Spider-Man: Maximum Carnage - Atop the Fourth Wall
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- Опубліковано 29 сер 2024
- Welcome to Atop the Fourth Wall, where bad comics burn. In this Patreon-sponsored episode, Linkara looks at the epic Spider-Man storyline Maximum Carnage!
Check out more AT4W shirts at Shark Robot: sharkrobot.com...
Title Card Art by Viga: / vigasartroom
atopthefourthwa...
/ at4w
Originally released August 3rd, 2022
ORIGINAL DESCRIPTION: Oh, sure, they SAY it's maximum, but couldn't we squeeze in some more? It's only FOURTEEN issues of it!
#at4w #marvel #spiderman
"WAIT VENOM! We're not! Cavemen! We have technology"
*starts bashing carnage with the sonic gun*
Funny how Wolverine & The X-Men (The cartoon) aired on the Nicktoons Network (Or as I like to call it now. The Nicktoons graveyard)
So the true hero we need is Sonic the Hedgehog.
…
“It didn’t work.”
having a complaint about "feel-good rays" makes no sense if you also accept "feel-bad rays" which are an important part of the plot
For some reason it makes more sense to me as long as it's some magical mutational mystery power thing than a machine
@@WlatPziupp what if it was a machine to amp Dagger?
@@bthsr7113 It would suffice
the difference is that the feels bad rays aren't actually part of the debate. the heroes are arguing whether men's hearts are inhere tly good or evil and as far as the heroes are concerned, these villains are evil. remember the FEELS BAD RAYStm only effects civillians. the villains have complex rlmotives that are well explained. but all of that was simply dismissed after the feels good rays. there is also the false dychitamies of wheter they should kill despite the badguys ne er stay dead.
@@WlatPziuppThis.
Linkara's whole career is a testament to the dangers of using the phrase "I will never..."
love that linkara brought attention to carnage's hypocrisy and self-serving philosophy- carnage isn't actually any of the big, important things he claims to be, he's just a petulant little man who wants to hurt others out of spite
I don't remember who said it, but it's a big case of "personality precedes ideology". Aka he's a nihilst because he's an asshole, not the other way around.
Combine that with the messed up family pastiche, and Carnage and company could easily sub in for the League of Villains from HeroAca.
@@lexofexcel886 Thanks for that. Now I'm trying to figure out how Carnage could work in that series. He'd have to be an evil version of Tokoyami. His quirk would have to involve blood. And Toga would be all over him.
Cletus Kassidy
Villain Name: Carnage
Quirk: Bloodletter
He is blood is actually a shapeshifting monster under his control.
One could argue that's a number of irl psychopaths, if in a sense.
Manson certainly fits a similar bill.
Ole' Charlie boy just wanted attention, acknowledgement, (things he never got from his mother, or any upbringing he dealt with).
Some psychopaths are easier to figure if otherwise not so...truly pathetic but some of them, (typically the more infamous iconic), are really just, to quote Call of Duty Black Ops 2
A sad, pitiful excuse of a man.
It ALSO doesn't help that for every Manson, Gein, Dahmer, whatever. (Poor and destitute, abused, abandoned, and resource less individual who lept into their gorge of darkness).
There are also MILLIONS of the opposite. I can't think of exact mirror examples but I CAN think of men who started off dirt-poor, in overall bad circumstances, and not only made great men of themselves for themselves, but also for their communities.
Andrew Carnegie is certainly one example (born of Irish immigrants following the potato famine for starters).
Heck, the thing about a LOT of psychopaths that I know the upbringing of (Bundy, Gracey, Charlie, and Gein if you count him as a psychopath).
Their minds are varying levels of just plain weaker (though I'd give Gein some leniency because his mother kept him isolated from the world, practically dependent on and worshiping her).
Imo Gacey had it worse than Manson with an abusive father (who supposedly at one point offed the family dog to punish his kuds), and yet even with his own psychopathic tendencies, Gacey arguably ended up better...cause he could actually HIDE his broken mind behind the well-crafted facade of a community man.
And even then there are people who could go through an irl equivalent of a Gothic Horror upbringing...and not go the full route of that very thing. They'll fear and loathe what they endured, and any like it...but in the end they ARE good people.
I like Captain America’s inclusion. It’s like when Superman showed up towards the end of No Man’s Land.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!"
*Demogoblin rushes forward and beams him with a rock* "SERVES YOU RIGHT!"
DemoGoblin: *I THREW A ROCK AT HIM!!* 🪨 *AND IT WAS A BIG ROCK!!!!*
Demogoblin: "Mine mine mine mine mine mine mine mine!"
Spiderman: "Demogoblin no!"
Demogoblin: "Demogoblin YES!" Whack
Jesus: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!
Random person: **hands Jesus a rock**
Jesus: ...this went a lot differently in my head.
Demogoblin: I am without sin!
Spider-man: Your NAME is DEMOGOBLIN!
Demogoblin: ..What? What's your point?
@@TheEmeraldWeirdo Robot Chicken already did that joke years ago...
"Only a science major can kick this much ass!" The battle cry of Gordon Freeman, Issac Clark, and any tech-based Commander Shepard.
With Carnage all one can say is this: Sometimes there is no fall from grace, no tragic backstory. Sometimes a monster is simply that...a monster. If there was a MARVEL equivalent of the Joker it's Carnage, an unstoppable force of nature that just wants to watch the universe burn and enjoy every second of it.
I like that even though they are so similar but when they met Joker disliked Carnage because of his methods as the Joker is more of a Showman preferring to make his victims suffer way morewhilst Carnage is more direct in his methods they didn't like each other at all but they are very similar otherwise
Though Carnage gave birth to something that can easily rip through both him and Venom. Toxin, now attached to Bren Waters after having one of the best partners in the form of Patrick Mulligan. Toxin defeated both Carnage and Venom single handedly when he was introduced.
