So pretty much the entire European Imperialist Expansion Era aka the Age of Exploration. This video made me think about when the Europeans arrived in South Africa and was like hey we didn't see anybody so you know, dibs. Wait a minute the Federation is actually neo-colonialism. Quark and Garak were right.
The Defiant IS the first Starfleet vessel specifically built for war. While the other vessels you picture, the Constitution, Miranda and Ambassador classes were obviously built with combat in mind it was not their ONLY function. All of those ships also had extensive research facilities and their heavy armament was just a common sense precaution for vessels being sent into deep space and totally unknown territories where there was no telling what danger they might encounter. The Defiant, however, was built SPECIFICALLY for combat. ALL of its systems were built for power, maneuverability, firepower and durability in combat with NO research facilities on board, indeed no SPACE FOR dedicated research facilities. In that sense the Defiant IS Starfleet's first "warship," as in ship built EXCLUSIVELY for combat with no eye towards peaceful missions.
While just as non-canon as the Ares Class, there is a good quote from the game Star Trek: Birth of the Federation. "Our ships are not build to start wars, but to end them."
The Constitution class is totally not a warship but can still wipe out an entire planet's surface from orbit... From an outsider's perspective that's a warship, not a science and exploration vessel. Look at it this way, you're home at night, binge watching some Star Trek on TV and a van with a M134 minigun on the roof pulls up outside. The side of the van says it's with the power company and the van crew says they're just inspecting the lines, but you're on your porch wondering why the hell the power company needs such a large, powerful gun on their service van and they say "Well, it's just in case. We go to some rough neighborhoods sometimes." That's close to how planets that aren't in the Federation probably feel when one of Starfleet's "not warships" slide into orbit or when one of these "science" ships that are armed to the teeth get too close to their space.
Came here from the video on Exkheart’s channel. Grew up on the original Star Treck and Star Wars movies as well as TNG. Nice to find a place to sink my teeth into Star Trek lore.
Sweet! Welcome! :) Motto of the channel is 'its a conversation'.. So you're welcome to take a look and give me your opinions. As with anything, my ideas and thoughts change over time - so if you get to the older videos and see something that doesn't gel with current stuff, it's probably that. Always up for a conversation as well.
U can't treat discovery as cannon. Star trek cannon is my forte and I've really tried to find a way to include discovery. The non Enterprise ships wearing Enterprise insignias, holodeck tech, no Klingon eugenics, ship tech, tone, section 31, sections 31's badge, Pike serving on discovery, no linking discovery missions to anything cannon, just so much I can't justify. Which is why it's so disconnected from trekkies
the only three ways discovery is canon. 1. kelvin timeline 2. riker making another revisionist holo-novel 3. something something *insert future person* goes to the past to fix. thus it never happened
@@cmdraftbrn I nominate myself to travel back in time and fix it so that Discovery never happened...anybody got a time machine or a spare Klingon Bird of Prey that I can slingshot round the sun?
Lore, I must disagree. The only Colony in the Gamma Quadrant was New Bajor colony and where it was located was well outside Dominion Space. As to Starfleet ships, the Dominion could have sent a single envoy to enquire about the ships in their space but chose to be confrontational instead.
@@LoreReloaded Idron was a great distance from Dominion Space, nearly 4 light years or more. New Bajor was well within that unclaimed space. The Dominion wanted to keep the UFP only in the Alpha Quadrant.
As I said in another comment, you can talk technicality all you want. See what would happen if Iran tried to plant a colony just outside the US coastal waters that were "technically" unclaimed. You don't have to make much of a guess. We almost all got nuked because of the Cuban missile crisis and no one was doing anything technically illegal there. Just messing in the backyard of a superpower that doesn't want you there.
@@jameskennedy8030 The idea of this argument is to try, for once, to look at the situation from the other side and see if it looks as good when you don't consider yourselves the "good guy" and assume good faith. The Dominion find that a superpower has suddenly appeared in their part of the Galaxy (Federation, Bajor. Same thing. Bajor was thinking of joining the Federation Bajor colony might as well be Federation colony. Would probably be soon). You tolerate the situation for so long but then decide enough is enough. As if to prove that this is a foothold, the Federation sends though its most powerful vessel. You tell them to get the hell out of your side of the Galaxy, you're arrogantly told there's no stopping the invasion: TALAK'TALAN: Coming through the anomaly is interference enough. Unless you wish to continue to offend the Dominion, I suggest you stay on your side of the galaxy. DAX: You're making a mistake if you think that detaining Commander Sisko will stop us from "exploring" the Gamma Quadrant.
In the Federation’s defense, they had heard nothing more than whispers of the Dominion for like two years after the discovery of the wormhole. It’s not like they had any kind of obvious claim to that territory.
We don't know that the space that was colonized by those in the Alpha quadrant was in fact Dominion space. Only that the Dominion claimed it was, this leads me to believe that they only made this claimed to deny the alpha quadrant powers that space. My argument is further supported by the Dominion statement that all of the Gamma quadrant was their territory, which is something we know is not true.
Some have brought that up, and its a fair point. The Gamma Quadrant is massive so claiming it all is somewhat .. silly as well. But again, yea - it took about a season or two for the dominion to make themselves known after the wormhole.. which is sketchy
Here's the thing about the Dominion, they're smart. They wouldn't bother to claim all territory that they see only those that strategically important. You kind see that in the show, some of the existing Gamma quadrant powers were effectively puppet states. They were similar to what the Cardassians became, they were allowed to run themselves until/unless they was given a direct directive from the Dominion. The question now is are those puppet states territory considered Dominion space? Personally I don't think it was, simply for no other reason then those states weren't important enough. I think a decent analogy would be between State and Federal land in the US, and yes I know the flaw in that analogy is that both are still considered US territory but you get the idea.
@@LoreReloaded Weren't there a couple planets that the federation visited, and had episodes on, in the gama quadrant that were not under Dominion control? That pretty much seals the deal in my mind, regardless of what they say.
Starfleet had been able to throw its weight around for so long without real consequences, no wonder they were completely blindsided by the kick to the groin that was the Dominion.
yeah, Ramirez's speech does appear to have gotten lost somewhere. As non-Cannon, as it was, it is on point of what Starfleet 'claims' to be. We are facing an enemy, that is consumed and committed to our total destruction. An enemy that demands to be fought, and we will fight! But I say to you our greatest challenge, is not the might of a Klingon fleet. The greatest challenge lying before us, is to do what must be done, without undoing the dream of the Federation. For myself, I have but one fear, Destroying the dream of the Federation. Compared to such a loss, I DO NOT FEAR THE KLINGON EMPIRE! Starfleet apparently forgot the "without undoing the dream of the Federation." bit, lol. Great vid Lore. B) (edit) P.S. I think like so many other things, the political stance of Starfleet depends on the needs of the story plot of each episode rather than a grander scope of Trek.
Obi-Dan- Kenobi I'm a Gelato dispenser enthusiast, lol. Early Patreon access, in the words of Valen "there are no coincidences". Thanks, Lore, and agreed on the 'speed of plot' angle. Starfleet is all over the political landscape from episode to episode.
The Dominion does not own the entire Gamma Quadrant. The planets colonized by the Alpha powers were quite a distance from their border, which we know exists from the episode "In Purgatory's Shadow." It wouldn't have stayed that way of course due to there unlimited expansion policies but current Dominion space is a well established area. The Domionion's demand that all Alpha powers stop entry into the Gamma Quadrant has no basis beyond the "We don't like it" phase and is like listening to a petulant child. So yeah fuck the Domion. They were coming no matter what and didn't like the fact that the wormhole threw a wrench into their long term plans.
All I will say is, watch SFDebris's opinions on the subject in his video on the episode ''The Jem'Hadar'' as he goes into great detail on the subject. To summarize briefly, there was nothing at all that said that the wormhole was in Dominion space despite their claims to the contrary, so much so that the Dominion were considered to be a myth for the first two seasons with only vague hints of some far off menace that was threatening the Gamma Quadrant. They very much have a school bully attitude towards where their space is: ''it exists, therefore its mine.'' And secondly, in hindsight, they were never going to honour any agreement because the Founders HATE solids. They want to enslave or kill every last one of us. Any Starfleet admiral returning from a meeting with the Founders would have been the equivalent of Neville Chamberlain waving his piece of paper after talks with Hitler. War was inevitable.
@clearspira Case closed! In my eyes the Dominion weren't that far off from the "Borg". If they see or have solid evidence of an foreign organization regardless if it's in there territory or not they will investigate them and either destroy or enslave said foreign organization because they ( Dominion and/or Borg) know they have the power to do so.
@@Dave102693 Agreed, I think the Dominion would get there ass handed to them and be forced to join up with Federation. Making what Q did the episode "Q Who" come to full circle, that without him the Federation wouldn't be as effective resisting the Borg or any hostile foreign organization.
Question: Was the U.S.S. Odyssey upgraded/retrofitted/refitted (insert minor refit joke here) for combat? Much less Dominion War upgrades? In future iterations the Galaxy class is much more formidable. However the Odyssey didn't know what they were getting into. They were explorers first, soldiers second. The Odyssey was the pride of Starfleet maybe the Alpha Quadrant. And their arrogance thought they could take on anything. But the wing of Jemhadar attack ships wanted to send the message that their most powerful ship wasn't enough to stop them.
Your compilation of events reminds me of the classic episode with the first contact with the Gorn. Unknowingly (maybe arrogantly) the Federation funded a colony in Gorn space. The Gorn destroy the colony which leads to a conflict between the Gorn ship and the Enterprise. BTW, why I said arrogantly. There is a Valerian and Laureline comic where natives return to a planet the humans have settled on. Thanks to a law of some forsight, the natives have to be allowed back onto their planet. The thing is, the natives had been gone for centuries, because they are very long lived and here comes the arrogant part back. The Federation seems not to see that their standards might differ from someone else's. For example, say you have a very careful species that discussed a new colony for a century before moving in. Let's say the Federation found the system as well as decades-old traces of visitors, but they went away, so the planet is free. Their colony has been there for a few years and suddenly a massive fleet appears. The aliens had not just prepared a colony ship, but dozens and brought the infrastructure and everything the colonists would need, including a defense fleet and a system-wide defense system. And what if the aliens don't want to share the planet? What if they want decades of non-personal exchanges before they even make personal contact? Maybe it's because they want to make sure that no species in the Federationcarries a disease they re not ready for? Essentially the Federation ruined the planet for them just by being there and they now have to look what to do with their colony fleet. Just because the Federation is impatient or aggogantly assumes that everyone has the same standards as they have. And we are back at Star Trek's biggest problem. World building.
"The Federation seems not to see that their standards might differ from someone else's." And then we come to the problem of whose standards to adhere to in a situation where two parties have different standards.
You can say the same about the Earth Alliance in Babylon 5. A democratic utopia (minus the psi-corps). Expansion of their influence and victories on behalf of other races boosted their confidence. But then everything changed when the -Fire- Minbari Federation attacked.
