Destiny of the Daleks: This classic Dalek story is not very good
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- Опубліковано 4 вер 2024
- Not even Douglas Adams could save this one... yes, it's Destiny of the Daleks. Loved by some, loathed by others. I enjoy some aspects of this story, but overall it falls straight to the bottom of my classic Dalek stories ranking, simply because there is no other classic Dalek story that I would rank lower than Destiny of the Daleks. No amount of fabulous Movellans, pink scarfs or illogical pink elephants can stop this episode from sitting at the bottom of the Classic Who Dalek episode pile.
All footage and music is the property of the BBC.
I'll be forever grateful to this one for teaching an 8 yr old me what concrete is made of.
The introduction of Romana II is the biggest highlight for many people, me included
Destiny has a special place in my heart. It’s so bad it’s good
Probably my earliest memory of Who. Davros' web ridden hand waving into life
you can't believe how exciting it was for a 9 year old to have a new Dalek story in 4 years
As Steven Moffat once said, there isn't a great Douglas Adams era of Doctor Who. The great Douglas Adams era is four episodes called City of Death.
Isn't that the same thing? :P
@@minicle426 no
Is that the one with the flying speedboats?
Rubbish. The public adored Doctor ho until JNT began his tenure. Look at the viewing figures.
And the other one Shada.
Watched Destiny back the other day. When it first aired I was 10 and thought it was great. Davros moving is the worst bit for me but as a 10 year old I didn't notice. Genesis is the best Dalek story IMHO.
I actually like this adventure with all it's faults and also the writing of Douglas Adams made it an absolute gem of a story. This is a thumbs up from me.
My favourite bit is when the Daleks burst through the wall and start shouting at Romana to 'Do a poo, do a poo'
That bit scared me. I think it was “Do not poo” which is a Dalek way to say “fear not, dear lady”
It was fortunate for the BBC that at the time of its original transmission, 1-22nd September 1979, ITV was off the air due to strikes.
Destiny of the Daleks had 14-16 million viewers mainly because of this. No Corrie or Buck Rogers to compete with.
the big mistake they made with this one is referring to the daleks as robots and once being organic life. They did the same to the cybermen and it made no sense lol
What about the Dalek gun sound effect. I think the dalek gun sound used in Destiny of the Daleks was the perfect sound for any classic (possibly modern) Dalek gun sound effect
You clearly weren't born. 10 million people loved it. Best loved Dalek Story.
The only reason why the viewing figures were so high is because ITV were on strike when Destiny aired
It's a shame that it's the highest viewed Dalek episode on transmission, because it perpetuated the misconception that Daleks are robots that continues to this day
Destiny might be most viewed but Genesis, Remembrance, Dalek and Parting of the Ways are far better loved and more deserving of it too
@@darlig.ulv.bakhjerne You're just a revisionist who takes everything written in DWM as gospel. Season 17's viewing figures remained high even when ITV resumed transmission in October 1979. The series was transmitted until mid January 1980.
@@Quietstormusic doesn't change the fact that Destiny is ass
Shoddy props, the worst Davros, Tom phoning it in, crappy 'Skaro' sets/locations, calling Daleks robots, extras who look bored by their own extermination, silly Movellans, dumb Douglas Adams jokes that don't belong in a Dalek story, I could go on
One of the others you didn't mention was when the daleks came crashing through the wall and shout do not move about 10 times to Romana.
That scared the crap out of me as a child the first time I saw the episode.
As an adult, it goes on far too long.
The script isn't entirely Adams's fault. Terry Nation's script was basically just The Daleks copied with a different title, which he'd already done once (Planet), so Douglas had to rewrite almost the entire thing, hence the humour. In fact, this is the last Terry Nation Dalek script, and you can see why they didn't use him again...
Agreed, I'm not blaming Adams for the lacklustre script, and I recognise that he probably thought he was improving the story by adding the humour - after all, I suppose if you interpret this episode as a 'comedy', then it's perfectly enjoyable, just like Eve of the Daleks. But if you try to take the episode seriously, the humour undermines the threat of the Daleks and removes any tension. I think Adam's biggest mistake was adding in jokes at the expense of the Daleks themselves. Eve of the Daleks may have been silly, but it's jokes were often circumstantial and it didn't make fun of the Daleks themselves. Destiny commits the cardinal sin of making the Daleks look like a joke in their own story, I've seen Doctor Who parodies that treat the Daleks with more respect. If Adams had kept his jokes situational - like the quip about how the universe started, or the 'Nelly is an Elephant...' bit - and removed the lines that make mockery of the Daleks, then it would have been a much better episode
The reason Terry Nation didn’t come back after this episode was because he moved to America in 1980
If Adams writes basically the whole thing, it's Adams' fault.
I once watched Genesis and Destiny a week apart, and the difference is telling, especially Davros. But Destiny in isolation is fun, like the Adam West Batmans.
There are two good Dalek stories here.
Firstly, a light-hearted pulpy romp by Douglas Adams, more similar to some of the 60s stories in tone. "if you're the superior race, why don't you come after me" is genuinely great. These scenes are quite fun.
There is also a grim Nazi/Cold War allegory by Terry Nation, where the Daleks execute hostages unless the Doctor Surrenders. Very good, dramatic stuff that's similar to Genesis and Invasion of Earth...
But ramming them together just makes an absolute car crash and everyone involved gets whiplash
Okay, first off, THANK YOU for being for a female doctor, I like your videos anyway but THAT alone earns you a sub! Good on you!
You asked for our gripes on this story. You highlighted most of them but...
The extras playing the prisoners, they're acting is awful. Two scenes that stand out, when the daleks are executing them one by one, they just seem so blank and wooden. And when they get shot they don't react at all, compare that to Genesis when the dalek's victims were screaming in agony every time. Plus some even seem to brace themselves to hit the floor...despite being supposedly dead. The other one? The attack on the Movellan ship. It's so awkward and stilted it's actually funny to watch.
The climax of episode one. In the 60's when a person was spotted by a dalek, if they weren't instantly gunned down, the dalek would very quickly make use of them. In this scene the daleks yell "do not move" like 20 times (I lost count). Honestly there's a lot of needless repetition in the dalek lines in Destiny. Like when the suicide daleks are almost singing with how often they repeat davros's orders. "Seek, locate, do not deviate"
You mentioned Davros shouting his orders a lot. And it always bothered me why these daleks seemed to need to be told everything twice. I'd reason it's meant to highlight they're overreliance on logic. They are basically dumb machines and a bit slow on the responce...but since that's not shown anywhere in the story itself?....
Highly underrated story for me
Why not mention that One Dalek prop that was the only Genesis Dalek in the episode that was actually great, Regardless of the other daleks being cheap and flimsy. (That dalek is completely Gunmetal Gray with black Hemispheres and he has a gray neck film compared to the normal black neck on the dalek and the duct tape you see on the right side of the dalek skirt which to me, It shows that the dalek is battle-worn and has experienced much in the dalek empire)
That’s a metal strip so that the magnet in the bomb can be attached to it.
