Great interview Vaf! Not to bore you, but back in the day when I was the lead person on Renewable Energy for USDA OIG, the path was ethanol, cellulosic ethanol, and then hydrogen. In the end, which no one sees, is to forget gas, gas/ethanol, EVs, hydrogen (although the best of those), it is gravity that will power us into the future and all our machines. We just need another Einstein or Tesla to figure it out. B
If the market should decide what to buy and these have been out since before the EV1 and Prius, why didn't the market select this technology? It has the exact same Federal incentives as BEV and PHEV?
@@VAFZoneHe pointed out hydrogen cars have the same rebates. And they’ve been out since before the mandates were even proposed. And yet the market is refusing them. Your agreement is confusing as your agreement invalidates your video. Millions of battery electric vehicles are sold every year. Yet only several thousand hydrogen cars are on the road. Despite your assertion to the contrary, battery electric vehicles have massive infrastructure thanks to the power grid (about 90% of charging happens at home), and that’s actually a big part of why they outsell hydrogen cars in every country on Earth, even countries without mandates. There’s lots of electric infrastructure, there’s very little hydrogen infrastructure, and even if you can find hydrogen refilling it’s much more expensive than electricity. The hydrogen process itself (ironically) is very electricity-intensive, so there’s no path to hydrogen ever being as cheap as electricity. Hydrogen is forever the technology of the future, never the technology of the present. From everything I’ve seen, I’ll probably go to my grave with that still being true.
If you are not a fan of a battery-electric vehicles because the infrastructure is not there, DO NOT even look at this dumb car. We have so many problems with the Mirai in Los Angeles. The cost is enormous, $36 per kg gives you 300 miles for $180. Yes, 300 miles that's the real range on this vehicle. You say that it is very easy to set up a hydrogen station compared to electric chargers- do some research before you say something like that. You can't be more wrong. It cost 2 million dollars to set up small hydrogen station, plus it takes 3 years for permits to get, on top of that this equipment is so complex, that maintaining it costs a fortune.
If you watched my entire video, I mentioned the challenges of FCEV's: Infrastructure and COST of Hydrogen. Yes, way too high but, if FCEVs take off and Hydrogen production is greatly increased, the price will come down. The cost of Building a Hydrogen filling station is high (and the permitting process needs to be streamlined by the Gov't Bureaucrats for everything) but much cheaper that a >5 Megawatt highway charging station. At least we both agree that Internal Combustion Engines are the best solution now and in the future!
It's not new tech. Fuel cells have been around for ages, and not much improvement. Also it is still an EV, electricity is just produced in the car. It's a dead end. Norway tried, hard, but the stations kept blowing up. Now they have 25 percent EV's on the road and shown that if you build the infrastructure, it works, even in extreme cold.
Forget FCEVs/ BEVs. How about just making conventional ICE cars smaller? With today's tech & efficiencies combined with avg vehicle sizes and weight of the 80's/early 90's, that'll make much more of an impact to the environment
They are making gas engines smaller in Europe. A mercedes GLB has a 1500 cc engine in it, and that's a 6 seater. But it's mpg is worse than my 1996 vauxhall 1600. And this is true of many of these small engined large cars that are appearing. A step backwards.
@@Mikkel111 that’s the paradox we created; every successive generation of cars have gotten bigger & heavier, anything less puts you in danger on the road. Just like an NFL linebacker from 50 years ago may have been a better player and athlete but would not be able to physically survive a modern professional football match. So it’s a race to the bottom, ICE, EV, or whatnot, hopelessly getting larger and heavier than the previous model. We collectively created this endless mess that we can’t ever get out of.
@@dwnrange7812 Not really. There’s a popular car category in Europe called Micro, which is below Mini. Cars like the Toyota Aygo and the VW Up! are plentiful. It’s the US market that wants nothing to do with it.
Your comments about truck weight assume that all electric trucks will have large batteries. That’s likely false. Similarly to how we already have electric city buses without batteries, that are instead connected to the power grid, there are pilot projects to electrify highways for transport trucks. They may have only small battery packs for regen and for “last mile” after they leave the highway en route to their destination.