The whole Earth -Minbari war was due to a miscommunication and or misstake. Minbari ships approached with gunports open as a sign of respect and earth alliance took it as they were going to open fire on them and fired first. OOOPPPSSS
The problem is that capturing Sisko isn't all the Dominion had done when the Odyssey left. They'd slaughtered a Bajoran colony and destroyed a number of ships. And considering that Starfleet didn't even know the Dominion existed, they really don't have a leg to stand on. The Odyssey wasn't on an attack mission, they specifically said they were there to investigate and recover hostages. And in that encounter the Dominion made it clear they weren't going to leave the Alpha Quadrant alone
An interesting what if…Sisko never opened the wormhole so no Dominion, what would have happened? [WARNING ESSAY LENGTH] Either Sisko didn't find the wormhole ect, he didn't go to Bajor, or Locutus took an extra shot at the Saratoga to make sure. Another option is Starfleet was able to collapse the wormhole once the realized how big a threat they were facing. The Dominion was an 'out of context' problem, it could not be foreseen and be accounted for in any plans - besides the generic 'have a big tough military', and take advantage of the fact that you have telepathic species that could detect any infiltrators if you only used them extensively for intelligence - Betazoids could not read the minds of changlings, which was a clue that they were changlings, and as for the Vorta… So what would have happened? The Marquis continue to bleed the Cardassians, who respond with more overt and bloodthirsty reprisals against Federation CITIZENS. Bajor goes all in with the Federation and a lot of former Bajorian militia try out for Starfleet. Bajor tries political maneuvering within the Federation to give more support for the colonists. Cardassians would hit non Marquis Federation citizens either by accident, "arranged" accident (fed false Intel by Section 31 or even Marquis) or just out of frustration. And then things get interesting. Bajor can request Starfleet ships be stationed there, and what if a powerful Galaxy class ship, (say the Odyssey?) was put on guard duty. Bajor could get it's defense fleet re equiped by Starfleet as well. So there's a build up of Starfleet near the DMZ and since there are no other threatening powers (except the Romulan cold war, and a future Borg attack) Starfleet can afford to concentrate forces. Note thanks to Wolf 359, Starfleet does have some new ship types, besides the mothballed Defiant, that are more combat orientated, not that it's really needed against Cardassians. So what is the endgame, and is it according to Section 31's plan? Section 31 would like to see Starfleet get tougher, but they are dedicated to protecting the ideals of the Federation as well, it's just that they don't follow them themselves. As Sloan said to Bashir, he does what he does so good people like Julian could contribute to the Federation. They would be against the idea of a military coup like what almost happened in 'Paradise Lost', but a war against a belligerent foe that didn't (yet) have the power to overwhelm the Federation would help stiffen the military. A more muscular Federation, but with the same "benevolent" ideology and less border issues. Also there was the long term risk that Cardassia may one day get their hands on superior weapons technology from a alien race, or just ally themselves with other factions (well they did, the Dominion). A Romulan, Cardassian, Breen alliance would be a threat, even without the knowledge that the Breen had energy dampening weapons, [and in such a war that one Klingon ship might not have made that modification, and how the hell do you run a covert opp against the Breen to steal a ship? So ironically the Dominion may have prevented the Breen from winning any future war against a alpha quadrant power]. So taking out Cardassia makes long term strategic sense, and furthermore it could cement the alliance with the Klingons, invite them to the Federation Cardassian war 2 (This time we roll into Bagdad, oops, Cardassia prime). The Klingons would be thrilled, a good war is good for internal stability, gives their hotheads and agitators something to do, and keeps them fighting fit. Also the clear thinkers would know that fighting side by side with the Federation would help the Empire in the long term as it would ease tensions and make other powers think that if you messed with the Empire, you messed with the Federation. Besides it would make the obvious Romulan plans to split the alliance much more difficult. So the Empire is more stable and has better relations with (and respects as warriors) the Federation. That would be a long term goal of Section 31, ensuring that the Klingon Empire is a stable reliable ally. And besides, humans, being human - after fighting side by side with the Klingons, there would be a bunch of Klingon Human hybrids born soon after. That may have been be the long term strategic plan of Section 31, then the Federation absorbs Cardassia, similar to post WW2 Japan or West Germany. If such a scenario did occur (in another quantum reality) what would be the long term outcome? Voyager would probably return the same, depending on Admiral Janeway's actions in non post Dominion war Federation (The knowledge of the war, sent through the relay, didn't have that much influence) so Starfleet gets a power up courtesy of Voyager. Section 31 still probably had compromised Romulan intelligence, Shinzon never becomes a war hero and gets control of the Scimitar (and maybe it was never developed), Bashir is never approached to join Section 31 because he's never suspected of being a Dominion agent, so Section 31 stays even more hidden. Then the Federation keeps expanding, and eventually meets the Dominion, in maybe a century or two. And by that time Starfleet is much more advanced and much bigger (with a lot of species, some of which may have very useful abilities), while the Dominion is relatively static, so the Dominion would lose any conflict as their comparatively less advanced ships get Instagibbed. Anti founder tech would be much more likely as just the higher tech level, and better understanding of Odo's physiology from medical studies over the years (plus more telepaths). Plus the Dominion wouldn't even have the tech to travel to the alpha quadrant and the Federation would have heard of them as they slowly approached, not turned up in the middle of their territory due to a wormhole. So the Dominion war is just a one sided skirmish, and the history books tell of the Marquis as freedom fighters, to the slight discomfort of Cardassian (and quasi Cardassian) Starfleet personnel.
You know this actually isn't a bad alternate history path. Now are there issues? Of course, but nonetheless its a well-written stepping stone for someone to start from.
Interesting alt history. However Cardassia no longer being a power, and Klingons presumably taking some of their territory would bring them into conflict with the Breen Confederacy. Now the big question is do the Breen form an alliance with the Romulans? If that happens the entire Alpha Quadrant would likely end up at war with itself. However if they didn’t Ally with the Romulans, or an alliance was declined the Klingon empire would eventually conquer the Breen Confederacy. This puts the strong neutral powers within and near federation space (like the tholians) in a hard place... join the federation, or get conquered by or at least go to war with the Klingons or even the Romulans eventually and suffer the same fate as the Breen. In my view these strong neutral powers would then join the federation, as its the lesser of the evils. This would give the federation a huge boost technologically, potentially in manpower though I suspect most species that joined the federation out of necessity wouldn’t join star fleet, more resources and more defensive positions. The Federation would truly become a powerhouse in such a scenario. However these powers that do join the federation may leave once the threat is over, however by that point their knowledge, technology, and likely some of their member species would remain a part of the federation so it wouldn’t matter much even if they left. Their leaving could even strengthen the bond of the rest of the federation as any group that did leave would then be vulnerable to being conquered by another group that left.
It's a different culture with different ways. Their's is to answer transgression with force. That tells you that a show of force is going to be viewed as a possible declaration of war. They made their feelings clear on the matter of entering or getting too close to their territory. The federation should have kept trying to contact them. Each situation Lore described in this video is further proof that regardless what the Federation says. They disregard the concerns and wishes of the Dominion. I think you reading of the situation is a solid one Lore.
I actually agree with you on this one. Even the Romulans said that Benjamin L. Sisko was, quote; "The man who started the war with the Dominion". As a Starfleet Captain who not only was in command of the Alpha Quadrant space station on the opposite end of the wormhole from the Dominion, but of the USS Defiant as well, Sisko's actions, sanctioned by Starfleet Command and the Federation Council or otherwise, instigated the war with the Dominion, bringing on a war that it was NOT ready for in the slightest degree.
Much agreed. Great perspective. So federation warships....just one(two)...well three, Sao Paulo, defiant and Prometheus. All other ships, although able to lay waste to the surface of a planet, are for defensive purposes only. Yep it is, I know....but it is. Lol
Defiant intrepid Prometheus sovereign Akira steamrunner nova was all apart of starfleets new design ethos.... arm Ships to the teeth 🦷 far more than before starfleet was never w military organisation but it became one first and everything els second good in my opinion
I held off on watching this until I finished DS9, and now that it’s done, I have to say that I wholeheartedly agree with you. Frankly, other than the obvious mustache-twirling evil, I could never understand why the Dominion were the “bad guys”. For all of Seasons 3 through 5, I was generally appalled by the way the Federation violated Dominion space. Not only had they been told that their aggressive expansion was seen as a threat, the Founders themselves had shared the reason for their fear. The Federation were like people who aggravate antisocial cats and then get angry when they’re scratched/bitten. They should know better. In that light, the Federation’s behavior was a blatant violation of the Prime Directive. The Cardassins, Klingons, and Romulans were all engaged in some or all of the same behaviors as the Dominion. If you squint at it, the overwhelming warrior culture of the Klingons even shares qualities with the the slave soldier culture of the Jem’Hadar. The Federation was perfectly happy to leave all of THEM alone. Lastly, while the Dominion was poised to seize the Alpha Quadrant, Section 31 set a genocide into motion two years before war officially broke out ... a Starfleet was perfectly happy to let it keep going once they knew. If the Founders had known about the virus and declared war on those grounds, there would be barely any room left to call the Federation good guys. I loved DS9. It stands as my favorite Star Trek series. I just wish the writers had put proper effort into justifying the conflict rather than having everyone TALK about the evils of the Dominion and giving the Founders/Jem’Hadar some kick-the-dog moments every season. Thanks for putting up the perfect video where I could blow off that steam.
I agree with you, and the last time we talked we was on different sides. And the only reason why the federation kept going was because they wanted the newest member of it, the bajorians to be a productive member and not a "sucking resources" one.
Yo, I'm a fairly new Star trek fan and I'm loving you content, keep it up my guy. Oh and question, I just finished the next generation, where should I go next?
really good video, and got to admit i was a little on the dominion side [prior, the war], given how there sovereign territory was encroached by star fleet- this is why starfleet always needs a vulcan as the prime advisor
Good points in the video about Starfleet and the federation actions per to the dominion first battle. However, in the early episodes of season 3 of DS9 we learned. The founders already had intent to invade the federation to rule over them with their authoritarian rule. Plus the changelings infiltrated the federation and other alpha quadrant powers to destabilize them for a future invasion. The dominion already made up its mind to conquer the federation long before the first battle.
You make some good points. A counter argument stating the Dominion was known (at least by report) to be aggressive and brutal wouldn't negate your point that Starfleet's actions were reckless and aggressive at best.
i remember watching star ship down and thinking wth are they doing out there conducting illegal activity like that that,but then i also remember saying the same thing when i saw the Vorta messing around with the orions.
The federation was democracy lite.... they Usurp power from sovereign planets and everyone has to conform to their rules..... they say you’ll be better in the federation if you join us... then slowly take you over..... I would have joined the maquis. I would have wanted nothing to do with them. The federation council was a few people from each planet like that’s a representation of an entire planet. I’d love to have seen a story ark of member worlds braking off from them and making their own alternative alliance..... wait that’s Star Wars episode 2 and 3 lol 😂 but still I hated this rosy happy clappy federation and their superior morality when they where nothing of the sort.
@@Marcus51090 You're somewhat explaining Brexit and why we voted out of the E.U. (let's not get political folks, I'm only using his explanation as an analogy). How can a council of the few represent the wishes of the millions (or billions in star trek), without controversy? There has to be a strong leadership in place who can take action when/if needed, unlike what the S.W.U had but then you're getting into an authoritarian regime which you're trying to avoid so finding the balance is hard
War... Yes... The incidents before, the manipulated war with Klingons? Martok changeling? Sisko started the real war with the minefield... Dominion worked hard to get as much as possible in "incidents".
I'm sure you've heard this before possibly thought it but there's a difference designing a ship for war from designing a ship for exploration that can still kick your ass a battle if it needs to. And from a certain point of view those two could be the same thing
I say the Dominion more then the federation in this. Hell capturing the New Bajor colony and bring over a map in their space Starfleet would have been reasonable. the heavy handness of the Dominion hurt them in the end.
*QUESTION..... was the Space surrounding the worm hole in the gamma Quadrant in dominion space? I don’t think it was...... I always wandered why the federation didn’t claim the space on both sides of the wormhole* Mining a worm hole isn’t going to go down well is it..... the dominion was going to strike eventually..... I totally agree the federation had just cause to start a war themselves..... Also the defiant “first” warship comment..... I think they meant first warship that’s ONLY a warship it has nothing els other than fighting, the Cony,ambassador, Miranda etc all had other rolls. But in truth I’ve always been extremely critical of the federation as a thing..... I don’t like them I wouldn’t want anything to do with them. They are the European Union of the galaxy. Pitty they didn’t have a scarif style shield gate at the mouth of the wormhole lol 😂 good luck enemy ships
That's an interesting proposition. The Federation could have come back and claimed that the wormhole was basically the federations all the way around and for them to stay out. They could use that as a way to get a foothold in - or try atleast. The Dominion was always going to try a take over.. So it mattered little. Starfleet just helped with the justification a bit.
Lore Reloaded I’ll also add that caption Sisko said “she’s a warship that’s got one roll to fight” so why did starfleet send that ship to study a miniaturising anomaly in the episode “a little ship” I dunno who was running starfleet but I’ve always thought they where all over the place Also..... the second starfleet ordered the mining of the wormhole they should have mobilised their fleet and the Klingon fleet TO THE WORMHOLE ergo DS9 before the mining started... lol not two days later. and holding onto DS9 they would have a staging ground to strike into cardy space at the start of the war.... containing them within their borders..... why they let it fall and thought that was a good idea was madness...... Edit..... I’d love to see a video of yours that discusses federation battle tactics etc
@@LoreReloaded The issue with that is that the Wormhole was in Bajoran space and Bajor at that time was not a Federation member, technically speaking the Federation could not claim the Alpha side as theirs. That subsequently makes trying to claim space that you can only get to through the space of another, slightly unstable government would not be a sound idea. Now as to the response to the Jem'hadar arriving on DS9, saying they have destroyed these ships and colony of you and your Allies and taken a Command level officer captive. They also claim to be something you have heard about as effectively the 'boogy man' of the Gamma Quadrant. You would not take them at their word, now sending the Oddessy was done as it was the nearest Starfleet ship, it was already on its way to DS9 when the Jem'hadar showed up. Lastly they had been going back and forth through the Wormhole for some time by that point, the dominion would have known about them and could have (at least in the Federations view) initiated peaceful contact long before they made any incursions to their space. Instead you get what effectivly could be considered an act of war with the complete extermination of a civilian colony and ships. As to Starfleets more general behaviour, as we see from the attempted coup by some Starfleet officers there is a sharp divide in Starfleet about how it should be acting, this likely started with the Borg first contact and was exacerbated by the war with the Cardassians and the following peace treaty and subsequent formation of the Marque. One the one side you have those who think Starfleet should be nothing but a scientific and exploratory organisation and that everything can be resolved through diplomacy. On the other side there are those who think Starfleet needs to accept that fact that for all intents and purposes it is the Federations military and they need a conflict where the opponent is a real threat to the combined might of both them and the Klingon's to push that. So there were likely several people who looked at the threat of the Dominion after the first contact and thought, 'Yes thats what we need', after all they demonstrated the the Federations shields, something that it was use to being superior to its other rivals were useless against them.
