Vespa is more a self-supporting body, kind of like current cars that don't have a frame and a body, but a body that works as a frame... monocoque is a single piece chassis and body structure.. but yeah I thought the same hahah
@@setoain20 most modern cars are indeed monocoque, it's just that the term comes up most often when talking about carbon monocoques of super and hypercars. But it's now true of even the most humble little city car.
@@andypacmanperez Not really. Suzuki has the SV650 & Kawasaki have the H2's & Eliminator, but Honda & Yamaha don't have any in their current lineup. Ducati, who's entire lineup used to be practically all trellis, only has the XDiavel & Scrambler left. KTM seems to be the only brand left that's championing the trellis.
You fail to mention one of the most important parameters: Motorcycle stability. You mention rigidity but fail to distinguish between vertical stiffness, lateral stiffness and torsional stiffness. High vertical and lateral frame stiffness is almost always beneficial for stability. The optimum torsional frame stiffness depends on the mass distribution, rear swing arm stiffnesses, suspensions and tyres. It is difficult to design a monocoque frame with an optimal torsional stiffness and obtain high bending stiffnesses at the same time. It's usually easier to design good performing trellis, twin-spar or double-cradle frames.
To be fair to KTM, their rider won the MXGP. Although it's technically a Gas Gas that won, it's still a KTM in the end. And so does the MX2, which was won by Husqvarna... which is also a KTM.
I had a ZX-12 for a while and its actually not bad to work on. The engineers thought of what was needed to do normal service and accommodated that. I love the look of the trellis frame on my Bandit 400 and the monster aluminum spars on my FZR1000. My TDM850 has a rare, stamped steel twin spar and it's hard to tell (besides the welds) that it isn't alum.
I love these types of videos , good to know more about the motorcycle i ride so that i can appreciate all the engineering in it My Motorcycle has a deltabox frame
A true monocoque bike would be something like the vespa, there's no "frame" underneath the fairings, the fairings are the frame. The only sport bikes with a monocoque today are the motoE bikes made by ducati, not their street models.
Twin spar frames are good, but they are not monocoques in hsving a shell to distribute the load. Twin spars are good, but I like my early generation GSXR, which is a double cradle with rectangular pipes, kinda of like a missing link in development to the twin spar.
Hmm, I can't see the twin spar being good for offroad riding. Most serious offroad bikes have some form of a cradle frame. The KTM 690 enduro uses a trellis frame, which is interesting, but I wouldn't say the twin spar would be the best frame when you take a bike off the blacktop regularly.
Another very good example of trellis frame is the RE interceptor/continental 650. Very good frame as it was developed by Harris performance (which RE bought during development)
@In-Marty-We-Trust looking into it, I think you're right, it's just tubular... Wtf. (funny enough, if you Google Interceptor 650 frame or Interceptor 650 chassis, it shows you a picture of a Kawasaki W800 frame for some reason) I could've sworn it was a trellis frame as I read about it before, but it seems like their only trellis frame is the new Himalayan 450.
Nice refreshing topic I did not really thought about. Thanks for your nice researched Video 🏍. I recently switched to a Aprilia RSV Mille RP and was astonished about the frame quality (perimeter frame). Unfortunately new "low cost" bikes does not focus on this anymore, at least from my angle
What is the advantage MV Agusta sees in their hybrid frame, where the swing-arm pivot is an aluminium plate and the rest of the chassis is trellis? Recently, the Kawasaki-Bimota WSBK bike also has a similar chassis setup.
If I am not wrong old Hornet 600 had a backbone frame as well, not only a lighter brother. Used to have one, it flexes a lot I can tell after more sporty bike with a different frame
Great video! Would you consider going into the positives and negatives of stressed members engines, vs conventional approach? Why are they used, in what cases, and which bikes are most well known for having engines as stressed members?
@chaos I want to ride from job to cpt in December, can u make a video about how to prep. Also about the best bikes. I’m 19 and have a Ktm duke so the more hooligan bike for the trip the better
The most common frame in the world has been left out: the underbone. The Honda Supercub is the most common motorcycle in the world and it is an underbone.