My Spider-man/Peter Parker hot take: Spider-Man is at his best when he's working with others, bringing people together, and denying Peter's importance to the Marvel Universe does him a disservice. The Wikipedia page for Spider-Man supporting characters is a brick with links to nearly every superhero and superhero team, he's friends with everybody. He hasn't been "just" anything for a long time. As Far From Home put it "B*tch please, you've been to space!"
Spider-man slings a web that connects the whole Marvel multiverse together.
@@noonethatspecial Exactly! I refuse to believe Peter is "just" your neighborhood Spider-Man when he has groupchats with nearly every hero in the Marvel multiverse.
@@peggyliepmann5248 precisely why being “normal” is overrated
@@BrandontheAwesome Thats the thing, peter is an actual character with a personality, history, bonds, flaws, triumps, failures and nuance.
Miles and the other cosplayers only have the costume and powers of spiderman, but spiderman wasnt about that, it was about peter parker all along.....
The Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon defiantly captured this element of Peter and is one of my favorite incarnations of the character because of that. He brings so many people in that series together, forming about three separate teams of Heroes he leads and others he's friends with, even redeeming several villains, including Doc Oc in the finale, and getting a few of them to join Shield and do good with their lives.
Uncle Ben always taught him that with Great Power comes Great Responsibility, and he defiantly used that power very responsibly in Ultimate Spider-Man.
40:53 "She has waited for four years."
I imagine she's really losing patience with the lack of Contest updates.
To anyone who's wondering what Linkara means by "It's Morbin' Time"...
Hello, the future! Hope all is well and there's no war and traffic accidents.
If you're wondering what he meant by it, good! The meme is dead.
@@bthsr7113 The meme will never die because it's too closely related to the morphing call of the Power Rangers.
@@muigokublack6487 You're not kidding. I saw some recent comments on recent movie trailers. It's far from dead
@@muigokublack6487 I thought it was Power Rangers related. Now I wish he could a new History Of Power Rangers episode that he uploaded early in the morning of his timezone. Just so he can include the Spongebob "Who *Insert thing here* at 3 in the morning" meme. For obvious reasons.
You can’t kill “Morbin Time” Morbin Time is a symbol destroy it and a different meme will take its place
This comic sounds like Marvel’s precursor to What’s so Funny about Truth, Justice, and the American Way and Infinite Crisis!! And I’d say that in our world, perhaps now more than ever, we need Maximum Carnage!!
Was scrolling down to say the same thing regarding What's So Funny. Obviously they aren't one-to-one, but the aspects of the Main Hero supposedly rejecting their non-violent ways (and ultimately resolving things a clever way), the constant despair and urging by others to go more violent, and things ultimately resolving with an overall optimistic bend...
I'd still say I ultimately prefer the more focused narrative of What's So Funny, but I do appreciate the parallel storytelling this one does between the heroes and villains, and how it demonstrates how obviously untenable these villains were together.
@@CatComixzStudios oh absolutely! I don’t think these are exactly on par with each other, but in terms of themes, subject matter and parallelism, they are similar. And this came out in the 90s while What’s so Funny? Came out in the 2000s. But both are great, and are big examples as to why I and so many others love superheroes, and I think the messages of these comics are necessary ones that I think we would do well to remember in our modern times.
Ehhh, I don’t want the character of Carnage to become so high profile that right wing edgelords co opt him like they so readily have the Joker
@@Cdr2002 To be honest, left-wingies aren't much better as many have enacted violence, looting, and other negative things.
I'm not saying this as a rightie. I'm just a guy who is disillusioned with politics and is against both sides.
@@cadethumann8605 Oh yeah because BLM and the capitol insurrectionists are totally the same thing 🙄
Take your dissolutionment somewhere else if you’re gonna keep spitting false equivalencies at me.
"Reading from a trade so not looking at the covers" should just be considered a catch phrase now
"This power [of Dagger's] kinda comes out of nowhere!" Only in this story. She's always had some measure of "inspiring good vibes" from her light and her light daggers. She doesn't just throw daggers of light, she throws daggers of light that make people feel good feelings.
But yeah, it would make more sense in-story to establish that she ... can do that.
It’s kinda the opposite of Cloak’s power, which was demonstrated via Demogoblin. He can throw darkness at people and make them feel icy despair.
It's really weird that MJ thinks that Harry would still be alive if he'd smoked instead, but Harry went on the Goblin path from his drug usage.
I think that's what she meant. If he just picked another drug
I love Linkaras voice for Carnage. Captures the insanity perfectly.
Also I think they should bring back doppelgänger. He was a pretty cool villain.
Good Lord, it makes the Joker sound like Frank Sinatra!
Reminds me of Starscream's voice from Beast Wars.
Doppelganger showed back up last year during Extreme Carnage in Screams part of the story
Like seriously why is Linkara a UA-camr he should be a voice actor
Doppelganger has popped up in stuff, usually with Carnage.
He appeared in Carnage Vol 1 trying to free Shriek, and got sliced in half. He helped in Carnage USA to take over a town, and appeared in Extreme Carnage.
Linkara: I will never review these comics
Viewers: We have money
Linkara: Goddamnit
However, he does have limits. Remember how he said he won't do the Snyder cut of Justice League in his Batman V Superman review? That's proof. Makes me wonder if he'd turn down a Patreon request to do the Teen Titans Go movie. I think one of these days he should do a "Top Ten Comic based films I'll never review" (Update. Welp. Now that I've seen the video where he explains why he doesn't do countdowns anymore. I don't care that he'll never redo that list)
@@GatorRay Linkara: Ok but no more than 4 issues!
Viewers: Didn't you read this before?
Linkara: Goddamnit!
@@Xidphel HA!
First picture in my head on reading this comment...the spiderman/iron man money meme.
@GatorRay I Wonder what if someone would pay him double as in like for two reviews. Would he then do Snyder Cut?
As someone who read Maximum Carnage, I will always remember it as one of the best examples of how writers need to work together to write it.
In the end of one issue, Spider-Man, pushed to his absolute limit, screams he WILL kill Carnage with his BARE HANDS after seeing how many INNOCENTS have died at his hands. Next issue… Spider-Man is swinging and going ‘woops, I was a bit emotional there, I’ll stick to not killing’. Like damn I didn’t want Spider-Man to kill but at least SHOW his change!
