The Interest Is Up And The Harley Market Is Down? Can CEO Jochen Zeitz Recover It?
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- Reports show that Harley-Davidson Motorcycle shipments were down 20% in Q3 and revenue as a whole was down 9%. Now, breaking that down further, motorcycles were down 9% as were Parts and Accessories. Interestingly, Apparel was down 29% while Licensing was down 10%. And last, and most disturbing, their Operating Income was down a whopping 37%. Harley CEO and President Jochen Zeitz had some answers for the low numbers.
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I recently looked at a 2022 street glide special price was 26,500. Was really excited to possibly purchase it. Was looking to trade in a 2021 sportster 48. The Dealership only offered me 6000 for trade-in then they still try to charge me 26,500 out the door for the bike. They brought me out of paper saying that I could get the bike for 515 a month for 84 months before they even ran my credit score so I knew how the deal was gonna go so I got up and left. The showroom was packed with new and used motorcycles. I don’t think you could fit another motorcycle in there. I could easily afford it, but I’m not paying that much for a motorcycle. Went to my local Kawasaki dealer they gave me $8000 trade-in credit left with a 2023 Kawasaki Vaquero that does every single thing I need on a motorcycle for the way I ride . Got the bike for 11,000 out the door with .99% interest rate for 36 months. Already paid the bike off and dang it feels good.
Wow
So Harley gave you very little in the way of value added purchase and tried to maximize profit Trade In, Purchase and Financing. That sucks. And I’m sure you know, $515 a month for 84 months is $43,260.
@@trex860 you are 100% correct. Every bike in the showroom floor is 3 to 5000 over MSRP. They had a Lowrider ST for $26,000. The sales guy that sold me my Kawasaki used to work for this dealership, and he originally sold me my sportster, and he left that Dealership for those very reasons you brought up. I like Harley Davidson motorcycles. I have a Dyna still in the garage. Buying the Kawasaki was the easiest experience in my life when it came to buying a new bike. Showed me the paperwork full breakdown what the out the door price was ran my credit I was in and out and probably an hour.
Vacs are pretty cool bikes.
Sad to say, that's the way some H-D dealers do business. You made a smart choice !
The higher the price, the smaller the market.
Yep! Pretty simple!
@@MCAdventurerHD131 31% as of 2020
Lower the price lower the margins. More production more cost.
Of cource every intelligent person understand the higher price the smaller sailmarket
Yes u agree but tell that to the hard working HD workers. Tell GM, Ford to lower the prices. It’s not the guys making $M a year it’s the small factory guys they will cut from.
Harley played a game and lost. They purposely made expensive products looking to reach a specific market and then the pandemic hit and the whole world went into a downward spiral. Nobody who isn’t wealthy can afford a Harley and the people who can afford them didn’t get to that status by wasting their money on overpriced products. This is just the beginning of the end. I have two Harleys a 2005 softail that I bought new and a 2018 Ultra Limited that I bought used. I love the bikes, hate the company.
I've bought a new Harley every 2 years. It's gotten so expensive that now I buy a new one every 10 years.
Used market makes it easy to buy a Harley. Then you can trade it in if and when the money is right. But yea, I’m having a hard time buying a new Cadillac every year. American consumers have a hard time with not being able to buy what we want when we want. Baby Boomers especially. Gen Xers seem a little more understanding of economic swings and have a healthy pessimism when it comes to the American Dream. The easy rules are: save your money and prioritize expenses when the economy is in a down turn. Practice patience until you can realistically buy a new toy.
I have a 2010 Ultra to pick up next week with just 14k milage, and at age 50 im going to ride it into the sunset at the prices they want.
@edwinbrown3303 an Indian sport cheif is more than a Lowrider s, a bmw gs1250 is more than a Pan America, and Indian ftr1200 is more than a Sportster S....so u better have a problem with everyone's pricing beyond the Malaysian sweatshop Japanese bikes.
Tell that to the car manufactures.
Was just in Dallas and they are selling the new CVOS for 52,000.
Just shoot me! I’ve been riding over 50 years and would never pay that for a bike. I don’t see HD surviving at those prices!!😢😢😢
Once you realize they're destroying the economy and the country, motorcycle sales being down isn't really a worry. 😅
God bless the ignorant Democrats .
Building Back Better is squeezing the toy money. Housing, groceries and just cost of living has cost everyone.
As a former customer, I want to see HD succeed. HD lost my business due to cam chain tensioners on twin cams. I can not get past HD sold these engines with no warning to customers, and worst, no assistance to fix. So, I am on to Indian or Honda (goldwing).
HD didn't even put maintenance reference into the FSM
There shouldn’t be chains at all. Cams should be gear driven
Sadly, HD pushing out family owned single dealerships has caused a decline in service and sales. Used to be felt like a family. Now, not so much. And service in my area has really declined in expertise. Paid a lot for two new bikes. Requested numerous upgrades. Received "Sorry, we didn't have time to complete that" and returned one bike with front light out. Told me bulb needed replacement. I found out bulb was ok. Tech, when removing light holder pulled power wire. Trust in fixing bike right really tanked.
