i recently ended a friendship of 5 years with a narcissistic dark empath. sadly, narcissists can sometimes never admit they're wrong. but the saddest part is, with fear of abandonment being a common core content BPD trait, i feel it can makes us more vulnerable to narcissistic abuse. knowing differently is a step to doing differently. thank you as always, Dr. Fox!
My mom can be very emotionally manipulative and I let 90% of it go as to not upset her. But when I talk to her that 10% of the time, she says im out to get her, waiting for her to slip up, or im thinking of someone else. No winning here
Oh, I know your pain, it really messes with you. It really helps to learn more about what you’re dealing with. Specially the gaslighting, learning that really helped me alot.
@@mebeasensei In my experience, if you're worried about it a lot but keep doubting yourself, it's *usually* happening and you're being manipulated to doubt yourself. But this is variable due to a variety of factors and is never a guarantee, I think. I would love to know how to tell better too.
very helpful! My ex would constantly talk about how much empathy she has, and would often accuse me of lacking it. But she was just projecting and would very often manipulate my emotions to get what she wanted. She was always a victim, often crying when it wasn't appropriate, just to get me to succumb to her wants or admit a wrong I didn't commit. A "dark empath" for sure! The crazy part is that I don't believe she consciously did this. It's not like she woke up one day and said "I'm going to be evil to my boyfriend hehe" It was more like her subconscious mind learned this tactic at a young age and just took over when necessary. Beyond infuriating!
@@andrewmarte6101 When I broke up with her, I gave her a few months to figure out where she was going to move to. During that time, she struggled, and asked if I'd reconsider taking her back. Obviously, this was asked for all of the wrong reasons. Just be together for her convenience. It wasn't genuine, like just about anything that came out of her mouth. Any apology I received would always sound so genuine, but then she'd do the exact same behaviors again or worse. Narcissists don't truly notice their wrong doings.
OMG, this describes exactly a family law lawyer I had the misfortune to hire. My gut instincts were telling me something was wrong with him, but he was very deceptive and manipulative. Be especially aware of these attorneys, who have a lot of power and who the state bar rarely hold accountable for misconduct. His ads and websites have a lot of emotive and fake empathy language and images.
Great video as always. I would love to see a video about how sometimes our favorite person can use their influence to control how we think and feel. I just had this experience where my FP was making me believe that someone was trying to steal them away from me (for several months). Pitting me against this person and putting little triggers about them in my head to think they were a bad person. I lived in a constant state of fear that I was going to loose her and suffered big time. The person had no idea what was going on and wasn't even really talking to my FP I found out. How do we stop this from happening? How do we recognize it that our FP doesn't have good intentions? It's really hard to see our FP as being anything but perfect.
@@DrDanielFox I haven't thought about that, I thought it was manipulation. I told her she was my FP and gave her a couple of your videos to watch, so she learned about it. She told me she could handle it and we actually had very good boundaries. I thought she was teaching me how to have a healthy friendship and we often talked about how well I was doing ( I didn't do the usual desperate things we do when we feel like we're being abandoned). It felt like whenever I got to the point where I trusted she wouldn't let this person steal her away (she would tell me that I needed to trust her) and talk about it to her, she would throw in something to put me right back into thinking this person was going to steal her away from me. I'm so mad at myself for letting this all happen and not seeing my FP as anything but perfect. My gut told me something wasn't right and after talking to my mother and her telling me to trust myself, I opened up to this person and we compared notes. That's where I learned my FP had been lying to me and taking advantage of the influence she knew she had over me. I'm going to try so hard not to have another FP, this has been very eye opening.
This also sounds a lot like triangulation which is a tactic Narcissists use to make their SO or FP (although FP is more of term used with people who have BPD) jealous in order to obtain more supply. This is without a doubt a very manipulative tactic and you should definitely remove yourself from anyone who would do this to you.👍🏻
I agree it's important to recognize emotional manipulation and be able to protect yourself from it by setting healthy boundaries, but I've gotta be honest, these labels are getting annoying. People are complex and while certain behaviors certainly should not be accepted, the reality is that we really don't know what drives every person that exhibits this behavior to act this way. You can protect yourself without reducing the other person to yet another label.