While I like the Movellans, imagine if they had been swapped out, and the enemy the Daleks were fighting instead turned out to be the Cybermen..? I liked the bit where, during one of Darvos' rants, if you look closely (and it was probably a mistake), you can (blink and you'll miss it) see one of the background Daleks appearing to (somehow) 'shrug', which was funny.
'Rock, Paper, Scissors' is not just luck. The world's best players use a lot of strategy and judgement.
But in the context of the episode its being played by emotionless robots with no sense of intuition
Derren Brown does a great rock, paper, scissors segment with Millwall fans where he always wins.
@@dalekbumps I think it works. It's to show they're logical.
@@10thdoctor15 But how does logic make them both choose the same thing every single time? That's luck, not logic. A better metaphor would have been to use chess as the example
@@dalekbumpsI think if it not as flips but as a table lookup, they have the same programming so they run the same list, they can't do random. For a kid it made sense. 😂🎉❤
My argument was they hadn’t completely worked out Tom Bakers Doctor in Genesis, so he’s a lot more serious and stoic. Destiny 4th Doctor is more dismissive and trivial, but that was what Tom Baker had transformed him into by this point in basically all episodes
When I was a kid, I remember thinking the Movellans's ship and their hand energy pistols being pretty cool.
I’m sort of 50/50 on Destiny it’s bad but it still has decent things that I like about it. I’d personally say it’s not as bad as Day of the Daleks. That episode was good but didn’t really need the Daleks. The Daleks felt like an extra to the story, thrown in at the last minute and you can tell there are only three of the props.
I also like that Destiny had the best amount of Dalek variation in the props. Some were a slightly different shade of grey, others had black slated, some had the two toned base etc. pretty cool 😎. The only thing I’ll say that deeply effects Destiny is Davros, he’s very forgettable in this story mainly due to him being overshadowed by the brilliance of Michael Wisher xx
I don't get it - they had day of the daleks props, planet of the daleks props, Genesis of the daleks props...... in the space of say 4 years how did these get so bad? Why are they all painted different colors? When in the one preceeding it (except death to the daleks) they were all the same? Which episodes did these Dalek props come from?
Destiny of the Daleks is Awesome and Spectacular and great
Destiny of the Daleks was my first Dalek story that I have watched before I had gotten hooked up on watching any other Doctor Who story from both Classic and New era but I did enjoy it, even though I do understand that this story is not a very good Dalek story from the Classic Doctor Who era but I still like and enjoy it as well.
There are a lot of people who like this episode because they're nostalgic for it, which is fair enough - a similar phenomenon happened with Revenge of the Cybermen, which is extremely popular due to the fact that it was one of the first home media releases, despite the fact that the episode itself has serious flaws
@@dalekbumps To be honest.... "Revenge of The Cybermen" wasn't that bad of Cybermen episode in my opinion. I actually kinda like it. At least "Planet of The Daleks" did so much better than "Destiny of The Daleks".
Thanks,this review was very interesting and well done,particularly for me as I've never seen this one. Genesis of the Daleks was the last classic series Dalek story I saw (minus part 2 because we weren't at home to see it) when originally broadcast,Day of the Daleks having been the first,plus the two films starring the legendary Peter Cushing. We also saw Frontier in Space,Planet of the Daleks and Death to the Daleks,but the only classic series Dalek story I've seen this side of Genesis of the Daleks was Revelation of the Daleks when they re-showed one story from each of the then seven Doctors* in their original weekly episodes (but not on Saturdays,I think it was early evenings on Fridays instead) on BBC2 in early 1992 and early 1993. In the middle of the 1993 re-showings I had to have a hospital operation and spent three weeks at home recuperating on medical advice - during that time I read all the unread books I could find on my bookshelves,including Douglas Adams's book Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency.
Revenge of the Cybermen was the only classic Cyberman story I saw on TV back then in the 70s,but I read the novelisations of several of the ones from the 60s around then; I didn't dislike it at all but yes it did have a flaw or two!
*The Time Meddler,the Mind Robber,the Sea Devils (early 1992),then the Daemons,Genesis of the Daleks,the Caves of Androzani,Revelation of the Daleks and I can't fathom from reading synopses whether the last one was Battlefield or Survival but I do remember Nicholas Cortney making a return appearance as Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart in it.
So,two Jon Pertwee stories but one for all the rest. They also re-showed Planet of the Daleks around the 30th anniversary in November 1993.
@@dalekbumps Following Genesis (best Dr Who story if all time) certainly doesnt help it tbf.
@@duncankilburn7612 I raise you Power of.
I wonder if we'll get a Lost Stories release of this from Big Finish without all the edits done by Adams.
Would be a good way to give Gooderson a second chance.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Romana's awful regeneration! I still don't understand what that was all about...
Balls it's a great regeneration. Tom sending the belly dancer away is iconic.
I took Romana's ability to try out random bodies way too seriously when I was a kid, but now I love how totally bonkers it was.
The Dalek masterpiece that never was.
A disastrous sequel to a masterpiece
I really have no problems with this episode and actually love the hell out of it. I saw it when it first aired. I especially loved the androids. Really wish they had done more with them. Very cool design. Of course it might be the first time they encountered beings with actual hands and not loungers which accounts for their ability to be vulnerable to somebody grabbing their power pack
The elephant in the room is, why would they bring back Davros? He was killed centuries ago. When World War II started, we didn't dig up Horatio Nelson to help us out.
HOT TAKE: i think genesis of the daleks is the worst doctor who episode
That's certainly an interesting take, what don't you like about it?
I didn't like the character of davros he was the final nail in the coffin for the dalek for the rest of the classic series but i like the performance from all the the davros actors and i don't think you should explain the daleks backstory it should have been left for interpretation
@@cyberdalekmorton4685 I think Genesis is severely overrated. There's a scene with the Doctor and Harry running the gauntlet which looks something out of The Goodies. Sarah Jane survives machine gun fire at point blank range; later she singularly fails to die of radiation poisoning. I was 12 at the time of broadcast, and even then I knew the "Do I have the right?" speech really meant, "We can't kill our cash cow!" The sets are all horrible, and the first ever Dalek was as advanced as they get - it would be like the Doctor calling on Benz in 1886 to discover the first car was a Porsche Taycan saloon.
5:28 In my opinion, I don't think you were quite harsh at all. I remember first seeing that story as one of the very first few Dalek stories Ive ever seen and felt ripped off and not in a good way, And I never saw Genesis of the Daleks back then.
Did Michael Wisher not have to move his chair with his feet?
If he did, then it comes across much better than it does in Destiny
No, he had some trained rabbits to do that. :P
Actually, Davros' costume as well as the Daleks were on a touring Doctor Who show. The BBC didn't have the money to remake the Dalek props, so they requested the props back from the tour, explaining why all of the Daleks and Davros costumes are damaged.
Gooderson was bigger than Wisher, and so he didnt fit into any of the costumes.
Wisher's mask originally didn't have a mouthpiece, but one was added with latex for the exhibition...Gooderson then had to wear this too small, deteriorating, modified mask.
Also, you'll notice he's not wearing the Davros glove. His hand has make-up and fake nails...His hands were too big for that as well!