Ryan you nailed it, disposable income is 0 for most people. Food gas,meds are causing real trouble for a lot of folks. Prayers that this gets better for all of us🙏😎
I test drove a Livewire in Kansas City back in 2014. After the ride, we were given a survey to fill out. Several questions about rideability, comfort, etc. I liked the bike, but it was too small for me. With a range of just over 100 miles on a charge, I thought it would make an excellent commuter bike in areas like Southern California. One of the last questions was how much Harley should ask for it. I put down the $10,000-$15,000 range (not knowing how much Harley spent on R&D) to attract first time and sport bike riders. When Harley finally got Livewires to their showrooms, they had an MSRP of $30,000. Who did they think were going to buy them at that price? I knew the Livewire program was DOA.
Lets get real, when you charge the same price for an air cooled motorcycle as a pickup truck something has to give, and when you have a CEO that comes out and says it's mainly old guys that buy these bikes and they have lots of money so lets soak them, it probably doesn't bod well with most buyers. Imagine $6000 extra for a paint job,, insane!!
Agree, HD adds a surcharge, Exaggerated shipping, Dealers add additional markup, setup and we haven't even got to normal tax, license & Dmv fee's.
There is a Harley / BMW dealer in So Cal. You take one look at the price tag on a BMW , then walk down the hall to the Harley side and take a look at their price tag on a bike that costs the same, and you’ll see in writing, you will pay a lot more out the door for a Harley. I’m like so many other people. Love my Harley but Harley wants nothing to do with me unless I’m willing to break bread.
I am in my mid 50’s and have been riding Harley’s for 25 years. I have owned 6 Harley’s in my lifetime . The prices have crept up too high while the trade values are too low. I love the brand and will continue to ride but I can no longer justify the high cost and I am in a comfortable position financially to afford. Prices are just too high to justify and many of my fellow riders are saying the same. Hope things come back in line down the road before it’s too late.
I echo your sentiment to a tee!
My stand alone Harley dealership is now selling Triumph and ebikes. The older crowd is dying off and young kids don't want them and can't afford them.
Yep. It is about value when you shop around and compare. A $10k bike will get your knees in the same breeze as a $30k new bike.
Ryan… I don’t want my head ripped off for writing this but since this past august it makes me happy to see Harley failing and here’s why….I had an issue with two dealers in the tri city area when I broke down travelling from Canada
I ride a 2008 vrod and one dealer south of othello laughed at me and said our techs aren’t comfortable with those bikes sorry ,the other north of othello said were busy sorry…..so I sent the tow truck to an applebees parking lot in Kennewick and spent the night getting it back on the road the best I could.
I own a fatboy and this vrod…and sadly after the lack of support my Harley shopping is over
I tossed out the t shirts
I can’t afford a new Harley and honesty I’m not super willing to hand over a ton of cash for an inferior motorcycle…
I don’t dig the new moto “we’re ditching the past to make history” cause us little guys who ride the old bikes get no support….I’ve Switched to another brand like many other people I know….
I’ve spent the majority of my life for that brand and it took one big trip to get my head straight…
And this isn’t exactly a dealer problem because I also talked to a rep for Harley and well I will end it at that.
Thanks for the honest comments
I haven't dealt with a dealership in over 30 years, if I can't fix it on the road myself I look for an Indy shop in the area I never ever consider a HD dealership.
@@1motomanicI hear you 100%…I assumed while
Being a traveller from out of country and broke down in Othello at a chevron,if I towed my bike to the nearest Harley dealership I could get help….it was a Saturday and No indies I found were open to help…getting laughed at for riding a vrod from the Kennewick dealer didn’t sit well with me (sorry for not having a bagger”….Harley ..
Sad thing is, Harley's haven't changed in years. They're always behind everyone in terms of, well, everything. I got excited when I saw bike that finally caught up with times. Turns out it's the CVO and you have to pay a lot extra for it, when what it competes against is everyone else's "normal" or regular bikes. So why not just pay less and go to the competitors.
Yeah, I was laughing at the people in awe of VVT HD bikes. I think the Japanese manufacturers have been doing that since the late 80s.
All Harley needs to do is make people feel good about their purchases. Overprice them, fine, but drop that price when you get a customer, it feels good to get a deal.
And buying a Harley is stressful, it should be easy.
If I had a dollar for every time I heard alarm bells go off because of Harley Davidson sales are down, I'd buy a new CVO.
When Times are hard buying a $50.00 T-shirt is not very justifiable . HD Corporate made the same Profits on 15% fewer units by raising their price to dealers by 15%. At what price will people refuse to buy new HD's?
When the older generation stops buying these bikes
@@Iniquityslasher There are going to be a lot of low mileage HD's for sale soon.