That’s key about normal human error and chaotic dysfunction. Being able to distinguish both from one another and also not doubting yourself is key. If you have been in toxic relationships you may not trust yourself to know the difference. Going to a therapist and saying this is what I’m thinking but I’m not sure if it’s coming from this or that is crucial and may bring that clarity. I was watching a video by Dr.Ramani and she was talking about a woman whose philanthropic husband left her for a married woman. That married woman and him were carrying an affair for sometime and decided to leave their spouses and marry each other. The ex wife was thinking of warning the woman. I really felt that it was a waste of time. I felt bad for the woman. I had heard of a similar situation in Esther Perel’s podcast. As I was looking for this podcast I stumble on to one of really loyal friends and their journey as pilots. I totally got lost in it. When I realized how I got immersed in that. It was a light 💡 moment. Our lives are still going on. Sometimes it’s easy to pay attention to what others say.
Is it possible for a narcissist to be both covert and overt, depending on their mood and the situation? I do wonder where I fall. I am an empath and I feel peoples emotions on a powerful and sometimes painful level. I love people as a whole and connecting with them can be a powerful experience. On the flip side, naturally taking in the feelings and knowing how good or bad it can feel, I have used that for both good and bad. Overall, I would never call myself a “Dark Empath”, but I have gone to the dark side of empathy to hurt the one(s) who hurt me. 😔
I have given up on ‘classifications’ and the whole system …you are this or that..he is this or that..comorbidity, scales, degrees of this and that…It is all a sham. It serves the psych industry and the medication and the insurance industry but not us. Now I think of ‘dynamics’…certain dynamics play out. So you could be in an overt role in one dynamic one moment, and then be in a covert role the next. Sure, certain dynamics play out more or less often and reinforce ideas of ourselves, but that doesn’t mean these pigeon holes apply.
What if this person is the lead psychiatrist for your area at CMH, you told him everything, all the repressed sexual abuse and problems controlling your emotions, then they note that they think you’re manipulating them?? I can’t afford to go anywhere else and they’re already trying to assign him as my doctor 😫 Almost went in to the emergency room last night and had what felt like an hour long panick attack last night, to the point of making me nauseous and vomiting this morning after drinking a glass of homemade apple juice 😞 I want nothing more than to feel better but it feels like all the cards are stacked against me.. After he made that comment I completely isolated myself from the very few last family members I had, now is precisely 0. Please, anyone, I Could really use some support. Also please note that I don’t want to take any punitive measures I just need to get a different doctor and nowhere else takes my insurance.
Dark empaths are also a psychopath and Machiavellianism. Even though they’re a narcissist they’re worse than just the typical narcissist. They’re harder to spot than just that typical narcissist since they mimic empathy so well. We know they only have cognitive empathy but they do pull it off pretty well. I was married to a diagnosed narcissist. He was more of the overt type. After going through years of healing , therapy, support groups I met a dark empath. I saw some red flags where I questioned if he was a narc but it threw me off some. He wasn’t the type of narcissist I was unfortunately used to from my marriage, he’s seemed different. He seemed like he had empathy and more emotional or something. I did take classes on mental heath disorders to better understand them. As time went on I realized he fit the dark triad of a dark empath. The emotional hold he has on me has been so tough to break. But I am more aware of what he is so this helps as far as some of the tactics I’ve learned as a victim of abuse to be able to not fall for all the manipulation. Unfortunately I didn’t figure him out 100 percent until it was already too late to emotionally detach myself. I did break up with him after 3 1/2 years but I’m still in daily contact and it’s hard when you love someone and realize what they are and the fact the person you fell in love with isn’t real
No, Schadenfreude can be perfectly legitimate. Let's say you're outside and you see a young man robbing an old lady by grabbing her bag and starts to run. Next thing he runs into a banana peel and falls flat on the ground, possibly hurting himself. If you get the feeling "that served him right", that is a form of Schadenfreude. For it to be "dark empathic" (I don't use this confusing term myself) there would have to be something else/more, like envy, sadism or upmanship, involved. So it is most probably a trait among "dark empaths", but id doesn't sum it up.
