Evil. Hell. Slavery: 10 Challenges to Faith
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- Опубліковано 25 гру 2022
- In this video, I'm tackling the top 10 objections to Christianity that I often hear from skeptics and nonbelievers. I'm joined by Doug Groothuis who is a Christian theologian, philosopher, and author who has a Ph.D. in philosophy. He has taught at Denver Seminary in Colorado and has written extensively on topics related to apologetics, theology, and philosophy. Some of his books include "Unmasking the New Age," "Christian Apologetics: A Comprehensive Case for Biblical Faith," and "On Jesus." He is also a speaker and has spoken at conferences and events on topics related to faith and apologetics. We discuss topics from the problem of evil and suffering, to the death and resurrection of Jesus, I'll be addressing these objections head on and offering some helpful responses and perspective. Whether you're a Christian looking to better understand and defend your faith, or someone simply seeking to better understand the Christian worldview, I hope this video is helpful for you!
Make sure to subscribe and check out some of my other videos for more on Christianity, Theology and other aspects of culture!
READ: Christian Apologetics: A Comprehensive Case for Biblical Faith, by Douglas Groothuis (amzn.to/3jr4tOO)
READ: A Rebel's Manifesto, by Sean McDowell (amzn.to/3CHaY5U)
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Timestamps for the 10 challenges:
0:57 - How can a loving and good God allow so much evil in the world?
5:49 - How can a loving God send someone to hell?
11:18 - Why is God so hidden?
15:18 - What about those who have never heard (of God)?
19:12 - If Christianity is true, why is there so much abuse and damage done through the church?
21:30 - Isn't the cross an example of divine child abuse?
25:43 - Is Christianity racist since the Bible was used to promote and justify slavery?
30:38 - Is Christianity homophobic and hateful towards the LGBTQ community?
35:05 - Is Christianity at war with science?
39:00 - Is Christianity sexist?
Thanks so much!
@@SeanMcDowell Dr., I have a question regardng the preaching of scripture. While many Christians are quick to quote scripture at individuals or even groups of people they feel are sinning, they seem to be woefully neglectful of quoting scripture to others that they perhaps feel less inclined to judge for various reasons. For example, in Matthew 25:32-46 Christ makes it quite clear that we are mandated to care and advocate for the poor, the sick, the incarcerated, and the marginalized, and clearly states that those who do for "the Least of These" are doing for Him, and will go to their "reward"...BUT He also says that those who do not do for them are NOT doing for Him, and will go to their "Eternal Punishment". Yet, I NEVER hear any pastors telling people that they are in danger of Hell if they ignore the poor and the needy, and yet Christ has said this. This (neglect of the poor and needy) was, by the way, the actual "Sin of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:49). Also, Christ tells us that the rich are in danger of Hell ("Woe to the rich, for they already have their reward" and "It is easier for a camel to travel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God"). Once again, I NEVER hear ministers EVER preach to rich Christians that they are in danger of Hell. Why do you feel there is this hypocrisy among some Christians? Also, although we are cautioned by Christ to avoid judging altogether unless we ourselves are without sin ("Judge not lest YOU be judged"..."let he who is WITHOUT SIN cast the first stone"..."We are all sinners, and ALL fall short of the glory of God"), still Christ allows that if we must judge that we do it "righteously". The problem I see in the world today is that many are judging out of contempt or hatred for those they are judging, and when that is the case that is the opposite of righteous judging. I would appreciate your thoughts on these points I have brought up. God bless
Very helpful works of questions !!🙌🙌🙌praise Jesus
@@SeanMcDowell
Hell? Lewd fellows of a baser sort ie. mendacious Jacklegs, have tampered with scripture. If you are thrown into hell you will burn forever DAY AND NIGHT. God is going to create a NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH, without DAY AND NIGHT. Day and night does not exist in heaven, only light, day and night only occurs on earth. Day and night will uncreated, and everything pertaining to this finite time. There has never been day or night in heaven, death is an unconscious state, A=B, Sean death is conscience eternally A = Bob death is unconscious eternally B. Hence Sean, once again your life is impossible, either death spiritually or carnal is conscience or unconsciousness. GRASSHOPPER last time I checked carnal death is unconscious hence spiritual death is unconscious. Dah... your so stupid, Logic 101 instructor, not false teacher yes, according to Logic 101.❤🤩🤩😎
@@granvillesimmons6033 Wonderfully expressed questions!