Destiny is a good 4th Doctor/Romana II story, not the greatest Dalek story but it has its moments.
yeh i brought it on video when it came out in about 1993 and hadent seen it since it was made when i was 9 in 79 and couldnt wait to see it again and was thrilled the bbc had released it on video and was well gutted that michael wisher wasent the davros as i always thought he was in this and it was one hell of a dissapointment
Adams to blame for me and Daleks are clearly cyborgs not robots.
Destiny does however introduced my all time favourite Dalek livery, Grey and Black. Yes Resurrection did it better...
I've been trying to find this story after just watching Genesis of the Daleks for the first time and was like, wait Davros dies, how does he come back then?
Basically he has a life support system in his chair that puts him in suspended animation while it repairs his body
love these videos man! keep it up
It is nice that gooderson returned for that Davros rises trailer short at least
The problem is that most of the modern reviews are done by people that didn't grow up watching Classic Who
I wasn't born when this episode aired, true, but I did grow up watching Classic Who, including this story
It's not a problem that people can look at the episode with a critical eye, in fact if you need to feel childhood nostalgia for something in order to give it a good review then that implies there's a problem with the thing itself
@@dalekbumps 😂
@@josephperkins4857 that's gatekeeping. If the problem with the episode is that it can't be appreciated unless you grew up with it, that's a glaring problem.
I rewatched this yesterday on the new Blu-Ray release. For me this story has fond memories of being the first story I watched in colour on its original release. It’s not without it’s flaws. It’s a shame the Daleks were used more as a sideline to Davros and also it’s noticeable with the props there are a lot of issues when they could have had a radically makeover seeing as it was a five break between this and Genesis. I like the fact that for the first time we meet another race hell bent on Universal domination second only to the Daleks. Just wondering if Terry Nation had overall say if the story would have been different. Still I can think of far worse stories than Destiny but for me it would be mid to low ranking.
Criticising the Dalek props is really low-hanging fruit considering how miserly the BBC were about giving the show anything like a practical budget.
My cousin and uncle built a Tom Baker era Dalek out of plywood and an old shopping trolley which is pretty much the materials the BBC had to make do with. It still cost around four hundred pounds which would have been the equivalent of a fifth to a sixth of the budget of a whole episode in the 70s. (I believed in 1963, an episode got the equivalent of £2000 and it hadn't risen by much ten years later)
That's for one Dalek.
I agree that the state that the Daleks were in was the fault of the higher-ups at the BBC and not the production team, but regardless of whose fault it is the end result is still shoddy. And it's not like Destiny of the Daleks had a minimal budget - it was aired during one of the heights of Doctor Who's viewership, and they had enough budget for multiple interior sets and a full-size Movellan ship exterior set, so I fail to see why funding could not have been allocated to restore the props. They wouldn't have needed to make new ones from scratch - they could have just restored the ones they had. The ironic thing is, they did just that only a few years later, giving us the iconic 80s Dalek look we see in Five Doctors, Resurrrection and Revelation. It's just unfortunate that they were only prompted to do that restoration after realising how truly awful the props looked on-screen in Destiny
@@dalekbumps
I believe the show got a cash injection at that point... Before being ruthlessly slashed...
Notably, the TARDIS console is refurbished in the Five Doctors after being neglected for nearly a decade. Like the Dalek props, the BBC's attitude seemed to be that if something was breaking down but still functional; it didn't need replacing. My workplace has a similar attitude.
You are right though that the presence of duck tape on the Daleks, slats visibly flaking off and deep scratches is very shoddy. Even a cheap coat of paint could have made a big difference.
1:49 I like what you did there lol :D
This was my first episode of Classic Who (I'd ordered Genesis, but Lovefilm sent me this instead) and I thought it was bloody awful. It's got really wonky effects, the Doctor doesn't seem to actually give a damn about what's going on, and it's TERRIBLY paced. Davros comes across as a bit of a loser here too. THIS is meant to be the same guy as the manipulative and sinister scientist that once built a bomb that would cause the whole of reality to evaporate?
Oh, and on the subject of being sent the wrong DVDs from Lovefilm, I was once sent Remembrance of the Daleks when I'd ordered The Rebel Flesh and The Almost People.
Damn, that's heavy. Ordering Genesis of the Daleks and receiving Destiny of the Daleks is like ordering hot buttered toast and being served dry stale bread
@@dalekbumps True, but they made up for it by sending him the *Masterpiece* that is Remembrance of the Daleks later!
I tend to be quite defensive of this story, largely because it was amongst the first Dalek stories I remember watching on VHS. I get that it's very silly in various places, and the Dalek props have seen better days, but I still regard it as a good basic adventure tale. Also, I feel that Davros' role in this story doesn't undermine the Daleks so much as he would increasingly do in the 1980s. Although the Daleks claim that they'll obey him, I am of the impression that they would exterminate him the exact moment after he reprogrammed their computers for them! 😁
I personally enjoy destiny because despite its flaws, it still has many good elements to enjoy, particularly the ship, the robot/sci-fi elements and the Romana/Doctor relationship. We’ve definitely got worse stories than this in classic Who.
I loved it as a kid, but in hindsight I can see why it is criticised. The thing that puzzles me most is, how did the Daleks get to Skaro without a spaceship and why do they need to wait so long for one to pick them up? The Movellans seem to have no problem landing a ship in Skaro.
I rewatched this the other day and I found that when I tried to not noticed them or overlook some of them it made it more enjoyable. I definatley think that the props let it down and some of the other issues you mentioned do as well. the dalek bombers do make sense because its illogical, Davros decided the stragey and because its "impossible" for the movellans and daleks it makes it more justifable. However I had thought why dont they plant the exposives onto the ship? It would make far more sense from a logic perspective, I know the problem then is why would the daleks strap it to themselves and I cant answer that, convinence perhaps lol. Then the doctor would blow them up before they got there. Then they capture Davros and the day is saved.
I did have a few other thoughts, I think it would have been interesting to see a shortish story between destiny and ressurection. Something where the Movellans had developed their virus and the fleets were locked or something. I thought of that idea whilst writing this and I thought it could be neat if it were expanded on, not nessary but like sandwich filling lol. I think it would also be interesting if they used the death colour scheme too, it would help set up a kind of continuity in then the storys occured because I think its a bit all over the place before ressurection
at 5:10 you say that its a logical scrip error when the daleks say self sacrifice is illigical, but then do it later, but that was the reason they retreived davros, the whole stalemate with the movellons was because both their battle computers relied on logic, so the plan was to get davros to reprogram the dalek battle computer to do illogical things, davros just chose the self sacrifice route
If anything that exposes an even further issue with the script, in that the Daleks are not written right. They had always been depicted as capable of thinking around problems in early Classic Who - they're powerful, intelligent beings, not just mindless tanks. Yet at some point prior to the writing of Destiny of the Daleks, Terry Nation decided that the Daleks were just a generic race of robots that were helpless unless Davros was there to make decisions for them. It goes against everything the Daleks had been for the entire 60s and early 70s
@@dalekbumps @voltran7677 The Daleks need their battle computer rewrote properly, they can't risk such a huge loss without the best mind they can get. Self-sacrifice is illogical for the Doctor, who they see as the mastermind, the no.1, not for the Daleks who operate by a hierarchy and for their larger plans. They self-sacrificed in previous episodes.