You suggest battery electric vehicles may need new battery packs, yet the truth is that modern electric vehicles have battery packs designed to last the life of the vehicle. Replacing a battery pack is akin to replacing the entire transmission in an internal combustion car… a possible thing, but very unlikely these days.
You asked him to compare the price of hydrogen filling vs. public charging. Since about 90% of EV charging happens inexpensively in people’s driveways, that’s an unfair comparison. Though he smartly declined to answer, given hydrogen filling is VERY expensive.
BEVs are not new as a concept but there has been huge innovation in battery technology. And they’re improving every day with new cell chemistry like improved LFP cells. You call modern ICE cars zero emissions? They still burn a lot of fuel that has be pumped up, transported, processed, transported again, pumped in and out of tanks many times before before it ends up in a car. There might be more particles and some gases filtered/avoided by modern cars but the super star of emission CO2 is not reduced at all. You praise that fuel has so high energy density. Yes, but you burn that stuff with around 20% efficiency. Most of that energy just warms the air around your car. It’s a total waste of this great natural resource. Hydrogen cars make no sense. The infrastructure is NOT the same as gas. Tanks are not created equal and hydrogen can escape through the smallest cracks. There‘re extreme temperatures and pressures involved. Those stations cost a lot. They built a couple of them in Europe and half already closed down. Also check the service schedule for those fuel cell cars. They need to be checked regularly for leaks, they have many expensive filters that need expensive service. Those cars are very complex and sold at a massive loss. The fuel itself is very expensive to produce. If you produce it with renewable energy, you‘re better off charging a BEV with that energy. And hydrogen is also used for the industry and perhaps international shipping, heavy machines in the future. There’re so many better applications for it than using it in passenger cars. BEVs are the future and they already work very well today for most driver profiles. I can’t charge at home but commute with my Tesla. I only need to charge once a week and do that while I shop my groceries. You can also charge while at the gym or eating out. It becomes absolutely natural. And I did trips around whole Europe with it without any issues. It’s actually very relaxed to stretch the legs every 3-4 hrs for 25minutes. I write some emails or watch a little bit of UA-cam. It’s a non issue unless you drive hundreds of miles every day for work and want to be home before dinner.
Too many inaccuracies for me to address here but, just a couple notes: I DID NOT say ICE vehicles are Zero Emission, please pay attention before you make such a statement. I said that they are PZEVs and 99% cleaner than ICE vehicles in the late 60's and early 70's. BEV's are also not Zero emission vehicles. Although they have no tailpipe emissions, there are remote emissions from the power plant, mining and transporting the rare earth materials for the batteries, etc. Your "Super Star" of emissions, CO2 is NOT a pollutant as you "Climate Change" zealots believe. CO2 is less than 1/2 of 1% of atmospheric gas and of that, a small percentage is cause by humans. CO2 is necessary for plant and human life.
You say it’s no more of a challenge to open hydrogen stations than charging stations. False. You can put a battery electric vehicle chargepoint on your home. I don’t think we’ll see hydrogen stations in people’s driveways, not in our lifetime at least.
You don’t like battery electric vehicles because the infrastructure isn’t there yet? But you also admit that you’ve only ever seen a few hydrogen stations in your entire your life. Meanwhile, battery electric vehicles have massive infrastructure thanks to the power grid. You can charge off a regular wall plug if need be (and that’s often sufficient recharging if it’s happening overnight, or all day at work).
Battery electric vehicles outsell hydrogen vehicles in every single country in the world. Even in countries without EV mandates. So I’d argue that the market already has decided. Millions of battery electric vehicles are sold every year. Only tens of thousands of hydrogen cars have ever been manufactured in the history of the world. And it’s not due to rebates, as most jurisdictions that have EV rebates also include hydrogen vehicles in those rebates. The market prefers battery electric over hydrogen.