Thanks Sean for raising these objections. While an attempt was made to explain these, I found these arguments very weak. They are probably aimed at already believing christians, but will not do anything to convince non-believers.
I agree 100%
Thank you for saying it. Question one was so weak it took me out immediately. So many problems about the way that question is answered alone have me doubting these guys' credibility to discuss these actual good questions.
I agree. Sadly, judging from to majority of these comments, the sheep are none to the wiser.
I feel these answers are simple because the answers really are just that simple
I loved when you were talking about how everyone has probably heard from God and knows about Jesus. It reminds me of something I saw on a Christian show years ago where someone was talking about his meeting with a missionary and how he went into an untouched jungle somewhere to people who had never seen anyone outside of their tribe. He had an interpreter with him and the odd thing was, that these people communicate in clicks and whistles and that sort of thing. And when he brought up Jesus, they got excited and said they knew about Him because the wind through the trees had been talking to them about Jesus for years. Mind blowing! But that is how our God works. (Sorry I don't remember details -- it was a long time ago)
Have you ever heard the story of Hellen Keller? We all k ow she had a slew of disabilities but over came them and when her teacher taught her about God she got really excited and said that she had always knew him but didn’t know his name. It says God reveals Himself to everyone we just have to take the blinders of the world off long enough to see Him.
There are so many examples of Christians lying about stories like this.
I am very well read of the Christian sacred text. I have read the Russian orthodox version too, and Enoch which is in the Ethiopian connon. I figure it is well there is no God as according the the Christian holy texts their God is a work a supreme evil.
Thank you Dana for sharing such an AWESOME testimony! You BLESSED my heart. God YHWH bless you! 💖
@@Laborman17God takes the blinders off the unbeliever (2 Cor 4:4)
This is one of the best videos to support atheism produced by two Christians.
Dr Groothuis’s Apologetics book was a Christmas gift I was grateful to purchase for myself. :) Thank you both for all that you do!
1) How can a loving God allow so much evil.... original sin, man chose to follow Satan
2) How can a loving God send someone to hell... original sin, all men are born spiritually dead in Satan's Kingdom
3) Why is God hidden.... He is not hidden to His saints
4) What about those who never heard of God... they are the same as #2
5) Why so much abuse in churches... unsaved "tares", sown by Satan infiltrate the church
6) Is the cross child abuse... what a retarded question. The Cross was Atonement for His sheep
7) Is Christianity racist... No, God saves Jews and Gentiles
8) Is Christianity homophobic... No, the wages of sin is death
9) Is Christianity at war with science... no, science wars against the Truth
10) Is Christianity sexist... no, man is the head of woman as Christ is the head of man
Wonderful! It's a great read!
Sean the amount of jealousy I have for the students in highschool who get you as their bible teacher is massive. I also had great apologetics teachers and I am thankful they get an amazing teacher like you as well! Obviously I’m not really jealous but I think it’s super cool they get you. I hope to one day help students or just younger kids with questions about the Christian faith. Keep up the good work Sean!
