When I was a poor college student my toyota had what was called an ignitor module that failed. $400 at the dealer. Was told no serviceable parts in the module. My neighbor who was a electrical engineer took it on as a challenge. Got it opened and found a bad $5 resistor on a PC board. He replaced it and saved me a bundle. These automakers don't want you to be able to fix cars anymore.
lol Cars use "black box" tech. The idea is quick/cheap assembly and making it possible for a mechanic to repair any vehicle. There are still a few specialist shops (mostly in Europe) that specialize in rebuilding electronics. Each usually focuses on a few dozen products they can repair. If your mechanic also had a degree in electronics, he could have repaired the fault. Of course then your $400 replacement might have run $2000. Ask your friend how long he spent locating the problem then multiply that by shop hourly rates.
I like Wizard's take on EV and gas. If a car is useful, or cool, or fun then I really don't care if you use gas, diesel, electricity or unicorn farts to power it. Getting all hot and bothered by what makes a car go is just a waste of time. Glad to see Wizard ain't falling into that trap.
Do you think we're pushing for EVs because they're cool or easy to use? How fucking regarded can you be. We're literally on the brink of mass extinction and this dude out here is like "oh yeah I'm cool with like whatever, I'm not a hater".
There may be very few places that are willing to repair a BCM but Electronics are electronics. As an electronics repair technician who owns his own medical repair business, I can tell you there’s nothing special about what’s inside of that box. It’s just a matter of finding somebody that has the skill and knowledge to do component level repair.
I have owned a 500e for 6 years. Driven it over 60K miles. It hasn't given me a any problems at all. It's a blast to drive too! I live in North Carolina and have never even seen another one here. If it ever dies I probably won't be able to find anywhere to get it repaired. I've gotten my money's worth out of it already but really hope to drive it for a long time to come! I enjoy watching your video and hope you get it repaired soon.
We have one of those Wizard. It's only 80 something miles. What that mileage on the dash shows you is the estimated range left at its current driving condition. It will constantly show near 100 miles when it was driven without the ac on and low speeds. Ac on and highway speeds brings that back down.
My experience totally the same. 90 miles is realistic. 128 on full charge assumes low speed, around town driving, which is what these are perfect and fun for.
Mr. Car Wizard, You are very wise and forward thinking. The future success of EVs will require universal components,parts availability, and understanding so independent shops can keep them going. I am looking forward to seeing how this project turns out. Cheers.
Universal components like cars have now. Everything else I agree with, and I think we'll start to see it in the next few years, but as long as manufacturers can get away with proprietary components they will. How long did it take to adopt USB C just for cell phones?
David, you're such a pleasure. Very balanced unbiased presentation of new tech. You avoid jumping to conclusions too early, and you give time to form an opinion. Keep it like that. You were the first showing me the inside of a battery.
those in the IT industry have seen paradigm shifts multiple times in our careers, the only constant is change. You have to keep up with change, and with over a million on the road in both the US and UK i applaud those wanting to keep ahead.
Yes, and many times things have gotten worse while costing more money, while it takes years for the tech to be fully realized as it was originally envisioned. I got off the early adopter bandwagon in tech pretty quick after getting burned a few times, and I sure won't be doing it for cars.
Wizard, I recently bought an 87 Chevrolet Celebrity wagon from the elderly, original owners. It’s in great shape, everything works, its entire service history is from a local Chevrolet dealer and it’s brown…everywhere. I love it and don’t even drive my 23 Escalade since I got Brown Betty. P.S. Hoovie, it’s NOT for sale.
I am from Bulgaria and I drive 2016 KIA SOUL @174000 KM , 2014 CHEVROLET VOLT @273 000 KM and Im quite happy. Have to say we have great minds here that can fix a lot of stuff
Yep and in many cases in the US we (as kids) rode our bikes. Or, heaven forbid WALKED. I still ride my bike at 76 years old to the grocery store, the bank, the DR's office, the dentist, and just for a nice ride in the mornings. Are furthest school is a whopping 1.5 miles and the kids wait for the school bus. I never see any walking or biking anymore.
Yeah a European woman I know was shocked I drive my six mile commute, rather than cycle. I prefer to take one third the time in dry, warm comfort rather than ending up a cold, wet sweaty mess that has to dodge traffic.
Well I take a bike for any one man trip under 10km (6mi) when it is not raining, not at night, and I don't have to carry big stuff like a week's groceries. However I do buy one bag of shop goods on a bike. This is in the US SE. I've always done that for 5 decades since I was 10. However cars are great dor distance, speed, passengers and cargo. A truly magical device in the history of humanity, that can be afforded by average commoners. This is only a 100 year benefit we get to enjoy in the long history of hard work.
The heart of the battery subsystem is the "BMS" or Battery Management System. They call theirs "Battery Control Module" but that is just industry naming games. The BMS' function is to monitor the battery health and charge as needed. Health is defined as State of Charge, ampacity, temperature, resistance, balance, voltage and current. Generally the BMS doesn't fail because it is really not stressed in operation. The inverter - the device that converts Battery DC voltage to AC voltage for the motor tends to get stressed and has large temperature swings. Note that batteries when accelerating and charging have peak amperage demands well beyond their normal specs. A battery pack rated for six amps may momentarily supply (or receive) 6 to 10 times that during these periods and because its a chemical process the temperature will rise dramatically and instantaneously well beyond the ability for the coolant system (if there is one) to mitigate. (The coolant will eventually pull this heat away but it will take tens of seconds or more. So that is the "curse" and the heart of most failures. When batteries super heat over multiple cycles they drift in capacity. And since you have a large number of cells they may not drift in unison. That differential is referred to out of balance and will throw warnings and eventually errors. Yes one bad cell can render a whole pack unusable. It may take 6 years to get there but that is the primary failure mode. And I said "one" bad cell. Well usually its one or more cells that have the worst cooling that go first. But what of all the not bad cells - they are perfectly fine. And that is why rebuilding with used "tested" cells is a valid solution. The key thing is once you pull that safety plug this is NOT a high voltage pack. Its a bunch of individual modules you can safely measure just as you would your standard car battery. You measure each cell one at a time (make a spreadsheet!) and determine who is the weakest link. If you see a small group that are more than 10% below the others - replace them all. Note that many home mechanics have taken these weak cells and recharged them separately and restored them to health. That is a gamble but can work. Its a lot of trouble to drop a pack so decide if the risk is worth it. The thing to understand is ALL THE CELLS are charged as one. So the weak cells never get special attention by the BMS. If they did, packs likely would last longer as drift (vs its neighbors) is really what throws the error. Anyway - any good mechanic can master this new skill set. Most auto tech classes do a poor job at training for electrical and specifically computer failures. But its all understandable. EV's are far far less complex that ICE. Its just unfamiliar. So you learn a little and make it boringly simple. And please - it should be crystal clear that Climate Change and Global Warming is real. We need this. Even an Exxon Mobil employee admitted to suppressing their climate findings from the 1980's. Can't go back; need to go forward. And it should be obvious as Teslas blow away Hellcats that there is no sacrifice EXCEPT range and charge times. And that is getting fixed. Tesla has open sourced their tech. That means any manufacturer can use it and drive the cost down while increasing the number of suppliers. Over 100 universities are working on new battery chemistries using common plentiful minerals. And all those batteries will be 100% recycled. So lower cost, longer range, faster charge times and a million mile car is coming. ICE and diesel specifically will still be around. They have unique benefits. So there will always be a market to service these. Note - I doubt its the BMS. More likely there is one or two weak cells. The pack can only charge to the level of the weakest cell because its en electrical series circuit. Locate that cell and swap it with a new or used one (they are available) and you are back in biz. This is what Hoovie did on his Prius. He did the whole pack but that likely wasn't necessary. Note that these cells are maybe 20V and 10 amps worst case usually much less. You can safely handle them and even charge them with a low cost RC hobby charger. And you can measure them with a generic DMM. Many Prius owners have removed the weak cells and run a full discharge/recharge loop on them 10 times or so and brought them back to virtually new. Charting their "recovery" tells you if they are worth keeping. If each discharge / charge cycle shows improvement over the last - you keep going. If each is worse than the last - chuck it and get a fresh module. Finally batteryuniversity.com has all the knowledge you need. Check it out. Great resource.
Well Done, Wizzard!! Says this EV owner who is old enow to be your GrandDad! A very good introduction and overview of the future of the EV. And brave you are, as an ICE mechanic, to take the education of an EV power train. And add to: there are many places, mostly Calif. and Colorado, that HAVE EV only shops, your gas car can pound sand. And; there is the first glimpse of standardization in the EV world; the "Tesla Charge Point", the GM EV platform being used in a Honda and more. This writer had DECADES of fixing 'forever breaking' I.C.E. cars. NO MORE, NEVER AGAIN! He now owns, drives and LOVES the EV ownership experience.
This looks so familiar :) It's just like a LIPO battery pack for an RC car. But huge! Thanks for this video, you are going through a familiar process of having to rebalance the pack. This is educational for a lot of people who seem to think that a broken EV has to be thrown away. The unified battery technology exists already, but it is a Chinese program that doesn't apply outside China. The solution is simple, Chinese cars like NIOs.
I helped with a major battery replacement on a vehicle once. It was older than yours, and the vehicle had a lot more miles on it. . And it was a lot bigger job. We replaced all 126 cells. And each cell weighed more than the entire Fiat. (The vehicle was the first submarine that I served on).
@@KevinSmith-ys3mh Actually, mine was nuclear. The diesel electrics had two batteries, each with a few more cells. At least, the WWII fleet sub that my first boat was named after did. I toured the WWII sub as a kid, then served on its nuclear namesake.
I leased one of these cute cars. Really good deal too .I can confirm that I can regularly get over 100 miles on a single charge. I live in LA and I suspected that it loves the stop and go traffic. I would also regularly take these to go to Palm Springs and San Diego with strategic stops in between to top off. It only had level two charging (No fast charge) and I was still able to make it work. I also had AAA membership with the 100 miles tow just in case, and never once did I use it in those three years despite coming close once or twice (like to the point that the car would no longer go more than 20 mph because it was running out of juice kind of close).
I live in Arizona and know people who own electric bicycles and other battery operated two-wheeled vehicles. The extreme heat from the pavement 150 degrees+ has an effect on the electric batteries in these bikes. This is why there are many people selling "used" electric bikes on Facebook. Extreme heat has a very bad effect on batteries. Electric bicycles have a very limit life compared to cooler parts of the country.
We have a holiday property in Spain which we use 3 months a year and need to replace the batteries on the EV Scooter every year when we return due to the heat.
@@speedybaby ICE are also cooled by air....all of them! The newer EV batteries are water cooled... then the coolant has the heat taken out of it by a radiator and a fan.... just like an water cooled ICE....
Bulgarians are not the only ones in the world to be able to repair this kind of stuff... as you said in the video, a new kind of garages are specializing in evs, here in France, a well reputed one is able to repair all sorts of battery problems like dead cells on model S, or baterry management system on Fisker Karma, etc, they are Revolte E-garage in Carquefou, France I am a fan of your work Wizard, thanks for sharing your experiences and extended knowledges in your videos thanks to Mrs Wizard too for all the work behind the scene !!
Exactly what I was thinking. Electronics are Electronics. There’s nothing special about it. I am electronics repair technician. I repair medical equipment. I run my own business. The challenge with some electronics are surface mount components that require a higher skill level and different equipment but again, Electronics are Electronics.
@@Bizija123 we'll see. BG is the only former USSR republic that was producing computers for all the others. Many companies have there their IT base because the tech culture there is very strong. I'm not Bulgarian (Italian actually) and I have been in Sofia many times and this year I explored all of it in 2 weeks vacation. They have their skills. And I hope you're wrong.
@@68404 Its very possible they have an online presence, but in their local online community. The global online community is a little harder to get onto.
I do want to say Thank you ! for saving this Fiat. I have always wanted one of these but knowing they were compliance cars their would be very little chance of finding anyone to work on their packs or parts for them. I had driven one of them when they were new- they are fun,fun little go carts!
