Dreams, Stories, Psychedelics & Consciousness | Tor Nørretranders | EP 441
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- Опубліковано 11 тра 2024
- Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with author and speaker Tor Nørretranders. They discuss the entropy of emotion, the nature of pointlessness, the over-civilization of societal structures, how relationships shape perception, and why play might be the antithesis to tyranny.
Tor Nørretranders is an independent author, thinker and speaker based in Denmark, serving an international audience. He has published over 30 books on topics ranging from society to human consciousness.
This episode was recorded on March 29th, 2024
Dr. Peterson's extensive catalog is available now on DailyWire+: bit.ly/3KrWbS8
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- Links -
2024 tour details can be found here jordanbpeterson.com/events
Peterson Academy petersonacademy.com/
For Tor Nørretranders:
The User Illusion:
www.amazon.com/User-Illusion-...
The Generous Man:
www.amazon.com/Generous-Man-H...
Wild food and agriculture:
madfeed.co/video/from-wild-to...
madfeed.co/video/we-are-here-...
madfeed.co/video/whos-got-the...
Website www.tor.dk/
Article "We Are Waking Up": www.tor.dk/2019/05/06/we-are-...
- Chapters -
(0:00) Coming up
(0:37) Intro
(2:11) The User Illusion, selective awareness
(11:00) How stories act as pointers for value, predictive processing
(21:05) Karl Friston, entropy and emotion
(23:39) Motivation, loaded perceptions
(28:58) Supernature, sperm and asymmetry
(31:58) Kayak angst, the removal of sensory data
(34:03) Pointlessness, how aim creates hope
(36:08) Exodus, compressing what’s there
(37:17) How psychedelic experiences multiple the emotional landscape
(41:16) The Tower of Babel, the first builders of cities
(47:54) Cain, how agriculture changed worldview
(49:49) Food has become “over-civilized” and that’s the problem
(55:05) Machines for living, excess orientation
(56:28) The Japanese economic miracle, establishing new points
(58:04) The sense of meaning, the raindrop analogy
(1:02:42) Fantasy and substituting presumption
(1:06:02) Gracing demise, and how relationships shape perception
(1:08:13) Every person is a universe
(1:12:49) Play as the antithesis of tyranny
(1:20:23) Peripheral code, the experimental fringe
(1:27:17) Pride and the moral order
(1:29:05) The pathology of force
(1:31:24) Seeing your interactions with the world as a relationship
(1:34:54) Reality is a consequence of your aim
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Psychedelics are just an exceptional mental health breakthrough. It's quite fascinating how effective they are against depression and anxiety. Saved my life.
Can you help with the reliable source I would really appreciate it. Many people talk about mushrooms and psychedelics but nobody talks about where to get them. Very hard to get a reliable s0urce here in Australia. Really need!
Yes, Psychehubs. I have the same experience with anxiety, depression, PTSD and addiction and Mushrooms definitely made a huge huge difference to why am clean today.
I wish they were readily available in my place.
Microdosing was my next plan of care for my husband. He is 59 & has so many mental health issues plus probable CTE & a TBI that left him in a coma 8 days. It's too late now I had to get a TPO as he's 6'6 300+ pound homicidal maniac.
He's constantly talking about killing someone.
He's violent. Anyone reading this Familiar w/ BPD know if it is common for an obsession with violence.
Is he on instagram?
Yes he is. (Psychehubs)
This is the conversation that I’ve always sensed Jordan Peterson is trying to have, regardless of whom he is in discussion with. It’s so compelling, and utterly refreshing, to finally watch him in conversation with someone so close to his native cognitive terrain.
DR. PETERSON PLEASE CHECK OUT GARY WAYNE....HE IS FROM YOUR OLD NEIGHBOR HOOD BUT IS A WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE THIS GENERATION NEEDS AS THE DROWNING DO A LIFE RAFT
When the Alan Watts comes out in him.. ;)
@@Imitatechristcringe... not even funny. Just cringe your comment... but I guess each to their own! All the best , God bless you.
The terrific little tailored smoking jacket and vest, jordan now trying desperately to emulate our very own, studied, resident (slightly wacky) seize the day, Cambridge, towering, intellectual, genius professor. Where's Christopher Hitchens when we need him? Hitchens said all the interesting people are in he'll, so that's no doubt that's where he's headed.