I enjoyed the Destiny of the Daleks, sure not the best but not the worst.
I have gone out of my way to watch all Dalek stories with exception to the Evil of Daleks as that isn't on Britbox.
The worst sadly is, The Chase. It was a poor story that ended up with the Daleks Time Machine being destroyed VERY easily at the end of it
I have a massive soft spot for the chase
If I remember correctly, doesn’t Davros’s life support systems just begin to switch on and not long after he just HAPPENS to run into the doctor in a corridor for the first time in years ?
What are the chances this all happens like clockwork ??
Definitely could have made this story a little more realistic / interesting when it came to this plot etc.
I watch UA-cam on my phone and can barely hear you when I'm watching it indoors but other than that love your channel and all your doctor who vids keep it up
Destiny of the Daleks was the first classic Dalek story & the 2nd classic who story I saw when I bought the DVD over 10 years ago.
So pretty much the bar was set low when experiencing the rest of classic who.
A lot of Daleks doing little jumps in that story! What was with that??!? Were they having trouble moving the props or something?
There was one Dalek who did a little jump in the first Dalek film. The story goes that operator stood on a nail which made him jump and caused the prop to move upwards.
I could overlook this sort of thing once, but what was going on with so many of them doing it in Destiny???
Rock paper scissors has intense strategy mate. Indeed you can win almost twice as often against a random opponent using the right methodology.
It’s real bad but I just love Romana’s outfit, also even if it was good it just couldn’t compare to genesis
Great review
Destiny is a heavily flawed mess, with some great moments of brilliance and some moments of idiocy (Daleks aren’t Robots, seriously Douglas, Terry explained it for you, and the two characters who SHOULD KNOW THIS EXPRESS IT). It is an enjoyable story, and nostalgic to me, but compared to its superior older sibling, it will always be in its shadow.
Overly harsh on a beloved Dalek story loved by many fans, with many great moments.
And most Doctor Who fans would have known the story of Genesis of the Daleks by heart, having repeatedly listened to it on vinyl after that record has released in 1978!
Yeah I suppose I should make a follow-up video to this at some point, I probably wouldn't be as harsh as this now
Even so, I still consider Destiny of the Daleks to be the weakest Classic Who Dalek story. It has a lot of things to like in the episode, like Romana and the Movellans, but Tom Baker isn't at his best in this episode and the acting of the extras and the raggedy Davros mask make it seem like a sub-par production compared to other Doctor Who stories of the era, or even earlier Pertwee stories. There's obviously a lot of nostalgia for this story which is understandable, and I have warmed to it more in recent years, but it's still among the weaker Dalek stories overall
Why everybody hates destiny of the daleks I thought it was good story
I think the retcons made to this story in the War of the Daleks novel make things a little more interesting, such as terraforming another planet into a replica of Skaro and setting in stone a set of events that lead into Rememberance and the idea that the Daleks created the Movellans and faked a conflict with them to look weak in front of Davros. They definitely make this story more tolerable to me
My issue with War of the Daleks is that it basically rewrites the entire backstory of Destiny of the Daleks and the 80s Dalek stories, and I find the ideas presented in the book to be lacklustre. The idea that the entire Movellan War was falsified by the Daleks makes no sense to me at all, and it seems like whoever wrote the book was just upset that the Daleks are on the back-foot for a lot of their stories post-Genesis and wanted to make them seem more powerful. You are right in that the ideas presented for Destiny of the Daleks are interesting, but I prefer to just take the episodes as they are and largely ignore War of the Daleks for the most part. It's a decent attempt to rewrite Dalek history with retcons but I don't consider it canon, not least because Big Finish also seems to adopt the same policy of respectfully ignoring War of the Daleks. Dalek Universe, for example, completely contradicts War of the Daleks on almost every level, and I much prefer the story of Dalek Universe, and that's just one example. Terror Firma also wouldn't make sense if it was another planet that was destroyed in Remembrance instead of Skaro. I'll happily read War of the Daleks as a fun 'what-if' story, or like a snapshot of an alternate universe or something, but it's difficult to reconcile it with later works involving the Movellans, the Dalek Civil War or the post-Remembrance era.
@@dalekbumps it seems like I'm a rare War enjoyer then haha, also I don't think it majorly retcons every 80s Dalek story, Revelation is just that Davros did his own thing with wanting to make a new race of Daleks loyal to him instead of going off and destroying Skaro (Antalin) earlier. I have a Dalek story that I wanna make a reality one day that majorly retcons a bunch of stuff from Moffat era Dalek stories so I guess that's why I like the novel
Wasn't a fan of destiny of the Daleks wen I first watched it but I like romana 2 in this being her first episode newly regenerated. I actually visited where destiny was filmed at whinspit quarry the caves they used for skara and romana being captured and put to work inthe mines. Not the best story I got genesis of the Daleks aswell on dvd but haven't seen it yet. The caves at whinspit where this story was filmed are amazing well worth seeing in dorset
I really..... REALLY... don't like it I did back then, but man this episode is So..SO.. unbearably..SLOW, poor gooderson. I prefer Genesis tbh
Still better than any of the current Doctor Who today..😉👍
Maybe not that good, but still 10 times better than any of the ' new Who'. The dreadlocked robots are quite fun.
It was as if David Gooderson done zero research into his character
It was like it was trying to be both “Death to the Daleks” and “Genesis of the Daleks” at the same time. Two great stories with vastly different tones and treatments of the Daleks.
I still enjoy it though and would watch it again unlike most of the episodes in Chibnall’s Doctor Who which are boring.
Awful plot and absolutely terrible dalek props
i do like the light grey colours of the daleks and there are parts of it i do enjoy but the production side of it is a utter mess, as you say the daleks props are in one of hell a state.
The writing for the Daleks is really off, they are made to be fully robotic and the doctor seems shocked to remember that the daleks are organic when he finds the kaled mutant.
The actress who plays the movellan agella in a fair number of scenes it stands out how bored she is.
Davros prop and mask
The Daleks lift up their shoulder sections, when moving. The obvious Vacuum filled dalek dummies(what happened to all the goon props from Planet and Genesis?
The Kaled bunker looks nothing like it was in genesis.
Daleks being carried by visible legs and hands pushing them.
Yet it do find its a good one to put on and just chill. That scene where the movellan commander bitch slaps one of the prisoners is priceless.
Ery under rated story. Confirm the images of the daleks to be battered daleks sent to rescue their creator and you can forgive the state they are in.
every time i see the dreadlocks I always think of Rick James, highly appropriate of course given the time period
I think Movellan battery pack aside it's one of the best. Great central idea, iconic Dalek reveal. Lalla really sells the Idea of being frightened by the Daleks. The pretty people being equally monstrous and locked into a logic war is brilliant. I couldn't disagree with this more.
Listen, this is my favorite episode.
I love how the old mask makes Davros look like he's decaying and deformed.
I love how beaten up these daleks are, showing that they are the battle damaged Movelen war veterans, sent back to Skaro from the front. And this story does something I wish more did, it uses different types of daleks, with an older grey unit commanding, and the new greenish grey units as footsoldiers, my favourite dalek color scheme until the renegade daleks.