@@mikeskidmore6754thats what I’m banking on. Winter usually brings out a bunch of bikes for great prices because people stretch it beyond their means.
The perfect storm is here. The next 12 months will likely be a sales curve like 2008/2009.
@@carlbruhn1772 Yet Biden says the Economy is great. The Recessions and Depressions were engineered by the Bankers and the Federal Reserver.. They got a $2 Trillion Bail Out I think that was under Bush..
The Federal Reserve is supposed to Insure depositors money up to $200,000.00 The Constitution never gave the Federal Government the Power or Atheization to bail out Banks or Private Businesses.. They Extorted money from the Tax payers to Bail out GM and Chrysler.. All they really did is bail out the Unions.. They bailed out Yellow Freight the Biggest Unionized Trucking CO in the USA and they still went Bankrupt 3 years later.
A number of trucking Companies are going Bankrupt now .. Card Boar Bos sales are way say .. Card Board Boxes are a great indicator as to how the Economy is doing .
Many people are just trying to put food on their tables and making the bills . Buying an overpriced motorcycle is not an option! My 2022 Roadglide Limited is paid for and it’s staying that way! When Harley comes out with a flying CVO is when I’ll trade up! 😂
A local dealer is discounting baggers 5,000.00. You're still looking at over 30k OTD. Harleys are just to expensive.
Just like Indian bikes to then
Harley needs to introduce some ground breaking small bikes. They need to pull a page out of RE book. Quality beginner bike with classic character.
$1,000 surcharge! Not paying that on top of the already high price!
I have 9 Harleys, going to a harley dealer today makes me ill.
Personally, I believe the new CVO bikes were rushed out and were intended as 2024 models. Validation wasn't done completely with the software and glitches are common. They're selling tomorrow's bikes today for immediate earnings numbers, but tomorrow is coming for HD.
Agree, with that many major changes I always wait for the inevitable glitches to be discovered and corrected.
Thanks Ryan. We appreciate you doing this video as it gives a voice to all of us that perhaps Harley will hear. I own a 2018 Street Glide Special with 36K miles. It would be normal to consider trading at this time but the super PRICING for all new Harleys is simply out of reach. New Grand American Touring bikes are sweet and desirable but the motor company has just priced them out of reach. So we keep what we have already built. Harley isn't attracting the younger riders and that alone is dangerous. Harley has to keep us OLD GUYS too. I hope they're listening. I think H-D just has FAR too much overhead and they believe too much of their own press.
Great video,
I gotta say though, when I saw the price of the new sportster, I thought the price difference from the last model bike and the new one was astronomical. That used to be a great entry level bike. I have yet to see a new sportster on the road.
Maybe do something about the unrealistic costs of these bikes. Most people I know buying HD bikes are buying used.
I placed a deposit on 2021 Iron 1200 I told the dealer I need to sleep on it. Thanks to your video I have decided to stick with a metric manufacture.
Unfortunately I believe it is the price of the new models. I work at a DMV and see motorcycle titles come through left and right but 95% are used bikes under $20,000
I’m in a large HD dealership often and I’ve never seen so many new bikes. I have no idea what they’re going to do when the 24s start coming in. Love Harley, but new bike prices need to come down about 20% or they’re going to have trouble selling bikes.
The worst thing about the Harley is the dealerships. I mean in the USA not sure how about other regions. Because they charge premium price in motorcycle world their product cost same as Automobile market Bentley. But the experience you receive and the costumer service from these sales people same as you go to KIA or Chevy dealer. Harley bikes lovely bikes every manufactory is trying to be like them but cant stand the dealerships and sales people in there. With their cheap sales man skills and not understanding how to approach a costumer and provide great service. The Motorcycle is not must its a hobby and a toy. So when some one walk in at a dealer to spend around 30k on a toy and you receiver bunch of cheap crap from them not even get offered for a seat or cup of coffee. Its just a vibe not right over there and that's should be changed. They are expecting to be Luxury premium brand by charging costumers but not providing dealership to be premium and welcome costumers to spend that dollar and get a great vibe.
I try few dealerships every time I go it pisses me off leaving without a bike ending buying from a person with a better deal and experience.
Both of my bikes were bought from private individuals (2004 Low Rider and a 2005 XL1200C) for under 10K . Beautiful machines and each a blast to ride. ❤
Sales are down, but profits are up. This should have been part of your report.
Harley has been pricing them selves out for a while. Last new bike was a 2015 cvo street glide. People giving away 20-23 bikes on market place. Covid ballers ruined many industries.
I know for a fact from personal experience (my own and that of other individuals I know) that dropping the air-cooled Sportster line had a significant impact on purchasing decisions in terms of buying a HD or not buying a HD. I sincerely believe that bringing back the air-cooled Sportster line (with variable valve timing to meet Euro5 standards) would significantly bring the sales numbers back up. Other than VVT, keep the EVO as it was as much as possible - it was what air-cooled Sportsters were all about - the sound, the feel, and the looks. Take that away and it's no longer a real Sportster. Don't even talk to me about the new water-cooled so-called "Sportster" except for the fact that it proves my point . . . it's not at all selling well. Surprise, surprise.