@@ImitatechristNo. Alan Watts had a sense of humour ...
Dr Peterson, please start your Q&A sessions again.
Exactly
Yeah I miss these quite a bit, I think they might be on DW+
He’s too busy to talk with us small people
@@mlsc7499JP is incredibly compassionate and is like a loving father to many struggling and broken people, he's not above anyone nor does he act like it, apparently you've been deceived by the egregiously false and defamatory campaign to destroy his vastly helpful and humanitarianly positive impact and influence on so many of us that strive to be better versions of ourselves. ☦️❤️🔥🕊🛐 In Jesus's name
@@mlsc7499He's busy helping so MANY people, he humble and incredibly passionate about his selfless service to the toughest problems that plague us today. Its apparent that you lack integrity or true information on just how amazing and precious of a man that Dr. Peterson truly is. ☦️❤️🔥🕊🛐 In Jesus's name
Wise old men (and women) were and always will be the repository of the essence of human wisdom and experience.
We have listened to them, sitting around fire for ages, all across the world.
They are the true story tellers, having stumbled through the jungle of life, tasting the sweet fruits and licking their wounds from the thorny bushes. They have healed and hopefully have a poise and sanity not readily accessible in youth.
Its wonderful and sad at the same time, that we have to mostly come to the internet to access them today.
These two gentleman are the grandfathers our kids need .
If only we respected our elders more and had fewer old age homes. And connected more with them.........
On the other hand we have these old incompetent men as leaders all around the world who do more harm.
Couldn't agree more
Since he had suffered a serious illness and his wife escaped death, Jordan no longer speaks every third sentence about crazy Nietzsche. Now he quotes from the Bible every third sentence
“and every time I've held a rose
It seems I only felt the thorns
And so it goes, and so it goes
And so will you, soon, I suppose”
-Billy Joel
That’s the kind of person we are talking about. Someone that can write lyrics like THAT know what’s up :) ❤
Thankfully some wisdom gets imparted by music whether people realize it or not. It’s there if they pay attention :)
Nice and helpful comment... thank you for this.
Jordan Peterson, Andrew Huberman, Robert Greene. These legends came about at the right time when the world is collapsing.
Only Robert Greene is real. The rest are microceleberties that will be forgotten with time.
@@01FNG Just coz they became celebrities doesn't mean they knowledge isn't timeless. Let's see how things go
World is collapsing? Really?
@@01FNGobjection
@@01FNGwdymean he's the only real. The dude has a very pessimistic approach that if you wanna be consistent with His teachings you will always be skeptic about other people's actions, specially the good one's that it draws you out of that genuine joy of being a recepient of a love action or good deed.
13 minutes in and Dr Jordan had a point...when teachers develop a lesspn plan they specify a goal and that's drawn from a value at a point in time, or a given amount of time. Its absolutely amazing how certain ideas can be represented in different domains
Former cowboy, now old family Physician this brought back tons of memories before I was halfway through listening to the discussion. I saw the connections to agriculture and my mind was one step ahead of the conversation all the way.
I’m 49, “successful”, don’t drink, had never done a party drug as a kid. Was always on the straight and narrow as a result of a chaotic upbringing. At 40 yrs old, did psychedelics (5 MEO-DMT, ayahuasca with shaman) and it’s radically changed my life for the better. ❤ I’ve accessed a deeper intelligence within and without. My mind and heart are expanded beyond measure and I’ve discovered a pliability within myself that enriches me and gives me a deeper understanding for the nature of life and being human.
I'm pretty sure 5 m e o DMT and Ayahuasca are two completely different things. Both powerful psychedelics that have benefits yes but not the same thing
@@trichomeking72 Hi. Yes, definitely far from the same thing & very different experiences. Both providing their own insight and wisdom.
Having gone quite far with the psychedelics, I had originally thought they were a good thing. Now, I have a different perspective. I am becoming more and more convinced this was the forbidden fruit referred to in Genesis. The knowledge we gain is not meant for us. We do not understand it, and are left susceptible to be deceived by ancient beings with much more knowledge than us. You begin by feeling connected to every thing and eventually proclaim yourself as being a god. "Even Satan masquerades as an angel of light."