Edit: Should say I actually really liked Maximum Carnage but it’s a bit of a sign of how comics can make even good stories dumb by just not shortening it or trying to add so much padding.
At the vary least, have Spidey convince himself that killing would make him no better than Carnage! Or show his internal debate on his conflict of him on the possibility of killing Carnage. Alia how they did the internal conflict in Spectacular Spiderman, being in Spiderman's mind
"almost lost my cool there."
I think there can be a bit of a logistical issue with things like this, especially on the art side (things like the way Black Cat was trapped under debris in different ways between two issues). The team working on the first book are going to be doing those last few pages of the issue at around the same time as another team are working on the first few pages of the next issue, with the second team possibly being ahead of the first team at certain points. There's going to be an overlap that causes differences. They can try to account for those differences (for all we know they prevented dozens of continuity issues like this) but some are going to occur all the same.
"Like damn I didn’t want Spider-Man to kill but at least SHOW his change!"
You know, if you go with that and tweak the MJ stuff a bit, you could probably fix both issues at the same time.
Instead of just having Mary Jane fret about Spider-Man while he's out doing superheroics, have her get engaged with the chaos Carnage and his group are creating as well when she gets confronted by the mob they're creating. Maybe have her meet a woman who's trying to kill some downed criminals because her husband was a police officer who was killed in duty by people like them. MJ then talks her down, convincing her that her husband became a cop to _protect_ people, not _hurt_ them. It might give away how the story's going to end too soon, but it would still fit in with its theme.
Spider-Man, meanwhile, commits to the idea that he might need to kill Carnage, and becomes more reckless as a result. He's still unable to stop the villains' rampage, but his fights are leaving more collateral damage that he would normally try to limit. When he meets back up with MJ, she snaps him out of it, convincing him that this isn't who Spider-Man should be; maybe somehow working in the famous 'With great power comes great responsibility' line, and explaining that killing Carnage wouldn't fit into it.
@@christopherwebster6354 And then have a follow up where MJ divorces Peter because she can't take it anymore. Allowing us to have a timeline where One More Day never happened.
I agree that heroes, in general, shouldn't kill. Even Captain America. However, I think his post-freeze reason for that is that he took so many lives during the war. I mean, it was WWII. He killed. I refuse to believe that he didn't. But he could very easily have used that as motivation not to kill today.
I'm of the mind that only a few heroes have a hard "never" stance, like Batman due to his emotional trauma. For most others I think it's on the table as a last, last, last resort, and it should never be taken lightly.
@@InfernoScorpion14 That's a good policy.
@@SchazmenRassir I think that the best scene to follow a hero being forced to kill someone… is to have them break down emotionally, crying and weeping as they realize what they had to do.
If you’re gonna have a hero kill, don’t have them be happy about it
@@NoahDaArk Similar to what Man of Steel attempted to do, but utterly failed because of the horrendous character writing for Clark up to that point.
@@SchazmenRassir EXACTLY! That’s why that scene sucks! The film and Clark were so poorly written that it robbed the moment of any real weight.
If Clark had been concerned about the lives of others, of protecting the innocent and trying to ensure that the violence was kept to a minimum, THEN it would of had some impact. But unfortunately Zack Snyder isn’t exactly good at “subtlety”
This episode was JUST uploaded, so there might be glitches and the video quality may take a few minutes to get to HD. Please be patient and refresh if you encounter any issues.
Ok, thanks for letting us know!
Thanks Marvel Zombies next please ?
BTW;
I am ALL for An Amalgam Comics Month!!!
Thank you!
I still remember when you made the 15 comics you'll never review. Good times. (Though I have a feeling that list will fully not age well one of these days.)
Something I've seen talked about in regards to Captain America and his stance on the "superheroes-shouldn't-kill" is his stance on what he had to do during World War II. Obviously, being on the front lines of a war is a lot different than operating as a costumed hero during peacetime, and he viewed killing enemy combatants as a grim necessity. However, after the war, he went out of his way to avoid killing his enemies.
Very well put. As a member of the avengers, he was no longer a soldier and free to take more disarming methods to defeat his foes. It’s why I think the MCU got him perfectly.
@@Savagewolver Yet despite Broady taking up the mantle of Iron-Man in the comics. I'm shocked they haven't had him become the MCU's next Iron Man (Heck there's an obvious title for the movie where it happens. The Next Iron Man)
You know I think Spiderman being the one to decry what antiheros had become is poetic considering that by the definition of an antihero, a hero who defies the typical bounds of what a hero can be, Spiderman was arguably an antihero due to inner self doubt from early on since it wasn't something a you would see in a hero at the time and went against what they thought a hero should be. So having who could arguably be one of the earliest mainstream antiheros stand against the violence that had been pushed on them is beautifully fitting.
Ignoring the robots thing for a moment, the portrayal of Richard here is in like with why I don't mind the reveal of them being Shield Agents; because it just highlights how much of the Friendly Neighborhood Spider-man comes from the teachings of ordinary people like Ben and May.
That really works as a good contrast and if they weren’t robots and actually peters parents, they could’ve had peters dad gradually change his view about with witnessing what his son accomplish as Spider-Man and how he does it, not a complete change but not as strict to one view.
It's one of the reasons that I like the Spiderverse/Playstation spiderman stories. Peter finally gets to see that there are always good people who will continue the fight, and tries to instill the same values on, in this case Miles
cia not shield
@@maxlong495 I think they where CIA first, and that got retconned into Shield. As it goes in comics.
16:08 - I remember reading in one of the Spider-man novels that Peter is always breaking the same ribs on one side because he never stops to let them fully heal before he goes back to fighting crime.
Ever since, that throwaway line has really coloured how I see Peter as a character. Fighting superhuman enemies with broken bones isn't a sign of heroic grit. It's a sign of a potentially fatal obsession with "saving" people.
It does make sense for some of Peter’s actions.