This perfectly introduced the seeds of the dalek Civil War with davros's desscust at the Supreme Dalek's existence. The idea of the logical impass is fascinating.
As to the daleks being described as robots, it works here. These daleks are slaves to their internal computers, almost entirely devoid of their kaled nature, the final stage in dalek evolution without davros. Genesis is the story of the beginning, destiny is the story of the future. After their loss, the daleks learn to stop relying on their computers and cybernetics, which is why they are horrorfied by the cyborg imperial daleks. I would argue that this is the episode that sets up remembrance best.
I do think it might have been better with less Douglas Adam's, as his humor definitely hurts the story, which is why Terry Nation wasnt happy with it. but all and all, it's pretty good.
Oh, and I like this one better than Genesis of the Daleks and Resurrection of the Daleks, so there
Watch Derren Brown playing rock, paper, scissors. Might change your mind?
Shame that it introduces Romana II for the first time
I was 10 when Destiny was broadcast and I thought IMO it was marred by the return of Davros, and IMO Daleks work better lead by Emperor Daleks and or Supreme Daleks who are genuine and proper Daleks unlike Davros who is part man and part Dalek.
no, Destiny is the 2nd worse. 1st worse is Resurrection of the daleks - why? cause so many people overrate it to be one of the best. yes it's dark, but the plot is an absolute shambles.
at least the plot in Destiny makes sense and isn't full of 1000 plot holes
The issue isn't that a "female doctor doesn't work", it's that gender and race swapping characters for political reasons is ridiculous - and in many cases the intentions behind such decisions are malicious.
under normal circumstances, I agree that swapping the core attributes of a character for a remake or reboot is a cheap and tacky ploy, but in the case of Doctor Who the fad doesn't apply. The precedent for having a female Doctor has existed for decades, people talked about the possibility of a female Doctor in the '70s (with Dawn French being a popular choice according to newspapers from the time) and it's honestly baffling that we didn't get a female Doctor until the late 2010s. The unfortunate reality is that bigots online will bung the female Doctor in with other garbage Hollywood gossip when it's a completely distinct entity with it's own thing going on. In an ideal world, the Fifth Doctor would have been a woman and this pointless debate would be long behind us, but alas, here we are as a fandom debating the validity of a female incarnation of Doctor Who in the current year
I agree that this story is kinda bleh (though I disagree that it's the worst classic Dalek story), but (unless you count Shada) it's the definitely the second best story of Season 17.
I just love the line of look rocks
absolutely honesty on the female doctor not working is the issue of changing the gender of the doctor. I was used the idea when Tom Baker suggested it way back when. But with the current writing style of directors trying to write for a “modern audience” usually is code for really crappy writing coming. Personally I would’ve loved to of seen a spinoff series on Romana. I still wish she would return. Potentially as a spinoff, possibly working with Jack Harkness and torchwood. Since she was dealing with multiple universes with the gates at E space I would love to see an expansion into other universe for story content.
Agreed.
I have a lot of nostalgia renting old Dalek DVDs from my Library. My opinion is Day of the Daleks is the worst classic Dalek story only because recently bought and rewacthed the classic DW dalek stories and felt that one was a slog(than again I watched the special edition as a kid and watched the unedited version recently). I do find destiny bad but in more of a fun cheesy way especially with the premise being: robots can't play rock paper scissors.
This whole season was a bit of a mess.
Watched it Tonight... it is indeed Extremely Flawed, but, it is also still Plenty Fun enough to be a very watchable "B-Grade" Romp IMO!
It could certainly have done with Adams Reigning in his sense of Humour to prevent the Mood Whiplash it induces with the Grim Lore behind why Skaro is so Ruined, and the Genuinely Horrific Nazi Concentration Camp and SS "Retribution" Slaughter Allusions in Several Scenes, (Adams humour is just too light-hearted, Saward's utterly *Gallows* humour from Resurrection and Revelation is a much better fit for the Daleks, yes, like You, I am a big fan of Eric Saward as a Screenwriter, and, I think he is often underrated as a Script Editor, some of the Scripts that got plonked on his desk for him to Edit by Auntie during his tenure as Editor were *Bad* Fanfiction at best and had to be near totally Rewritten, so given the base Material he often had to rewrite from, he did a pretty stellar Job! he also got Robert Holmes back on board and all Who Fans need to thank him for that, IMO, as it gave us "Caves of Androzani" one of *the* Great Dr Who Stories, after all!) and It utterly boggles me why Terry Nation went against his own Lore (absent Mindedness?, just not giving a Hoot anymore? Sheer Spite as the result of a Blazing Row with Auntie? we may never know!) and made the Daleks pure Robot and forgot about the "Seething green Lump of pure Hatred" that is inside the "Tank", that really did Weaken the Daleks to a terrible Degree! It is indeed also let down by the many technical issues they had with the Dalek Props (such as the notable Wheelies that they pull when moving away! and let us not even return to Davros's Pedal-Car chair...) and indeed, the Bad Paint Job on the Dalek's does not work here where the Daleks are supposed to be at the peak of their Pomp, they should be Pristine and Gleaming like in "Day of the Daleks" , but, on the Flip Side, the Props being in such woeful condition worked *Brilliantly* in Resurrection (where the same Faded, Scratched, Dented, "junk" condition of the Props (which, apparently, was Re-Created as the props were supposedly Fresh off the Production Line!) just *sold* them as the Desperate Survivors of a catastrophic military Loss!) and had they been Repaired and Repainted Properly for Destiny, Resurrection may not have worked as well as the Props would have maybe been in "too good" a Condition had they Recreated the "Restored" look on the New Props rather than the "Junk" Look! ) , however, I will say the "Phoned in" Extra's Performances as the Slaves actually kind of Works, it does somewhat sell the fact that the People, are, Tragically, utterly Broken, and now view death as a relief...
Still, it is a Fun Enough "Take your Brain out and Enjoy the Exterminations" B-Grade Adventure, and is a Vital chapter in the Davros Saga to Introduce the Dalek-Movellan War, and Davros being Frozen, which are at the core of the events in the Stone Cold Classic that is Resurrection of the Daleks, and, good Point, it did start the Updating path on the Dalek Extermination Effect that lead the the Iconic "Remembrance" one that is still used to this Day, and there is a line from Davros about upgrading the Daleks with new Weapons of Incredible Power that can be Interpreted as the first Seeds of the Idea that lead to the Special Weapons Dalek! It is a Fun enough Watch, but... it is *Far* from a classic. Agreed.
However, given that, although to Swap from one "Metal Meanie" to another, I also Enjoy Revenge of the Cybermen and Silver Nemesis, and consider Attack of the Cybermen to be Criminally Underrated.... what do I know! maybe I am more of a Rolykin than I like to think!
Note: Nu-Who Rant Removed as we are not going to see Eyestalk to Eyestalk on it at all and I don't think the Universe can afford another Renegades Vs Imperials Spat!
Douglas Adams wrote it, not Nation.
@@smartgenes1 So was Nation involved at all? or was it all just Adams?
A poor story, but the Movellans were sort of interesting.
Romana isn't a female Doctor... she's a female Romana.