I have a trellis frame in one Ducati, and the more modern hybrid-style frame in another Ducati. However, the majority of the bikes that I owned had twin spar frames.
i own 2012 CBR150r, it uses Twin Spar frame and it feels heavy, Rigid, and planted at 120Kph or more, and CBR150r frame feels way more rigid compared to it's rival that uses the same frame which is Yamaha R15. but the newer CBR150r and GSX150r that use Trellis frame feels more agile and lighter to corner but a feels bit floaty when you go faster than 120Kph especially for light rider like me that weight only 55KG when i tested those bike.. for me, i prefer my CBR150r since it feels rigid and heavy, and the Twin Spar frame make it look big and less hollow even with small pony engine LOL. and it's quite comfy for long ride too! :D
When you showed the backbone frame I looked at a pic of my Honda Hornet 250 and thought "oh that's what I have" right before you cut to a picture of the Honda Hornet 250 😆
I think my 690 SMCR has a trellis. It's due for a valve check this winter and it looks like its easy to get at the valve cover. Not sure about my NC750X. It uses tubular steel in any case and it seems a bit flexy but it's not the kind of bike you ride hard so that's just fine. My K1600GT has a big boxy aluminum frame of some sort and for a bike that's so heavy, the handling is fairly taut.
The *entire* triumph line up, INCLUDING the daytona 750, 900, 1000, and 1200, the tiger, speed triple, sprint, and all the rest used a very thick backbone frame. If engineered correctly, they can be just as stiff as other styles.
yeah people really dont really know about frame this a good video to understanding more whenever need to choose a bike..i got suzuki rider r150 fu which a beginner bike and come with twin spar chasis yeah the design of suzuki was unique and not everyone like it..but its got good handling and relatively cheap compare to yamaha and honda 150cc moped...
How’d KTM win over triumph’s rocket 3 storm r is beyond me Also interestingly my bikes throughout the years are as follows: Cbr250r - twin spar (first bike, gone) Tnt 135 - trellis (in garage) Sportster S - trellis (traded in for Pan Am Special) Pan America Special - i have no idea(in garage) Superduke 1290 R EVO - trellis (totalled rip) Z H2 SE - trellis (in garage) R6 - i’m not sure either, it’s an 06 (in garage track bike) 690 enduro r - tubular? ( in garage, off road)
The steel frame rusting is a bit over the top, in fact a steel frame will last a lot longer than aluminium frames. Aluminium frames often suffer from galvanic corrosion between steel bolts (especially motor mounts and swing arm pivot), threads are much much weaker and they are far more likely to break in case of a crash (especially motor mounts and subframe mounts). Otherwise a nice video. Would have liked a small mention of the aluminium/steel hybrid frames the Italians use though (MV Agusta, Benelli, Bimota, etc.).
Do you have Royal Enfield Himalayan 450 at South Africa if yes make a review 🙂 Here in india thats the only one comfortable 450cc ADV KTM Adv suspension is stiff but the 450 has softer so if it possible to take a test ride please consider to try it
Then there is the legendary Britten V1000 with no frame at all, everything is just basically bolted to the engine. If you are unfamiliar with it's story a Kiwi built it in his shed and in the early '90s it ran rings around Ducati's works superbikes.
my bike has a steel trellis diamond frame... I imagine they will actually be the most common due to modularity and despite being harder to manufacture they are making lighter bikes which means you need less beef in your engine which makes lighter bikes... so kind of win-win imo...
Is using aluminum just for weight or is there another reason I know that many companies use aluminum swingarm to aid with handling even ktm does that. Wondering if there is something that makes aluminum chassis so good for sportbikes
could one theoretically make a motorcycle where the fairings themselves are a monocoque frame and air box fluids ect are inside that but the engine is then lifted into the fairing frame. quite literally like a car.
