Thanks, Wayne. Very helpful. I’ve used various docks and hubs on different devices and I’ve come to the conclusion that I can’t trust stated specs with any device combination until I test the specific configuration myself.
I realized this bandwidth limit/sharing while using a USB-C upstream on the LG 32UP83a monitor. Essentially, the monitor is a dock with 2 USB type A ports (3.0) and display connected with audio. I used a USB-c connection to drive the monitor from my iPad Pro M1 12.9, so I can utilize the external display feature, enabling the iPad as a desktop (stage manager). Initially, I plugged in a USB-Ethernet dongle to provide wired connectivity to the iPad. I was reaching around 350-300Mbps network speeds. This is when I realized the display output from the iPad uses around 700Mbps @ 4k-60Hz over the 10Gbit USB-C connection. Since then, I have returned to using a wireless network as I would achieve 500Mbps on average. Additional notes: The USB dongle was not the bottleneck. The iPad received power from the monitor up to 65watts over that connection. I determined the use for those USB 3 ports are only useful for HMI devices. Not sure if how well and what USB camera would work with that iPad, hmm.
Great points made. I recently purchased a 49" oled monitor 5120×1440. When connected through the FusionDock Pro 1+, it will not run at full resolution. I also have the owc express 1M2 with 990 Evo plus. I am running the two directly into the macbook Pro m4 Pro to get the best performance. I have other drives and a 8k tv connected to the dock. I am contemplating the purchase on the FusionDock Max 1 in an attempt to solve this. Based on your testing, I still would have to bypass the FusionDock Max 1. Do you agree, what are your thoughts?
It appears the Dock you are using only has a 5Gb/s connection to the host computer (not a ThunderBolt dock) Pretty underpowered dock. I have no clue how they can support 3 displays like they claim. The FusionDock Max1 should handle the bandwidth for the display. However, I think any good ThunderBolt dock such as the OWC 11 port ThunderBolt 4 dock would handle the displays fine. You will lose a little speed with your OWC 1m2 (around 2800 r/w) if you connect it to the dock, instead of the 3400 r/w I”m guessing you get directly connected,. That seems pretty standard with all TB3/4 docks right now, I haven’t found a dock yet that can get the full speed out of the new faster USB4 SSD enclosures. Now this would work find as long as you OLED display has a display port connection, since the OWC Dock only has connections to DisplayPort capable displays. (no HDMI). (It has 1 TB4 going in and 3 going out, so 2 displays if your Mac supports 2 displays, as well as another TB/USB 4 device. If your display only has HDMI, there are TB/DisplayPort adaptors to HDMI that might work. The OWC is a lot less (under $200 right now I think) , and if you order it from Amazon and it doesn’t work it’s pretty painless to return it to them.
@cwaynefox thank you for the very detailed answer. I will probably wait for the upcoming OWC thunderbolt 5 hub and see how the performance plays out. It supposedly will be released by the end of the year . Not many ports but should be fast. I do like the looks of the FusionDock Max 1 port wise. Thank you. New sub here. Great channel.
@@htnowpro good plan. I’ve had the OWC TB5 dock on order for a while, will post review ASAP once it arrives. It could be a good solution for your situation. Might solve the problem of reduced bandwidth to the 1M2.
Thank you!! This was super helpful! I just purchased 2TB of memory to use with an external enclosure and paid extra for the faster memory . I just might be negating in a hub. Good to know to look out for this.
Great info on the TB hub bandwidth sharing and how the monitors impact it. I can always count on you for in-depth technical content. I just got an M4 Pro Mac Mini and a Caldigit Elements hub so I’ll definitely keep your findings in mind when I connect all my devices. Looks like I’ll be investing in a TB hub when the prices come down at some point. I hope you’ll do a TB 5 hub review some day.
Working on a review of the Kensington (hint, it will probably need a firmware update and am working with Kensington tech support on that right now), and I have the OWC TB5 hub ordered and think it will be a really useful device.