Why would anyone (except those with plenty of excess $$) buy a new Harley when so many great used bikes are available at half the price? In fact, many used Harleys have add-ons that most buyers will be getting basically for free!
I know, exactly what I did last year and picked up a low mileage 14 SG all set up how I like and only had to change the seat and was good to go.
@@1motomanic I love the 103 engine on my 2011 Road King Classic, which I bought seven years ago. At 47k, still runs like a new bike (maybe better?).
I admit, I enjoy these videos about Harley. It’s like a death watch. At some point there will be no pulse.
The cost of living has nearly doubled since 2017. I can barely keep my bills paid. I’d LOVE to upgrade from my sportster 48 to a new FXLRS 117. But the dealership here on Maui wants $26k out the door! It’s hard to justify that purchase.
Don't justify it,just do it. It's hard to justify a new car or purchasing a home but people do it all the time.
Thanks for your thoughts. Shout out Hawaii!!
It is what it is, but dont grow old and unable to ride and say, I wish I had bought that bike while I could still ride !
After you get a new Harley you will end up spending another 4-5k to get to stage 1-2 to get decent power, also early M8’s are fraught with issues which have disallusioned many new buyers, the new 121 vvt should help out a little if there are no issues. I hope HD is around in 20 years but the economy has to cooperate. I’m on my 3rd hd and the progress on quality seems a too little too late.
We're looking forward to seeing the 121 VVT in other touring models.
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Its honestly a joke how much they want for a new bike
I live in Australia and will use my recent Pan Am purchase and sale as a classic example. The bike had multiple issues and i had to trade it for a huge loss as not even the dealers want them. The reasons are: engineering that has not been thought through! Harleys fix for faulty parts is throw another faulty part on it with no re-design. People know this and are steering clear of Harley. If Harley adopted a different philosophy, did some actual real world testing it may just change, however i think its to late!
As a newer rider, the HD dealership experience ruined it for me. Can’t get a price or without running credit or playing the old school 4-square numbers game. I felt like I was at a used car lot. Went to European and Japanese dealerships and the customer service couldn’t have been better. I can’t wait until all vehicles go direct from manufacturer to consumers and these dealerships are gone.
Hell yeah!!!!
Lots of metric dealers have used Harleys priced to move. Get the best of both worlds.
Too expensive, especially apparel. I ride a 22 SGS, and if I were to do it again, would have purchased the Road King. Dealer prices are through the roof. Aftermarket Harley Parts are too expensive for what they are, and honestly the bike comes with the bare minimum for such a steep price. Love HD, love the brand and culture, but this is probably my last HD purchase.
I just bought a new Harley Tri Glide Ultra, I previously owned 17 Harley most financed through HDFS. I have a 700 credit score have never been late on a payment with HDFS and the best interest rate they would give me was a 16.7%. I was able to finance through another company and purchase my trike. Do you think this is the reason sales are down? If I had not been able to finance at a lesser interest rate I would not be riding my new Trike. Motor close! I think it is a total scam to have to pay $40 for a Tee Shirt made in Indonesia just because it says Harley Davidson. Other tee shirts of the same quality sells and same quality graphics sells for $10 to $25 dollars. I think Harley needs to think more of the average buyer and stop sticking it to us. I love my Harley's but if things don't change my next bike will not be a Harley, because I won't be able to afford it. I really hope someone from Harley Davidson read this and starts to take action.
'
Wow, 16.7%! That's crazy.
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Here's another story not so much about pricing but about customer service. A friend was recently on a lone trip through the midwest riding an Indian Challenger. He of course got a flat tire around St. Louis. He called two separate Harley dealerships that were nearby and they both told him they couldn't/wouldn't help him because he wasn't riding a HD. They left him stranded on the side of the road! What is one of the biggest rules/codes of being a biker? You never leave a brother stranded on the side of the road! I don't care if you want to charge me extra because it was an Indian but FU HD for leaving a biker stranded! Yet another reason I switched to Indian a few years ago and will never look back!
