2 things; 1. The weapons platforms were cardassian, as Damar introduced Weyoun to them. 2. The Borg wouldn’t have to recover from anything, they still had thousands of cubes and millions of drones. 10 cubes is a drop in the bucket.
@@RobertZdarsChin She could not. Most of the time, we saw Voyager RUNNING away from the Borg or barely getting away. The Tactical Cube they engaged was with 7's help for one thing and for the sole purpose of acting as a distraction to get the away team on board. It wasn't until the final two parter the ship got the deployable armor and transpasic torpedo technologies allowing them to deal with the cubes far more effectively... but even 1000 cubes would require 1000 torpedoes... and what's to say the Collective wouldn't have adapted by the time Voyager destroyed say 100 or even 500 cubes?
@@deksroning125 Not true at all. They even invented a Tactical borg cube because the cubes had long since ceased to be a threat due to the large number of Borg we see easily defeated by Janeway. PS the Tactical Borg Cube is easily defeated as well
@@RobertZdarsChin the Tactical cube Voyager engaged was barely phased. The ship assaulted the cube just so they could introduce sufficient shield fluctuation so the away team could align their transporters from the Delta Flyer and beam into the cube. Also, Voyager and the resistance Borg sphere both engaged the Tactical Cube as a way to try to rescue the away team, but if you also paid any attention, you would know that the Queen ordered the self-destruct of the cube in question which collapsed its shields and allowed Voyager to beam the away team back. Seriously, didn't you even WATCH the episodes in question, or do you just like saying 'Voyager wattered down the Borg' just because its a commonly acceptable myth? The Borg sphere Voyager engaged in one episode and managed to get away from was because they beamed and armed photon torpedo onto the Brunali vessel and detonated it when it passed the Sphere's shield. We already know torpedoes can do massive damage if they explode inside Borg ships... so the fact it only caused 'moderate' damage to the Sphere, and the fact Voyager then ran immediately to avoid pursuit, shoots down the theory Voyager was dropping the Borg like flies. It was TNG movie 'First Contact' that introduced the concept of the Queen and made the collective prone to mistakes.
1 problem I need to point out... Guinan said this about the Borg, “When they come, they’re going to come in force. They don’t do anything piecemeal!” This kind of means the Borg would send an overwhelming armada to deal with the Dominion.
@@krane15 historically they sent 1 cube through time. Not exactly full force. If we want to go by lore, those cubes can literally one shot the Enterprise, but it never happened to picard or janeway. We saw it happen it wasn't a line drop, in later episodes the borg cubes fire weaker lasers the Enterprise could tank. The borg cube has no navability. They dont turn, or flip around in a space battle, they take every hit head on, dampening them with shields. The dominion would win.
@@c97x That might be believable except for two things: First, the Borg are the collective minds of thousands of races. Even with the Vorta that serve as the generals, the Dominion is just a single race. Second, even thought the Jem'Hadar are willing to commit suicide in order to win; and can cause a considerable amount of damage to a Borg cube, the Borg would eventually adapt to their disruptor weapons and fighting tactics rendering them no longer a threat. Also, remember that a Cube is massive, self-repairing, and can sustain a considerable amount of damage and still operate. Although the Borg would sustain a considerable loss initially, they would eventually return and easily win.
Bingo. The Borg lost hundreds of cubes, spheres, and quite a few planets in the war against 8472, and they still weren't even close to being annihilated.
@@krane15 No they didn't. They were losing for a while, until the the help from voyager allowed them to halt 8472's advance. And in spite of all the losses they took early on, their presence in the Delta quadrant was barely diminished at all.
@@SirDankleberry How is that in any way relevant? The entire purpose of the example is to show that losing a few cubes is a small cost. The example shows that.
Yes I thought of that as well, I think it would come down to how difficult it is and how good drones they make. They would definitely assimilate a few just for good measure but after that they may just not consider them being worth the effort and simply kill them.
@@meyaenyo2593 - Ketracel White isn't a mental addiction, it's a physical one built into Jem'Hadar at the genetic level (If I remember the DS9 Episode correctly). Without it, their bodies cease to function. However, Borg Nanites might be able to synthesize the compounds necessary. Kind of a "War of the MacGuffins" the way I see it.
The Borg is a collective, so I always thought sending a single cube was an amazing tactic, a cube is big and scary and everything you do to that single cube will be adapted to by all Borg. This would happen unbeknownst to the Dominion. They will calculate what is needed and the job would be done.
I think the reason why the Borg only send one cube is because they do not want to assimilate a race that may help them evolve. "If you beat one of our cubes, we learn and adapt - when we think you learned, we will send one Cube again to evolve. We will always evolve, you won't, sooner or later you won't be able to defend yourself against one cube and than we will assimilate you to come closer to perfection." That's my head cannon.
There was that episode from Voyager where they learned about slipstream drive. The dude was trying to deliver Voyager crew to the Borg. He said that his people had eluded the Borg. After the war with the fluidic space aliens, the Borg surround his people with hundreds of ships.
Bashir didn't almost do it. That was the great tragedy in the end. There is no way to cure. The Jem'Hadar who beat his addiction was a genetic abberration who was simply created already able to beat his addiction. Dominion Bio-science is leagues ahead of the Borg.
@@Theorphan81 Bashir's efforts were sabotaged by O'Brien, he was close to curing the Jem Hadar, it's just that he couldn't do it fast enough in those specific circumstances.
The Borg possesses the technical knowledge of thousands of species. I'd say they have a fair shot of finding some sort of solution to the Ketracel issue.
@@TheDetailsMatter The Borg don't research or do genocide, they assimilate and use existing knowledge. You can't assimilate the Vorta as they'll kill themselves, and the Jem'Hadar know little about the Founders. The Founders would simply hide as they always do, and produce endless waves of Jem'Hadar to board Borg cubes and destroy the vessels from inside. Borg cubes are stronger than Dominion ships, but Jem'Hadar are perfectly happy to board and raid cubes whereas Federation officers could and would never do that.
@@theredscourge All quite true right up to the last statement. The Federation has never shown reluctance to board and explore a cube. They seem to have this arrogant belief they'll be ignored as long as they aren't perceived as a direct threat. This has been how much of what is known about the Borg was learned, as well as how Locutis (Picard) was rescued, and how Annika Hansen became 7 of 9. So if Section 31 sent an operative to do something aboard a cube, and he was caught and assimilated, the collective would then possess all of Section 31's compartmentalized knowledge of dirty deeds done on behalf of the Federation, including the DNA exploit they found in Odo's fluid matrix, and the cure discovered by Dr. Bashir. Manipulation of that knowledge would enable them to either assimilate or annihilate the Founders at their leisure.
The only reason the Borg didn’t send dozens of Cubes to assimilate the Federation is this.. Paramounts budget per episode and the writers knew it would be the end of the franchise. Period.
But let get real the Borg would (now cheap CGI is around) would just wipe the dominion out in a matter of days due to superior fire power and the fact that after a few rounds they adapt and superior everything would arse rape any other species. And as for 8472 I call bullshit voyage retrocon lets nurff the Borg, Data states they thousand of years ahead of us
The Borg do invade in numbers but they don't do it very often because this binds a lot of resources. I forgot name of the species those guys with a big head in Voyager but basically what he was saying that they rebelled a lot of attacks from the Borgs until one day they came in numbers and crushed them. In the last episode of Voyager the Federation got extremely pumped up as a thread to the Borg and I personally thought its time for a really big war and a race for new technology basically a cliffhanger and after this no new show :(
The story was told in the novels that came after Voyager. There it was said, that the destruction of the Borg-Center by Admiral Jainway crippled the Borg. However, the Borg startet an invasion of the Federation a few years after Voyager returned to earth. The Novels are called "Destiny". It's a trilogy
@@FEDEXLuchs But The Founders can just change into Species 8472, and at least not be able to be assimilated. They could also infiltrate and destroy Borg cubes from the inside.
infiltrate? nope, u cant make urself look like a borg then go around wrecking things, the borg is a collective remember, that changeling would be caught and tested upon until assimilated. Species 8472 managed to keep from assimilation since they were never captured, if they were the borg would find a way
The federation at Wolf 359 didn't do kamikaze runs. A warp core breach at point blank range does more damage than a few phasers and torpedoes. Also, the Dominion ships could bypass Federation shields completely. If that works on Borg cubes too, it would only take a few kamikaze fighters to take out a cube.
@@Bonez0r The Borg would be familiar with the type of energy the Dominion employs in its weapons, the first hit and they'd adjust their defenses to known phased polaron weapons which, if not a perfect adaptation to Dominion weapons would certainly reduce their effectiveness. Seriously I don't think LR thought this hypothetical through. The way the Borg assess threats would make them pile on the Dominion *hard* and is precisely why Starfleet got such a long reprieve; the Borg underestimated them, they underestimated their resolve and ability to adapt and by the time the Borg take them seriously, it's too late, they're doomed.
Lore Reloaded My your beloved canine REST IN PEACE! My 11 year old cat passed away earlier this year. I swore that I'd never have another pet. I now have 2 new kittens! Peace and long life!🖖
@Jeremiah Boyd Because you are taking her too literally. It's more than slightly unreasonable to suggest that she genuinely meant that there was no *theoretical* substance it can't produce. Merely that for all practical purposes, that isn't a likely situation. You could say, for example "A replicator can create any food a person might need." While sure, yes, it is technically true that they could encounter an alien that eats an abstract concept like fear or something,, which the replicator can't produce, that is clearly not what the speaker would be referring to.
@Jeremiah Boyd Have you watched Star Trek before? It is entirely possible that the nanites could do that, just as replicators can reasonably be said to produce "any" food, and the holodeck could be used to reproduce "any" environment. Sure, it is ridiculous to make a claim like this in the real world, but in Star Trek, they have universal translators. That's a device that in real time translates languages it has never encountered before. That is FAR more silly than the nanites which are in function merely very small replicators, a technology that already exists in universe.
@@JD-xz1mx If the Jem'Hadar are composed of nucleic acids and proteins, then it would be easy to genetically engineer them. There is research dating back to 2018, showing that adenoviruses can be used to genetically engineer humans.
We're told that a Borg cube can maintain combat effectiveness even when 78% of it has been destroyed. Given that smaller Jem'Hadar ships are about the size of the Defiant, it's hard to imagine that even if twelve of them rammed the cube at the same time it would be more damaged than that. I know that a warp core breach is pretty devastating, but given the incredible hardiness of a Borg ship it's hard to imagine they would do anything more than blast chunks out of the cube's surface that would be regenerated in time.
yea that's true bud, about the regenerative abilities of the Borg, but the Enterprise was brought up close and personal, a couple of years before Wolf 359, given the fact the Borg are all interconnected, and the Enterprise was able to inflict some serious damage on that cube, you'd have thought the Borg collective would have a retained memory of that event!
@@MAZE4 They did. The Enterprise's phasers put massive holes in the cube during the initial encounter. Far bigger holes than they would create in Alpha Quadrant designs. Borg shields are initially _useless._ By the time of Wolf 359, however, thanks to the initial fight against the Enterprise, Borg shields resisted Federation weapons to the same level as the Federation's rival powers, resulting in similar levels of damage to the cube. But because there was so much cube, and vital systems were buried deep within it, they simply couldn't cause enough damage.
I think that the Borg would show a lot of interest in the Founders once it was realized they could shapeshift. They could interpret this ability as an advancement over a mono-form existence. Their biggest problem would be the ability to assimilate a Founder. Both the Obsidian Order and Section 31 had access to avenues of scientific study. The Borg learn by assimilation and, as shown by Species 8472, if the Borg could not assimilate they could not learn. Thus, if their initial first few attempts at assimilation failed, I doubt they would ever be able to accomplish that feat. It does beg one question, however. If a Founder was assimilated, would the Jem H’addar destroy it or would they still see it as a Founder? If the second happened, then the Borg Founder would be able to order a surrender of the Jem H’addar.
mhsbear2k That's certainly a good point. That Changeling could possibly be to the Dominion what Picard was to the Federation as Locutus, only more effective at facilitating the Borg entry
The answer would come down to "what the writers want". It stands to reason that The Founders would be succeptable to Assimilation since Borg Nanites operate on a sub-molecular level and since Changelings were once solid, non-morphogenic life forms . Species 8472 was impossible for the Borg to assimilate because of their extra-dimensional origin and "alien-ness" which is something the Changelings don't have; they still follow the "Galactic Standard" (as laid out in The Next Generation episode "The Chase - as an aside, the Female Precursor in the message in "The Chase" is played by the same actress and bears an uncanny resembelence to a Changeling...could mean something, could mean nothing) so there is no particular reason to assume Assimilation would be ineffective.
Let us all be thankful that the Borg don't innovate new things...or they may well take note of the founders and how their link works, how their bodies work, and do away with drones, and instead opt to create bodies made entirely of nanoprobes. "Oh no! They phasered me! I'll have to create another thousand nanoprobes from something to replace that!" and then proceed to turn into a wave of billions to trillions of nanoprobes rushing forward on all targets for assimilation, penetrate them through every pore of their skin, every conceivable entry point, and have the assimilations completely done before those nanoprobes reintegrated into a drone form.
There actually were Jem'hadar that were turned into borg that are shown many times in the following series; the borg would have used them as replacement drones and as for any biological needs they would just replace it with cybernetics....that is what they do. The year of wolf 359 was actually several years prior to the events of DS9 and Bajor was still not free at that time. The Borg could have sent a single Tactical Cube into the region and from there the unwitting Dominon would be crushed.
Well keep in mind the Dominion was on it's own able to take on the entire Alpha Quadrant, and only a single Alpha Quadrant power managed to destroy the Borg Everytime they showed up.
And your conclusion that the Borg wouldn't adapt as well to dominion weapons is based on what ? They have assimilated 1000,s of species who knows what kind of weapons some of them species had
@Patriarch Of The Sith the Borg can adapt to anything and I think if the federation can adapt there shields to cope with Dominion weapons iam sure the Borg can
@Patriarch Of The Sith "The Borg would have fits trying to adapt to the side effect." How on earth do you come to this conclusion? Do you have any basis at all for determining whether or not this is beyond the capability of the Borg? If this is the case, why didn't the Federation start creating Polaron weapons after encountering them in the Dominion for the purpose of fighting the Borg? Why do people feel the need to simply make up "facts" to support a "who would win" argument between fictional characters?
@Patriarch Of The Sith yes I know they don't use shields they do have an electromagnetic field they adapt to phaser frequency and modulation which Dominion weapons still have after a few shots they would adapt to them as easy as they do federation
@Patriarch Of The Sith The Federation was eventually able to adapt to Dominion shields and weapons, at least to the point of making them less effective. You don't think the Borg could? It's what they DO.
@Patriarch Of The Sith for the 1st few shots no doubt but they would adapt as stated previously Dominion weapons when fired still have a frequency and modulation soon as the Borg adapt to that frequency and modulation they become useless the only way I can think about the Jem,hadar standing a chance would be to beem onboard a Borg ship with a large explosive device near the Borg's main power core seeing as Dominion transporters can beem through anything but even that might only work a couple of times before the Borg block there transporter signals then it's game over
Definitely not. In a space war? Sure. The borg could maybe win that. But a single changeling letting themselves get assimilated in the form of a solid would literally obliterated the Borg so fast they wouldn't know what happened. People forget how crazy OP changelings are, given Odo was pretty amateur at being one. They can travel at warp and replicate machines to a cellular level for crying out loud. You wouldn't even need paranoia with the Borg; even a single drone can screw over an entire cube. And they'd think bigger than that; the Changelings would be giving the collective directives inside of a year.
@@BlazingOwnager borg would detect changlings as fake borg since they wouldn't be hooked into the collective. Yes borg can't assimilate them so they would destroy the threat
@@darkmatter1152 Yes and no. I see no reason that a Changeling couldn't let you assimilate it's body then, whenever it wanted, just spit out the implants. Same way they suck in blood to spill out on command. People really, really underestimate how wildly overpowered changelings are. They appear as whatever they turn into on sensors and they can literally turn into the air (or at least fog). Hell they could literally exist as an implant ON a borg, rather than even being an entire creature. The borg have never dealt with anything like them and I don't think they'd stand a chance. ED: I'm not even sure the Borg would beat the Dominion in space-combat. I mean big dramatic moment in First Contact: Worf talking about ramming the cube. Dominion: 2nd battle would be like 1,000 Jem'Hadar fighters all on suicide rams loaded with quantum torpedoes as an opening move.
@@BlazingOwnager in a space battle Borg win easy more firepower, adapt to Polaron and torps, also wat more ships and 3 miles cubed each cube, dominion fighters would be stopped before they hit cubes
@@darkmatter1152 How? How exactly are the Borg going to stop 1,000 fighters from ramming them? Physical attacks seem to consistently hurt the borg and they just don't have that kind of firepower. They can obliterate small fleets of big ships but huge fleets of small ones is something they're poorly equipped to fight.
Sorry, I disagree. The Borg are masters of adaptation while dominion only know force. The dominion doesnt think outside of standard paradigms as do the federation. Once they find the weaknesses of each ship, the dominion is lost. Also, recall the Borg ship regenerated even when chasing the Enterprise at warp 9. That takes tons of energy, but more important as the dominion has to reclone and reship, the damaged cube would be functional faster and 100% before the dominion could re-arm.
Counterpoint: One changeling gets on a borg ship. The whole collective is run by the founders in about a month.. The Dominion doesn't "only know force." It knows very much exploiting the weaknesses in your society. The Borg have absolutely no sense to question things; a captured drone telling them to sleep blows up their whole ship. It wouldn't be a slaughter, it'd be a war won without anyone even knowing it ended.