1) How can a loving God allow so much evil.... original sin, man chose to follow Satan
2) How can a loving God send someone to hell... original sin, all men are born spiritually dead in Satan's Kingdom
3) Why is God hidden.... He is not hidden to His saints
4) What about those who never heard of God... they are the same as #2
5) Why so much abuse in churches... unsaved "tares", sown by Satan infiltrate the church
6) Is the cross child abuse... what a retarded question. The Cross was Atonement for His sheep
7) Is Christianity racist... No, God saves Jews and Gentiles
8) Is Christianity homophobic... No, the wages of sin is death
9) Is Christianity at war with science... no, science wars against the Truth
10) Is Christianity sexist... no, man is the head of woman as Christ is the head of man
You two can always do another ten challenges in a subsequent session. Thanks so much for this one.
1) How can a loving God allow so much evil.... original sin, man chose to follow Satan
2) How can a loving God send someone to hell... original sin, all men are born spiritually dead in Satan's Kingdom
3) Why is God hidden.... He is not hidden to His saints
4) What about those who never heard of God... they are the same as #2
5) Why so much abuse in churches... unsaved "tares", sown by Satan infiltrate the church
6) Is the cross child abuse... what a retarded question. The Cross was Atonement for His sheep
7) Is Christianity racist... No, God saves Jews and Gentiles
8) Is Christianity homophobic... No, the wages of sin is death
9) Is Christianity at war with science... no, science wars against the Truth
10) Is Christianity sexist... no, man is the head of woman as Christ is the head of man
We might have to!
What about discuss with someone knowledgeable of the Bible. So they can just make up stuff to avoid uncomfortable issues
Doug Bighouse, so (as his name translates in one of our dialects, here in Mzantsi) has come to fill the gap left by the other recently deceased apologist!!!
Truly the Lord always has a witness/representative among his people at all material times!!
Praise Jesus!
I love meeting these wonderful author on this channel. Thanks Sean (love ETDAV, my first apologeties book).
Wow, that’s cool you started with Evidence!
I have to be honest -- as a professing Christian who grew up in a homeschooling, conservative, evangelical setting, I found Professor Groothius' explanations unpersuasive and unhelpful. In particular, I was struck by how is philosophical answers telied upon particular evangelical theological conclusions. For example, in his answer regarding hell, the entire answer was placed in a framework shaped by penal substitutionary atonement. Similarly, all of his arguments about hell presumed eternal conscious torment. I find this approach to apologetics unpersuasive not only within the larger Christian community, but also toward our "outside" neighbors, many of whom are deeply suspicious of and confused by Christian teachings.
I would like to see a "seasoned" academic--someone like Professor Groothius--in conversation with someone like me: a milennial Christian who has wrestled with these issues and found the standard, tidy answers unsatisfactory.
Even in the penal substitutionary atonement framework, the discussion on hell made no sense. He even admitted as much when he basically said "Jesus said it's true, so we have to deal with it." This one point--trying to make sense out of a God who thinks eternal conscious torment is OK--is where I expect Christian apologists to lose basically anyone who is thinking clearly.
I would like to see such a discussion as well. Honestly I feel like I could “win” an honest debate with someone like this just because I’ve wrestled with this doctrine of hell for so long and I’m not afraid to call bs on his answers.
I do hope that the tide is turning and this doctrine is on the way out. It’s grotesque and makes a mockery of a loving God.
@@jp-gy3vh I haven't ever seen a proponent of eternal conscious torment really grapple with historical reality--the apostolic fathers believed in conditional immortality, and the greatest of the reformers/Bible translators did too (Martin Luther, William Tyndale, John Wycliffe, etc.). I also haven't seen them really deal with the exegesis of the many dozens of biblical verses and passages that strongly support conditional immortality, and how exegesis of the texts they use to support eternal conscious torment actually shows that the texts are easily harmonized with conditional immortality. And I find it absolutely baffling that more Christians aren't questioning what is clearly the worst possible thing anyone could believe--that a being exists who is powerful enough and evil enough to keep other beings alive literally forever and torture them the whole time.
Thanks for a helpful interview. ❤😊
19:11 I love this explination.. So helpful to keep this in mind.
Glad you liked it!
Great conversation. Thanks for all these.