Would love to get a new or more recent model. However between pricing and interest rates, that no longer is an option. I am considering either a rebuild or crate engine. 1/4 the price of a new Street Glide. Have a great day and thank you for all the information you provide
Here is my 2 cents worth,Harley dealerships have forgotten customer service,once your bike is a few years old,they don’t care about you. I have broken down far from home and finding help thur local dealers is hit or miss. I have been riding Hogs since 1980 and today it’s all corporate and less about a passion and lifestyle.2 of my buddies are now riding BMW and I see how different that world is. I doubt I will ever leave the H/D world,but my world is all local shops for bikes,parts and service .HOG doesn’t care about older bikes so my dollars go to shops that want my business
Plenty of Evo's and Twin cam's out there for $5000-$7500. Plenty of parts too. Make turning wrenches part of the experience
I agree with your points, but what I also believe part of the problem to be is HDs engineering issues that have plagued every generation of motorcycle. They never seem to be able to build a reliable top to bottom motorcycle, they are ALWAYS behind the curve when it comes to that and they got away with it in the past because of the die hard HD riders who honestly care more about the image and lifestyle then the actual performance and quality of the bike. Now with the younger demographic, they no longer enjoy that blind loyalty they once had and have to deal with a new breed of consumer who want the best bike for the money and doesn't care about the HD image or lifestyle. Then you add in the fact that Indian does cater to this new generation very well, BMW, Honda and a bunch of other companies are building tech filled baggers with premium components that are agile and fast, its pretty easy to see where HD has been losing ground not to mention the prices are ridiculous right now for what they offer. I have been riding HD for over 30 years now and I have never had a new Harley that I didn't do motor work on or suspension work on to improve the quality of the bike but on the other hand that was always part of the fun of owning a Harley.
When u talk about reliable bikes hands down bar none the v rod was the most reliable hd ever made they dropped the ball when they stopped making the v rod..do u agree??? the riding position could have been better ,Handel bars higher,extend the fork...but I like pro street chopper style bikes ride safe enjoy nuff said.
Not a VROD fan, but the motor was great. Always hoped they would make a bigger displacement to use in the Touring models as an option. Power, dependability and longevity. @@dwayneglover914
Harley has loss touch with its bikers for many years. Economy has hurt the motorcycle industry. The CEO for Harley has got to go! I’m a Harley owner rider since 2010. I have no confidence in their motorcycles anymore. I have three older Harley’s will keep to the end. I wish the best for Harley in the future. Great channel 👍
My wife and I both ride older Harley Davidsons and refuse to pay $75 - $100 for a shirt, let alone pay $40,000 for a Motorcycle. This is why people aren't buying. They need to start dropping prices to get more business.
Everyone has an opinion about why Harleys aren't selling but here's some basic facts.
When the economy worsens, luxury recreational items are first to see less sales and the entire American motorcycle industry has treated motorcycles as recreational vehicles as opposed to valid modes of transportation and that message pairs with society in products and parking or lack there of for motorcycles.
The dealership culture is worse than I've ever seen it, the saleskids are aggressive and want to make a sale right now even in spite of a customer who had just bought a new bike a month ago.
Their fashion line looks like ChopperDave's closet in 2006 and nothing about their accessory areas say "welcome Pan American riders"...
Bottom of the line HJC helmets rebranded doesn't say they take their "family's" comfort or quality of purchase seriously.
While I love the technological advances they have made on their motorcycle and I'm positive it brought in new riders, their dealership culture chases those new riders off.
The dealers only care about the guy that buys a new bike every year or so. Everyone else gets treated like a peasant.
@brendan_13 I buy new bikes every year or so but they will still try to sell me a bike every time I go to the dealers for accessories. It's overly aggressive and unwelcome.
You nailed it right on the head. "luxury recreational items". Since when did Harley Davidson become a "luxury recreational item"? Make simple, reliable and affordable motorcycles again. Make bikes for cruising and make bikes for zipping around corners. Make dirt bikes both enduro and adventure bikes. the one size fits all approach is a huge turn off for me, especially at the prices they expect.
@@theoldmanflynchmotovlog4846 yeah thats too much.
@@Lemmingadventures Harley-Davidson’s have always been expensive.
Good video, but I totally understand why harley is losing so many sales. So here's my story and I am sure there are a lot more like this. I got back into riding motorcycles in 2020, bought one used 19 streetbob and 3 more new harleys after that including a 20 roadking, 21 roadglide with a 128 se motor, a 22 pan america and a 22 cb500 honda and a new 22 bmw r18b in 23. The reason I went through so many bikes is cause we have so much wind up here so finally ended up with a 21 roadglide with a 128 motor in it. Now thats where all the shit started to happen. I live in northern alberta canada and the dealer support sucked and also harley canada support sucked. Engine was dead below 1500 rpm. Right from new with the SE 128 motor. Dealer blamed it on my exhaust, which was a 2 in 1 v&h and also the technical specialist for canada said the same thing. Long story short it couldn't get fixed by harley because the fuel map was the problem. So I had to get a aftermarket tuner and a dyno tune during the winter to make it run properly. Rode around with a bike that rode like shit all summer. Then it started to burn lots of oil and front rotors warped on it. spend over 110.000 dollar canadian in three years on new harleys and about 15 g on accesories on top of that. Harley dealer and company didn't give a shit on me walking out of there. Own a bmw r18b now and it's a fantastic bike by far superior over a harley. Options on ut you can't get on a harley at all and by far superior quality bike. For a lot less money. For anyone who disagrees warxh the bmw Berlin factory video. It's like wow lol. So if this is just my story there will be a lot more put there like that. Harley needs to stand behind their customers and the product which they don't. I wish someone from corporate harley read this cause I tried to talk to them about it but it doesn't go anywhere at all. Very disappointed about harley
I own several bikes including a BMW. The BMW groups are filled with previous HD owners who made the switch. Most say they should’ve done it sooner.