It helps to know the "architecture" of your computer because you may have more bandwidth than you think. In the video, the starting point is a specific Apple computer. In the case of Windows, the high-level reasoning still applies. But. If you can track down a logical diagram of the motherboard in your computer, then you can see if there is a so-called "South Bridge" (SB) processor (chip). This would be referenced as the chipset of the motherboard in times when there also was a "North Bridge" (NB). Both would be "switches" and the NB was specialised in addressing memory and passing on other I/O to the SB. The SB then would provide time sharing of the link from the North (CPU/NB) and hook the North up with peripherals at the South end. In the SB, your mouse and HDD/SSD are competing for a CPU's I/O time. The NB, in the past decades, generally got integrated into the CPU, but the SB is still present in most cases (by market share). As a CPU has I/O lanes for the peripherals, we expect dedicated lanes for the GPU (graphics adapter card) or GPU processor if on the motherboard. An SB then may have a couple CPU I/O lanes and in most cases (of desktop and mobile CPU) this is the end of CPU I/O lanes. However workstation class motherboards, and the processors fitting that, have more lanes and these relay to PCIe connectors that are to be used optionally. In my workstation motherboard, the SB time shares 4 PCIe lanes between all USB and storage devices. It has 2 Thunderbolt connectors on separate PCIe lanes (from the spare ones in the explanation above) and then it still has "free", "optional" PCIe lanes. I hooked a PCIe I/O adapter into that and it gives me 8 lanes for HDD/SSD. I use these for the OS's page file, and temp, or scratch files used by applications. Keeping these I/O channels, that impact latency or user experience, separate from the basics means better performance - that exceeds the computer's pay grade. If you want very fast SSD/I/O, then don't buy into a time sharing device that mimics an SB. I have a 2-slot Thunderbolt CFexpress Type B card reader that is the fastest in the market and has its own power supply. It has a TB pass-through and that hooks into another fast SSD device. The other TB connector on the mobo hooks into two daisy-chained TB SSD. The moral of the story is that it's not desirable to hook slow devices into a time-sharing device. 2 Monitors of 4K , fine, but make sure the TB connector they're on is not sharing CPU time on its I/O lanes.
Thank you, Wayne. Most Buses are shared at some point, be it Memory, CPU, I/O or Controller Chip etc - you also need to consider the Computers internal layout, not just the Dock.
Yes internal layout will determine the actual capabilities as far as what display resolutions and number are supported, but the bus itself is PCIe multiplexed with DisplayPort, and is an Intel certified standard, so it seems the dock is much more likely to be the problem. I guess there might be something in the OS that is interpreting things wrong, but that seems unlikely as well to me.
Does the dock reduce the entire machines bandwidth or just the port it is plugged into? Ie. Would the drive speed return when plugging it in directly while the displays are still on the dock?
Each thunderbolt port has full bandwidth. If I move the displays to connect directly to the Mac through the other TB ports and the HDMI port, speeds through the dock are unaffected, and of course if I move the device to directly connect to the Mac I get the maximum speed possible.
Docks are so inconsistent its almost a farce to get tech that works as advertised. As a technologist I have a budget to test whatever tech i am interested with - so for example, finding docks that can fast charge a mobile gaming rig, needs just 65 watts and most docks fail to deliver the charge to the device so the device goes to slower speeds… also lets not get into usb c cables and different standards, charge rates and clone cables…. Yeah docks are tricky
Thank you. Informative. Unrelated have you had trouble with external drives whether via dock or direct plugin. I noticed that they often unplug themselves With the error message that you should eject them first. Wondering if this is an issue with the new Mac OS….
I had problems with that using Sonoma, and resorted to using Amphetamine to prevent the computer from completely sleeping which resolved the problem for me. Since switching to Sequoia it I haven’t seen the issue.
Excellent video, Wayne. Do you have the latest firmware updates to the CalDigit TS4? I don't remember exactly when those became available, but I think there were two of them, each related to different occasional speed issues on the different connector controllers.
Interesting- i recently upgraded to Fios Gigabit and I was testing some cheaper docks with Ethernet ports on my Mac, and was testing my internet speed and read and write to network drives. I noticed that my wired internet was getting only 80mbps while my WiFi connection was getting 540mbps on WiFi 6e. These Ethernet ports are supposed to be 1 Gigabit ports - I am still troubleshooting and it might not be the dock’s fault but that is also something that surprised me and that needs to be considered- the newest Caldigit dock has a 2.5Gbit Ethernet port.