My friend Audi E-tron with 20,000 miles. Died on the road, it gave him a 30-second warning before shut off. The front electric drive motor shorted out due to the cooling ports that were drilled into the motor assembly for cooling cracked and leaked coolant into the motor. $20,000 replacement cost. It was performed under warranty. He was not the only one who had this issue. The dealership had 6 other e-tron's with the same failure.
Modern german auto is crap all over the board. I would never buy one car from them, ICE or EV. Just look at what is on the roads: Less than 3 yo vehicles still under guarantee. After that they drop like flies. Even a cheap Chinese car does better than laggardcy German auto (who btw has been caught again using cheating devices to mask the pollution of their overengineered garbage engines).
As an EV driver and enthusiastic supporter of everything electric. I was really impressed with your balanced fair and knowledgeable presentation, been following your channel from the beginning and this video illustrates why you are a proper mechanic and not a technician as seems to be the norm these days. Keep up the good work informing us of the future of motoring.
I don't have a problem with EVs. I do think having taxpayers subsidize Teslas (and other expensive EVs) with a $7500 tax credit is unfair. CARB requirement that vechiles like this are sold is also states putting their finger on the EV / ICE scale.
@briangasser973 The whole EV trend is entirely artificial in nature. If the technology was there then the market would be driving the change. Government force is what is driving the change and that is the problem. You can't artificially force the change. Also none of the EV people are willing to accept that the batteries have to be manufactured and then you have to charge them using more resources than a regular ice car will. Just typical midwittery
Your comments are spot on Wizard, Evs are the future. The biggest problem has been that we should have begun the development of a network of chargers, better batteries ,training mechanics and making it possible to swap batteries over years ago. Governments and car companies have screwed up the implementation of the new tech, vested interests have stood in the way of the transition at every possible way for decades.
Do not try charge it without coolant in the battery pack. The coolant PTC heater turns on for a moment and without coolant overheat, short it will blow the fuse in the battery pack. Had to learn this the hard way.
Thats what I expected; though it maybe necessary to identify low voltage packs, and bring them up individually into the average acceptable range (safely at low charge rate), before turning control over to the onboard charger to do fine balanceing. Otherwise it may just throw fault codes (call the Tech!) and refuse to charge - been there, done that!
2016 500e owner here. I appreciate the insight. I drive 6 miles a day and absolutely LOVE my Fiat. You are spot on in your assessments. Hopefully you get that bit back and balance your cells. It's not too different than lipos and brushless motors on me RC airplanes!😅
@@PedroBrando Yup! I've got a few sizeable toys that take a 14s (2 7 cell in series) and a 350 amp ESC. They absolutely smoke a gas plane of similar size, but have a short flight time. Much like my Fiat! It's crazy good. So good Im probably going to grab a few more of them.
As an electrician for a living, a car enthusiast and electronics hobbyist, i find EV repair very interesting. Hopefully we can save these vehicles from becoming e-waste after 6-10 years of use. Also look forward to more opensource Inverter/controller projects. I prefer internal combustion engines for fun, but you are right these ev's are not going away/
Ditto. At 57, I grew up with holly double barrel carbs, the 3 on the tree and 4 on the floor trans, and have watched the progression of gas engines. I'm amazed now at what the electric a/c drive motors can do in things like the Tesla Plaid! The instant torque puts gas to shame, and the way you can keep adding the small motors for more and more power, like in the Tesla semi. I really want to see performance EV's grow.
Yep that's one of my biggest issues with EV's is their cost, and how quickly they become e-waste. Also the other issues that need to be addressed is that in many rural areas, and smaller towns of this country there are ZERO public charge stations, and I live along a major hurricane evac route in a small town so says if someone forgot to charge, then gets the order to evac from a major hurricane, they are screwed if they have no power left when they get to my small town with only 2 gas stations, and no public charging. Hell there were parts of my town that could barely keep the lights on during tropical storm Ernesto this past week, and you can't even get a good cell signal no matter what carrier you have. 😅
@@Nordic_Mechanic 100% we need cleaner batteries that are easy to replace, along with better cleaner power to charge those batteries not fake "green eco" solutions that really aren't that clean at all. Good news it looks like more advancements in cleaner nuclear power generation is on the horizon with smaller reactors on the way allowing for more stations to be built at lower cost with a cleaner waste byproduct. Having said that we will never truly be able to get rid of oil with now many other things are made from it that we all rely on in our daily lives.
The thing is the current 7-10 year batch of non Tesla EVs were as the wizard said test beds. The current batch will have much better long term support. Current average life span of a car is about 12 years. In 12 -15 years it's fair to assume it'll be 80% EVs
Great way to show people that electric cars are not some kind of magical technology and can be fixed just like anything else. The main problem with these cars are the manufacturers who would very much like you to think about a car the same way you think about a smartphone, and buy a new one as soon as you have any problems while not providing any repair documentation and parts. Yes, there are new previously unseen bells and whistles but in the grand scheme of things they are just battery-powered electric motors - not a new groundbreaking tech by any means. If anyone is interested in EV repair adventures I highly recommend Aging Wheels channel - he regularly goes very deep into obscure electric cars and gets his hands into actual control circuitry.
"Great way to show people that electric cars are not some kind of magical technology and can be fixed just like anything else." Do you know anyone that really believes that BEVs are unfixable or is it just like creating a straw man? Besides, it still doesn't necessarily mean it is worth it. Insurance companies agree and deem them a total loss on the regular basis.
@@worldhello1234 there are quite a lot of people thinking like that. Quick youtube search can give you almost endless amount of videos on the topic and the main problem that I see in them - dealerships will put absolutely mad prices on anything not related to basic maintenance, working with everything on full component basis: the battery is giving you trouble? Swap the whole unit! That'll be 35 grand, thank you very much. To be fair, the same thing happens at dealerships with ICE cars too - that's why almost nobody is going to dealerships for service work on older cars. But there isn't yet a robust infrastructure of independent EV mechanics like there is for ICE cars - for example, like Wizard says, there is literally one place somewhere in Eastern Europe repairing Fiats control modules. The reason is twofold, I believe - old guard of mechanics are usually far removed from serious high-voltage electrical work, while the manufacturers are not making it easy to learn by hiding documentation, refusing access to diagnostics software, blocking third party parts and so on. They are attempting to subvert the right to repair for profit, capitalizing on a general lack of EV knowledge in independent shops to create the halo of exclusivity and complexity to shackle consumers to themselves.
Thank you Wizard for this down to earth video. When it comes to EVs emotions get out of hand and I think Hoovie did a calculated video with some wild claims because of that just get those interactions.. oh well. In Germany there are already shops that replace bad packs of your typical first gen Tesla Model S 85. They can even upgrade your 85 to a 90 oder 100. It even shows properly in the dashboard. You can also get your broken car picked up by the EV Clinic in Croatia, where they have a lot of experience already. I think it is ~800€ for transport and I have seen battery repairs below 6k €. This is not rocket science after all and those shops will keep on growing as demand is getting bigger. And thankfully newer batteries are quite cheap when compared to the old 85 Tesla packs. For example: Tesla quotes you around 16k € for a swap when out of warranty. But with the newer LFP batteries in the Model 3 it is already below 10k €. Prices will only go down from here on out.
Thank you for educating your audience and showing us the facts. Most other automotive channels these days are about spreading their opinion from behind a desk. I agree with the universal battery cell architecture.
Young electromechanic here. I think you're absolutely correct on everything you said about EV's. Yes,they have a lot of advantages over ICE cars,yes will be more repairable in the future and yes,you better believe they will out range ICE. It's a technology that's only 10-15 years old. Wait another 10 years and see.
If I were you I definitely wouldn't be touching the battery pack without electro-insulating gloves until you disconnected enough busbars between modules so the voltage in any part of the battery is below 120V. After many years of working on self-made accumulators for Formula Student that were 450 or 600V I know how dangerous they can be. With proper precautions they don't have to be, but you must never forget about it
@@stevejones9788 Thomas Edison electrocuted circus animals and livestock with Westinghouse/Tesla's "killer (alternating) current", promoting DC as a safer for consumers. At the level of current and voltage we're talking about here, one could be just as departed with either AC or DC. Shop safety will have a different look than we're used to in ICE repair shops.
Completely agree... even my Grampa (WW2 US Army Engineers electrician) said "never trust electricals, it'll bite you when you're not thinking!" and my training was that 50vdc or less was the upper safety limit, 28v or less is the range of real safety. Note to general readers- its actually the current flow thru your body that kills, and EV packs have obviously massive Amps potential! If you dont completely understand electical hazards, do the course work or dont get under the hood!
Hey Wizard, My name is Eric and I live in the Netherlands, I started watching Hoovies and that is how I got to know you. I is really smart and educational to make this your project. Keep up the great work! And mrs Wizard is amazing!
For being in the field almost 35 years we were going from feedback carburetors to TBI injection when I started. I think the electric stuff has a place but it’s not where it needs to be for the masses yet. I still feel like hybrid technology is going to be the technology that gets us to the next developments that will see battery technology and range get to where it will be available for the masses in a cost effective and efficient way.
A beautifully done video. I do really love this car and you’re right once you get everything in order, you probably will have it for a long time to come. You definitely scored well. I’m sure the cells in it will last 15 years easily maybe even more before major trouble. They are really well made. I know mine is almost 11 years old still going strong. Honestly the battery in the 500e is really a work of art when you look at it and as such it should be in a museum in the future to show off what early batteries looked like in EV’s 😂.
Can I just say that the quick mention of how you and Mrs wizard started your shop was really awesome that was so great and look at you now may God continue to bless you and your family for all of your hard work 🙂🫡
There will never be a unified batery platform. Case in point is laptop batteries, almost every battery has an 18650 cell bundle inside and yet they all use sealed cases to where its impossible to replace an individual cell. I am a pc repair shop and i pull the packs apart and save the cells, they are almost always good.
2:40 To answer your question, Wizard, Here in the UK, I can contact 2 companies that only service and repair EVs: One company has a fleet of 4 or 5 MG EVs station wagons that will dive and carry out the service at your location - One of their MGs has well over 200,000 miles with another over 100,000 miles. While the other has the same setup as you but only works on EVs. Near me, there is a rental/lease company and you can borrow an EV for a few hours up to a few years. I also know one company (dealership) that only sells EV cars.
I was extremely close to buying a used Tesla Model 3 but wussed out.. but I had a chat with a guy who runs a fleet of high mileage Model 3's and he said they were astonishingly reliable.. they were all on galactic mileage and running great.
In practice, unless the contactors have welded shut in the battery pack, you can safely remove all the connectors without removing the fuse first. But they put safely in layers just to make sure no one gets hurt, even if there is welded contactors.
EVs are like sushi. The thought of raw fish was crazy to me before I tried sushi. After I tried it I really liked it though and have sushi often. I got an EV in march and I have a level 2 charger at home. For me, along with my coyote powered f150, my EV fits really well into our lifestyle. For me anyway, it’s been a good experience and we mostly use the EV - but I won’t sell my F150 any time soon either.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 hahahaha oh stop it. If you use any power from the grid you're still using those so-called "fossil fuels", stop kidding yourself. Oil is abiotic, you might want to learn something before you regurgitate nonsense that you've been fed since childhood. I would advise you to go look at the toxic wasteland that is left from the mining for lithium to make your loving and "green" batteries hahaha. 🤡
@@wolfgangpreier9160 wow, EVs are fast and still lame. Funny how that's the only thing you replied to when I was speaking on real topics. You sound like you have arrested development and the mind of a 15 year old. No one cares how fast your EV is chump.
Heck we had electric vehicles since the late 1800s. A lot of people just don't realize an EV has been around just about as long as an ICE powered car has. Its just that battery tech (especially back then) was highly limiting so i didn't really take off until recent years.
Thats why i still drive a 89 camry (215k) and really only have owned cars from the 90s. My wife drives an 07 outlander 207k miles. Im looking at getting a 2007-2012 minivan for my expanding family. I drive older because i like being able to fix most of the stuff myself. Saves money and im not professional mechanic just a regular guy whos mechanically inclined
Perfect video, you both are getting real good. - show every thing i expected - everything setup before the shoot. - good pacing, not a second i wanted to FFW or SKIP Good Job !!