5:02 that's the biggest lie, you can barely remove the sparkplugs at the edges of the head due to the low clearance between the frame and head of the engine
just to clarify, perimeter frames are nothing new, it's just about the form of the frame and can be steel box sections like on the FJ1200. they don't have to be fancy forms of aluminium :)
none will "dominate" because of COST vs EFFECTIVENESS the 'best' frames are the Monocoque and Trellis but these are also the most expensive frames to produce so will see way more Twin Spar and Double Cradle because both are relatively cheep to produce and avre very effective frames
So what is a diamond type frame called technically? 🤔 It is normally used in sub 400cc bikes in Asian countries for naked sports commuter bike or budget sports bike or roadsters too.
Vespa - The best example of a monococque
😂😂😂
Vespa is more a self-supporting body, kind of like current cars that don't have a frame and a body, but a body that works as a frame... monocoque is a single piece chassis and body structure.. but yeah I thought the same hahah
@@setoain20 most modern cars are indeed monocoque, it's just that the term comes up most often when talking about carbon monocoques of super and hypercars. But it's now true of even the most humble little city car.
@@setoain20so uni-body? Like a Camaro?
Yeah the old two stroke's one we're monocoque body frame but the new one use double cradle i guess
In my garage at the moment:
2023 Husqvarna Svartpilen 401 - Trellis
2019 KTM Duke 200 - Trellis
2008 Aprilia Shiver 750 - Trellis
1993 Suzuki GSF250 Bandit - Trellis
My 2 previous bikes:
2006 Kawasaki ER-6F - Trellis (sort of)
1984 Ducati 600 SL Pantah - Trellis
I guess I have a "Type".
Hmmmm i think we know 🤔
I think trellis is just more common on the market these days in general
@@andypacmanperez Not really. Suzuki has the SV650 & Kawasaki have the H2's & Eliminator, but Honda & Yamaha don't have any in their current lineup. Ducati, who's entire lineup used to be practically all trellis, only has the XDiavel & Scrambler left. KTM seems to be the only brand left that's championing the trellis.
should have bought a vitpilen
Changed from VTR250 to Husqie 401 (Vit). From trellis to trellis. o/
My bike is on a Picture Frame because my wife doesn't want me to ride motorcycles anymore after suffering a nasty crash 😅😅
time for a new wife
You fail to mention one of the most important parameters: Motorcycle stability. You mention rigidity but fail to distinguish between vertical stiffness, lateral stiffness and torsional stiffness. High vertical and lateral frame stiffness is almost always beneficial for stability. The optimum torsional frame stiffness depends on the mass distribution, rear swing arm stiffnesses, suspensions and tyres. It is difficult to design a monocoque frame with an optimal torsional stiffness and obtain high bending stiffnesses at the same time. It's usually easier to design good performing trellis, twin-spar or double-cradle frames.
0:15 That roast on KTM tho 😂😂😂😂
Really?
To be fair to KTM, their rider won the MXGP. Although it's technically a Gas Gas that won, it's still a KTM in the end. And so does the MX2, which was won by Husqvarna... which is also a KTM.
Roast?
I had a ZX-12 for a while and its actually not bad to work on. The engineers thought of what was needed to do normal service and accommodated that. I love the look of the trellis frame on my Bandit 400 and the monster aluminum spars on my FZR1000. My TDM850 has a rare, stamped steel twin spar and it's hard to tell (besides the welds) that it isn't alum.
I love these types of videos , good to know more about the motorcycle i ride so that i can appreciate all the engineering in it
My Motorcycle has a deltabox frame
you wouldnt happen to own a fzr would you?
@fire-ue3du Nope , Yamaha R15 V3
Very cool video indeed. Really cool to see all the different type of frames. Again, great job!!!!!
Great morning everyone!
Why great morning?
Because it's Sunday Funday when all the moto channels upload.
I'm about to ride out to the local flea market. Don't forget to get out and ride today!
Excelent video !! Wish it was longer, it ended too soon, keep up the good work with the channel, love the content like this 💪💪💪
POPCORN❌ NOTEBOOK ,PEN✅
Goat comment
🎉
Twin spar is the best frame for almost everything, monocoque is more like a variation of twinspar
I think twin spar is a variation of monocoque . The idea is the same. Force being divided
A true monocoque bike would be something like the vespa, there's no "frame" underneath the fairings, the fairings are the frame.