My feeling on Destiny is that it is badly written, performed and executed. But it is not the worst Dalek story primarily because it’s got fun and it’s short. That’s not great praise but much better than planet of the Dalek which is just long and boring
I put it about on par with Resurrection and Revelation as the worst of the Classic Who Dalek stories, probably followed by Death to the Daleks. The idea of the Daleks having to fight another logically thinking race is interesting. It's a shame the props are so tired and the operation of them is not so smooth, but I can forgive that for the story.
I always thought Revelation a rather fantastic little story.
To each, their own I suppose, I find Resurrecrion and Revelation to be among the most enjoyable classic Dalek stories, Eric Saward's wit and dry humour (not to mention the extensive body counts) make those episodes really fun
I think if it wasn't for the Mechonoids The Chase would be pretty low down on my list.I still think Steven going back for his teddy bear just about takes the cake.
The serial where the Daleks first did "comedy"
One Dalek couldn't do basic maths
One Dalek was even more homicidal than any other Dalek
The Dalek leader was like "WTF did I do to get these two idiots on my team"
Come on. It's got awful acting, not-even-wrong science, poor pacing, a dull plot, horrible effects, hideous set design and ridiculous costumes. What more do you want?
Well I love it.
"The idea that a female Doctor couldn't work is laughable." Hold on a minute there. You've completely and utterly missed the point of why people objected to it, as was sadly the case with 99 percent of people who were for a female Doctor, because they were too busy priding themselves on not being the sexist fans, to actually listen. Please as a subscriber take the time to read this and don't just do the arrogant Mr Tardis official fandom crap of writing people off and assuming that we aren't as enlightened as you. Not to sound arrogant but I'd wager I like far more forms of female led and created entertainment than you.
It's NOT that a woman can't play a hero or even a hero like the Doctor. It's that specifically the Doctor in that continuity would jar if he was turned into a woman. In classic who, all of the Doctors were meant to be the same person under the new face. Regeneration in the original TRUE DW series 1963-1989 wasn't where he became a completely different person except for the memories like in New Who which is an interpretation I despise (as it would seem do most Who fans hence why Tennant's I don't want to go crap was reviled.)
Regeneration in classic who is basically like an advanced form of healing. His body breaks down and then repairs itself, and in doing so it changes. It rebuilds itself from scratch, and his outer persona gets shaken up a bit. However his core persona is exactly the same, his consciousness is the same, his memories etc. All of the Doctors are different aspects of the same person, NOT 7 different people.
This is always how people viewed it in fandom, the show itself, even the most prominent people involved throughout classic who, I can provide quotes from Terrance Dicks, Robert Holmes, Terry Nation himself and every actor to play the Doctor from Troughton on to back this up. They were all of the mindset that you get someone who in some ways will make it their own, but not so much you could never imagine it was still Hartnell under there. IE Pertwee might be more physical and fancy than Hartnell, but he never does anything you couldn't imagine Hartnell wouldn't, he is still the old professor, even Davison still played it as an old man in a young man's body.
Now New Who was controversial because from the start it tossed out much of the Doctors character, by doing things like having him fall in love with Rose. However it got away with that from the public because of the long hiatus. IE Eccelston was the first Doctor certain people saw. However even then New Who followed this idea despite what it said. Eccelston-Capaldi, may not be believable as the classic era Doctors, but they are still believable as being the same characters as each other. Ultimately there is no point in regeneration if it's not the same character, as if you do that, the Doctor is a title not a character. Also the core character helps viewers carry on when one Doctor leaves.
A gender change meanwhile ultimately is a change too far. Not because "oh it's wrong to change gender." Simply because it's hard to imagine it's still Hartnell or for new fans Eccelston under the new face if it's a woman. Gender is a huge thing to change, hence why real life trans people view it as such a big change in their lives, one that if they can't get, it can be catastrophic.
With this in mind tell me how is a woman going to play it? As a man who wants to become a woman, well no, that's not how the Doctor was portrayed. (Also in the current climate I'd argue that making the regeneration a clumsy metaphor for a sex change is bad for trans people as you're giving them a character then taking it away when the Doctor morphs back into a male.) As a feminine character like how Romana is portrayed in this? Well no that would jar too much with the past Doctors who were male in terms of how they dressed, looked etc. It's hard to imagine it's still Hartnell or Eccelston under there if she's putting on lipstick and wearing dresses. Does she play it as a completely genderless character? Again no that's going to jar as the Doctor wasn't like that either.
Ultimately Jodie fell into ALL of these problems, she herself said she didn't take anything from the others before her, because in her mind they were just men, and she also didn't know whether to make it feminine or genderless hence her performance being all over the place and in the end a stock Doctor. Also if you change something as big as his gender then there is the worry that if that can be changed anything can, destroying his core character. For instance if I wanted to make my next Doctor a character that sleeps around, or someone who reveals their origins, you can't say "oh that's not something the Doctor would do" because after a female Doctor the response is "well if he can change from Hartnell to Jodie Whittaker, why not?" Where as if you say he can change from Hartnell to Pertwee or even Davison I can still bring up all the ways in which they are similar, asexuality, dress sense (all may wear different clothes, but all have a similar theme, IE elaborate clothing, Edwardian/Victorian era clothing, etc) Again the female Doctor DID run into this problem. The Timeless Children came about as a result of this we can do anything now that we have opened the role up to anybody, which unravelled his entire character.
The only way a female Doctor could work, is if it were a remake, but even then I wouldn't really be interested because I'm interested in new female heroes, not novelty versions of male heroes.
So yes please remember this before you write us off as NOT MY DOCTOR types. I am 100 percent opposed to a female Doctor, now more than ever as every single one of my worst fears was realised by Jodie, and I don't need told that "oh see a women can play the hero because Romana did it." I'm about to premiere a female led series on my youtube channel, that I've paid an actress to read out, an artist to illustrate whilst you are focusing entirely on a male led series.
I don't mean to be bitchy here. I do still support your channel and recommended it on a podcast about the Daleks, but I feel this is a bad attitude in fandom that needs called out.
Thanks for supporting the channel, and I did read the whole thing as I do with all my comments, I respect your opinion
However, I disagree with your assertion that every regeneration in Classic Who has the core persona of the Doctor remaining the same, in fact I'd argue it's the exact opposite. Each and every regeneration in Classic Who and New Who presented us with a fundamentally different character. Troughton to Pertwee is a great example. The former is an impish vagrant who hides his devious intelligence beneath a comical facade, who believes that there are forces in the universe that must be fought and vanquished. The latter, however, is a stoic and evasive man with a short temper and an apparent respect for hierarchy that his predecessor lacked, who hated not being taken seriously and often became angry when confronted with ignorance or stupidity. The Three Doctors is a perfect illustration of how fundamentally different these two characters are. The Fourth Doctor is likewise very different from the Third Doctor, as illustrated in Robot when he dumps his former incarnation's life and job and runs away. The Fifth Doctor is at heart indecisive, affable and meek, very different from the First and Third Doctors. By the time the Sixth and Seventh Doctors come along, one being a self-confident, arrogant showman and the other being a scheming, duplicitous machiavellian, it's very difficult to argue that these are all fundamentally the same person. The huge juxtapositions between incarnations like Two and Three, Three and Four, Five and Six and basically any of them compared to Seven make it clear that these are different characters. The Third Doctor often did things that the Second, Fourth or Fifth Doctors would never dream of. The Second Doctor would be embarrassed at his Third and Fifth incarnation's lack of a sense of humour. The First Doctor would be shocked at his Fourth and Sixth incarnation's lack of social graces, and the Fourth Doctor and Seventh Doctor have a fundamentally different outlook on the philosophy of "Do I have the right?" with the former agonising over the decision to destroy a single chamber of Daleks and the latter setting up an elaborate scheme to ensure the annihilation of their planet. These aren't just slight differences in personality, there are fundamental differences in philosophy, methodology and motivation for each individual Doctor. The First Doctor is a stern grandfather, the Second Doctor is a silly wacky uncle. The Third Doctor cared a lot about his work for UNIT, which the Fourth Doctor immediately abandons. The Fifth Doctor acted like a gentleman but was actually quite catty, whereas the Sixth Doctor acted like a prat while underneath being kind and caring. And the Seventh Doctor is arguably the most fundamentally different of them all.