I recently hard wired my ethernet as well when I upgraded to gigabit fiber. I was getting terrible speed (slower than wifi) , so I bought a 2.5GbE ethernet switch, to replace the old switch I had. It completely resolved the problem. I consistently get ping under 5ms now, and download and upload consistently around 950Mbps
Could that be a cable issue? Maybe worth testing it with other cables so it will be recognized as thunderbolt 3 or 4.Cables and standards got really messy IMO
tested with numerous cables, from OWC, CalDigit, TB3/ TB4 versions, as well as Apples very high quality TB4 $$$ cable. Currently working with CalDigit on the problem, they seemed quite interested. repeated all test with M3 Max (TB4 connections) same problem. This is definitely something between the 1M2 and the CalDigit. The one thing I haven’t tried is a USB 40 Gb/s cable, but according to everything I can find including from Intel who maintains the ThunderBolt standards, TB4 cables are fully compatible with USB4 and in fact they claim superior. I’ll keep working on it :). (OK, just tested it with the USB 4 cable that OWC includes with the 1M2 and the CalDigit ... no change. Still seen as a USB 3.2 10 Gb/s device by the Mac)
Did you test every cable you have with the same drive and dock? I now have all my cables labelled depending onm performance.There is a big difference.That is why the Caldigit Pro cable costs so much.Just a thought.
A ThunderBolt 5 dock (currently testing Kensingtons, video in a day or two) should help. You have double the bandwidth, and triple when sending data in only one direction. I assume if you tax the device with 3 4k displays at 144hz you might impede the performance of your storage devices, but the end result should still be much faster speed to those devices. We might be talking speeds of 5-6000 MB/s with no displays attached, and maybe losing some to only get 3-3500 MB/s with a couple of 4k 60hz displays. But that’s really fast, and for me fast enough.
Why aren't you plugging it directly into the Mac?. What if the problem is with the secondary device that's plugged into your Mac that's causing the issue
The issue is definitely something with the CalDigit interacting with the OWC. CalDigit Tech support is currently investigating. I can plug the SSD into the Mac, but I assume many buy a dock so they can just hook one cable to their Mac when they get to work or home and everything is there.
@@cwaynefox I did Engineer every termination point creates a drastic dip. The become passive resistors. Its just a principle , Plug your drives directly into the Mac
Sry. the Ivanky dock supports has an HDMI which supports 4k, and 2 TB4 downstream ports which support up to 6k , I used one of those for the SSD, so the other one went to the 2k display. The 4k Display was connected to with HDMI.
Interesting that ONCE AGAIN manufacturers don’t know about such bugs / problems of their own products. Not fighting Caltech or Satechi but a general observation. Are customers just a joke to all the manufacturers? Is the competition so tough for all the manufacturers that they don’t have the time, the staff or the money to check all aspects of their products? All manufacturers means all industries, all manufacturers, globally. Again not hating against the manufacturers named in this video.
I’m so, SO sick and tired of the video resets, drive disconnects, or other usb instability. I’ve seen it on EVERY dock on EVERY computer with EVERY peripheral I’ve had in the last 4 years.
My problem connecting DIRECTLY to the M1 Studio Max is (apparently?) the Mac Studio's Thunderbolt 4 port isn't providing enough power to the NVME enclosure? Just one NVME enclosure is connected - It just loses connection. I've tried multiple Thunderbolt 4 cables. I was hoping a dock would solve this issue? Any thoughts?
Currently work with CalDigit to see if there is a way to resolve this. I’ll update this comment as I get more information.
Thanks, Wayne. Very helpful.
I’ve used various docks and hubs on different devices and I’ve come to the conclusion that I can’t trust stated specs with any device combination until I test the specific configuration myself.
I realized this bandwidth limit/sharing while using a USB-C upstream on the LG 32UP83a monitor. Essentially, the monitor is a dock with 2 USB type A ports (3.0) and display connected with audio. I used a USB-c connection to drive the monitor from my iPad Pro M1 12.9, so I can utilize the external display feature, enabling the iPad as a desktop (stage manager).
Initially, I plugged in a USB-Ethernet dongle to provide wired connectivity to the iPad. I was reaching around 350-300Mbps network speeds. This is when I realized the display output from the iPad uses around 700Mbps @ 4k-60Hz over the 10Gbit USB-C connection. Since then, I have returned to using a wireless network as I would achieve 500Mbps on average.