"This world is full of men and women who have the courage to listen to their hearts and who believe in doing what's right."
Peter, you didn't follow your own advice when you made a deal with Satan to trade your marriage with MJ for Aunt May's life.
Of course not. Joe Quesada and JMS wouldn't allow it.
One More Day isn't canon.
@@BigGainer98
Doesn't matter. It still happened, and the people who made it happen were allowed to work on Spider-Man books in the aftermath.
Took me this long to realize Garfield’s last name would be Arbuckle.
Carnage is a pretty good example of Chaotic Evil.
Edit: they defeated the villains with a Care Bear stare?
"Taste the rainbow, motherf**ah!"
Carnage isn't a Nihilist or an Anarchist, he wants absolute freedom for himself, but everyone else to be subject to his whims. The man is a Libertarian.
Exactly think of how the Greek Gods act in Rick Riordan's Percy Jackson books "Rules are for Thee, Not for me"
I won't call him a Libertarian. He's more like a mad king, a gang leader, a warlord.
@@forge4119
Another one: Violent Hypocrite
@@daelen.cclark There we go.
Carnage sounds like a conservative 😳
Calvin ball feels like an especially apt metaphor, considering Calvin's philosophies and Carnage's of "bad stuff should happen to everyone but me" lines up pretty well.
At least Calvin is just a little boy. What's Carnage's excuse?
@@GeneralKenobi75oh quite simple really, Cletus Kassidy is a violent petulant man-child.
Gotta say, even after all these years Linkara's voice acting is still amazing, what with him creating distinct 'screeching insane' voices for Joker, Ultron, and now Carnage.
Not to mention Starscream.
The fact that their are canonically Wendigos in the Marvel Universe made me have to consider for a moment whether Linkara's joke about the doctor having one inside of her was also just a statement of fact.
Yeah... about that.
You know that this name is taboo because of its Native American origins right.
As in, it is the biggest example of cultural appropriation and used in vain as a generic monster despite its deepest meaning in Algonquin culture.
@@DrZuluGaming I do indeed and I'm glad that Linkara acknowledged that in his latest mistakes/missed opportunities video. Thank you for pointing that out though. Not everyone may be aware of it.
Part way in, and Peter's (fake) dad has an interesting point about the evil in people's hearts and what not. What I vehemently disagree with would be the conclusion that you fight fire with fire since you don't create goodness only by destroying evil. And I have always seen the view of being evil to fight evil to be self justifying and self defeating
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
US Government in a nutshell
THIS
@@Metrion77 a very good platitude, but not aplicable to most situations. like most platitudes.
in the end, it was possible for the heroes to win withouht killing. so they did. but imaging if this didn't turn into a bullshit micguffin fight? peter parker's dad wasn't wrong untill this turned into a bullshit mcguffin fight. i mean, its not like this is the last comic ever written, we know for a fact bothe the heroes ond villains have commited questionable acts after this.
Can I just say Linkara’s Carnage voice is INCREDIBLE? Hope that didn’t do damage to your throat
Agreed! If I did a Spider-Man series, I’d definitely cast him as Carnage!
Even when rewatching old episodes my brain just automatically inserts the “Atop the fourth waaaaaaaaaaall” into the theme song. You could say it’s like a Mandela effect thing where my mind thinks it was ALWAYS there
Same, I still sing "Brodski you're not the smartest, Liefield not an artist" even though that lyric has been gone more than a year now 🙃😅
...what do you mean? The opening "Welcome to Atop the Fourth Wall"? Because the singer DOES hold on the word "Wall" for about four times longer than every other syllable, that's... that's not Mandela effect
@@TARINunit9 no in the later part. where theres another singer singing it during the universe in flux part.
I personally see the body count as being very important to the story. We open the book with the impact that a death can have on people. We see the pain ONE death can bring, and now there's hundreds of deaths. It puts the concept of death into perspective, and puts context to the main conflict, do you kill one to save many? The brutality and meaninglessness of the slaughter is what makes the anti-hero argument carry such weight.
Or instead of murder for murder, how about a focus on the criminal Justice systems that would rather pass these criminals along to poorly secured horror houses masquerading as mental health facilities instead of giving proper sentences? (Proper mental health institutions, humane but secure prisons, capital punishment ONLY when absolutely necessary)
But of course, the villain is by necessity a recurring character, so they aren’t really gonna die or stop permanently no matter how many guns the antihero shoots, and don’t get me started on how the criminal Justice systems of these universes are never analyzed below the surface
@@Cdr2002 Indeed. It's the ol' argument of how clearly the choice isn't based on any real logic, but by the fact that they need to be around for stories to continue. Again, it's one of the aspects that keep Superhero comics hard to want to keep up with when there will never be any real impact to what happens, or it'll only be that way for a short time.
@@motherplayer Thank you, I really appreciate you getting this because trying to in discourse where in people in the thread are advocating for antiheroes can be extremely frustrating.
I totally see how frustrating following this stuff when there are factors like the villains always coming back can be. I don’t read comics as much as I used to, I mostly follow the adaptations and such these days, or try to write my own stories.
My recommendation to find comics where there feels like a real beginning and ending would be to experience specific runs in a vacuum or read alternate universes stories where it can end (preferably not the edgelord ones and instead something more positive like DC Bombshells and Mayday Parker’s adventures)
I hope that helps
@@Cdr2002 I totally agree. I would love to see a comic run that actually addresses the villains getting a death penalty. Like imagine a batman story, even a non-canon one, where the joker is sentenced to death but escapes from death row. Can Batman bring the joker back to the cops, knowing that they're going to execute him? Can he stand aside as joker is given a lethal injection, or the electric chair? Should he stop the anti-heroes from executing the joker themselves, considering he's already given the death penalty?
I'd pay good money for someone to just illustrate the scene of Joker in the chair as the executioner comes in. Joker sees Batman in the shadows of the room, and starts laughing at the thought that he's there to stop the execution and save his life like so many times before. But Batman doesn't move as the needle approaches and Joker realizes that Batman's not there to stop it. Batman's finally standing aside to let Joker die. And it's hilarious. Joker laughs and laughs as the next panel is Batman grimacing, then the outside of arkham. And then the laughter just... stops.