The dominion become what they fight to learn and manipulate. They clearly have a science mind at the very least in biology since they created / modified two species as their administration and army. Their war machinery matches the force of a whole quadrant. Who wins depends if the soup can be assimilated and with a batch of nanites the dominion falls. Or a founder changes into a borg, learns of the borg queen, and changes into her, and the borg fall.
@@BlazingOwnager counter argument: Unfortunately for the founders, their greatest strength of infiltration and manipulation of society is useless against the Borg. Disguise as drone and do what? Take a selfie with the queen? It's not only that one looks like a Borg, one must act like one. And oh yea, be one with the collective. Manipulating society fails as well. Disguise as a drone to infiltrate the Borg and gain some secrets? Have fun talking a drone who does not talk back. Do some terrorist attacks? Also fail. Using fear as a weapon to use against a society with no emotions? And whatever damage done to the ship is easily repaired. The Dominion strategy only works in the alpha quadrant because they relied on their greatest weapon they have, fear. But the Borg is different. It's a whole new ballgame. And because the Borg also has their own secret weapon, unity. Both the Dominion and the Borg use force to control, the difference is that the Borg's way of doing it is just a little bit better than the founder's. Divided they fall, united they stand as one.
@@shawn092182 Your counter-points sort of fail here, because even a bunch of po-dunk Star Fleet people can infiltrate the Borg. If you are able to interface as a drone, as we've seen repeatedly in the series, you can spread ideas into the collective. I cannot think of a more direct way to manipulate a society, in particular if done gradually. Just plug in, and start introducing ideas like "The Founders are gods." Frankly they'd have the borg in their pocket almost immediately. You don't need fear to manipulate people and the Dominion doesn't rely on it. They adapt to whatever they are dealing with. i.e. when they replaced Martok, they weren't trying to cause fear in the Klingons, they were trying to feed into their bloodlust instead. With the borg it might be as simple as directing them elsewhere to assimilate.. ED: The easiest character to replace is the Borg Queen. That character kinda wrecked the Borg by giving them a huge, huge vulnerability they didn't have before. But they all follow her will unquestioningly.
@@BlazingOwnager If the borg actually fell for that and thought the founders were 'gods', wouldn't that just result in the founders taking over and the borg assimilating the entire dominion? The founds would actually be fine with that, if they are in charge of the borg and everyone is a borg they would have absolute control, which is what they want. The borg doesn't actually care who is in charge either, they just want to assimilate everything. It seems like a natural alliance. Man, that might be the worst nightmare for everyone else. The war resulting in the founders and borg joining forces.
I can only see a Borg victory. That have superior technology and a numbers advantage. The Dominion’s only hope would be it make the war too costly for the Borg to want to finish it.
Nope, they tried a second time in First Contact. When that didn't work, they went back in time, but it failed too. Also, in Voyager they planned to assimilate Earth by detonating a biogenic charge into its atmosphere, slowly assimilating Earth before anyone gets wise. Don't know what happened to that plan.
David Arrowsmith but see that is just it. The Borg never outside of the Delta Quadrant use more than one ship. This scenario had to take libertys with them using ten. The borg seem to really not care that much about the other quadrants. They send ships out to assimilate new worlds and tech but at the end of the day that is to improve the collective. They don't really seem to care about expanding outside the delta quadrant so far.
I think this would go in favor of the Borg, as they will have seen polaron tech before. Voyager showed us a slew of civilizations that used tech vastly superior to the Dominion in every area, so when that first cube encountered the first Dominion response, they would have an almost complete picture of what adaptations they needed to nullify the Dominion. I also believe the Borg would immediately re-write Jem'Hadar genetics so the ketracel white addiction is gone. Even if they couldn't assimilate already functional Jem'Hadar or Vorta, if they wanted them, they merely need to assimilate the cloning facilities, and frankly assimilating the cloning facilities would be the primary goal once they became known to the Borg, because then they could simply manufacture drones in whatever quantity they needed. No prior attachments, no internal resistance, a collective made of drones that never had lives outside of being drones...it would be the end of free life anywhere.
They might be able to repair the damage to the Jem'hadar. I wonder if it would be worth it though? Maybe? Seems like a lot of work with out that much gain.. Just assimilate other populations and use them.
Whether they'd fix the Jem'Hadar or not...meh...who knows, depends on whether they'd view them as superior tactical drone material, the real prize would be the cloning tech itself, for reasons outlined in my first comment.
how can the Borg assimilate protoplasma come on man it's goo that sentient what would the nanites lock onto in order to control its host I honestly believe that the nanites would be there and it still wouldn't do anything unless it melted them or something
Lore Reloaded I feel that it's highly unlikely the Jem'Hadar get the Kazon treatment. I suspect half indoctrinated, "to the death" engineered shock troops would be highly desirable combat drones. Especially to sent against other Jem'Hadar. Also, while yes, kamakazi attacks might work at first against cubes, I seriously doubt that the Borg would have not experienced that tactic before. Regardless, the idea that the Borg could find the idea of assimilation of cloning facilities and begin cloning "fixed" Jem'Hadar drones could very well create an existential choice for the Collective. They might well decide to embrace the idea... granted of course, that the Dominion'em cloning tech was truly the most advanced the Borg would have encountered to date.
I think the reason the Borg only sent one Cube in first contact is because in the best of both worlds the Borg didn’t lose because starfleet overpowered them but because of Picard being plugged into the collective.
I agree LR's videos are well thought out and presented. Trekker's will always find something to grumble about, it's the nature of the beast. I may not always agree with the analysis, but it is well considered.
Yeah but that was after a few got assimilated and their vast intellectual abilities was found out. That species was probably one of the most valuable they have ever found
@@darude2893 now I don't know about that the more Queen seemed really interested in the human species and they only sent one cube both times, though they were very far away from the Delta quadrant that's true, why did the board seemingly react one way in one situation and differently in a different situation the borg are just so unpredictable like that and I think there's just no way to interpret what their next action will be unless you're directly linked with their hive mind which I'll pass on that.
@@tonebonebgky2 The Queen may have an interest in Humanity but that doesn't mean humans are particularly worthy of assimilation due to their current level of technology. The Borg can take their time at assimilating the Federation, they're in no real rush. On the other hand, Species 116 had very advanced technology that would greatly augment the Borg collective as a whole and that is absolutely worth investing in the sort of force required to ensure immediate assimilation.
Id argue the Borg often cripple you with a few then send a armada But why they didnt to the humans (besides plot) is we are "weaker" but much like the Borg we learn on the fly if we apply ourself And Riker proved Humans can evolve on the fly cuz who we are and our choices arent edged in stone, so assimilating close friends/family serves no tactical advantage over understanding possible strategies In the end, humans are to much risk for no overwhelming reward to the borg Its actually benefits them to observe our culture then assimilate it
The Dominion would not hesitate to use such a program Geordi La Forge came up with to infect a single (captured) borg with the so called "non solvable puzzle". But Captain Picards ethics kept him from doing this, although it has to be said that admiral Nechayev was not happy that Picard did not use this tactic to 'get rid of a mortal threat of the Federation', as she pointed out.
1. I think Picard made the wrong call. Yes Hugh was now an individual, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Because Picard made the call not to infect the Borg, thousands more would die at the Battle of Sector 001, not to mention the assimilation of countless other worlds. However... 2. I agree with Michael Zoran. It would not have worked. For proof, look to the Lore+Borg episodes. When Hugh was reunited with the Collective, his individuality infected the Cube he was on. When the Unimatrix detected this, they severed the connection with that Cube, leaving it to die. Hugh's individuality would have crippled the Borg as easily as the unsolvable puzzle (is individuality and unsolvable puzzle itself?), but the Unimatrix would have cut the Cube off as soon as they detected a mass breakdown.
That was only a theory, I think it's fair to say in hindsight that never would have happened. They may have lost a ship but from Voyager we see they have lost Borg before. It's also a bit absurd that no other race came up with this idea in the hundreds of years the Borg have been attracting worlds. Are Humans really the smartest most creative race they've ever assimilated? The moral dilemma in the TNG episode was real for the crew at the time but the reality is the Borg was never in danger of total destruction. As for this video, while I can agree with most everything, what is ignored is at the end, after "both lose" the Borg can send another cube or two and now easily assimilate all words formerly under Dominion protection/control, whether or not they can assimilate the founders or not, which I don't think they can but I think the Borg would capture some to study using fields preventing them from shape shifting.
according to this comments here definitve are not smartest race. everybody doesnt like voyager everybody talks about voyager but NOBODY(!!!!!) of you watched voyager. but i agree with you. borg were never(!) in danger of total destruction (perhaps vs 8472). if other races have luck/plot armor they CAN do it and they DID it! i think his name was icheb. his people used a by far better method than federation. other races are not known to have "re-assimilated" ex-borg to help them. but this story is about federation. we didnt see in detail how other races defend themself.
Borg assimilates Founder. Founder becomes the new Borg Queen, as its shifting abilities allow it to assimilate the assimilation. That's what I think would happen. The Founders would shrug off the assimilation attempt or they would dominate the assimilation through shifting. The virus that could kill the Founders couldn't kill Odo, so it actually couldn't kill the Founders. It could kill one subsection. Since they are one and the same, in canon we have seen nothing not even the virus that had a chance of eliminating the Founders because Odo would have lived.
@@yaymanyayman6892 I see no reason why the collective would be able to do anything against shapeshifters. What makes you think the collective can do anything against shapeshifters? If the Borg couldn't assimilate Species 8472, what makes you think they could assimilate a being that could morph into Species 8472 at will?
Everyone says that since the Borg can not assimilate a Founder, they would have difficulty defeating the Dominion. True, assimilation is a huge part of the Borg defeating an opponent. However, they can still destroy. Plus, people forget that a huge part of the Dominions tactics to defeating a for is to infiltrate them by having the Founders shapeshift to fit in. This simply would not work on the Borg. True, they would likely be able to obtain the form of a Borg drone, but without being "Plugged in" to the collective, the Borg would either ignore them or destroy them. (Probably ignore)
Since the Changeling would be on the ship to cause a threat, they would kill it or actually try to assimilate the changeling. What the Borg can not assimilate, they destroy. They would probably most likely destroy the Founders' world.
The Borg's overconfidence always wrecks them. If the Federation can outsmart them and the biologically superior Species 8472 can simply smash them, what happens when the Founders intervene directly? They're basically a mix of both the worst elements to the Borg (craftiness and biological superiority). Direct combat? The Borg. The Founders however would end up poisoning the collective from the inside, it would just require they actually get their hands dirty.
@@bestboutgaming3212 I feel like assimilating the founders would be a high priority as the generic information would be extremely valuable to the borg. Meaning they would approach the situation far different than with the federation and humans, which don't really have any unique traits that stand out to be honest.
Dude... I know it's been a while since you posted this video, but as someone who has recently lost a pet, my heart goes out to you. As for your scenario, I think that a Borg/Dominion war would be catastrophic for the Milky Way, in favor of the Borg. I do agree with your assessment, until the second engagement. Here's why: Vorta have been seen to be very individualistic and the odds of the Borg capturing and assimilating a Vorta is extremely high. This would take place during the first engagement, which the Borg would lose. The knowledge maintained by the Borg Collective would now have the knowledge of a Vorta. The Dominion would have no knowledge that a subspace communication link exists between the Cube and the Collective. They blew up the Borg ship, job done. The Borg would hold off before attacking again processing the information gained from the Vorta. On the second engagement, the Borg would see the shapeshifting nature of the Founders a tremendous boon so to gain that advantage they would be prepared to launch Borg directly at the Founders homeworld. Thousands of them. It will only take one Borg to infect the entire collective (with Borg nanites). Any battle after that point is purely a mop-up operation. The Dominion is now controlled by the Borg that grows new drones with the biological distinctiveness of the Founders. In the end, the Borg now have access to drones that can survive in almost any environment and can now form any tool needed to do a job without the energy requirements that personal replicators the Borg normally have. In other words, the power they used to expend is now realloted for more endevors of the Borg Collective.
jaspr1999 well. When the founders shape shift, at least some forms will not stay assimilated (as the nanoprobes likely cannot stay bonded to gas for example)
@@darksol99darkwizard The question boils down to, when nanoprobes are injected to a founder, how fast will they take over consciousness, can the founder turn into gas before that happens? I guess dropping a few nanoprobes in the great link will turn it into the great unimatrix.
Wrong! They can't assimilate the Founders. The Borg can only learn about biological species through assimilation. (As stated by Hugh in TNG) In Voyager they couldn't learn about species 8472, because they were resistant to assimilation. (There simply is no way to assimilate fog or fire with nanites, for example) Janeway also mentioned that the Borg learn through assimilation, not through study. You are also vastly underestimating the Dominion's recources. Even if the Borg would send 10 cubes, the Dominion would just swarm them with hundreds of fighters, taking them out easily, with kamikaze if needed. The Borg wouldn't stand a chance, and would lose interest quickly, as they want to be efficient. It would take vast resources to conquer the Dominion, likely thousands of cubes, and that is simply not their way. The Borg would quickly realize that it would be way more efficient, to assimilate other species first, and expand that way. They have time, they are patient.
I did see that in one of the books a Founder made contact with The Borg and it increased it's own density to crush the nanomachines. It didn't change it's shape but it was still able to destroy the Borg nanomachines. Also I do think that the Borg would show more interest since the species in Dominion Space all see the Founders as either gods or perfect shapeshifters. A race bent on seeking perfection would probably be interested a bit more than usual
You have my greatest sympathies for the loss of your four-legged family member. I'm a Veterinary Technician, I assist with euthanasia on a near daily basis, it's never easy. I'm sure she knew she was loved and had a long and happy life.
You are AWESOME Phlarb ! The three times I had to put a cat down , the doctor and the techs were very sympathetic towards me and understood my loss . They were just wonderful and I'm sure you and your staff are too . GOD Bless . (16 September 2018 1640 hours)
I dont believe the Dominion would stand a chance tbh. Some huge issues you forgot is the Borg have incredible shielding that automatically adjusts itself. The Dominion is weak in the sense that their power comes from a large variety of races and it's not guaranteed they would be willing to fight or maybe even use it as a time to rebel. And i do believe their warriors could be assimilated even with their addiction because you forget they take on ALL races and then "improve them". The most crucial thing is even if they assimilate even one person of importance, from any race, the borg then instantly knows everything that person knows. Tactics, defenses, weaknesses, how their ships, weapons and shields work, locations of everyone and everything. They might simply make a straight charge to the capital home world and wipe the founders out in a single attack, which would doom their entire empire instantly, they are way too dependant on their founders. They rely upon all races combined while the borg works as a flawless single entity. The dominion warriors are strong, yes, but the borg would step on them as if they were children. They can simply push Klingons out of their way, sending them flying and even as strong as data is they are a huge challenge. The dominion warriors might be fanatical, but there were several times they rebelled against the Dominion and some even got rid of their addiction by themselves.
I think they could win against 10 cubes(kamikaze runs) but to say the Borg would be badly weakened by the attack is just a jokes.weve seen in Voyager if the Borg wants something they would send another cubes to over power there opponents.and why they didn't do this against the Federation well it wouldn't make a good tele end of star terk.
The Borg work like increasing difficulty spikes in video games, they send one cube, you destroy it, so they send 10 more, if you managed to defeat those 10 cubes they would send 100 more. It's not a question of who would win, it's how long would the Dominion survive. If 8472 wasn't at war with the Borg , the Borg would have done this to Federation after they defeated Locutus.
The Q aren't afraid of the Borg ... they simply don't want to mess around with them because they are already a ''messy'' element in Galactic (and possibly even Q) affairs. I personally think that the Q did in the past 'use' the Borg in some way (and I have my own theories as to how) and they regret it, but they are either unable or unwilling to undo what they did, so they developed a non interference principle. They are probably simply exhibiting a ''we learn from our mistakes'' philosophy.
Talyn Ó Dochartaigh - doubt it. It's far more likely they are afraid of the consequences of meddling in Borg affairs. The consequences to galactic history. The Q (as a continuum) have a very different morality and ethos than the Q who visits the Enterprise.
The only time the Borg would send 100 cubes if they think the species is worthy of assimilation and if they caused big damage and were a big threat to the Borg the Borg would sent hundreds or thousands and they would f*** the Dominion 😂
I don't know about that. This video actually is correct in saying that we've only seen the Borg attack one ship at a time. I believe the largest reason for that is distance. Earth is really far away from Borg space. I believe that in the Voyager episode Endgame, the Borg were planing on swarming Earth through the network hub that was hidden in the nebula. Janeway crippled the Borg for a good century or so. No one ever said anything about the Borg not advancing beyond the Delta Quadrant. I simply think its that space is so big that the Borg hasn't really had much of a chance to go beyond the Delta Quadrant. The only reason the one or two ships did was because Q provoked them during TNG.
@@jamescannon2587 There is the question that we barely know how the Borg reacted when threatened by an empire sized threat in the Delta quadrant. The video ends with both sides lose but ignores the fact the Borg could send a 3rd wave of Cubes and the Dominion Empire would be exhausted. That is only a fraction of the Borg empire that faced them.
