Radwood NorCal was great, and both Jason and Derek were very generous with their time. They did a little Q&A, after which Jason stayed on stage and held court for anyone that wanted to chat or ask questions. Thanks to both of them for taking the time and bringing out a couple show-stopping cars for us to goggle at!
The best description of steering feel I've heard was not from a journalist, but a suspension engineer: "The steering feel of a car also depends on the steering calibration being in sync with the rest of the chassis, in particular the dampers and tires. When you turn the wheel, the car yaws, rolls, and builds lateral acceleration. If all of those things don't occur in a very coordinated way and at similar rates, you get mixed signals from the car and the feedback is degraded. (This is the biggest problem with modern BMW's, FWIW. It's like their steering calibration and damper calibrations were just plucked from two completely different cars and thrown together in a third model and signed off.) The problem is that with modern automotive development cycles, you typically don't have the luxury of doing everything in series, or late design changes to fix a problem can result in worse performance than intended. Or, maybe the steering calibration is done on prototype dampers and the final production ones are a couple percent stiffer or softer, which throws off how all the systems work together. Or, maybe a vehicle has 12 wheel and tire combinations, but there can only be 4 different steering cals, so they all have to be a compromise between 3 different tires characteristics. Finally, and most importantly, it comes down to the skillset of vehicle dynamics team that's developing the car. There are no calculations that can tell you when a car is fun to drive or rides well . . . the people tuning and calibrating the components and systems have to understand their market, know what a good car feels like, and know how to use their experience to put the puzzle pieces together right. That's far more challenging than you can imagine. As a suspension development engineer, I have as big of an effect on the steering feel of a car as the steering development engineer." -Random alleged suspension engineer.
This comment will probably get lost - but that's quite an interesting writeup. In many ways, I feel this in cars which have deteriorated suspension. If a bush is deflecting more than it should because it's tired, allowing the rear end to do weird things, that affects the whole car in a very strange way and makes things feel... weird. I must be more sensitive to most because I instantly feel this in so many cars I get in, even ride in. I can tell those which are tight, and I can tell those of which aren't. To this point I'm rebuilding the entire rear end of my car soon because of this. The expense is high, and nothing is cracked or broken or making noise. But I can just tell that shit is weird. It inputs strange feedback to both the seat, and the steering, on bumps, even in a straight line. It doesn't land 4 square because of a repair 7 years ago where one bush and control arm was replaced on the driver side, and thus that side is "tighter". Another gripe I have actually is Jason's comment about old Toyota\Lexus steering feel. I completely disagree. He needs to drive a 98+ LS400\430, where they revised the power steering. It very much has a build of effort as the tires start working more difficulty. It transmits camber changes into the wheel weight beautifully in a very natural way, ESPECIALLY under high suspension articulation. And so I disagree that they boost out all of that. My rack is in perfect condition with brand new bushings and it transmits wonderfully. The contrast between it and every EPS rack I've driven (even those in a 718 Cayman) is incredible - they all don't hold a candle. And this is the "luxury" car with over-boosted dead steering! It's only "downside" is that it does fall apart at the limit. It doesn't communicate the loss of grip correctly, nor does it want to self-center very strongly. But I give that a pass because that isn't what the car is for. It drives and gives wonderful feedback up to about 7\10ths, which for boat like that, is perfectly suitable. And while the steering isn't great, the balance of the car when drifting is actually quite good. It's very controllable due to the long wheelbase of the 95+ cars. Compare this to the normal Toyota piles that were also being produced in the same era and I think they don't hold up nearly as well. Even the Lexus RX, the SUV. I think the 400 is unique among the product lineup. And especially the 2nd generation LS400, once the car got VVTI, dropped 200 pounds and lengthened the wheelbase for a more luxury ride among hundreds of other changes, these changes started racking up to prove to be a monumental difference. The changes amount to how Jason has described the difference between the first Bugatti Veyron vs. the 1200hp Super Sports model. That's how much continued development and difference in feel the newer car is vs the older one.
Saw a nearly flawless Buick Roadmaster recently and was in utter disbelief that someone cared for that car so well for so long. Stuck with me more than the Huracans I see every now and then.
Thanks for the shoutout! My parents bought that Twilight Blue Buick Regal GS new when I was 12. I've owned it since 2017 and taken it to a handful of Radwood shows.
Great discussion, as always. As a 60 year-old gearhead, having started my career on a tricycle in about 1965, I just spent a little over an hour alternately nodding my head in agreement and sharing the horrors of modern ways. FWIW, my current low-budget two car solution is a 2008 Lexus ES 350 and a 1988 (manual) C4 Corvette. It works for me.
This was easily one of the most important pieces of automotive media in history. I haven't heard steering explained so well before and every vehicle dynamics engineer needs to stop what they're doing a watch this so we can get back to proper steering in all cars.
The sun and lack of shade was brutal, which was ironic since it's been one of the coldest summers in quite some time. I was in period attire, but by the end most of it had to be stashed in my EF to avoid being a human sauna. The 83 Skyline RS-X RS Turbo was my best in show. Cheers.
Hi Jason, regarding the loss of steering weight as understeer sets in, there is a great thread on an F1 forum about this. Not an ME, but mechanical trail (which is related to caster) has a large impact on this behavior. Basically, it can be quantified and it should be possible to engineer or modify a vehicle to deliver your preferred feeling of steering effort build and drop-off. I also feel very able to identify the understeer limit in the unassisted steering on my 91 Civic; given your description it sounds like the Civic of that era has more communicative steering than the NSX, ironically. Edit: LOL that closing statement. I feel so vindicated having daily driven a 91 Civic Si as my only car for the last six years.