It’s my understanding the 500e was a compliance car. Some left coast states required auto manufacturers to sell something to do business there. FCA sold these at a loss.
The only reason they exist are for compliance, especially when certain presidents set the ball rolling to push away mature, proven technology that can refuel in minutes and not in hours. Edit: I'm pro EV, but even I can see through the propaganda and know that this push isn't a natural market force, but extreme government intrusion.
FCA made a loss because they paid Bosch substantial amounts to build the entire Battery and drivetrain 🤷 but without the 500e FCA couldn't have sold any of its highly profitable Dodges and Jeeps
Agree with you Wizard on the standardization of batteries in those packs. The real problem is greed from Automotive manufacturers. Plus battery technology is always advancing. I see more companies though sharing technology to advance each others model offerings. Like Mazda & Toyota getting together with Mazda getting Toyota's hybrid technology.
I’m not a mechanic and have no interest in working on my own cars, but i really appreciate the things i learn on this channel. This is simply one of the best auto maintenance and repair channels out there.
It's cool you are doing a deep dive on this thing. It's a 24kWh pack BTW and in my experience would never ACTUALLY go more than 90mi despite what the guess-o-meter would say. Fun until ~30mph, weak after that, even a little scary on the highway. Safety, what safety? Stellantis (then FCA) didn't care much about the 500e, outsourced it to Bosch, no one wanted to service it or give parts even when it was still in production. The CAN system was different and weird, the app was 3 years with no way to extend. Just end up being a bad time, an afterthought they never really wanted to commit to. Having also owned the similarly sized MINI SE, the two couldn't be any further apart. The FIAT was a toy and the MINI an actual vehicle, something that still rings true as both of these EVs have entered their second generations. MINI dealers also have no qualms working on them, even BMW and independent shops knew how to handle them. They are just MINIs with batteries and rely heavily on the parts catalog and tooling (BMW i3, other MINIs, etc.)
every individual spotweld is a potential fire cause. poor welds make heat under current draw. a Tesla has about 7000 cells,14,000 spotwelds. then there's the wiring connectors. more complexity is more to go wrong.
Some 9 year old is going to be shown by his father how to remove one of these battery packs someday. That 9 year old is going to have the biggest shop ever.
I think any responsible father will keep for a while his 9 year old away from tinkering with 600 volt/ 300 amp producing electric setup. Have you seen many fathers allowing their kids to replace breakers in house panels? Ok, 9 year old may take off the battery, as far as unscrewing bolts got (so we are back to mechanical skills)
@@richardwarren7492 Oh, the things I could confess to opening, inspecting, adjusting and generally futzing with in my youth. Both of my grand-families were farmers and my maternal grandfather worked as a mechanic, too. I like to think my curiosity about how things work, how things are made, and how work gets done is part of my DNA. I was using power tools around age 10, IIRC, and was building electronics kits with hot soldering irons around then, too. Managed to not burn down the house or lose any appendages.
I own a nissan leaf and indeed their temprature is not managed but the cells are hardened to take on the temperature differences. Now, they are not doing as good a job as temp managed cells. However if you drive it in a mild climate, charge only occasionaly up to 100 prcent and even less with fast charging... best avoid that all together the batteries can last a long time. We do short distances with the leaf and large ones with ice Ford Kuga/Escape.
Good for you Wizard for being open minded about EV technology and trying to learn about it and educate people. I am subscribed to many ev forums to try and educate myself. These forums are full of closed minded people that spread false information about EV's because they are scared if what they dont understand.
There's still people who think "lithium batteries" (what kind?) "explode", "can't be recycled" and that solar panels "leak toxic waste" and are worried about "the plastics in windmills" (while throwing out thousands of single use bottles) lol. Mind you, on the other side some people say a thin cloud layer only drops solar output "by" 10%. More like "to" 10%！
The nice thing about the leaf is it comes with CHADEMO which allows you to do vehicle to home charging or powering your home. If your utility allows it you could consider buying a leaf purely to coast your home through the night if you have a large solar electric system on your home. Could use without solar just to coast you through higher rate periods in some areas. Most utilities don’t allow this though.
I think the main problem people have with EVs is the government pressures. I don't remember any major controversies around power tools going from pneumatic to corded electric, and then to battery electric. Let the free market decide. You can still buy tons of pneumatic tools today if you want. The free market knows better than some bureaucrat in DC anyday!
Every single step in automotive design has been through government regulation. From seat belts to emissions to the color, type, and placement of lights. Add on the monopoly of early oil producers, oil producers actively killing public transportation, and the government not electrifying rural areas until the TVA and you get a sector dominated by ICE vehicles. It's always been this way
@@gerrye114The way that you equate headlights and seatbelts which are trivial add-ons to the prohibition of ICE vehicles and subsidization of BEV vehicles is insane. Again, let the free market decide. This isn't a $50 part we're talking about here. It's the entire vehicle itself.
You're right, years ago we used to smile at the "Tesla vs Dodge vs Chevy" as be amazed at what the electric a/c motor could do. In this administration, we now sling slurs and hurl political insults. The change has been recent and drastic.
@@kalashnikov1343 Fun Fact; there is no prohibition of ICE vehicles in existence anywhere. There are guidelines for phase out gas cars. BUT not a law whereby the Feds, in body armour, tanks and attack helicopters, will come and destroy your 1936 Cord gas car, or your Pinto! IF the free market were to decide the fate of EVs, the USA would have quality, inexpensive ChiCom EVs--just like Europe. The USA will never see them, its Protectionist legislation, that they bought from Congress, to keep out the competition, and put the USA industries even further behind in Progress.
Mr Wizard (car wizard, not science wizard), this was a fantastic video. I really appreciate how you talked about this EV and others from a pretty neutral standpoint. Watching this tear down of the battery was great and very informative. I can’t wait to see this 500e back on the road.
@@Chris-hw4mq Every 8 year old car is outdated and one step before its grave. Batteries last much longer than the rest of the cars. Such cars like the Fiat, the Tesla Roadster or Nissan Leaf were from the first generation of Li-Ion based cars. Now we drive 4th generation cars. Its like a comparison between a Convair and a Toyota Camry.
I'm all for the best solution to a problem. I don't think the current implementations of EVs are great solutions, but the goal of getting away from internal combustion is admirable and necessary. I wish more of us would try harder to look at the technology objectively. We need better battery tech or a different medium to store the electrical energy. I used to work for a hydrogen fuel cell startup. Those cars are fundamentally electric cars, but the energy is stored chemically. Still not a great solution, but a step in the right direction.
So many car enthusiast channels are very negative about electric. Its refreshing to see you taking a practical honest approach and trying to learn what is actually going on. It seams like one of the big issues is a lack of knowledge and part availability. And it doesn't seam like the manufacturers are make much effort to support repairing the electric cars.
It's refreshing to see a fair, balanced video about an EV for a change. Most of what I see online these days are aggressve anti-EV hit pieces. Well done, Wizard.
The attack against EVs on YT is ridiculous. Channels pop up just for that. To prove that it's BS, China is at 50% sales of vehicles going to 🔌 , Norway sells 90% EVs & Ethiopia has banned the import of ICE cars to curb its 🛢 dependancy. Some city centers in Europe are already banning ICE vehicles (general ban should be between 2030 to 2040, probably with a ca€h for clunkers). It won't take 20 years to go to 💯 EVs.
I hope it works out that you can trust a mechanic 5000 miles away in eastern Europe since it is hard to find a mechanic that won't rip you off here. I watch many youtube vids that talk about the problems with EV's in general but trusting a Fix It Again Tony is brave of you. Good luck
What disheartens me is... the modern automotive industry is so Anti-Repair, Anti-Owner Repair and forced obsolescence resulting in perfectly usable cars that you can't fix... I've already lost a car to it.
I hate manufacturers for not making things like this easy to fix or diagnose. Fiat would have just told you to you need to replace the battery. Guaranteed.
Mopar EV tech here. The issue is technician training. No one was trained in taking these packs apart, so it was easier and safer for the manufacturer to just replace it. Now VW, Kia, and Rivian are taking them apart. Mopar is slowly rolling out the training as well.
The big difference is electric batteries are limited just as gas engines are by laws of physics and making better batteries unless some miraculous breakthrough comes through, is being pushed to the max. How many times have you over the last few years that the next "miracle battery" is just around the corner and then you never hear about it again. There is a reason gasoline has been so good for so long. It is the most energy dense substance we have that can be handled relatively safely and we understand it extremely well.
Batteries have been improving for the last 30-40 years, these improvements are going to continue. Do you still use Ni-cad batteries in your mobile phone?
Sourcing gasoline can be tricky since its something only state level entity can procure. For anyone who complain about government ev meddling they need to remember that gasoline industry cant exist without government assistance.
The physics of how the vehicle is powered is not the issue, it's more so that battery tech has a ways to go in terms of charging and longevity. Once they can get a battery that can last 10+ years, run for about 200k miles and cost under $10k replace, it will still be behind gas vehicles. One day perhaps we will get there, but my guess is by the time this all becomes mainstream, other existing tech like hydrogen fuel will also be coming and that's more sustainable (although the logistics haven't been worked out) than EVs.
Diesel, gas, electric all have their strengths and weaknesses. Where diesel has often been migrated to big, heavy, high-torque, low RPM applications, electric for most part hasn't reached the same conclusion. Problem: Lack of energy density. Solution: Use in applications that require less energy. When scientists have worked on making an electric vehicles, you're usually seeing major differences in weight and aerodynamics. The Aptera has the same aerodynamic wind resistance of a mirror on a Ford truck. They're light weight. This leads to less batteries needed, longer range, lower entry costs, etc. The problem comes from the marketing side of things. People just don't start adopting things that departure from the norm that easy. So we have car companies making basically ICE vehicles by throwing more battery and high cost to the consumer. This Fiat 500 is a big heavy box compared to what makes sense for an EV.
I'm glad that you're not a EV hater. Most of the gear head channels are. I'm not ready to buy an EV yet, although, I do have a reservation for an Aptera. My number is in the 38,000 range so, if/when they get into production, it'll be many years before my number comes up. I'm not an early adopter so I'm taking a 'wait and see' approach.
Anyone who still say "but after 6 years the battery is dead", just look at this fiat, its 10 years old and its problem is an electronic module, not the battery cells. As the wizard said, earlier evs didnt had colling for the battery so their battery was dead quickly. This fiat and anything newer than that have cooling and its rare that the battery degrade so much. Also newer batteries supposed to be have longer life - from what I hear LFP type batteries that is common mostly in anything that is medium and cheap-ish should last basically forever... But as you can see in the video the problem is hard to reach parts that are unobtainable. So a very popular modern EV should be very long lasting. We will see..
this Fiat 500e may be the exception rather than the norm. perhaps light usage,and better care/garaged. Cooling doesn't matter when the EV is sitting outside in 110DegF heat for a few months. Southwest US,Florida and the Gulf states,there's heat for several months of the year. Up north,a few months of LOW temps,not good for batteries either. In Buffalo,my dad used to install an engine block heater so his ICE car would start in January and February low temps. the thermal power of a 100W lightbulb made a HUGE difference.
The battery control module is part of the battery. If it fails the battery is dead. If the coolant system leaks in the battery pack it will most likely kill the battery.
"normal" Li-Ion batteries, aka NMC, have more energy density and are used in phones etc. They last about 800 cycles (0%-100%) until 80% of the battery still works, then there's a rapid dropoff until they die. I actually used a 2012 phone up until 2023 which now doesn't hold a charge at all. So 11 years from new to failiure is pretty good. LFP batteries are actually worse for energy density (less range for more size and weight) but last 2-3 times longer and are also a lot safer. They should be great for small "around town" cars, something else will fail before the battery does. There's also talk of giving old EV battery packs a second life as powerwalls in houses, so people can solar charge them during the day and run things at night.
It’s going to be such a huge deal when 3rd party battery suppliers become firmly established to keep EVs on the road much longer. I do expect EVs will for a long time have a steeper depreciation curve than gas cars because of people accounting for battery life.