But there's another aspect of your argument that I fundamentally disagree with, and that's the notion that the Thirteenth Doctor cannot channel aspects of her predecessors simply because she's female. I think that's where a lot of the hate towards the "#NotMyDoctor" crowd comes from - a lot of people who dislike the female Doctor, including you because you did this in your post, don't seem to recognise that what they say about the female Doctor says about how they themselves view women. In saying that you don't think a woman could channel Bill Hartnell, while simultaneously claiming that all of the radically different personalities of Doctors 2-7 all manage to channel these aspects despite being very different characters in their own right, you're basically implying that you as a person do not see women the same way you see men, you treat them differently. You said in your comment that it would be hard to see Hartnell or Eccleston in the character if she wore lipstick and dresses, even though she never does that. Yet you're able to see Hartnell in a Doctor like 5, an indecisive, rash and underconfident character who stands in complete contrast to Hartnell's driven, calculating and sternly confident First Doctor? That doesn't make sense to me. You're trying to argue that a female Doctor would be too radical a deviation from the First Doctor, while also trying to argue that all the radically deviating post-Hartnell Doctors are actually all the same underneath. What this says to me is that you simply cannot see a woman in the same role that you see a man in, you're not holding the female Doctor to the same criteria as you do the male Doctors. The gender of the actor doesn't matter, the quality of their ability to act is all that matters. As long as they're a good enough actor, any man or woman can play any part. We don't need to reboot Doctor Who to have a female Doctor, that's segregation. I agree that there were issues with Jodie's Doctor but that is purely due to Jodie's poor preparation and Chibnall's lacklustre writing, it has nothing to do with the fact that it's a female Doctor. To swing back to my original point that started all this, we've seen what a female Doctor should be like - Romana is a perfect example. A female Doctor doesn't need to be feminine or have some reboot to justify her existence - she's just the Doctor, played by a woman. It doesn't have to be a big deal, the Doctor's persona changes from regeneration to regeneration and a lot of #NotMyDoctor types seem to allow their deeply-buried views on women to surface when considering the possibility that the Doctor could be a woman. It shouldn't make a difference unless you're the kind of person who believes that a woman cannot adopt the authority roles previously dominated by men.
@@dalekbumps Sorry but whilst I do respect that you took the time to read my loooooooooong post and are absolutely NOT a toxic arrogant person in any way shape or form like Mr Tardis, at the same time please do NOT ever veer into the "this reflects how you view women" or "What this says to me is that you simply cannot see a woman in the same role that you see a man in." It looks badly misinformed when addressed to me in particular, as I will soon be premiering several series that star female heroes and personally I was among the first to champion female entertainers like Amy Winehouse and Paloma Faith when hardly anybody knew them and I defended them, particularly Amy from ACTUAL vile misogyny when you were in school and probably wouldn't have given many female led things the time of day (as very few boys do as children.) Seriously if you think the NMD crowd are bad you would NOT have coped being an Amy fan in the 00s.
"It shouldn't make a difference unless you're the kind of person who believes that a woman cannot adopt the authority roles previously dominated by men."
I was watching these back in the 90s before you were born. ua-cam.com/video/aVYQjPXbUdc/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/2sncdewi3n8/v-deo.html, unlike the female Doctor these WERE actually successful, in some cases more so than DW, as Xena was a hit in Europe where DW never conquered and the Heroic Trio conquered the eastern and western markets..
Again let's not have a personal row over this, I realise that some of my comments were condescending so I apologise if that set the precedent. For the record one of my best friends in the world of DW is Claudia Boleyn, a huge supporter of the idea of a female Doctor. I try to avoid tribalism and shutting people off, so don't worry I won't be unsubbing or anything over this.
I could just as easily say that pro female Doctor people have a very, VERY poor understanding of female heroes, hence why they see it as a big groundbreaking thing to have a female hero in the 21st century which ironically could be interpreted as an insult to the dozens of female led things out there. Xena, Buffy, The Heroic Trio, Charmed, Once Upon A Time, Sleepy Hollow, I Zombie, Ghost Whisperer, Alien, Resident Evil, Survivors, Bionic Woman, The Bride with White Hair, to name a few all don't matter as much as a feminised version of a male hero? Again let's not delve into this side thinks this.
BTW the person who said that she couldn't take anything or relate to the previous Doctors because they were men was......... JODIE WHITTAKER HERSELF! Does she have problems with female authority figures? Also what about Colin Baker? He said in the docu More Than 30 Years in The TARDIS that he always kept William Hartnell in mind when playing the role as they were all the same man, and later said when defending a female Doctor, that there is no reason it can't be a woman because all of the Doctors are completely different, with no similarity. Hell you yourself are unknowingly agreeing with me by trying to make out that the Doctors are all completely different, despite that demonstrably being not true, just to justify a female Doctor. 1/2
Now onto your points about the Doctors being different, sorry but those are not the whole truth, or misguided takes on the Doctors characters. Lets look at all the similarities between the Doctors from Hartnell to McCoy and explain away some of what you see as radical differences.
All of them have the same motivation. They all want to explore the universe, but their strong sense of morals cause them to interfere now and again. However all often interfere because they are curious, just as much as for moral reasons. Curiosity kills the third and fifth Doctors, and leads to the first Doctor meeting the Daleks for instance.
All of them love to live life on their own rules, and ALL of them hate authority. (I don't know where you got the idea of Pertwee loving authority from? No offence, but have you watched many of his stories beyond the Dalek adventures? Pertwee was actually the most rebellious and left wing Doctor. 99 percent of the time he clashes with authority figures. There's one bit in the Daemons where he admonishes Jo for being angry at the Brig, but that is meant to be a funny scene because it is so hypocritical coming from him.)
All of them hate being asked to do something, even if it is to help they enjoy doing things on their own terms. Pertwee tries to escape his exile, even in the middle of crisis, Troughton hates being exiled, Hartnell has to be forced into helping in Keys, Tom has to be threatened and forced in Morbius, Genesis, Key to Time, Colin in Attack etc. They all hate having their leash pulled and can all be quite childish about being asked to do things. From Susan saying Hartnell is childish if he doesn't get his own way, Pertwee saying "what's wrong with being childish I like being childish" and Tom saying there's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish."