I think it’s false that there is a rush to EVs due to mandates. EVs we’re growing in popularity before most of these mandates were a thing. Every year more and more people buy EVs, and most EV owners would only consider a plug-in vehicle for their next purchase. I think you have it backwards, it was the inevitable growth of EVs that gave governments the inspiration for the mandates. If they weren’t already growing inexorably more popular, the decision-makers wouldn’t have been bold enough to talk about mandates.
Your intro is based on the false premise that the market is currently deciding. That’s false. There are subsidies on oil and gas. That said, I’m all in favour of not incentivizing EVs if we also end all incentives on oil and gas (and on fuel cells, for that matter).
It doesn't feel like hydrogen will work. You have to use power to create hydrogen, then store hydrogen, then transport hydrogen, then create filling stations... that is a lot of work. In parallel, battery tech is getting better and better. It may be the case that some regions need power upgrades for charging, but that is not true for everywhere. Plenty of regions are fine and many home owners and farms, etc, can generate their own power.
This video will age like milk. Just take a look at how fast battery tech has improved over the past 5-10 years. Then estimate a similar trajectory in the coming 5-10 years. On the other hand, hydrogen has barely improved. Norway also tried investing heavily in Hydrogen car infrastructure, but they're all shutting down because it's not feasible. The stations require immense maintenance and the population of Norway prefer electric. Most houses in Europe are outfitted with 3 phase, so charging at home isn't a problem and people with shared parking are having chargers installed in the parking lots.
No they are not, the market will tell you in a very loud voice. BEV's and the infrastructure ie Electricity is already here. Hydrogen is no where to be seen. Every house has a Electrical outlet but no Hydrogen You need Electricity to make Hydrogen, just use the Electricity instead to propel a BEV, rather than the complicated and inefficient route to propelling a Hydrogen vehicle
No, the infrastructure for BEVs is NOT there. Yes, every "house" has electricity but for those not as lucky as you, who live in an apartment, they would have to rely on Expensive Public Charging stations and would have to sit and wait for their BEVs to charge every day or week. Also, if the percent of the fleet in the USA goes to 30%, 40% or more BEVs, the power generation capacity is insufficient to handle. Then every State would experience brown outs and black outs as in California. Not to mention the many problems for those who travel long distances on a regular basis and would have to seek out Charging stations and sit there while there vehicles are charging. BEVs are not desirable as a main vehicle and are only selling as they are now because of Government mandates and TAXPAYER subsidies.
@@VAFZone Depends on which country you are living in. Most Americans seem to be able drive anywhere with a BEV. In mY country, the UK there are plenty of rapid chargers and the roll out is impressive. I'm sure that when the motor car came along there werent gas stations on every street corner. I for one, have never had in over 6 years of driving EV's had serious problems charging, back in the early days you had to plan trip carefully, but nowadays the car does it for you, telling you were to charge and have the car ready for a charge when you get there. Tesla dont need long to charge, about 15 mins to 80%, just enough time to have a bathroom break, grab a bite to eat and drink before carrying on. The vast majority, over 90%, of EV drivers in the UK charge at home, overnight, just like your phone
@@VAFZone Because LED's have replaced light bulbs in the UK the grid has a16% surplus power, enough to power ever car if converted to EV's, why hasnt the USA made these improvements. The US is so backward, you seem to have enough cash to for munitions but when it comes to basic infrastructure, you seem to be a third world country, why is that ?
You do know that the tanks on the hydrogen car will need to be changed, and all the pipework for the hydrogen because hydrogen is very corrosive. Producing hydrogen from a cattle ranch will not produce muck hydrogen. You winn need to use electric to produce hydrogen to produce electric to power the car. Why not just cut out the middle man.
Interesting to hear about the hydrogen stations Toyota has built from NYC to Boston. I definitely want to know where that stands.
Good to know- nice looking car.