I stopped labelling what type my sister is. I notice she is completly oblivious about her behavior, but I’m done with her manipulation. If she can’t ‘win’ from me, she drags her husband, our brother and his wife into the arena to put me in a corner. I called her out, right in her face, that she manipulates. Gasping for air she was. 😂 And she’s not allowed to get in touch with me. Pity party big time. Soon I can completly leave the ‘scene’ as soon as my mum dies. I’ll miss my mum, but what a relieve it Will be to go no contact 100%! 🎉
Is this behavior a sign of NPD or do people with BPD also do that when they're in a grandiose phase? It had a very sneaky, calculated quality too it, not like an impulsive outburst at all. Sort of fairly calmly explaining the world to me (gaslighting me).
like your understanding and exaple lol but hate the term feel like its one of the many things being talked about in connection to the narssasitic spectrum so much people forget about even standard median of slip ups of these kinda actions or how they can fit within other disorders without being a narssasit as my asd1 partner has had struggles with this kinda behavior but not because he's on the narssasitic spectrum but because he's asd1 and only dose it if he feels as you said if he's not doing as well as he should and needing a little puck me up ... and i call it fishing lol cuz he doesn't do itto control and he never stops me from being me or puts m down if i don't give him what he fishes for but he dose do some of these behavprs and if i stayed listening to the thought of dark empath i would have never actually noticed he was just asd1 once he got into therapy and we found ut his issues i then had to switch gears of thinking i needed to leave him cuz he was a narssasit to he's different and be patent ...... i find these kinda easy to connect terms dangerous ..... cuz really i feel people will jumo to conclusions(even myself) whe we make it sound pop-culture as a adjative right ...... what happened to standard median in psychology .... even you said it make room for humen error ... that's the standard median for a lot of things including aggression ..... good video with data juts get triggered by this term as a lot of women like to label most men as dark empaths do to this new narsasisum fad
i recently ended a friendship of 5 years with a narcissistic dark empath. sadly, narcissists can sometimes never admit they're wrong. but the saddest part is, with fear of abandonment being a common core content BPD trait, i feel it can makes us more vulnerable to narcissistic abuse. knowing differently is a step to doing differently. thank you as always, Dr. Fox!
You're very welcome. I'm glad the video was helpful. Be well.
My mom can be very emotionally manipulative and I let 90% of it go as to not upset her. But when I talk to her that 10% of the time, she says im out to get her, waiting for her to slip up, or im thinking of someone else. No winning here
It’s a hard struggle. I wish you well.
Oh, I know your pain, it really messes with you. It really helps to learn more about what you’re dealing with. Specially the gaslighting, learning that really helped me alot.
How to know if you are paranoid or being manipulated!,, argh!!!
@@mebeasensei In my experience, if you're worried about it a lot but keep doubting yourself, it's *usually* happening and you're being manipulated to doubt yourself. But this is variable due to a variety of factors and is never a guarantee, I think. I would love to know how to tell better too.
Jewish, Italian or Hispanic?
very helpful! My ex would constantly talk about how much empathy she has, and would often accuse me of lacking it. But she was just projecting and would very often manipulate my emotions to get what she wanted. She was always a victim, often crying when it wasn't appropriate, just to get me to succumb to her wants or admit a wrong I didn't commit. A "dark empath" for sure! The crazy part is that I don't believe she consciously did this. It's not like she woke up one day and said "I'm going to be evil to my boyfriend hehe" It was more like her subconscious mind learned this tactic at a young age and just took over when necessary. Beyond infuriating!
Thanks for sharing.
Did she ever try coming back to you after you guys broke up and if she did, did she apologize or ever notice her wrongs to get you to go back to her
@@andrewmarte6101 When I broke up with her, I gave her a few months to figure out where she was going to move to. During that time, she struggled, and asked if I'd reconsider taking her back. Obviously, this was asked for all of the wrong reasons. Just be together for her convenience. It wasn't genuine, like just about anything that came out of her mouth. Any apology I received would always sound so genuine, but then she'd do the exact same behaviors again or worse. Narcissists don't truly notice their wrong doings.
OMG, this describes exactly a family law lawyer I had the misfortune to hire. My gut instincts were telling me something was wrong with him, but he was very deceptive and manipulative. Be especially aware of these attorneys, who have a lot of power and who the state bar rarely hold accountable for misconduct. His ads and websites have a lot of emotive and fake empathy language and images.
❤thank you 🎉 it’s very interesting content . I was awaiting for it
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you so much! The validation is very important ❤🙏🙂
You are so welcome
Great video as always. I would love to see a video about how sometimes our favorite person can use their influence to control how we think and feel. I just had this experience where my FP was making me believe that someone was trying to steal them away from me (for several months). Pitting me against this person and putting little triggers about them in my head to think they were a bad person. I lived in a constant state of fear that I was going to loose her and suffered big time. The person had no idea what was going on and wasn't even really talking to my FP I found out. How do we stop this from happening? How do we recognize it that our FP doesn't have good intentions? It's really hard to see our FP as being anything but perfect.
