Where Did the Trinity Come From?
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- Опубліковано 7 сер 2023
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The idea of the Trinity - that God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are different from each other and are all God, but there is only ONE God, is a central tenet of Christianity. But most Christians don't actually know what the doctrine really says, let alone where it came from (is it in the Bible?). In this episode we explain the factors that led to the formulation of the doctrine and see why it became so important to Christian thinking. But does it matter that the math doesn't work? (The three are one!) Or that it doesn't make logical sense?
-What exactly is the doctrine of the trinity?
-Does the idea of the Trinity appear anywhere in the Bible?
-The idea of the Trinity came about as an answer to a theological question - namely, if God e-plicitly states that he is the only god, how do we reconcile that with Jesus’ divinity and the presence of the Holy Spirit. Is that a fair understanding, or does it need nuancing?
The Trinity was just one answer to this particular question - how did non-orthodo Christian groups deal with this problem? Did they all see it as a problem?
-Are there other solutions that answer this question?
-What makes the Trinity different from polytheism?
-Who can we credit with the idea of the Trinity?
-How was it received at the time?
How did it come to be orthodo teaching, and how does it go from there being this really popular idea to just being the Trinity?
-What role did the Council of Nicea play?
This should be renamed "The Most Distracting Glasses Every Designed with Bart Ehrman."
Cute! No¿
haha you nailed it
@@singingsavage3056no he almost nailed it, he misspelled ever
Yeah, I had a very challenging time when I'd look at her. All I see is a large horizontal S.. I have a very hard time looking at people's faces when they have a lot of tattoos or animal piercings. I have to look away when talking to them. This was the same thing.
@@biblebadcopycatofcuneiform8210
A large vertical S? The S looks horizontal to me.
"Where did the Trinity come from?" = From the Imagination of a Human.
An imagination inspired and sponsored by the adversary?
I certainly think so.
God wills therefore God is trinitarian.
Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three.
God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian.
Where in what you expressed is there a text of scripture?
Sounds like you hold to your own personal phantasm.@@jamesmanm3623
@@jamesmanm3623 -- My god didn't need a weak A## "trinitarian", so =
My god >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your trini god
Praise be the Magic Toe Nail.
I will Pray for you.
From humans that think they know more than GOD.YAHWEH SAYS NOT TO BE DECEIVED
The fact that according to Christian doctrine Jesus prayed to himself & begged himself to spare himself before he was crucified because it was his will that he be gruesomely murdered is just mind-blowing. 🥴
You can't bring that up. Their answer will always be "You don't understand". Which of course can be translated as "I don't understand, and so can't explain it to you either"
@@ji8044 Blessed are those who aren't brain-raped by the aggressively religious...
Not Christian doctrine. But church doctrines.
No Christian will worship their leader Jesus. That is why they are Jesus' DISCIPLES.
@@tongakhan230 Whether you like it or not, most people on this planet who call themselves Christians think that Jesus is God, not merely a leader, & they worship him.
@@joejohnson6327 : Please read Jesus' words to the MANY so-called Christians before he does away with them (Matthew 7:23).
Christians are DISCIPLES of Jesus. Not his worshipers.
(John 13:35) By this all will know that you are MY DISCIPLES-if you have love among yourselves.”
So... basically they couldn't figure out any way to resolve the obvious inconsistencies that had piled up in the doctrine, and threw up their hands and said "it's a divine mystery"?
😂😂 basically
Same with science. Just look at quantum physics.
@@TullipPetal Ummm. No? Science works hard to find consistent explanations; it doesn't just say "it's a mystery!" and stop there.
Search Eli Soriano's doctrines. There is no mystery in there.Eli Soriano explained better.
@@user-oj7ox3mc1m well yeah :) He doesn't believe in the Trinity, so he has it easy; he just considers the three to be different entities (depending on exactly which of his statements you read). But the Catholics can't use that method. :)
Megan's glasses are messing with my brain today. I love them, but could never wear a frame like that without going cross-eyed, lol.
And this is what her likes are intending to do, IMO, which is why I had recommended under earlier episodes to look away from the screen to avoid seizures.
@@TheSoteriologist I dunno about all that
@@DJMarcO138 Bezmenov 84 _“Demoralisation“_ and _“destabilization“_
Yeah, the whole "half of infinity" thing is messing with my head. Sort of like the concept of the Trinity.
The glasses are like when you see a picture hanging crooked on a wall. You naturally want to reach out and adjust it. But you can't!!!!
I'm a graduate of Anglican Seminary. Bart's lectures send me back in time. The difference? I stay awake during these videos!
Thanks. That made me laugh.
@@kencreten7308 What there to understand? Nothing, nonsense.
OMG. She needs new glass frames. Can't watch or even listen to this. It seems she is as peculiar as her eyeglasses. Lululooney.
Anglican? Oh dear.
