply an elliptical filter as needed. After all, they are the ones who create the test pressing.
Unfortunately, your examples of isolating the side image was 100% incorrect. Whenever you filter in M/S, to listen to S you must use M, for anything below the frequency spectrum you are isolating will manipulate the S's. Whereas when high-pass the S below the filter frequency range, you are making everything behind the isolation "M.". When you used the low-cut filter in S mode, you isolated M. That technique is used when you want to make your low-end more "Mono (AKA CENTERED)," which narrows the Mono's signal information. IMHO, a better example is to duplicate the example tracks in pairs, slap Voxengo MSED (Mid-Side EDitor) on each, rename the tracks "Mid" and "Side," "MUTE" the Side on the Mid Channel, and reverse the "Side" Channel by muting the Mid. Of course, Mute the original Channel used for duplication. This is excellent for signal processing, given you more freedom to process what your "EARS" hears, since there is no right or wrong way to Mix and Master. Depending on what I receive from the artist, This is one technique I use for Mastering when it is received in Stereo format. Your mileage may vary. You are monitoring the Mids, not the Sides when you low-cut in S mode. Therefore, your entire video is inaccurate and erroneous. The MD of M/S, Mathew Lane's DrMS presets are an exceptional example of how the separation of M and S information is designed to widen or narrow the stereo's frequency with perceived separation.
Unfortunately you completely missed the point with your very first line.
@@mixbustv No Sir I did not miss the point. If there is bass information on the side, as in stereo bass, cutting the low end on the side will deeply alter the low end as a whole. It can sound weak, less aggressive, and anorexic. In that context, I agree wholeheartedly with you. It is when there is low end content of other instruments that is taking up space that is not needed to make the center more powerful, weighty, clean, crisp, and focused that will add more headroom as a whole. Also, it can remove unwanted artifacts (not harmonic distortion AKA Saturation), rumble from other instruments that can not be heard by the human ear, since we can not hear below 20Hz, and Frequency Masking. I only emphasized the listening examples when in headphones isolation mode was the mid, not the side. Also, having subwoofer information on the side will entail masking across most of the frequency spectrum, especially at 250Hz, where the masking is most prominent. Anything below 250Hz increases the range masking takes place throughout the frequency spectrum. Centering the subwoofer information on the mid will make it more focused and detailed, especially on smartphones, earbuds, and small monitor speakers, such as the Auratones.
You are knowledgeable and your content is legitimate. I started engineering (recording, mixing, and mastering in 1982. My first Multi-Grammy nomination was in 1986 for Creative (Production), Performance and Technical that included Multi-Platinum (El DeBarge). In no way I am tooting my own horn. All I am saying is opinions are subjective.
@@AuteriaWWinzerJr You’re correct, so he’s actually listening to the lows in mono, not stereo so this whole video was pretty much pointless lol?
Nice to hear someone say this. It’s never made sense to me either. I’ve even tried it and it made my mix feel weird.
Thank you so much for this video David. Both the "cutting lows from the sides" and "mixing is a puzzle" issues are things that I have been thinking about for a while. Hearing the lows in the sides of big name tracks was really helpful. Nice one.
Hi David, fantastic video. What are your thoughts on removing sub information from the sides during mastering in electronic genres (such as psychedelic trance) where preserving the phase relationship between kick and bass even when collapsed to mono is critical to the desired effect?
I thought I my I just talked about this in the video?
@@mixbustv Maybe I misunderstood, I thought your video was more about some people cutting the sub info from the side in order to gain infinitesimal headroom, but losing the balls of the mix in the process. I was commenting on the benefits of removing the subs from the sides at the mastering stage in order to minimise phase cancellations when it's collapsed to mono. Specifically in genres where a clean kick and bass phase relationship is important.
@@ajja The way I look at it is like this... solo the sides below 60 and then solo the mids below 60. If you can hear massive thumping sub bass in the sides, sure that's probably not good... but that's not what you will hear in the tracks in the video. I guess it could seem subtle, but that little bit of stereo width in the bottom definitely adds balls and stereo image, even if it's not the full sub bass or kick. Long story short, compare the sides and mids on all frequencies to major releases... that should tell you what you should be doing.
Love this style of video. Strong ideas and concepts backed up with hard evidence and examples. Thanks again, David!
I made a surprising discovery about cutting low end in general. I recorded some tracks, only voice and acoustic guitar (Dreadnought). Everyone said „cut the lows, the Dreadnoughts are awful to record“. So I started cutting the lows step by step and when I tried to master, I was wondering why everything sounded a bit too cold and harsh.
After some time, I found your channel and I went back the raw tracks with almost no processing. I did a test and played them through my MIXDREAM, added some Stereo width, centered the vocals and it sounded so much better 😀. Day and night difference to me. Now, I can start to begin mixing again with a much deeper understanding. Thanks David.