There is a term used in scuba diving called “rapture of the deep” which is a very similar sensation to what the danish kayakers may have felt when seeing a world of blue around them. Without input or point of reference your mind creates its own narrative. This is such an interesting and informative conversation between brilliant thinkers. Thank you!
"blue" dives. lol
I've never felt so smol
I love these sorts of intriguing, intellectually stimulating discussions. Thank you Dr. Peterson!
THANK you 👍 Both and JP 🙏. What a wonderful time in life to be in to share the world with JP and making this information free!!!
Concluding remark: "That was great fun." This is a testament to Jordan's entire intellectual enterprise by which he invites other great minds to explore ideas together. It is an intellectual endeavor of play and thus of love.
Another wonderful conversation with another intellectual giant. Thank you, Dr. P. God bless you both.
An interesting discussion as usual. Monday and Thursday evenings are now spent listening to Dr Peterson's latest interview. Always thought-provoking and stimulating. Thanks to all involved.
@49:00-50:00, now that is a sutble connection nicely done Dr. Peterson!
TLDR People are expressing their admiration for Jordan Peterson and his conversations, and are eager for more content and Q&A sessions.
I keenly enjoyed the teaser trailer yesterday and have been looking forward to the conversation ever since! Will be watching after the kids go to bed because I want to be able to concentrate without interruptions.
I got the biggest kick out of your Babylon Bee interview with Travis, dearest Dr. Peterson! It was such a delight to me to see you enjoying yourself hugely, so good to hear you genuinely laugh because the interview struck you funny and not because poor human nature is being what it is. The bits that made me laugh till I cried was watching you trying and failing to keep a straight face. I never forget what it was like seeing you so sick we thought you might never laugh again, and now you do, and it’s so good.
Dr. Peterson, I know you’re having the devil’s own time with religious trolls lately, and I was thinking. Jonathan’s been talking about the gargoyles on the outside of the church. They are the fringe, the guardians of the church. Sometimes frightening, sometimes grotesque, sometimes grimly amusing, but always off-putting. They don’t represent anything connected with church but there they are, difficult to ignore, impossible to explain. And I think that the religious trolls, online or in person, correspond with those gargoyles. I don’t know what purpose they serve. Perhaps they are intended to test the resolve of those who might enter the church but are fearful. What I do know is that perfect theology does not make a person a Christian; only living in imitation of Christ does.
That’s all the thoughts my children are letting me think for the moment so I will return to listen later on.
With so very much love
Ruth Anne ❤
Somebody is trolling all my comments ;( I didn't get to read your reply on the other thread because some idiot made a nasty comment and the entire thing was deleted. Please recomment on my page somewhere as I was very interested to hear your thoughts. God bless.
@@DailyCorvid oh no, the trolls are out tonight! You can tell, I think, that I put my whole heart into everything I write, even if it is only a UA-cam comment, because there isn’t any point in writing otherwise. I was thinking about your comment on Our Lord coming back to judge the world in righteousness, and how His peaceful and meek and gentle side will be in abeyance on that day, and I connected that in my thoughts with the Revelations, and the image of Our Lord as a judge with a sword coming out of his mouth. The imagery was of Our Lord girt about the breast with a golden girdle, and I was taught that symbolizes that His divine affections were restrained, bound in, not pouring forth but constrained, until the judgement demanded by His holiness was complete. Your comment reminded me of those meditations.
Thank you for this. I think a conversation on the value and meaning of poetry should be interesting.
Alright, Dr. Peterson. Seems lile we're getting closer to the time when you will talk to Bernardo Kastrup (or Rupert Spira, for that matter).
I am certain both concersations will bring temendous value to all of us.
Either way, thank you for your everything you do!
1:40:09 the inspired thought is infinite and it’s in everyone! Our minds through the word and emotion=spirit.. don’t listen to the haters.. it just embraces the light ❤❤❤
10:37 yes, it’s the way I pray using the body energy with the mind conciousness..❤ praying.. ❤24/7❤
I enjoyed this conversation. Thank you both.
Interesting to see these two together. Some years back Jordan Peterson asked people to write him book- recommendations and I surgested "The User Illusion: Cutting Consciousness Down to Size" by Tor Nørretranders.