All of the Doctors are mysterious and cagey about their origins, and none of them have revealed their true name.
All of them are largely asexual. The first Doctor did have a wife, and there is possibly romance between Tom and Romana, but otherwise the Doctors are sexless and view their female companions as daughters, grand daughters. Even the young Davison who didn't suddenly fall in love with Peri, kept this up.
All of them have the same moral code. (Barring Hartnell in his first few stories before they got the character down right.) They all are willing to kill if need be and use any weapons if need be to do that, but prefer non violent means and will try and find an alternative path if possible, and don't believe in shooting someone unarmed.
Even little things like the Doctors love of jelly babies carries throughout multiple Doctors.
Even his physical appearance and dress sense has certain motif's and themes. For instance all of the Doctors have big and long hair to reflect his bohemian nature, dress in frock coats (1,2,3,4,5,7,8), with a Victorian/Edwardian era theme, many of them wear funny hats, (1,2,4,5,7) capes (1,2,3) and scarfs (1,2, 4) Question mark lapels (4.5.6.7) and all of their clothes are OTT
Hell even the type of actor they cast in the classic era was always the same type. IE a quirky character actor, rather than a conventional leading man, best known for comedy roles (Hartnell, Pertwee, McCoy) quirky off beat characters (Troughton, McCoy) or villainous characters, (Hartnell, Tom, Colin.) Also it's safe to say at that point that they were all apart from Davison somewhat unconventional looking and quite eccentric in real life like Pertwee and Tom in some cases.
All of these things clearly define the Doctor as a character in the classic era. If all the Doctors were completely different and there is NOTHING to link them, tell me why do all the Doctors travel? Why doesn't Tom tell us his real name?
Meanwhile if you watch the show you can see that in universe NONE of the Doctors ever act like they are dying when they regenerate. 2 says that he could never have survived/regenerated when he changes from Hartnell, and compares it to a caterpillar changing from a butterfly. He also says that it's not so bad when they tell him he can choose his new face. K'Napo says that he will survive when he regenerates, and 3's last worlds are "where there's life there's hope." Whilst 4 compares it to being in a new house, and he and other timelords make a distinction between regeneration and death in the Deadly Assassin. Peter Davison's Doctor meanwhile is terrified that the poison was so severe that he will die for good, stating is this death. Meanwhile the changes in Colin's personality are meant to be as a result of the regeneration not working, hence why he's scared. He says that he would never harm anyone unless it was in self defense. Why would Colin say that if he was a new person? For all he knows he is a psycho.
Also none of the Doctors relationships with Davros, the Master, the Brig or his guilt over not killing the Daleks in Genesis make sense if each one is a different person.
The differences you cite meanwhile are either exaggerated, or again simply come from living in a new body, or a shake up to his outer persona, not the core one or consciousness. IE Pertwee is more physical because he is in a big body, unlike Troughton, Hartnell is more crotchety than Davison because he is older, Tom is more humorous than Pertwee, but again that's the outer persona. Similarly their shallow interests like Troughton's love of music, Pertwee's love of frilly shirts all change, the same way we all go through different phases of our life.
Meanwhile Tom doesn't instantly abandon his life and job with the Brig? He works for UNIT in 4 stories in his first two years. On average that's the same as Pertwee for his last three seasons! UNIT is gradually phased out. Once he and Sarah part company and she's the last link with the 20th century, only then does he completely abandon UNIT.
Meanwhile the whole Tom didn't destroy the Daleks and McCoyy did thing is not at all how you present it. It is different, but it's portrayed as a character arc. Tom doesn't destroy the Daleks because morally and practically he thinks it is the right thing to do. However even as Tom he later regrets it. (Look at his face when he says he could have stopped Davros in Destiny.) Davison then wants to kill Davros to make up for it, stating outright that he regrets his decision as Tom, but finds he can't bring himself to just shoot him unarmed. Colin then is willing too morally, but his arrogance allows Davros to get the better of him, (as Colin is overconfident to make up for 5's uncertainty.) 7 finally is ready from a practical and moral point of view after centuries to make up for 4's and the others mistakes. We absolutely do not just jump from 4 to 7. We slowly develop it over a decade.
Even then 7 still agonizes over the decision. The cafe scene in Remembrance is basically a sequel to the "Have I the right" scene. Both have the Doctor questioning if what he is doing in destroying them is right, the only difference is McCoy goes through with it, but just as at the end of Genesis there is some doubt about whether they did the right thing between the Doctor and the companion, we see the same in Remembrance "we failed haven't we?" "Doctor we did good didn't we?" "Time will tell. It always does."
That's a great development and character arc, NOT just each one is different. That's sorry, a crap view of the Doctor. It stops him being a character and turns him into a title passed down to 7 different people. By your argument, why not cast Hulk Hogan as the next Doctor if everything is different?
Hey if you still don't believe me read Bob Holmes biography, read Patrick Troughton's interview with the Radio Times, Tom Baker's interview on Whose Doctor Who, (Taken at the height of his prowess in the role.) Terry Nation's interview with an American station, Terrance Dicks interview for the 50th and they ALL say exactly what I have said. That the different Doctors are different aspects of the same individual NOT 7 different people only linked by the memories, and that the goal was always to have someone who would do something new, but not so new you couldn't imagine it was Hartnell under the new face. Tom outright said that it was the single most limited role he ever played as there were so many things he couldn't do or else he wouldn't be the Doctor anymore! How do you square that with all of them are completely different?
Now with this in mind, yes there are limits on what the Doctor can be, so why is it outrageous to say that a sex change is beyond those limits given that 1/ none of the Doctors were portrayed as gender neutral, 2/ none of the Doctors ever expressed a desire to change sex, 3/ they have always been comfortable being men and have turned into a man 7 or 13 times if you count the revival so by virtue of that a female Doctor will look out of place, same way a romantic Doctor did after having him be asexual 7 times in a row?
And again yes Jodie's Doctor did not wear lipstick or dresses, but that was part of the problem in that they made her as genderless as possible, a lot of people asked "why bother changing sex in the first place if you strip her of all femininity?" It's not like they could make her trans or gender neutral as again that clashes with the Doctor, so she had to be just a blank slate basically.
Meanwhile Romana WAS feminine? Look at how she dressed ffs. Mary Tamm wore dresses, lipstick, black eyeliner was incredibly feminine in her mannerisms and Romana 2's costume was a PINK version of Tom's costume, a stereotypically girly version of his clothes! Then there is how she dressed in City of Death like a school girl!
@@dalekbumps What a long and clueless reply to a brilliant post. His core persona remains the same and we feel it is the same character even with some personality differences.
@@Divasdinosaursanddemons Perfect post this.
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I like destiny of the daleks.
Romana regenerating at will at the start. Not exactly canon!
a) Doctor Who canon is famously inconsistent.
b) Romana is better at Time Lord things than The Doctor, so it's not (entirely) unreasonable to say that such mayhem is not impossible.
I would definitely rate The Chase way lower than Destiny. Terrible!