@@Metrion77 I’m honestly so sick of this discussion always coming back around to the Joker. Actually, I’m sick of the Joker. Period. Such a deeply overrated character.
But, if he’s dead and I don’t have to deal with him anymore, then sure.
“Curses can only be halted by their executors.”
“This iteration will be successful.”
“She has waited for four years.”
“Moloch’s Doomsayer continues it’s approach.”
Can’t wait for THESE cryptic messages to pay off!!
I'm sure its fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine. these are perfectly normal ominous warnings
Where are you seeing theses
@@GodzillaRex100 In the “EXTREEEEME!!” Segment.
Always check the EXTREEEEEEEME! segments. Those skits are usually to drop clues.
Love your break down on how we hear more negative stuff in media as opposed to good. A thing that I've begun saying in recent years is "Good outnumbers evil. Evil is just louder" Most good deeds or good people, in my experience at least, tend to not seek attention.
Which is a shame.
I remember playing Maximum Carnage on my Genesis as well and one thing that I really loved at the time was the way the different power-up characters had nods to the comic book, like how Cloak did nothing to Shriek or how Firestar wouldn't defeat anyone, just reduce them down to where one punch would take them out.
"Shriek decides to be a party pooper"
Every party need a pooper that's why they invited you. Party Poooooper....Party Poooooperrrrrr....
Carnage’s philosophy here reminds me of Blackbeard’s from One Piece. Everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want, as long as it serves him in the end
And Senator Armstrong. Which just goes to show how stupid his plan was since he wanted this to happen to all of America.
@@mikegates8993 What libertarianism does to a mf
That seems to be the mindset of a lot of people, come to think of it.
@@mikegates8993 At least Armstrong had the decency to not be a sore loser when Raiden killed him.
@@chrisossu2070 No, he just put the finishing touches on undoing Raiden's character arc from 4. That's much better.
For anyone who's curious, the story that's mentioned in this comic - that being the death of Harry Osborn - is part of a previous storyline written mostly by J.M Dematteis. It has unofficially been dubbed the "Harry Osborn saga" and it details Harry's descent into madness as he struggles between choosing to fully become the Green Goblin or choosing to move on and be a good man. It's a dark but very good and underrated Spider-Man story....and unfortunately it hasn't yet been collected in a convenient trade paperback. Still for those curious the individual issues run from Spectacular Spider-Man #178 - 184, #189 - 190 and the story concludes in #200 , and I recommend reading it, since it's an excellent run of Spidey comics and its Dematties at his best.
I will try to give it a read
Is it just me or is his Carnage voice is over the top, Insane, And yet freaking awesome.
Kinda reminds me of Carnage's voice from Spiderman the animated series
@@thatonea-hole Good point.
@@thatonea-hole Me too I'm surprised they did carnage so well despite the show being for kids
My throat hurts just listening to that; I hope he didn't try that in all one take!
40:53 “Curses can only be halted by their executors”
This iteration will be successful”
“She has waited for four years”
“Molach’s doomslayer continues its approach”
Edit: “this iteration will be successful”
Forgot to put the first quotation mark at the beginning of that quote.
Ok, so I got confused why Shriek wasn't a symbiote like Carnage and I assumed maybe she would be transformed partway through the story. Turns out I had her mixed up with the character Scream.
I had a friend who went into Venom: Let There Be Carnage thinking the exact same thing.
To be absolutely fair, they look really similar and a lot of Marvel characters have a weird repetitiveness to their designs. I think sometimes artists will all unconsciously follow similar trends for costumes until someone in editing finally points out that not every vigilante should have a plunging neckline or the same jacket
Shriek was a Symbiote infected Villain in the PS2/ Wii version of the Spider-Man 3 tie in videogame.
Can we just appreciate how good Linkara's Carnage voice is?
Akin to Starscream.
Very Dee Bradely Baker inspired
Pretty sure it's just a variation of his Starscream voice. Now I want to see him do a video on the comic adaptation of Transformers The Movie (Still think Galvatron blasted Starscream then because he saw being left for dead in space as the last straw BTW)
@@GatorRay That can't have done his vocal chords any favors.
@@gregorymelissinos337 So true.
Maximum Carnage is one of those stories that came together under really weird circumstances. I remember reading the Life of Reilly blogs back in the day and I remember reading that no one wanted to work on it. But it was just given to the Spider-Man team by the higher ups at Marvel at the time so they just had to make it work. To their credit, it's actually pretty good and still holds up in bits!
Super interesting info! Thanks!
I think the last number fight works. Because even if the metaphorical point of the villains was already proven wrong at the end of number 13, this story is still about the very personal conflict between Spidey, Venom and Carnage. Also, they are the 3 great figures representing the different ideologies coming to blows in the story.
It makes sense the whole thing ends with Spiderman's arguments kind of reaching Venom, because beyond putting Carnage on jail again, that I think it's the real victory on all of this.
it wasn't proven wrong, the end of 13 was a cop out
This honestly is one of my favorite episodes you have done and I want thank you again for changing your mind on doing this video and defending it. Though while yeah this isn't Eddie at his greatest, I do have to add to his protest that he is a good guy. It is a slow and constant climb but Eddie would eventually go from 90s anti-hero to conventional anti-hero to finally full on hero. Heck that bit at the end would end up paying off because Eddie now of days has stopped killing petty criminals and most super villains. He is one of the rare times redemption actually sticks in comics and to me, is part of what makes Venom such a great comic character. (Flash as well is great when he was Venom)
Favorite Spider-Man story being reviewed? Hell yeah!
Also, your impression of Carnage sounds like a deranged Starscream. It's amazing.
That's what it was! Good call!
@@genkaiba15 Thanks dude.
It's been 14 years in the making but here we go!! Also rip top 15 never reviewed list.... Probably time for a new one of those
Eh, he might as well not make one, since he can cover any good & bad comics of varying quality. What with Patreon requests and such!