I agree, been bought a few harleys over the last few years and the dealers tried to stick it too me everytime, some of the most dishonest, scummy service/ negotiating I've ever experienced, shame on the brand
Funny I did the exact thing..very happy with the R18B Transcontinental 👍
BMW is also running very nice rebates on that model here in the states.
30k for a bike you can only enjoy in nice weather, plus parts, and upkeep. And the rates are sky high. Why would anyone in their right mind would want to pay for all that?
Maybe Harley should look at the profit they made and not focus on what they did not make as forecasted. These big corporations are so greedy they run themselves out of business.
to expensive is why they are not selling motorcycles
I think it’s a combination of bike prices shooting up, as is prices of everything else, and the economy going down the drain.
I sold my shovelhead 10 years ago. I looked at the new 2023 Road Glide Limited this year with the intent to purchase a CVO. I've been checking them out for the last 4 years but broke my back 3 years ago. I really like the 117 CVO but at 5'7 tall it puts me on my toes. I like the new VVT 121 CVO but they dont make it in a limited with the tour pak on it and at 60,000 out the door I can't see the value without all the bells and whistles, tour pak, leg fairings, heated seat with a back rest, etc. By the way you cant even put a back rest on the 121 CVO and with my back i need one. The regular Road Glide Limited only comes in Black, Grey, or the ugly two tone color and its at least 35,000 out the door if it has the hill hold and other electronics. The local dealers add 6,000 to 8,000 dollar markup over MSRP, thats more than I'm willing to pay for the bike. Then there's Harley financing, 1.99 percent but only on their small bikes. You can't get a good interest rate on their CVO'S or their Road Glide Limited line. I have the resources to pay cash but I'm not willing to pay their markups. That 121 CVO in whiskey neat looks nice but Harley can keep their bikes until they get bake to reality.
6% interest must be America only. Up here in Canada with great credit they offered me 19% on a new bike 😂
Harley has been taking advantage of our loyalty for decades, they are getting what they deserve.
Im getting closer to selling my Harley and going to the metric market.
Yup soon I will be riding my Snowmobile .
Nice Bocephus reference!
Hard to get excited about current line up, knowing a ton of new features are in the wings.
I’m with you, I’ll pull the trigger when the new stuff drops.
Informative video as usual. Thanks for your efforts.
Meanwhile, they launched the 2023 CVO Road Glide/ Street Glide in the summer and destroyed their end of year sales. People know what the direction is for the Touring Glides, and are waiting for the 2024MY announcement before they buy. Add in people that only see a Harley as a toy cant afford it when everything is expensive and their retirement portfolios are starting to deteriorate. They do make excellent touring bikes. Ill gladly walk into a dealer looking to move sitting inventory. SOMEONE needs to help give end of year Road Glide ST's a home. :)
i am talking to a local dealership at the moment in Sweden for a Road Glide ST new, they want 336K Swedish (32K usd). Is that a good deal being at the end of 2023? i am torn....i realy like that bike. :) (never owned a Harley)
I could tell you my story about why I abandoned Harley Davidson and Harley Davidson Financial, but I’ll spare you the sordid details. Suffice it to say that I will never again buy a motorcycle or any other product from any Harley Davidson dealership or their website.
Harley-Davidson has been out pricing their product for years. It is catching up to them finally. I am one of the idiots that spent a lot of m money to HD over the years. Not their fault but now it is. Not the economy, overpricing is the problem plus unions
it will pass when things swing back....... stay positive .
I have lots of thoughts here. First, I love the new CVOs and the RevMax bikes. Priority #1 for Harley in my opinion should be to trickle this new tech and features over to as many models as they can. I own the Sportster S and if I were younger, I would keep it and not look at anything else, but it can be brutal for long days in the saddle I have learned. I am looking for a bagger (most likely the Street Glide or even a Low Rider ST) due to recurring back issues now though. Like you, I may wait until those new features are on more affordable models.
Second, they absolutely have to abolish the practice of excessive markups at many dealerships. That’s becoming their reputation and younger riders have no interest in that and can’t afford it. They are one of the only brands I can think of that the price you see online is not the starting price you find when you get to the dealer. It looks goofy in comparison and they can and should do better.
Third, let go of the ancient minimum suspension travel and single sided brake designs. It’s almost 2024 and it’s time. Again, this stuff makes them stand out as outdated and out of touch. Nobody is excited about a bike with weak brakes and limited suspension these days.
Fourth, keep it coming with the creative paint schemes and more options per model to the degree they can. . It’s one of their strengths and a calling card and it is something they do better than others.
Fifth, make ST and sport models feel more sporty. Go even a bit further with the suspension improvements, add riser options, slightly better pegs and floor boards, even if costs a little more, leave less work to do. Don’t just slap the sport label on what is essentially a Special. Make it different.