Additional notes: The USB dongle was not the bottleneck. The iPad received power from the monitor up to 65watts over that connection. I determined the use for those USB 3 ports are only useful for HMI devices. Not sure if how well and what USB camera would work with that iPad, hmm.
Great find. Very useful info throughout. Thank you.
thanks
Thank you!
I have a question:
My thought is to use a dock to my mini pc! For all the extra ports, particularly external ssds and a nas.
Thanks..
should work if the mini pc has a compatible port.
@@cwaynefox Thanks!
Says it does! an atomman x7. Looks like I'll have enough ports to do the job!
Peace and a great holiday to you & yours!
Great points made. I recently purchased a 49" oled monitor 5120×1440. When connected through the FusionDock Pro 1+, it will not run at full resolution. I also have the owc express 1M2 with 990 Evo plus. I am running the two directly into the macbook Pro m4 Pro to get the best performance. I have other drives and a 8k tv connected to the dock. I am contemplating the purchase on the FusionDock Max 1 in an attempt to solve this. Based on your testing, I still would have to bypass the FusionDock Max 1. Do you agree, what are your thoughts?
It appears the Dock you are using only has a 5Gb/s connection to the host computer (not a ThunderBolt dock) Pretty underpowered dock. I have no clue how they can support 3 displays like they claim.
The FusionDock Max1 should handle the bandwidth for the display. However, I think any good ThunderBolt dock such as the OWC 11 port ThunderBolt 4 dock would handle the displays fine. You will lose a little speed with your OWC 1m2 (around 2800 r/w) if you connect it to the dock, instead of the 3400 r/w I”m guessing you get directly connected,. That seems pretty standard with all TB3/4 docks right now, I haven’t found a dock yet that can get the full speed out of the new faster USB4 SSD enclosures.
Now this would work find as long as you OLED display has a display port connection, since the OWC Dock only has connections to DisplayPort capable displays. (no HDMI). (It has 1 TB4 going in and 3 going out, so 2 displays if your Mac supports 2 displays, as well as another TB/USB 4 device.
If your display only has HDMI, there are TB/DisplayPort adaptors to HDMI that might work.
The OWC is a lot less (under $200 right now I think) , and if you order it from Amazon and it doesn’t work it’s pretty painless to return it to them.
@cwaynefox thank you for the very detailed answer. I will probably wait for the upcoming OWC thunderbolt 5 hub and see how the performance plays out. It supposedly will be released by the end of the year . Not many ports but should be fast. I do like the looks of the FusionDock Max 1 port wise. Thank you. New sub here. Great channel.
@@htnowpro good plan. I’ve had the OWC TB5 dock on order for a while, will post review ASAP once it arrives. It could be a good solution for your situation. Might solve the problem of reduced bandwidth to the 1M2.
@cwaynefox great. I look forward to your experiences of the new arrival.
Thank you!! This was super helpful! I just purchased 2TB of memory to use with an external enclosure and paid extra for the faster memory . I just might be negating in a hub. Good to know to look out for this.
Great info on the TB hub bandwidth sharing and how the monitors impact it. I can always count on you for in-depth technical content. I just got an M4 Pro Mac Mini and a Caldigit Elements hub so I’ll definitely keep your findings in mind when I connect all my devices. Looks like I’ll be investing in a TB hub when the prices come down at some point. I hope you’ll do a TB 5 hub review some day.
Working on a review of the Kensington (hint, it will probably need a firmware update and am working with Kensington tech support on that right now), and I have the OWC TB5 hub ordered and think it will be a really useful device.
It helps to know the "architecture" of your computer because you may have more bandwidth than you think.
In the video, the starting point is a specific Apple computer. In the case of Windows, the high-level reasoning still applies. But.
If you can track down a logical diagram of the motherboard in your computer, then you can see if there is a so-called "South Bridge" (SB) processor (chip). This would be referenced as the chipset of the motherboard in times when there also was a "North Bridge" (NB).
Both would be "switches" and the NB was specialised in addressing memory and passing on other I/O to the SB. The SB then would provide time sharing of the link from the North (CPU/NB) and hook the North up with peripherals at the South end. In the SB, your mouse and HDD/SSD are competing for a CPU's I/O time.
The NB, in the past decades, generally got integrated into the CPU, but the SB is still present in most cases (by market share).