@@bayreuth79 no division in Christ please
Actually reading the Bible for what it says and what’s written is why I rejected the Trinity
1 John 5:5-9 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
@@jerkojerkic9349 Which proves my point
@@jerkojerkic9349You are aware 1 John 5:7 is a later addition, right? It isn't in any of the oldest manuscripts that we have.
@@jerkojerkic9349 Who was filling the role as "the word" because that was Jesus previously.?
@@dazzadizzy5308 The Word of God is Jesus Christ.
Interesting how divine doctrine was made by human consensus.
Well... uh.. you know, like ... uh, God was ... uh, what's the word, right, guiding people and stuff! heh Except for all those copying mistakes and editing over time.
Wow, very true.
And that too with a pagan directing affairs. Compare Acts 20:30.
@@tongakhan230 That’s also pretty much the case with the literature of the Bible.
@@thewb8329: The books included in the Bible were all complied with God's direction.
That is why the Bible has been translated into over 3,000 languages.
No other book has even reached the 100 translation mark.
The Bible has survived despite attempts to have it destroyed.
It must surely be of value to any TRUTH seeker.
It made no sense in Sunday School and it makes no sense now.
I think the Trinity is a prime example of design-by-committee 😉
indeed. and a man made concept. Tertullian actually didn't believe in the Trinity the same way it is described at the Nicene creed.
Not in the way Bart describes it. The Trinity is not an amalgamation or mish-mash of opposing or just different views. The committees merely chose the Trinity notion over competing views; they didn’t create it.
😂
@@jeffryphillipsburns
they "mereIy ch0se" it 0ver reaIity and truth
b0II0x is b0II0x
The concept of the Trinity existed long before the councils canonized it into official doctrine.
I love the point about Tertullian and how his writings came to be persevered because they just happened to fall in line with future consensus regarding the doctrine of the Trinity. Really makes you wonder what we lost to history from opposing viewpoints.
I like listening to him. He proves religion is nothing but men sitting on a panel discussion creating a religion for the gullible
@@monnieeeeyt7037 I don't really think Bart would agree that that is what religion is...
Yes, Tertullian is a preternatural genius. His Adversus Praxean is a short text bristling with so much of the later technical terminology but with a somewhat different sense (clarified in 1966 in the four volume study, La théologie trinitaire de Tertullian by Joseph Moingt SJ - who died a few years ago, still churning out massive books at age 104). He was also a brilliant writer, stylist, etc.
Tertullian was not "in line" with what came to be the orthodox view on the divinity of Christ. Tertullian used the metaphor of sunlight streaming through a window to explain the relationship between the father and the son. He said that just as one will refer to a sunbeam on the wall as "the sun" while knowing that the sun itself is a separate, burning body in the sky, so too one may refer to Jesus as "God", knowing that God, Himself, is a separate and distinct Being who only shines through Christ.
That's why I find it amusing when Christians dismiss certain ideas as heresies. Heresies are just the theories that had less powerful supporters who lost the historical debate. Which is why there are so many Christian denominations, and many of them disagree completely with all the others.
I just love listening to Bart. He explains everything succinctly.
The easiest way to explain Trinity is on the background of the Roman imperial cult where the dead Caesars was the fathers in the sky, the son being the word being the ruling emperor and the spirit being the genius of Rome which the emperor was supposed to be the incarnation of.
Very interesting. Is there a book about this?
I wrote an essay about the Trinity when I was in high school, I used Bart as one of my main sources and I ended up getting an A. The course was called 'Religion - Specialization'. Thanks Bart!
In high school? Never knew people took theology in high school, very cool though! Congrats on the A!
In Sweden we have 'specialization' courses in virtually all subjects, including religion. In those courses its all about producing a scientific research on chosen topics.@@harharharharharharharharha240
Doesn't sound factual. Sorry! What can anyone write about the Trinity.
It had to be a question. 'Is the Trinity scriptural or not'.
@@tongakhan230 You're wrong, though.
*True Jesus is in Islam*
* *Jews/Judaism rejects Jesus* as a prophet/God's messenger.
* *Christians believe that* Jesus was God incarnate and died as a sacrifice to redeem humans' sin.
* *Islam confirms who Jesus really was.* Jesus/Isa was sent by God to Israelites to teach monotheism & enforce God's law. (Quran 61:6, 4: 157-158, 5:72, 5:116-118, 19:21,32, , etc)
In the Gospel, *Jesus himself said he came/was sent only to Israelites.* He told Jews to worship God only and to teach Torah (of course to practice its law as well). (John 17:3, Matthew 5: 17-19, 10:6, 15:24, etc).
Some important laws in the Torah & OT:
* *God in Torah/OT is not human,* not born from a woman's womb, invisible, and will never die. (Genesis, Hosea, etc).
* *God in the Torah/OT strongly prohibits human sacrifice,* since it was pagan and witch practice (Leviticus, Jeremiah, etc).
The true Jesus is in Islam. So, *find out more about true Islam* from credible sources.