As usual JBP has probably been there, done that, and wrote a dozen papers on it. HA!
As usual JBP has probably been there, done that, and wrote a dozen papers on it. HA!
As a dane It's so cool to see a guest from our little country. I was not aware of Tor's existence, so this is really cool as I'm also very interested in consciousness and the mind.
This episode was really entertaining and touched on many topics I enjoyed pondering on. The mind is so amazingly fascinating and I can feel there's a lot left to be discovered. I say that because I've experienced first hand the unbelievable capability of the brain when asleep and barely conscious as a very lucid dreamer. With the things I see, it's no wonder fantastical ideas in myths and ancient religious imagery were imagined. Much like AI is based on input, our brain and what we imagine also operates on input, but there's much more variance than just that, as we're biological. That's why I think any super advanced AI would have to be biomechanical.
What I keep coming back to is that chaos to some extent is a necessary good, otherwise we would never have been wired to deal with it. We wouldn't have made a shield to block it with.
A shield or a sieve? Or maybe a filter? Or maybe filter(s), plural, probably connected to each subconscious domain. Anger, hunger and so on. Filters scan the chaos for any tools or obstacles as sense data comes in. UseFUL proceeds to awareness for evaluation to current aims and goals; useLESS gets stored, probably during sleep when external input overload slows them stops, into whichever categories the input goes per individual filters so isn't processed continually. Or that can be recalled later if goals or paths have to change later due to change in circumstances.
Why lack of GOOD sleep is so detrimental. Can never offload the useless "stuff" like when a computer is never cold booted. HA!
A shield or a sieve? Or maybe a filter? Or maybe filter(s), plural, probably connected to each subconscious domain. Anger, hunger and so on. Filters scan the chaos for any tools or obstacles as sense data comes in. UseFUL proceeds to awareness for evaluation to current aims and goals; useLESS gets stored, probably during sleep when external input overload slows them stops, into whichever categories the input goes per individual filters so isn't processed continually. Or that can be recalled later if goals or paths have to change later due to change in circumstances.
Why lack of GOOD sleep is so detrimental. Can never offload the useless "stuff" like when a computer is never cold booted. HA!
@@wendellbabin6457 It's more complicated than a shield for sure. It's no doubt many things. I just know that my mind feels 10 times smarter and enhanced, maybe more, when I'm in hypnopompia. Creating music, meaningful dialogue, and rhyming poems on the fly, as well as places, a plot, characters and so on. I'm gonna be working on recreating one of those dreams, as I remember about 90% of it.
I suppose it's true that nothing is ever offloaded, but if something was, that would explain the brainsand phenomenon I guess.
1:40:48❤thank you more for receiving the inspired thought that you carry ❤
Brilliant conversation - this conversation was true dia-logos. It was beautiful to see them truly seeing and engaging with each other. There was a depth to this conversation that was only possible due to this quality of engagement.
Thank you - you both shared some amazing things to think about and engage with on a philosophical and practical level (especially as I’m recently married and am engaging with Love at a depth I’ve never thought I could).
Thank you Jordan and Tor 🙏
See, taste, touch, smell, hear, think and feel...understanding and exploring these 7 steps deeper is necessary for increased clarity. We experience all of these til' about 7 yrs of age before we move on to want, need, act, react, lose, win, pain, fear, second chance, loss, age, death. It's when we moved on that we tend to lose touch with the first steps, the most important ones to understanding oneself and otthers for any matter.
I would love to listen to a conversation between Dr Peterson and Dr. Bernardo Kastrup
Love is free there are no limitation to ur free will spirit.. such as envy jealousy..❤
Jordan very kind you share these interviews for free 👍
The discussion of confusing our concept of someone with the actual someone has helped me understand that my painful separation and upcoming divorce is in fact the hand of God shaking me out of delusion. Thank you for this meaningful and healing conversation. Really looking forward to seeing Dr. Peterson when he comes to DC in June.
I enjoyed very much this conversation. I have been following Dr. Peterson since 2018 and would like to continue watching the conversation at the DW. I stopped my suscription because the interface of the DW is very annoying, everytime I had to stop and then come back to watch i had to scroll to find in what minute of the conversation I was. I sent my comments with no answer so I quited. Hopefully the DW will improve this soon.