The question about the border and the location of the wormhole isn't an issue, the border could be 40 lgt yrs away. With the show, they regularly make trips to Earth and Q'onoS as being short road trips, like popping in for a few short days. Going by this the federation could have been 100's of lgt yrs into the gamma quadrant, they were dealing with Dominion vassal states.
My main argument against this "did the federation instigate the war" argument is the problem of the 2 years between the discovery of the worm hole and the actions taken by the Dominion against the Federation. Granted, one could argue that those 2 years were spent gathering information about the alpha quadrent and its respective powers, but my main irk about that is is that it took the Ferengi about a year and a half to confirm that the Dominion was indeed a real entity yet they didn't possess any territory within the gamma quadrent (this is also a criticism of the other alpha quadrent powers ability to gather information as although the other powers were up for colonisation and exploration it appears to me that the Ferengi were the only power putting pieces of the gamma quadent puzzle together). Meanwhile the Dominion, whose space ended before the wormhole and whome you expect to have a greater understanding on the goings on within their sector of space only reacted after 2 years even though its more than likley that the dominion knew about the alphaquadrent powers months after they stated exploring the gamma quadrent. During those first initial months of the gamma quadrent exploration the Dominion could have sent an envoy to DS9 to state that "this" territory was theirs. Instead they waited 2 years, allowed a couple of collonies to be established and then destroyed them, along with a few star ships, just to make a point. Going back to the Discovery reference of how the Vulcans fired on every Klingon ship they met, that was only after their first attempt at peacfull contact failed. In this situation the dominion offered the alphaquadrent powers no first peaccfull attempt (that we know of... unless it was said to the bajorans of new bajor who may have some misgivings about surrendering their world to a major military power), instead opting for the nuclear option (which was made even worse by the fact that the dominion were also using this chaos to plant a Vorta spy on DS9, which of course only failed due to the inginuity and pure guenius which is the Ferengi). Now the Federation sending in the USS Odyssey (plus runabouts) to rescue captain Sisko made sense. Afterall, by this point the Dominion had already sent one of their warships into Bajoran space and dropped off a list of dead bajoran colonists onto DS9, so the Federation acted in kind, with the only difference being that the space immediatly beyond the opening of the wormhole on the gamman quadrent side of was not Dominion space, and any claim by the dominion otherwise was in the attempt to get their spy into the alpha quadrent. Now does the Federation have any cause to be blamed here. Yes. Although after the Borg incursion, coupled with the rising tensions with the Romulans, Starfleet saw a rise in its millitrisation to levels equivalent, at least, to its 23rd century incarnation (which was in my opinion less a statement of "lets be a millitary now", but more a realisation that as Starfleet moved further into the unknown it was encountering greater dangers once more) the federation council appears to have activly ignored these recent dangers and asked that starfleet, now more knowledgable of the dangers beyond their borders, act in a similar fashion = ignore the tensions along the cardassian borders, just maintain the treaty. The Romulans want to reunify with the Vulcans, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. A wormhole to the gamma quadrent, well lets just stumble into it and colonise staight away, forgoing any long term exploratory and scientific expeditions. The Fedetation seems to have wanted to return to the peacful Detente ideologies of season1 TNG, despite the fact that they no longer lived in that galaxy.
How is it different? Colonization is not an act of aggression unless you're told you're not wanted. The Dominion initiated hostilities so did the Klingons. The Dominion responding militarily is unwarranted
So, are you going to make more episodes of your star trek show? First one was super cool, and i can't wait to see how Picard would restore federation unity.
THANK YOU! In my eyes, the Federation started the Dominion war, they violate territory, and when they get their asses kicked out of Dominion space- and have one of their officers captured, they send in a half mile long starship... If I was the Dominion squadron commander, I'd fire first, ask questions later, for all they know that ship was for for invasions... Than after that, the Dominion move in, not to attack the Federation- but to help the Cardassian Union, what the hell is wrong with helping a power which was getting every man, woman and child slaughtered by the Klingons. And- as the Dominion is sending in ships to reinforce the Cardassians- The Federation decide to open negotiations, and border agreements... NOPE! They decide to F*cking mine the wormhole... This kind of reminds me of the Cuban missile crisis, Cuba being the Cardassians, who ask for help of the Soviet Union ( The Dominion ), and the US ( Federation ) not liking the fact of a power getting even with it decides to blockade Cuba... Yeah- not the same circumstances, hell they couldn't be much different, but it has some similarities, one power asks for help of another power, and the other does not like that. Maybe the Dominion was going to invade the Federation, but that does not justify what the Feds did, they effectively started the war.
That’s the reason I never understood the admiration for deep space nine. If this were tng Star Trek, the federation would have apologised, signed a treaty and left the gamma quadrant. The UFP were known for there attempt to obtain keep peace at all costs.
You make some good points. I do believe that the Federation didn't really do much to prevent the war, maybe even go as far as helped spark it. Of course that doesn't excuse the things the Dominion did.
Good points I never thought in those terms before, I question if the writers were intending to make the federation aggressor's or just failed in making the federation victims of an aggressor.
Me seeing DS9: Blow up the damn wormhole!!! Blow the darn thing !! Every quadrant in the galaxy has at least 70.000.000.000 stars!! to hell with DS9, the bajoran's and their dreams of being relevant!! the entire federation, the quadrant at a whole it's at risk!!
Defiant was the first federation ship built solely for war. The other ships there may be warships, but it's not their only purpose. The Defiant doesn't has science stations, holo-decks, or any other creature comforts.
I want too know are you officially taking the position that having a fleet of science and exploration ships that can fight when needed is better than doing exploration with a fleet of dedicated war ships? Is not scaring the unknown enemy into war actually saving more lives than you lose when a ship with civilians on board gets blown up?
To me, we have a classic example of a preventive hegemonic war, however with the complication that both powers here consider themselves the hegemon. As background information: hegemonic war refers to a conflict between a hegemon, or largest/dominating power, and an uprising power threatening the hegemon's status. Often, the hegemon will try to contain their opponent and slow their rise, for example by imposing policies or sanctions on them or even engaging in preventive war before the rising power's might exceeds that of the hegemon. Here, of course, we have the sudden connection of two formerly distinct places with their own hegemons. Both see the other as a threat, both consider themselves the only legitimate power in their territory and believe they also have the right to colonize the other's space. They are both trying to destroy or at least significantly weaken the other, just with different measures. Starfleet acts more sublime, by colonizing empty planets in Dominion space or secretly aiding other governments with actions that negatively affect their enemy. The Dominion, on the other hand, more aggressively retaliates, which not only weakens Starfleet's power due to the destruction of ships but also serves as deterrence. The original understanding of the hegemonic stability theory and hegemonic wars as a central part of it mentions that the ultimate goal of a hegemonic conflict is to find an agreement on who holds more power, that is on who should be the next hegemon. These wars are often large-scale, involve other powers taking sides and end with severe destruction and shifts in the distribution of power. The Dominion War ticks all these boxes. Long story short: the problem is that both powers were unsure about the might of their opponent, tried to contain each other, and ultimately engaged in conflict to sort their disagreement. Military conflict might have been avoidable, but for both sides to provoke hostile interactions was the logical step. (Now I feel like I started college to debate fictional politics on UA-cam. Oh well.)
It's interesting to note that when we FINALLY encounter a representative of the Dominion, we get the following bit of dialogue: "Commander Sisko will serve as an example of what happens to anyone who interferes with the Dominion." "What kind of interference are you talking about?" "Coming through the Anomaly is interference enough. Unless you wish to continue to offend the Dominion, I suggest you stay on your side of the Galaxy." Later, we do get a line stating that the New Bajor colony, along with a number of ships, were destroyed for "violating Dominion territory," but that is apparently separate from Sisko's 'crime' of interfering. Further, we know the Dominion was aware of the Federation, and had plans for their eventual contact in another 200 years or so, which was altered by the discovery of the wormhole; if the Gamma Quadrant opening had actually been IN Dominion territory, isn't it plausible that the Dominion would have reacted more aggressively against an apparently immediate threat? Their actions seem far more consistent with observing and contacting a potential threat than with defending their territory from an actual invasion. In fact, I would argue that Dominion claims of territory at that point were part of their effort to study and destabilize the Alpha Quadrant powers--and I would argue that this is supported by the Dominion's actions when their Cardassian territory IS threatened by the Federation, via mining the wormhole.
I think with the later seasons as Section 31 became known and pressure was put on Starfleet that DS9 did show Starfleet wasn't totally benign. It's quite easy to believe that Section 31 was pushing Starfleet into a more passive aggressive stance than normal to goad the Dominion into action before they were ready and using everyone involved as pawns to do so. It's not immediately noticeable because it's not meant to be noticeable.
3:43-3:48 warships? Galaxy glass power, Miranda massacres, (no Khan), constitution's center solo fire arc (no bloody A...), and ambassador class based on some part explodium. Aries and defiant class are more warshippy imo. DS9- encroachment on the gamma quadrant. 5 season penalty, let's watch.
This is why the Cardassians were the best villians. A great example is Gul Dukat. He's evil, but sometimes you sympathize with him and he's not always wrong.
Just come it to the time when a human colony was set up in Shelliack space without permission. They opened negotiations first. Also I believe the UFP did something similar to the Tamarians. I think the Dominion was justified because Sisco didn't know any First Contact procedures. I mean, they should have had a specialist officer trained just for that.
To be fair, the Federation probably didn't know at first how big Dominion Space was and assumed the Dominion was posturing and Starfleet probably thought if they just dodged the areas they had run into the Jem'Hadar nothing would come of it, then again perhaps the Federation probably felt that to adhere to the Dominion's request would show that they could be bullied and make it open season on the Federation for the Klingon's, Romulan's and Cardassians to do the same. While the Dominion mega story arc had it's faults, it did highlight a historical truth that in war things are not clear cut so far as one side sharing all the blame for events leading to conflict.
I think a combination of reckless exploring and fear of the Borg by the feds, and extreme aggression due to boredom over kicking everyone's asses in the Gemma quadrant by the dominion that fueled the war.
Id say that a better argument for Starfleet instigating the war could be made from their actions (or more accurately their conncious inaction) during the events of "the Die is Cast". After all, by that point in the federations relationship with the Dominon both sides knew that the other existed, and both sides knew how to communicate with the other if necessary (although these means were no official channels and would have to involve a star fleet vessel entering dominion space and board a communications relay station). Had Starfleet ordered Sisko and the defiant into the gamma quadrent to warn the dominion about the joint Tal'shiar and Obsidian order fleet heading towards the Omarion Nebula it could have possibly shown the founders that the federation was not looking to challenge the Domions authority in the sector. Instead Starfeet ordered Sisko not to interfere... not to interfere when a fleet of ships headed by the inteligence agencies of two alpha quadrent powers who were not on the best of terms with the federation attacked the home world of the dominion leadership... an attack which if it had played out differently would have result in a retaliation strike by the dominion in the the alpha quadrent, with the first target being the bajoran system (a system which in all regards was a neutral party in the matter) and the federation garrison on DS9. In the past the federation has gotten involved with the millitary affairs of other cultures to benefit themselves ala Picards blockade along Klingon border searching for cloaked Romulan ships (resulting in Gowron winning the civil war and the klingon empire maintianing its relationship with the federation as opposed to the klingon-romulan alliance which would have developed from a Duras victory), but in this situation their lack of action just proved to the founders that the fedeations claim of peacful co-existence was a lie as, sure the federation may not fire the first torpeedos, but they won't raise a finger to stop the romulans and cardassians from doing so.