Thanks, Megan and Bart for a good video. Your contributions to the debates concerning Christianity are always enlightening. We would have been much poorer - spiritually and intellectually without it.
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
Thanks so much for this content Megan and Bart. I'm hooked!!
The "mystery of faith" of the trinity was explicitly the first issue with Christianity that I encountered growing up. I was raised Catholic, and during CCD I remember distinctly not comprehending how this was possible, realizing that it *was not* possible, and realizing that there were huge problems with the logical coherence with the whole thing. That started me down the path to agnostic atheism where I have lived comfortably ever since.
There are Christian denominations that don't accept trinity.
Have a try reading about Islam from authentic sources .
Pagan: But you worship three gods!
Christian, sticks fingers in ears and replies, "They are one, they are one, they are one!"
@@pacofgarcia5998 indeed
@@TheHookahSmokingCaterpillar*starts rocking back and forth in a fetal position with bloodshot eyes*
Truly enjoyable conversation, thank you.
As a Muslim and history enthusiast,
I really find this series very entertaining, informative, and thought provoking about the history of Jesus.
At least for me, I found it annoying when Muslims wanted to learn about Jesus, yet I see Christian apologists or ill-informed Christians use emotions, missionary tactics, and Orientalists’ propaganda. I think both theists and atheists can learn a lot of these clips.
Thanks Prof. Bart and Megan for your efforts and time.
God wills therefore God is trinitarian.
Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three.
God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom.
wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do".
God is WISDOM itself.
God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
I just want to say how much I appreciate and love these podcasts. You guys are great together. (And Megan's glasses are nuts, but swimming lessons followed by day care and then teaching Sumarian is so cool, random sartorial excess doesn't matter.)
The glasses really bothered me for some reason...lol.
@@samflynn3670Attention - getting? I love the glasses and delighted not to see strangely-colored hair.
@@samflynn3670 Well they are tad peculiar but whats life without a little eccentricity.
The glasses keep me feeling that either I'm cross-eyed or Megan is.
Every time I see Dr. Bart’s new video, it reminds me of a new toy my father would bring me when I was little.
Somehow I have the same feeling
Love Megan's questions. Simple, direct, and to the point. Very well organized.
The next episode sounds really interesting! This one was great too, as always. :)
To the question of different sources for the same author, and scholars debating them: I was in a church choir for some time, and beside many other pieces, we have sung Johann Sebastian Bach's St Matthew Passion and St John Passion. Johann Sebastian Bach wrote his music after the printing press was invented. And still, every time we got to the music sheets, our cantor gave us some small corrections to the music, because even the manuscripts of Johann Sebastian Bach of his own music differ, and there are debates if something is actually a speck of dirt on the manuscript or a correction, and if it's by his own hands or someone else's. Again and again, other copies of his works are found, and they carry some corrections, but not others, and there is a huge body of scholarly work tracking down the time line of Johann Sebastian Bach's own corrections to his own music.
Great lesson. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Megan- that is probably the coolest looking pair of glasses I’ve ever seen.
Bart and Megan explain the "mysteries" about Christianity in a coherent and logical fashion. As they turn out, religion is man-made and subject to the whims and guiles of their perpetrators who are masters in the art of mass psychology. Really, the paradigm is applicable to politics, economics, and all matters that concern humanity. Thank you, Bart and Megan, for such enlightening videos!
Idk dude.. YHWH gave Moses the Law. Unless you don't believe Moses or YHWH. Don't piss of YHWH
@@bubbag8895Ummm the word of god is unutterable dude… paradox
Christianity is man made
@@bubbag8895 The name YAHWEH is not mentioned in the New Testament at all
Thank you! Please continue with your work.
The trinity isn’t mysterious. It’s just nonsense. There is a difference.
There are serious logical and scriptural problems with the doctrine of the Trinity, but merely suggesting that it ought to be reconsidered is tantamount to blasphemy in most Christian circles. A couple of church councils met a long time ago and decided the matter, and, apparently, no one is allowed to question their assessment.
@@ObjectiveEthics You know... some other people said religion is about money. Now you're saying it's about control. I'm an atheist. I say religion is very complicated. If people come to something as simple as "control" or, "money." That definition is for their ease thought, perhaps, not for the sake of truth. Because the truth is far more complicated. That being said, I think no one likes to have their beliefs questions whether they firmly believe that BMW cars are the best, or belonging to a particular political group because they are - right, or believing in various Christian ideas.
The I have a problem with, Jesus being God,,😢 the Bible says he received immortality 😮 1st Timothy 6 verse 16 if Jesus is internal,, or not created, no beginning or no end, is that a bonus receiving immortality?, doesn't make sense, that's what I would have brought up at the, meaning of bishops, Revelation 1 verse 18 I was alive I was dead and behold I live into the ages of ages,,,, so he receives it after he died immortality a New Creation,,, we will be like Jesus, I would be hanged for saying that? We will be like Jesus and receive and put on immortality 1st Corinthians 15 verses 53 must read: so one of the internal or un created divine or the 3God head's, Jesus received immortality, the word means you have to be mortal to receive immortality if I was there, I would have mentioned that and 1st Corinthians 8 verse 5 & 6 many gods, many lords/ 6 to us (true Christian's) one God the father, one Lord Jesus, too easy to understand,,, your critic ❓🤔🧐
Robert,
Well said!!