@@thatonea-hole I mean, there’s sure to be more just straight up porn comics, and that’s so far been the only one he seriously hasn’t covered
@@gameb9oy Considering how many new porn comics he’s been sent? Yeah, that tracks.
@@FlutterGuy98 I'm pretty sure there are at least a dozen books he has gotten in PO unboxing that would fit the bill, some by some prolific comic writers and artists that, while good, would absolutely not fly on At4W
My favourite part is at 33:37 I love what he says because he makes such good points and it’s something that make Lewis so likeable as person.
My thoughts exactly.
12:33 the real explanation being the symbiote physically merging with his blood which allows it to reconstitute itself while in Cletus’ bloodstream. It was able to do this by entering his system through a cut in his arm.
Iirc, later on this basically resulted in Casady's body and the symbiote being one and the same.
“He’s saved by Cloak and Dagger heroes who tend to get lots of guest appearances but have had trouble holding their own series.”
(Me remembering their live action MCU tv series that had only 2 seasons and Power Rangers Dino Thunders’ Emma Lahana as Bridgid O’Reilly/Mayhem)
Yeah, Yeah that checks out.
This storyline is one that leaves me with all kinds of feelings. Carnage was truly a product of his time, a character so grim and gritty that all the "goody goods" tried to initially embrace their dark side to stop him before figuring out that the straight and narrow "goody goody" route WAS actually the right way to beat him. He was tough in his first appearance, but here he seemed borderline unstoppable... which makes the followup issue where he stalks his childhood friend at a logging factory, only to be tricked by the friend to ditch the symbiote and attack as Cletus (resulting in Cassidy being beaten by a single punch from Spidey) one of the biggest threat downgrades I have ever seen in a character. And Carnage never really recovered from that downgrade to "villain of the week" status. Yes, there is a point in the Clone Saga where the Carnage symbiote strikes out on its own and briefly bonds with Ben Reilly (and Spider Carnage proved to be so popular among fans he showed up as the final villain in the Spider-man animated TV show) but Carnage, to me, never seemed as powerful a villain as he was in "Maximum Carnage." Contrast that to the Green Goblin, who was the one to snap Spidey's sanity in "Lifetheft" and "Pursuit" (Harry, at least) was the mastermind behind the ENTIRE Clone Saga (Norman) and, post One More Day, seems to be the final boss in all of the multi year Spider-man sagas, with ONE exception- Doc Ock ended the "Big Time" era by switching bodies with Spidey and becoming the Superior Spider-man... and that story ended with Otto relinquishing Peter's body after the Green Goblin released an army of goblins to attack the city. And where was Carnage during the main storylines? Nowhere to be seen for over 200 issues UNTIL the Red Goblin storyline, where Norman Osborn and the Carnage symbiote bond, becoming Red Goblin, and that story only lasted TWO issues before Spidey found a way to beat him. Carnage has become irrelevant nowadays because his brand of evil just doesn't work in comics anymore. I can't remember the last time Carnage AS CARNAGE (Cletus and the Symbiote) was used in the main Spider-man stories. (I am aware of "Minimum Carnage," but that seems like a one shot side story.)
He did return as the main villain in the Absolute Carnage saga. Where he wanted to collect the codexs, so he can revive Knull to unleash chaos again.
Considering the continued overuse of the Joker, I would argue that Carnge's brand of evil absolutely does work. Marvel just seems to really not know how to use him as they have become fixated on the Green Gobin ever since the Rami movie.
I figured out a way that the "Good Vibes Cannon" could've had more setup before the climax. Instead of having the scene where Morbius went looking for more info on Shriek go nowhere, he could've found records indicating that someone at the place holding her sent out info packets about her abilities to multiple tech companies in the hopes that any of them could develop countermeasures to help them contain her and prevent a breakout. Even if he didn't learn what those abilities are, he could still find new leads on where to go for the information. And adding a panel where he asks Night Watch to follow up on those leads while he reunited with the others could replace some of the padding and give that character more plot relevance. It would also help to explain why he missed out on so much of the action.
'when you're the friendly neighborhood spiderman, arbitrary skepticism went out the window a long time ago.'
In my opinion I think it makes sense that cap is mostly willing to kill considering he is a ww2 vet and went through military training which prepares you to kill. But if the option appears I do think cap would take prisoners
My reading of cap; especially the MCU version is that he’s a one man SWAT team, the version that we should have which is there to deescalate and not resort to lethal unless absolutely necessary. I’m ok if Steve kills; but decapitating goons with his shield would be wildly out of character IMO.
@@qwellen7521 in Avengers 1 didn’t he throw one of the brainwashed SHIELD agents off the Helicarrier? And wasn’t Steve aware he was brainwashed? Or am I mixing it up with a Hydra agent in another film
Linkara my dude. I am 31 year old man but when you waxed lyrical about Cap's shield I giggled and had to rewind it once. Thank you.
I'm trying to figure out, with Linkara having done half of his "Never Review" list does that mean that comic quality has improved enough that the cesspool of bad comics is running low? Or are the new comics so bad that the old list of comics he'll never review actually look GOOD by comparison?
It varies.
-Maximum Carnage was Patreon-sponsored. People like to see me review specific things and they'll pay me to do them.
-Manga mostly Patreon-sponsored, but the other cases are franchise material that makes it unique enough for me to want to cover and can't really in any other form, like Pokémon or The Ring.
-Political satire I only finally let in Reagan's Raiders because of it being a Solson comic and how distant we are from the politics of the time.
-Motion comics/movies/cartoons mostly Patreon-sponsored for movies and cartoons, and motion comic was via the last remaining Silent Hill comic by that author.
-Webcomics - Patreon sponsored reviews again.
-One More Day - special occasion and I changed my mind about doing it.
-Sonic comics - immediately broke it for the 100th episode right afterwards, but it was more a case of "Stop expecting me to do some deep dive on the Archie Comics lore and anything particularly bad there because I'm not familiar with it and I don't care about it." And then a Patreon-sponsored review for another one.