Make it easier for struggling folks to get into bikes. A lot of Harley die hard fans don’t have a ton of money. Kids are interested but then see the price tags and get an entry level Triumph or Japanese bike instead. Think outside the box, create more affordable models, start some credit building programs using old used inventory with a nice upgrade aspect to it, etc. They are missing out on a a bunch of folks that don’t even set foot in their dealerships because of perceived pricing and markups and they need to change that. A number of folks would rather find these bikes used on Facebook Marketplace and start a rebuild from a beat up bike than work with Harley and they often don’t see any profit from that.
Ultimately, the economy is hitting everyone hard like you indicated but Harley has the potential to be so much stronger than they are right now. Just look at the modernizing and revamp efforts Suzuki is putting in right now after being looked at as being behind the times for years. Harley can do it too and it would be so much fun to see.
EVs won’t take off until the batteries are better period in my opinion.
Thank you for taking the time to shared your detailed thought. Much appreciated!
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@@RyanUrlacher no problem. I just came across your channel and I am really enjoying it by the way.
And also, I think the Polaris earnings reports said Indian sales are down mid-teens also. So it’s everyone.
I've only bought new once back in 81 for an FLHS which I still have and ride. Every other HD I've purchased before and after then has been used, I very much doubt I will ever buy new again.
Holy hell, only 50 units for a quarter? Just dump that stupid electric brand already.
HD has many faults that have got them to this point, internal and external. I do know one thing, IMO. HD should not get another taxpayer-financed government bailout like they got during the Reagan administration if things get really worse. HD, GM, and Chrysler have all been bailed out by us the taxpayer for their crappy management decisions. Let them close their doors if things continue on a downward sales spiral.
The age of the US rider is going up. The average age of a motorcyclist is around 50 years old. The younger generation is not getting into motorcycles either. This will not be good for future sales of expensive motorcycles.
I saw 1.9% on approved credit on 22 and 23 year model bikes. I went in and was declined with a 740 credit score. I realize my credit isn’t the best but I usually get what I want. I have a 2022 roadglide limited so it’s not like I don’t have an awesome bike. I wanted an Ultra Limited because this shark nose fairing sucks!!!! Guess I’ll keep my scooter, a lost sale for HD and my local dealer. I’m NOT paying 5.0% or higher interest.
So the older generation ( me ) are keeping their bikes mainly because they are paid for, some can still work on their own bikes and not pay $150 an hour for labor and we like the older classic designs, looks . Harley models have increased in price no end in a short period of time . Yes they are finally getting into the 21st century ( mainly because of Indian) but most of the old school don't want ( need ) all the bells and whistles ( riding modes) . Harley's biggest problem is even if the younger generation wants a Harley there's no way they can afford them . And most are not blue collar workers that grew up learning mechanical skills or even having any interests in riding because by now its probably been drilled into them by their parents or people in general that bikes are dangerous.👍🏴🇺🇲😎
Hey Ryan I like your channel I’ve been riding Harleys most of 50 years and the problem is we need a CEO in the division that actually rides Harleys loves Harleys and isn’t just a bean counter what do you think
Every dealership is jacking up prices. I work at a Toyota dealership and was looking at the new Corolla, base price was $35k and with the dealership warranty stuff, it went up to almost $50k. Ford F150's almost $100k, so it's not just Harley doing it. I got my first Harley 2 years ago, and it was used. I was like, I can finally afford a Harley. I did buy a warranty for the bike, but when it was up, they wanted another grand to extend that. Let's just say, it was out of my price range. I was looking at the Breakout, base price is at $21k, but with the dealership, the mark up is almost at $26k. Not to mention, Harley needs to stop charging extra for colors other than black.
From talking to non-Harley owners,price is the biggest issue
Hey Ryan , great video on the State of H-D and all of your research is appreciated... I personally hope, and I'm being selfish here, that you DON'T buy a new Street G S for awhile because I have learned so much from you and Lurch working on your 2014 as I have a 2015 SgS which is pretty much the same as your bike and I can relate to it. I don't have any plans on upgrading for many years, if at all, but I know I'll be out to lunch from learning anything more on your 14 when you buy a new bike. Pls keep up your great videos.
Rock on! thanks much
I live in Nebraska. The only Harley dealers left are in Lincoln and Omaha. Most if not all are owned by large car dealers. When they forced everyone to build mega properties the end started. It is amazing how Honda beat Harley in the long run. You can buy a Honda clear across the state from a Honda dealer. Down side of Honda is most dealers will not work on a bike older than 10 years.
I heard a service manager tell a customer they wouldn't work on 2005 or earlier bikes at Harley dealer.