As someone totally against EV's for several reasons, Jason's rant today about not wanting "fake" and if that's what I'm getting then just give me the next thing, struck me hard today. While I'm definitely not as picky as Jason and Derek with steering feel and stuff his point is totally valid and for the first time having thinking like that would make me consider the change too.
The show you guys are describing, with a handful of cars, info, and seeing them run - it's Demo Days at the Simeone Museum in Philly. They bring out a few cars from their collection tied around a theme, the curators give a short lecture, and then drive the cars in the back lot.
Yes! Best collection I've been to. I was fortunate to have my 2005 STi featured at the Simeone for Subaru of America's Subaru Day. I've also attended a photography workshop there as well. What an epic collection of cars. The Winner's Circle in particular -- 1927 Mercedes-Benz S-Type Sportwagen, 1936 Bugatti 57G “Tank”, 1938 Alfa Romeo 8c 2900B Mille Miglia Spider, 1952 Cunningham C-4R Roadster, 1958 Aston Martin DBR1. Can't forget about the hippy car, the Porsche 917...and so much more. I learn new information every visit and there's still a ton I'll never know. The mechanics working there have a wealth of information and cool stories.
Classic SUV with a removable roof and a 2 seat sports car is the best 2 car solution. 4x4 for deep snow, roof off for summer, sports car for when you need more engagement
As someone who raced radio controlled cars at club, national and international level. You get absolutely zero feedback from the car but you can catch understeer or oversteer moments and do so every single lap multiple times, your mind is powerful enough to learn ways to get by, you don't need feedback or steering feel. Mr force feedback 😂😂 I have EPAS on my auto cross car also it doesn't matter at all.
I'm friends with the guy in Miami who owns crazy BMW/Merc collection from the 80s/90s including Bruno Sacco's personal w201 190e still registered in his name, would be cool to have that car at your November anniversary meet
I think the beginning of the end is when they started doing electronic throttle bodies in the early 2000's. Our shop workhorse is a 2008 Grand Caravan with the antiquated 3.3L combined with e-throttle, and I can stab it repeatedly with absolutely no reaction. Meanwhile I bought a beater 2007 Ford Freestar for $800... cable throttle. And the newest car I've seen with a cable-operated throttle is the 2010 Hyundai Elantra. Neither particular enthusiastic, but they're still the latest analog feeling vehicles I can think of.
I drive my ae86 3 out of 5 days a week to work because its so enjoyable and authentic. It has manual steering no ABS(sometimes I find ABS not to be authentic) no AC and I never use the radio and I love every minute of it had the car for over 20 years now and I don't foresee myself getting rid of it. I believe it was devolved in the late 70s or early 80s since the first model year was 83. Jason I don't know if you read these but have you ever considered getting getting a regular NA elise I think over all you will enjoy the experience more an NA 2zz is such a joy to ring out and considering you have 11 cars you don't really need it to be practical with TQ, just a thought.
41:28 is exactly what I found a R53 didn't do that I went to test drive that disappointed me coming from my E36 and to me that's a lot of the fun I find in just regular driving. It also makes me think that it's part of what makes the car shrink around your surroundings but the fact that I could maneuver the Mini blindfolded at low speeds because the steering was similarly heavy being hydraulic...I dunno.. this might sound dumb but I wonder if front wheel drive has a real effect on what sort of steering feedback you can get vs rear wheel drive having never driven a Mk1 VW. But this is just making me confirm how damn good my E36 is. Also 53:15, I've been driving my Mk5 Golf for about 6 months, I learned to drive on the 316i and I know that car better than I know many things... when it started dancing around in my hands as I was making my way through the city just dodging regular Greek bullshit like mopeds and horrific bumps I kind of started to realize the Golf does nothing for me despite it being faster and that I have to sell it soon. I've vmaxxed it (in a closed course etc.) which I never would put up that much sustainted abuse on the BMW...but I don't care. Since experiencing what it's like to have speed and power (even if it's barely 140hp for my Mk5 TSI), noise and feel hasn't faded the fun I used to have with the E36 barely being quicker than a limping Vespa. In fact, I appreciate it more. I still tell myself I would probably have a new M3 because I just like it and think it would be the right thing to do... my dad's Yaris Hybrid is a transportation pod. If all new cars are as unengaging as that fridge sold as a car I might not wanna become an automotive journalist. What's the point? but I hAVE to know. I gots to know. I must know. At least I have the palette cleanser and am fortunate enough to have experienced reality so far. An anecdote I have is that my dad used to know a man who owned an orange 2.7 RS in Greece (since sold it, unfortunately, was hoping to meet him and it) and he was looking across the street at his neighbor who bought a brand new 300CE W124 coupe and he told my dad "look at the junk people buy these days". Who knows what people will be saying that about in years to come.
Great talk about steering. It became blatantly obvious to me that BMW had lost it when I took my 128i in for yet another recall. I got a 330i loaner and the steering was dead with a capital "D". I could feel absolutely nothing through it. The engine pulled hard, and the chassis was considerably stiffer that the old E82's, but it was a bore to drive it. The hydraulic rack lets me feel the high frequency stuff perfectly. I can feel crosswinds in the steering wheel. I can feel when my tires dance over rain grooves. When the front wheels are near the limit, the high frequency vibrations cease, and I know it's time to really pay attention. It's simply a joy to drive, and it tracks like a laser on the highway. I plan on rebuilding everything that breaks on it until it's no longer legal to drive on the street.