Borg resources are not endless. especially the biological ones. those eventually will die of old age, then they turn into Zombies with plenty Borg implants
In my head cannon, the Dominion and the Borg were already at war during the time of DS9, or would have been within a few decades as their respective territories continued to expand, but both sides had such vast territories that even major campaigns against each other would not have much impact on life on the other ends of respective territories. It's been confirmed behind the scenes that the Dominion already knew about the Federation long before the Federation knew about the Dominion, and were preparing for a conflict in the future. Only the surprise discovery of the Bajoran Wormhole forced the two great powers into conflict ahead of schedule. If the Dominion knew about and were preparing for conflict with the Federation long in advance of their actual direct meeting, it stands to reason that the Dominion also knew about the Borg, and had plans for that confrontation as well, long before such a confrontation took place. Remember that many in the Dominion didn't really know that they truly served the Founders, or the Dominion itself, and the Dominion was constantly spreading its influence through various representatives. Even the Vorta were rarely seen. How much would the Borg really know about what they were up against, assimilating races along the periphery? Meanwhile the Founders were sending out baby Changelings to scout the whole galaxy, for hundreds of years, maybe thousands. The Dominion was founded 10,000 years before the events of DS9. That's plenty of time, even at low warp speeds, to find out about the Borg, even before the Borg became a major galactic power. The conclusion I would reach is that the Borg would be defeated by the Dominion, probably easier than the Federation beat the Borg at nearly every confrontation. The Borg are formidable, but they have plenty of weaknesses. Meanwhile the Founders can use all sorts of crafty bioweapons to attack the biological component of the Borg Collective, and send seemingly endless waves of Jem'Hadar, who have no compunctions about kamikaze attacks and other extreme methods of resistance the Borg would have a lot of trouble contending with. We also saw that the Dominion had many technologies, including weapons and shields, that were quite advanced and unlike anything else the Federation had ever seen before, and I'm including technologies seen by Voyager traveling through the Delta Quadrant where the Borg seemingly originated. Dominion transporter technology, that could beam across lightyears, would be a significant tactical advantage over the Borg, especially when paired with their understanding of biological weapons. In the end, the answer is kind of obvious, isn't it? The Dominion proved to be the biggest existential threat to the Federation ever seen, delivering serious defeats to the Federation many times with only a fraction of their total forces, and the Borg got beat by the Federation pretty much every episode in which they appeared. The Dominion was only defeated by the Federation through a literal deus ex machina. Even if the Borg were able to assimilate Dominion technologies, and adapt to Dominion weapons and tactics, the Dominion would never actually be defeated. I would posit that the Founders themselves would by nature of their biology be highly resistant to assimilation, and they would likely see the Borg coming and escape any direct attack on their homeworld(s), regardless. As shapeshifters, I don't believe they had serious ties to any one world, and would happily move out of the way of any Borg expansion until they could devise a permanent solution and defeat the Borg outright (likely a bioweapon). The genetically engineered cleverness of Vorta scientists, and the natural cleverness of the Founders themselves, would surely be at least as good as whichever Starfleet officers happened to go up against the Borg in a given Star Trek episode. I disagree that the Dominion would be crippled and fractured by an invasion of 10 Borg Cubes, even as I agree with the initial scenario posed for a first contact between the two powers. The fact is, we've seen in DS9 the sheer speed of Dominion shipyards and soldier cloning facilities. The Dominion is going to have no problem at all maintaining its strength to enforce its rules on the other races in its territory, even if they take major losses on a routine basis in an extended war between the Borg and Dominion. The video brings up a very good point, though, which is would the Borg even want to assimilate the Dominion? Most of the races are of minor significance, technologically, as the Founders kept their various annexed civilizations at a level that posed little threat to the Founders themselves. The Vorta of course would commit suicide rather than be assimilated, and the Jem'Hadar, while formidable, are merely soldiers with very little in the way of culture and technology of their own that would be valuable to the Borg. They'd make excellent tactical drones, and the Borg would surely be able to cure them of the Ketracel White addiction, but the real prizes of the Dominion from a Borg perspective are the Vorta and Founders. I think the Dominion would make it so difficult for the Borg to win those prizes, that it might as well be impossible. The Borg would have to commit so many forces that they simply would not be willing to commit. As the video points out, it's not really in their nature to wage total war like that. My vision of a 100-years-after-VOY galaxy is one of three major powers, the Federation, the Dominion, and the Borg, locked in a sort of permanent stalemate, with very few minor powers not yet absorbed by one of the three. There might be periodic skirmishes as each tries to gain the upper hand, but any serious push in one direction would expose one's flank, so it would remain a three-way cold war. Maybe that's not so exciting, but it does feel the most realistic when you consider the weaknesses each power has, and the risks any of them would take of betrayal should an alliance take place between any two (e.g. Scorpion, Part II). Their ideologies are simply incompatible with each other. I see the Borg as being actually the least technological by that point, not being inventive independently. Once they fall far enough behind technologically, they're not going to be able to catch up through innovation, and assimilation will become increasingly difficult if not impossible. We saw in Endgame how technology only 26 years more advanced than the Federation at the end of VOY was seemingly totally superior to that of the Borg, and capable of effectively defeating assimilation. The Dominion would likely come up with their own solution to the assimilation problem. The Borg would spend its days sending occasional single Cubes at various border systems to test defenses, but little else. The Dominion is capable of total war, and would likely have the most technology, but they would struggle to engage the Borg because they seek order and dominance, and they'd need to conquer the entire hive mind of the Borg to actually have a victory, and the Borg would be too numerous to ever really conquer. The choice would be to simply wipe out the entire Borg Collective, and that would be too great a challenge, I think, even for the Dominion. The Dominion would probably focus its efforts on subverting the Federation, but the Federation having already fought one war with them would be on the lookout for Changelings and so again it would be very difficult. I envision a very large neutral zone and a lot of monitoring stations between the Federation and Dominion, making open hostilities virtually impossible without catastrophic response opening the Dominion up to the Borg. The Federation of course is all about the Prime Directive and I don't see them pursuing war against the Dominion or the Borg except if attacked first, and then they are unlikely to engage in the sort of genocidal total war that would be required to seriously expand into either power's territory. If anything, the Federation would pursue an effort of de-assimilating the Borg, which the Borg would probably respond to by blowing up their own ships, so the Federation would give up that plan. Then they'd try to apply political and cultural pressure on the Dominion to try to turn it into a happy-go-lucky democratic society, which the Dominion would respond to with more genetic engineering and internal oppression to keep everyone in line. Then a bunch of Starfleet officers would be courts-martialled for their Prime Directive-breaking schemes and everyone would go back to their crazy and dangerous scientific experiments and out-of-control holodeck programs.
three powers huh what about those dinosoar's that evolved on prehistoric earth and left earth millions of years ago as a spacefaring race that voyager finds in the delta quadrant they where more powerfull seeming than the borg wouldnt they pose a power beond the borg and the dominion
According to Daniels, there are two major powers in 26.century: Alliance of Federation+Klingons (probably without Romulans) and Sphere Builders. There are also Tholians. Romulans with help of Future guy can be very technology advanced but low in numbers. Or anyone else like in Star Trek Online (Iconians) or A.I. (The Control or V'Ger).
🛸 Personally, I give the edge to the Borg. The Borg have often used multiple cubes, sending one, followed by multiple, followed by still more. They have the resources to do that almost indefinitely, while Dominion resources are apparently much less. Assimilation is quick, so (assuming the Borg would even want to assimilate the Vorta or Jem'Hadar - neither very impressive) there would be little time to commit suicide and the collective is setup to isolate & cure illnesses within it. If the Borg couldn't assimilate the Founders, they'd simply kill the Founders (not an unusual Borg tactic - their goal is territory, technology, and resources, not any one particular species).
One thing about drones that always drove me nuts was the injectors. Nanomachines? Release them in a cloud(think cyborg farts). Yes, maybe not as efficient as direct injection but a lot more difficult to defend against. And it could be a "death toot" if you will. Injectors for normal operation then on drone death it releases a cloud of nanoprobes to take down hostiles. Just a thought.
The Borg would send more then 10 cubes, they know from the first encounter with the dominion what tactics the Hem hadar should use. The federation ships was far more advanced compared to the attack ships used by the Dominion. Realistically the Borg would have sent at least 100 Cubes to crush the Federation, Klingons and the Romulan Star Empire. Dominion power comes from numbers. Once the Borg adapt to the Dominion weapons game over. The value of the founders themselves would be useless for the the Borg. The vorta and other species in the Dominion would add to the Borg.
Nobody tried ramming the Borg Cube? Directed Asteroids and Rail-Guns would destroy that piece of junk! Anybody tried sending spam or computer viruses? Nobody tried teleporting into the Cube? (A single dude with a shotgun or rifle can kill every Borg Drone inside the Cube) I wish Generation Tech would do a video on Wolf 359
But this scenario has the war being fought in the Dominion. This is hardly representative of who is stronger. The Borg just send in a few cubes to be met by the entire Dominion fleet. The analysis should have had them meet on neutral ground, or perhaps compared what an invasion by the Dominion might have looked like.
Borg Drones are weak against physical attacks (Being smacked by the butt of a rifle kills them and swords work well with their exposed heads) Picard killed two of them with a Tommy Gun A Navy Seal with an AA-12 could kill every single Borg Drone or Queen Explosive weaponry would kill dozens of them! Honestly, Horse Archers would kill them just as easily as they do Zombies!
I have a different idea for a fanfic universe I've been working on for years. A group of rogue Q "children" break away and decide it would be fun to see what would happen if the Borg and Dominion are brough together, enhanced, then set upon the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Much boom ensues.
I have to disagree with the comment section here. The Borg are more intimidating than they are lethal. I doubt the Dominion would just suicide rush them. They've been known to set traps and make plots with the best of them. And what the Dominion lacks in scientific curiosity, they make up for in psychological curiosity. Almost every time we see them capture Federation personnel, they create elaborate tests to find the prisoner's resolve. Obviously there isn't much there with Borg psychology, so the Dominion would get a deep understanding of their motives very quickly. When you know your enemy and know yourself, you have what you need to win. The Dominion would dangle the possibility of assimilating the Founders in front of the Borg's face, and then lure them into a trap.
ever notice that the Hirogen look like Jem'hadar? Personally it makes me wonder if the Founders took some Hirogen and modified their DNA to make the Jem'hadar...
The weapons at Chin'toka were developed during the war by the Gul Damar (assuming you referring to the orbital weapons platforms) and were purely alpha quadrant designs in origin as the primary weapon was Plasma torpedoes (granted the raw materials needed to build them may have been supplied by the Dominion) and given the timeline you stated in this video those weapons wouldn't have existed.
Well done. Only factor I think that's makes a difference is this: the borg outside of this "war" would continue to grow and have much more resources to keep fighting and eventually win out right. Thanks
After the 1st assault, The Borg would never come in at the edge of Dominion space, they'd come in near it, as in Voyager's Endgame, about a light year from Earth. They don't commit the same error twice. The Borg would have assimilated The Dominions technology in full after a first engagement, it's what they do. The Dominion have always depended on brute strength. They are too full of themselves, it was their downfall. Millenia in a false belief in their superiority have dulled their judement, especially before wrangling with The Feds. Section 31 bore this out. If The Feds can beat them, The Borg @ full strength would decimate them, easily. If this happened b4 Wolf 359, The Borg are @ full strength. Voyager hasn't even been built yet much less found or attacked their central Unicomplex yet. Result, The Borg would leave @ most a ship or 2 to fend of The Dominion as the rest continued on and if they couldn't assimilate The Founders, utterly destroyed their Homeworld. Game over.
I'm certain the Borg would refuse to destroy the Founders unless they viewed them as repulsive rivals. More likely is that the Borg would consider the Founders the most important target for assimilation.
I'd say the Borg relies on brute strength more than the Dominion. You forget about the Vorta, designed to be slimy diplomats and overseers. It's revealed the true strength of the Dominion is the Founders themselves who infiltrate and poison from within. That's why it's poetic Sector 31 flipped the script and poisoned them in the end. Unfortunately that means the Borg can't use the same method since Starfleet cured the shape shifters in return for peace.
I'm actually guessing that the Founders HAVE sparred with the Borg. I mean, they're near neighbors after all, the Dominion is WAY closer to the Borg than the Federation is and we know at least one transwarp conduit goes there (the one the Voyager stumbled through). In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but to me, all the precautions taken by the Founders, the drug addiction, the suppression of other "solids," and the diposable nature of their soldiers, suggests deliberate well-panned anti-Borg measures to me, and that the Dominion has been HEAVILY SHAPED by the measures they've taken to restrict the Borg and keep them out of Dominion territory. Also, I very much doubt that the borg can assimilate the Founders. if they could, with a common border with the Borg for up to 10,000 years, there's NWIH the Dominion would still exxist. It's guaranteed that the Dominion has been tested by the Borg, and it's self-evident that the Dominion survived that test.
(DS9 Spoilers Warning) Well we know the dominion was able to put together a massive reinforcement fleet to bolster the alpha quadrant dominion forces. The fleet consisted of 2,800 Jem'Hadar ships. (DS9: "Sacrifice of Angels") This deployment did not seem to effect the dominion home territory in any real way. So it can be considered that this was their remaining fleet or at least the part not used to police their space. A caveat being that the Dominion was not in a position to send another fleet after the loss of the large 2,800 strong group. Even if the dominions weapons, shields and other technology was totally adapted to, with that many ships simply ramming the cubes would still result in an easy victory for the dominion. Even if the Borg deployed a 100 cubes, (which they don't) it would still be a fair fight. Against any smaller Borg forces it IMO would be a relatively easy victory for the Dominion. Though it should be noted the dominion had plenty of time to gather this massive fleet in DS9, so it might not be possible to gather in such numbers on shorter notice. - Also in the case of a 'Total War' where both sides used everything they had, then Borg victory would likely be the only outcome. Due to their massive fleet of ships, each worth an enemy battle group. Though we were never given a fleet estimate for the borg.
FUZKEK Given a Borg population estimate of "Trillions" (we'll go with 2 Trillion to get the "s" in trillions) and assuming 3-400 Million to man essential Matrixes and Hubs, then that's enough Drones to man 15,381,538 capital-class Cube vessels.
I have never seen a video where my heart was broken instantaneously upon starting. This one did. My condolences on the loss of your precious pupper. There is nothing like the selfless love of a loyal dog. I cried a hell of a lot when my Dee Dee died in puppy birth. I'll raise a glass to you and your loyal friend. Also, I believe that the only REAL defense the Dominion had would be the eagerness to commit suicide of the Vorta or Gem' Hadar to thwart giving up vital intel. This tactic would only force the Borg to develop other ways of gathering the information they'd need to continue their assimilation of the Dominion. It would be a set back; nothing more. Remember what you said about tactics and realize that the Borg would react differently toward the Dominion BECAUSE of their reaction to their initial attack (as it would certainly differ from the Federation) (because the Federation are pussies). Increased aggressiveness would be the natural calculation of a cybernetically generated response. I.E., More cubes, tactical cubes, and spheres. 10 cubes? try a thousand AS A RESULT of their setbacks in the initial assault.
I must have listened to this over 20 times. And I still enjoy it. Just hearing that both the Borg and the Dominion would be so crippled after a long and bloody crusade against each other puts a smile to my face everytime. Guess I'm not a fan of the "Bad guys". Thanks and keep up the great videos!
The wild card in this is the Founders themselves! I can't see them being assimilated myself. That said,as a Borg fan,the Dominion will get their chronometers cleaned!
The Founders, like Species 8472, would not be able to be assimilated. However, the alien races under Founder rule would all be assimilated. Then, the Founders would be destroyed.
@@stevenlitak2464 Vorta would kill themselves and the Jem'Hadar have no info about the Founders, the Founders could move to a new homeworld and crank out new Jem'Hadar and Vorta all over the galaxy. I suspect Jem"Hadar would board cubes and damage the ship and kill drones in melee combat from the inside.
3:45 into the vid- "The standard Borg Cube can take up to 70 per 6 damage..." 🤣😂 I'm dying here! And before any of you trolls start berating and admonishing me for pointing this out, you should know that I LOVE Lore Reloaded's videos. He's awesome, concise, and on point in almost every single video he posts. It just struck me as funny the way he said it is all. Thank you for that, Loremaster Prime! I've had a really bad day and it was hugely cathartic and refreshing to have a good laugh while also expanding my views on the Trekverse!
+Lore Reloaded Sorry Lore, gonna disagree massively on this one! ;-D Your using ships in canon from 2367 for the Borg but ships from canon in 2372/73 for the Dominion, what gives? That seems abit skewed, so as to utilise only the Borg ships seen in the TNG, long before we see the diversity and adaptability of Borg technology in the voyager epsiodes which, incidentally, are also in the 2372/73 period. Would it not have been more balanced and more constructive to utilise the same time scale for this criteria? As to other points your make, The Jem'Hadar would make excellent warrior drones and the Ketracel white, could be synthesised by the Borg, either in their bodies (like most nutrition the biological parts of a drone require, are synthesised) or in an alcove during regeneration. I feel this invalidates your point here. *Only as many Cubes as needed* We see that this is not the case in the Voyager episode Dark Frontier part 2, in which seven returns to the collective under duress. Seven and the Queen are at the vanguard of a fleet of cubes and a diamond, assimilating a local species. The number of cubes and the diamond present, seems far more than would be required for this one world and it's paltry fleet, that is dispatched with ease. I would posit, that the Borg send out only one or two cubes, when travelling at great distance and the assimilation of a target is not high priority or in close proximity, meaning less disruption to the collectives other goals, by sending a larger force. Thus, if the priority was deemed high enough (relevant technology, biological distinctiveness) or the presence of a nearby transwarp conduit made proximity and therefore disruption to the borg collective minimal in sending a larger force, the Borg could and would do so. In my opinion Now I'm not saying that the Borg would send a hundred cubes, but it is conceiveable that they might send, say, two tactical cubes, one to three regular cubes, several spheres and maybe a diamond or two. I believe, that with the cubes alone, the Borg would stand a good chance of gainiing a sizeable foot hold in dominion space, IF they were not going for the Founders homeworld specifically. But prioritising high population worlds, perhaps the Vorta homeworld (which might ellicit a more sluggish response from the Dominion/Founders) Not to mention the potential carnage if the Borg assimilate a cloning facility!! The Borgs ability to adapt, is, I think, downplayed massively in the tv shows and even in other materials as they are the villains and thus, they HAVE to lose lol But I suspect they could discern how to prevent the Dominions most pressing technological edges, from the personal cloaking devices of the Jem'Hadar, the White, the shield bypass transporter tech etc. The Dominion would have an advantage in numbers to begin with but if we were to talk all out war, I sincerly believe the Dominion would be wrecked lol
While I agree with some of your post I would point out that by 2372 the Borg ships had adapted to deal with various other technologies and civilizations, conversely it's likely that the fleet makeup of the Dominion forces were essentially unchanged between 2367 and 2372. Remember, he did say that in this scenario the Borg attacks on the alpha quadrant hadn't happened so their ships wouldn't have been so adapted. In light of this I think the comparison is fair.