Sounds like gaslighting.
@@DrDanielFox I haven't thought about that, I thought it was manipulation. I told her she was my FP and gave her a couple of your videos to watch, so she learned about it. She told me she could handle it and we actually had very good boundaries. I thought she was teaching me how to have a healthy friendship and we often talked about how well I was doing ( I didn't do the usual desperate things we do when we feel like we're being abandoned). It felt like whenever I got to the point where I trusted she wouldn't let this person steal her away (she would tell me that I needed to trust her) and talk about it to her, she would throw in something to put me right back into thinking this person was going to steal her away from me. I'm so mad at myself for letting this all happen and not seeing my FP as anything but perfect. My gut told me something wasn't right and after talking to my mother and her telling me to trust myself, I opened up to this person and we compared notes. That's where I learned my FP had been lying to me and taking advantage of the influence she knew she had over me. I'm going to try so hard not to have another FP, this has been very eye opening.
This also sounds a lot like triangulation which is a tactic Narcissists use to make their SO or FP (although FP is more of term used with people who have BPD) jealous in order to obtain more supply. This is without a doubt a very manipulative tactic and you should definitely remove yourself from anyone who would do this to you.👍🏻
I agree it's important to recognize emotional manipulation and be able to protect yourself from it by setting healthy boundaries, but I've gotta be honest, these labels are getting annoying. People are complex and while certain behaviors certainly should not be accepted, the reality is that we really don't know what drives every person that exhibits this behavior to act this way. You can protect yourself without reducing the other person to yet another label.
Thanks 😊
That’s key about normal human error and chaotic dysfunction. Being able to distinguish both from one another and also not doubting yourself is key. If you have been in toxic relationships you may not trust yourself to know the difference. Going to a therapist and saying this is what I’m thinking but I’m not sure if it’s coming from this or that is crucial and may bring that clarity. I was watching a video by Dr.Ramani and she was talking about a woman whose philanthropic husband left her for a married woman. That married woman and him were carrying an affair for sometime and decided to leave their spouses and marry each other. The ex wife was thinking of warning the woman. I really felt that it was a waste of time. I felt bad for the woman. I had heard of a similar situation in Esther Perel’s podcast. As I was looking for this podcast I stumble on to one of really loyal friends and their journey as pilots. I totally got lost in it. When I realized how I got immersed in that. It was a light 💡 moment. Our lives are still going on. Sometimes it’s easy to pay attention to what others say.
yes this was me too, this dark empath as such exists within me as such
Is it possible for a narcissist to be both covert and overt, depending on their mood and the situation?
I do wonder where I fall. I am an empath and I feel peoples emotions on a powerful and sometimes painful level. I love people as a whole and connecting with them can be a powerful experience. On the flip side, naturally taking in the feelings and knowing how good or bad it can feel, I have used that for both good and bad. Overall, I would never call myself a “Dark Empath”, but I have gone to the dark side of empathy to hurt the one(s) who hurt me. 😔
I have given up on ‘classifications’ and the whole system …you are this or that..he is this or that..comorbidity, scales, degrees of this and that…It is all a sham. It serves the psych industry and the medication and the insurance industry but not us. Now I think of ‘dynamics’…certain dynamics play out. So you could be in an overt role in one dynamic one moment, and then be in a covert role the next. Sure, certain dynamics play out more or less often and reinforce ideas of ourselves, but that doesn’t mean these pigeon holes apply.
Yes
What if this person is the lead psychiatrist for your area at CMH, you told him everything, all the repressed sexual abuse and problems controlling your emotions, then they note that they think you’re manipulating them?? I can’t afford to go anywhere else and they’re already trying to assign him as my doctor 😫 Almost went in to the emergency room last night and had what felt like an hour long panick attack last night, to the point of making me nauseous and vomiting this morning after drinking a glass of homemade apple juice 😞 I want nothing more than to feel better but it feels like all the cards are stacked against me.. After he made that comment I completely isolated myself from the very few last family members I had, now is precisely 0. Please, anyone, I Could really use some support. Also please note that I don’t want to take any punitive measures I just need to get a different doctor and nowhere else takes my insurance.