Agree 100% on what is important in steering. When i was young, this was available in econoboxes and now it's rare, which is a shame. One thing to add: stability control also adds to the conversation with the driver and often that conversation can also be unclear (at least in pedestrian cars). Keep the modern features, but pay more attention to the driver interface (and I'm not talking about the infotainment screen!)
I own a 2001 Z28 ( made in 2000) which is unfortunate because its the right era but wrong year so I leave it home. I do enjoy going to Radwood but I didn't see any 4th gen Fbody cars at our local event last year (which is crazy given how many exist), aside from that personal grievance 🤣 I really love this event. Much like music of the same time period it immediately brings back memories and feelings from the 80s/90s and I could easily spend days lost in the nostalgia. I really hope to see these events continue into the future especially as the jelly bean blob designs take over the world.
I have a semi-serious hypothesis about decades, that is the style and tastes and look of the decade we associate with a decade actually start and end three years late; so what we think of as the 60s is really 1963-72, the 70s is 1973-82, etc. So what we think of as the 90s in terms of style and vibes really goes until 2002 or so. By this framing, long story short your Z28 is spiritually a Radwood car, even if it's not technically...especially because it's fundamentally still a 90s design that carried over into its last model years. ✊
47:03 the question becomes, how does one DIY steering feel? Like its not impossible, and it shouldn’t be hard given a certain degree of reasonability. So what does one do? What fuse do ya pull, what bushings do you replace? Can I simply screw a bolt a tad tighter? (Questions as rhetorical vs lookin for actual answers here, unless you have em). Except for them steering boxes and literal steer by wire, it can’t be all doom and gloom with the power of tastefully modifying. Looking for actual info on steering based modification has been my greatest stumper, but atleast through this video I have more insight on what good steering should be.
I test drove a Cavalier RS Convertible back in 2000 and something. Holy cowl shake, Batman. The amount of chassis flex was comical - it was like driving in one of those rubbery 1920s black and white cartoons.
So I missed the AMA. Jason, Derek, I ask you this: Since I want an 88 16V, but also a 3rd gen Trans Am, should I just split the difference and get a 944 Turbo? Also, it was awesome seeing you guys.
@@AndreThompson925 I don't know if I saw you specifically, but I saw a Sonny Crocket walking around and threw him some props. I've owned a 3rd generation Formula and a MK2 16V GTI, and if buying again I'd get the MK2.
@@thepassionofthegoose5472 I was wearing a pink shirt and white pants. I also checked in cars and spectators before the event started. I have had a 1992 16v GTI and a 1987 Trans Am as well as a 1992 Z28. I think you're right.
@@AndreThompson925 I'm not sure what the Crocket I saw was wearing exactly, but I only saw one and he looked proper Crocket. I was wearing a Misfits shirt, puffer MC Hammer pants and Vans. I looked sorta period correct, but I could have easily passed for someone on Valencia looking for coffee. Regarding the VR6. I sold my MK2 in 2011 after giving up on doing a VR6 swap. The research I did turned me off to the idea because I didn't want to deal with smog, etc. Bought a Silver Smoke 190e 2.3-16 for less than the cost of the swap and was a happy camper. Clearly those days are over.
I think the best 2 car solution is probably 1. F-150 Lightning 2. Pick your car - mine is manual Mustang GT but I've considering an R32 or R34 (not GT-R can't afford,)
They would have to admit that they have a flexi chassis then and that’s universally a bad thing. Suspension is supposed to flex and move, not the chassis no matter what it is.
@@indiebekonnthat's a thing on the road, not crawling over rocks somewhere. Tyres on the ground is more critical than what keeps them there. Especially before the days that CAD helped stack and track all of the arithmetic to make stronger chassis feasible, and an era of general prosperity in the 90s and 00s to pay for it.
@@grievuspwn4g3 nope, a stiff chassis is essential off road too and Land Rover products were pretty stiff and tough(when not rotted out) unlike some monocoque competitors for example.
So while my older brother had a 1984 Accord Lx-i hatchback, i was dreaming of the ' 86 CRX si! That may still come true, I have realized a later dream of owning a BMW. My new to me 2014 328d wagon is amazing! Sexy and practical (just like me). 😉 Looks are subjective. But so is driving feel. Most of us, even with a certain breath of experience, aren't going to have enough knowledge to know what makes a truly great handling car. While i appreciate your view, it only goes so far. We all can't drive hundreds of cars to get a refined opinion. I know i love my Bimmer for it's great handling simply because of the crap that came before it. Is it the best? I don't know. Its the best I've driven. Would i like everyone to have the best? Yes. But would most understand it? Or even appreciate it? I highly doubt it.