The only sport bikes with a monocoque today are the motoE bikes made by ducati, not their street models.
Twin spar frames are good, but they are not monocoques in hsving a shell to distribute the load.
Twin spars are good, but I like my early generation GSXR, which is a double cradle with rectangular pipes, kinda of like a missing link in development to the twin spar.
@@jkim6200 there is a reason why they don't use it
Hmm, I can't see the twin spar being good for offroad riding. Most serious offroad bikes have some form of a cradle frame. The KTM 690 enduro uses a trellis frame, which is interesting, but I wouldn't say the twin spar would be the best frame when you take a bike off the blacktop regularly.
Another very good example of trellis frame is the RE interceptor/continental 650. Very good frame as it was developed by Harris performance (which RE bought during development)
They’re a much simpler double cradle.
@In-Marty-We-Trust looking into it, I think you're right, it's just tubular... Wtf.
(funny enough, if you Google Interceptor 650 frame or Interceptor 650 chassis, it shows you a picture of a Kawasaki W800 frame for some reason)
I could've sworn it was a trellis frame as I read about it before, but it seems like their only trellis frame is the new Himalayan 450.
Nice refreshing topic I did not really thought about. Thanks for your nice researched Video 🏍. I recently switched to a Aprilia RSV Mille RP and was astonished about the frame quality (perimeter frame). Unfortunately new "low cost" bikes does not focus on this anymore, at least from my angle
Twin spar Triumph Speed twin 1200!
Heavier than a sport bike,but lighter than a cruiser or adv. Rides well enough to keep up with everyone!
This is a really well written and produced vid, i would recommend working on bringing the audio recording up a bit.
The Honda ct70 and 110 and the best example of a monocoque frame
No, bro, those are underbone bikes, a derivation of the backbone layout
@ ok why you double space
I'm so happy, I met this man at Freestyle Kings today!!!
Awesome to meet you!
Damn such a great video. A successful bike has to be a engineering marvel and stand test of customer scrutiny.
For 98% of us (not racing), Trellis all day. It's such a looker and easy to work on.
"Trellis frame looks good in orange"... true that
Triumph calls the frame in my TS660 a "Steel Perimeter" frame apparently. So kind of like a cross between a backbone and a trellis
Right on time!
What is the advantage MV Agusta sees in their hybrid frame, where the swing-arm pivot is an aluminium plate and the rest of the chassis is trellis? Recently, the Kawasaki-Bimota WSBK bike also has a similar chassis setup.
If I am not wrong old Hornet 600 had a backbone frame as well, not only a lighter brother. Used to have one, it flexes a lot I can tell after more sporty bike with a different frame
wow, such a unique topic. loved the info sirrr
0:13 I swear nobody could actually pronounce his last name not even himself 😭
Great video! Would you consider going into the positives and negatives of stressed members engines, vs conventional approach? Why are they used, in what cases, and which bikes are most well known for having engines as stressed members?
Thanks dude. Good info.
needed this❤
@chaos I want to ride from job to cpt in December, can u make a video about how to prep. Also about the best bikes. I’m 19 and have a Ktm duke so the more hooligan bike for the trip the better
Could you please explain many different variations of frames, like the Deltabox frame?
I ride a 2018 RSV4 RF LE.
I got her because of her frame.
Same thing for human girls too.
The most common frame in the world has been left out: the underbone. The Honda Supercub is the most common motorcycle in the world and it is an underbone.
Single/double cradle frames providing flex to the frame can be a benefit to offroaders. They fall a lot and bend but don't break easily.
My VFR1200F apparently has a Double Beam Cast Aluminium Vacuum Mold frame.
Probably a variation on the Twin Spar frame.
I wonder if a dirt bike with any other frame would be beneficial in some way
Please, make a video about unusual frames!
Like the ones with a mix of steel trellis and alluminum plate
1:39 my bike!!