The reaction of the dominion was not much different than that of the Sheliak, in the TNG episode. But the DS9 era Federation reacted much differently. This was an excellent, concise handling of the point, Discovery not withstanding ☺️
Theres a few time the dominion spys state they just "helped" the war like factions do what they wanted to do. Romulan Tal'Shia and cardassian Obsidian order attack. Klingon war with the cardassians Klingon battle with the federation. All the dominion needed to do was whisper "go on do it." To the right people. I don't think the federation were the golden good guys they where suppose to be. They were just better than than the enemy. As for the ferengi thing. They kinda do that stuff on the down low anyway. Romulan ale is illegal in the federation. Yet kinda common.
Starfleet's response is consistent. One or more Federation colony/outposts are attacked send a multi-role Heavy Cruiser, with a captain capable of responding both militarily or diplomatically. (Arena, Balance of Terror) The Dominion went out of their way to not let anyone know where their borders were. The Feds had heard about them for months and could not learn anything substantive about their members (species or planet). Much like Cestus III, they expanded in because there was no notice that they were in space already claimed by somebody else. My biggest complaint was the incomprehensible policy after this incident. My take: Federation Council meets. It is decided that Vulcan and Tellar will launch a diplomatic envoy (in something along the lines of an Oberth-class) to resolve the matter peacefully. In the mean time, with all contact between the UFP and Dominion going through a choke point, Earth, Centaurus, and Andor will send anything that can be spared from the Romulan, Cardassian, Breen, Tholian, and Tzenkethi borders and Borg defense will be sent to make sure that nothing comes through without their permission. The rest of the council rubber stamps the founders.
That’s why I wish they’d been written with a shade of gray. Give us more sympathetic Dominion agents like Kilana and Remat’iklan. Remind us that they liberated the Skreeans from generations of slavery. Bang the drum of their protection of Bajor from the colonial impulses of Dukat’s Cardassia, and do a few other things like that. They can still be dangerous and menacing, but give them just enough in the way of redeeming qualities so that we don’t quite assume that peaceful coexistence is impossible. Introduce that sliver of ambiguity and you’ll no longer be able to justify every Federation provocation, up to and including trying to fight a latter-day Opium War.
I agree with you with Starship Down, however, I do disagree with you about the USS Odessy, although it is one of the most powerful ships of the Federation, the Federation needed to project power in order to investigate, I would also argue that there was no Dominion diplomacy with regards to the colonies and ships and that the Dominion ran a simulation of it taking over either the Federation or DS9, I don't remember the details.
I was under the impression that not all of the quadrant was considered dominion territory. I thought the outskirts weren't under them? Maybe I am mis-remembering?
I would disagree that the Constitution, Miranda and Ambassador classes were warships. The Constitution and Ambassador classes were exploration vessels, and the Miranda was a multi-purpose science vessel.
I was looking back on the deployment of the USS Odyssey as a rapid responder with only a few Galaxy class say 4 or 5 operational Starfleet spread pretty thin let alone off screen several Starfleet ships destroyed off screen so Starfleet had reason to go in lock and loaded As remember Garek bring up all those missing Starfleet ships so Starfleet had reason heck in the novels there was a Ambassador class built at Bajor perfect and likely deployed to explore the Gamma while not overkill still handle itself as Starfleet encounter with the Borg no idea where they pope up and safe then sorry
@@LoreReloaded What's funny is that I didn't notice it as a kid but, seeing it as an adult with life experiences, I was thrown off. All I could think was why is she talking like that? The Dominion's clearly holding the high card here.
I'd be curious to know how the Federation determines space as neutral. I would imagine they'd use of course physical presence starbases, inhabited planets ext... But I'd also wager to guess they'd take into account density of subspace signals from relays and buoy's. As these devices are needed for navigation and especially communication. Without these devices subspace comms go from taking seconds to days. My guess is they came out of the wormhole and detected almost no subspace infrastructure in the vicinity. And the dominion was using the 'everything the light touches' mentality of claiming space. The Federation has no compunction about trading or colonies and uprooting coloniest. Since the Dominion had almost no presence and refused to engage the Federation likely fleet no qualms about moving in and negotiating a peace after the learned more about where Dominion space actually began and ended.
Great arguments Lore Reloaded. Spandex TNG Starfleet would've been more diplomatic. Post-Wolf 359 Starfleet is more reckless, more dangerous. Once again, thank you Q for "Q Who."
OMG Yes Finally! I've looked before for videos that were critical of the politics of Ds9. I read an article in a magazine once that put the argument that the Federation were the bad guys of DS9. I wish I'd read it properly and kept it because I can't remember what was in the article and what I added to the argument watching DS9, but you can go episode by episode and see things from another point of view. I mean, the whole thing ends with the Federation attempting genocide on its enemy! (rouge section - yeah right!). The whole war started after a colony was placed in the backyard of a superpower. How would the US react to an Iranian colony appearing on an island off it's coast? Which is then defended by the most powerful ships in the Iranian navy? Despite the nonsense Picard said about why people make colonies, when in human history has a colony ever been anything but a foothold in territory you're claiming as your own?
I think the first mistake was sending the Odyssey in more or less full combat mode. While I disagree with the reason for sending in the Odyssey, if it had been me, I would have still sent it in, but, very differently. I would have ordered the Odyssey to go in, shields and weapons on standby but no direct agression, broadcasting on all frequencies that they were coming to remove the offending colonies (or what was left of them) from Dominion space. I would also have them broadcasting that they wish to learn what the Dominions borders were to prevent further transgressions. I would have also have had them take a diplomatic envoy and broadcast that as well that any further demands the dominion had about their space and potential federation violations, could be stated in a civilized manner without resorting to violence. We know the Dominion will at least not fire if they feel they don't have to. (See the episode where they send the Defiant, the Federations. . .ehem, "one and only warship" into Dominion space with a sick Odo, broadcasting their peaceful intent/true mission on subspace.) While the dominion did board the Defiant, they never directly engaged it in combat, proving the Dominion could peacefully be dealt with. Upon what i would hope would be peaceful negotiations onboard the Odyssey, I would have then attempted to establish trade with the Dominion through the wormhole and other Diplomatic relationships, offering to ensure that no further hostile transgressions into dominion space occurred by potentially unaware ships, and would have asked to establish a joint controlled Starbase on the Gamma Quadrant side of the wormhole (While also offering the Dominion some sort of station on DS9) So that both sides could monitor traffic through the wormhole and approve/deny it as necessary. I feel this would have been more like what the Federation would have done with the mindset that they had with the Romulans and Cardassians with the Neutral Zone and DMZ. Despite probably being able to get more out of the agreements, they capitulated massively to get a peace that both sides could "Agree" upon. This is no different imo.
Actually, I never saw the dominion as Moustache twirling villains, see their treatment of Bajor, Play nice and you will be spared. See Weyoun basically censoring Jake Sicko but leaving it at that. But the point is the Dominion seems to claim the entire Gamma quadrant,
One of your previous episode cover how the TNG era Star Fleet is complacent. I think their action wasn't from War Mongering or Stupidity, but from Arrogance. They had the Borg, and they defeated them, the Klingon post Star Trek 6 have been greatly diminished, and what power they had they used to keep the Romulans at bay. The Cardasians are just a side war (much like with the U.S. with Iraq during that time). So they are so focused on exploration and expansion that it never occurred to them that someone with great power didn't want them on their next door. I kinda see it akin to a bunch of hippies who happen to go on your back lawn, smoking dope, and partying without your permission, and get really angry at you if you tell them to leave or you will call the police. The federation became a bunch of hippies, with the power to enforce their way of life, until some one came in and told them to leave and brought in the cops who could do that.
Whe the deep space9 show ended I looked back on it and suspected that section 31 was pulling strings from the start. Because they realized that the Federation was stagnating. By the time of deep space 9 the Federation had acquired a great deal of technology that they did not seem to be exploiting. I came to the conclusion that section 31 decided that the current Paradigm had to change to end otherwise the Federation would have ended. They had encountered to too many enemies if it did not adapt it would be destroyed.
Possibly off topic question, but is it ever expressly mentioned that the Federation is a democracy in the way that we know it? They are a representative federal republic with a council and a president but who elects them? Is it by popular vote? Is there an electoral college. Are they appointed by member worlds representatives? If so, who appoints those representatives? Who governs the individual world? Are they elected by people or appointed by the Federation. Are there even different political parties in the Federation. Other franchises like Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica make a big deal about fighting to keep or restore democracy in a war. Even Babylon 5 had an early episode where the characters were debating who to vote for in the Earth presidentisl election. In 50 years of Trek, I can't think of a single scene where a Federation democratic election is taking place. There's no mention of candidates or characters remembering to file absentee ballots by subpace, or anything. I don't know, that seems like a good lore topic to me.
That'd be funny seeing some version of the Death Star in Trek.. I from what I remember it wasnt so much Fleet provoking Dominion as Sisko provoking Dominion.. BUT.. Knowing how we find out the Dominion works.. either militarily or undermining an trying to make THEMSELVES look better. The Dominion I also think was trying to PROVOKE someone into starting a conflict and sisko was the perfect one to provoke into hostile acts. An the Ferengi... being usual underhanded selves couldn't have been helping. Just think what'd happened or happen for a potentially great story if the Federation and Dominion ever tried to be friendly to each other.. But that's raise a question of WHO could unite 2 superpowers and their allies against them across the known universe that neither could beat alone but poses a huge hostile threat to both?? Only 1 or 2 species come to mind. I'd say personally BOTH sides did plenty and had fundamental flaws that drove them both to make hostile acts.
The dominion can’t be to far from the worm hole, they are able to get to the founders planet quickly in the series. Also during the series we are told getting information on a battle will take a day at least. I also find the people saying the dominion has no claim as weird, the dominions claim to the territory is at least as strong as the federations. Have you hear the theory that the kahrma may have been working for the dominion in the trade deal, to allow the dominion to infiltrator the Alpha quadrant.
I blame Captain Sisko. In the fourth season episode The Visitor, when Captain Sisko is "dead", the war with the Dominion doesn't take place. Granted the Federation has lost Deep Space Nine to the Klingons but there has been no war with the Dominion.
Dominion: stay out of our space
Starfleet: I don't see your name on it
prion42 we’re just exploring, bro!
So pretty much the entire European Imperialist Expansion Era aka the Age of Exploration. This video made me think about when the Europeans arrived in South Africa and was like hey we didn't see anybody so you know, dibs. Wait a minute the Federation is actually neo-colonialism. Quark and Garak were right.
@@kennethrapp1379 Uhm my house is right over that little hill there. Also what's a flag?
@@kennethrapp1379 "and I'm backing it up with this phaser! That was lent to me by the National Pew-Pew Assosiation!"
In a nutshell.
The Defiant IS the first Starfleet vessel specifically built for war. While the other vessels you picture, the Constitution, Miranda and Ambassador classes were obviously built with combat in mind it was not their ONLY function. All of those ships also had extensive research facilities and their heavy armament was just a common sense precaution for vessels being sent into deep space and totally unknown territories where there was no telling what danger they might encounter. The Defiant, however, was built SPECIFICALLY for combat. ALL of its systems were built for power, maneuverability, firepower and durability in combat with NO research facilities on board, indeed no SPACE FOR dedicated research facilities. In that sense the Defiant IS Starfleet's first "warship," as in ship built EXCLUSIVELY for combat with no eye towards peaceful missions.
Ares Class? Lol Axanar JK
A five year mission to kick ass.
Indeed - it can do science (seen when they make the artificial wormhole), but there are better plattforms for this kind of thing!
While just as non-canon as the Ares Class, there is a good quote from the game Star Trek: Birth of the Federation.
"Our ships are not build to start wars, but to end them."
The Constitution class is totally not a warship but can still wipe out an entire planet's surface from orbit... From an outsider's perspective that's a warship, not a science and exploration vessel.
Look at it this way, you're home at night, binge watching some Star Trek on TV and a van with a M134 minigun on the roof pulls up outside. The side of the van says it's with the power company and the van crew says they're just inspecting the lines, but you're on your porch wondering why the hell the power company needs such a large, powerful gun on their service van and they say "Well, it's just in case. We go to some rough neighborhoods sometimes." That's close to how planets that aren't in the Federation probably feel when one of Starfleet's "not warships" slide into orbit or when one of these "science" ships that are armed to the teeth get too close to their space.
Came here from the video on Exkheart’s channel. Grew up on the original Star Treck and Star Wars movies as well as TNG. Nice to find a place to sink my teeth into Star Trek lore.