Episode Idea: Listener submitted "rate my _ car garage" in the most curmudgeonly way possible. My 3 car solution for example: Tesla Model 3 Performance: Daily/Roadtripper Lotus Elise: "Fun"/Autocross Subaru Impreza: RallyCross/Winter Hooning
43:31 I guess the thing is nobody cares about that. In fact, most people just want a smooth ride because they never drive anywhere near the limit. Cars with low limits are driven by people who don't go there, cars with high limits set then so high it's nearly impossible to go there. But also, I remember car journalists complaining about stuff coming through on the steering wheel all the time in the past... So they're at least partially to blame 🤷♂️
I can definitely agree with what you both say (in principle) for steering, but for me, every time I go to those older vehicles... the minimum bar on on-center and/or slop (precision) is just consistently not met for me. I anticipate it relates to driving attentions, and the recognition that most driving is routine and not spirited, that with precise steering, one knows what the car does as a function of input. Input matching output, and the second it deviates from that, or suggests deviation from that, that's the indication for limits/condition shifts. If I can't trust the car to be consistent input to output on steering, a resulting lack of confidence on corner entry in particular is where I feel most disconcerted. And unlike texture (realistically), precision matters all the time. Nothing like having to saw at a wheel to park a flopping textured steering... Then again, I also like CVTs for fun vehicles (snowmobiles etc), so perhaps I'm completely "trained wrong". (Surprise surprise, a non-automotive engineer)
I’ve been thinking about the 2-car solution myself lately. I’m not anti-EV, but not being able to charge at home is somewhat of a barrier to entry, and I do take road trips that would make range a concern (for now). So I’ve been asking myself what I’d get as probably my last gasoline powered daily driver if I were buying new, and it’s not a long list. Since I’ll be keeping the Miata, I’m looking at sedans. They don’t need to be super fun, but I would like something I don’t hate driving. First contender would be a four-cylinder Alfa Giulia. Yeah, I’d be a little concerned about durability, but these things have a great chassis. A Civic Si also sounds worth checking out. As a former Honda owner, I’d like to get back into one of their products, and this one seems to be the sweet spot for value, fun, and usability. And last, I’d have to consider a Camry TRD with the 301-hp 2GR V6. I mean, it’s the last of the midsize family sedans with stupidly powerful, big, NA sixes, and it’ll probably run for the next 30-40 years. While I can think of other cars I might also want, all of them cost more than I really need to spend. And I can be remarkably cheap sometimes.
Do you think once EV gets widespread adaptation, ICE cars will head to the scrapper en masse? Will people care about regular, non performance versions of cars famous for their performance? (I.e. BMW M3s will probably survive, but what about the 323i that people get as their first "enthusiast" car?)
Steering feel is the one reason I maintain the worst car I've ever operated in my life is the Chevrolet Classic. Steering feel was ZERO, to the point I had no idea what the front tires were doing. One HAD to drive the car frustratingly slow because there was no way to know if any curve could be navigated at any speed above 0 mph. Even if that car was magically granted the road holding grip of a supercar, you STILL would have to drive it just as slow purely from the unconnected steering.
Personally coming from racing simulators I think if the faking is good enough I would prefer it over no feedback, since in racing sims force feedback does help out a lot vs just having a dead wheel.
Controversial opinion: since we can no longer have fun with modern technology, would we all be better off if manufacturers like BMW combined electric and manual simulators with the cars of our beloved past? If you can’t afford an E30 M3 Evo why not have the same experience with a good immersive (what’s better than reality?) simulator so you can have a relatively real experience? Not saying I’m right but it’s like reality and Gran Turismo combined? It’s better than nothing which seems to be where we’re headed.
Wearing a full on outfit at radwood that people will recognize is awkward. Sorry it just is. People always pick the over the top lame pop token 80s/90s fits when in reality styles from that period are still very relevant today so it’s much cooler to just wear a period correct vintage T that still looks good today or something like that.
Any town above Fresno is Northern California. North Fork is the exact area. Politics plays a role in the division also. Back in the days of using maps, Mt. Diablo referenced North and Mt. Whitney for the South according to USGS. There is a Central Valley but not a central California.
![АЛАУДИНОВ у Скабеевой: эти их ВСУ нас НЕ ДОГОНЯТ 😁 [Пародия]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/an0anqU4WGQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Better than the clap was how excited the kid was who asked Derek to clap. He was so happy, totally made his year.
I was the dude who asked to clap
@@MrBMW-ic8ur Nice! Awesome question that gave me the giggles for hours
@@miggytosh Glad I was able to make the crowd laugh!
I'm glad I was able to do some stumping :)
Radwood NorCal was great, and both Jason and Derek were very generous with their time. They did a little Q&A, after which Jason stayed on stage and held court for anyone that wanted to chat or ask questions. Thanks to both of them for taking the time and bringing out a couple show-stopping cars for us to goggle at!
The best description of steering feel I've heard was not from a journalist, but a suspension engineer:
"The steering feel of a car also depends on the steering calibration being in sync with the rest of the chassis, in particular the dampers and tires.
When you turn the wheel, the car yaws, rolls, and builds lateral acceleration. If all of those things don't occur in a very coordinated way and at similar rates, you get mixed signals from the car and the feedback is degraded. (This is the biggest problem with modern BMW's, FWIW. It's like their steering calibration and damper calibrations were just plucked from two completely different cars and thrown together in a third model and signed off.)
The problem is that with modern automotive development cycles, you typically don't have the luxury of doing everything in series, or late design changes to fix a problem can result in worse performance than intended.
Or, maybe the steering calibration is done on prototype dampers and the final production ones are a couple percent stiffer or softer, which throws off how all the systems work together.
Or, maybe a vehicle has 12 wheel and tire combinations, but there can only be 4 different steering cals, so they all have to be a compromise between 3 different tires characteristics.
Finally, and most importantly, it comes down to the skillset of vehicle dynamics team that's developing the car. There are no calculations that can tell you when a car is fun to drive or rides well . . . the people tuning and calibrating the components and systems have to understand their market, know what a good car feels like, and know how to use their experience to put the puzzle pieces together right. That's far more challenging than you can imagine.
As a suspension development engineer, I have as big of an effect on the steering feel of a car as the steering development engineer."
-Random alleged suspension engineer.
This comment will probably get lost - but that's quite an interesting writeup.