No they do not. Batteries last much longer than the cars. The Fiat is 1. gen, just as the Nissan or E-Golf. Now we drive 4th gen and he batteries are not a topic anymore.
@@jasonsmith1389not always. Depends on the accident. If all you did is hit road debris and it's low mileage they may fix it. If you are in a collision bad enough to damage the pack, then you are going to have huge damage elsewhere. Never seen the pack damaged where it didn't also total the car based on front, rear or side impact damage.
Third party batteries do exist, but you get what you pay for. You want to only pay $5k instead of the $15k for the OEM battery, you may only get 3 years out of the third party battery, whereas an OEM one might get you another 8-10 years, but be an overall better value per dollar, $1500 per year amortized versus about $1667 for the third party battery. For a short term the numbers aren't that big of a deal, but these numbers may jsut be for the battery itself, not including installation, which can add up, as you'd have to replace the cheaper battery probably 3 times so it 's not "cheaper" necessarily to go with third party. I've learned this many times with many things (not just cars). It sometimes doesn't pay off and you're better off just going an getting another OEM particularly if that OEM battery lasted say 10+ years.
I was waiting for it and you did it. You called it a 42 kW battery pack. Please read and remember what has now become an old saying in the EV world- "Not knowing a watt from a watt-hour is like not knowing the difference between horsepower and how much fuel the fuel tank holds."
I think most people just don't care about the correct terminology and is said more in favour of it sounding better. Same as when "we" are asked "how much power does your car have" and the answer is "250 horses".... it's just easier on the tongue in my language. It is basic understanding that if you are talking about the battery you are talking about capacity, and if you are talking about the motor you mean power.
There are actually a lot of ev only shops out on west coast but they are everywhere honestly…….the neat thing about most ev is they really don’t malfunction until they are later in life……..as far as ev staying and improving…….we rejected cell phones and smart phones in the beginning……..now it’s like a appendage
Wow, an impartial assessment of the EV revolution thank you. A simple fix to, brilliant. Thank you Wizard. Plain speaking, informative, non biased Brilliant
I had a 50 mile roundtrip commute for 25 years, this would have been perfect for that scenario and being retired now it would work for 90 percent of my driving needs.
@@nathanahubbard1975 I’ve got no idea which states they were sold but what i know is all of them that you can buy here in Europe been shipped back from US
"Wizard's Ways - After Dark" - the steaming tale of an Alfa Romeo and Lambo Countach under the Omega roof. Is that magic in the air or just Brakleen? Stand by for Season 1, Ep 1!
I have a Golf 7 GTE with new batterypack for 4 months now, i love it. You have both the power of EV + gas. It does 1 liter gasoline to 60km 😅 + has 204 ps🎉
I remember when hybrid came out, my boss car repair shop owner was afraid to touch them and hear people saying the same thing about the hybrid as they are about electric cars. People are afraid of the unknown. They used to love discovery, but ....
I wish that people would stop making faulty assumptions about the drivers. You know, Hoovie has owned a few EVs and he doesn't strike me as an extremist who wants to crush and ban all future gasoline powered cars. There is more than one reason why someone might buy electric.
OTOH,our present gov't wants to FORCE a total changeover to EVs. they are "persuading" automakers to stop making ICE autos. it's not the market that's deciding,it's the bureaucrats. When gas took over from horses,it was the market,the consumers,that decided. and petro companies expanded the fuel distribution system on their own money,not gov't grants.
My spouse has a MB EQE 350+ SUV, and we like it. Very smooth and quiet, and despite the 5700 pound curb weight and only 288 hp, this thing's performance off the line is thrilling! 0-60 in 6.2 seconds, but the initial shove is amazing. It has a range of about 270 miles, so we could drive it to Key West or Orlando. And we have a 19 KW charger installed next to our driveway in Fort Lauderdale to charge it, that was $1300. The charger can add 10% charge per hour, and we have the car set up so that it charges to 80%, and then we run it down to about 40% and hook it up. Since we have a 12.7 KW solar array on the roof, the car is essentially charged for free. My own car is a '14 Cayman S, with the 3.4 liter Flat-6. 325 horsepower with PDK, it has a Cantrell exhaust mod that gives it full time sound equivalent to Porsche Sport Exhaust, and you get this sensation from the sound and vibrations just behind your backbone of a light aircraft, such as a Piper Saratoga or a Beechcraft Bonanza, you know, that kind of rumbling long duration cam flat 6 sound. I think that the sound and vibration is part of the experience of this car and I like the fact that it is ICE. Then again, it takes 4.2 seconds to get to 60 mph from a dead stop; The next Cayman comes out next year and is going to be electric, and the rumor is that it will get to 60 mph in 2.1 seconds, or HALF the time of my car and that's just the base model. That is something that I am going to have to experience, and I'll make the decision to go electric after a good test drive when these come out. Folks, if you like cars, your car is your Personal Rollercoaster. You need to decide what you like best: Is it the old wooden roller coaster that thrashes you and throws you around, or is it the new metal coaster with nylon wheels that pulls some serious G's.... You decide.
Imagine Wizard shop having 5-7-10 of these battery packs lowered and scattered around for replacement BPCM's or cells and for Wizard it would be no-brainer to fix EV-s by removing the packs, opening them up, going through the battery elements and wiring and pinpointing the issues. Claiming, that yep, no problem, we can replace this piece and you can pick up your vehicle tomorrow. Thank you very much!
It is not as easy. You may notice that even in household use, it is not recommended to mix old and new batteries. I'd suspect that is a bit an issue with cells in EV's as well, when they have to be finely balanced to properly perform
It's an economy of scale thing to have an employee do that work - disassemble, catalog and track, evaluate, electrically exercise, and grade individual component cells. IF the physical shape of the component cells were consistent it could be possible to automate some of that work at scale and become very productive. Right now it's hands-on work in the early days of a re-imagined energy medium.
@@raygunsforronnie847 Interesting this does not happen with powertool batteries. One would think there would be small shops everywhere (like phone screen replacement/repair shops) that would be renewing li-ion batteries left and right. But not
@@dmitripogosian5084 Near me there are 2 battery shops that rebuild power tool batteries. One only does all new cells, the other will grade and match. I think the owner's kids do the grading after school. Lots of things are possible but it takes a market for the product or service to make those viable.
I live 140 kms north from the arctic circle. Would be able to charge ev from our house, but the pricing, range in wintertime is awful. Might wait a while still.
@@IkeVMAX4 Yeah cold weather batteries are an unsolved puzzle. I think the solution at the moment is battery heaters to keep them warm, so long as the car is plugged in. But if you have to park outside in the snow it's a problem.
Wizard you are a great man! Thanks for this information about EV’s. I’ve watched your analysis of Hoovie’s cars for years. This video is full of some great factually correct gems!
Interesting video. I'd prefer a hybrid until EVs get better. My dad had one and he loved it. My nephew still drives that car. Remember: Don't let the old man in, Mr. Wizard!
I am like you Wizard, neither for nor against EVs. That being said with the current issues with battery density, support infrastructure, etc I feel hybrids are a good stepping stone. In addition to that I personally likely won't ever own an EV, then again being my own mechanic I much prefer owning things form the 00s and older. The newest I've owned thus-far is a 96 and I'm perfectly happy to keep it that way.
Thats totally fair. Most people who dont give a shit about cars though will warm to the idea of owning an EV. although not quite ready fot everyone in the US, there will come a time when mass EV adoption will take off.
Nitpicking, but batteries are measured in kilowatt hours, not just kilowatts. A watt is a rate, not a unit of power. You have to multiply it by time to get a unit of power.
Not to nitpick, but a kilowatt hour is a measure of work, not a measure of power. A watt by itself is indeed a measure of power, and it is how horsepower is measured in cars around the world that use the metric system.
I came through Newton a few years back towing my trailer with a wrecked Nissan LEAF to build a custom EV conversion and met you and got some t-shirts. If you need any help with that HV battery let me know! I'll come help you free of charge.
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loan sharks be loan sharks
@@jwenting yeah anything to make money,he dont think about what hes doin to individuals
The debt isn't real. But it is to those who believe in it.
Hi, this is Phil Rizzuto for The Money Store!
That was a smooth segue.
When I was a poor college student my toyota had what was called an ignitor module that failed. $400 at the dealer. Was told no serviceable parts in the module. My neighbor who was a electrical engineer took it on as a challenge. Got it opened and found a bad $5 resistor on a PC board. He replaced it and saved me a bundle. These automakers don't want you to be able to fix cars anymore.
anymore? They never did. SInce Ford made his Model-T.
It's not worth the dealers time and they don't want to warranty a repair like that.
I knew someone with a Buick Century that the odometer stopped working. Replacing a resistor fixed it. They are not magic and you can service modules.
lol Cars use "black box" tech. The idea is quick/cheap assembly and making it possible for a mechanic to repair any vehicle. There are still a few specialist shops (mostly in Europe) that specialize in rebuilding electronics. Each usually focuses on a few dozen products they can repair. If your mechanic also had a degree in electronics, he could have repaired the fault. Of course then your $400 replacement might have run $2000. Ask your friend how long he spent locating the problem then multiply that by shop hourly rates.
Bc they want that 36995 from you. I have a 2015 with 289k bc I’ve kept it up they want to take all your money and that’s it
I like Wizard's take on EV and gas. If a car is useful, or cool, or fun then I really don't care if you use gas, diesel, electricity or unicorn farts to power it. Getting all hot and bothered by what makes a car go is just a waste of time. Glad to see Wizard ain't falling into that trap.
Do you think we're pushing for EVs because they're cool or easy to use? How fucking regarded can you be. We're literally on the brink of mass extinction and this dude out here is like "oh yeah I'm cool with like whatever, I'm not a hater".
@@theyruinedyoutubeagain What a strange thing to ask. I tend to think I can be pretty well regarded, actually.
@@theyruinedyoutubeagainbrink of mass extinction 😆
There may be very few places that are willing to repair a BCM but Electronics are electronics. As an electronics repair technician who owns his own medical repair business, I can tell you there’s nothing special about what’s inside of that box. It’s just a matter of finding somebody that has the skill and knowledge to do component level repair.
I have owned a 500e for 6 years. Driven it over 60K miles. It hasn't given me a any problems at all. It's a blast to drive too! I live in North Carolina and have never even seen another one here. If it ever dies I probably won't be able to find anywhere to get it repaired. I've gotten my money's worth out of it already but really hope to drive it for a long time to come! I enjoy watching your video and hope you get it repaired soon.
What part of NC? It wouldn’t happen to be Raleigh?
At over $30k starting price, you got your money's worth out of it in 6 years and 60k miles? Damn, the standards are getting low.
Don't retire, Weeezard. UA-cam will be a sadder place without you🥺
@@richardbirkenwald811 I said retire. He doesn't have do it so soon. Seems like I barely started watching
EVs won't shut Wizard down. Heck, he could probably make the transition to hydrogen fuel cells.
Nah, Wizard will just replace Scotty Kilmer. :D
There will be others do not worry
Why not? Working gets old!
We have one of those Wizard. It's only 80 something miles. What that mileage on the dash shows you is the estimated range left at its current driving condition. It will constantly show near 100 miles when it was driven without the ac on and low speeds. Ac on and highway speeds brings that back down.
My experience totally the same. 90 miles is realistic. 128 on full charge assumes low speed, around town driving, which is what these are perfect and fun for.
I had one and only rated for about 85 miles from new. Loved the car tho! Sold it to get a Bolt since I wanted more range.
Yes,that's the exact case on my Nissan e-nv200. It usually varies between 89km and 120km. Depends on weather conditions,how you drive it,AC...etc
Mr. Car Wizard, You are very wise and forward thinking. The future success of EVs will require universal components,parts availability, and understanding so independent shops can keep them going. I am looking forward to seeing how this project turns out. Cheers.
Universal components like cars have now.
Everything else I agree with, and I think we'll start to see it in the next few years, but as long as manufacturers can get away with proprietary components they will.
How long did it take to adopt USB C just for cell phones?