Growing brain cells by the second watching this amazing video ! Thanks Dr. !!
That's what I love about this conversation. The ability of you both to articulate these truths in such an easy way.
Jordan thanks for your compassion and hard work. You make life a little more better 😉. Wow 🎉❤😊
Refresh your sensory imput-- the power of inspiration through art-visual and live performance with a message of beauty and hope. We need this for our spirit and heart.
Won't lie, I may have to listen to this multiple times to understand and grasp all aspects of the discussion.
When you know you’re in DEEP with Dr. Jordan Peterson, “We’ll start with a brief description of the World..”🌎😳😂💀
So true lol - he's like "just start with a brief overview of the most complex concept ever".
OG Peterson is the best Peterson, I tire of the political stuff. This stuff is what I am here for!
It was in watching Jordan in this video, especially around the midpoint when he brought in Jehovah placing Moses in the cleft of the rock, the Tower of Babel, and Cain and Abel, that I realized I should also be looking for opportunities to bring these and other Biblical stories into my conversations. He really has inspired me to push forward assertively but graciously with these illustrations that are embedded with rich meaning.
I got so much out of this. Thank you both. Thank you Dr. Peterson for your service to mankind.
I highly enjoyed everything this conversation offered. A great choice of guest. Thank you.
Do another one!! Was good back and forth. 😊
I swear the universe practices synchronicity... I've been deep diving on psychedelics and consciousness recently and then Jordan posts this interview about EXACTLY what's been on my mind recently. Very interesting.
All of his videos at some point do cover this subject matter 😂 what type of psychedelics? I have also been reading about neurogenesis associated with cubensis mushrooms and the effects of lions main on brain health. I have been wondering if microdosing using hemisphere synchronization in the Alpha range coupled with specific study materials might speed up memorization.
Shrooms and All psychedelics and who is hallucinogenic compounds are divine ❤🎉😂 6:22
How did your deep dive go? What molecule did you end up using?
Protons Neutrinos and Quantra
DMT lol
I wish this was longer 🥲
I just started it up again and listened one more time.. ;)
Elevated serotonin is part of a stress response . Thats why it makes no sense they're THE antidepressant. Sometimes depressed people need something other than more perspective.
When the spring finally came about, and the sun was shining, the warmth was there and everything became bright again, it was like my depression completely lifted that I had during the winter. And I feel a tremendous love for life when serotonin is heightened, a natural product of sunlight and homeostasis.
Absolute gem!
Amazing, just amazing. I loved this one.
This conversation is so Dante!
As a self professed student of the MIND, I loved this podcast, thank you gentlemen, BLESS YOU !!!
This is a really interesting and thought provoking conversation.
Thankyou both...
This is one of the most interesting conversations i have ever heard. Fantastic.
I will have to listen to this video at least three more times to understand half of it.
Read this book years ago and it's excellent. A true science writer who doesn't dumb things down, yet clearly explains, for a presumed non-scientist reader.
This is a really gem episode. I thought about that a lot and now it is so structured with words by these amazing men. Bravo!
What a phantastic conversation, thank you both!
I am so thankful for these conversations.
Awesome conversation. Thankyou so much for this.
Thank you doctor .
Begin with discussing consciousness and end at relationships and everything in between.
I travel on the road a lot. I've never been tired of listening to JP's conversations with his guests.
Maybe one day there'll be a conversation on the topic of Quantum Physics.
Another discussion with better audio would be super!
I love thinking about consciousness too. I would like if Dr Peterson could recommend a reading list on notable works on this subject. ❤
"Two concepts I would put up against each other is evil and love". That is wisdom...
Extremely deep episode.
Good evening Jordan and Tor
Interesting shared conversation, for sure.
Love the rain drop analogy.
Truly grateful for your continued shared work.
Sanity brain gym.
💜
Carol, it’s Ruth Anne! I remember a while back you were really going through a hard time. I was hoping things were better and if not, that you were drawing strength and comfort from Dr. Peterson’s work as I am.
This is truth: I use the fast growing trees for my home landscaping. Can vouch-love them!! So glad they are a sponsor
Fantastic discussion
Absolutely fantastic, as always, bravo Bravo
What a fabulous talk. I also enjoyed the extra content on the daily wire side. Well worth it! I really love the ideas being shared here and how it feels like a nice back and forth. Loved it!