Sweet! Welcome! :) Motto of the channel is 'its a conversation'.. So you're welcome to take a look and give me your opinions. As with anything, my ideas and thoughts change over time - so if you get to the older videos and see something that doesn't gel with current stuff, it's probably that. Always up for a conversation as well.
-Treats Discovery as cannon.
*Me: TRIGERRED*
Hah, you and I both.. The channel bases it on canon and canon is what CBS says it is.. for the moment at least..
U can't treat discovery as cannon. Star trek cannon is my forte and I've really tried to find a way to include discovery. The non Enterprise ships wearing Enterprise insignias, holodeck tech, no Klingon eugenics, ship tech, tone, section 31, sections 31's badge, Pike serving on discovery, no linking discovery missions to anything cannon, just so much I can't justify. Which is why it's so disconnected from trekkies
the only three ways discovery is canon.
1. kelvin timeline
2. riker making another revisionist holo-novel
3. something something *insert future person* goes to the past to fix. thus it never happened
@@cmdraftbrn I nominate myself to travel back in time and fix it so that Discovery never happened...anybody got a time machine or a spare Klingon Bird of Prey that I can slingshot round the sun?
@@stevejackson8060 I'll let you know when I find one.
If the Miranda Class was designed for war, the Federation must have wanted to lose.
The ships are doing pretty well considering many are half a century old.
Lore, I must disagree. The only Colony in the Gamma Quadrant was New Bajor colony and where it was located was well outside Dominion Space. As to Starfleet ships, the Dominion could have sent a single envoy to enquire about the ships in their space but chose to be confrontational instead.
To be fair, we don't truly know what dominion space was..people have pointed this out.. They say 'the gamma quadrant' - but we're never given a map..
@@LoreReloaded Idron was a great distance from Dominion Space, nearly 4 light years or more. New Bajor was well within that unclaimed space. The Dominion wanted to keep the UFP only in the Alpha Quadrant.
As I said in another comment, you can talk technicality all you want. See what would happen if Iran tried to plant a colony just outside the US coastal waters that were "technically" unclaimed. You don't have to make much of a guess. We almost all got nuked because of the Cuban missile crisis and no one was doing anything technically illegal there. Just messing in the backyard of a superpower that doesn't want you there.
@@stras676 the difference is that the UFP and Bajor weren't aware of the Dominion yet but until 1979 Iran was a known ally of the United States......
@@jameskennedy8030 The idea of this argument is to try, for once, to look at the situation from the other side and see if it looks as good when you don't consider yourselves the "good guy" and assume good faith. The Dominion find that a superpower has suddenly appeared in their part of the Galaxy (Federation, Bajor. Same thing. Bajor was thinking of joining the Federation Bajor colony might as well be Federation colony. Would probably be soon). You tolerate the situation for so long but then decide enough is enough. As if to prove that this is a foothold, the Federation sends though its most powerful vessel. You tell them to get the hell out of your side of the Galaxy, you're arrogantly told there's no stopping the invasion:
TALAK'TALAN: Coming through the anomaly is interference enough. Unless you wish to continue to offend the Dominion, I suggest you stay on your side of the galaxy.
DAX: You're making a mistake if you think that detaining Commander Sisko will stop us from "exploring" the Gamma Quadrant.
In the Federation’s defense, they had heard nothing more than whispers of the Dominion for like two years after the discovery of the wormhole. It’s not like they had any kind of obvious claim to that territory.
We don't know that the space that was colonized by those in the Alpha quadrant was in fact Dominion space.
Only that the Dominion claimed it was, this leads me to believe that they only made this claimed to deny the alpha quadrant powers that space. My argument is further supported by the Dominion statement that all of the Gamma quadrant was their territory, which is something we know is not true.
Some have brought that up, and its a fair point. The Gamma Quadrant is massive so claiming it all is somewhat .. silly as well. But again, yea - it took about a season or two for the dominion to make themselves known after the wormhole.. which is sketchy
Here's the thing about the Dominion, they're smart. They wouldn't bother to claim all territory that they see only those that strategically important. You kind see that in the show, some of the existing Gamma quadrant powers were effectively puppet states. They were similar to what the Cardassians became, they were allowed to run themselves until/unless they was given a direct directive from the Dominion. The question now is are those puppet states territory considered Dominion space? Personally I don't think it was, simply for no other reason then those states weren't important enough. I think a decent analogy would be between State and Federal land in the US, and yes I know the flaw in that analogy is that both are still considered US territory but you get the idea.
@@LoreReloaded Weren't there a couple planets that the federation visited, and had episodes on, in the gama quadrant that were not under Dominion control? That pretty much seals the deal in my mind, regardless of what they say.
Hey I just came from your time in the spotlight in Eck’s channel
YAY! What did you think?
@@LoreReloaded it was great
Lore Reloaded I thought it was perfectly you and it was great.
@@LoreReloaded Absolutely amazing work.
Starfleet had been able to throw its weight around for so long without real consequences, no wonder they were completely blindsided by the kick to the groin that was the Dominion.
yeah, Ramirez's speech does appear to have gotten lost somewhere. As non-Cannon, as it was, it is on point of what Starfleet 'claims' to be.
We are facing an enemy, that is consumed and committed to our total destruction. An enemy that demands to be fought, and we will fight! But I say to you our greatest challenge, is not the might of a Klingon fleet. The greatest challenge lying before us, is to do what must be done, without undoing the dream of the Federation.
For myself, I have but one fear, Destroying the dream of the Federation.
Compared to such a loss, I DO NOT FEAR THE KLINGON EMPIRE!
Starfleet apparently forgot the "without undoing the dream of the Federation." bit, lol.
Great vid Lore. B)
(edit) P.S. I think like so many other things, the political stance of Starfleet depends on the needs of the story plot of each episode rather than a grander scope of Trek.
Glad you enjoyed - A lot of it moves at the 'speed of plot'.. So it's about trying to balance that in the universe.
Hmmm probably a glitch but this vid has only been on for 10 minutes but your comment was from over a hour ago hmmmm
Obi-Dan- Kenobi I'm a Gelato dispenser enthusiast, lol. Early Patreon access, in the words of Valen "there are no coincidences".
Thanks, Lore, and agreed on the 'speed of plot' angle. Starfleet is all over the political landscape from episode to episode.
The Dominion does not own the entire Gamma Quadrant. The planets colonized by the Alpha powers were quite a distance from their border, which we know exists from the episode "In Purgatory's Shadow." It wouldn't have stayed that way of course due to there unlimited expansion policies but current Dominion space is a well established area. The Domionion's demand that all Alpha powers stop entry into the Gamma Quadrant has no basis beyond the "We don't like it" phase and is like listening to a petulant child.
So yeah fuck the Domion. They were coming no matter what and didn't like the fact that the wormhole threw a wrench into their long term plans.
All I will say is, watch SFDebris's opinions on the subject in his video on the episode ''The Jem'Hadar'' as he goes into great detail on the subject. To summarize briefly, there was nothing at all that said that the wormhole was in Dominion space despite their claims to the contrary, so much so that the Dominion were considered to be a myth for the first two seasons with only vague hints of some far off menace that was threatening the Gamma Quadrant. They very much have a school bully attitude towards where their space is: ''it exists, therefore its mine.''
And secondly, in hindsight, they were never going to honour any agreement because the Founders HATE solids. They want to enslave or kill every last one of us. Any Starfleet admiral returning from a meeting with the Founders would have been the equivalent of Neville Chamberlain waving his piece of paper after talks with Hitler. War was inevitable.
great reference
@clearspira
Case closed! In my eyes the Dominion weren't that far off from the "Borg". If they see or have solid evidence of an foreign organization regardless if it's in there territory or not they will investigate them and either destroy or enslave said foreign organization because they ( Dominion and/or Borg) know they have the power to do so.
@@RegBeta I would love to see a Dominion vs Borg War.
@@Dave102693
Agreed, I think the Dominion would get there ass handed to them and be forced to join up with Federation. Making what Q did the episode "Q Who" come to full circle, that without him the Federation wouldn't be as effective resisting the Borg or any hostile foreign organization.
"All I will say is two small paragraphs on the topic!"
Srsly though I quite like the points you raise. Time to go watch more SFDebris.
Question: Was the U.S.S. Odyssey upgraded/retrofitted/refitted (insert minor refit joke here) for combat? Much less Dominion War upgrades? In future iterations the Galaxy class is much more formidable. However the Odyssey didn't know what they were getting into. They were explorers first, soldiers second. The Odyssey was the pride of Starfleet maybe the Alpha Quadrant. And their arrogance thought they could take on anything. But the wing of Jemhadar attack ships wanted to send the message that their most powerful ship wasn't enough to stop them.
Gunboat diplomacy is the best diplomacy: "speak softly and carry a big stick, you will go far". The Federation has the right idea.
Your compilation of events reminds me of the classic episode with the first contact with the Gorn.
Unknowingly (maybe arrogantly) the Federation funded a colony in Gorn space. The Gorn destroy the colony which leads to a conflict between the Gorn ship and the Enterprise.
BTW, why I said arrogantly. There is a Valerian and Laureline comic where natives return to a planet the humans have settled on. Thanks to a law of some forsight, the natives have to be allowed back onto their planet.
The thing is, the natives had been gone for centuries, because they are very long lived and here comes the arrogant part back. The Federation seems not to see that their standards might differ from someone else's.
For example, say you have a very careful species that discussed a new colony for a century before moving in. Let's say the Federation found the system as well as decades-old traces of visitors, but they went away, so the planet is free. Their colony has been there for a few years and suddenly a massive fleet appears. The aliens had not just prepared a colony ship, but dozens and brought the infrastructure and everything the colonists would need, including a defense fleet and a system-wide defense system.
And what if the aliens don't want to share the planet? What if they want decades of non-personal exchanges before they even make personal contact? Maybe it's because they want to make sure that no species in the Federationcarries a disease they re not ready for? Essentially the Federation ruined the planet for them just by being there and they now have to look what to do with their colony fleet. Just because the Federation is impatient or aggogantly assumes that everyone has the same standards as they have.
And we are back at Star Trek's biggest problem. World building.
"The Federation seems not to see that their standards might differ from someone else's."
And then we come to the problem of whose standards to adhere to in a situation where two parties have different standards.
You can say the same about the Earth Alliance in Babylon 5. A democratic utopia (minus the psi-corps). Expansion of their influence and victories on behalf of other races boosted their confidence.
But then everything changed when the -Fire- Minbari Federation attacked.
Yea, i agree.. I've done a few babylon 5 series.
@@LoreReloaded Still waiting on that battle breakdown for Shadow Dancing BTW.
The whole Earth -Minbari war was due to a miscommunication and or misstake. Minbari ships approached with gunports open as a sign of respect and earth alliance took it as they were going to open fire on them and fired first. OOOPPPSSS
Another great video, happy Christmas lore.
The problem is that capturing Sisko isn't all the Dominion had done when the Odyssey left. They'd slaughtered a Bajoran colony and destroyed a number of ships. And considering that Starfleet didn't even know the Dominion existed, they really don't have a leg to stand on. The Odyssey wasn't on an attack mission, they specifically said they were there to investigate and recover hostages. And in that encounter the Dominion made it clear they weren't going to leave the Alpha Quadrant alone
An interesting what if…Sisko never opened the wormhole so no Dominion, what would have happened?
[WARNING ESSAY LENGTH]
Either Sisko didn't find the wormhole ect, he didn't go to Bajor, or Locutus took an extra shot at the Saratoga to make sure. Another option is Starfleet was able to collapse the wormhole once the realized how big a threat they were facing.
The Dominion was an 'out of context' problem, it could not be foreseen and be accounted for in any plans - besides the generic 'have a big tough military', and take advantage of the fact that you have telepathic species that could detect any infiltrators if you only used them extensively for intelligence - Betazoids could not read the minds of changlings, which was a clue that they were changlings, and as for the Vorta…
So what would have happened? The Marquis continue to bleed the Cardassians, who respond with more overt and bloodthirsty reprisals against Federation CITIZENS. Bajor goes all in with the Federation and a lot of former Bajorian militia try out for Starfleet. Bajor tries political maneuvering within the Federation to give more support for the colonists.
Cardassians would hit non Marquis Federation citizens either by accident, "arranged" accident (fed false Intel by Section 31 or even Marquis) or just out of frustration. And then things get interesting.