Your welcome to your opinion, I still feel, that, regardless of the contact with the federation, the borg are in possession of far superior ships, than the one sent to earth in 2267, tactical cubes and the like. The arbitrary decision to choose ship profiles from two seperate series and time brackets, places undue emphasis on the military capacity of the Dominion, over the Borg. Thats just poor practice.
The Dominion might have an advantage in numbers compared to a small expeditionary fleet, but definitely not overall. The unicomplex itself is canonically known to house trillions of drones and hundreds of ships.
My old STO liberated Borg captain did have a background involving the dominion. The Borg did attack the dominion roughly around 2402, but in a change of behavior, the Borg mainly struck areas that had technology they wanted, grabbed it, and left. Trans warp allowed them to do hit and run tactics. Technology grabbed: Genetic engineering and species creating, cloning tech, virtual life simulations (the one Chief O'brien), ship construction, and general technology that happened to be near by. Also, the Borg did some preparation and had weapons and methods already worked out to deal with Jem'hedar tactics. One of the plans was no long term engagements. All this was done so the Borg could grow create vast numbers of replacement designed drones to boost their numbers. The Dominion actually asks the Federation for help, and a task force is sent. They arrive in time for the last Borg raid, though to only discovered a wiped out Dominion fleet and several disabled Borg vessels. A third party intervened here, but the Dominion would not come forth on what the Borg were after at this location and what that third party could be. The link to the collective had been severed, and several now liberated Borg are rescued by the Federation ships (where the Liberated Borg come from in my mind for STO).
One thing you neglected. The Borg adapt. They will let you hit them with your weapons, so that they can analyze them and adapt to them. Once adapted, your weapons will have 0 effect. NONE. With that in mind, a single Borg cube will wreck havoc on the Dominion.
I don't agree that the borg wouldn't use the Jemadar if they had to, sure they aren't perfect but if the borg are having trouble with the race it shows clearly they are worthy of becoming tactical drones, and i have no doubt the borg could remove the requirement for white entirely. And lets face it, if the borg ever took a cloning facility the dominion would be screwed very quickly.
I don't know that Borg technology is equipped to stop a genetic requirement for a drug.. But even if they were, wouldn't it be easier just to assimilate surrounding planets and use those for resources?
Borg don't reproduce. The probability that they haven't assimilated functional cloning tech is near zero, yet they do not use it, just as they do not use natural reproduction. It seems unlikely that they would fix the addiction. They are not known to fix genetic flaws. The likely means of eliminating the weakness is an implant that synthesizes the drug.
the nano probes would replace the white. and we know that the Jem Hadar can live without white if they havfe the nessecary mutation. In all the species they assimluated they have a wide field of genetic knowledge. I could seethem sendign 2 cubes next wave but depedns on htreat level they give the Dominion. also the Gamam quadrant is closer to Delta then the Alpha beta quadrants so easier to get to. also Chintokta was a cardassian inovvation not Dominion.
Christian... Borg needs plot armour to beat "Main character armour". You realise that the Federation wins in the end due to being the "good guys", right?
I think 🤔 the first goal of the Borg is to assimilate the location of a species (or empires ‘),homeworld,therefore that rogue planet homeworld of founders must have a set rotating course for over at least 10000 years or more,therefore the Borg would have initially studied the rogue planet’s course and probable current location.the founders ‘ homeworld would possibly have stored the planet’s defenses’ ,(which would be more extreme than even the defenses of earth 🌏,romulan-reman system,tholian assembly, etc,but not as impenetrable as species 8427-undine),therefore,the Borg would penetrate the shields of another dominion vessel,then study 📖 the dominion homeworld defenses and also insidiously secret plant a covert tracking device on a dominion war vessel ,for tracking locations and relay information about defenses around hopefully the dominion homeworld,with other important dominion sectors and facilities,also!borg would attempt to assimilate the changeling species,(after a borg queen 👸 uses trap to acquire a changeling infiltrator -hopefully,(if I may use the term hope for the living death 💀 of the earth 🌏 human base probe voyager accidentally slipped through wormhole then altered by civilization of androids then infected by borg consciousness then Borg assimilation broke out then Borg queen 👸 functionality created from an assimilated species of extreme technology and brain 🧠 functions!)if borg could not assimilate dominion changeling founders species then Borg collective could utilize knowledge of dominion homeworld defenses then utilized insidious covert surprise attack with a weapon and disease then send needed numbers of Borg cubes,queen vehicles, etc from borg field hive area built within remote area of gamma quadrant,to overwhelm dominion homeworld suicide ships with innocent 😇 forced to fight subject dominion conquered species ships!therefore, the Borg has acquired more technology and more tactical knowledge,for just few hundred years,then the dominion false parenthood complex war machine has evolved for over ten thousand years!borg assimilation of species physiology,military, and knowledge but dominion oppression control,with only needed imitation and acquire knowledge of species technology,for oppressive order against solid humanoid species,but all of conquered humanoid species ‘ threatening technology is eliminated by dominion (if possible).borg is more deadly than dominion,therefore,borg would destroy dominion,within a few decades or two centuries!
I'm not sure if the Borg have that capability. There was an episode on Deep Space Nine, however, in which the Klingons caused a massive solar flare, which destroyed a Dominion shipyard facility, so I suppose it's possible. In Star Trek: Generations Dr. Soran had developed a cold-fusion device that could destroy stars. Perhaps the Borg have access to that information.
What is 'the minimum that's needed'? Example: If i send 10 cubes, I might win, but 9 cubes will be destroyed. If I send 20 cubes, I might win, but 5 might be destroyed. If I send 30 cubes, at max 1 will be destroyed. What is the minimum cubes that's needed here? Moreover, if they send the minimum that's needed, the only relevant factors become a) the borg intelligence on the dominion and b) the ability of the dominion to adept and surpass that estimation. But regardless. I don't see the borg losing. Just like you, I simply think that if the borg sends enough ships, they will win. Especially since the founders are all on one planet. Also, about assimilating the jem'hadar: I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to do that. They would simply cure/remove their drug dependency. Which should be ease, especially since they alter the body with cybernetics and nanites already as it is. I however don't see how you can assimilate a founder, because I don't see how that would work with nanites.
It's almost a stalemate. The Borg technologically are more powerful, but the Dominion is biologically superior. It's doubtful the shape shifting Founders could be assimilated, and having biological mastery they could simply design the Jem'Hadar and Vorta to die when infected by the Borg, ala a shut off switch.
I disagree on one point we have seen the Borg send 1000s of cubes, to Kevin Uxbridge world, one they deemed perfect for assimilation. I don't think we have seen the Borg actually fight anyone other than when they sent 1000s of cubes to kevin and to guinans world. So you can't just say "they would not" when they have both before wolf 359
14:02 - hahaha i don't know why anyone should say that mate this was great and these videos are really fun, thanks for making them. I generally agree with what you said of course, there are thousands of possible scenarios.
You got right up to last part. If the head can't see, hear ect. It is cut off at that point. All it would take is 1 cube and they could mop up all of it.
Round of applause for the comment section here! Makes a great read. If a writer just sat down went through these comments and made notes you could very easily craft a great series for Star Trek: Legacy. Barely have to do any work so much material and possibilities and stories here.
"We will adapt and add your uni..." -Borg Cube is hit by 2 Heavy duty Pulse polaron cannons from a Dominion battleship and that's game, set and match kids.
It would be my understanding that the Dominion would be absolutely swarmed with cubes as the Borg would see the Dominion as a good addition to the collective.
I havent watched the Voyager Borg eps in a while but it was always one cube in the TNG stuff and from a creative standpoint they basically showed each cube is virtually indestructible and almost Godlike, monolithic in its destructive power. Obviously for the DS9 Dominion War the producers had the tech to do the opposite approach and have fleets of thousands of ships in action. An all out Borg V Dominion war would probably be a bloodbath of millions of deaths. But both territories are so huge and so distant from each other that i cant imagine one conquering the other.
Wow... Just Wow... that was an amazing bit of hypothetical logic and well grounded in Startrek lore. My initial reaction was the Borg would swarm in and crush them based on Guinan's story to Picard. I agree with most of what you said for the initial encounters, but if the Borg lost those initial engagements then the dominion would only become more juicy targets for assimilation. 2 years later they would send in 20 cubes... then 2 years later 40 cubes. Then 2 years later they will send in 400 cubes. While the borgs do have almost unlimited resources, I think your analysis is correct. The Federation did manage to stop a Borg attack on earth and the Borg decided not to do another direct attack.... instead trying to go all terminator and 'flank' the federation with a backward time jump. Maybe the borg only appear to have unlimited resources to the fractured feudal races of the delta quadrant, where they can easily overwhelm small homeworlds with a few cubes... hence Guinan's 'force of nature' story. Janway's ability to not get assimilated suggests that the Borg can show some restraint when it suits them. Her subsequent visit to the 'Borg hub', suggests that the Borg control a vast empire but they are probably not as unlimited in resources as Q wanted Picard to believe... especially against species 90210... (yea yea 8472). Hey Lore, thanks for the great video, I hadn't really considered how the Borg are limited before it.
Simply analyzing the power consumption the Borg produces they would be a class 3 minimum if not class 4 species on the cardeseph scale which means they only need the energy that is required to create the mass that they would need for any resources with transporter technology they would have an unlimited amount of resources considering the amount of power consumption the collective has the simple fact that they have transwarp condwits that connect to all sectors of their just proves that difnitivly a transwarp conduit is a Newton Einstein bridge the level of energy that is needed to stabilize any wormhole is unfathomable to any technology that we see to any species in the Star Trek universe other than godlike species like the Q there's even an episode where q himself chastise his own son telling him to not provoke the borg the time frame that we're talking about when this battle there is no species more powerful than the Borg other than the godlike ones
In the "Star Trek: Destiny" trilogy, the Borg invaded Federation space with over 7,000 Cubes. "Resistance is futile - but welcome". They also went to Romulan and Klingon territory. It was fantastic, and the best series I've read since "the Genesis Wave".
This discussion reminds me of a DS9 fan fic I have been thinking of writing. A Zakdorn advisor, or possibly a high ranking member of Starfleet (at least Lt Commander), is discussing strategy for the ongoing Dominion War with Captain Sisko, a Starfleet Admiral, Chanselor Martoch, and a Romulan Admiral. The Zakdorn suggests rebuilding a Starfleet shuttle craft into a flying computer with a Galaxy Class warp engine and captured Borg technology. Aside from the navigational information needed to run the autopilot, the computer will be filled with all tactical and biological data the Federation has on The Dominion. The location of known Dominion planets in the Gamma Quadrant. The complete biological breakdown of the Founders, the Vorta, and the Jem'Hadar. All technical data on Dominion war ships and cloning technology. Everything. Then they would point it towards the Delta Quadrant, engage a Borg distress beacon on all subspace frequencies, then have the autopilot fly towards Borg space at Warp 9.9 once all living beings had beamed off of the ship. The hope being that a Borg ship will detect the beacon, assimilate the shuttle, discover this new information on The Dominion, and go to investigate/assimilate. This would spark a war between The Borg and The Dominion, which The Federation, the Klingon Empire, and The Romulans would be all too happy to help them fight . . . in exchange for the removal of all Dominion troops from the Alpha Quadrant, and the signing of a peace treaty between all four empires. As the saying goes, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".
Hmmm, there was an episode of voyager where an alien said “ by the time they surrounded our system, 100s of cubes, we had already surrendered to our own terror “ that’s definitely evidence they’re willing to send 100s of cubes if the target is worth it.
2 things;
1. The weapons platforms were cardassian, as Damar introduced Weyoun to them.
2. The Borg wouldn’t have to recover from anything, they still had thousands of cubes and millions of drones. 10 cubes is a drop in the bucket.
Janeway could destroy a thousand cubes without any effort.
@@RobertZdarsChin She could not.
Most of the time, we saw Voyager RUNNING away from the Borg or barely getting away.
The Tactical Cube they engaged was with 7's help for one thing and for the sole purpose of acting as a distraction to get the away team on board.
It wasn't until the final two parter the ship got the deployable armor and transpasic torpedo technologies allowing them to deal with the cubes far more effectively... but even 1000 cubes would require 1000 torpedoes... and what's to say the Collective wouldn't have adapted by the time Voyager destroyed say 100 or even 500 cubes?
@@deksroning125 Not true at all. They even invented a Tactical borg cube because the cubes had long since ceased to be a threat due to the large number of Borg we see easily defeated by Janeway.
PS the Tactical Borg Cube is easily defeated as well
@@RobertZdarsChin
the Tactical cube Voyager engaged was barely phased.
The ship assaulted the cube just so they could introduce sufficient shield fluctuation so the away team could align their transporters from the Delta Flyer and beam into the cube.
Also, Voyager and the resistance Borg sphere both engaged the Tactical Cube as a way to try to rescue the away team, but if you also paid any attention, you would know that the Queen ordered the self-destruct of the cube in question which collapsed its shields and allowed Voyager to beam the away team back.
Seriously, didn't you even WATCH the episodes in question, or do you just like saying 'Voyager wattered down the Borg' just because its a commonly acceptable myth?
The Borg sphere Voyager engaged in one episode and managed to get away from was because they beamed and armed photon torpedo onto the Brunali vessel and detonated it when it passed the Sphere's shield.
We already know torpedoes can do massive damage if they explode inside Borg ships... so the fact it only caused 'moderate' damage to the Sphere, and the fact Voyager then ran immediately to avoid pursuit, shoots down the theory Voyager was dropping the Borg like flies.
It was TNG movie 'First Contact' that introduced the concept of the Queen and made the collective prone to mistakes.
@@deksroning125 How many cubes do you think Voyager destroyed? Is it more than 20?
1 problem I need to point out... Guinan said this about the Borg, “When they come, they’re going to come in force. They don’t do anything piecemeal!” This kind of means the Borg would send an overwhelming armada to deal with the Dominion.
Which turns out to be BULLSHIT as the Borg never do anything but send a singe cube, they’d rather fucking time travel than send two ships
the borg have always been preoccupied with species 8473
Incorrect. It means they would send the requisite amount to accomplish the task. No more, no less.
@@krane15 historically they sent 1 cube through time. Not exactly full force.
If we want to go by lore, those cubes can literally one shot the Enterprise, but it never happened to picard or janeway.
We saw it happen it wasn't a line drop, in later episodes the borg cubes fire weaker lasers the Enterprise could tank.
The borg cube has no navability. They dont turn, or flip around in a space battle, they take every hit head on, dampening them with shields.
The dominion would win.
@@c97x That might be believable except for two things:
First, the Borg are the collective minds of thousands of races. Even with the Vorta that serve as the generals, the Dominion is just a single race.
Second, even thought the Jem'Hadar are willing to commit suicide in order to win; and can cause a considerable amount of damage to a Borg cube, the Borg would eventually adapt to their disruptor weapons and fighting tactics rendering them no longer a threat.
Also, remember that a Cube is massive, self-repairing, and can sustain a considerable amount of damage and still operate. Although the Borg would sustain a considerable loss initially, they would eventually return and easily win.
"Both sides lose"
The Borg lose 10 cubes (Out of a million) but the dominion crumbles? Sounds like a Borg victory to me.
Bingo. The Borg lost hundreds of cubes, spheres, and quite a few planets in the war against 8472, and they still weren't even close to being annihilated.
@@derek96720 The war against species 8472 is not a good example. The Borg lost that war.
@@krane15 No they didn't. They were losing for a while, until the the help from voyager allowed them to halt 8472's advance. And in spite of all the losses they took early on, their presence in the Delta quadrant was barely diminished at all.
@@derek96720 That still isn't a good example since if it wasn't for Janeway being stupid they would've gotten their shit kicked in.
@@SirDankleberry How is that in any way relevant? The entire purpose of the example is to show that losing a few cubes is a small cost. The example shows that.
If the nanites can free a human drone from needing to breathe in a vacuum they could probably get a Jem'Hadar drone off of drugs
Eventually if not immediately.
Methadrone perhaps?
Considering willpower of a borg would over power one mind adiction :P billions saying no to one saying yes hehe :P
Yes I thought of that as well, I think it would come down to how difficult it is and how good drones they make. They would definitely assimilate a few just for good measure but after that they may just not consider them being worth the effort and simply kill them.
@@meyaenyo2593 - Ketracel White isn't a mental addiction, it's a physical one built into Jem'Hadar at the genetic level (If I remember the DS9 Episode correctly). Without it, their bodies cease to function.
However, Borg Nanites might be able to synthesize the compounds necessary. Kind of a "War of the MacGuffins" the way I see it.
The Borg is a collective, so I always thought sending a single cube was an amazing tactic, a cube is big and scary and everything you do to that single cube will be adapted to by all Borg. This would happen unbeknownst to the Dominion.
They will calculate what is needed and the job would be done.