Thanks for listening
1) How can a loving God allow so much evil.... original sin, man chose to follow Satan
2) How can a loving God send someone to hell... original sin, all men are born spiritually dead in Satan's Kingdom
3) Why is God hidden.... He is not hidden to His saints
4) What about those who never heard of God... they are the same as #2
5) Why so much abuse in churches... unsaved "tares", sown by Satan infiltrate the church
6) Is the cross child abuse... what a retarded question. The Cross was Atonement for His sheep
7) Is Christianity racist... No, God saves Jews and Gentiles
8) Is Christianity homophobic... No, the wages of sin is death
9) Is Christianity at war with science... no, science wars against the Truth
10) Is Christianity sexist... no, man is the head of woman as Christ is the head of man
@@SeanMcDowell
1) How can a loving God allow so much evil.... original sin, man chose to follow Satan
2) How can a loving God send someone to hell... original sin, all men are born spiritually dead in Satan's Kingdom
3) Why is God hidden.... He is not hidden to His saints
4) What about those who never heard of God... they are the same as #2
5) Why so much abuse in churches... unsaved "tares", sown by Satan infiltrate the church
6) Is the cross child abuse... what a retarded question. The Cross was Atonement for His sheep
7) Is Christianity racist... No, God saves Jews and Gentiles
8) Is Christianity homophobic... No, the wages of sin is death
9) Is Christianity at war with science... no, science wars against the Truth
10) Is Christianity sexist... no, man is the head of woman as Christ is the head of man
I love Doug Grouthuis books..literally one of my fave authors
It's so good!
Same. Really helpful to read the New Age ones coming from that background.
This was incredible❤❤ thank you
three things about the infinite punishment response.
1. The examples of puppies and people are different because of the harm they cause. You can't harm god.
2. The fact that god is infinite doesn't change the fact the the sin is still finite
3. Even if we take into account the value of the different beings, the punishment would still vary despite the beings. Even though I would assume you think that all people are equally valuable, killing someone and stealing from someone are different things that are punished differently despite the crime being against an equally valuable person.
IF your at work, and your boss says "because i said so"... why do humans suffer with the idea... if God says so... Its unfair... its wrong... I have heard the argument used to say, parents do this all the time... "punish our kids.. so they learn grow, protect them, etc... If a perfect person says... if you fall off a building gravity will bring you to the ground... do we blame God? No... because Gravity is a law he put into place... why would you think the other things he put into place should be up to interpretation?
@@Jasminestealth1 we struggle with the because I said so argument because it's a bad argument
You can't just say because they are an authority they are right by definition, you have to provide evidence for the claim.
The gravity analogy is not comparable because we can test that it's there without somebody just saying its there.
@@thecommentors9973 I would say it is you (mankind) who is trying to give authority to God, and therefore that statement doesn't work... the problem is God is the authority, and your putting your mortal finite mind, to the infinite authority... which is understandable... but not right
@@Jasminestealth1 that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
@@thecommentors9973 your freedom to choose :)
Love the Biblical wisdom and insights from both of you scholars and gentlemen. Thank you
Our pleasure!
Sean I always love when a new interview comes out, it especially helps prepare myself for those conversations with extended family during Christmas and New years 😂
Awesome, I hope you enjoy this one!
@@SeanMcDowell so the more suffering i cause the greater the good? cos you'll be compensated in heaven and all things will be put right? i'm off to cause as much suffering as possible then cos apparently it's good.
Just a tip: the answers in this video will not work well on non-Christians. Only Christians with the same interpretations as the guest.
Feel free to ask me if you want feedback on what you want to say to non-Christians.
@@Iverath you got my attention. Curious...What would you say differently?
@@HarryNicNicholas Read Romans 6 and Hebrews 10:26-31. If you live with this mentality, you haven't truly repented, so you won't be in heaven.