Bajor can request Starfleet ships be stationed there, and what if a powerful Galaxy class ship, (say the Odyssey?) was put on guard duty. Bajor could get it's defense fleet re equiped by Starfleet as well. So there's a build up of Starfleet near the DMZ and since there are no other threatening powers (except the Romulan cold war, and a future Borg attack) Starfleet can afford to concentrate forces. Note thanks to Wolf 359, Starfleet does have some new ship types, besides the mothballed Defiant, that are more combat orientated, not that it's really needed against Cardassians.
So what is the endgame, and is it according to Section 31's plan?
Section 31 would like to see Starfleet get tougher, but they are dedicated to protecting the ideals of the Federation as well, it's just that they don't follow them themselves. As Sloan said to Bashir, he does what he does so good people like Julian could contribute to the Federation. They would be against the idea of a military coup like what almost happened in 'Paradise Lost', but a war against a belligerent foe that didn't (yet) have the power to overwhelm the Federation would help stiffen the military. A more muscular Federation, but with the same "benevolent" ideology and less border issues.
Also there was the long term risk that Cardassia may one day get their hands on superior weapons technology from a alien race, or just ally themselves with other factions (well they did, the Dominion). A Romulan, Cardassian, Breen alliance would be a threat, even without the knowledge that the Breen had energy dampening weapons, [and in such a war that one Klingon ship might not have made that modification, and how the hell do you run a covert opp against the Breen to steal a ship? So ironically the Dominion may have prevented the Breen from winning any future war against a alpha quadrant power].
So taking out Cardassia makes long term strategic sense, and furthermore it could cement the alliance with the Klingons, invite them to the Federation Cardassian war 2 (This time we roll into Bagdad, oops, Cardassia prime). The Klingons would be thrilled, a good war is good for internal stability, gives their hotheads and agitators something to do, and keeps them fighting fit. Also the clear thinkers would know that fighting side by side with the Federation would help the Empire in the long term as it would ease tensions and make other powers think that if you messed with the Empire, you messed with the Federation. Besides it would make the obvious Romulan plans to split the alliance much more difficult.
So the Empire is more stable and has better relations with (and respects as warriors) the Federation. That would be a long term goal of Section 31, ensuring that the Klingon Empire is a stable reliable ally. And besides, humans, being human - after fighting side by side with the Klingons, there would be a bunch of Klingon Human hybrids born soon after.
That may have been be the long term strategic plan of Section 31, then the Federation absorbs Cardassia, similar to post WW2 Japan or West Germany.
If such a scenario did occur (in another quantum reality) what would be the long term outcome? Voyager would probably return the same, depending on Admiral Janeway's actions in non post Dominion war Federation (The knowledge of the war, sent through the relay, didn't have that much influence) so Starfleet gets a power up courtesy of Voyager.
Section 31 still probably had compromised Romulan intelligence, Shinzon never becomes a war hero and gets control of the Scimitar (and maybe it was never developed), Bashir is never approached to join Section 31 because he's never suspected of being a Dominion agent, so Section 31 stays even more hidden.
Then the Federation keeps expanding, and eventually meets the Dominion, in maybe a century or two. And by that time Starfleet is much more advanced and much bigger (with a lot of species, some of which may have very useful abilities), while the Dominion is relatively static, so the Dominion would lose any conflict as their comparatively less advanced ships get Instagibbed. Anti founder tech would be much more likely as just the higher tech level, and better understanding of Odo's physiology from medical studies over the years (plus more telepaths). Plus the Dominion wouldn't even have the tech to travel to the alpha quadrant and the Federation would have heard of them as they slowly approached, not turned up in the middle of their territory due to a wormhole.
So the Dominion war is just a one sided skirmish, and the history books tell of the Marquis as freedom fighters, to the slight discomfort of Cardassian (and quasi Cardassian) Starfleet personnel.
You know this actually isn't a bad alternate history path. Now are there issues? Of course, but nonetheless its a well-written stepping stone for someone to start from.
Interesting alt history. However Cardassia no longer being a power, and Klingons presumably taking some of their territory would bring them into conflict with the Breen Confederacy. Now the big question is do the Breen form an alliance with the Romulans? If that happens the entire Alpha Quadrant would likely end up at war with itself. However if they didn’t Ally with the Romulans, or an alliance was declined the Klingon empire would eventually conquer the Breen Confederacy.
This puts the strong neutral powers within and near federation space (like the tholians) in a hard place... join the federation, or get conquered by or at least go to war with the Klingons or even the Romulans eventually and suffer the same fate as the Breen. In my view these strong neutral powers would then join the federation, as its the lesser of the evils. This would give the federation a huge boost technologically, potentially in manpower though I suspect most species that joined the federation out of necessity wouldn’t join star fleet, more resources and more defensive positions.
The Federation would truly become a powerhouse in such a scenario. However these powers that do join the federation may leave once the threat is over, however by that point their knowledge, technology, and likely some of their member species would remain a part of the federation so it wouldn’t matter much even if they left. Their leaving could even strengthen the bond of the rest of the federation as any group that did leave would then be vulnerable to being conquered by another group that left.
It's a different culture with different ways. Their's is to answer transgression with force. That tells you that a show of force is going to be viewed as a possible declaration of war. They made their feelings clear on the matter of entering or getting too close to their territory. The federation should have kept trying to contact them. Each situation Lore described in this video is further proof that regardless what the Federation says. They disregard the concerns and wishes of the Dominion. I think you reading of the situation is a solid one Lore.
I actually agree with you on this one. Even the Romulans said that Benjamin L. Sisko was, quote; "The man who started the war with the Dominion". As a Starfleet Captain who not only was in command of the Alpha Quadrant space station on the opposite end of the wormhole from the Dominion, but of the USS Defiant as well, Sisko's actions, sanctioned by Starfleet Command and the Federation Council or otherwise, instigated the war with the Dominion, bringing on a war that it was NOT ready for in the slightest degree.
Much agreed. Great perspective. So federation warships....just one(two)...well three, Sao Paulo, defiant and Prometheus. All other ships, although able to lay waste to the surface of a planet, are for defensive purposes only. Yep it is, I know....but it is. Lol
Defiant intrepid Prometheus sovereign Akira steamrunner nova was all apart of starfleets new design ethos.... arm
Ships to the teeth 🦷 far more than before starfleet was never w military organisation but it became one first and everything els second good in my opinion
I held off on watching this until I finished DS9, and now that it’s done, I have to say that I wholeheartedly agree with you. Frankly, other than the obvious mustache-twirling evil, I could never understand why the Dominion were the “bad guys”.
For all of Seasons 3 through 5, I was generally appalled by the way the Federation violated Dominion space. Not only had they been told that their aggressive expansion was seen as a threat, the Founders themselves had shared the reason for their fear. The Federation were like people who aggravate antisocial cats and then get angry when they’re scratched/bitten. They should know better.
In that light, the Federation’s behavior was a blatant violation of the Prime Directive. The Cardassins, Klingons, and Romulans were all engaged in some or all of the same behaviors as the Dominion. If you squint at it, the overwhelming warrior culture of the Klingons even shares qualities with the the slave soldier culture of the Jem’Hadar. The Federation was perfectly happy to leave all of THEM alone.
Lastly, while the Dominion was poised to seize the Alpha Quadrant, Section 31 set a genocide into motion two years before war officially broke out ... a Starfleet was perfectly happy to let it keep going once they knew. If the Founders had known about the virus and declared war on those grounds, there would be barely any room left to call the Federation good guys.
I loved DS9. It stands as my favorite Star Trek series. I just wish the writers had put proper effort into justifying the conflict rather than having everyone TALK about the evils of the Dominion and giving the Founders/Jem’Hadar some kick-the-dog moments every season. Thanks for putting up the perfect video where I could blow off that steam.
I agree with you, and the last time we talked we was on different sides. And the only reason why the federation kept going was because they wanted the newest member of it, the bajorians to be a productive member and not a "sucking resources" one.
Yo, I'm a fairly new Star trek fan and I'm loving you content, keep it up my guy. Oh and question, I just finished the next generation, where should I go next?
Great video on Eck's channel!
glad you enjoyed!
Honeslty i love watching UA-camrs and then find out when they work together :D
really good video, and got to admit i was a little on the dominion side [prior, the war], given how there sovereign territory was encroached by star fleet- this is why starfleet always needs a vulcan as the prime advisor
Good points in the video about Starfleet and the federation actions per to the dominion first battle. However, in the early episodes of season 3 of DS9 we learned. The founders already had intent to invade the federation to rule over them with their authoritarian rule. Plus the changelings infiltrated the federation and other alpha quadrant powers to destabilize them for a future invasion. The dominion already made up its mind to conquer the federation long before the first battle.
You make some good points. A counter argument stating the Dominion was known (at least by report) to be aggressive and brutal wouldn't negate your point that Starfleet's actions were reckless and aggressive at best.
i remember watching star ship down and thinking wth are they doing out there conducting illegal activity like that that,but then i also remember saying the same thing when i saw the Vorta messing around with the orions.
Minor thing: the Defiant was the first *dedicated* warship. The Constitution and Galaxy were multi-role.
I noticed your getting into Andromeda(great show...season 3 eh..ish)I'd love to hear your take on trance Gemini and her species of Stars
You can't have a strong democracy without a strong military
Definetly, you think it can be sustained from outside forces?
The federation was democracy lite.... they Usurp power from sovereign planets and everyone has to conform to their rules..... they say you’ll be better in the federation if you join us... then slowly take you over..... I would have joined the maquis. I would have wanted nothing to do with them.
The federation council was a few people from each planet like that’s a representation of an entire planet. I’d love to have seen a story ark of member worlds braking off from them and making their own alternative alliance..... wait that’s Star Wars episode 2 and 3 lol 😂 but still I hated this rosy happy clappy federation and their superior morality when they where nothing of the sort.
@@Marcus51090
You're somewhat explaining Brexit and why we voted out of the E.U. (let's not get political folks, I'm only using his explanation as an analogy). How can a council of the few represent the wishes of the millions (or billions in star trek), without controversy? There has to be a strong leadership in place who can take action when/if needed, unlike what the S.W.U had but then you're getting into an authoritarian regime which you're trying to avoid so finding the balance is hard
Wrap your iron fist in soft velvet.
Von Splatterblast have no fear Jean claud juncker is pissed most of the time lol 😂
War... Yes... The incidents before, the manipulated war with Klingons? Martok changeling?
Sisko started the real war with the minefield... Dominion worked hard to get as much as possible in "incidents".
I'm sure you've heard this before possibly thought it but there's a difference designing a ship for war from designing a ship for exploration that can still kick your ass a battle if it needs to. And from a certain point of view those two could be the same thing
Loved your Eckheart's video James, thank you for making alliances between ST & SW fans, but what about our B5 fans?
I totally agree with you. The Federation/Starfleet started a war that was already coming. You also forgot about the mining of the wormhole.
I say the Dominion more then the federation in this. Hell capturing the New Bajor colony and bring over a map in their space Starfleet would have been reasonable. the heavy handness of the Dominion hurt them in the end.
*QUESTION..... was the Space surrounding the worm hole in the gamma Quadrant in dominion space? I don’t think it was...... I always wandered why the federation didn’t claim the space on both sides of the wormhole*
Mining a worm hole isn’t going to go down well is it..... the dominion was going to strike eventually..... I totally agree the federation had just cause to start a war themselves.....
Also the defiant “first” warship comment..... I think they meant first warship that’s ONLY a warship it has nothing els other than fighting, the Cony,ambassador, Miranda etc all had other rolls.
But in truth I’ve always been extremely critical of the federation as a thing..... I don’t like them I wouldn’t want anything to do with them. They are the European Union of the galaxy.
Pitty they didn’t have a scarif style shield gate at the mouth of the wormhole lol 😂 good luck enemy ships
That's an interesting proposition. The Federation could have come back and claimed that the wormhole was basically the federations all the way around and for them to stay out. They could use that as a way to get a foothold in - or try atleast. The Dominion was always going to try a take over.. So it mattered little. Starfleet just helped with the justification a bit.
Lore Reloaded I’ll also add that caption Sisko said “she’s a warship that’s got one roll to fight” so why did starfleet send that ship to study a miniaturising anomaly in the episode “a little ship” I dunno who was running starfleet but I’ve always thought they where all over the place
Also..... the second starfleet ordered the mining of the wormhole they should have mobilised their fleet and the Klingon fleet TO THE WORMHOLE ergo DS9 before the mining started... lol not two days later. and holding onto DS9 they would have a staging ground to strike into cardy space at the start of the war.... containing them within their borders..... why they let it fall and thought that was a good idea was madness......