I have a 2016 ultra limited low with 80k like to upgrade till I see the sticker price and how Harley strips down the premium badgers compared to my 2016 I guess I will try to get 100k on my hog🤪👍✌️
Price to damn high for 2 wheels. My 1991flhs just keeps on truck'n and no electronics headaches, AMEN 😊
Harley Lower your Prices Facts
Harley should replace the 883 with an entry level bike similar in price ($10,000) range. Another video said the lowest priced bike is now $13,000 or $13,500. With the increased entry level pricing and higher interest rates many potential buyers are priced out of the market. Many 883 owners later traded up.
Interesting to hear. I've always loved the older bikes. I ride a 03 Ultra classic. I'm 67 and only go to the local dealership if I want a hat! Another company that doesn't know their customer. They've turned the dealerships into Crackerbarrel, might as well offer lunch and dinner. The folks running Harley are not riding enthusiasts.
I'm 67 and ride a 99 Ultra. You are so right about the dealers. Don't know their customers or their bikes. I had the service manager argue with me about whether or not my wheel bearings were serviceable. I had just bought the spacers to set up my bearings at the parts counter. The owner is NOT an enthusiast but will happily sell you a $40,000 bike. The Longview Tx. shop went straight downhill when new owner took over. I wouldn't by a hat from them, lol.
I'll never buy a new Harley Davidson. Worst sale experience ever. They are grifters, I bought a new Lowrider ST they charged me way too much. I was then thinking of trading it in for a Roadglide ST and they offered me 16k on the trade in. I asked him why so low? but you just sold if for 25k only a couple months ago? He tells me that's just the way it is. F%$! Harley.
Harley‘s interest rates are absolutely out of their world. I know everybody’s gotta make money and I know they’re overhead got to be high but if you can’t sell bikes and you don’t have good customer service you’re not gonna sell things I drive two hours to have my bike looked atbecause my local dealers are terrible they have no customer service
I've known a few Harley owners over the years and they seem to keep their bikes for decades. It doesn't seem as if the turnover rate is high. HD needs younger people running the company to make it more appealing towards the current generation. It's fine to keep the large traditional Hogs, but they need to start making bikes for a new audience.
I love the videos. We need another documentary film. I really enjoyed watching the traveling films you and your team create. Any coming out?
Yup, in the next month a brand new documentary will release. Just finishing up a years edit on it. Stay tuned. You can check here anytime ==> www.lawabidingbiker.com/ride-now
Harley Davidson tanked on their own accord, they dug their own grave by treating their core customer with crap customer service and killing off brand loyality bikers. Price goudging at it's finest! Pathetic!
I went into a UK Harley dealer and ticket prices are around £20000, Triumph is around £13000, BSA £8000, says it all, a modern Korean Harley motorcycle for £20000, i dont think so! Electric Harley HaHaHa. Gen Z aint interested in Harleys.
Gen Z choose the low rider s cause it’s looks 10x better then the triumph.
I think they are doing well in terms of models, improvements, marketing, interaction with riders, etc ... they just need to lower the prices to sell more and absorb their overheads
Thanks much for your comments.
Or they could just reduce output
HD’s have kept the same pricing compared to the value of the dollar, actually going down compared to inflation on some models. The issue isn’t HD, it’s the fools destroying our economy(middle class). People want these bikes and would put one in the garage if the cost of living of 2018 track continued. Those that put Biden in the WH have a plan and making dependents of the masses is part of it.
The recession, inflation and election coming up next year has people holding on to their money, too many unknowns and interest rates will most likely increase over the next few months. H-D is an expensive entertainment item one where riders aren’t putting their money into right now. We can probably assume that boats and RVs and similar products have shrinking sales also.
It seems the entire powersports market is seeing something similar.
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Note, I love Harley Davidson but they are way over priced. I really don't believe they are worth as much as they cost. The value drops almost $8000.00 when you sign the loan agreement. Average resale price of a Harley is very low and definitely not as high as they use to be. Just like the car market the bikes are going to reposition like crazy because the average person can't afford them anymore.
I see hard times for HD, the economy is going to get rough. I plan on getting a great deal like the one dealerships dish out (low ball).
How much was the CEO's salary down?
Corporations gotta make money, I absolutely understand that. But I think the days of people willing to pay a massive premium for a brand are coming to an end. The math just doesn't add up anymore. I tend to by new stuff, but these bikes make it very hard to justify, especially with the dealer markups above MSRP. I have been looking harder and harder at Indian.
The motorcycles are just too expensive. The greed at HD is so pronounced. And this is what turns me away from a purchase.
Harley appears to be moving away from the Bike to Bike (CB) system. It is still popular and needs to be kept up to date. The SENA system with the WHIM is not as responsive. I run both and use the CB far more often than the SENA.
I picked up a Yamaha dresser back in June because I wanted the CB. It's a 2000 Yamaha Royal Star Venture and paid cash for it. The bike's original owner only rode it for 4 years before health complications set in and he couldn't. He put it in his garage for years hoping to get better. It has 8000 miles on it. Stereo, intercom, CB, cruise, and other options. I've converted all lights to LED and it'll be my long-distance rider taking over that chore from other bike with 83k on it.