@@greglogan7706 Robert I don't know if you're talking about my comments,? Straight to the point, 👉 Jesus died for us 🙏 a lot of people don't even know what die for us? Amazing,,, did Jesus ,his soul died for us, his body or flash? Or his spirit? One of them, two of them 🤔 or all of them 🤔❓ your critic ❓🤔🧐
Guys, HERE is The Savior
YaH The Heavenly FATHER (Genesis 1) HIMSELF was Who they Crucified/Pierced for our sins and “HERE IS THE PROOF”
From the Ancient Semitic:
"Yad He Vav He" is what Moshe (Moses) wrote, when Moses asked YaH His Name (Exodus 3)
Ancient Semitic Direct Translation
Yad - "Behold The Hand"
He - "Behold the Breath"
Vav - "Behold The NAIL"
Great episode. I could never believe in the Trinity based on logic which troubled me when I was a believer. Dr. Ehrman actually reinforced my lack of belief. Megan's Eyewear is "the bomb" (good).
John !: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
The glasses are wild this time. I think I like them but they are challenging me.
Keep up the good work
thanks keep the podcasts coming please
although I must say I was disappointed Professor Ehrman didn’t know Gudea, especially considering that msny people think some bible stories come from mesopotamia, such as noah ark
👏🙂
Very interesting.
Great video.
Super bummed I missed the conference! I would have totally jumped on that
I love the intro because it’s like” the only show where Bart Ehrman does Bart Ehrman things” but it doesn’t sound like that if you don’t think about it too much
You are so cool ! I love all of your eye glasses and all the colors you implement, you are a joy! Professor I love your host and I love this program and I’m so grateful.
I really like the enthusiasm Bart brings to his talks. He is a wonderful communicator. What I like about him most is he doesnt appear to have an agenda. He is a truth seeker. Megan is a perfect host too. Im reading MacDairmaid's book again and the historical and personal background that Bart provides fills in some gaps and makes it a whole lot more interesting. Bart explains the Arian heresy in much greater detail than I have seen before. I also delight in the way he eviscerates Brown. Calling Brown out for the liar he is.
Trump brings plenty of enthusiasm to his telling of LIES also!
@@donaldcarpenter5328 what does that even mean? I live in Australia
@@donaldcarpenter5328 , If you can't bring anything useful to the conversation, please don't comment!
Another great great discussion. Amazing stuff
Thanks Tim, glad you're here! - Social Media Team
Dope glasses!!! Love your style!!!
"Her flight back to New York booked, Jennifer had seven days to pull the final script together and send it off. But they were still three scripts, at least: The Screenwriter, The Architect, and The Gate. Was it a trilogy? A triptych? A Trinity? A Trimurti? Were they each manifestations of the same thing?" - from 'Frame 39', a novel, by Rick Shands
How can one with a logical mind accept the trinity as true? Honestly I will never be able to fathom that.
One accepts it not with a logical mind, but by faith.
@@oliverbrownlow5615 the same can be said to support any fallacy. You have to put the bar somewhere
@@oliverbrownlow5615 ...faith in what ?? Because some pope said so ?? No way, the Bible clearly shows that the trinity is nonsense. I put my faith in the written word not what some confused people voted on.Truth is not up to a vote, either it is or is'nt...
The same could be said for quantum physics. Although quantum physics has the benefit of empirical evidence.
Consider the particle/wave duality of light
MEGAN, I just noticed your glasses. I kept looking at them and was thinking something looks different. Finally, I realized the design. They are absolutely the coolest looking glasses I’ve ever seen! What a beautiful design. I’m a male, but would like to see what designs are offered to males. Who designed them or what company sells this designers glasses? Very cool looking.
Could you guys please stop simping for her? We come here to listen to Bart, not the attention seeking woman.
A pint with friends is preferred.
Thank you for these wonderful and informative shows! Megan, thank you for assembling these with Bart and for sharing about your translating! Also: those glasses are awesome.
Amen re: the glasses!!!
Great episode!
I always love seeing Megan's different looks, but those glasses are making me dizzy! 😸
Simply put, this doctrine required over three centuries to become fully developed, not becoming orthodox until the Council of Constantinople in 360 CE when the ομοουσιον (same essence) position was officially ratified, and the competing ετεροουσιον (different essence) was officially anathematized.
381 AD.
The satanic lie took some time to develop.