PS And when I do some side chain, I know what to do and what not to do.
You speak wisdom my friend. Much respect. So much misinformation online and even in magazines. People just make $hit up. Anyone can start a UA-cam channel and go nuts.
As fas I am concerned, the best records were made in the 70s and 80s; no mid/side, no resonance suppression, no fancy multiband compression. If it was good enough for them, it’s good enough for us. Good ears, and a well balanced mix go a long way in making a classic master.
How much of the lows in the sides are due to Stereo Widening on the master chain?
Depends on the mix
One of my noob discoveries was lo cut....then in another phase I discovered it again as a problem. While useful, I was binding the horse behind the wagon. And actually I see this a lot with videos that are made by home producers and not professionals. Because many, and me to, producing electronic music. And here is where i was binding the horse behind the wagon. Think about Beethoven, when he lost his hearing he still composed. He knew where to place the instruments. That kind of is obscured when you produce electronic and you see sampled instruments as part of the electronic music. But it starts with composition, where is this instrument, or designed sound sitting in the mix. Now I don't use channel strips, first gainstage, volume panning and the slowly adding eq compression, channel strips. But far far less. Many tracks I run through my outboard gear. Doing far less eq ing, lo cutting, compressing. If design sounds as synth addict, before I make a song, I know put much more work in the composition to begin win with. When you produce home, there's always overlap. But try to seperate sound design, composition, mixing. Mixing, think volume panning first...
I'm on good speakers and there is absolutely no rumble. I think it's the youtube converstion.
Oh no there is
What about Reese bases? Should I mono the sub or should I leave the sub wide. Usually the entire synth all the way down to the lowest fundamental is massively stereo. Genuinely curious though I should do some experimenting. Usually I use ozone imager to mono the lowest fundamental and then use a multi band compressor to make that fundamental as consistent in volume as possible.
The Reeses power is in its phasy stereoness. Definitely leave the sides in. BUT. Reese's are sometimes made using phase shift, so fold your Reese into mono and see if it disappears, if it does choose another Reese that doesn't.
@@NoQualmsTheArtist what if I use a pure sine wave an octave below?
@@fernandomanqueo8683 a pure soundwave is perfectly in phase so it doesn't matter if it's mono or stereo as the exact information is coming through both speakers, which is what mono really is anyway.
Parkway Drive Romance is Dead is so classic. Nice video idea too! Super insightful!
Just analyzing sounds of analog synths and digital VSTs, you will be surprised how many bass sounds have vital information in the low sides.
Always love your stuff David...
hmm...not agreeing with you here if thats ok...nothing to do with headroom...it’s because the lower the freq, the more kinetics, the more that phase is critical. Mono
Of course is ok to disagree :D I think it boils down to simply trying. If you have a pair of monitors the same size or reproduction range as mine, anyone would take 30 seconds to hear the difference. I can't even fathom the idea of monoing below 100Hz
i rather control the mid low levels
question: Lets say that kick and bass are in mono. Leaving sub frequencies of other sounds (samples for example) only in sides wouldn´t affect the phase of kick and bass? tnx and nice videos!
No it won't. Direct phase relation only happens with mult (copying your bass or kick and doing parallel processing) or multi-mic'd sources (i.e. 2 mic on a kick or snare or bass cab etc..). Everything else falls into masking which COULD include minor and in 99% of cases totally insignificant phase inter-play between instruments but that's.. mixing and in the particular example you gave, just no.
@@mixbustv tnx again!
I saw quite time ago a video about mastering an EDM song and the guy cut the low end on the sides under 120... I hope he'll never be hired to master a metal song cause he'd suck out completely the power from the rhythm guitars. I have some questions David: is it wrong to cut at 20 the kick and bass - on individual tracks - and at 80 the rhythm guitars - either on the individual track or their individual bus - in a metal track? I find that in those genres you don't need tons of subs - instead I try to have the highest amount of low midrange as I can get without sounding muddy. Anyway great video! 👏
Yes it's okay, but 80 for guitars could be too much especially if they're down tuned. I prefer control over cut. Cut at 50-60, control the rest
Excelente vídeo!
I don't understand what is meant by "sides"
i see so many tutorials, where people carving stuff out with sidechain or eq and then try to "glue" everything together on the bus afterwards. completly contrary imo
You hear it with good monitors ..
ARRANGEMENT is a puzzle. Every part needs to occupy its own space. You can't have, like, four melodies going simultaneously, so fitting each part into its own "space", both timing and frequency-wise, is a crucial part of writing and producing songs. If that's not done well, the mixing process isn't going to make any difference.
Eh, not really. You can definitely have multiple melodies going, you can also have multiple counter-melodies going at the same time. Just like you have multiple vocals, multiple guitars, etc.. You wouldn't have two snares or two kicks doing different groves but then again, if they fit..
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!