Good bike I'd say
Is it sp 125
Mine too. Its name SP125 in indian subcontinent.
i have a 990 smt with trellis and a zx12r with monocoque an you are right it is a paaaain to work on xD
I have a trellis frame in one Ducati, and the more modern hybrid-style frame in another Ducati.
However, the majority of the bikes that I owned had twin spar frames.
i own 2012 CBR150r, it uses Twin Spar frame and it feels heavy, Rigid, and planted at 120Kph or more, and CBR150r frame feels way more rigid compared to it's rival that uses the same frame which is Yamaha R15. but the newer CBR150r and GSX150r that use Trellis frame feels more agile and lighter to corner but a feels bit floaty when you go faster than 120Kph especially for light rider like me that weight only 55KG when i tested those bike..
for me, i prefer my CBR150r since it feels rigid and heavy, and the Twin Spar frame make it look big and less hollow even with small pony engine LOL. and it's quite comfy for long ride too! :D
When you showed the backbone frame I looked at a pic of my Honda Hornet 250 and thought "oh that's what I have" right before you cut to a picture of the Honda Hornet 250 😆
I think my 690 SMCR has a trellis. It's due for a valve check this winter and it looks like its easy to get at the valve cover. Not sure about my NC750X. It uses tubular steel in any case and it seems a bit flexy but it's not the kind of bike you ride hard so that's just fine. My K1600GT has a big boxy aluminum frame of some sort and for a bike that's so heavy, the handling is fairly taut.
Yamaha's "Deltabox" categories into which of these frame-types ??
Asking since I loved the handling of Yamaha YZF R15S (India version).
Although back bone frames are quite common outside of the US just for FYI
LMAO Backbone frame example is literally from my bike, cb600f, I’m turning it into a cafe rn
The *entire* triumph line up, INCLUDING the daytona 750, 900, 1000, and 1200, the tiger, speed triple, sprint, and all the rest used a very thick backbone frame. If engineered correctly, they can be just as stiff as other styles.
from 1990-1996*
I guess backbone frame is the ideal solution for a "cheap, low HP bike", like the Honda CB1000R :(
That was a cb250r. Listen to his words. Same engine as a rebel 250 which has no power
@@jvillain9946 Listen to my words: I have a CB1000R and it really has that stupid cheap frame
My 1000sx has a backbone frame
What about the frames you find in Indian 100cc bikes, eg splendor.
Great video, it’s not steel, chrome moly, what happened to the CBR?
Chrome-molybdenum steel, it's still a type of steel, being it a alloy steel as opposed to plain carbon steel.
Thank you
My 1390 R Evo is in my living Room waiting agian for warmer times :D
yeah people really dont really know about frame this a good video to understanding more whenever need to choose a bike..i got suzuki rider r150 fu which a beginner bike and come with twin spar chasis yeah the design of suzuki was unique and not everyone like it..but its got good handling and relatively cheap compare to yamaha and honda 150cc moped...
Thank you for your great video
What about the Diamond frame? My XADV has one.
What would you call the frame on a victory vision?
What about the EBR’s in-frame fuel tank ?
I have a Twin Spar-2024 Street Triple RS
Omega frame is very interesting also, but less common. Used a lot by Bimota
is Underbone and Backbone similar?
Because here in Philippines, we call small cc bikes ,Underbone.
What about Suzuki GS500? 🤔🤔 It's a Twin Spar double cradle frame?
How’d KTM win over triumph’s rocket 3 storm r is beyond me
Also interestingly my bikes throughout the years are as follows:
Cbr250r - twin spar (first bike, gone)
Tnt 135 - trellis (in garage)
Sportster S - trellis (traded in for Pan Am Special)
Pan America Special - i have no idea(in garage)
Superduke 1290 R EVO - trellis (totalled rip)
Z H2 SE - trellis (in garage)
R6 - i’m not sure either, it’s an 06 (in garage track bike)
690 enduro r - tubular? ( in garage, off road)
Rip superduke😢
Are vespa's monocoque frame bikes?
nice video, is there a reason why you schoud prefer one above the other, that is the question
I have a buell with twin spar that doubles as the fuel tank.
what is Hybrid spine/perimeter frame?