@@toreyhorton1789 Yes. It was plagiarized from Greek philosophers
gabrieI eddy
yes indeed, its an iIIustrati0n 0f h0w they made it up as they went aI0ng and created grand reIigi0us c0unciIs and grand new w0rds t0 f0rmaIise and Iegitimize their idi0cy
n0 number 0f reIigi0us c0unciIs 0r ratificati0ns 0f 0rth0d0xy wiII make the st0ry m0re credibIe
especiaIIy when y0u read the bibIe
it has zer0 credibiIity
Romans 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the Creator, who is praised forever.
No surprise that the apostate church had the name Roman in it.
I liked this. Excellent recap. There is a two-dimensional diagram for the Trinity used in England illustrating Bishop Alexander's assertions. Good to hear Bart is in Wimbledon for dinner with bloggers.
lol
They have certainly disbelieved who say, “Allah is the third of three.” And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.(Quran 5:73)
God wills therefore God is trinitarian.
Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three.
God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom.
wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do".
God is WISDOM itself.
God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
Your Allah is not even the true God so no one cares!
Well, it’s fortunate that Trinitarian Christians don’t say that then isn’t it?
Hmm, as for scribal text changes, I remember some pointed remarks about a German translation of an English sf story - I think an A. E. van Voigt one - where, for whatever reason, the translator added an excessively brutal extra scene that doesn't really fit with the rest of the text. I think I have that book somewhere, but I probably cannot find it with reasonable effort. Even figuring that out must have an interesting story behind it.
And John Hamer (centreplace) is streaming a lecture on trinity in a few hours. Good Times.
Great gardening tip. Always plant things in threes or another ODD grouping!
I really like Dr Bart.. it is so fun listening to you guys..
Bart, I love your inquiring mind and thank you for attempting to honestly answer some of the most troubling questions 'believers' and 'nonbelievers' continuously ask. Perhaps it would be helpful for your audiences if you explored and commented on the psychology of the belief phenomenon itself AND the various philosophies of the numerous, different religions being professed TODAY. I realize this will require a countless number of interviews, but I am fascinated by the forever changing eyewear and hair color choices by that brilliant and beautiful young lady challenging you with thought-provoking questions.😇
Psychology and Western Religion has about 100 pages on the trinity. I came to this podcast out of an interest in the psychology of religion.
Somehow, I had always compared the trinity to a user interface for a video game; the father in the divine realm is the user, the son was the modeled avatar/player character who interacts with the inhabitants of the world, the holy spirit was the in-game console that the user can use to debug the game or break the physics engine lmao
Not saying that my system of comparison was better or worse than others, but that's how I made sense of it as a kid
Could be more than a strange metaphor... if we are indeed living in a simulation. 😮
Thanks, there was a shortage of bad Trinity analogies out there.
😂 but how are those three things equal? And how do they have the same use/power/abilities?
The three you've gave are completely different with different abilities which goes agaisnt the trinity that teaches that all the persons in the godhead are EQUAL IN ABILITY. (Meaning, what one can do, the other can too)
It is true that God could make a rock so big he could not lift it, but he could lift it. Trinity doesn’t need to be logical it’s just how god reveiled himself to us
Equal in ability? It's the same being, but different functions @@TheKingofdans
Besides this being the coolest UA-cam channel, it's also the home of the coolest eyeglass frames.
Cool infinity glasses, Megan!
Megan's glasses are fabulous!!
@@ObjectiveEthics Perhaps you should check up your - with your -.
They are a distraction
@@ObjectiveEthics I've had them checked. They're perfect.
@@michaelashley2855 a very pleasant one
I question whether most Christians truly believe in the orthodox trinity. I dont see a way to make a cogent argument that Jesus was anything but subordinate ro God. Then there is the holy spirit which is something else altogether. When ive talked to people about the trinity casually, pretty much everyone seems to actually think more in terms of tritheism rather than the one god-three parts.
Seems most likely that the trinity was invented ro be able to claim Christianity is monotheist in order to preserve a connection with Judaism for legitimacy purposes.
Those glasses are amazing! And Megan's glasses are nice too.😊❤❤
This was an excellent presentation; Megan's questions were concise and spot on. Please consider a similar focused discussion on the Eucharist. Wycliffe's De Eucharistia got him in big trouble even though he was a trinitarian right?
Oh mister professor. Thanks for sharing such profound wisdommmm.
"The Father, Son,....and that other guy."
That's kind of how it was presented to us.
and the uncle?
And every Christian I've ever met actually worships the unholy trinity Satan Lucifer and the unholy spirit. Just like their Bible says they would. Intelligence is under rated by the religious.
The Bible is very clear about these matters. No one has read religious texts for themselves in centuries it seems.
The pigeon.
God wills therefore God is trinitarian.
Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three.
God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom.
wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do".
God is WISDOM itself.
God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
Thank you for telling us the truth.
What you see here is an opinion of one skeptic Bible scholar. It actually stands in a minority amongst Bible scholars! So it's not the truth but an opinion!
@@Bullcutter*skeptic
@@Bullcuttermost bible scholars are christians who have to sign a statement of faith at their institutions. So I'll take a skeptic's opinion any day over that.