I think the reason why the Borg only send one cube is because they do not want to assimilate a race that may help them evolve. "If you beat one of our cubes, we learn and adapt - when we think you learned, we will send one Cube again to evolve. We will always evolve, you won't, sooner or later you won't be able to defend yourself against one cube and than we will assimilate you to come closer to perfection."
That's my head cannon.
And then they bloody time travel…genius, your theory is way better
The Borg don't learn, they assimilate. That means they plug into your brain and know what you know.
There was that episode from Voyager where they learned about slipstream drive. The dude was trying to deliver Voyager crew to the Borg. He said that his people had eluded the Borg. After the war with the fluidic space aliens, the Borg surround his people with hundreds of ships.
The borg would find a way to "cure" the addiction. Bashir almost did it in the jungle.
Doubtful
Bashir didn't almost do it. That was the great tragedy in the end. There is no way to cure. The Jem'Hadar who beat his addiction was a genetic abberration who was simply created already able to beat his addiction.
Dominion Bio-science is leagues ahead of the Borg.
WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!
@@Theorphan81 Bashir's efforts were sabotaged by O'Brien, he was close to curing the Jem Hadar, it's just that he couldn't do it fast enough in those specific circumstances.
The Borg possesses the technical knowledge of thousands of species. I'd say they have a fair shot of finding some sort of solution to the Ketracel issue.
You forgot a wrinkle:
The Founders would move their homeworld after the 1st attack.
@@darkcoeficient *Species 8472 has entered the lobby*
You will be assimilated. Your culture will adapt to service our own.
If Section 31 can find a way to undermine the founders at the genetic level, so too can the Borg.
@@TheDetailsMatter The Borg don't research or do genocide, they assimilate and use existing knowledge. You can't assimilate the Vorta as they'll kill themselves, and the Jem'Hadar know little about the Founders. The Founders would simply hide as they always do, and produce endless waves of Jem'Hadar to board Borg cubes and destroy the vessels from inside. Borg cubes are stronger than Dominion ships, but Jem'Hadar are perfectly happy to board and raid cubes whereas Federation officers could and would never do that.
@@theredscourge All quite true right up to the last statement. The Federation has never shown reluctance to board and explore a cube. They seem to have this arrogant belief they'll be ignored as long as they aren't perceived as a direct threat. This has been how much of what is known about the Borg was learned, as well as how Locutis (Picard) was rescued, and how Annika Hansen became 7 of 9.
So if Section 31 sent an operative to do something aboard a cube, and he was caught and assimilated, the collective would then possess all of Section 31's compartmentalized knowledge of dirty deeds done on behalf of the Federation, including the DNA exploit they found in Odo's fluid matrix, and the cure discovered by Dr. Bashir. Manipulation of that knowledge would enable them to either assimilate or annihilate the Founders at their leisure.
The only reason the Borg didn’t send dozens of Cubes to assimilate the Federation is this.. Paramounts budget per episode and the writers knew it would be the end of the franchise. Period.
That's the same reason they don't have everyone have anneurism ;P We still work with in the canon we have ;)
But let get real the Borg would (now cheap CGI is around) would just wipe the dominion out in a matter of days due to superior fire power and the fact that after a few rounds they adapt and superior everything would arse rape any other species. And as for 8472 I call bullshit voyage retrocon lets nurff the Borg, Data states they thousand of years ahead of us
Donald Bensen
The Borg do invade in numbers but they don't do it very often because this binds a lot of resources. I forgot name of the species those guys with a big head in Voyager but basically what he was saying that they rebelled a lot of attacks from the Borgs until one day they came in numbers and crushed them. In the last episode of Voyager the Federation got extremely pumped up as a thread to the Borg and I personally thought its time for a really big war and a race for new technology basically a cliffhanger and after this no new show :(
The story was told in the novels that came after Voyager. There it was said, that the destruction of the Borg-Center by Admiral Jainway crippled the Borg. However, the Borg startet an invasion of the Federation a few years after Voyager returned to earth. The Novels are called "Destiny". It's a trilogy
The second a borg manages to get their hands on a changling and can sample that perfection. They will never stop until they have it.
They stopped with Species 8472. I doubt the Borg can assimilate changelings, considering they could shapeshift into Species 8472.
@@kryptiqk2141 thats cause species 8472 was kicking ass and taking names.. with the dominion trading at high losses.. the borg would not stop
@@FEDEXLuchs But The Founders can just change into Species 8472, and at least not be able to be assimilated. They could also infiltrate and destroy Borg cubes from the inside.
infiltrate? nope, u cant make urself look like a borg then go around wrecking things, the borg is a collective remember, that changeling would be caught and tested upon until assimilated. Species 8472 managed to keep from assimilation since they were never captured, if they were the borg would find a way
The borg don’t want to be organiczzz
A single Borg Cube destroyed 39 Starships at Wolf 359 taking practically no damage. The Dominion wouldn't stand a chance.
thats because the federation is passive lil bitchs man are you serious look at the ships they used to fight at wolf 359 all outdated
@@triptrip8353 Bingo what I'm curious about are we including the Breen with the Dominion and if so do the Breens weapons bypass the Borgs shields?
The federation at Wolf 359 didn't do kamikaze runs. A warp core breach at point blank range does more damage than a few phasers and torpedoes. Also, the Dominion ships could bypass Federation shields completely. If that works on Borg cubes too, it would only take a few kamikaze fighters to take out a cube.
@@Bonez0r The Borg would be familiar with the type of energy the Dominion employs in its weapons, the first hit and they'd adjust their defenses to known phased polaron weapons which, if not a perfect adaptation to Dominion weapons would certainly reduce their effectiveness.
Seriously I don't think LR thought this hypothetical through. The way the Borg assess threats would make them pile on the Dominion *hard* and is precisely why Starfleet got such a long reprieve; the Borg underestimated them, they underestimated their resolve and ability to adapt and by the time the Borg take them seriously, it's too late, they're doomed.
@@triptrip8353 So true. Also, their ships weren't designed for war.
Sorry about your dog. 😟
yup, losing your loyal friend can be worse then losing family.
Thanks..still having troubles sleeping.. it's a process..
At least you had a wonderful friend for a while...and so did he
Lore Reloaded My your beloved canine REST IN PEACE! My 11 year old cat passed away earlier this year. I swore that I'd never have another pet. I now have 2 new kittens! Peace and long life!🖖
Ive got 2 staffies and I love them both, sorry to here about your loss..
STAR TREK : TNG
episode
I BORG
DR CRUSHER
" I KNOW THE BIO CHIPS
CAN SYNTHESIZE
ANY BIOLOGICAL NEED
REQUIRED "
@Jeremiah Boyd But being canon and in-universe, she's a higher level of arbitration than a fan saying "This is how I imagine it works."
@Jeremiah Boyd Because you are taking her too literally. It's more than slightly unreasonable to suggest that she genuinely meant that there was no *theoretical* substance it can't produce. Merely that for all practical purposes, that isn't a likely situation. You could say, for example "A replicator can create any food a person might need." While sure, yes, it is technically true that they could encounter an alien that eats an abstract concept like fear or something,, which the replicator can't produce, that is clearly not what the speaker would be referring to.
@Jeremiah Boyd Have you watched Star Trek before? It is entirely possible that the nanites could do that, just as replicators can reasonably be said to produce "any" food, and the holodeck could be used to reproduce "any" environment. Sure, it is ridiculous to make a claim like this in the real world, but in Star Trek, they have universal translators. That's a device that in real time translates languages it has never encountered before. That is FAR more silly than the nanites which are in function merely very small replicators, a technology that already exists in universe.
@@JD-xz1mx If the Jem'Hadar are composed of nucleic acids and proteins, then it would be easy to genetically engineer them. There is research dating back to 2018, showing that adenoviruses can be used to genetically engineer humans.
We're told that a Borg cube can maintain combat effectiveness even when 78% of it has been destroyed. Given that smaller Jem'Hadar ships are about the size of the Defiant, it's hard to imagine that even if twelve of them rammed the cube at the same time it would be more damaged than that. I know that a warp core breach is pretty devastating, but given the incredible hardiness of a Borg ship it's hard to imagine they would do anything more than blast chunks out of the cube's surface that would be regenerated in time.
yea that's true bud, about the regenerative abilities of the Borg, but the Enterprise was brought up close and personal, a couple of years before Wolf 359, given the fact the Borg are all interconnected, and the Enterprise was able to inflict some serious damage on that cube, you'd have thought the Borg collective would have a retained memory of that event!
@@MAZE4 They did. The Enterprise's phasers put massive holes in the cube during the initial encounter. Far bigger holes than they would create in Alpha Quadrant designs. Borg shields are initially _useless._ By the time of Wolf 359, however, thanks to the initial fight against the Enterprise, Borg shields resisted Federation weapons to the same level as the Federation's rival powers, resulting in similar levels of damage to the cube. But because there was so much cube, and vital systems were buried deep within it, they simply couldn't cause enough damage.
Plus, all the debris and corpses floating around would be useful components for not only repairs, but for building another cube.
I think that the Borg would show a lot of interest in the Founders once it was realized they could shapeshift. They could interpret this ability as an advancement over a mono-form existence. Their biggest problem would be the ability to assimilate a Founder. Both the Obsidian Order and Section 31 had access to avenues of scientific study. The Borg learn by assimilation and, as shown by Species 8472, if the Borg could not assimilate they could not learn. Thus, if their initial first few attempts at assimilation failed, I doubt they would ever be able to accomplish that feat. It does beg one question, however. If a Founder was assimilated, would the Jem H’addar destroy it or would they still see it as a Founder? If the second happened, then the Borg Founder would be able to order a surrender of the Jem H’addar.
mhsbear2k That's certainly a good point. That Changeling could possibly be to the Dominion what Picard was to the Federation as Locutus, only more effective at facilitating the Borg entry
Excellent point
A founder / changeling borg... What a sight to see, though. #MissedOpportunityForStarTrekWriters
The answer would come down to "what the writers want". It stands to reason that The Founders would be succeptable to Assimilation since Borg Nanites operate on a sub-molecular level and since Changelings were once solid, non-morphogenic life forms . Species 8472 was impossible for the Borg to assimilate because of their extra-dimensional origin and "alien-ness" which is something the Changelings don't have; they still follow the "Galactic Standard" (as laid out in The Next Generation episode "The Chase - as an aside, the Female Precursor in the message in "The Chase" is played by the same actress and bears an uncanny resembelence to a Changeling...could mean something, could mean nothing) so there is no particular reason to assume Assimilation would be ineffective.
Let us all be thankful that the Borg don't innovate new things...or they may well take note of the founders and how their link works, how their bodies work, and do away with drones, and instead opt to create bodies made entirely of nanoprobes. "Oh no! They phasered me! I'll have to create another thousand nanoprobes from something to replace that!" and then proceed to turn into a wave of billions to trillions of nanoprobes rushing forward on all targets for assimilation, penetrate them through every pore of their skin, every conceivable entry point, and have the assimilations completely done before those nanoprobes reintegrated into a drone form.
There actually were Jem'hadar that were turned into borg that are shown many times in the following series; the borg would have used them as replacement drones and as for any biological needs they would just replace it with cybernetics....that is what they do. The year of wolf 359 was actually several years prior to the events of DS9 and Bajor was still not free at that time. The Borg could have sent a single Tactical Cube into the region and from there the unwitting Dominon would be crushed.
The Jem'hadar are not technologically nor biologically distinctive. They are disposable commodities with a single purpose.
Well keep in mind the Dominion was on it's own able to take on the entire Alpha Quadrant, and only a single Alpha Quadrant power managed to destroy the Borg Everytime they showed up.
And your conclusion that the Borg wouldn't adapt as well to dominion weapons is based on what ? They have assimilated 1000,s of species who knows what kind of weapons some of them species had
@Patriarch Of The Sith the Borg can adapt to anything and I think if the federation can adapt there shields to cope with Dominion weapons iam sure the Borg can
@Patriarch Of The Sith "The Borg would have fits trying to adapt to the side effect."
How on earth do you come to this conclusion? Do you have any basis at all for determining whether or not this is beyond the capability of the Borg?
If this is the case, why didn't the Federation start creating Polaron weapons after encountering them in the Dominion for the purpose of fighting the Borg?
Why do people feel the need to simply make up "facts" to support a "who would win" argument between fictional characters?
@Patriarch Of The Sith yes I know they don't use shields they do have an electromagnetic field they adapt to phaser frequency and modulation which Dominion weapons still have after a few shots they would adapt to them as easy as they do federation
@Patriarch Of The Sith The Federation was eventually able to adapt to Dominion shields and weapons, at least to the point of making them less effective. You don't think the Borg could? It's what they DO.
@Patriarch Of The Sith for the 1st few shots no doubt but they would adapt as stated previously Dominion weapons when fired still have a frequency and modulation soon as the Borg adapt to that frequency and modulation they become useless the only way I can think about the Jem,hadar standing a chance would be to beem onboard a Borg ship with a large explosive device near the Borg's main power core seeing as Dominion transporters can beem through anything but even that might only work a couple of times before the Borg block there transporter signals then it's game over
The Borg.
Plain and simple.
Definitely not. In a space war? Sure. The borg could maybe win that. But a single changeling letting themselves get assimilated in the form of a solid would literally obliterated the Borg so fast they wouldn't know what happened. People forget how crazy OP changelings are, given Odo was pretty amateur at being one. They can travel at warp and replicate machines to a cellular level for crying out loud. You wouldn't even need paranoia with the Borg; even a single drone can screw over an entire cube. And they'd think bigger than that; the Changelings would be giving the collective directives inside of a year.
@@BlazingOwnager borg would detect changlings as fake borg since they wouldn't be hooked into the collective. Yes borg can't assimilate them so they would destroy the threat
@@darkmatter1152 Yes and no. I see no reason that a Changeling couldn't let you assimilate it's body then, whenever it wanted, just spit out the implants. Same way they suck in blood to spill out on command.
People really, really underestimate how wildly overpowered changelings are. They appear as whatever they turn into on sensors and they can literally turn into the air (or at least fog).
Hell they could literally exist as an implant ON a borg, rather than even being an entire creature. The borg have never dealt with anything like them and I don't think they'd stand a chance.
ED: I'm not even sure the Borg would beat the Dominion in space-combat. I mean big dramatic moment in First Contact: Worf talking about ramming the cube. Dominion: 2nd battle would be like 1,000 Jem'Hadar fighters all on suicide rams loaded with quantum torpedoes as an opening move.
@@BlazingOwnager in a space battle Borg win easy more firepower, adapt to Polaron and torps, also wat more ships and 3 miles cubed each cube, dominion fighters would be stopped before they hit cubes
@@darkmatter1152 How? How exactly are the Borg going to stop 1,000 fighters from ramming them? Physical attacks seem to consistently hurt the borg and they just don't have that kind of firepower. They can obliterate small fleets of big ships but huge fleets of small ones is something they're poorly equipped to fight.
i'd pay cash money to see this battle, good job
it would never happen: the borg are the ultimate consumer. they are not interested in territorial expansion.
Sorry, I disagree. The Borg are masters of adaptation while dominion only know force. The dominion doesnt think outside of standard paradigms as do the federation. Once they find the weaknesses of each ship, the dominion is lost.
Also, recall the Borg ship regenerated even when chasing the Enterprise at warp 9. That takes tons of energy, but more important as the dominion has to reclone and reship, the damaged cube would be functional faster and 100% before the dominion could re-arm.
Counterpoint: One changeling gets on a borg ship. The whole collective is run by the founders in about a month..
The Dominion doesn't "only know force." It knows very much exploiting the weaknesses in your society. The Borg have absolutely no sense to question things; a captured drone telling them to sleep blows up their whole ship. It wouldn't be a slaughter, it'd be a war won without anyone even knowing it ended.
The dominion become what they fight to learn and manipulate. They clearly have a science mind at the very least in biology since they created / modified two species as their administration and army. Their war machinery matches the force of a whole quadrant.
Who wins depends if the soup can be assimilated and with a batch of nanites the dominion falls.
Or a founder changes into a borg, learns of the borg queen, and changes into her, and the borg fall.
@@BlazingOwnager counter argument:
Unfortunately for the founders, their greatest strength of infiltration and manipulation of society is useless against the Borg.
Disguise as drone and do what? Take a selfie with the queen? It's not only that one looks like a Borg, one must act like one. And oh yea, be one with the collective.
Manipulating society fails as well. Disguise as a drone to infiltrate the Borg and gain some secrets?
Have fun talking a drone who does not talk back.
Do some terrorist attacks?
Also fail. Using fear as a weapon to use against a society with no emotions? And whatever damage done to the ship is easily repaired.
The Dominion strategy only works in the alpha quadrant because they relied on their greatest weapon they have, fear. But the Borg is different. It's a whole new ballgame. And because the Borg also has their own secret weapon, unity.
Both the Dominion and the Borg use force to control, the difference is that the Borg's way of doing it is just a little bit better than the founder's.
Divided they fall, united they stand as one.
@@shawn092182 Your counter-points sort of fail here, because even a bunch of po-dunk Star Fleet people can infiltrate the Borg.
If you are able to interface as a drone, as we've seen repeatedly in the series, you can spread ideas into the collective. I cannot think of a more direct way to manipulate a society, in particular if done gradually. Just plug in, and start introducing ideas like "The Founders are gods." Frankly they'd have the borg in their pocket almost immediately.
You don't need fear to manipulate people and the Dominion doesn't rely on it. They adapt to whatever they are dealing with. i.e. when they replaced Martok, they weren't trying to cause fear in the Klingons, they were trying to feed into their bloodlust instead. With the borg it might be as simple as directing them elsewhere to assimilate..