Great interview Vaf! Not to bore you, but back in the day when I was the lead person on Renewable Energy for USDA OIG, the path was ethanol, cellulosic ethanol, and then hydrogen. In the end, which no one sees, is to forget gas, gas/ethanol, EVs, hydrogen (although the best of those), it is gravity that will power us into the future and all our machines. We just need another Einstein or Tesla to figure it out. B
I love it Bruce!
If the market should decide what to buy and these have been out since before the EV1 and Prius, why didn't the market select this technology? It has the exact same Federal incentives as BEV and PHEV?
Exactly Dennis!
@@VAFZoneHe pointed out hydrogen cars have the same rebates. And they’ve been out since before the mandates were even proposed. And yet the market is refusing them. Your agreement is confusing as your agreement invalidates your video.
Millions of battery electric vehicles are sold every year. Yet only several thousand hydrogen cars are on the road. Despite your assertion to the contrary, battery electric vehicles have massive infrastructure thanks to the power grid (about 90% of charging happens at home), and that’s actually a big part of why they outsell hydrogen cars in every country on Earth, even countries without mandates. There’s lots of electric infrastructure, there’s very little hydrogen infrastructure, and even if you can find hydrogen refilling it’s much more expensive than electricity. The hydrogen process itself (ironically) is very electricity-intensive, so there’s no path to hydrogen ever being as cheap as electricity.
Hydrogen is forever the technology of the future, never the technology of the present. From everything I’ve seen, I’ll probably go to my grave with that still being true.
If you are not a fan of a battery-electric vehicles because the infrastructure is not there, DO NOT even look at this dumb car. We have so many problems with the Mirai in Los Angeles. The cost is enormous, $36 per kg gives you 300 miles for $180. Yes, 300 miles that's the real range on this vehicle.
You say that it is very easy to set up a hydrogen station compared to electric chargers- do some research before you say something like that. You can't be more wrong. It cost 2 million dollars to set up small hydrogen station, plus it takes 3 years for permits to get, on top of that this equipment is so complex, that maintaining it costs a fortune.
If you watched my entire video, I mentioned the challenges of FCEV's: Infrastructure and COST of Hydrogen. Yes, way too high but, if FCEVs take off and Hydrogen production is greatly increased, the price will come down. The cost of Building a Hydrogen filling station is high (and the permitting process needs to be streamlined by the Gov't Bureaucrats for everything) but much cheaper that a >5 Megawatt highway charging station. At least we both agree that Internal Combustion Engines are the best solution now and in the future!
It's not new tech. Fuel cells have been around for ages, and not much improvement.
Also it is still an EV, electricity is just produced in the car.
It's a dead end. Norway tried, hard, but the stations kept blowing up.
Now they have 25 percent EV's on the road and shown that if you build the infrastructure, it works, even in extreme cold.
All the electric car fanatics are having a heart attack….cry baby cry. Good job toyota
costs 60$ to fill up a mirai for 400 miles .
thats cheap .
ev's suck , they would be only good for micromobility , under 10kwh batteries
Forget FCEVs/ BEVs. How about just making conventional ICE cars smaller? With today's tech & efficiencies combined with avg vehicle sizes and weight of the 80's/early 90's, that'll make much more of an impact to the environment
People don't want small cars and the safety equipment compared to modern cars was basically non-existant in the 80s/90s.
They are making gas engines smaller in Europe. A mercedes GLB has a 1500 cc engine in it, and that's a 6 seater. But it's mpg is worse than my 1996 vauxhall 1600. And this is true of many of these small engined large cars that are appearing. A step backwards.
@@Mikkel111 that’s the paradox we created; every successive generation of cars have gotten bigger & heavier, anything less puts you in danger on the road. Just like an NFL linebacker from 50 years ago may have been a better player and athlete but would not be able to physically survive a modern professional football match. So it’s a race to the bottom, ICE, EV, or whatnot, hopelessly getting larger and heavier than the previous model. We collectively created this endless mess that we can’t ever get out of.
@@dwnrange7812 Not really. There’s a popular car category in Europe called Micro, which is below Mini. Cars like the Toyota Aygo and the VW Up! are plentiful.
It’s the US market that wants nothing to do with it.