@@Bullcutteractually Dr Erhman's opinions normally represent the majority of Bible "scholars." Most people who've been to mainline seminaries like to feed their kids too much to reveal the common understanding they were taught and loose their job. Real Bible scholarship "don't preach." Preventing the loss of faith due to an understanding of the real text is a real problem for conservatives.
If that were so, no publisher worth their salt will publish them! But we have numerous Bible scholars with their work published by top universities! Dr. Ehrmans studied under the late Professor Bruce Metzger, a world-renowned Bible scholar of Greek New Testament. He wouldn't agree with Dr. Ehrman's theology! Nor will Dr Don Carson, another eminent Bible scholar. Dr. Ehrman stands alone in refutation of major tenants of Christianity!
Where did you get those specs Megan. They are really cool
This particular pair is a bit much for me. I really do wonder though how she gets a new pair nearly every week. What's her glasses budget like?
So sad I couldn't be at your London dinner, I live here. I need to pay more attention to stuff!!!! ☹️☹️☹️
I have a question for Dr Ehrman. A common practice among Christians is to pray asking God for very specific interventions that are personally meaningful here on Earth, such as protection for loved ones, or for certain individuals to win elections, or to obtain certain financial/material goals, etc. I'm not sure this practice is entirely biblical in origin? I'm guessing there may be other practices and beliefs among Christians that are commonly thought to be from the Bible, but arguably are not? Perhaps this would make for an interesting subject of your podcast? Thanks for considering this idea. 🙂
Characters from the Bible prayed for all kinds of very specific crap all the time. Duh.
It is a strange practice if you believe in an omniscient and Omni-benevolent God. That sort of God wouldn’t need you to petition him. He would already know and care and would have have already done He thought best, which would necessarily HAVE been best. Of course there was a very long tradition of attempting to appease the gods and offering sacrifices for the gods. This long tradition long predates Christianity. Christianity mindlessly continues the tradition without worrying about the inevitable contradictions.
@jeffryphillipsburns the most common explanation I've heard is that God knows what you want, but also wants you to ask for it as a means of maintaining a relationship. Kind of like parents with toddlers who tell them to ask for what they want, despite it sometimes being obvious to the parents (except that parents do this to teach socially expected bevahiour instead of build relationship)
Praying makes a lot of people feel better about being out of control. When there is absolutely nothing which you can do to affect an outcome, you can still occupy yourself with wasting your breath directing wishes to imaginary friends.
Jesus gave his disciples apriority listing on what to pray for. Please read Matthew 6:9-13.
Check it out.
BTW these worldly scholars cannot explain what the Bible teaches. God veils the truth from such ones. cf Matthew 11:25,26.
Another excellent podcast. I would be interested in a podcast on when and how the Pope became infallible.
He's only considered infallible when issuing Papal Bulls.
It has been ___[Blank]___ days since last papal error. 😂😂😂
@@kidslovesatan34-- and yet the pope won't spare the bulls from Spanish bullfighting. 🤔
I love the fact that the centrality of Christian theology is a fudge. But, I suppose, if you already believe Christ rose from the dead, one more nonsensical thing isn't going to shake your belief.
Or rather “… if you already believe Christ rose from the dead, one more nonsensical thing is NOT going to shake your belief.”
I don’t know if anyone commented on Megan’s glasses, but they are FIRE!!🔥
I would argue Jesus didn’t equate the Holy Spirit with himself… he himself said when he goes to heaven he will send the holy spirt, there is clear separation
I'm not a believer, but... Casper the Ghost comes to my mind.
@@kencreten7308 I used to buy Casper comic books as a child, but I don’t see the connection. Did Casper divide into sub-entities, and I’m just forgetting?
I've always thought of the Holy Spirit as our conscious to do good things not bad.When we fail to do good we feel bad and then correct it. ❤
@@brucecoleman1509 I love that sentiment, I only wish it was that easy… but you get into spirit of God vs Holy Spirit talk, did the Holy Spirit even exist before Jesus said he would send it, and so on… but that is not a bad thought
@Thoughtpologetics It's a mystery ain't it.Peace Brother
Good to see a symbol from Taoism incorporated into this podcast through Megan's Yin-Yang glasses...
Yin-yang is 1 circle, not 2, that's more like infinity...
I remember learning about Gudea in high school, back in 1985 - I don't know what Bart is talking about
I lived with my wife and kids in Ashtead for a year, just down the road from Wimbledon. Surrey is super!
Bart is now an honorary Womble
Another thing about Constantine that Bart doesn’t get around to mentioning is that Constantine himself died as a converted Arian.
He also "fails" to mention many other things. "Fails" might be a little strong?
Brilliant as usual.....plus her glasses are super cool.
If we are made in the image of God, and God is three person's, where are your other two persons?
God wills therefore God is trinitarian.
Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three.
God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom.
wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do".
God is WISDOM itself.
God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
That's awesome what Megan said she needed to do, swimming lessons, and teaching Sumerian at night. That's fantastic and made me laugh. My days are more like, do fiddly stuff, then make food.