Edit..... I’d love to see a video of yours that discusses federation battle tactics etc
@@LoreReloaded The issue with that is that the Wormhole was in Bajoran space and Bajor at that time was not a Federation member, technically speaking the Federation could not claim the Alpha side as theirs. That subsequently makes trying to claim space that you can only get to through the space of another, slightly unstable government would not be a sound idea.
Now as to the response to the Jem'hadar arriving on DS9, saying they have destroyed these ships and colony of you and your Allies and taken a Command level officer captive. They also claim to be something you have heard about as effectively the 'boogy man' of the Gamma Quadrant. You would not take them at their word, now sending the Oddessy was done as it was the nearest Starfleet ship, it was already on its way to DS9 when the Jem'hadar showed up. Lastly they had been going back and forth through the Wormhole for some time by that point, the dominion would have known about them and could have (at least in the Federations view) initiated peaceful contact long before they made any incursions to their space. Instead you get what effectivly could be considered an act of war with the complete extermination of a civilian colony and ships.
As to Starfleets more general behaviour, as we see from the attempted coup by some Starfleet officers there is a sharp divide in Starfleet about how it should be acting, this likely started with the Borg first contact and was exacerbated by the war with the Cardassians and the following peace treaty and subsequent formation of the Marque. One the one side you have those who think Starfleet should be nothing but a scientific and exploratory organisation and that everything can be resolved through diplomacy. On the other side there are those who think Starfleet needs to accept that fact that for all intents and purposes it is the Federations military and they need a conflict where the opponent is a real threat to the combined might of both them and the Klingon's to push that. So there were likely several people who looked at the threat of the Dominion after the first contact and thought, 'Yes thats what we need', after all they demonstrated the the Federations shields, something that it was use to being superior to its other rivals were useless against them.
The question about the border and the location of the wormhole isn't an issue, the border could be 40 lgt yrs away. With the show, they regularly make trips to Earth and Q'onoS as being short road trips, like popping in for a few short days. Going by this the federation could have been 100's of lgt yrs into the gamma quadrant, they were dealing with Dominion vassal states.
Spot on, I agree 100%
"Oh, you own this space? Sorry, we'll just pull back to our side of the wormhole. Want to trade?"
My main argument against this "did the federation instigate the war" argument is the problem of the 2 years between the discovery of the worm hole and the actions taken by the Dominion against the Federation. Granted, one could argue that those 2 years were spent gathering information about the alpha quadrent and its respective powers, but my main irk about that is is that it took the Ferengi about a year and a half to confirm that the Dominion was indeed a real entity yet they didn't possess any territory within the gamma quadrent (this is also a criticism of the other alpha quadrent powers ability to gather information as although the other powers were up for colonisation and exploration it appears to me that the Ferengi were the only power putting pieces of the gamma quadent puzzle together). Meanwhile the Dominion, whose space ended before the wormhole and whome you expect to have a greater understanding on the goings on within their sector of space only reacted after 2 years even though its more than likley that the dominion knew about the alphaquadrent powers months after they stated exploring the gamma quadrent.
During those first initial months of the gamma quadrent exploration the Dominion could have sent an envoy to DS9 to state that "this" territory was theirs. Instead they waited 2 years, allowed a couple of collonies to be established and then destroyed them, along with a few star ships, just to make a point. Going back to the Discovery reference of how the Vulcans fired on every Klingon ship they met, that was only after their first attempt at peacfull contact failed. In this situation the dominion offered the alphaquadrent powers no first peaccfull attempt (that we know of... unless it was said to the bajorans of new bajor who may have some misgivings about surrendering their world to a major military power), instead opting for the nuclear option (which was made even worse by the fact that the dominion were also using this chaos to plant a Vorta spy on DS9, which of course only failed due to the inginuity and pure guenius which is the Ferengi).
Now the Federation sending in the USS Odyssey (plus runabouts) to rescue captain Sisko made sense. Afterall, by this point the Dominion had already sent one of their warships into Bajoran space and dropped off a list of dead bajoran colonists onto DS9, so the Federation acted in kind, with the only difference being that the space immediatly beyond the opening of the wormhole on the gamman quadrent side of was not Dominion space, and any claim by the dominion otherwise was in the attempt to get their spy into the alpha quadrent.
Now does the Federation have any cause to be blamed here. Yes. Although after the Borg incursion, coupled with the rising tensions with the Romulans, Starfleet saw a rise in its millitrisation to levels equivalent, at least, to its 23rd century incarnation (which was in my opinion less a statement of "lets be a millitary now", but more a realisation that as Starfleet moved further into the unknown it was encountering greater dangers once more) the federation council appears to have activly ignored these recent dangers and asked that starfleet, now more knowledgable of the dangers beyond their borders, act in a similar fashion = ignore the tensions along the cardassian borders, just maintain the treaty. The Romulans want to reunify with the Vulcans, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. A wormhole to the gamma quadrent, well lets just stumble into it and colonise staight away, forgoing any long term exploratory and scientific expeditions. The Fedetation seems to have wanted to return to the peacful Detente ideologies of season1 TNG, despite the fact that they no longer lived in that galaxy.
What combat-specific upgrades did the Odyssey have?
How is it different? Colonization is not an act of aggression unless you're told you're not wanted. The Dominion initiated hostilities so did the Klingons. The Dominion responding militarily is unwarranted
Thank you. My point exactly.
So, are you going to make more episodes of your star trek show? First one was super cool, and i can't wait to see how Picard would restore federation unity.
THANK YOU!
In my eyes, the Federation started the Dominion war, they violate territory, and when they get their asses kicked out of Dominion space- and have one of their officers captured, they send in a half mile long starship... If I was the Dominion squadron commander, I'd fire first, ask questions later, for all they know that ship was for for invasions...
Than after that, the Dominion move in, not to attack the Federation- but to help the Cardassian Union, what the hell is wrong with helping a power which was getting every man, woman and child slaughtered by the Klingons. And- as the Dominion is sending in ships to reinforce the Cardassians- The Federation decide to open negotiations, and border agreements... NOPE! They decide to F*cking mine the wormhole... This kind of reminds me of the Cuban missile crisis, Cuba being the Cardassians, who ask for help of the Soviet Union ( The Dominion ), and the US ( Federation ) not liking the fact of a power getting even with it decides to blockade Cuba... Yeah- not the same circumstances, hell they couldn't be much different, but it has some similarities, one power asks for help of another power, and the other does not like that.
Maybe the Dominion was going to invade the Federation, but that does not justify what the Feds did, they effectively started the war.
That’s the reason I never understood the admiration for deep space nine. If this were tng Star Trek, the federation would have apologised, signed a treaty and left the gamma quadrant. The UFP were known for there attempt to obtain keep peace at all costs.
How do you feel about the death of Trip at the end of Enterprise?
You make some good points. I do believe that the Federation didn't really do much to prevent the war, maybe even go as far as helped spark it. Of course that doesn't excuse the things the Dominion did.
Good points I never thought in those terms before, I question if the writers were intending to make the federation aggressor's or just failed in making the federation victims of an aggressor.
Me seeing DS9: Blow up the damn wormhole!!!
Blow the darn thing !! Every quadrant in the galaxy has at least 70.000.000.000 stars!! to hell with DS9, the bajoran's and their dreams of being relevant!! the entire federation, the quadrant at a whole it's at risk!!
**Wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant opens**
Starfleet: *I T ' S F R E E R E A L - E S T A T E.*
Defiant was the first federation ship built solely for war. The other ships there may be warships, but it's not their only purpose. The Defiant doesn't has science stations, holo-decks, or any other creature comforts.
I want too know are you officially taking the position that having a fleet of science and exploration ships that can fight when needed is better than doing exploration with a fleet of dedicated war ships? Is not scaring the unknown enemy into war actually saving more lives than you lose when a ship with civilians on board gets blown up?
I find your thoughts on this very interesting . It has been a while since i watch D S 9 .
To me, we have a classic example of a preventive hegemonic war, however with the complication that both powers here consider themselves the hegemon.
As background information: hegemonic war refers to a conflict between a hegemon, or largest/dominating power, and an uprising power threatening the hegemon's status. Often, the hegemon will try to contain their opponent and slow their rise, for example by imposing policies or sanctions on them or even engaging in preventive war before the rising power's might exceeds that of the hegemon.
Here, of course, we have the sudden connection of two formerly distinct places with their own hegemons. Both see the other as a threat, both consider themselves the only legitimate power in their territory and believe they also have the right to colonize the other's space.
They are both trying to destroy or at least significantly weaken the other, just with different measures. Starfleet acts more sublime, by colonizing empty planets in Dominion space or secretly aiding other governments with actions that negatively affect their enemy. The Dominion, on the other hand, more aggressively retaliates, which not only weakens Starfleet's power due to the destruction of ships but also serves as deterrence.
The original understanding of the hegemonic stability theory and hegemonic wars as a central part of it mentions that the ultimate goal of a hegemonic conflict is to find an agreement on who holds more power, that is on who should be the next hegemon. These wars are often large-scale, involve other powers taking sides and end with severe destruction and shifts in the distribution of power. The Dominion War ticks all these boxes.
Long story short: the problem is that both powers were unsure about the might of their opponent, tried to contain each other, and ultimately engaged in conflict to sort their disagreement. Military conflict might have been avoidable, but for both sides to provoke hostile interactions was the logical step.
(Now I feel like I started college to debate fictional politics on UA-cam. Oh well.)
It's interesting to note that when we FINALLY encounter a representative of the Dominion, we get the following bit of dialogue:
"Commander Sisko will serve as an example of what happens to anyone who interferes with the Dominion."
"What kind of interference are you talking about?"
"Coming through the Anomaly is interference enough. Unless you wish to continue to offend the Dominion, I suggest you stay on your side of the Galaxy."
Later, we do get a line stating that the New Bajor colony, along with a number of ships, were destroyed for "violating Dominion territory," but that is apparently separate from Sisko's 'crime' of interfering.
Further, we know the Dominion was aware of the Federation, and had plans for their eventual contact in another 200 years or so, which was altered by the discovery of the wormhole; if the Gamma Quadrant opening had actually been IN Dominion territory, isn't it plausible that the Dominion would have reacted more aggressively against an apparently immediate threat? Their actions seem far more consistent with observing and contacting a potential threat than with defending their territory from an actual invasion. In fact, I would argue that Dominion claims of territory at that point were part of their effort to study and destabilize the Alpha Quadrant powers--and I would argue that this is supported by the Dominion's actions when their Cardassian territory IS threatened by the Federation, via mining the wormhole.
Good point.
I think with the later seasons as Section 31 became known and pressure was put on Starfleet that DS9 did show Starfleet wasn't totally benign.
It's quite easy to believe that Section 31 was pushing Starfleet into a more passive aggressive stance than normal to goad the Dominion into action before they were ready and using everyone involved as pawns to do so. It's not immediately noticeable because it's not meant to be noticeable.
3:43-3:48 warships? Galaxy glass power, Miranda massacres, (no Khan), constitution's center solo fire arc (no bloody A...), and ambassador class based on some part explodium. Aries and defiant class are more warshippy imo. DS9- encroachment on the gamma quadrant. 5 season penalty, let's watch.
Very valid points to be fair.
Glad you enjoyed
This is why the Cardassians were the best villians. A great example is Gul Dukat. He's evil, but sometimes you sympathize with him and he's not always wrong.
Just come it to the time when a human colony was set up in Shelliack space without permission. They opened negotiations first. Also I believe the UFP did something similar to the Tamarians. I think the Dominion was justified because Sisco didn't know any First Contact procedures. I mean, they should have had a specialist officer trained just for that.
To be fair, the Federation probably didn't know at first how big Dominion Space was and assumed the Dominion was posturing and Starfleet probably thought if they just dodged the areas they had run into the Jem'Hadar nothing would come of it, then again perhaps the Federation probably felt that to adhere to the Dominion's request would show that they could be bullied and make it open season on the Federation for the Klingon's, Romulan's and Cardassians to do the same. While the Dominion mega story arc had it's faults, it did highlight a historical truth that in war things are not clear cut so far as one side sharing all the blame for events leading to conflict.
I think a combination of reckless exploring and fear of the Borg by the feds, and extreme aggression due to boredom over kicking everyone's asses in the Gemma quadrant by the dominion that fueled the war.
The Defiant was the only ship solely dedicated to war.