In many ways, I feel this in cars which have deteriorated suspension. If a bush is deflecting more than it should because it's tired, allowing the rear end to do weird things, that affects the whole car in a very strange way and makes things feel... weird. I must be more sensitive to most because I instantly feel this in so many cars I get in, even ride in. I can tell those which are tight, and I can tell those of which aren't.
To this point I'm rebuilding the entire rear end of my car soon because of this. The expense is high, and nothing is cracked or broken or making noise. But I can just tell that shit is weird. It inputs strange feedback to both the seat, and the steering, on bumps, even in a straight line. It doesn't land 4 square because of a repair 7 years ago where one bush and control arm was replaced on the driver side, and thus that side is "tighter".
Another gripe I have actually is Jason's comment about old Toyota\Lexus steering feel. I completely disagree. He needs to drive a 98+ LS400\430, where they revised the power steering. It very much has a build of effort as the tires start working more difficulty. It transmits camber changes into the wheel weight beautifully in a very natural way, ESPECIALLY under high suspension articulation. And so I disagree that they boost out all of that. My rack is in perfect condition with brand new bushings and it transmits wonderfully. The contrast between it and every EPS rack I've driven (even those in a 718 Cayman) is incredible - they all don't hold a candle. And this is the "luxury" car with over-boosted dead steering!
It's only "downside" is that it does fall apart at the limit. It doesn't communicate the loss of grip correctly, nor does it want to self-center very strongly. But I give that a pass because that isn't what the car is for. It drives and gives wonderful feedback up to about 7\10ths, which for boat like that, is perfectly suitable. And while the steering isn't great, the balance of the car when drifting is actually quite good. It's very controllable due to the long wheelbase of the 95+ cars.
Compare this to the normal Toyota piles that were also being produced in the same era and I think they don't hold up nearly as well. Even the Lexus RX, the SUV. I think the 400 is unique among the product lineup. And especially the 2nd generation LS400, once the car got VVTI, dropped 200 pounds and lengthened the wheelbase for a more luxury ride among hundreds of other changes, these changes started racking up to prove to be a monumental difference. The changes amount to how Jason has described the difference between the first Bugatti Veyron vs. the 1200hp Super Sports model. That's how much continued development and difference in feel the newer car is vs the older one.
Autism can be exciting because it manifests in so many different ways 🙂
I imagine that's why talking about Lucid Jason told us about the E39M5 of the engineering team
Saw a nearly flawless Buick Roadmaster recently and was in utter disbelief that someone cared for that car so well for so long. Stuck with me more than the Huracans I see every now and then.
You’re not allowed to do a Sacco episode until you do a Piech episode! Lol Jason, give the Lotus to me, please.
Thanks for the shoutout! My parents bought that Twilight Blue Buick Regal GS new when I was 12. I've owned it since 2017 and taken it to a handful of Radwood shows.
6:40 Magnificent seeing the Citroen and Rover together, memories of my 80s teen years :)
Great discussion, as always. As a 60 year-old gearhead, having started my career on a tricycle in about 1965, I just spent a little over an hour alternately nodding my head in agreement and sharing the horrors of modern ways. FWIW, my current low-budget two car solution is a 2008 Lexus ES 350 and a 1988 (manual) C4 Corvette. It works for me.
This was easily one of the most important pieces of automotive media in history. I haven't heard steering explained so well before and every vehicle dynamics engineer needs to stop what they're doing a watch this so we can get back to proper steering in all cars.
The sun and lack of shade was brutal, which was ironic since it's been one of the coldest summers in quite some time. I was in period attire, but by the end most of it had to be stashed in my EF to avoid being a human sauna. The 83 Skyline RS-X RS Turbo was my best in show. Cheers.
We need a meme of Jason shaking his fist at tuned GTIs. “old man yells at crackle tunes!”
Hi Jason, regarding the loss of steering weight as understeer sets in, there is a great thread on an F1 forum about this.
Not an ME, but mechanical trail (which is related to caster) has a large impact on this behavior.
Basically, it can be quantified and it should be possible to engineer or modify a vehicle to deliver your preferred feeling of steering effort build and drop-off.
I also feel very able to identify the understeer limit in the unassisted steering on my 91 Civic; given your description it sounds like the Civic of that era has more communicative steering than the NSX, ironically.
Edit: LOL that closing statement. I feel so vindicated having daily driven a 91 Civic Si as my only car for the last six years.
hey, do you recall the name of the name of that forum or the thread?
The lowered smoke silver E320 wagon is my husband’s car. He has been excited about the Bruno Sacco show since he got the invite
Went to Radwood in Chicago a couple years ago. I was underwhelmed
"I need a Lotus Elise for professional reasons" is like when I told my mom I needed a computer for school.
As someone totally against EV's for several reasons, Jason's rant today about not wanting "fake" and if that's what I'm getting then just give me the next thing, struck me hard today. While I'm definitely not as picky as Jason and Derek with steering feel and stuff his point is totally valid and for the first time having thinking like that would make me consider the change too.
22:09 can’t wait to look back and talk about how these primitive Teslas were such pioneers back in the day
The show you guys are describing, with a handful of cars, info, and seeing them run - it's Demo Days at the Simeone Museum in Philly. They bring out a few cars from their collection tied around a theme, the curators give a short lecture, and then drive the cars in the back lot.
Yes! Best collection I've been to. I was fortunate to have my 2005 STi featured at the Simeone for Subaru of America's Subaru Day. I've also attended a photography workshop there as well.