ED: The easiest character to replace is the Borg Queen. That character kinda wrecked the Borg by giving them a huge, huge vulnerability they didn't have before. But they all follow her will unquestioningly.
@@BlazingOwnager If the borg actually fell for that and thought the founders were 'gods', wouldn't that just result in the founders taking over and the borg assimilating the entire dominion? The founds would actually be fine with that, if they are in charge of the borg and everyone is a borg they would have absolute control, which is what they want. The borg doesn't actually care who is in charge either, they just want to assimilate everything. It seems like a natural alliance.
Man, that might be the worst nightmare for everyone else. The war resulting in the founders and borg joining forces.
I can only see a Borg victory. That have superior technology and a numbers advantage. The Dominion’s only hope would be it make the war too costly for the Borg to want to finish it.
David Arrowsmith kamikaze runs by the dominion
The Borg gave up with Earth after losing just one cube.
Nope, they tried a second time in First Contact. When that didn't work, they went back in time, but it failed too. Also, in Voyager they planned to assimilate Earth by detonating a biogenic charge into its atmosphere, slowly assimilating Earth before anyone gets wise. Don't know what happened to that plan.
Borg are dumber than the Galactic Empire which itself is dumber than North Korea which itself is dumber than American Republicans
David Arrowsmith but see that is just it. The Borg never outside of the Delta Quadrant use more than one ship. This scenario had to take libertys with them using ten. The borg seem to really not care that much about the other quadrants. They send ships out to assimilate new worlds and tech but at the end of the day that is to improve the collective. They don't really seem to care about expanding outside the delta quadrant so far.
I think this would go in favor of the Borg, as they will have seen polaron tech before. Voyager showed us a slew of civilizations that used tech vastly superior to the Dominion in every area, so when that first cube encountered the first Dominion response, they would have an almost complete picture of what adaptations they needed to nullify the Dominion. I also believe the Borg would immediately re-write Jem'Hadar genetics so the ketracel white addiction is gone. Even if they couldn't assimilate already functional Jem'Hadar or Vorta, if they wanted them, they merely need to assimilate the cloning facilities, and frankly assimilating the cloning facilities would be the primary goal once they became known to the Borg, because then they could simply manufacture drones in whatever quantity they needed. No prior attachments, no internal resistance, a collective made of drones that never had lives outside of being drones...it would be the end of free life anywhere.
tremedar bingo! Damn good point
They might be able to repair the damage to the Jem'hadar. I wonder if it would be worth it though? Maybe? Seems like a lot of work with out that much gain.. Just assimilate other populations and use them.
Whether they'd fix the Jem'Hadar or not...meh...who knows, depends on whether they'd view them as superior tactical drone material, the real prize would be the cloning tech itself, for reasons outlined in my first comment.
how can the Borg assimilate protoplasma come on man it's goo that sentient what would the nanites lock onto in order to control its host I honestly believe that the nanites would be there and it still wouldn't do anything unless it melted them or something
Lore Reloaded
I feel that it's highly unlikely the Jem'Hadar get the Kazon treatment. I suspect half indoctrinated, "to the death" engineered shock troops would be highly desirable combat drones. Especially to sent against other Jem'Hadar.
Also, while yes, kamakazi attacks might work at first against cubes, I seriously doubt that the Borg would have not experienced that tactic before.
Regardless, the idea that the Borg could find the idea of assimilation of cloning facilities and begin cloning "fixed" Jem'Hadar drones could very well create an existential choice for the Collective. They might well decide to embrace the idea... granted of course, that the Dominion'em cloning tech was truly the most advanced the Borg would have encountered to date.
I think the reason the Borg only sent one Cube in first contact is because in the best of both worlds the Borg didn’t lose because starfleet overpowered them but because of Picard being plugged into the collective.
You are a true fan. This is your take on things and what you see as reasonable, and honestly you make it rather entertaining. Thanks for the video~
I try :)
I agree LR's videos are well thought out and presented. Trekker's will always find something to grumble about, it's the nature of the beast. I may not always agree with the analysis, but it is well considered.
Even the Borg could not assimilate loyal Attlia.
Signed: A dog owner.
In star trek Voyager 4x26 hope & fear, the borg sent hundreds of cubes to assimilate Arturis' homeworld
Yeah but that was after a few got assimilated and their vast intellectual abilities was found out. That species was probably one of the most valuable they have ever found
@@darude2893 now I don't know about that the more Queen seemed really interested in the human species and they only sent one cube both times, though they were very far away from the Delta quadrant that's true, why did the board seemingly react one way in one situation and differently in a different situation the borg are just so unpredictable like that and I think there's just no way to interpret what their next action will be unless you're directly linked with their hive mind which I'll pass on that.
@@tonebonebgky2 The Queen may have an interest in Humanity but that doesn't mean humans are particularly worthy of assimilation due to their current level of technology. The Borg can take their time at assimilating the Federation, they're in no real rush. On the other hand, Species 116 had very advanced technology that would greatly augment the Borg collective as a whole and that is absolutely worth investing in the sort of force required to ensure immediate assimilation.
Damn it I just quoted that. I’m sure the argument is that in the entire galaxy that’s the only species they ever did that to… such bs
Id argue the Borg often cripple you with a few then send a armada
But why they didnt to the humans (besides plot) is we are "weaker" but much like the Borg we learn on the fly if we apply ourself
And Riker proved Humans can evolve on the fly cuz who we are and our choices arent edged in stone, so assimilating close friends/family serves no tactical advantage over understanding possible strategies
In the end, humans are to much risk for no overwhelming reward to the borg
Its actually benefits them to observe our culture then assimilate it
The Dominion would not hesitate to use such a program Geordi La Forge came up with to infect a single (captured) borg with the so called "non solvable puzzle". But Captain Picards ethics kept him from doing this, although it has to be said that admiral Nechayev was not happy that Picard did not use this tactic to 'get rid of a mortal threat of the Federation', as she pointed out.
If a Borg cube saw a "non solvable puzzle" like that, it might cause problems for the first cube, but the Borg Queen would put an end to that.
1. I think Picard made the wrong call. Yes Hugh was now an individual, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Because Picard made the call not to infect the Borg, thousands more would die at the Battle of Sector 001, not to mention the assimilation of countless other worlds.
However...
2. I agree with Michael Zoran. It would not have worked. For proof, look to the Lore+Borg episodes. When Hugh was reunited with the Collective, his individuality infected the Cube he was on. When the Unimatrix detected this, they severed the connection with that Cube, leaving it to die. Hugh's individuality would have crippled the Borg as easily as the unsolvable puzzle (is individuality and unsolvable puzzle itself?), but the Unimatrix would have cut the Cube off as soon as they detected a mass breakdown.
snowwie88 remember again and think what really happened... you forgot 99% of the rest that happened in this episode
That was only a theory, I think it's fair to say in hindsight that never would have happened. They may have lost a ship but from Voyager we see they have lost Borg before. It's also a bit absurd that no other race came up with this idea in the hundreds of years the Borg have been attracting worlds. Are Humans really the smartest most creative race they've ever assimilated? The moral dilemma in the TNG episode was real for the crew at the time but the reality is the Borg was never in danger of total destruction.
As for this video, while I can agree with most everything, what is ignored is at the end, after "both lose" the Borg can send another cube or two and now easily assimilate all words formerly under Dominion protection/control, whether or not they can assimilate the founders or not, which I don't think they can but I think the Borg would capture some to study using fields preventing them from shape shifting.
according to this comments here definitve are not smartest race. everybody doesnt like voyager everybody talks about voyager but NOBODY(!!!!!) of you watched voyager.
but i agree with you. borg were never(!) in danger of total destruction (perhaps vs 8472).
if other races have luck/plot armor they CAN do it and they DID it! i think his name was icheb. his people used a by far better method than federation. other races are not known to have "re-assimilated" ex-borg to help them.
but this story is about federation. we didnt see in detail how other races defend themself.
nanites would be able correct the drug dependence as others im sure have said..
1. Borg assimilates founder
2. Founder instructs Vorta and Jem Hadar to self sacrifice
3. ?????
4. Profit!
Borg assimilates Founder.
Founder becomes the new Borg Queen, as its shifting abilities allow it to assimilate the assimilation.
That's what I think would happen. The Founders would shrug off the assimilation attempt or they would dominate the assimilation through shifting.
The virus that could kill the Founders couldn't kill Odo, so it actually couldn't kill the Founders. It could kill one subsection. Since they are one and the same, in canon we have seen nothing not even the virus that had a chance of eliminating the Founders because Odo would have lived.
Im kinda confused, didnt odo get a cure and secondly what makes u think the founders can do anything against the collective?
@@yaymanyayman6892 I see no reason why the collective would be able to do anything against shapeshifters. What makes you think the collective can do anything against shapeshifters? If the Borg couldn't assimilate Species 8472, what makes you think they could assimilate a being that could morph into Species 8472 at will?
Everyone says that since the Borg can not assimilate a Founder, they would have difficulty defeating the Dominion. True, assimilation is a huge part of the Borg defeating an opponent. However, they can still destroy. Plus, people forget that a huge part of the Dominions tactics to defeating a for is to infiltrate them by having the Founders shapeshift to fit in. This simply would not work on the Borg. True, they would likely be able to obtain the form of a Borg drone, but without being "Plugged in" to the collective, the Borg would either ignore them or destroy them. (Probably ignore)
They would be ignored until seen as a threat unless an individual Borg like Locutus or the Queen were present to identify the problem.
Since the Changeling would be on the ship to cause a threat, they would kill it or actually try to assimilate the changeling. What the Borg can not assimilate, they destroy. They would probably most likely destroy the Founders' world.
The Borg's overconfidence always wrecks them. If the Federation can outsmart them and the biologically superior Species 8472 can simply smash them, what happens when the Founders intervene directly? They're basically a mix of both the worst elements to the Borg (craftiness and biological superiority). Direct combat? The Borg. The Founders however would end up poisoning the collective from the inside, it would just require they actually get their hands dirty.
@@bestboutgaming3212 I feel like assimilating the founders would be a high priority as the generic information would be extremely valuable to the borg. Meaning they would approach the situation far different than with the federation and humans, which don't really have any unique traits that stand out to be honest.
Dude... I know it's been a while since you posted this video, but as someone who has recently lost a pet, my heart goes out to you.
As for your scenario, I think that a Borg/Dominion war would be catastrophic for the Milky Way, in favor of the Borg. I do agree with your assessment, until the second engagement. Here's why:
Vorta have been seen to be very individualistic and the odds of the Borg capturing and assimilating a Vorta is extremely high. This would take place during the first engagement, which the Borg would lose. The knowledge maintained by the Borg Collective would now have the knowledge of a Vorta. The Dominion would have no knowledge that a subspace communication link exists between the Cube and the Collective. They blew up the Borg ship, job done.
The Borg would hold off before attacking again processing the information gained from the Vorta. On the second engagement, the Borg would see the shapeshifting nature of the Founders a tremendous boon so to gain that advantage they would be prepared to launch Borg directly at the Founders homeworld. Thousands of them. It will only take one Borg to infect the entire collective (with Borg nanites). Any battle after that point is purely a mop-up operation. The Dominion is now controlled by the Borg that grows new drones with the biological distinctiveness of the Founders.
In the end, the Borg now have access to drones that can survive in almost any environment and can now form any tool needed to do a job without the energy requirements that personal replicators the Borg normally have. In other words, the power they used to expend is now realloted for more endevors of the Borg Collective.
jaspr1999 well. When the founders shape shift, at least some forms will not stay assimilated (as the nanoprobes likely cannot stay bonded to gas for example)
@@darksol99darkwizard The question boils down to, when nanoprobes are injected to a founder, how fast will they take over consciousness, can the founder turn into gas before that happens? I guess dropping a few nanoprobes in the great link will turn it into the great unimatrix.
The borg nanoprobes from Voyager battle with species 8472 would be able to adopt and assimilate the founders.
Wrong! They can't assimilate the Founders. The Borg can only learn about biological species through assimilation. (As stated by Hugh in TNG)
In Voyager they couldn't learn about species 8472, because they were resistant to assimilation. (There simply is no way to assimilate fog or fire with nanites, for example)
Janeway also mentioned that the Borg learn through assimilation, not through study.
You are also vastly underestimating the Dominion's recources. Even if the Borg would send 10 cubes, the Dominion would just swarm them with hundreds of fighters, taking them out easily, with kamikaze if needed.
The Borg wouldn't stand a chance, and would lose interest quickly, as they want to be efficient.
It would take vast resources to conquer the Dominion, likely thousands of cubes, and that is simply not their way. The Borg would quickly realize that it would be way more efficient, to assimilate other species first, and expand that way. They have time, they are patient.
I'd be more interested to see how the Borg would get on against The Swarm.
I did see that in one of the books a Founder made contact with The Borg and it increased it's own density to crush the nanomachines. It didn't change it's shape but it was still able to destroy the Borg nanomachines.
Also I do think that the Borg would show more interest since the species in Dominion Space all see the Founders as either gods or perfect shapeshifters. A race bent on seeking perfection would probably be interested a bit more than usual
You have my greatest sympathies for the loss of your four-legged family member. I'm a Veterinary Technician, I assist with euthanasia on a near daily basis, it's never easy. I'm sure she knew she was loved and had a long and happy life.
I hope you remember what you said if you're ever euthanize
You are AWESOME Phlarb ! The three times I had to put a cat down , the doctor and the techs were very sympathetic towards me and understood my loss . They were just wonderful and I'm sure you and your staff are too . GOD Bless . (16 September 2018 1640 hours)
I dont believe the Dominion would stand a chance tbh.
Some huge issues you forgot is the Borg have incredible shielding that automatically adjusts itself.
The Dominion is weak in the sense that their power comes from a large variety of races and it's not guaranteed they would be willing to fight or maybe even use it as a time to rebel.
And i do believe their warriors could be assimilated even with their addiction because you forget they take on ALL races and then "improve them".
The most crucial thing is even if they assimilate even one person of importance, from any race, the borg then instantly knows everything that person knows.
Tactics, defenses, weaknesses, how their ships, weapons and shields work, locations of everyone and everything.
They might simply make a straight charge to the capital home world and wipe the founders out in a single attack, which would doom their entire empire instantly, they are way too dependant on their founders.
They rely upon all races combined while the borg works as a flawless single entity.
The dominion warriors are strong, yes, but the borg would step on them as if they were children.
They can simply push Klingons out of their way, sending them flying and even as strong as data is they are a huge challenge.
The dominion warriors might be fanatical, but there were several times they rebelled against the Dominion and some even got rid of their addiction by themselves.
You're nuts if you think the Dominion could beat 10 Borg cubes.
K
I think they could win against 10 cubes(kamikaze runs) but to say the Borg would be badly weakened by the attack is just a jokes.weve seen in Voyager if the Borg wants something they would send another cubes to over power there opponents.and why they didn't do this against the Federation well it wouldn't make a good tele end of star terk.
Didn't the borg get their ass kicked by one intrepid-class ship on multiple occasions?
Nuts are irrelevant
Depends what domainon ships
They would send 47 cubes. No more, no less. 47.
Boom
Don't you mean 42?
why not 6 tactical cubes 40 normal cubes and 17 spheres so a fleet of 63 borg ships no more no less
Mary Jo Savulich why not that plus 6 drones with spacejetpacks to get 69?
Scrolled past, then thought for a second.
A Borg Changeling.
Not many fictional things give me the same chill as a nuke.
The Borg work like increasing difficulty spikes in video games, they send one cube, you destroy it, so they send 10 more, if you managed to defeat those 10 cubes they would send 100 more. It's not a question of who would win, it's how long would the Dominion survive. If 8472 wasn't at war with the Borg , the Borg would have done this to Federation after they defeated Locutus.
The Borg would make very short work of the Dominion, not unlike Godzilla looking under his foot for what may or may not be left of Bambi.
Whenever I consider how the Brog assimilate a founder, I have the image of a jam jar in my head with all the wires and diodes.
I don’t think it would work. Like assimilating jelly
I imagine a drone taking a wizz into the great link.
Sorry but even the Q say DON'T PROVOKE THE BORG!!!! The dominion would be fodder.
I intend to do a lore craft on the Q and the Borg.
Lets be honest, it's Voyagers Q!
The Q aren't afraid of the Borg ... they simply don't want to mess around with them because they are already a ''messy'' element in Galactic (and possibly even Q) affairs. I personally think that the Q did in the past 'use' the Borg in some way (and I have my own theories as to how) and they regret it, but they are either unable or unwilling to undo what they did, so they developed a non interference principle.
They are probably simply exhibiting a ''we learn from our mistakes'' philosophy.
Philip Dunne nope they fear them.
Talyn Ó Dochartaigh - doubt it. It's far more likely they are afraid of the consequences of meddling in Borg affairs. The consequences to galactic history. The Q (as a continuum) have a very different morality and ethos than the Q who visits the Enterprise.
The only time the Borg would send 100 cubes if they think the species is worthy of assimilation and if they caused big damage and were a big threat to the Borg the Borg would sent hundreds or thousands and they would f*** the Dominion 😂
I don't know about that. This video actually is correct in saying that we've only seen the Borg attack one ship at a time. I believe the largest reason for that is distance. Earth is really far away from Borg space. I believe that in the Voyager episode Endgame, the Borg were planing on swarming Earth through the network hub that was hidden in the nebula. Janeway crippled the Borg for a good century or so. No one ever said anything about the Borg not advancing beyond the Delta Quadrant. I simply think its that space is so big that the Borg hasn't really had much of a chance to go beyond the Delta Quadrant. The only reason the one or two ships did was because Q provoked them during TNG.