The steel frame rusting is a bit over the top, in fact a steel frame will last a lot longer than aluminium frames. Aluminium frames often suffer from galvanic corrosion between steel bolts (especially motor mounts and swing arm pivot), threads are much much weaker and they are far more likely to break in case of a crash (especially motor mounts and subframe mounts).
Otherwise a nice video. Would have liked a small mention of the aluminium/steel hybrid frames the Italians use though (MV Agusta, Benelli, Bimota, etc.).
Do you have Royal Enfield Himalayan 450 at South Africa if yes make a review 🙂
Here in india thats the only one comfortable 450cc ADV
KTM Adv suspension is stiff but the 450 has softer so if it possible to take a test ride please consider to try it
It's getting cold here in Germany and your videos keep my Bike infected brain under Control XD
Thank you for that🫶🏽
What frame type is a steel diamond?
My CF Moto 300NK uses trellis frame (guess due to coworking with KTM).
Twin spar in aprilia rs457 makes the bike a bench mark in its class. Excellent handling…
So the cradle frame is also the underbone?
Then there is the legendary Britten V1000 with no frame at all, everything is just basically bolted to the engine.
If you are unfamiliar with it's story a Kiwi built it in his shed and in the early '90s it ran rings around Ducati's works superbikes.
my bike has a steel trellis diamond frame... I imagine they will actually be the most common due to modularity and despite being harder to manufacture they are making lighter bikes which means you need less beef in your engine which makes lighter bikes... so kind of win-win imo...
Is using aluminum just for weight or is there another reason
I know that many companies use aluminum swingarm to aid with handling even ktm does that. Wondering if there is something that makes aluminum chassis so good for sportbikes
My 12 zx10r twin spar my dads 24 gsxs1000gt also twin spar
Most common backbone frame is CB600F Hornet which isn't cheap or low power at all.
exactly what came into my mind, although you might consider the hornet cheap but for sure not underpowered
It turns out you can call a single-cradle frame a bicycle frame!
I never changed any parts of my honda in 7 years
What is deltabox
What about the Kawasaki ZH2 Trellis?
could one theoretically make a motorcycle where the fairings themselves are a monocoque frame and air box fluids ect are inside that but the engine is then lifted into the fairing frame. quite literally like a car.
5:02 that's the biggest lie, you can barely remove the sparkplugs at the edges of the head due to the low clearance between the frame and head of the engine
Hahah accessible doesn't always mean easy.
Spark plugs are still a nightmare!
Can someone explain mine: Hybrid spine/perimeter, tubular steel, bolt-on rear subframe.
Mine has a twin spar frame (Aprilia RS457) After watching this video, I feel proud to have twin spar on my motorcycle.
my bikes - 2023 Harley Softail Low Rider S, 1984 BMW R100RS. Both bikes use double cradle.
just to clarify, perimeter frames are nothing new, it's just about the form of the frame and can be steel box sections like on the FJ1200. they don't have to be fancy forms of aluminium :)
What is a diamond frame ?
You need to check the data. Riyak Enfield shown in the video uses backbone frame.
none will "dominate" because of COST vs EFFECTIVENESS the 'best' frames are the Monocoque and Trellis but these are also the most expensive frames to produce so will see way more Twin Spar and Double Cradle because both are relatively cheep to produce and avre very effective frames
mine is: "CF die-cast aluminum Deltabox frame" and I did not hear you saying it ;-)
What about Tubular Frame
Perimeter frame 🤌
So what is a diamond type frame called technically? 🤔 It is normally used in sub 400cc bikes in Asian countries for naked sports commuter bike or budget sports bike or roadsters too.
They're usually a type of cradle-frame
such a shame ducati iconic trellis frame is gone now
Weird my 200cc Chinese bike used trellis frame. I never knew Ducati used trellis frame lol
You forgot Underbones. Also Tubular for some freak bikes.
KTM Trellis frame is perfect.
Damn i never knew ducati used trellis frame before. My 200cc chinese sport bike used trellis frame lol