David, you're such a pleasure. Very balanced unbiased presentation of new tech. You avoid jumping to conclusions too early, and you give time to form an opinion. Keep it like that. You were the first showing me the inside of a battery.
I see 126 miles on the guessometer all of the time, it readjusts the estimate as you drive. This pack was just fine.
those in the IT industry have seen paradigm shifts multiple times in our careers, the only constant is change. You have to keep up with change, and with over a million on the road in both the US and UK i applaud those wanting to keep ahead.
Yes, and many times things have gotten worse while costing more money, while it takes years for the tech to be fully realized as it was originally envisioned. I got off the early adopter bandwagon in tech pretty quick after getting burned a few times, and I sure won't be doing it for cars.
Wizard, I recently bought an 87 Chevrolet Celebrity wagon from the elderly, original owners. It’s in great shape, everything works, its entire service history is from a local Chevrolet dealer and it’s brown…everywhere. I love it and don’t even drive my 23 Escalade since I got Brown Betty.
P.S. Hoovie, it’s NOT for sale.
I can just picture Hoovie slapping the fendering and going "How much!?"
Any rust
@@welshrarebit9238 no, I live in Tennessee and it’s a local car
I loved the Celebrity!
@@welshrarebit9238 no, I live in Tennessee where winter is about 3 weeks long.
I am from Bulgaria and I drive 2016 KIA SOUL @174000 KM , 2014 CHEVROLET VOLT @273 000 KM and Im quite happy. Have to say we have great minds here that can fix a lot of stuff
Over here in Europe, parents would say: "take a bicycle for a mere 7,5km ride" 😉
Yep and in many cases in the US we (as kids) rode our bikes. Or, heaven forbid WALKED.
I still ride my bike at 76 years old to the grocery store, the bank, the DR's office, the dentist, and just for a nice ride in the mornings. Are furthest school is a whopping 1.5 miles and the kids wait for the school bus. I never see any walking or biking anymore.
Yeah a European woman I know was shocked I drive my six mile commute, rather than cycle.
I prefer to take one third the time in dry, warm comfort rather than ending up a cold, wet sweaty mess that has to dodge traffic.
@@drunkenhobo8020 Actually it's because you're lazy.
Well I take a bike for any one man trip under 10km (6mi) when it is not raining, not at night, and I don't have to carry big stuff like a week's groceries. However I do buy one bag of shop goods on a bike.
This is in the US SE. I've always done that for 5 decades since I was 10.
However cars are great dor distance, speed, passengers and cargo. A truly magical device in the history of humanity, that can be afforded by average commoners. This is only a 100 year benefit we get to enjoy in the long history of hard work.
The heart of the battery subsystem is the "BMS" or Battery Management System. They call theirs "Battery Control Module" but that is just industry naming games. The BMS' function is to monitor the battery health and charge as needed. Health is defined as State of Charge, ampacity, temperature, resistance, balance, voltage and current. Generally the BMS doesn't fail because it is really not stressed in operation. The inverter - the device that converts Battery DC voltage to AC voltage for the motor tends to get stressed and has large temperature swings. Note that batteries when accelerating and charging have peak amperage demands well beyond their normal specs. A battery pack rated for six amps may momentarily supply (or receive) 6 to 10 times that during these periods and because its a chemical process the temperature will rise dramatically and instantaneously well beyond the ability for the coolant system (if there is one) to mitigate. (The coolant will eventually pull this heat away but it will take tens of seconds or more. So that is the "curse" and the heart of most failures. When batteries super heat over multiple cycles they drift in capacity. And since you have a large number of cells they may not drift in unison. That differential is referred to out of balance and will throw warnings and eventually errors. Yes one bad cell can render a whole pack unusable. It may take 6 years to get there but that is the primary failure mode. And I said "one" bad cell. Well usually its one or more cells that have the worst cooling that go first. But what of all the not bad cells - they are perfectly fine. And that is why rebuilding with used "tested" cells is a valid solution. The key thing is once you pull that safety plug this is NOT a high voltage pack. Its a bunch of individual modules you can safely measure just as you would your standard car battery. You measure each cell one at a time (make a spreadsheet!) and determine who is the weakest link. If you see a small group that are more than 10% below the others - replace them all. Note that many home mechanics have taken these weak cells and recharged them separately and restored them to health. That is a gamble but can work. Its a lot of trouble to drop a pack so decide if the risk is worth it. The thing to understand is ALL THE CELLS are charged as one. So the weak cells never get special attention by the BMS. If they did, packs likely would last longer as drift (vs its neighbors) is really what throws the error.
Anyway - any good mechanic can master this new skill set. Most auto tech classes do a poor job at training for electrical and specifically computer failures. But its all understandable. EV's are far far less complex that ICE. Its just unfamiliar. So you learn a little and make it boringly simple.
And please - it should be crystal clear that Climate Change and Global Warming is real. We need this. Even an Exxon Mobil employee admitted to suppressing their climate findings from the 1980's. Can't go back; need to go forward. And it should be obvious as Teslas blow away Hellcats that there is no sacrifice EXCEPT range and charge times. And that is getting fixed. Tesla has open sourced their tech. That means any manufacturer can use it and drive the cost down while increasing the number of suppliers. Over 100 universities are working on new battery chemistries using common plentiful minerals. And all those batteries will be 100% recycled. So lower cost, longer range, faster charge times and a million mile car is coming. ICE and diesel specifically will still be around. They have unique benefits. So there will always be a market to service these.
Note - I doubt its the BMS. More likely there is one or two weak cells. The pack can only charge to the level of the weakest cell because its en electrical series circuit. Locate that cell and swap it with a new or used one (they are available) and you are back in biz. This is what Hoovie did on his Prius. He did the whole pack but that likely wasn't necessary. Note that these cells are maybe 20V and 10 amps worst case usually much less. You can safely handle them and even charge them with a low cost RC hobby charger. And you can measure them with a generic DMM. Many Prius owners have removed the weak cells and run a full discharge/recharge loop on them 10 times or so and brought them back to virtually new. Charting their "recovery" tells you if they are worth keeping. If each discharge / charge cycle shows improvement over the last - you keep going. If each is worse than the last - chuck it and get a fresh module. Finally batteryuniversity.com has all the knowledge you need. Check it out. Great resource.
What a hugely educational comment. Thank you.
Wow.. did I learn alot on this. Many thanks
Milwaukee batteries work the same way.
Comments like this are what makes YT worth it. Free shared knowledge that benefits everyone. Thank you.
@@gregjohnson2073 - All battery packs work the same way. That's why a cheap RC charger works! (Even on Milwaukees, DeWalts, Ryobi's etc)
Well Done, Wizzard!! Says this EV owner who is old enow to be your GrandDad! A very good introduction and overview of the future of the EV. And brave you are, as an ICE mechanic, to take the education of an EV power train. And add to: there are many places, mostly Calif. and Colorado, that HAVE EV only shops, your gas car can pound sand. And; there is the first glimpse of standardization in the EV world; the "Tesla Charge Point", the GM EV platform being used in a Honda and more. This writer had DECADES of fixing 'forever breaking' I.C.E. cars. NO MORE, NEVER AGAIN! He now owns, drives and LOVES the EV ownership experience.
This looks so familiar :) It's just like a LIPO battery pack for an RC car. But huge!
Thanks for this video, you are going through a familiar process of having to rebalance the pack.
This is educational for a lot of people who seem to think that a broken EV has to be thrown away.
The unified battery technology exists already, but it is a Chinese program that doesn't apply outside China. The solution is simple, Chinese cars like NIOs.
I helped with a major battery replacement on a vehicle once. It was older than yours, and the vehicle had a lot more miles on it. . And it was a lot bigger job. We replaced all 126 cells. And each cell weighed more than the entire Fiat. (The vehicle was the first submarine that I served on).
Bet the range was much better
Ahh yes, the early diesel-electric hybrids of yore! Wish I had a truck like that.😊
@@KevinSmith-ys3mh Actually, mine was nuclear. The diesel electrics had two batteries, each with a few more cells. At least, the WWII fleet sub that my first boat was named after did. I toured the WWII sub as a kid, then served on its nuclear namesake.
I leased one of these cute cars. Really good deal too .I can confirm that I can regularly get over 100 miles on a single charge. I live in LA and I suspected that it loves the stop and go traffic. I would also regularly take these to go to Palm Springs and San Diego with strategic stops in between to top off. It only had level two charging (No fast charge) and I was still able to make it work. I also had AAA membership with the 100 miles tow just in case, and never once did I use it in those three years despite coming close once or twice (like to the point that the car would no longer go more than 20 mph because it was running out of juice kind of close).
I am not an American, but a AAA-battery is probably not enough to get you home?😇
I live in Arizona and know people who own electric bicycles and other battery operated two-wheeled vehicles. The extreme heat from the pavement 150 degrees+ has an effect on the electric batteries in these bikes. This is why there are many people selling "used" electric bikes on Facebook. Extreme heat has a very bad effect on batteries. Electric bicycles have a very limit life compared to cooler parts of the country.
Something people don’t like to talk about. I’m in Arizona too and I have family in NY in buffalo. Neither location is kind to an EV at all.
That one of the big problems with evs that are cooled by air
We have a holiday property in Spain which we use 3 months a year and need to replace the batteries on the EV Scooter every year when we return due to the heat.
Yes, batteries are just like humans, they enjoy around 60-90 degrees for best longevity.
@@speedybaby
ICE are also cooled by air....all of them!
The newer EV batteries are water cooled...
then the coolant has the heat taken out of it by a radiator and a fan....
just like an water cooled ICE....
Bulgarians are not the only ones in the world to be able to repair this kind of stuff...
as you said in the video, a new kind of garages are specializing in evs, here in France, a well reputed one is able to repair all sorts of battery problems like dead cells on model S, or baterry management system on Fisker Karma, etc,
they are Revolte E-garage in Carquefou, France
I am a fan of your work Wizard, thanks for sharing your experiences and extended knowledges in your videos
thanks to Mrs Wizard too for all the work behind the scene !!
Exactly what I was thinking. Electronics are Electronics. There’s nothing special about it. I am electronics repair technician. I repair medical equipment. I run my own business. The challenge with some electronics are surface mount components that require a higher skill level and different equipment but again, Electronics are Electronics.
Wizard is about to get scammed big time by scammer nation.
@@Bizija123 we'll see. BG is the only former USSR republic that was producing computers for all the others. Many companies have there their IT base because the tech culture there is very strong. I'm not Bulgarian (Italian actually) and I have been in Sofia many times and this year I explored all of it in 2 weeks vacation. They have their skills. And I hope you're wrong.
Those other repairers need to have an online presence.
If you can't find them, you can't use them.
@@68404 Its very possible they have an online presence, but in their local online community. The global online community is a little harder to get onto.
I do want to say Thank you ! for saving this Fiat. I have always wanted one of these but knowing they were compliance cars their would be very little chance of finding anyone to work on their packs or parts for them. I had driven one of them when they were new- they are fun,fun little go carts!
My friend Audi E-tron with 20,000 miles. Died on the road, it gave him a 30-second warning before shut off. The front electric drive motor shorted out due to the cooling ports that were drilled into the motor assembly for cooling cracked and leaked coolant into the motor. $20,000 replacement cost. It was performed under warranty. He was not the only one who had this issue. The dealership had 6 other e-tron's with the same failure.
BMW has had multiple engine failures due to faulty engineering.
Toyota's recent engine replacement is another example. New technology carries some risk.
They are now using oil to cool the electric motor like in HV transformers, no coolant needed.
Modern german auto is crap all over the board. I would never buy one car from them, ICE or EV. Just look at what is on the roads: Less than 3 yo vehicles still under guarantee. After that they drop like flies. Even a cheap Chinese car does better than laggardcy German auto (who btw has been caught again using cheating devices to mask the pollution of their overengineered garbage engines).
30 second warning for a catastrophic failure sounds amazing. Much better than boom💥
As an EV driver and enthusiastic supporter of everything electric. I was really impressed with your balanced fair and knowledgeable presentation, been following your channel from the beginning and this video illustrates why you are a proper mechanic and not a technician as seems to be the norm these days. Keep up the good work informing us of the future of motoring.