As a CPU has I/O lanes for the peripherals, we expect dedicated lanes for the GPU (graphics adapter card) or GPU processor if on the motherboard. An SB then may have a couple CPU I/O lanes and in most cases (of desktop and mobile CPU) this is the end of CPU I/O lanes.
However workstation class motherboards, and the processors fitting that, have more lanes and these relay to PCIe connectors that are to be used optionally.
In my workstation motherboard, the SB time shares 4 PCIe lanes between all USB and storage devices. It has 2 Thunderbolt connectors on separate PCIe lanes (from the spare ones in the explanation above) and then it still has "free", "optional" PCIe lanes. I hooked a PCIe I/O adapter into that and it gives me 8 lanes for HDD/SSD. I use these for the OS's page file, and temp, or scratch files used by applications. Keeping these I/O channels, that impact latency or user experience, separate from the basics means better performance - that exceeds the computer's pay grade.
If you want very fast SSD/I/O, then don't buy into a time sharing device that mimics an SB. I have a 2-slot Thunderbolt CFexpress Type B card reader that is the fastest in the market and has its own power supply. It has a TB pass-through and that hooks into another fast SSD device. The other TB connector on the mobo hooks into two daisy-chained TB SSD.
The moral of the story is that it's not desirable to hook slow devices into a time-sharing device. 2 Monitors of 4K , fine, but make sure the TB connector they're on is not sharing CPU time on its I/O lanes.
Thank you, Wayne. Most Buses are shared at some point, be it Memory, CPU, I/O or Controller Chip etc - you also need to consider the Computers internal layout, not just the Dock.
Yes internal layout will determine the actual capabilities as far as what display resolutions and number are supported, but the bus itself is PCIe multiplexed with DisplayPort, and is an Intel certified standard, so it seems the dock is much more likely to be the problem. I guess there might be something in the OS that is interpreting things wrong, but that seems unlikely as well to me.
Does the dock reduce the entire machines bandwidth or just the port it is plugged into? Ie. Would the drive speed return when plugging it in directly while the displays are still on the dock?
Each thunderbolt port has full bandwidth. If I move the displays to connect directly to the Mac through the other TB ports and the HDMI port, speeds through the dock are unaffected, and of course if I move the device to directly connect to the Mac I get the maximum speed possible.
Docks are so inconsistent its almost a farce to get tech that works as advertised. As a technologist I have a budget to test whatever tech i am interested with - so for example, finding docks that can fast charge a mobile gaming rig, needs just 65 watts and most docks fail to deliver the charge to the device so the device goes to slower speeds… also lets not get into usb c cables and different standards, charge rates and clone cables…. Yeah docks are tricky
Thank you. Informative. Unrelated have you had trouble with external drives whether via dock or direct plugin. I noticed that they often unplug themselves With the error message that you should eject them first. Wondering if this is an issue with the new Mac OS….
I had problems with that using Sonoma, and resorted to using Amphetamine to prevent the computer from completely sleeping which resolved the problem for me. Since switching to Sequoia it I haven’t seen the issue.
Thank you. Interesting. Happens with Sequoia for me
Great starting point Wayne. Looking forward to more real world tests. A.
thanks.
Excellent video, Wayne. Do you have the latest firmware updates to the CalDigit TS4? I don't remember exactly when those became available, but I think there were two of them, each related to different occasional speed issues on the different connector controllers.
Yes, running the latest FW I could find, 39.1. Currently working with CalDigit to try and see what’s going on.
I am learning a lot here today. I didn't know these hubs had firmware updates.
Interesting- i recently upgraded to Fios Gigabit and I was testing some cheaper docks with Ethernet ports on my Mac, and was testing my internet speed and read and write to network drives. I noticed that my wired internet was getting only 80mbps while my WiFi connection was getting 540mbps on WiFi 6e. These Ethernet ports are supposed to be 1 Gigabit ports - I am still troubleshooting and it might not be the dock’s fault but that is also something that surprised me and that needs to be considered- the newest Caldigit dock has a 2.5Gbit Ethernet port.