@@jamescannon2587 There is the question that we barely know how the Borg reacted when threatened by an empire sized threat in the Delta quadrant. The video ends with both sides lose but ignores the fact the Borg could send a 3rd wave of Cubes and the Dominion Empire would be exhausted. That is only a fraction of the Borg empire that faced them.
Borg resources are not endless. especially the biological ones. those eventually will die of old age, then they turn into Zombies with plenty Borg implants
"A borg cube????"
"No, sir. 10 borg cubes."
In my head cannon, the Dominion and the Borg were already at war during the time of DS9, or would have been within a few decades as their respective territories continued to expand, but both sides had such vast territories that even major campaigns against each other would not have much impact on life on the other ends of respective territories. It's been confirmed behind the scenes that the Dominion already knew about the Federation long before the Federation knew about the Dominion, and were preparing for a conflict in the future. Only the surprise discovery of the Bajoran Wormhole forced the two great powers into conflict ahead of schedule. If the Dominion knew about and were preparing for conflict with the Federation long in advance of their actual direct meeting, it stands to reason that the Dominion also knew about the Borg, and had plans for that confrontation as well, long before such a confrontation took place.
Remember that many in the Dominion didn't really know that they truly served the Founders, or the Dominion itself, and the Dominion was constantly spreading its influence through various representatives. Even the Vorta were rarely seen. How much would the Borg really know about what they were up against, assimilating races along the periphery? Meanwhile the Founders were sending out baby Changelings to scout the whole galaxy, for hundreds of years, maybe thousands. The Dominion was founded 10,000 years before the events of DS9. That's plenty of time, even at low warp speeds, to find out about the Borg, even before the Borg became a major galactic power.
The conclusion I would reach is that the Borg would be defeated by the Dominion, probably easier than the Federation beat the Borg at nearly every confrontation. The Borg are formidable, but they have plenty of weaknesses. Meanwhile the Founders can use all sorts of crafty bioweapons to attack the biological component of the Borg Collective, and send seemingly endless waves of Jem'Hadar, who have no compunctions about kamikaze attacks and other extreme methods of resistance the Borg would have a lot of trouble contending with. We also saw that the Dominion had many technologies, including weapons and shields, that were quite advanced and unlike anything else the Federation had ever seen before, and I'm including technologies seen by Voyager traveling through the Delta Quadrant where the Borg seemingly originated. Dominion transporter technology, that could beam across lightyears, would be a significant tactical advantage over the Borg, especially when paired with their understanding of biological weapons.
In the end, the answer is kind of obvious, isn't it? The Dominion proved to be the biggest existential threat to the Federation ever seen, delivering serious defeats to the Federation many times with only a fraction of their total forces, and the Borg got beat by the Federation pretty much every episode in which they appeared. The Dominion was only defeated by the Federation through a literal deus ex machina. Even if the Borg were able to assimilate Dominion technologies, and adapt to Dominion weapons and tactics, the Dominion would never actually be defeated. I would posit that the Founders themselves would by nature of their biology be highly resistant to assimilation, and they would likely see the Borg coming and escape any direct attack on their homeworld(s), regardless. As shapeshifters, I don't believe they had serious ties to any one world, and would happily move out of the way of any Borg expansion until they could devise a permanent solution and defeat the Borg outright (likely a bioweapon). The genetically engineered cleverness of Vorta scientists, and the natural cleverness of the Founders themselves, would surely be at least as good as whichever Starfleet officers happened to go up against the Borg in a given Star Trek episode.
I disagree that the Dominion would be crippled and fractured by an invasion of 10 Borg Cubes, even as I agree with the initial scenario posed for a first contact between the two powers. The fact is, we've seen in DS9 the sheer speed of Dominion shipyards and soldier cloning facilities. The Dominion is going to have no problem at all maintaining its strength to enforce its rules on the other races in its territory, even if they take major losses on a routine basis in an extended war between the Borg and Dominion.
The video brings up a very good point, though, which is would the Borg even want to assimilate the Dominion? Most of the races are of minor significance, technologically, as the Founders kept their various annexed civilizations at a level that posed little threat to the Founders themselves. The Vorta of course would commit suicide rather than be assimilated, and the Jem'Hadar, while formidable, are merely soldiers with very little in the way of culture and technology of their own that would be valuable to the Borg. They'd make excellent tactical drones, and the Borg would surely be able to cure them of the Ketracel White addiction, but the real prizes of the Dominion from a Borg perspective are the Vorta and Founders. I think the Dominion would make it so difficult for the Borg to win those prizes, that it might as well be impossible. The Borg would have to commit so many forces that they simply would not be willing to commit. As the video points out, it's not really in their nature to wage total war like that.
My vision of a 100-years-after-VOY galaxy is one of three major powers, the Federation, the Dominion, and the Borg, locked in a sort of permanent stalemate, with very few minor powers not yet absorbed by one of the three. There might be periodic skirmishes as each tries to gain the upper hand, but any serious push in one direction would expose one's flank, so it would remain a three-way cold war. Maybe that's not so exciting, but it does feel the most realistic when you consider the weaknesses each power has, and the risks any of them would take of betrayal should an alliance take place between any two (e.g. Scorpion, Part II). Their ideologies are simply incompatible with each other.
I see the Borg as being actually the least technological by that point, not being inventive independently. Once they fall far enough behind technologically, they're not going to be able to catch up through innovation, and assimilation will become increasingly difficult if not impossible. We saw in Endgame how technology only 26 years more advanced than the Federation at the end of VOY was seemingly totally superior to that of the Borg, and capable of effectively defeating assimilation. The Dominion would likely come up with their own solution to the assimilation problem. The Borg would spend its days sending occasional single Cubes at various border systems to test defenses, but little else.
The Dominion is capable of total war, and would likely have the most technology, but they would struggle to engage the Borg because they seek order and dominance, and they'd need to conquer the entire hive mind of the Borg to actually have a victory, and the Borg would be too numerous to ever really conquer. The choice would be to simply wipe out the entire Borg Collective, and that would be too great a challenge, I think, even for the Dominion. The Dominion would probably focus its efforts on subverting the Federation, but the Federation having already fought one war with them would be on the lookout for Changelings and so again it would be very difficult. I envision a very large neutral zone and a lot of monitoring stations between the Federation and Dominion, making open hostilities virtually impossible without catastrophic response opening the Dominion up to the Borg.
The Federation of course is all about the Prime Directive and I don't see them pursuing war against the Dominion or the Borg except if attacked first, and then they are unlikely to engage in the sort of genocidal total war that would be required to seriously expand into either power's territory. If anything, the Federation would pursue an effort of de-assimilating the Borg, which the Borg would probably respond to by blowing up their own ships, so the Federation would give up that plan. Then they'd try to apply political and cultural pressure on the Dominion to try to turn it into a happy-go-lucky democratic society, which the Dominion would respond to with more genetic engineering and internal oppression to keep everyone in line. Then a bunch of Starfleet officers would be courts-martialled for their Prime Directive-breaking schemes and everyone would go back to their crazy and dangerous scientific experiments and out-of-control holodeck programs.
three powers huh what about those dinosoar's that evolved on prehistoric earth and left earth millions of years ago as a spacefaring race that voyager finds in the delta quadrant they where more powerfull seeming than the borg wouldnt they pose a power beond the borg and the dominion
You fucking legend! And that last paragraph omg crying mate lmao
According to Daniels, there are two major powers in 26.century: Alliance of Federation+Klingons (probably without Romulans) and Sphere Builders. There are also Tholians. Romulans with help of Future guy can be very technology advanced but low in numbers. Or anyone else like in Star Trek Online (Iconians) or A.I. (The Control or V'Ger).
🛸 Personally, I give the edge to the Borg. The Borg have often used multiple cubes, sending one, followed by multiple, followed by still more. They have the resources to do that almost indefinitely, while Dominion resources are apparently much less.
Assimilation is quick, so (assuming the Borg would even want to assimilate the Vorta or Jem'Hadar - neither very impressive) there would be little time to commit suicide and the collective is setup to isolate & cure illnesses within it. If the Borg couldn't assimilate the Founders, they'd simply kill the Founders (not an unusual Borg tactic - their goal is territory, technology, and resources, not any one particular species).
Yet they never do that. They always just send one cube. The dominion on the other hand fanatically kamikaze there ships into a galaxy class ship
One thing about drones that always drove me nuts was the injectors. Nanomachines? Release them in a cloud(think cyborg farts). Yes, maybe not as efficient as direct injection but a lot more difficult to defend against. And it could be a "death toot" if you will. Injectors for normal operation then on drone death it releases a cloud of nanoprobes to take down hostiles.
Just a thought.
The Borg would send more then 10 cubes, they know from the first encounter with the dominion what tactics the Hem hadar should use. The federation ships was far more advanced compared to the attack ships used by the Dominion. Realistically the Borg would have sent at least 100 Cubes to crush the Federation, Klingons and the Romulan Star Empire. Dominion power comes from numbers. Once the Borg adapt to the Dominion weapons game over. The value of the founders themselves would be useless for the the Borg. The vorta and other species in the Dominion would add to the Borg.
A Borg VS Dominion war would a Brutal affair and costly for both sides. All in all this vid. is pretty balanced
Anyone thinks the Borg could win is retarded. It's like saying the Galactic Empire could defeat the Imperium of Man!
Nobody tried ramming the Borg Cube?
Directed Asteroids and Rail-Guns would destroy that piece of junk!
Anybody tried sending spam or computer viruses?
Nobody tried teleporting into the Cube?
(A single dude with a shotgun or rifle can kill every Borg Drone inside the Cube)
I wish Generation Tech would do a video on Wolf 359
But this scenario has the war being fought in the Dominion. This is hardly representative of who is stronger. The Borg just send in a few cubes to be met by the entire Dominion fleet.
The analysis should have had them meet on neutral ground, or perhaps compared what an invasion by the Dominion might have looked like.
would be interesting to see one guy trying to kill thousands of drones with a shotgun -.-
dream on! borg are by far superior!
Borg Drones are weak against physical attacks
(Being smacked by the butt of a rifle kills them and swords work well with their exposed heads)
Picard killed two of them with a Tommy Gun
A Navy Seal with an AA-12 could kill every single Borg Drone or Queen
Explosive weaponry would kill dozens of them!
Honestly, Horse Archers would kill them just as easily as they do Zombies!
I have a different idea for a fanfic universe I've been working on for years. A group of rogue Q "children" break away and decide it would be fun to see what would happen if the Borg and Dominion are brough together, enhanced, then set upon the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Much boom ensues.
I have to disagree with the comment section here. The Borg are more intimidating than they are lethal.
I doubt the Dominion would just suicide rush them. They've been known to set traps and make plots with the best of them. And what the Dominion lacks in scientific curiosity, they make up for in psychological curiosity. Almost every time we see them capture Federation personnel, they create elaborate tests to find the prisoner's resolve. Obviously there isn't much there with Borg psychology, so the Dominion would get a deep understanding of their motives very quickly.
When you know your enemy and know yourself, you have what you need to win. The Dominion would dangle the possibility of assimilating the Founders in front of the Borg's face, and then lure them into a trap.
Really you think The Borg having assimilated thousands of species they would not have encountered species like The Dominion. What about the Hirogen
Oisin Murphy seriously, his argument gets rekt if you actually think logically about it.
ever notice that the Hirogen look like Jem'hadar? Personally it makes me wonder if the Founders took some Hirogen and modified their DNA to make the Jem'hadar...
@@sheilaolfieway1885 I wondered the same thing when i first watched an episode that included the Hirogen.
@@JA-rn5qv if you play Star trek online you get an even deeper storyline of the dominion.
I was hoping that there was a book or something that talked about it, but this was a pretty good alternative
The weapons at Chin'toka were developed during the war by the Gul Damar (assuming you referring to the orbital weapons platforms) and were purely alpha quadrant designs in origin as the primary weapon was Plasma torpedoes (granted the raw materials needed to build them may have been supplied by the Dominion) and given the timeline you stated in this video those weapons wouldn't have existed.
The borg vs the Cylons would be a great video
Warlord Gantas that would force them join forces with the 12 colonies.
Borg would win imho
Well done. Only factor I think that's makes a difference is this: the borg outside of this "war" would continue to grow and have much more resources to keep fighting and eventually win out right. Thanks
After the 1st assault, The Borg would never come in at the edge of Dominion space, they'd come in near it, as in Voyager's Endgame, about a light year from Earth. They don't commit the same error twice.
The Borg would have assimilated The Dominions technology in full after a first engagement, it's what they do.
The Dominion have always depended on brute strength. They are too full of themselves, it was their downfall. Millenia in a false belief in their superiority have dulled their judement, especially before wrangling with The Feds.
Section 31 bore this out. If The Feds can beat them, The Borg @ full strength would decimate them, easily.
If this happened b4 Wolf 359, The Borg are @ full strength. Voyager hasn't even been built yet much less found or attacked their central Unicomplex yet.
Result, The Borg would leave @ most a ship or 2 to fend of The Dominion as the rest continued on and if they couldn't assimilate The Founders, utterly destroyed their Homeworld.
Game over.
very good analysis !
I'm certain the Borg would refuse to destroy the Founders unless they viewed them as repulsive rivals. More likely is that the Borg would consider the Founders the most important target for assimilation.
I'd say the Borg relies on brute strength more than the Dominion. You forget about the Vorta, designed to be slimy diplomats and overseers. It's revealed the true strength of the Dominion is the Founders themselves who infiltrate and poison from within. That's why it's poetic Sector 31 flipped the script and poisoned them in the end. Unfortunately that means the Borg can't use the same method since Starfleet cured the shape shifters in return for peace.
Keep in mind that we only know of the Borg because Q selected them as the perfect test for humanity's hubris. Would the Dominion pass it?
The Borg would just adapt to where they didn't need the drug. I mean that's what nanoprobes are for( among many other things) right?
I'm actually guessing that the Founders HAVE sparred with the Borg. I mean, they're near neighbors after all, the Dominion is WAY closer to the Borg than the Federation is and we know at least one transwarp conduit goes there (the one the Voyager stumbled through).
In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but to me, all the precautions taken by the Founders, the drug addiction, the suppression of other "solids," and the diposable nature of their soldiers, suggests deliberate well-panned anti-Borg measures to me, and that the Dominion has been HEAVILY SHAPED by the measures they've taken to restrict the Borg and keep them out of Dominion territory.
Also, I very much doubt that the borg can assimilate the Founders. if they could, with a common border with the Borg for up to 10,000 years, there's NWIH the Dominion would still exxist. It's guaranteed that the Dominion has been tested by the Borg, and it's self-evident that the Dominion survived that test.
(DS9 Spoilers Warning)
Well we know the dominion was able to put together a massive reinforcement fleet to bolster the alpha quadrant dominion forces. The fleet consisted of 2,800 Jem'Hadar ships. (DS9: "Sacrifice of Angels") This deployment did not seem to effect the dominion home territory in any real way. So it can be considered that this was their remaining fleet or at least the part not used to police their space. A caveat being that the Dominion was not in a position to send another fleet after the loss of the large 2,800 strong group.
Even if the dominions weapons, shields and other technology was totally adapted to, with that many ships simply ramming the cubes would still result in an easy victory for the dominion.
Even if the Borg deployed a 100 cubes, (which they don't) it would still be a fair fight. Against any smaller Borg forces it IMO would be a relatively easy victory for the Dominion.
Though it should be noted the dominion had plenty of time to gather this massive fleet in DS9, so it might not be possible to gather in such numbers on shorter notice.
- Also in the case of a 'Total War' where both sides used everything they had, then Borg victory would likely be the only outcome. Due to their massive fleet of ships, each worth an enemy battle group. Though we were never given a fleet estimate for the borg.
FUZKEK sheer numbers favor the Borg vs the dominion
FUZKEK Given a Borg population estimate of "Trillions" (we'll go with 2 Trillion to get the "s" in trillions) and assuming 3-400 Million to man essential Matrixes and Hubs, then that's enough Drones to man 15,381,538 capital-class Cube vessels.
Andrew King there's a terrifying thought. 1 cube is bad enough, 10 horrifying... Here come 1,000,000? 10,000,000? Lol.
Andrew King yes but let's remember not all Borg are on ships. Remember in first contact the assimilated population of earth remained on the planet.
In Scorpion part 2 of Voyager the Borg lost like 300+ cubes in one battle alone, so their fleet must be enormous.
I have never seen a video where my heart was broken instantaneously upon starting. This one did. My condolences on the loss of your precious pupper. There is nothing like the selfless love of a loyal dog. I cried a hell of a lot when my Dee Dee died in puppy birth. I'll raise a glass to you and your loyal friend.
Also, I believe that the only REAL defense the Dominion had would be the eagerness to commit suicide of the Vorta or Gem' Hadar to thwart giving up vital intel. This tactic would only force the Borg to develop other ways of gathering the information they'd need to continue their assimilation of the Dominion. It would be a set back; nothing more.
Remember what you said about tactics and realize that the Borg would react differently toward the Dominion BECAUSE of their reaction to their initial attack (as it would certainly differ from the Federation) (because the Federation are pussies). Increased aggressiveness would be the natural calculation of a cybernetically generated response. I.E., More cubes, tactical cubes, and spheres.
10 cubes? try a thousand AS A RESULT of their setbacks in the initial assault.
I must have listened to this over 20 times. And I still enjoy it. Just hearing that both the Borg and the Dominion would be so crippled after a long and bloody crusade against each other puts a smile to my face everytime. Guess I'm not a fan of the "Bad guys". Thanks and keep up the great videos!
Yeah. He’s wrong. The borg wouldn’t be crippled. At all. Only plot has kept the borg from destroying everyone everywhere
The wild card in this is the Founders themselves! I can't see them being assimilated myself. That said,as a Borg fan,the Dominion will get their chronometers cleaned!