I don't have a problem with EVs. I do think having taxpayers subsidize Teslas (and other expensive EVs) with a $7500 tax credit is unfair. CARB requirement that vechiles like this are sold is also states putting their finger on the EV / ICE scale.
@briangasser973 The whole EV trend is entirely artificial in nature. If the technology was there then the market would be driving the change. Government force is what is driving the change and that is the problem. You can't artificially force the change. Also none of the EV people are willing to accept that the batteries have to be manufactured and then you have to charge them using more resources than a regular ice car will. Just typical midwittery
@@briangasser973yeah I’m relatively certain that sort of thing didn’t go on in the transition from horses to autos making it a terrible equivalency
when charging times decrease and range increases enough, I'll jump on the bandwagon.
@@briangasser973. All cars are subsidised at point.
Your comments are spot on Wizard, Evs are the future. The biggest problem has been that we should have begun the development of a network of chargers, better batteries ,training mechanics and making it possible to swap batteries over years ago. Governments and car companies have screwed up the implementation of the new tech, vested interests have stood in the way of the transition at every possible way for decades.
Do not try charge it without coolant in the battery pack. The coolant PTC heater turns on for a moment and without coolant overheat, short it will blow the fuse in the battery pack. Had to learn this the hard way.
Thats what I expected; though it maybe necessary to identify low voltage packs, and bring them up individually into the average acceptable range (safely at low charge rate), before turning control over to the onboard charger to do fine balanceing. Otherwise it may just throw fault codes (call the Tech!) and refuse to charge - been there, done that!
2016 500e owner here. I appreciate the insight. I drive 6 miles a day and absolutely LOVE my Fiat. You are spot on in your assessments. Hopefully you get that bit back and balance your cells. It's not too different than lipos and brushless motors on me RC airplanes!😅
LiPo batteries certainly have changed the rc airplane and helicopter hobby for the better.
30% nitro helicopter fuel now costs $160.00 a gallon.
@@PedroBrando Yup! I've got a few sizeable toys that take a 14s (2 7 cell in series) and a 350 amp ESC. They absolutely smoke a gas plane of similar size, but have a short flight time. Much like my Fiat! It's crazy good. So good Im probably going to grab a few more of them.
As an electrician for a living, a car enthusiast and electronics hobbyist, i find EV repair very interesting. Hopefully we can save these vehicles from becoming e-waste after 6-10 years of use. Also look forward to more opensource Inverter/controller projects. I prefer internal combustion engines for fun, but you are right these ev's are not going away/
Ditto. At 57, I grew up with holly double barrel carbs, the 3 on the tree and 4 on the floor trans, and have watched the progression of gas engines. I'm amazed now at what the electric a/c drive motors can do in things like the Tesla Plaid! The instant torque puts gas to shame, and the way you can keep adding the small motors for more and more power, like in the Tesla semi. I really want to see performance EV's grow.
to save them from being ewaste we will need much cheaper and cleaner batteries
Yep that's one of my biggest issues with EV's is their cost, and how quickly they become e-waste.
Also the other issues that need to be addressed is that in many rural areas, and smaller towns of this country there are ZERO public charge stations, and I live along a major hurricane evac route in a small town so says if someone forgot to charge, then gets the order to evac from a major hurricane, they are screwed if they have no power left when they get to my small town with only 2 gas stations, and no public charging. Hell there were parts of my town that could barely keep the lights on during tropical storm Ernesto this past week, and you can't even get a good cell signal no matter what carrier you have. 😅
@@Nordic_Mechanic 100% we need cleaner batteries that are easy to replace, along with better cleaner power to charge those batteries not fake "green eco" solutions that really aren't that clean at all. Good news it looks like more advancements in cleaner nuclear power generation is on the horizon with smaller reactors on the way allowing for more stations to be built at lower cost with a cleaner waste byproduct. Having said that we will never truly be able to get rid of oil with now many other things are made from it that we all rely on in our daily lives.
The thing is the current 7-10 year batch of non Tesla EVs were as the wizard said test beds. The current batch will have much better long term support. Current average life span of a car is about 12 years. In 12 -15 years it's fair to assume it'll be 80% EVs
Great way to show people that electric cars are not some kind of magical technology and can be fixed just like anything else. The main problem with these cars are the manufacturers who would very much like you to think about a car the same way you think about a smartphone, and buy a new one as soon as you have any problems while not providing any repair documentation and parts. Yes, there are new previously unseen bells and whistles but in the grand scheme of things they are just battery-powered electric motors - not a new groundbreaking tech by any means. If anyone is interested in EV repair adventures I highly recommend Aging Wheels channel - he regularly goes very deep into obscure electric cars and gets his hands into actual control circuitry.
"Great way to show people that electric cars are not some kind of magical technology and can be fixed just like anything else." Do you know anyone that really believes that BEVs are unfixable or is it just like creating a straw man? Besides, it still doesn't necessarily mean it is worth it. Insurance companies agree and deem them a total loss on the regular basis.
@@worldhello1234 there are quite a lot of people thinking like that. Quick youtube search can give you almost endless amount of videos on the topic and the main problem that I see in them - dealerships will put absolutely mad prices on anything not related to basic maintenance, working with everything on full component basis: the battery is giving you trouble? Swap the whole unit! That'll be 35 grand, thank you very much.
To be fair, the same thing happens at dealerships with ICE cars too - that's why almost nobody is going to dealerships for service work on older cars. But there isn't yet a robust infrastructure of independent EV mechanics like there is for ICE cars - for example, like Wizard says, there is literally one place somewhere in Eastern Europe repairing Fiats control modules. The reason is twofold, I believe - old guard of mechanics are usually far removed from serious high-voltage electrical work, while the manufacturers are not making it easy to learn by hiding documentation, refusing access to diagnostics software, blocking third party parts and so on. They are attempting to subvert the right to repair for profit, capitalizing on a general lack of EV knowledge in independent shops to create the halo of exclusivity and complexity to shackle consumers to themselves.
Yep, you must send the part to Bulgaria. He is happy, as not required Martian mechanic. This Fiat 500 is trash for any regular person.
Swapping faulty parts is not really the problem with EV's the real problem is how expensive the parts are.
Thank you Wizard for this down to earth video. When it comes to EVs emotions get out of hand and I think Hoovie did a calculated video with some wild claims because of that just get those interactions.. oh well.
In Germany there are already shops that replace bad packs of your typical first gen Tesla Model S 85. They can even upgrade your 85 to a 90 oder 100. It even shows properly in the dashboard. You can also get your broken car picked up by the EV Clinic in Croatia, where they have a lot of experience already. I think it is ~800€ for transport and I have seen battery repairs below 6k €.
This is not rocket science after all and those shops will keep on growing as demand is getting bigger. And thankfully newer batteries are quite cheap when compared to the old 85 Tesla packs. For example: Tesla quotes you around 16k € for a swap when out of warranty. But with the newer LFP batteries in the Model 3 it is already below 10k €. Prices will only go down from here on out.
Thank you for educating your audience and showing us the facts. Most other automotive channels these days are about spreading their opinion from behind a desk. I agree with the universal battery cell architecture.
Young electromechanic here. I think you're absolutely correct on everything you said about EV's. Yes,they have a lot of advantages over ICE cars,yes will be more repairable in the future and yes,you better believe they will out range ICE. It's a technology that's only 10-15 years old. Wait another 10 years and see.
Mrs wizard thank you for your years of filming!! You're the best
If I were you I definitely wouldn't be touching the battery pack without electro-insulating gloves until you disconnected enough busbars between modules so the voltage in any part of the battery is below 120V.
After many years of working on self-made accumulators for Formula Student that were 450 or 600V I know how dangerous they can be. With proper precautions they don't have to be, but you must never forget about it
Even 120v dc will kill you as you can't let go !
@@stevejones9788 Thomas Edison electrocuted circus animals and livestock with Westinghouse/Tesla's "killer (alternating) current", promoting DC as a safer for consumers. At the level of current and voltage we're talking about here, one could be just as departed with either AC or DC. Shop safety will have a different look than we're used to in ICE repair shops.
Completely agree... even my Grampa (WW2 US Army Engineers electrician) said "never trust electricals, it'll bite you when you're not thinking!" and my training was that 50vdc or less was the upper safety limit, 28v or less is the range of real safety.
Note to general readers- its actually the current flow thru your body that kills, and EV packs have obviously massive Amps potential! If you dont completely understand electical hazards, do the course work or dont get under the hood!
Thanks for covering some EV basics- your perspective is appreciated
Hey Wizard, My name is Eric and I live in the Netherlands, I started watching Hoovies and that is how I got to know you. I is really smart and educational to make this your project. Keep up the great work! And mrs Wizard is amazing!
For being in the field almost 35 years we were going from feedback carburetors to TBI injection when I started. I think the electric stuff has a place but it’s not where it needs to be for the masses yet. I still feel like hybrid technology is going to be the technology that gets us to the next developments that will see battery technology and range get to where it will be available for the masses in a cost effective and efficient way.
Congratulations Wizard, I’m proud of you stepping out of your comfort zone (ice) to learn something new. Really enjoying the electric car series.
A beautifully done video. I do really love this car and you’re right once you get everything in order, you probably will have it for a long time to come. You definitely scored well. I’m sure the cells in it will last 15 years easily maybe even more before major trouble. They are really well made. I know mine is almost 11 years old still going strong. Honestly the battery in the 500e is really a work of art when you look at it and as such it should be in a museum in the future to show off what early batteries looked like in EV’s 😂.
Can I just say that the quick mention of how you and Mrs wizard started your shop was really awesome that was so great and look at you now may God continue to bless you and your family for all of your hard work 🙂🫡
His future son-in-law will probably be running an EV only shop. 😂😂😂
That all depends on right to repair.
He won't be much older when EV is getting to be the norm. It's coming faster than he things.
There will never be a unified batery platform. Case in point is laptop batteries, almost every battery has an 18650 cell bundle inside and yet they all use sealed cases to where its impossible to replace an individual cell. I am a pc repair shop and i pull the packs apart and save the cells, they are almost always good.
2:40 To answer your question, Wizard,
Here in the UK,
I can contact 2 companies that only service and repair EVs:
One company has a fleet of 4 or 5 MG EVs station wagons that will dive and carry out the service at your location - One of their MGs has well over 200,000 miles with another over 100,000 miles.
While the other has the same setup as you but only works on EVs.
Near me, there is a rental/lease company and you can borrow an EV for a few hours up to a few years.
I also know one company (dealership) that only sells EV cars.
I was extremely close to buying a used Tesla Model 3 but wussed out.. but I had a chat with a guy who runs a fleet of high mileage Model 3's and he said they were astonishingly reliable.. they were all on galactic mileage and running great.
@@jimtaylor431 they are a much better design and reliability vs the model S
thanks for this, helped this old man understand in a clear and simple manner how these EVs work
Thank you Wizard for shining a light on the old tech vs new tech.
In practice, unless the contactors have welded shut in the battery pack, you can safely remove all the connectors without removing the fuse first. But they put safely in layers just to make sure no one gets hurt, even if there is welded contactors.
EVs are like sushi. The thought of raw fish was crazy to me before I tried sushi. After I tried it I really liked it though and have sushi often.
I got an EV in march and I have a level 2 charger at home. For me, along with my coyote powered f150, my EV fits really well into our lifestyle. For me anyway, it’s been a good experience and we mostly use the EV - but I won’t sell my F150 any time soon either.
I have ditched all fossil use in 2019. Everywhere. I have a clean conscience toards my kids AND safe a bunch of money every year.
Bad analogy bub. EVs are lame and Sushi is awesome.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 hahahaha oh stop it. If you use any power from the grid you're still using those so-called "fossil fuels", stop kidding yourself. Oil is abiotic, you might want to learn something before you regurgitate nonsense that you've been fed since childhood.