Is it ironic that Megan is wearing half of an infinity symbol?
@@charlespolk5221 I am strongly of the opinion that Megan is bad ass enough of that she gets to choose any glasses she wants, without my comment. I can say that she's never asked my opinion. I'm a little bothered that people even bring it up. But, they are interesting. I do see that.
@@kencreten7308 Humor. It makes life worth living. (PS I adore Megan. I wish I was smart enough to take her classes! )
Prof. Ehrman speaks here only about the biblical origins of the conception of Trinity. But obviously this deification of Christ and "Lord's Spirit", eventually to equality with Yahweh, has also background in the Greek thought, especially Middle Platonist (Philo and his colleagues from Alexandria). I'm curious what prof. Ehrman could say about that.
The event seems to be something like a ecumenical council. How interesting! Count me in.
Draw the triangle method was my go to.
So much history condensed in the series.... I love it!
My favorite part is when I hear tidbits about when stuff was added or taken away from the Bible...like that verse in 1st John.
I wish Bart would do a short series like.... Super condensed... On important passages in the Bible that were added or deleted on purpose to make a theological point.... And the time period it is historically believed to be added.
The one that blew my mind was a lot of the original books of Luke didn't have the first portion that included jesus's infancy narrative...
That and the story of the adulterous woman in John, that was added much later.
That would be a good talk.
I don't think anything was taken away in the case of Luke's gospel regarding Jesus's infancy. Luke states his purpose at the beginning of his text, which was to gather and then order eyewitness accounts of Christ. He wrote the narrative to Theophilus, this, to assure him that what he had learned of Christ was true.
_"Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, _*_just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also,_*_ having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed."_
The point here is that Luke's motive was not to account for everything that occurred in Christ's life, but only what he himself could corroborate from eyewitnesses. Matthew's gospel is widely considered to have come at least a decade prior to Luke's. And yet it includes the narrative of The Holy Family's journey to Egypt, which is missing in Luke's gospel. So why would anyone use Luke's account to suggest that the Egypt journey never occurred? Luke seemed focused upon eyewitness accounts. So it could be that he did not record the Egyptian journey because he could not find anyone who was yet alive and who had witnessed such a remote and undoubtedly private experience.
As for 1 John 5:7-8, the verses were not inserted into "The Bible." They were inserted only in _The Textus Receptus,_ which was compiled by Erasmus, and later used by translations such as the KJV. But it was Erasmus himself who told us that the verses should be held in suspicion. We have known about them from their beginning. However, the fact that they were added does not mean that the doctrine of The Trinity is unbiblical or was made up out of whole cloth. As Erhman says here, the rest of the Bible declares that God is One, that Jesus is God, that The Holy Spirit is God, and that The Father is God. And in Matthew 3:16-17 the Bible shows all three of these Persons being present and active simultaneously:
_"As soon as Jesus (Person #2) was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God (Person #3) descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven (Person #1) said, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.'”_
There was only one solution to this, and Modalism was not it. Christians had accepted that The Father, the Son, and the Spirit were each God even before Nicea. But they had no formal doctrine to harmonize the belief. The ecumenical meetings merely formalized what the church generally believed. That is why there was no contest between the various points of view in these meetings. Trinitarianism had always existed between the texts. They simply formalized it, chiefly because heretics were trying to introduce doctrines that were contrary to the texts.
Some childish questions I’ve always had - (1) Do all members of the Trinity know about each other. (2). Do they talk to each other? Probably not since this would be more like taking to one’s self. (3) Do they always agree? I just have always found the Trinity to be confusing.
The Trinity is really confusing because it is a Miracle. How could Jesus be born from a Virgin mother? Where did half of his chromosomes come from? How could Jesus rise from the dead, when reverse entropy is against the laws of Thermodynamics? How could you cram all pairs of all animals in an Ark and survive the Great Flood? How could Moses possibly part the Red Sea using just his walking stick?
All miracles are confusing. You cannot accept and believe 1 miracle, and reject the other miracles.
I think of it as Vishnu (Father), Krishna (“Son” who is actually the earthly avatar of the Father) , and Shakti (Spirit, which is the energetic, more feminine form of the Father). In the Bible, Jesus talks to/prays to God a lot. I don’t know how Christians reconcile that, if they eWorld accept that it would need to be reconciled.
@wotchermystic2335
You cannot attempt to reconcile how Jesus prays to God a lot, and yet Jesus and God are one and the same.
Otherwise, you would also need to reconcile how Noah was able to cram a pair of all animals on Earth in his Ark, or why God had to put the Forbidden Tree near Adam & Eve. God could have built an impenetrable fence around it.
hi,do u read quran,peace
Yes, the three members of the Trinity know about each other, with perfect knowledge. They commune with one another, which is their life in eternity. They share the one divine intellect and will, therefore they always agree.
Megan has the best style. Bart has the best Public History podcast.