"When we speak with each other we are offering the fruits of our imagination... Each word is a storehouse of value or pointer to value" Hit home for me
It's crucial to recognize that while we naturally simplify our experiences to navigate life, we must also remain aware of this tendency and keep ourselves open to the broader realities that surpass our understanding.
spot on!
The observation that the opposite of evil is love is quite interesting, I’m going to be doing thought experiments for days.
Wow! such an amazing talk! Thank u both so so much!!! The course things arte taking in regards to psychedelics and neurosciences are giving me lots of hope for the world thay may shall come!
Thank you Jordan
Fantastic Conversation……..🌞
Your advice and influence are well received kind sir, for which I call you not just because of your aged keratin or physical frame. Grace and mercy shall follow you all the days of your life. And once again many thank yous and kindness towards you for your advice and continued instruction. Many things need to be agreed upon however all things are known. Ollo.
This was a great interview JP. The narrowing and broadening especially with the agricultural example was very powerful for me, a very intelligent conversation with a very intelligent guest.
Love how he explains his ideas! The kids in the woods at night vs in the day was a perfect metaphor. 👌 @ 1:28:38 - maybe something like "only Siths deal in absolutes."
Oh this is just getting better... didn't realize this guy was on point w/wild foods! 🙌🙌
This is one of my favorite episodes yet. Eager to read some of Tor Nørretranders books now.
Uugjuhyuuu que
Thank you very much!
Very enlightening conversation, thanks to both of you!
I love their discussion on fine dining and how an emphasis on local seasonal crops is what's made Noma stand out on a global stage.
But cooking as an artform is still rich despite the reliance on staples like the 4 crops.
So what happens if everyone adopts this seasonal mentality?
Would the hypothetical ideal be techniques from every culinary tradition applied to the local ingredients of every region?
Food is already incredibly diverse now, but the possibilities are endless!
Great episode! @JordanBPeterson you should make a point to interview every author in your list of books.
Many of them are deceased, so that may present some difficulty.
Sure I would accept "as many authors as possible" as a suitable edit.
Shatzen meets gestalt - We value and we see patterns, they inter act and inter relate... Feeding into each other and informing each other and determining value and meaning....
It wasn't the dark that terrified me. It was the sound of my own heart beating, and not knowing what it was.
That is the reason for anxiety and later depression,not knowing what it was.
Probably muscles.
Usually you are feeling tension douring the day than it escalete in hard beating of the heart and it stops in 5-10 min.
You need to strech that muscle or strenghten.
You are might exercising all days and forget to strech and your heart will beat like crazy out of nowhere
How lovely to listen to this two gentlemen, my first book by Tor was a wonderful book about science and intuition called Märk världen (the Swedish title). My world as a younger woman opened up in many positive ways. Might read again after listening to this. Isn’t life just wonderful! ❤
Mr. JBP, you've been an agent of transformation in the "fairy" tale of my life - thanks so much for this extremelly interesting, insightful and magical conversation!!!
1:10:46 This guest is just really really good!
Another great conversation.
46:13 OMG. With this, I understand my fundamental orientation or psychological bent in life, the hunter-gatherer mindset, and I understand my wife's mindset, the farmer, as well, and how differences in perspective therein arise.
I love this direction for your channel, this stuff is very fascinating.
54:18 shout out to the channel "Wild Harvest". Survivor man is always at the forefront of anything in nature.
Thanks
We gotta meet so I can explain.. gonna need a book and a 2 pens ❤❤❤
❤❤❤
Gold 💛 Thank you!
Love these stimulating episodes 🧠
Thank you sir.
Enjoying this, learning a lot
I loved this one. So cool.
Couldn't resist a silly question.
What is the meaning behind having a ladder in the background of both of you all?
When I meet him I'll tell him the layers of the mind
Would love to see another conversation of these two… in person hopefully one day!
It is an interesting point about the fall from the garden Eden as the move from hunting and gathering to farming… another indication for this that I read in a book once, was that after the fall, Adam had to to the earth and Eve would give labour in pain - the author related the start of farming to a change in women’s hips, but I don’t remember why that was…