I recently hard wired my ethernet as well when I upgraded to gigabit fiber. I was getting terrible speed (slower than wifi) , so I bought a 2.5GbE ethernet switch, to replace the old switch I had. It completely resolved the problem. I consistently get ping under 5ms now, and download and upload consistently around 950Mbps
Could that be a cable issue? Maybe worth testing it with other cables so it will be recognized as thunderbolt 3 or 4.Cables and standards got really messy IMO
tested with numerous cables, from OWC, CalDigit, TB3/ TB4 versions, as well as Apples very high quality TB4 $$$ cable. Currently working with CalDigit on the problem, they seemed quite interested. repeated all test with M3 Max (TB4 connections) same problem. This is definitely something between the 1M2 and the CalDigit. The one thing I haven’t tried is a USB 40 Gb/s cable, but according to everything I can find including from Intel who maintains the ThunderBolt standards, TB4 cables are fully compatible with USB4 and in fact they claim superior. I’ll keep working on it :). (OK, just tested it with the USB 4 cable that OWC includes with the 1M2 and the CalDigit ... no change. Still seen as a USB 3.2 10 Gb/s device by the Mac)
@cwaynefox thank you for the research and the testing. Just subscribed and looking forward for your content 🙏
Did you test every cable you have with the same drive and dock? I now have all my cables labelled depending onm performance.There is a big difference.That is why the Caldigit Pro cable costs so much.Just a thought.
yeah, lots of good cables, including Apple’s 69 TB cable and a TB 5 cable. CalDigit and OWC TB 4 cables.
Thanks for the video. And you have a wonderful voice, I could listen for HOURS 😉 Question: A TB5 dock (if available) would solve the problem, right?
A ThunderBolt 5 dock (currently testing Kensingtons, video in a day or two) should help. You have double the bandwidth, and triple when sending data in only one direction. I assume if you tax the device with 3 4k displays at 144hz you might impede the performance of your storage devices, but the end result should still be much faster speed to those devices. We might be talking speeds of 5-6000 MB/s with no displays attached, and maybe losing some to only get 3-3500 MB/s with a couple of 4k 60hz displays. But that’s really fast, and for me fast enough.
Great video very usefulll testing thank you. I think you need a Mac Studio and lose some of the docks.
This is a good point.
Wow, so good to know! Thanks for the research and video!
thanks.
Why aren't you plugging it directly into the Mac?. What if the problem is with the secondary device that's plugged into your Mac that's causing the issue
The issue is definitely something with the CalDigit interacting with the OWC. CalDigit Tech support is currently investigating. I can plug the SSD into the Mac, but I assume many buy a dock so they can just hook one cable to their Mac when they get to work or home and everything is there.
@@cwaynefox I did Engineer every termination point creates a drastic dip. The become passive resistors. Its just a principle , Plug your drives directly into the Mac
"I didn't plan it too well..." Indeed. This is a video with a lot of data but not much information. What dock should we buy?
usb4 has a little less overhead than thunderbolt.
It was not clear how the display was connected to your dock - thunderbolt? display port? hdmi?
You just said it was connected
Cheers
Sry. the Ivanky dock supports has an HDMI which supports 4k, and 2 TB4 downstream ports which support up to 6k , I used one of those for the SSD, so the other one went to the 2k display. The 4k Display was connected to with HDMI.
I had no idea. Thank you.
Interesting that ONCE AGAIN manufacturers don’t know about such bugs / problems of their own products.
Not fighting Caltech or Satechi but a general observation.
Are customers just a joke to all the manufacturers? Is the competition so tough for all the manufacturers that they don’t have the time, the staff or the money to check all aspects of their products? All manufacturers means all industries, all manufacturers, globally. Again not hating against the manufacturers named in this video.
I’m so, SO sick and tired of the video resets, drive disconnects, or other usb instability. I’ve seen it on EVERY dock on EVERY computer with EVERY peripheral I’ve had in the last 4 years.
My problem connecting DIRECTLY to the M1 Studio Max is (apparently?) the Mac Studio's Thunderbolt 4 port isn't providing enough power to the NVME enclosure? Just one NVME enclosure is connected - It just loses connection. I've tried multiple Thunderbolt 4 cables. I was hoping a dock would solve this issue? Any thoughts?
How many SSD’s in the enclosure? Each SSD can pull over 10 watts, and I think the Mac only supplies 15 watts of power.
@cwaynefox Just one NVME in the enclosure. A 4 TB HP NVME, brand new.
@@DirettoIZMwhat enclosure?
@cwaynefox Wavlink - It's a vented aluminum enclosure from Amazon. The OWC one I wanted was out of stock. Thanks for your effort, by the way!