Paused @13:19
In CCD (catechism class) in the 1980s the tri-modal approach was explained to us as similar to H2O. Water can change between solid, liquid and gas forms, but it remains water.
The brothers who taught us really embraced the modernization allowed by Vatican II.
That's Modalism Patrick!
My issue is the bible doesnt say "Trinity" and it doesnt say they are equal. In Jesus dwelt the fullness of God, but the Son is certainly not equal to the Father...The bible simply doesnt support the Trinity doctrine.
"in Jesus dwelt the fullness of God". What does that even mean? It sound a bit like porn to be honest.
@@ohana8535hahaha your mind is in the gutter and I love it lol
The trinity is something that developed over the centuries. Just like most other things in Christian theology.
@@jp783 😁
The Bible doesn’t spell out the Trinity doctrine, but it engenders it by contradicting itself. The Trinity doctrine is an attempt to resolve certain contradictions in the Bible. Unfortunately, the Trinity doctrine is itself contradictory. The only real way to resolve the contradictions is to renounce the basic tenets of Christian faith. Jesus is not God, never was God, and didn’t become God. He was an itinerant self-appointed preacher with certain religious ideas, certain ethical ideas certain and devoted followers. When Jesus was arrested, tortured, and killed, his followers tried to come to terms with his death, the manner of his death, and the circumstance that Jesus’s central prediction did not come true. That attempt to come to terms initiated Christianity.
Jesus said he that sent me is greater than I
Jesus is talking about his flesh, his human nature.
Colossians 1:15 says specifically Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God.
@@douglasboyd8475who is greater than him?
Human nature of Christ speaking.
As a human he hungered. He prayed. He was tempted. As God in the flesh, he calmed storms with a word. As God He walked on water. As God, He healed every disease, He raised the dead, He turned a lunch into a Buffett. He turned water into wine. He opened blinded eyes.
Revelation 1:8 it says that he is the Almighty…. That means Yahweh. The God of the universe.
@@douglasboyd8475 who made Jesus performing miracle??
@@KhabibTime-cb4ym
His Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:9,10
Galatians 4:6
Philippians 1:19
1 Peter 1:10,11
2 Corinthians 3:17
All of those verses say that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus Christ. That’s why when the Holy Spirit is inside you the Bible says that Jesus is inside you.
Christ IN YOU the hope of glory.
Anyone that has the spirit inside them has Christ on the inside of them.
It’s how you love the way that he does. It’s how you treat people the way that he does. It’s how you have compassion on people the way that he does.
Thank you for speaking the truth in love.
Love this topic, thnx for upload🙏👍
OMG, those glasses. I like Megan, but those are a little distracting.
Early Christians knew a good deal: three Gods for the worship of one.
God wills therefore God is trinitarian.
Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three.
God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom.
wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do".
God is WISDOM itself.
God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
And her hair! How does she have time! With three kids and professional commitments. I am in awe
Megan's frames stole the show. I was trying to listen, but those spectacles kept stealing my attention. I had to turn off my monitor to listen attentively.
Can someone give me the backstory on how these two ended up doing this podcast together
Common affinity for round eyeglasses.
Her husband is also a Bible scholar. Bart and he both appear on Derek Lambert's channel, Mythvision
Guys, HERE is The Savior
YaH The Heavenly FATHER (Genesis 1) HIMSELF was Who they Crucified/Pierced for our sins and “HERE IS THE PROOF”
From the Ancient Semitic:
"Yad He Vav He" is what Moshe (Moses) wrote, when Moses asked YaH His Name (Exodus 3)
Ancient Semitic Direct Translation
Yad - "Behold The Hand"
He - "Behold the Breath"
Vav - "Behold The NAIL"
Bart neglected to mention that modalism involves the notion that God only appears to us in 3 different modes. Augustine in his De Trinitate also believed that God is one in three modes- but he thought that those modes were ad intra. The immanent trinity is the economic trinity. The son is the image of the father and the spirit is the love of that self-reflected image. One God the father in three modalities.
God wills therefore God is trinitarian.
Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three.
God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom.
wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do".
God is WISDOM itself.
God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
@@jamesmanm3623 i love going into youtube comments and seeing idiots talk as if they are the best philosopher to ever walk this earth lmao
@@rhythmvij7525 please , be charitable to educate someone like myself, for according to Socrates "piety is to educate one's fellow citizens"
4:56
This sounds a lot like a Zen concept.
If you think you know it, then you don't know it.
Can't stop looking at Megan's glasses.
From a religious point of view, how can a council made up of humans decide how something divine works? Genuine question, I'm struggling to understand it.
Because it is not divine.
That's why we (muslims) only build our beliefs on explicit verses from the Quran, we don't juste take some ambigious verses and seek an interpretation that support our weird assumptions about God. I feel bad for christians who have to deal with this everytime they have to pray.
Megan's glasses holy shit. This is what the future was supposed to look like. Thank you.
Yesss to those glasses 😍!
Useful information - thank you