What an epic collection of cars. The Winner's Circle in particular -- 1927 Mercedes-Benz S-Type Sportwagen, 1936 Bugatti 57G “Tank”, 1938 Alfa Romeo 8c 2900B Mille Miglia Spider, 1952 Cunningham C-4R Roadster, 1958 Aston Martin DBR1.
Can't forget about the hippy car, the Porsche 917...and so much more. I learn new information every visit and there's still a ton I'll never know. The mechanics working there have a wealth of information and cool stories.
Coffee Crisp is fucking amazing! The one thing I miss from Canada
Classic SUV with a removable roof and a 2 seat sports car is the best 2 car solution. 4x4 for deep snow, roof off for summer, sports car for when you need more engagement
As someone who raced radio controlled cars at club, national and international level.
You get absolutely zero feedback from the car but you can catch understeer or oversteer moments and do so every single lap multiple times, your mind is powerful enough to learn ways to get by, you don't need feedback or steering feel.
Mr force feedback 😂😂
I have EPAS on my auto cross car also it doesn't matter at all.
Another great episode!
My 2-car solution is a Jeep Gladiator and a Hyundia Ioniq 5. Polar opposites yet I enjoy both for different reasons.
As someone in my early 20s (23) yes I find any of the aircooled 911s cool, probably more than I should
DTS saying "youths" will never not crack me up.
I'm friends with the guy in Miami who owns crazy BMW/Merc collection from the 80s/90s including Bruno Sacco's personal w201 190e still registered in his name, would be cool to have that car at your November anniversary meet
I think the beginning of the end is when they started doing electronic throttle bodies in the early 2000's. Our shop workhorse is a 2008 Grand Caravan with the antiquated 3.3L combined with e-throttle, and I can stab it repeatedly with absolutely no reaction.
Meanwhile I bought a beater 2007 Ford Freestar for $800... cable throttle. And the newest car I've seen with a cable-operated throttle is the 2010 Hyundai Elantra. Neither particular enthusiastic, but they're still the latest analog feeling vehicles I can think of.
Stupid Chrysler mini boats!!! Said the same thing before about the inlaws craptastic people mover.
I drive my ae86 3 out of 5 days a week to work because its so enjoyable and authentic. It has manual steering no ABS(sometimes I find ABS not to be authentic) no AC and I never use the radio and I love every minute of it had the car for over 20 years now and I don't foresee myself getting rid of it. I believe it was devolved in the late 70s or early 80s since the first model year was 83. Jason I don't know if you read these but have you ever considered getting getting a regular NA elise I think over all you will enjoy the experience more an NA 2zz is such a joy to ring out and considering you have 11 cars you don't really need it to be practical with TQ, just a thought.
41:28 is exactly what I found a R53 didn't do that I went to test drive that disappointed me coming from my E36 and to me that's a lot of the fun I find in just regular driving.
It also makes me think that it's part of what makes the car shrink around your surroundings but the fact that I could maneuver the Mini blindfolded at low speeds because the steering was similarly heavy being hydraulic...I dunno.. this might sound dumb but I wonder if front wheel drive has a real effect on what sort of steering feedback you can get vs rear wheel drive having never driven a Mk1 VW.
But this is just making me confirm how damn good my E36 is.
Also 53:15, I've been driving my Mk5 Golf for about 6 months, I learned to drive on the 316i and I know that car better than I know many things... when it started dancing around in my hands as I was making my way through the city just dodging regular Greek bullshit like mopeds and horrific bumps I kind of started to realize the Golf does nothing for me despite it being faster and that I have to sell it soon. I've vmaxxed it (in a closed course etc.) which I never would put up that much sustainted abuse on the BMW...but I don't care.
Since experiencing what it's like to have speed and power (even if it's barely 140hp for my Mk5 TSI), noise and feel hasn't faded the fun I used to have with the E36 barely being quicker than a limping Vespa. In fact, I appreciate it more. I still tell myself I would probably have a new M3 because I just like it and think it would be the right thing to do... my dad's Yaris Hybrid is a transportation pod.
If all new cars are as unengaging as that fridge sold as a car I might not wanna become an automotive journalist. What's the point?
but I hAVE to know. I gots to know. I must know. At least I have the palette cleanser and am fortunate enough to have experienced reality so far.
An anecdote I have is that my dad used to know a man who owned an orange 2.7 RS in Greece (since sold it, unfortunately, was hoping to meet him and it) and he was looking across the street at his neighbor who bought a brand new 300CE W124 coupe and he told my dad "look at the junk people buy these days". Who knows what people will be saying that about in years to come.
25:16 The guys chat in BMW morse code, and it is g-lorious. Great job with the clap and blonde wig, DTS!
best show yet, my age shows
" Jason...although you and Hyphen took great efforts to prevent me hearing your mumbling, I could see your lips move."
Glad to catch a new episode before driving to work!
47:20 Push people to Lucid transportation pods. We need the 3-motor hot hatch
Great talk about steering. It became blatantly obvious to me that BMW had lost it when I took my 128i in for yet another recall. I got a 330i loaner and the steering was dead with a capital "D". I could feel absolutely nothing through it. The engine pulled hard, and the chassis was considerably stiffer that the old E82's, but it was a bore to drive it. The hydraulic rack lets me feel the high frequency stuff perfectly. I can feel crosswinds in the steering wheel. I can feel when my tires dance over rain grooves. When the front wheels are near the limit, the high frequency vibrations cease, and I know it's time to really pay attention. It's simply a joy to drive, and it tracks like a laser on the highway. I plan on rebuilding everything that breaks on it until it's no longer legal to drive on the street.