I really enjoyed this interview. Point #5 was really helpful for me as I’ve been witnessing to a relative whose hang up has been past abuses done in the name of Christianity. What Dr. Groothius said about satan twisting scripture made a lot of sense to me as well as the Bible verse where Jesus tells those types of people ‘depart from me, for I never knew you’.
Awesome conversation men
Thank you for tackling these questions! One of the best general answers to the problem of evil I've heard is the world builder/soul builder theodicy. Crudely put, it states that to truly have a perfect world while free will exists (divine determinists obviously would have a different answer), the beings in that world would first need to understand and experience the consequences of evil and suffering. The history of humanity (and Genesis) shows simply warning folks often isn't enough. There's so much language in the Bible of redemption and refining -- and the end goal is the new heaven and new Earth. Another dimension of it is we want God to stop allowing evil, except for when it's evil we happen to like. True justice would demand an answer to both, so God's distance is often 1. Our actions separating us from God, but also 2. Mercy to give us time to repent...not punishment.
Word salad.
@channelfit2406 "Word salad" to those who are unregenerate. Trying to explain spiritual Truth to someone who is unregenerate is analogous to attempting to explain a symphony orchestra concert to someone who is deaf and blind.
@@justin10292000 he disagrees with you so he's deaf and blind huh. A very christian response :P
That argument has been debunked for years now. The main counter is simply the problem of natural evil, as well as the evil that affects children and especially babies. Why would a volcano, tornado, tsunami, or any other natural disaster be "earned" by humanity - especially when millions of those impacted are going to be children? Your whole argument utterly fails to account for this.
Beyond that you have a number of quite horrific diseases and conditions that affect children. Some twins are of course born with their bodies melded to each other. Others are born without any skin, dying shortly after in horrible agony. Some people are born doomed to acquire "Horton's syndrome", which varies in intensity, but at its worst feels as if a hot poker is being rammed through your eye into your brain. The pain is reportedly so bad, that most people who have it commit suicide before they turn 20. None of them did anything heinous to earn such punishment.
This is just a small fraction of the natural evil that exists in the world. And lastly, your own argument is quite easily debunked by pointing out that God **DESIGNED HUMANS**. That means he **DESIGNED THEM TO SIN**. So he is punishing them, with **ETERNAL TORTURE** for something that **HE DESIGNED**. Just think about that. And not only is he punishing them eternally, but he for no good reason decided to rectify this situation, HIS SON SHOULD BE TORTURED TO DEATH ON A CROSS. That is, that a blood sacrifice was necessary to forgive humanity, rather than simply forgiving them without the blood sacrifice. Oh yeah, and I almost forgot to mention - Jesus came thousands of years too late for millions of humans living in the millenias before christ (BC), meaning they were doomed to sin with no chance of salvation. Christian apologists like William Lane Craig defend this with "well, sure God may have missed a few people. But he got most of them!". That's your "perfect" God for you
This is so horribly irrational, that most people tend to view Christianity as nothing better than a pagan myth. It does come from the bronze ages, after all. If you decide to, I'd welcome you into atheism - and a more enlightened, intelligent understanding of the modern world :). Best wishes
@@justin10292000
It’s word salad to everyone who isn’t a member of your cult who desperately wants to have an explanation for the silly parts of Christian mythology that don’t make any sense.
But I guess that trying to teach logical thinking or how a sound epistemology works to people who desperately want their ridiculous religious beliefs to be true is a waste of time.
I really think you need to go back and listen to that first answer again. See whether or not you would be satisfied with that if you were an atheist. It goes a long ways towards answering it concisely, but it simply misses the mark. I realize that entire volumes have been written on this, so it’s impossible to do it really well in just a couple of minutes. But this answer really needs some work.
Not satisfying at all. I expected more.
Excellent lesson!
Thanks!