Id say that a better argument for Starfleet instigating the war could be made from their actions (or more accurately their conncious inaction) during the events of "the Die is Cast". After all, by that point in the federations relationship with the Dominon both sides knew that the other existed, and both sides knew how to communicate with the other if necessary (although these means were no official channels and would have to involve a star fleet vessel entering dominion space and board a communications relay station). Had Starfleet ordered Sisko and the defiant into the gamma quadrent to warn the dominion about the joint Tal'shiar and Obsidian order fleet heading towards the Omarion Nebula it could have possibly shown the founders that the federation was not looking to challenge the Domions authority in the sector. Instead Starfeet ordered Sisko not to interfere... not to interfere when a fleet of ships headed by the inteligence agencies of two alpha quadrent powers who were not on the best of terms with the federation attacked the home world of the dominion leadership... an attack which if it had played out differently would have result in a retaliation strike by the dominion in the the alpha quadrent, with the first target being the bajoran system (a system which in all regards was a neutral party in the matter) and the federation garrison on DS9.
In the past the federation has gotten involved with the millitary affairs of other cultures to benefit themselves ala Picards blockade along Klingon border searching for cloaked Romulan ships (resulting in Gowron winning the civil war and the klingon empire maintianing its relationship with the federation as opposed to the klingon-romulan alliance which would have developed from a Duras victory), but in this situation their lack of action just proved to the founders that the fedeations claim of peacful co-existence was a lie as, sure the federation may not fire the first torpeedos, but they won't raise a finger to stop the romulans and cardassians from doing so.
The reaction of the dominion was not much different than that of the Sheliak, in the TNG episode. But the DS9 era Federation reacted much differently. This was an excellent, concise handling of the point, Discovery not withstanding ☺️
glad you enjoyed!
On the other hand the Sheliak where handled by "give me my three weeks to evacuate or this peace treaty ends here" aka war.
Theres a few time the dominion spys state they just "helped" the war like factions do what they wanted to do.
Romulan Tal'Shia and cardassian Obsidian order attack.
Klingon war with the cardassians
Klingon battle with the federation.
All the dominion needed to do was whisper "go on do it." To the right people. I don't think the federation were the golden good guys they where suppose to be. They were just better than than the enemy. As for the ferengi thing. They kinda do that stuff on the down low anyway. Romulan ale is illegal in the federation. Yet kinda common.
Starfleet's response is consistent. One or more Federation colony/outposts are attacked send a multi-role Heavy Cruiser, with a captain capable of responding both militarily or diplomatically. (Arena, Balance of Terror)
The Dominion went out of their way to not let anyone know where their borders were. The Feds had heard about them for months and could not learn anything substantive about their members (species or planet). Much like Cestus III, they expanded in because there was no notice that they were in space already claimed by somebody else.
My biggest complaint was the incomprehensible policy after this incident.
My take:
Federation Council meets. It is decided that Vulcan and Tellar will launch a diplomatic envoy (in something along the lines of an Oberth-class) to resolve the matter peacefully. In the mean time, with all contact between the UFP and Dominion going through a choke point, Earth, Centaurus, and Andor will send anything that can be spared from the Romulan, Cardassian, Breen, Tholian, and Tzenkethi borders and Borg defense will be sent to make sure that nothing comes through without their permission. The rest of the council rubber stamps the founders.
Spot on as usual
Well the alternative would be a slow takeover of Alpha and Beta Quadrants by the Dominion.
True..
That’s why I wish they’d been written with a shade of gray. Give us more sympathetic Dominion agents like Kilana and Remat’iklan. Remind us that they liberated the Skreeans from generations of slavery. Bang the drum of their protection of Bajor from the colonial impulses of Dukat’s Cardassia, and do a few other things like that. They can still be dangerous and menacing, but give them just enough in the way of redeeming qualities so that we don’t quite assume that peaceful coexistence is impossible. Introduce that sliver of ambiguity and you’ll no longer be able to justify every Federation provocation, up to and including trying to fight a latter-day Opium War.
A question: Is the war in Discovery the same, as depicted in the fanfilm Axanar?
I'd say no, not at all..
It was a ripoff of the 4 year war that was to be depicted in Axanar.
I so agree it always botherd me! Starfleet really going against their own rules
I agree with you with Starship Down, however, I do disagree with you about the USS Odessy, although it is one of the most powerful ships of the Federation, the Federation needed to project power in order to investigate, I would also argue that there was no Dominion diplomacy with regards to the colonies and ships and that the Dominion ran a simulation of it taking over either the Federation or DS9, I don't remember the details.
How do you think Dr. McCoy got his?
I was under the impression that not all of the quadrant was considered dominion territory. I thought the outskirts weren't under them? Maybe I am mis-remembering?
I would disagree that the Constitution, Miranda and Ambassador classes were warships. The Constitution and Ambassador classes were exploration vessels, and the Miranda was a multi-purpose science vessel.
I was looking back on the deployment of the USS Odyssey as a rapid responder with only a few Galaxy class say 4 or 5 operational Starfleet spread pretty thin let alone off screen several Starfleet ships destroyed off screen so Starfleet had reason to go in lock and loaded
As remember Garek bring up all those missing Starfleet ships so Starfleet had reason heck in the novels there was a Ambassador class built at Bajor perfect and likely deployed to explore the Gamma while not overkill still handle itself as Starfleet encounter with the Borg no idea where they pope up and safe then sorry
FYI the description doesn't show Eckhart's channel
fixed!
FYI: Link to Eckhart's video in desc. is broken
Dax's response says it all. She pretty much said there's no stopping the Federation.
agreed
@@LoreReloaded What's funny is that I didn't notice it as a kid but, seeing it as an adult with life experiences, I was thrown off. All I could think was why is she talking like that? The Dominion's clearly holding the high card here.
👋 awesome videos
Starfleet's actions were reckless. But the Dominion had no idea they sent their most powerful ship.
I like your ideas. You should check, out the center for self governance.
I'll take a look, thanks!
I'd be curious to know how the Federation determines space as neutral. I would imagine they'd use of course physical presence starbases, inhabited planets ext... But I'd also wager to guess they'd take into account density of subspace signals from relays and buoy's. As these devices are needed for navigation and especially communication. Without these devices subspace comms go from taking seconds to days.
My guess is they came out of the wormhole and detected almost no subspace infrastructure in the vicinity. And the dominion was using the 'everything the light touches' mentality of claiming space. The Federation has no compunction about trading or colonies and uprooting coloniest. Since the Dominion had almost no presence and refused to engage the Federation likely fleet no qualms about moving in and negotiating a peace after the learned more about where Dominion space actually began and ended.
Great arguments Lore Reloaded. Spandex TNG Starfleet would've been more diplomatic. Post-Wolf 359 Starfleet is more reckless, more dangerous. Once again, thank you Q for "Q Who."
I do agree with you Starfleet antagonized the Dominion
OMG Yes Finally! I've looked before for videos that were critical of the politics of Ds9. I read an article in a magazine once that put the argument that the Federation were the bad guys of DS9. I wish I'd read it properly and kept it because I can't remember what was in the article and what I added to the argument watching DS9, but you can go episode by episode and see things from another point of view. I mean, the whole thing ends with the Federation attempting genocide on its enemy! (rouge section - yeah right!). The whole war started after a colony was placed in the backyard of a superpower. How would the US react to an Iranian colony appearing on an island off it's coast? Which is then defended by the most powerful ships in the Iranian navy? Despite the nonsense Picard said about why people make colonies, when in human history has a colony ever been anything but a foothold in territory you're claiming as your own?
"How would the US react to an Iranian colony appearing on an island off it's coast?"
The "shoulds" are more interesting than the "woulds".
I think the first mistake was sending the Odyssey in more or less full combat mode. While I disagree with the reason for sending in the Odyssey, if it had been me, I would have still sent it in, but, very differently. I would have ordered the Odyssey to go in, shields and weapons on standby but no direct agression, broadcasting on all frequencies that they were coming to remove the offending colonies (or what was left of them) from Dominion space. I would also have them broadcasting that they wish to learn what the Dominions borders were to prevent further transgressions. I would have also have had them take a diplomatic envoy and broadcast that as well that any further demands the dominion had about their space and potential federation violations, could be stated in a civilized manner without resorting to violence. We know the Dominion will at least not fire if they feel they don't have to. (See the episode where they send the Defiant, the Federations. . .ehem, "one and only warship" into Dominion space with a sick Odo, broadcasting their peaceful intent/true mission on subspace.) While the dominion did board the Defiant, they never directly engaged it in combat, proving the Dominion could peacefully be dealt with. Upon what i would hope would be peaceful negotiations onboard the Odyssey, I would have then attempted to establish trade with the Dominion through the wormhole and other Diplomatic relationships, offering to ensure that no further hostile transgressions into dominion space occurred by potentially unaware ships, and would have asked to establish a joint controlled Starbase on the Gamma Quadrant side of the wormhole (While also offering the Dominion some sort of station on DS9) So that both sides could monitor traffic through the wormhole and approve/deny it as necessary.
I feel this would have been more like what the Federation would have done with the mindset that they had with the Romulans and Cardassians with the Neutral Zone and DMZ. Despite probably being able to get more out of the agreements, they capitulated massively to get a peace that both sides could "Agree" upon. This is no different imo.
Actually, I never saw the dominion as Moustache twirling villains, see their treatment of Bajor, Play nice and you will be spared. See Weyoun basically censoring Jake Sicko but leaving it at that. But the point is the Dominion seems to claim the entire Gamma quadrant,
One of your previous episode cover how the TNG era Star Fleet is complacent. I think their action wasn't from War Mongering or Stupidity, but from Arrogance. They had the Borg, and they defeated them, the Klingon post Star Trek 6 have been greatly diminished, and what power they had they used to keep the Romulans at bay. The Cardasians are just a side war (much like with the U.S. with Iraq during that time). So they are so focused on exploration and expansion that it never occurred to them that someone with great power didn't want them on their next door. I kinda see it akin to a bunch of hippies who happen to go on your back lawn, smoking dope, and partying without your permission, and get really angry at you if you tell them to leave or you will call the police. The federation became a bunch of hippies, with the power to enforce their way of life, until some one came in and told them to leave and brought in the cops who could do that.
3:45 me: "No Ares?"
canon: "'course not!"
me: * shame *
Whe the deep space9 show ended I looked back on it and suspected that section 31 was pulling strings from the start. Because they realized that the Federation was stagnating. By the time of deep space 9 the Federation had acquired a great deal of technology that they did not seem to be exploiting. I came to the conclusion that section 31 decided that the current Paradigm had to change to end otherwise the Federation would have ended. They had encountered to too many enemies if it did not adapt it would be destroyed.
Possibly off topic question, but is it ever expressly mentioned that the Federation is a democracy in the way that we know it? They are a representative federal republic with a council and a president but who elects them? Is it by popular vote? Is there an electoral college. Are they appointed by member worlds representatives? If so, who appoints those representatives? Who governs the individual world? Are they elected by people or appointed by the Federation. Are there even different political parties in the Federation.
Other franchises like Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica make a big deal about fighting to keep or restore democracy in a war. Even Babylon 5 had an early episode where the characters were debating who to vote for in the Earth presidentisl election. In 50 years of Trek, I can't think of a single scene where a Federation democratic election is taking place. There's no mention of candidates or characters remembering to file absentee ballots by subpace, or anything. I don't know, that seems like a good lore topic to me.
That'd be funny seeing some version of the Death Star in Trek..
I from what I remember it wasnt so much Fleet provoking Dominion as Sisko provoking Dominion.. BUT..
Knowing how we find out the Dominion works.. either militarily or undermining an trying to make THEMSELVES look better. The Dominion I also think was trying to PROVOKE someone into starting a conflict and sisko was the perfect one to provoke into hostile acts. An the Ferengi... being usual underhanded selves couldn't have been helping. Just think what'd happened or happen for a potentially great story if the Federation and Dominion ever tried to be friendly to each other.. But that's raise a question of WHO could unite 2 superpowers and their allies against them across the known universe that neither could beat alone but poses a huge hostile threat to both?? Only 1 or 2 species come to mind.
I'd say personally BOTH sides did plenty and had fundamental flaws that drove them both to make hostile acts.
It is like Han Solo shooting first. At some point, a fight is unavoidable; the Dominion will declare maclunkey, no matter if you relent or not.
The dominion can’t be to far from the worm hole, they are able to get to the founders planet quickly in the series. Also during the series we are told getting information on a battle will take a day at least.
I also find the people saying the dominion has no claim as weird, the dominions claim to the territory is at least as strong as the federations.
Have you hear the theory that the kahrma may have been working for the dominion in the trade deal, to allow the dominion to infiltrator the Alpha quadrant.
I blame Captain Sisko. In the fourth season episode The Visitor, when Captain Sisko is "dead", the war with the Dominion doesn't take place. Granted the Federation has lost Deep Space Nine to the Klingons but there has been no war with the Dominion.