Agree 100% on what is important in steering. When i was young, this was available in econoboxes and now it's rare, which is a shame. One thing to add: stability control also adds to the conversation with the driver and often that conversation can also be unclear (at least in pedestrian cars). Keep the modern features, but pay more attention to the driver interface (and I'm not talking about the infotainment screen!)
Are we getting near the point of Derek needing to applaud for 60 seconds each show until they finally do their Ferdinand Piech episode?
I own a 2001 Z28 ( made in 2000) which is unfortunate because its the right era but wrong year so I leave it home. I do enjoy going to Radwood but I didn't see any 4th gen Fbody cars at our local event last year (which is crazy given how many exist), aside from that personal grievance 🤣 I really love this event. Much like music of the same time period it immediately brings back memories and feelings from the 80s/90s and I could easily spend days lost in the nostalgia. I really hope to see these events continue into the future especially as the jelly bean blob designs take over the world.
I have a semi-serious hypothesis about decades, that is the style and tastes and look of the decade we associate with a decade actually start and end three years late; so what we think of as the 60s is really 1963-72, the 70s is 1973-82, etc. So what we think of as the 90s in terms of style and vibes really goes until 2002 or so. By this framing, long story short your Z28 is spiritually a Radwood car, even if it's not technically...especially because it's fundamentally still a 90s design that carried over into its last model years. ✊
@@Trendyflute I can appreciate that... especially as someone who was born 1 1/2 months too late to be "GenX" but identifies as. 🍻
Hagerty should make a shirt or hoodie for the Carmudgeon Show that says "We love you Palou"
That was a solid clap.
I have a Tesla Model 3 and a SAAB 9-3 Aero wagon with a 6 speed.
good clap! 😃
47:03 the question becomes, how does one DIY steering feel? Like its not impossible, and it shouldn’t be hard given a certain degree of reasonability. So what does one do? What fuse do ya pull, what bushings do you replace? Can I simply screw a bolt a tad tighter? (Questions as rhetorical vs lookin for actual answers here, unless you have em). Except for them steering boxes and literal steer by wire, it can’t be all doom and gloom with the power of tastefully modifying. Looking for actual info on steering based modification has been my greatest stumper, but atleast through this video I have more insight on what good steering should be.
I own a mk3 VW race car and a e39 daily and my ego has never been more inflated
Gotta love the two car solution!
Is anyone going to compliment Cammisa on his ffreshly-waxed legs, on show at Radwood?
Anyone notice the light coming from Derek’s lamp is cleaner and more refined than Jason’s scattered and unrefined lamp
I googled that BMW Z3 car and driver cover and there is a sweet gap between the headlight/fender and the hood on the passenger side
I test drove a Cavalier RS Convertible back in 2000 and something. Holy cowl shake, Batman. The amount of chassis flex was comical - it was like driving in one of those rubbery 1920s black and white cartoons.
So I missed the AMA. Jason, Derek, I ask you this:
Since I want an 88 16V, but also a 3rd gen Trans Am, should I just split the difference and get a 944 Turbo?
Also, it was awesome seeing you guys.
Also, I WAS dressed. #SonnyCrockett
@@AndreThompson925 I don't know if I saw you specifically, but I saw a Sonny Crocket walking around and threw him some props. I've owned a 3rd generation Formula and a MK2 16V GTI, and if buying again I'd get the MK2.
@@thepassionofthegoose5472 I was wearing a pink shirt and white pants.
I also checked in cars and spectators before the event started.
I have had a 1992 16v GTI and a 1987 Trans Am as well as a 1992 Z28. I think you're right.
Great, I just got to the part where Jason talks about building a MK3 Cabrio VR6 and now I want one. Can this happen in California and still pass smog?
@@AndreThompson925 I'm not sure what the Crocket I saw was wearing exactly, but I only saw one and he looked proper Crocket. I was wearing a Misfits shirt, puffer MC Hammer pants and Vans. I looked sorta period correct, but I could have easily passed for someone on Valencia looking for coffee. Regarding the VR6. I sold my MK2 in 2011 after giving up on doing a VR6 swap. The research I did turned me off to the idea because I didn't want to deal with smog, etc. Bought a Silver Smoke 190e 2.3-16 for less than the cost of the swap and was a happy camper. Clearly those days are over.
I think the best 2 car solution is probably
1. F-150 Lightning
2. Pick your car - mine is manual Mustang GT but I've considering an R32 or R34 (not GT-R can't afford,)
Weren't the panel gaps on Range Rovers supposed to be big to allow for flexing when off road ?
They would have to admit that they have a flexi chassis then and that’s universally a bad thing. Suspension is supposed to flex and move, not the chassis no matter what it is.
@@indiebekonnthat's a thing on the road, not crawling over rocks somewhere. Tyres on the ground is more critical than what keeps them there. Especially before the days that CAD helped stack and track all of the arithmetic to make stronger chassis feasible, and an era of general prosperity in the 90s and 00s to pay for it.
@@grievuspwn4g3 nope, a stiff chassis is essential off road too and Land Rover products were pretty stiff and tough(when not rotted out) unlike some monocoque competitors for example.
So while my older brother had a 1984 Accord Lx-i hatchback, i was dreaming of the ' 86 CRX si! That may still come true, I have realized a later dream of owning a BMW.
My new to me 2014 328d wagon is amazing! Sexy and practical (just like me). 😉
Looks are subjective. But so is driving feel. Most of us, even with a certain breath of experience, aren't going to have enough knowledge to know what makes a truly great handling car.