But the U.S. market is where it matters the most
Your comments about truck weight assume that all electric trucks will have large batteries. That’s likely false. Similarly to how we already have electric city buses without batteries, that are instead connected to the power grid, there are pilot projects to electrify highways for transport trucks. They may have only small battery packs for regen and for “last mile” after they leave the highway en route to their destination.
You suggest battery electric vehicles may need new battery packs, yet the truth is that modern electric vehicles have battery packs designed to last the life of the vehicle. Replacing a battery pack is akin to replacing the entire transmission in an internal combustion car… a possible thing, but very unlikely these days.
You asked him to compare the price of hydrogen filling vs. public charging. Since about 90% of EV charging happens inexpensively in people’s driveways, that’s an unfair comparison. Though he smartly declined to answer, given hydrogen filling is VERY expensive.
BEVs are not new as a concept but there has been huge innovation in battery technology. And they’re improving every day with new cell chemistry like improved LFP cells.
You call modern ICE cars zero emissions? They still burn a lot of fuel that has be pumped up, transported, processed, transported again, pumped in and out of tanks many times before before it ends up in a car. There might be more particles and some gases filtered/avoided by modern cars but the super star of emission CO2 is not reduced at all.
You praise that fuel has so high energy density. Yes, but you burn that stuff with around 20% efficiency. Most of that energy just warms the air around your car. It’s a total waste of this great natural resource.
Hydrogen cars make no sense. The infrastructure is NOT the same as gas. Tanks are not created equal and hydrogen can escape through the smallest cracks. There‘re extreme temperatures and pressures involved. Those stations cost a lot. They built a couple of them in Europe and half already closed down.
Also check the service schedule for those fuel cell cars. They need to be checked regularly for leaks, they have many expensive filters that need expensive service. Those cars are very complex and sold at a massive loss.
The fuel itself is very expensive to produce. If you produce it with renewable energy, you‘re better off charging a BEV with that energy. And hydrogen is also used for the industry and perhaps international shipping, heavy machines in the future. There’re so many better applications for it than using it in passenger cars.
BEVs are the future and they already work very well today for most driver profiles.
I can’t charge at home but commute with my Tesla. I only need to charge once a week and do that while I shop my groceries. You can also charge while at the gym or eating out. It becomes absolutely natural.
And I did trips around whole Europe with it without any issues. It’s actually very relaxed to stretch the legs every 3-4 hrs for 25minutes. I write some emails or watch a little bit of UA-cam.
It’s a non issue unless you drive hundreds of miles every day for work and want to be home before dinner.
Too many inaccuracies for me to address here but, just a couple notes: I DID NOT say ICE vehicles are Zero Emission, please pay attention before you make such a statement. I said that they are PZEVs and 99% cleaner than ICE vehicles in the late 60's and early 70's. BEV's are also not Zero emission vehicles. Although they have no tailpipe emissions, there are remote emissions from the power plant, mining and transporting the rare earth materials for the batteries, etc. Your "Super Star" of emissions, CO2 is NOT a pollutant as you "Climate Change" zealots believe. CO2 is less than 1/2 of 1% of atmospheric gas and of that, a small percentage is cause by humans. CO2 is necessary for plant and human life.
You say it’s no more of a challenge to open hydrogen stations than charging stations. False. You can put a battery electric vehicle chargepoint on your home. I don’t think we’ll see hydrogen stations in people’s driveways, not in our lifetime at least.
You don’t like battery electric vehicles because the infrastructure isn’t there yet? But you also admit that you’ve only ever seen a few hydrogen stations in your entire your life. Meanwhile, battery electric vehicles have massive infrastructure thanks to the power grid. You can charge off a regular wall plug if need be (and that’s often sufficient recharging if it’s happening overnight, or all day at work).
Battery electric vehicles outsell hydrogen vehicles in every single country in the world. Even in countries without EV mandates. So I’d argue that the market already has decided. Millions of battery electric vehicles are sold every year. Only tens of thousands of hydrogen cars have ever been manufactured in the history of the world. And it’s not due to rebates, as most jurisdictions that have EV rebates also include hydrogen vehicles in those rebates. The market prefers battery electric over hydrogen.