I would advise you to go look at the toxic wasteland that is left from the mining for lithium to make your loving and "green" batteries hahaha. 🤡
@@jeepinintexas6215 Yes, very lame, the last Porsches and Lambos were roasted by my cheap Family SUV. Very embarassing.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 wow, EVs are fast and still lame. Funny how that's the only thing you replied to when I was speaking on real topics. You sound like you have arrested development and the mind of a 15 year old. No one cares how fast your EV is chump.
Heck we had electric vehicles since the late 1800s. A lot of people just don't realize an EV has been around just about as long as an ICE powered car has. Its just that battery tech (especially back then) was highly limiting so i didn't really take off until recent years.
Thats why i still drive a 89 camry (215k) and really only have owned cars from the 90s.
My wife drives an 07 outlander 207k miles.
Im looking at getting a 2007-2012 minivan for my expanding family.
I drive older because i like being able to fix most of the stuff myself. Saves money and im not professional mechanic just a regular guy whos mechanically inclined
Perfect video, you both are getting real good.
- show every thing i expected
- everything setup before the shoot.
- good pacing, not a second i wanted to FFW or SKIP
Good Job !!
It’s my understanding the 500e was a compliance car. Some left coast states required auto manufacturers to sell something to do business there. FCA sold these at a loss.
I remember they were being offered for $49 a month lease. As good as free
The only reason they exist are for compliance, especially when certain presidents set the ball rolling to push away mature, proven technology that can refuel in minutes and not in hours.
Edit: I'm pro EV, but even I can see through the propaganda and know that this push isn't a natural market force, but extreme government intrusion.
That is what this crap has always been. A govt statistic that manufacturers are forced to sell/ inflict on the public.
Yes, even the then FCA CEO Sergio Marchionne famously told the public not to buy these things because they lost money on each one of them.
FCA made a loss because they paid Bosch substantial amounts to build the entire Battery and drivetrain 🤷 but without the 500e FCA couldn't have sold any of its highly profitable Dodges and Jeeps
Agree with you Wizard on the standardization of batteries in those packs. The real problem is greed from Automotive manufacturers. Plus battery technology is always advancing. I see more companies though sharing technology to advance each others model offerings. Like Mazda & Toyota getting together with Mazda getting Toyota's hybrid technology.
Mrs Wizard strikes back: "You kind of an old man already" 😂
She didn't miss a beat 😂
As an 81 year old man you don't seem that old.
If I'm not mistaken,Mrs Wizard is older than him ????if he's an old man then she's an even older woman?
I’m not a mechanic and have no interest in working on my own cars, but i really appreciate the things i learn on this channel. This is simply one of the best auto maintenance and repair channels out there.
Kehr wizard you are the highlight of my day. Thank you for putting out all the videos that you do!
It's cool you are doing a deep dive on this thing. It's a 24kWh pack BTW and in my experience would never ACTUALLY go more than 90mi despite what the guess-o-meter would say. Fun until ~30mph, weak after that, even a little scary on the highway. Safety, what safety? Stellantis (then FCA) didn't care much about the 500e, outsourced it to Bosch, no one wanted to service it or give parts even when it was still in production. The CAN system was different and weird, the app was 3 years with no way to extend. Just end up being a bad time, an afterthought they never really wanted to commit to.
Having also owned the similarly sized MINI SE, the two couldn't be any further apart. The FIAT was a toy and the MINI an actual vehicle, something that still rings true as both of these EVs have entered their second generations. MINI dealers also have no qualms working on them, even BMW and independent shops knew how to handle them. They are just MINIs with batteries and rely heavily on the parts catalog and tooling (BMW i3, other MINIs, etc.)
The individual cells are quite easy to replace. Alibaba has millions of them. (they do not include instructions or a labor charge "book")
every individual spotweld is a potential fire cause. poor welds make heat under current draw. a Tesla has about 7000 cells,14,000 spotwelds. then there's the wiring connectors. more complexity is more to go wrong.
I hope the control module is the main problem. We all will sit tight and wait to see!
Some 9 year old is going to be shown by his father how to remove one of these battery packs someday. That 9 year old is going to have the biggest shop ever.
Yep, 100% correct
I think any responsible father will keep for a while his 9 year old away from tinkering with 600 volt/ 300 amp producing electric setup. Have you seen many fathers allowing their kids to replace breakers in house panels? Ok, 9 year old may take off the battery, as far as unscrewing bolts got (so we are back to mechanical skills)
@@dmitripogosian5084 And? What did you take apart when you were 9? Hmmm? Even though you were not supposed to?
@@richardwarren7492 Oh, the things I could confess to opening, inspecting, adjusting and generally futzing with in my youth. Both of my grand-families were farmers and my maternal grandfather worked as a mechanic, too. I like to think my curiosity about how things work, how things are made, and how work gets done is part of my DNA.
I was using power tools around age 10, IIRC, and was building electronics kits with hot soldering irons around then, too. Managed to not burn down the house or lose any appendages.
I own a nissan leaf and indeed their temprature is not managed but the cells are hardened to take on the temperature differences. Now, they are not doing as good a job as temp managed cells. However if you drive it in a mild climate, charge only occasionaly up to 100 prcent and even less with fast charging... best avoid that all together the batteries can last a long time. We do short distances with the leaf and large ones with ice Ford Kuga/Escape.
Good for you Wizard for being open minded about EV technology and trying to learn about it and educate people. I am subscribed to many ev forums to try and educate myself. These forums are full of closed minded people that spread false information about EV's because they are scared if what they dont understand.
There's still people who think "lithium batteries" (what kind?) "explode", "can't be recycled" and that solar panels "leak toxic waste" and are worried about "the plastics in windmills" (while throwing out thousands of single use bottles) lol.
Mind you, on the other side some people say a thin cloud layer only drops solar output "by" 10%. More like "to" 10%！
The nice thing about the leaf is it comes with CHADEMO which allows you to do vehicle to home charging or powering your home. If your utility allows it you could consider buying a leaf purely to coast your home through the night if you have a large solar electric system on your home. Could use without solar just to coast you through higher rate periods in some areas. Most utilities don’t allow this though.
I think the main problem people have with EVs is the government pressures. I don't remember any major controversies around power tools going from pneumatic to corded electric, and then to battery electric. Let the free market decide. You can still buy tons of pneumatic tools today if you want. The free market knows better than some bureaucrat in DC anyday!
Every single step in automotive design has been through government regulation. From seat belts to emissions to the color, type, and placement of lights. Add on the monopoly of early oil producers, oil producers actively killing public transportation, and the government not electrifying rural areas until the TVA and you get a sector dominated by ICE vehicles.
It's always been this way
@@gerrye114The way that you equate headlights and seatbelts which are trivial add-ons to the prohibition of ICE vehicles and subsidization of BEV vehicles is insane. Again, let the free market decide. This isn't a $50 part we're talking about here. It's the entire vehicle itself.
You're right, years ago we used to smile at the "Tesla vs Dodge vs Chevy" as be amazed at what the electric a/c motor could do. In this administration, we now sling slurs and hurl political insults. The change has been recent and drastic.
@@gerrye114 Thank you, you beat me to the reply and Points made, have my Upvote
@@kalashnikov1343 Fun Fact; there is no prohibition of ICE vehicles in existence anywhere. There are guidelines for phase out gas cars. BUT not a law whereby the Feds, in body armour, tanks and attack helicopters, will come and destroy your 1936 Cord gas car, or your Pinto! IF the free market were to decide the fate of EVs, the USA would have quality, inexpensive ChiCom EVs--just like Europe. The USA will never see them, its Protectionist legislation, that they bought from Congress, to keep out the competition, and put the USA industries even further behind in Progress.
Mr Wizard (car wizard, not science wizard), this was a fantastic video. I really appreciate how you talked about this EV and others from a pretty neutral standpoint. Watching this tear down of the battery was great and very informative. I can’t wait to see this 500e back on the road.
EVs were some of the first cars on the road.
and they are still junk. If you buy a 8 year old its already outdated and 1 step away from a battery swap
1832. Yes.
Correct.
@@Chris-hw4mq Every 8 year old car is outdated and one step before its grave.
Batteries last much longer than the rest of the cars. Such cars like the Fiat, the Tesla Roadster or Nissan Leaf were from the first generation of Li-Ion based cars. Now we drive 4th generation cars. Its like a comparison between a Convair and a Toyota Camry.
I'm all for the best solution to a problem. I don't think the current implementations of EVs are
great solutions, but the goal of getting away from internal combustion is admirable and necessary. I wish more of us would try harder to look at the technology objectively. We need better battery tech or a different medium to store the electrical energy. I used to work for a hydrogen fuel cell startup. Those cars are fundamentally electric cars, but the energy is stored chemically. Still not a great solution, but a step in the right direction.
So many car enthusiast channels are very negative about electric. Its refreshing to see you taking a practical honest approach and trying to learn what is actually going on.
It seams like one of the big issues is a lack of knowledge and part availability. And it doesn't seam like the manufacturers are make much effort to support repairing the electric cars.
True, the manufacturers want to build cars as a disposable item like flat screen TVs
It's refreshing to see a fair, balanced video about an EV for a change. Most of what I see online these days are aggressve anti-EV hit pieces. Well done, Wizard.
The attack against EVs on YT is ridiculous. Channels pop up just for that. To prove that it's BS, China is at 50% sales of vehicles going to 🔌 , Norway sells 90% EVs & Ethiopia has banned the import of ICE cars to curb its 🛢 dependancy. Some city centers in Europe are already banning ICE vehicles (general ban should be between 2030 to 2040, probably with a ca€h for clunkers). It won't take 20 years to go to 💯 EVs.
Lol, maybe he needs to sell it after fixing it; here in Europe, the 500e is one of the worst EVs you can buy.
I hope it works out that you can trust a mechanic 5000 miles away in eastern Europe since it is hard to find a mechanic that won't rip you off here. I watch many youtube vids that talk about the problems with EV's in general but trusting a Fix It Again Tony is brave of you. Good luck
What disheartens me is... the modern automotive industry is so Anti-Repair, Anti-Owner Repair and forced obsolescence resulting in perfectly usable cars that you can't fix... I've already lost a car to it.
What are the circumstances of your loss?
That's capitalism for ya
Thankfully someone talking sence about new technology and it's integration to the motoring world
I hate manufacturers for not making things like this easy to fix or diagnose. Fiat would have just told you to you need to replace the battery. Guaranteed.
Mopar EV tech here. The issue is technician training. No one was trained in taking these packs apart, so it was easier and safer for the manufacturer to just replace it. Now VW, Kia, and Rivian are taking them apart. Mopar is slowly rolling out the training as well.
Wizard, you have a good balance viewed of the transition we are going thru. Many people are way too emotional about EVs.
The big difference is electric batteries are limited just as gas engines are by laws of physics and making better batteries unless some miraculous breakthrough comes through, is being pushed to the max. How many times have you over the last few years that the next "miracle battery" is just around the corner and then you never hear about it again. There is a reason gasoline has been so good for so long. It is the most energy dense substance we have that can be handled relatively safely and we understand it extremely well.
Batteries have been improving for the last 30-40 years, these improvements are going to continue.
Do you still use Ni-cad batteries in your mobile phone?
Sourcing gasoline can be tricky since its something only state level entity can procure. For anyone who complain about government ev meddling they need to remember that gasoline industry cant exist without government assistance.
The physics of how the vehicle is powered is not the issue, it's more so that battery tech has a ways to go in terms of charging and longevity. Once they can get a battery that can last 10+ years, run for about 200k miles and cost under $10k replace, it will still be behind gas vehicles. One day perhaps we will get there, but my guess is by the time this all becomes mainstream, other existing tech like hydrogen fuel will also be coming and that's more sustainable (although the logistics haven't been worked out) than EVs.
@@HR-wd6cw The reason why they cant make hydrogen works for 2 decades is because they are more expensive than EV.
Diesel, gas, electric all have their strengths and weaknesses. Where diesel has often been migrated to big, heavy, high-torque, low RPM applications, electric for most part hasn't reached the same conclusion. Problem: Lack of energy density. Solution: Use in applications that require less energy. When scientists have worked on making an electric vehicles, you're usually seeing major differences in weight and aerodynamics. The Aptera has the same aerodynamic wind resistance of a mirror on a Ford truck. They're light weight. This leads to less batteries needed, longer range, lower entry costs, etc. The problem comes from the marketing side of things. People just don't start adopting things that departure from the norm that easy. So we have car companies making basically ICE vehicles by throwing more battery and high cost to the consumer. This Fiat 500 is a big heavy box compared to what makes sense for an EV.