"What the Borg can't assimilate, the Borg destroys."
The Founders, like Species 8472, would not be able to be assimilated. However, the alien races under Founder rule would all be assimilated. Then, the Founders would be destroyed.
@@stevenlitak2464 Vorta would kill themselves and the Jem'Hadar have no info about the Founders, the Founders could move to a new homeworld and crank out new Jem'Hadar and Vorta all over the galaxy. I suspect Jem"Hadar would board cubes and damage the ship and kill drones in melee combat from the inside.
if the borg could keep the founders in a solid form like the cardassian device then they could be assimilated
The Jem Hadar fighter doesn’t “compromise” anything.
It COMPRISES the majority of the fleet.
3:45 into the vid- "The standard Borg Cube can take up to 70 per 6 damage..." 🤣😂 I'm dying here! And before any of you trolls start berating and admonishing me for pointing this out, you should know that I LOVE Lore Reloaded's videos. He's awesome, concise, and on point in almost every single video he posts. It just struck me as funny the way he said it is all. Thank you for that, Loremaster Prime! I've had a really bad day and it was hugely cathartic and refreshing to have a good laugh while also expanding my views on the Trekverse!
Sorry for your loss.
My cat passed away back in August.
God Bless and Rest in Peace Atilla and my pet cat Kitty.
I'm sorry about your cat ;( Thank you for your words.. She's not suffering anymore.
Kitty is a boy but thanks all the same.
+Lore Reloaded Sorry Lore, gonna disagree massively on this one! ;-D
Your using ships in canon from 2367 for the Borg but ships from canon in 2372/73 for the Dominion, what gives? That seems abit skewed, so as to utilise only the Borg ships seen in the TNG, long before we see the diversity and adaptability of Borg technology in the voyager epsiodes which, incidentally, are also in the 2372/73 period. Would it not have been more balanced and more constructive to utilise the same time scale for this criteria?
As to other points your make,
The Jem'Hadar would make excellent warrior drones and the Ketracel white, could be synthesised by the Borg, either in their bodies (like most nutrition the biological parts of a drone require, are synthesised) or in an alcove during regeneration. I feel this invalidates your point here.
*Only as many Cubes as needed* We see that this is not the case in the Voyager episode Dark Frontier part 2, in which seven returns to the collective under duress. Seven and the Queen are at the vanguard of a fleet of cubes and a diamond, assimilating a local species. The number of cubes and the diamond present, seems far more than would be required for this one world and it's paltry fleet, that is dispatched with ease. I would posit, that the Borg send out only one or two cubes, when travelling at great distance and the assimilation of a target is not high priority or in close proximity, meaning less disruption to the collectives other goals, by sending a larger force. Thus, if the priority was deemed high enough (relevant technology, biological distinctiveness) or the presence of a nearby transwarp conduit made proximity and therefore disruption to the borg collective minimal in sending a larger force, the Borg could and would do so. In my opinion
Now I'm not saying that the Borg would send a hundred cubes, but it is conceiveable that they might send, say, two tactical cubes, one to three regular cubes, several spheres and maybe a diamond or two. I believe, that with the cubes alone, the Borg would stand a good chance of gainiing a sizeable foot hold in dominion space, IF they were not going for the Founders homeworld specifically. But prioritising high population worlds, perhaps the Vorta homeworld (which might ellicit a more sluggish response from the Dominion/Founders) Not to mention the potential carnage if the Borg assimilate a cloning facility!!
The Borgs ability to adapt, is, I think, downplayed massively in the tv shows and even in other materials as they are the villains and thus, they HAVE to lose lol But I suspect they could discern how to prevent the Dominions most pressing technological edges, from the personal cloaking devices of the Jem'Hadar, the White, the shield bypass transporter tech etc. The Dominion would have an advantage in numbers to begin with but if we were to talk all out war, I sincerly believe the Dominion would be wrecked lol
While I agree with some of your post I would point out that by 2372 the Borg ships had adapted to deal with various other technologies and civilizations, conversely it's likely that the fleet makeup of the Dominion forces were essentially unchanged between 2367 and 2372. Remember, he did say that in this scenario the Borg attacks on the alpha quadrant hadn't happened so their ships wouldn't have been so adapted. In light of this I think the comparison is fair.
Your welcome to your opinion, I still feel, that, regardless of the contact with the federation, the borg are in possession of far superior ships, than the one sent to earth in 2267, tactical cubes and the like. The arbitrary decision to choose ship profiles from two seperate series and time brackets, places undue emphasis on the military capacity of the Dominion, over the Borg.
Thats just poor practice.
The Dominion might have an advantage in numbers compared to a small expeditionary fleet, but definitely not overall. The unicomplex itself is canonically known to house trillions of drones and hundreds of ships.
yea i was thinking the same way.
"as they are the villains and thus, they HAVE to lose"
Every federation victory and escape described accurately.
My old STO liberated Borg captain did have a background involving the dominion. The Borg did attack the dominion roughly around 2402, but in a change of behavior, the Borg mainly struck areas that had technology they wanted, grabbed it, and left. Trans warp allowed them to do hit and run tactics. Technology grabbed: Genetic engineering and species creating, cloning tech, virtual life simulations (the one Chief O'brien), ship construction, and general technology that happened to be near by. Also, the Borg did some preparation and had weapons and methods already worked out to deal with Jem'hedar tactics. One of the plans was no long term engagements. All this was done so the Borg could grow create vast numbers of replacement designed drones to boost their numbers.
The Dominion actually asks the Federation for help, and a task force is sent. They arrive in time for the last Borg raid, though to only discovered a wiped out Dominion fleet and several disabled Borg vessels. A third party intervened here, but the Dominion would not come forth on what the Borg were after at this location and what that third party could be. The link to the collective had been severed, and several now liberated Borg are rescued by the Federation ships (where the Liberated Borg come from in my mind for STO).
"I'm rarely ever in the wrong." Haha.
What a narcissistic man...
@@teninnykanal Who? Me?
@@slevinchannel7589 You didn't said that? ;)
@@teninnykanal What?
How the Federation could have easily won the war.
Step 1: Narcotics Anonymous
I am the first
Hello the first!
One thing you neglected. The Borg adapt. They will let you hit them with your weapons, so that they can analyze them and adapt to them. Once adapted, your weapons will have 0 effect. NONE. With that in mind, a single Borg cube will wreck havoc on the Dominion.
I don't agree that the borg wouldn't use the Jemadar if they had to, sure they aren't perfect but if the borg are having trouble with the race it shows clearly they are worthy of becoming tactical drones, and i have no doubt the borg could remove the requirement for white entirely.
And lets face it, if the borg ever took a cloning facility the dominion would be screwed very quickly.
I don't know that Borg technology is equipped to stop a genetic requirement for a drug.. But even if they were, wouldn't it be easier just to assimilate surrounding planets and use those for resources?
Borg don't reproduce. The probability that they haven't assimilated functional cloning tech is near zero, yet they do not use it, just as they do not use natural reproduction.
It seems unlikely that they would fix the addiction. They are not known to fix genetic flaws. The likely means of eliminating the weakness is an implant that synthesizes the drug.
the nano probes would replace the white. and we know that the Jem Hadar can live without white if they havfe the nessecary mutation. In all the species they assimluated they have a wide field of genetic knowledge. I could seethem sendign 2 cubes next wave but depedns on htreat level they give the Dominion. also the Gamam quadrant is closer to Delta then the Alpha beta quadrants so easier to get to.
also Chintokta was a cardassian inovvation not Dominion.
"I am Locutus of Borg"
ua-cam.com/video/12SFxuiS7cc/v-deo.html
I agree, and even if the Jemadar aren't useful to the Borg except as cannon fodder, Borging them gains intelligence.
It makes more sense for the Borg simply to destroy the Founder's home star. Not even the Founders could stand against a supernova.
Borg needs Plot Armor to win against inferior foes like the Federation, they ain't gonna live long against the Dominion
Christian... Borg needs plot armour to beat "Main character armour". You realise that the Federation wins in the end due to being the "good guys", right?
except the founder homeworld is a rogue planet in the Omarion Nebula
I think 🤔 the first goal of the Borg is to assimilate the location of a species (or empires ‘),homeworld,therefore that rogue planet homeworld of founders must have a set rotating course for over at least 10000 years or more,therefore the Borg would have initially studied the rogue planet’s course and probable current location.the founders ‘ homeworld would possibly have stored the planet’s defenses’ ,(which would be more extreme than even the defenses of earth 🌏,romulan-reman system,tholian assembly, etc,but not as impenetrable as species 8427-undine),therefore,the Borg would penetrate the shields of another dominion vessel,then study 📖 the dominion homeworld defenses and also insidiously secret plant a covert tracking device on a dominion war vessel ,for tracking locations and relay information about defenses around hopefully the dominion homeworld,with other important dominion sectors and facilities,also!borg would attempt to assimilate the changeling species,(after a borg queen 👸 uses trap to acquire a changeling infiltrator -hopefully,(if I may use the term hope for the living death 💀 of the earth 🌏 human base probe voyager accidentally slipped through wormhole then altered by civilization of androids then infected by borg consciousness then Borg assimilation broke out then Borg queen 👸 functionality created from an assimilated species of extreme technology and brain 🧠 functions!)if borg could not assimilate dominion changeling founders species then Borg collective could utilize knowledge of dominion homeworld defenses then utilized insidious covert surprise attack with a weapon and disease then send needed numbers of Borg cubes,queen vehicles, etc from borg field hive area built within remote area of gamma quadrant,to overwhelm dominion homeworld suicide ships with innocent 😇 forced to fight subject dominion conquered species ships!therefore, the Borg has acquired more technology and more tactical knowledge,for just few hundred years,then the dominion false parenthood complex war machine has evolved for over ten thousand years!borg assimilation of species physiology,military, and knowledge but dominion oppression control,with only needed imitation and acquire knowledge of species technology,for oppressive order against solid humanoid species,but all of conquered humanoid species ‘ threatening technology is eliminated by dominion (if possible).borg is more deadly than dominion,therefore,borg would destroy dominion,within a few decades or two centuries!
I'm not sure if the Borg have that capability. There was an episode on Deep Space Nine, however, in which the Klingons caused a massive solar flare, which destroyed a Dominion shipyard facility, so I suppose it's possible. In Star Trek: Generations Dr. Soran had developed a cold-fusion device that could destroy stars. Perhaps the Borg have access to that information.
I think you did a good job especially by including some of the politics that The Dominion may have to deal that the Borg doesn't.
What is 'the minimum that's needed'?
Example: If i send 10 cubes, I might win, but 9 cubes will be destroyed. If I send 20 cubes, I might win, but 5 might be destroyed. If I send 30 cubes, at max 1 will be destroyed. What is the minimum cubes that's needed here?
Moreover, if they send the minimum that's needed, the only relevant factors become a) the borg intelligence on the dominion and b) the ability of the dominion to adept and surpass that estimation.
But regardless. I don't see the borg losing. Just like you, I simply think that if the borg sends enough ships, they will win. Especially since the founders are all on one planet.
Also, about assimilating the jem'hadar: I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to do that. They would simply cure/remove their drug dependency. Which should be ease, especially since they alter the body with cybernetics and nanites already as it is.
I however don't see how you can assimilate a founder, because I don't see how that would work with nanites.
It's almost a stalemate. The Borg technologically are more powerful, but the Dominion is biologically superior. It's doubtful the shape shifting Founders could be assimilated, and having biological mastery they could simply design the Jem'Hadar and Vorta to die when infected by the Borg, ala a shut off switch.
I disagree on one point we have seen the Borg send 1000s of cubes, to Kevin Uxbridge world, one they deemed perfect for assimilation. I don't think we have seen the Borg actually fight anyone other than when they sent 1000s of cubes to kevin and to guinans world. So you can't just say "they would not" when they have both before wolf 359
Resistance is Futile!!!
This sounds more like, "Let's figure out the best case scenario for how the Dominion wins"
14:02 - hahaha i don't know why anyone should say that mate this was great and these videos are really fun, thanks for making them. I generally agree with what you said of course, there are thousands of possible scenarios.
You got right up to last part. If the head can't see, hear ect. It is cut off at that point. All it would take is 1 cube and they could mop up all of it.
Ah. You missed an opportunity.
You could have an introduction like "Everything I say is true. Especially the lies"
Lol A Garak entrance
Round of applause for the comment section here! Makes a great read. If a writer just sat down went through these comments and made notes you could very easily craft a great series for Star Trek: Legacy. Barely have to do any work so much material and possibilities and stories here.
"We will adapt and add your uni..." -Borg Cube is hit by 2 Heavy duty Pulse polaron cannons from a Dominion battleship and that's game, set and match kids.
It would be my understanding that the Dominion would be absolutely swarmed with cubes as the Borg would see the Dominion as a good addition to the collective.
I havent watched the Voyager Borg eps in a while but it was always one cube in the TNG stuff and from a creative standpoint they basically showed each cube is virtually indestructible and almost Godlike, monolithic in its destructive power. Obviously for the DS9 Dominion War the producers had the tech to do the opposite approach and have fleets of thousands of ships in action. An all out Borg V Dominion war would probably be a bloodbath of millions of deaths. But both territories are so huge and so distant from each other that i cant imagine one conquering the other.
I love to watch your videos. They are really awesome and I thank you for doing them!
A founder could become a Borg drone and take out cubes from the inside
Until detected
All I gotta say is, assimilated Founders will be the Ultimate Horror story of the Galaxy. Imagine Borg drones that can shapeshift as per requirement.
Wow... Just Wow... that was an amazing bit of hypothetical logic and well grounded in Startrek lore. My initial reaction was the Borg would swarm in and crush them based on Guinan's story to Picard. I agree with most of what you said for the initial encounters, but if the Borg lost those initial engagements then the dominion would only become more juicy targets for assimilation. 2 years later they would send in 20 cubes... then 2 years later 40 cubes. Then 2 years later they will send in 400 cubes. While the borgs do have almost unlimited resources, I think your analysis is correct. The Federation did manage to stop a Borg attack on earth and the Borg decided not to do another direct attack.... instead trying to go all terminator and 'flank' the federation with a backward time jump. Maybe the borg only appear to have unlimited resources to the fractured feudal races of the delta quadrant, where they can easily overwhelm small homeworlds with a few cubes... hence Guinan's 'force of nature' story. Janway's ability to not get assimilated suggests that the Borg can show some restraint when it suits them. Her subsequent visit to the 'Borg hub', suggests that the Borg control a vast empire but they are probably not as unlimited in resources as Q wanted Picard to believe... especially against species 90210... (yea yea 8472). Hey Lore, thanks for the great video, I hadn't really considered how the Borg are limited before it.
Simply analyzing the power consumption the Borg produces they would be a class 3 minimum if not class 4 species on the cardeseph scale which means they only need the energy that is required to create the mass that they would need for any resources with transporter technology they would have an unlimited amount of resources considering the amount of power consumption the collective has the simple fact that they have transwarp condwits that connect to all sectors of their just proves that difnitivly a transwarp conduit is a Newton Einstein bridge the level of energy that is needed to stabilize any wormhole is unfathomable to any technology that we see to any species in the Star Trek universe other than godlike species like the Q there's even an episode where q himself chastise his own son telling him to not provoke the borg the time frame that we're talking about when this battle there is no species more powerful than the Borg other than the godlike ones
In the "Star Trek: Destiny" trilogy, the Borg invaded Federation space with over 7,000 Cubes. "Resistance is futile - but welcome".
They also went to Romulan and Klingon territory. It was fantastic, and the best series I've read since "the Genesis Wave".
They didn’t even need the 7000 ships.
I find the concept of this video fascinating a couple of friends of mine are going to try and recreate the first battle with attack wing
Yuh know what would be a game changer... Borg adapting personal cloaks to their persons after assimilating Jem'Hadar or Vorta troops.
This discussion reminds me of a DS9 fan fic I have been thinking of writing. A Zakdorn advisor, or possibly a high ranking member of Starfleet (at least Lt Commander), is discussing strategy for the ongoing Dominion War with Captain Sisko, a Starfleet Admiral, Chanselor Martoch, and a Romulan Admiral. The Zakdorn suggests rebuilding a Starfleet shuttle craft into a flying computer with a Galaxy Class warp engine and captured Borg technology. Aside from the navigational information needed to run the autopilot, the computer will be filled with all tactical and biological data the Federation has on The Dominion. The location of known Dominion planets in the Gamma Quadrant. The complete biological breakdown of the Founders, the Vorta, and the Jem'Hadar. All technical data on Dominion war ships and cloning technology. Everything.
Then they would point it towards the Delta Quadrant, engage a Borg distress beacon on all subspace frequencies, then have the autopilot fly towards Borg space at Warp 9.9 once all living beings had beamed off of the ship. The hope being that a Borg ship will detect the beacon, assimilate the shuttle, discover this new information on The Dominion, and go to investigate/assimilate. This would spark a war between The Borg and The Dominion, which The Federation, the Klingon Empire, and The Romulans would be all too happy to help them fight . . . in exchange for the removal of all Dominion troops from the Alpha Quadrant, and the signing of a peace treaty between all four empires. As the saying goes, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".
Watching this great episode again & I am sorry about your pup, missed the dedication last time I watched. Thank you for your channel
The Dominion and the Borg have already had their fights and they still fight against each other at the border between their respective quadrants.
Hmmm, there was an episode of voyager where an alien said “ by the time they surrounded our system, 100s of cubes, we had already surrendered to our own terror “ that’s definitely evidence they’re willing to send 100s of cubes if the target is worth it.
Nicely thought out video. Thank you
Interesting perspective. This analysis made me subscribe. I look forward to your Federation/Dominion alliance versus the Borg analysis.