I think it’s false that there is a rush to EVs due to mandates. EVs we’re growing in popularity before most of these mandates were a thing. Every year more and more people buy EVs, and most EV owners would only consider a plug-in vehicle for their next purchase. I think you have it backwards, it was the inevitable growth of EVs that gave governments the inspiration for the mandates. If they weren’t already growing inexorably more popular, the decision-makers wouldn’t have been bold enough to talk about mandates.
Your intro is based on the false premise that the market is currently deciding. That’s false. There are subsidies on oil and gas. That said, I’m all in favour of not incentivizing EVs if we also end all incentives on oil and gas (and on fuel cells, for that matter).
It doesn't feel like hydrogen will work. You have to use power to create hydrogen, then store hydrogen, then transport hydrogen, then create filling stations... that is a lot of work. In parallel, battery tech is getting better and better. It may be the case that some regions need power upgrades for charging, but that is not true for everywhere. Plenty of regions are fine and many home owners and farms, etc, can generate their own power.
What a stupid comment you just made. How does that not apply to electric
This video will age like milk.
Just take a look at how fast battery tech has improved over the past 5-10 years. Then estimate a similar trajectory in the coming 5-10 years.
On the other hand, hydrogen has barely improved. Norway also tried investing heavily in Hydrogen car infrastructure, but they're all shutting down because it's not feasible. The stations require immense maintenance and the population of Norway prefer electric. Most houses in Europe are outfitted with 3 phase, so charging at home isn't a problem and people with shared parking are having chargers installed in the parking lots.
No they are not, the market will tell you in a very loud voice.
BEV's and the infrastructure ie Electricity is already here.
Hydrogen is no where to be seen.
Every house has a Electrical outlet but no Hydrogen
You need Electricity to make Hydrogen, just use the Electricity instead to propel a BEV, rather than the complicated and inefficient route to propelling a Hydrogen vehicle
No, the infrastructure for BEVs is NOT there. Yes, every "house" has electricity but for those not as lucky as you, who live in an apartment, they would have to rely on Expensive Public Charging stations and would have to sit and wait for their BEVs to charge every day or week. Also, if the percent of the fleet in the USA goes to 30%, 40% or more BEVs, the power generation capacity is insufficient to handle. Then every State would experience brown outs and black outs as in California. Not to mention the many problems for those who travel long distances on a regular basis and would have to seek out Charging stations and sit there while there vehicles are charging. BEVs are not desirable as a main vehicle and are only selling as they are now because of Government mandates and TAXPAYER subsidies.
@@VAFZone Depends on which country you are living in. Most Americans seem to be able drive anywhere with a BEV. In mY country, the UK there are plenty of rapid chargers and the roll out is impressive.
I'm sure that when the motor car came along there werent gas stations on every street corner.
I for one, have never had in over 6 years of driving EV's had serious problems charging, back in the early days you had to plan trip carefully, but nowadays the car does it for you, telling you were to charge and have the car ready for a charge when you get there.
Tesla dont need long to charge, about 15 mins to 80%, just enough time to have a bathroom break, grab a bite to eat and drink before carrying on.
The vast majority, over 90%, of EV drivers in the UK charge at home, overnight, just like your phone
@@VAFZone Because LED's have replaced light bulbs in the UK the grid has a16% surplus power, enough to power ever car if converted to EV's, why hasnt the USA made these improvements.
The US is so backward, you seem to have enough cash to for munitions but when it comes to basic infrastructure, you seem to be a third world country, why is that ?
You do know that the tanks on the hydrogen car will need to be changed, and all the pipework for the hydrogen because hydrogen is very corrosive. Producing hydrogen from a cattle ranch will not produce muck hydrogen. You winn need to use electric to produce hydrogen to produce electric to power the car. Why not just cut out the middle man.
Delusional