Wow, a whole breakdown. Very nice!
...you know Batman #66 is going to be next now though, right? Like...I feel like the trolls have had torches handed to them. 😅 I look forward to the thesaurus you discover for every instance of the word "boner". I wish you luck.
@@genkaiba15 given he's talked about it on two occasions at length he's basically already done a review of it. Not really much else to say about since he did another comic from the same era that would have covered the general content on it.
@@genkaiba15 Well, the only real way is probably *with* a Patreon sponsored review. So... They're giving him money to do a thing he only didn't do before because he doesn't really care about it. I'd say that's a win.
@@genkaiba15 The problem with Batman #66 is that nothing would be as funny as Linkara saying "Boner. Boner Boner Boner. Boner Boning a Boner. Boner Boner. Erect Penis."
Genuinely, he could just release that clip remastered in HD and call it a day for Batman 66. Actually, that would be a pretty good April Fool's episode.
36:30
As soon as I saw that pose I thought 'what about his ribs'
Then linkara came in and I laughed out loud on a bus.
Whenever a UA-camr whips out a whiteboard you know you're in for a good time
I feel like we don't give enough credit to how good L's Carnage voice is.
It's clearly influenced by Scott Cleverdon's voice for Carnage in the 90s Spider-Man animated series.
People don't talk enough about Venom's disappearing and reappearing mullet. It's quite magical.
Love the video and Maximum Carnage!
Feel like this is a story that we today will more easily accessed. With all that bad things that is happening and the nihilism that is destroying the world we really need hope
Amen to that
40:53: The extreme foreshadowing might include the mysterious guy and the device from the Halloween storylines and Mirror Margaret waiting for her plan to prevail after four years.
I agree with this interpterion, and I call the mysterious being Copenhagen after Copenhagen interpterion, aka the many worlds interpretation
Glad to have you back, Linkara! Had me worried there for a while. Hope this was just due to the length of the episode and not due to something bad happening IRL.
Don't worry it was just the fact that the comic was about 14 issues long.
@@Pikachu2Ash Figured as much. This was a pretty long episode.
Hearing Linkara say It’s morbin Time has brought a tear of joy to my eye.
36:03
Spidey: "...I'm gonna treat you like devil!
I'm going to sell my marriage to all of you! ALL OF YOU!!!!"
Spidey: You get my marriage!! And you get my marriage!! You all get my marriage!!! I am the Oprah of my own marriage!!!!!
Always love those "EXTREEEEEEME" blink-and-you'll-miss-it storyline foreshadowing Easter eggs that often take years to actually pay off. :P
I've always wanted an Ultimate Alliance game based off the Carnage titles to be made.
Like one that takes you through Maximum, Family Fued, and USA.
Already one of my favourite episodes just because of the rant at the beginning
1:13 minutes in and I’m already laughing my ass off😂😂😂
With the inclusion of Carrion, I wonder if the writers might have been trying make Carnage’s team an allusion to the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Admittedly, I think that probably wouldn’t hold up as, while Carrion can obviously be assigned the role of Pestilence, the roles of the other three Horsemen Death, War and Famine would either be inapplicable or interchangeable; my best guesses being that Carnage would be Death (due to his fixation and motivations being closely tied to death) and Shriek possibly being War due to her role of spreading madness to the citizens of New York inciting them to violence and spreading further conflict.
Oh man at over an hour, this is gonna be a fun one.
First time I ever heard of this comic was way back in the caveman times of early AT4W and your Top 15 Comics I’ll Never Review List. Spider-Man TAS is where I first learned of Carnage and I thought was a really cool character with an awesome look and color scheme.
Amusingly Carnage himself seems to be kinda shunted off or forgotten. This was evident when I recently went to the Comic-Con Museum in San Diego, where the Spider-Man Beyond Amazing limited exhibit had an entire section dedicated to Venom, while Carnage got a small mention and showing.
Ironic since both Venom and Carnage were on even footing of popularity in the 90's!
Didn’t…absolute carnage JUST happen
@@TheNukaColaMan10
Well to be fair, *ALOT* of event comics happened in Marvel! Absolute Carnage was one of many!! So event fatigue was in full effect
Where did you get 2 hours from? it's 1:20:55.
For what it’s worth, I’m really glad you did the one more day review after all. That story really needed to be ripped into and I felt like you were the only one who could properly do it.
The 200th Episode is my Favourite AT4W Episode.
I find it so funny that this is as long as it is without leaving major repercussions on the universe while much bigger symbiote events like Absolute Carnage and King in Black impacted the Marvel universe in pretty much 5 issues. Thise are 2 I'd love to see you cover in the future
"Just you wait, people. At some point, AUNT MAY is gonna be revealed as some nefarious supervillain planning his downfall."
> Looks at Clone Saga.
... Close enough?
Looks at One More Day. Does that count?
Hey, the plunging neckline outfit was just the style at the time, you know? Not just for the women, either. Iron Fist's classic outfit is cut almost identically to Black Cat's lol. Morbius is lettin' it all hang out too.
On a more serious note, I agree about the idea that I think some heroes (not just antiheroes) killing in extreme circumstances is justified. it makes sense to me that, as a soldier, Captain America would be willing to kill if it came down to it. There's a few other scattered heroes like Wolverine and (in certain circumstances) Iron Fist that it makes sense for me as well. These characters would PREFER NOT TO, but will if they deem it necessary.
But other characters like Spider-man? Absolutely not. Most of Spider-man's appeal is his relatability. And most people, when it comes down to it, are not killers. Most people have to be pushed to the absolute brink to resort to lethal force, and it's a big part of modern military training that soldiers need to be pushed to take shots by reflex or a lot just can't bring themselves to pull the trigger.
The X-Men seemed to be exempt in general at that time. Most of the X-Women just wore skintight outfits. Heck, I don’t think PSYLOCKE had a costume with a plunging neckline back then.
@@L1701 well there's Emma, but she's special.
Now that is an opening. Gotta love review show continuity.