Dark empaths are also a psychopath and Machiavellianism. Even though they’re a narcissist they’re worse than just the typical narcissist. They’re harder to spot than just that typical narcissist since they mimic empathy so well. We know they only have cognitive empathy but they do pull it off pretty well. I was married to a diagnosed narcissist. He was more of the overt type. After going through years of healing , therapy, support groups I met a dark empath. I saw some red flags where I questioned if he was a narc but it threw me off some. He wasn’t the type of narcissist I was unfortunately used to from my marriage, he’s seemed different. He seemed like he had empathy and more emotional or something. I did take classes on mental heath disorders to better understand them. As time went on I realized he fit the dark triad of a dark empath. The emotional hold he has on me has been so tough to break. But I am more aware of what he is so this helps as far as some of the tactics I’ve learned as a victim of abuse to be able to not fall for all the manipulation. Unfortunately I didn’t figure him out 100 percent until it was already too late to emotionally detach myself. I did break up with him after 3 1/2 years but I’m still in daily contact and it’s hard when you love someone and realize what they are and the fact the person you fell in love with isn’t real
Dark empath is just a romantic word to describe a covert narcissist
It's true that the line between dark empath and covert narcissist can be quite confusing.
Good topic. That was my psychiatrist; now he’s not. I’ve never felt better. I am fortunate I don’t need long term medications.
That’s great. Be well
So schadenfreude sums up the dark empath ?
Ja
Good perspective.
@@DrDanielFox you sir are doing God's work 🙏 thank you.
No, Schadenfreude can be perfectly legitimate. Let's say you're outside and you see a young man robbing an old lady by grabbing her bag and starts to run. Next thing he runs into a banana peel and falls flat on the ground, possibly hurting himself. If you get the feeling "that served him right", that is a form of Schadenfreude. For it to be "dark empathic" (I don't use this confusing term myself) there would have to be something else/more, like envy, sadism or upmanship, involved. So it is most probably a trait among "dark empaths", but id doesn't sum it up.
I stopped labelling what type my sister is. I notice she is completly oblivious about her behavior, but I’m done with her manipulation. If she can’t ‘win’ from me, she drags her husband, our brother and his wife into the arena to put me in a corner. I called her out, right in her face, that she manipulates. Gasping for air she was. 😂 And she’s not allowed to get in touch with me. Pity party big time. Soon I can completly leave the ‘scene’ as soon as my mum dies. I’ll miss my mum, but what a relieve it Will be to go no contact 100%! 🎉
Is this behavior a sign of NPD or do people with BPD also do that when they're in a grandiose phase? It had a very sneaky, calculated quality too it, not like an impulsive outburst at all. Sort of fairly calmly explaining the world to me (gaslighting me).
My mother has been dead for 20 odd years, still a relief.
That's dark
I understand this. For me it was my dad.
Mine is alive, but the relationship is dead. But like the undead, she still walks.
like your understanding and exaple lol but hate the term feel like its one of the many things being talked about in connection to the narssasitic spectrum so much people forget about even standard median of slip ups of these kinda actions or how they can fit within other disorders without being a narssasit as my asd1 partner has had struggles with this kinda behavior but not because he's on the narssasitic spectrum but because he's asd1 and only dose it if he feels as you said if he's not doing as well as he should and needing a little puck me up ... and i call it fishing lol cuz he doesn't do itto control and he never stops me from being me or puts m down if i don't give him what he fishes for but he dose do some of these behavprs and if i stayed listening to the thought of dark empath i would have never actually noticed he was just asd1 once he got into therapy and we found ut his issues i then had to switch gears of thinking i needed to leave him cuz he was a narssasit to he's different and be patent ...... i find these kinda easy to connect terms dangerous ..... cuz really i feel people will jumo to conclusions(even myself) whe we make it sound pop-culture as a adjative right ...... what happened to standard median in psychology .... even you said it make room for humen error ... that's the standard median for a lot of things including aggression ..... good video with data juts get triggered by this term as a lot of women like to label most men as dark empaths do to this new narsasisum fad
well we cannot choose to naive or even gullible even as such
yeah i used to do jus this as well i am super tired of this shit too
manipulative as such to your own advantage as such just being so manipulative as such just a bad intent as such
Ida Morgenstern
Thanks