I remember in the 70s and 80s that most shops couldn’t service imports and Japanese specialty shops opened.
In the 70's all I worked on was imports - - nobody else other than 1 dealer close by did. I was always busy.
I'm glad that you're not a EV hater. Most of the gear head channels are. I'm not ready to buy an EV yet, although, I do have a reservation for an Aptera. My number is in the 38,000 range so, if/when they get into production, it'll be many years before my number comes up. I'm not an early adopter so I'm taking a 'wait and see' approach.
Very non biased informative video wizard. Keep up the good work 🧙♂️
Anyone who still say "but after 6 years the battery is dead", just look at this fiat, its 10 years old and its problem is an electronic module, not the battery cells. As the wizard said, earlier evs didnt had colling for the battery so their battery was dead quickly. This fiat and anything newer than that have cooling and its rare that the battery degrade so much. Also newer batteries supposed to be have longer life - from what I hear LFP type batteries that is common mostly in anything that is medium and cheap-ish should last basically forever... But as you can see in the video the problem is hard to reach parts that are unobtainable. So a very popular modern EV should be very long lasting. We will see..
this Fiat 500e may be the exception rather than the norm. perhaps light usage,and better care/garaged. Cooling doesn't matter when the EV is sitting outside in 110DegF heat for a few months. Southwest US,Florida and the Gulf states,there's heat for several months of the year. Up north,a few months of LOW temps,not good for batteries either. In Buffalo,my dad used to install an engine block heater so his ICE car would start in January and February low temps. the thermal power of a 100W lightbulb made a HUGE difference.
The battery control module is part of the battery. If it fails the battery is dead. If the coolant system leaks in the battery pack it will most likely kill the battery.
How many miles did he say was on it? Its the charge amd discharge cycles as well as overheating that matters more than how old the batteries are.
"normal" Li-Ion batteries, aka NMC, have more energy density and are used in phones etc. They last about 800 cycles (0%-100%) until 80% of the battery still works, then there's a rapid dropoff until they die. I actually used a 2012 phone up until 2023 which now doesn't hold a charge at all. So 11 years from new to failiure is pretty good.
LFP batteries are actually worse for energy density (less range for more size and weight) but last 2-3 times longer and are also a lot safer. They should be great for small "around town" cars, something else will fail before the battery does. There's also talk of giving old EV battery packs a second life as powerwalls in houses, so people can solar charge them during the day and run things at night.
Also most of the lithium in a battery is recyclable. It needs to be reconditioned in order for it to be put back into a battery.
be interesting to see how you do a balance charge on the pack or if the rebuilt control unit can take care of that.
It’s going to be such a huge deal when 3rd party battery suppliers become firmly established to keep EVs on the road much longer. I do expect EVs will for a long time have a steeper depreciation curve than gas cars because of people accounting for battery life.
No they do not. Batteries last much longer than the cars. The Fiat is 1. gen, just as the Nissan or E-Golf. Now we drive 4th gen and he batteries are not a topic anymore.
Yes, that's why if you damage a battery pack, your vehicle is totalled by the insurance company.... Keep telling yourself that.
@@jasonsmith1389not always. Depends on the accident. If all you did is hit road debris and it's low mileage they may fix it.
If you are in a collision bad enough to damage the pack, then you are going to have huge damage elsewhere. Never seen the pack damaged where it didn't also total the car based on front, rear or side impact damage.
Third party batteries do exist, but you get what you pay for. You want to only pay $5k instead of the $15k for the OEM battery, you may only get 3 years out of the third party battery, whereas an OEM one might get you another 8-10 years, but be an overall better value per dollar, $1500 per year amortized versus about $1667 for the third party battery. For a short term the numbers aren't that big of a deal, but these numbers may jsut be for the battery itself, not including installation, which can add up, as you'd have to replace the cheaper battery probably 3 times so it 's not "cheaper" necessarily to go with third party. I've learned this many times with many things (not just cars). It sometimes doesn't pay off and you're better off just going an getting another OEM particularly if that OEM battery lasted say 10+ years.
Now at 120,000 km on our 2022 Tesla model 3 with only 3% degradation. I think rust will stop EV’s before the battery does.
I was waiting for it and you did it. You called it a 42 kW battery pack. Please read and remember what has now become an old saying in the EV world- "Not knowing a watt from a watt-hour is like not knowing the difference between horsepower and how much fuel the fuel tank holds."
I think most people just don't care about the correct terminology and is said more in favour of it sounding better. Same as when "we" are asked "how much power does your car have" and the answer is "250 horses".... it's just easier on the tongue in my language.
It is basic understanding that if you are talking about the battery you are talking about capacity, and if you are talking about the motor you mean power.
There are actually a lot of ev only shops out on west coast but they are everywhere honestly…….the neat thing about most ev is they really don’t malfunction until they are later in life……..as far as ev staying and improving…….we rejected cell phones and smart phones in the beginning……..now it’s like a appendage
Wow, an impartial assessment of the EV revolution thank you.
A simple fix to, brilliant.
Thank you Wizard.
Plain speaking, informative, non biased
Brilliant
Cheers from Bulgaria!!!
I had a 50 mile roundtrip commute for 25 years, this would have been perfect for that scenario and being retired now it would work for 90 percent of my driving needs.
The funny thing is that this 500e was never sold in Europe it was only available in US
It also wasn't sold in most of the US.
@@nathanahubbard1975 I’ve got no idea which states they were sold but what i know is all of them that you can buy here in Europe been shipped back from US
Wizard, I respect your even handed and reasonable views on the EV topic.
Love your work.
Here I am in the backseat with Mrs. Wizard
We’re not that kind of channel! 😂💀
If you can be that kind if channel in the back seat of a Fiat 500, that would be an impressive feat
@@gerrye114 I think you've found the next Tikky Tokky challenge.
"Wizard's Ways - After Dark" - the steaming tale of an Alfa Romeo and Lambo Countach under the Omega roof. Is that magic in the air or just Brakleen? Stand by for Season 1, Ep 1!
@@raygunsforronnie847 I do have a Fiat 500
I have a Golf 7 GTE with new batterypack for 4 months now, i love it. You have both the power of EV + gas. It does 1 liter gasoline to 60km 😅 + has 204 ps🎉
Electric cars were around back in 1915, too.
I remember when hybrid came out, my boss car repair shop owner was afraid to touch them and hear people saying the same thing about the hybrid as they are about electric cars. People are afraid of the unknown. They used to love discovery, but ....
I wish that people would stop making faulty assumptions about the drivers. You know, Hoovie has owned a few EVs and he doesn't strike me as an extremist who wants to crush and ban all future gasoline powered cars. There is more than one reason why someone might buy electric.
OTOH,our present gov't wants to FORCE a total changeover to EVs. they are "persuading" automakers to stop making ICE autos.
it's not the market that's deciding,it's the bureaucrats. When gas took over from horses,it was the market,the consumers,that decided. and petro companies expanded the fuel distribution system on their own money,not gov't grants.
My spouse has a MB EQE 350+ SUV, and we like it. Very smooth and quiet, and despite the 5700 pound curb weight and only 288 hp, this thing's performance off the line is thrilling! 0-60 in 6.2 seconds, but the initial shove is amazing. It has a range of about 270 miles, so we could drive it to Key West or Orlando. And we have a 19 KW charger installed next to our driveway in Fort Lauderdale to charge it, that was $1300. The charger can add 10% charge per hour, and we have the car set up so that it charges to 80%, and then we run it down to about 40% and hook it up. Since we have a 12.7 KW solar array on the roof, the car is essentially charged for free.
My own car is a '14 Cayman S, with the 3.4 liter Flat-6. 325 horsepower with PDK, it has a Cantrell exhaust mod that gives it full time sound equivalent to Porsche Sport Exhaust, and you get this sensation from the sound and vibrations just behind your backbone of a light aircraft, such as a Piper Saratoga or a Beechcraft Bonanza, you know, that kind of rumbling long duration cam flat 6 sound. I think that the sound and vibration is part of the experience of this car and I like the fact that it is ICE.
Then again, it takes 4.2 seconds to get to 60 mph from a dead stop; The next Cayman comes out next year and is going to be electric, and the rumor is that it will get to 60 mph in 2.1 seconds, or HALF the time of my car and that's just the base model. That is something that I am going to have to experience, and I'll make the decision to go electric after a good test drive when these come out.
Folks, if you like cars, your car is your Personal Rollercoaster. You need to decide what you like best: Is it the old wooden roller coaster that thrashes you and throws you around, or is it the new metal coaster with nylon wheels that pulls some serious G's....
You decide.
Imagine Wizard shop having 5-7-10 of these battery packs lowered and scattered around for replacement BPCM's or cells and for Wizard it would be no-brainer to fix EV-s by removing the packs, opening them up, going through the battery elements and wiring and pinpointing the issues. Claiming, that yep, no problem, we can replace this piece and you can pick up your vehicle tomorrow. Thank you very much!
Kind of like the Batteries+ stores concept.
It is not as easy. You may notice that even in household use, it is not recommended to mix old and new batteries.
I'd suspect that is a bit an issue with cells in EV's as well, when they have to be finely balanced to properly perform
It's an economy of scale thing to have an employee do that work - disassemble, catalog and track, evaluate, electrically exercise, and grade individual component cells. IF the physical shape of the component cells were consistent it could be possible to automate some of that work at scale and become very productive. Right now it's hands-on work in the early days of a re-imagined energy medium.
@@raygunsforronnie847 Interesting this does not happen with powertool batteries. One would think there would be small shops everywhere (like phone screen replacement/repair shops) that would be renewing li-ion batteries left and right. But not
@@dmitripogosian5084 Near me there are 2 battery shops that rebuild power tool batteries. One only does all new cells, the other will grade and match. I think the owner's kids do the grading after school. Lots of things are possible but it takes a market for the product or service to make those viable.
Love your thoughtful approach to cars... and life, Wizard.
I love my EV. We own a BYD in Australia. It's hassle free driving and free to charge on our solar panels. Embrace the change folks!!!
I live 140 kms north from the arctic circle. Would be able to charge ev from our house, but the pricing, range in wintertime is awful. Might wait a while still.
@@IkeVMAX4 Yeah cold weather batteries are an unsolved puzzle. I think the solution at the moment is battery heaters to keep them warm, so long as the car is plugged in. But if you have to park outside in the snow it's a problem.
Wizard you are a great man! Thanks for this information about EV’s. I’ve watched your analysis of Hoovie’s cars for years. This video is full of some great factually correct gems!
Interesting video. I'd prefer a hybrid until EVs get better. My dad had one and he loved it. My nephew still drives that car. Remember: Don't let the old man in, Mr. Wizard!
I am like you Wizard, neither for nor against EVs. That being said with the current issues with battery density, support infrastructure, etc I feel hybrids are a good stepping stone. In addition to that I personally likely won't ever own an EV, then again being my own mechanic I much prefer owning things form the 00s and older. The newest I've owned thus-far is a 96 and I'm perfectly happy to keep it that way.
Thats totally fair. Most people who dont give a shit about cars though will warm to the idea of owning an EV. although not quite ready fot everyone in the US, there will come a time when mass EV adoption will take off.
Nitpicking, but batteries are measured in kilowatt hours, not just kilowatts. A watt is a rate, not a unit of power. You have to multiply it by time to get a unit of power.
Not to nitpick, but a kilowatt hour is a measure of work, not a measure of power. A watt by itself is indeed a measure of power, and it is how horsepower is measured in cars around the world that use the metric system.
A watt is a rate of power, multiply it by time and you have a unit of energy.
I came through Newton a few years back towing my trailer with a wrecked Nissan LEAF to build a custom EV conversion and met you and got some t-shirts. If you need any help with that HV battery let me know! I'll come help you free of charge.