When he’s swinging about town, do you think bugs ever end up caught in those webs Spider-Man has under his armpits?
Of course they do. What do you think Spidey snacks?
I love how the feel-good gun incapacitated Carnage the same way as Plankton in the one beach episode of SpongeBob:
"I just can't handle that much kindness in one sitting! NEED... *HATRED...*"
Fill in you're own Adamantium Rage insane joke right here, Still better than feeling like we're in a bad comic book plot.
I liked your thoughts on the “good bomb,” they clarified my own. The real climax of the story was when the heroes defuse the mob not through violence, but through inspiration. It might have been better if they’d just ended the story shortly after that. Instead, Shriek declares she can overwrite people’s will to make them more violent. So the “good bomb” was an ass-pull, but so was Shriek’s “rage bomb” power. If you can use silly comic book science to extend the story, you can also use it to wrap things up.
I would have foreshadowed Shriek’s rage bomb power too by having her use it on a smaller scale. Show the riots building up. People are arguing more, cursing each other out more, shoving matches increase and as time goes on, things get more out-of-control, increasing the stakes.
the problem is defussing the mob was a cop out way of ending the debate about how to fight the villains.
I was kind of annoyed the anti-heroes weren't there the "Good Bomb" went off, which could have forced them to rethink their attitudes. Still it's only Morbius (and Nightwatch) who got really short-changed; Black Cat and Venom got to come back for the resolution (even if it required a fake ending). I like how in the end Venom chooses to save the guard, even though he was constantly prioritizing killing Carnage; it shows that he's more complex and how all the horrors he's seen are affecting--but in a good way, inspiring him to try to protect others even if it's just one person, because he's just sick of seeing Carnage kill people.
I have mixed feelings about Peter's declaration that Kassidy might be innocent. It's hard to say, on the one hand, Linkara's right; there are people who've been through awful crap who have chosen not to repeat the cycle of abuse. On the other hand, you have people like Shriek (or Richard) who's life-experiences have convinced them that the world is awful, and you have to look out for number one. But, back on the first hand, I have to wonder how much of that is Shriek being stubborn, perhaps unable to deal with the idea that her suffering might be an aberration instead of the norm, or how much is just her not wanting to admit she was wrong.
Carnage is similar to Joker, or at least how Joker should be written. Instead of trying to force people to accept his nihilism, he just does whatever he wants because if nothing matters, "why not?" becomes his default answer to everything. Ironically, this saga kind of reminds me of the recent "Joker War" story. Everything old is new again.
Which is why I love Carnage and Joker's back and forth during the Batman/Spider-Man crossover. They're basically the same character except one or two little details.
Chipping in to note that it took like 5 comics before Shriek was back in ASM, rejecting her turnaround in Maximum Carnage and playing a large role in Peter's emotional downfall.
@@Eron2828 Good gosh, the 90s.
Granted, that might just be a problem with the American superhero comic model in general: The Status Quo is God. Since, there's no end for characters, they keep falling back into the same flipping cycles again and again with no real development. Ughhhhhhh
The best part of this review was when Linkara said it’s morbin time and morbbed all over the page
P.S the guy that made that meme by accident is also a UA-camr named Rata Rank 10 Ygo that mostly does Yugioh videos he’s funny I recommend him
I feel like the only one I absolutely want to see within the lifetime of this channel is Archie Meets Punisher.
So in Spider-Man terms, the message of this story is "Be Greater". I really love stories about the best parts of humanity, especially after the past few years. I've been trying to read more comics lately, and I think this now one of my favorite Spider-Man stories!
Furthermore, who do I have to pay to get a gun that shoots ASMR beams? WE NEED THIS!
My thoughts exactly.
I feel that kinda message needs to be heard more often.
1:09:38 Don't know if this ever got a canon explanation (probably not), but my current headcanon after seeing this is that the "good bomb" would only work with Shriek's power set and it's not necessarily safe enough to use with someone else, even if they have similar abilities.
1:00:45 Carnage like a Evil Trelane in that panel. "I would've. I would've!"
honestly, I wonder why the beat-em-up hasn't been remade to make all of spider-man's crew playable characters. there are enough popular characters to pull in players, quite a few lesser known characters that players can be introduced to, a wide variety of villains for interesting and varied boss fights, and a story that lends itself really well to that style of game.
So that’s where the countdown beings laugh came from. Neat.
Right!? I was today years old when I finally learned this!
Your Carnage, Starscream & Linksano voices may be similar but even though they're similar, I love the voices you do. It makes me so happy to see your videos and seeing your video is an early birthday present. Thank you for making me happy & may your future be brighter than the sun.
Though the Carnage voice is more shrieky than the Starscream and Linksano voices. There's abit more of a loudness to it
@@thatonea-hole True but I still see the similarities and I love them so.
After so much pain murder and fighting I cried happy tears seeing Captain America. Great episode
I can't believe Weird Al Yankovic canonically exists in both the Marvel universe AND JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
I'd pay good money for a comic series where we dive into _The Yankoverse._
This one book has every trope of the 90s. The good ones and the bad ones.
Just like an action movie from 90's!
Take a shot for every suplex Linkara gives to "One more day."
My exposure to Maximum Carnage was kind of the opposite of what yours was. I saw the third issue at a comic convention and was fascinated by the art. I bought it and then realized it was part 3 of 14. I'd mentioned to my parents at some point that I wanted to see if I could get Maximum Carnage, and they got me the Genesis game for my birthday. :-D I later got the remainder of the series issue by issue, and even picked up the 3-part series "Carnage," which Maximum Carnage turned out to be a follow-up to. Good times.
Thank you very much for covering this - this was a real blast from the past. :)
Yeeeeeeeah. I remember this as the reason I focused more on the X-Men. I was a HUGE Cloak and Dagger fan. This broke my little teen heart.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
I was just thinking about it felt like its been a while since a new Atopthefourthwall. Seeing how long this episode is, I appreciate the work, and with this video Liked, already subscribed, and this comment made. I am hoping to link this to several friends to boost the algorithm. Thanks, linkara.