While i appreciate your view, it only goes so far. We all can't drive hundreds of cars to get a refined opinion. I know i love my Bimmer for it's great handling simply because of the crap that came before it. Is it the best? I don't know. Its the best I've driven.
Would i like everyone to have the best? Yes. But would most understand it? Or even appreciate it? I highly doubt it.
The way they describe cars interacting in the wild reminds me of population ecologists
Episode Idea: Listener submitted "rate my _ car garage" in the most curmudgeonly way possible.
My 3 car solution for example:
Tesla Model 3 Performance: Daily/Roadtripper
Lotus Elise: "Fun"/Autocross
Subaru Impreza: RallyCross/Winter Hooning
43:31 I guess the thing is nobody cares about that. In fact, most people just want a smooth ride because they never drive anywhere near the limit. Cars with low limits are driven by people who don't go there, cars with high limits set then so high it's nearly impossible to go there. But also, I remember car journalists complaining about stuff coming through on the steering wheel all the time in the past... So they're at least partially to blame 🤷♂️
u seem to want the festival of speed and revival in the states
You need a person with a long driveway, landscape and in NZ it worked. As long as there is variety
I can definitely agree with what you both say (in principle) for steering, but for me, every time I go to those older vehicles... the minimum bar on on-center and/or slop (precision) is just consistently not met for me.
I anticipate it relates to driving attentions, and the recognition that most driving is routine and not spirited, that with precise steering, one knows what the car does as a function of input. Input matching output, and the second it deviates from that, or suggests deviation from that, that's the indication for limits/condition shifts. If I can't trust the car to be consistent input to output on steering, a resulting lack of confidence on corner entry in particular is where I feel most disconcerted. And unlike texture (realistically), precision matters all the time. Nothing like having to saw at a wheel to park a flopping textured steering...
Then again, I also like CVTs for fun vehicles (snowmobiles etc), so perhaps I'm completely "trained wrong". (Surprise surprise, a non-automotive engineer)
Bump for 850csi content
I’ve been thinking about the 2-car solution myself lately. I’m not anti-EV, but not being able to charge at home is somewhat of a barrier to entry, and I do take road trips that would make range a concern (for now). So I’ve been asking myself what I’d get as probably my last gasoline powered daily driver if I were buying new, and it’s not a long list.
Since I’ll be keeping the Miata, I’m looking at sedans. They don’t need to be super fun, but I would like something I don’t hate driving.
First contender would be a four-cylinder Alfa Giulia. Yeah, I’d be a little concerned about durability, but these things have a great chassis. A Civic Si also sounds worth checking out. As a former Honda owner, I’d like to get back into one of their products, and this one seems to be the sweet spot for value, fun, and usability. And last, I’d have to consider a Camry TRD with the 301-hp 2GR V6. I mean, it’s the last of the midsize family sedans with stupidly powerful, big, NA sixes, and it’ll probably run for the next 30-40 years.
While I can think of other cars I might also want, all of them cost more than I really need to spend. And I can be remarkably cheap sometimes.
as an italian all i can about alfa-fiat is that engines are the only good things they can do, it's everything around it that falls apart :)
@@Moli571 One of my friends has had one for a few years now, and they've had good luck with it so far.
Do you think once EV gets widespread adaptation, ICE cars will head to the scrapper en masse? Will people care about regular, non performance versions of cars famous for their performance? (I.e. BMW M3s will probably survive, but what about the 323i that people get as their first "enthusiast" car?)
Steering feel is the one reason I maintain the worst car I've ever operated in my life is the Chevrolet Classic. Steering feel was ZERO, to the point I had no idea what the front tires were doing. One HAD to drive the car frustratingly slow because there was no way to know if any curve could be navigated at any speed above 0 mph. Even if that car was magically granted the road holding grip of a supercar, you STILL would have to drive it just as slow purely from the unconnected steering.
The Bruno Sacco show?...um, how is the Pierchasode coming?
Personally coming from racing simulators I think if the faking is good enough I would prefer it over no feedback, since in racing sims force feedback does help out a lot vs just having a dead wheel.
All hail the algorithm
"dont do drugs" from the people who bought a trashcan that wants a baggie just to let you know that what is not rusted is being pissed on the floor
So...
- the M8 Competition is too fast (as we could learn from an older episode);
- the other, similar german cars aren't fast enough.
Well ”rad” is also plainly: ”wheel”
Controversial opinion: since we can no longer have fun with modern technology, would we all be better off if manufacturers like BMW combined electric and manual simulators with the cars of our beloved past? If you can’t afford an E30 M3 Evo why not have the same experience with a good immersive (what’s better than reality?) simulator so you can have a relatively real experience? Not saying I’m right but it’s like reality and Gran Turismo combined? It’s better than nothing which seems to be where we’re headed.
Wearing a full on outfit at radwood that people will recognize is awkward. Sorry it just is. People always pick the over the top lame pop token 80s/90s fits when in reality styles from that period are still very relevant today so it’s much cooler to just wear a period correct vintage T that still looks good today or something like that.
First?
It’s not NorCal! It’s the bay! The bay is not NorCal!
I often forget that SF is pretty much in the middle of California
@@andrewyanowsky7219so does most of California
I’ve been in the bay my whole life, we are NorCal.
Any town above Fresno is Northern California. North Fork is the exact area. Politics plays a role in the division also. Back in the days of using maps, Mt. Diablo referenced North and Mt. Whitney for the South according to USGS. There is a Central Valley but not a central California.
Sorry to break it to you. That is northern CA.