1) How can a loving God allow so much evil.... original sin, man chose to follow Satan
2) How can a loving God send someone to hell... original sin, all men are born spiritually dead in Satan's Kingdom
3) Why is God hidden.... He is not hidden to His saints
4) What about those who never heard of God... they are the same as #2
5) Why so much abuse in churches... unsaved "tares", sown by Satan infiltrate the church
6) Is the cross child abuse... what a retarded question. The Cross was Atonement for His sheep
7) Is Christianity racist... No, God saves Jews and Gentiles
8) Is Christianity homophobic... No, the wages of sin is death
9) Is Christianity at war with science... no, science wars against the Truth
10) Is Christianity sexist... no, man is the head of woman as Christ is the head of man
I enjoy the serious study & tone taken to defend & try to make sense of the Abrahamic mythology. Thank you for the entertainment.
Always good to listen to the voices who answer on the other side of this interview: David Bentley Hart, Hans Urs Von Balthasar, Gregory of Nyssa, and John Milbank, to name a few.
What position does Hart take?
@@SeanMcDowell Hart is a proponent of universal reconciliation, as well as an atonement theology more aligned with aspects of a Christus Victor theory.
His metaphysics as presented in The Beauty of the Infinite, then further nuanced in You Are Gods, also lands in a different place than this interview presents as it holds forth a place for theosis.
@@kylekloostra5659 Universal reconciliation makes far more sense to me.
I appreciate David Bently Hart a lot--Tsunami and Theodicy is a great treatise on the problem of evil, for example. (I don't see universalism in the Bible though. I think the biblical answer is that the fire consumes the wicked rather than torturing them forever.)
Where in the bible does it say “ thou shall not own other people as property “?
Yahweh appears to be a local tribal deity of a specific ethno- geographic group (the Israelites ) who does battle with the deities of the nations and tribes around them. Jesus was a Jew, who came for the Jews and the Old Testament writers we’re telling the stories of the Jewish people. Somewhere along the way gentiles culturally appropriated Judaism and called it Christianity.
Well done!
Thanks!
Remember Xtians, god loves you so much, he created hell, just in case you don't love him back.
LOL
Hell is not a physical place of torture. Hell is the absence of God.
If you don't genuinely love God, than God won't force you into his kingdom.
As C.S Lewis once said, the gates of hell are locked from the inside.
And unconditionally! On the condition that you worship him without question of course.
@@legodavid9260 Just bald assertions without ANY EVIDENCE.
PS: When the MUSLIM/HINDU GOD sends you to his HELL, you'll be wailing and gnashing and burning forever.
LOL
@@legodavid9260 Revelation state that they will be tormented in the lake of fire in the PRESENCE of the Lamb and the holy angels. That;s the exact opposite of separation by definition.
See, even Christians who have believed in eternal conscious torment their whole lives know it isn't right or fair. Doug admitted as much when he basically said "We just have to deal with it because Jesus said it's true." Here's the thing--it's not true. Conditional immortality is where it's at, both biblically and logically. I've studied the Bible with dozens of people, and those who are new to Christianity are very quick to see the biblical basis for conditional immortality. It seems to me that those who have been Christians a long time have more to lose by being wrong, though, and are very resistant to thoroughly examining the biblical teaching on death and hell. The Bible overwhelmingly refers to death as "sleep," and repeatedly says that hell "consumes/destroys" the wicked.
Everyone I’ve talked to that believes in ECT says they believe it’s fair, even after I press and question their stance. I think that they have too much fear of God’s wrath to say or believe anything else.
@@jp-gy3vh Yeah I can see how it's a catch-22. In Orwell's "1984," Big Brother is Good. He defines goodness. Therefore, anything Big Brother decides to do cannot be questioned. People are using exactly the same thinking to defend eternal conscious torment. The Bible, though, says "Taste and see that the Lord is good." Jesus said "I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends..." It should be obvious that God wants intelligent and willing worship and appreciation.
Groothuis is awesome in these interviews. I love that he refuses the premise that God is hidden.
Great video!
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
In this case "evil" is more like calamity or war which is the opposite of peace.
Soo when it soo clearly states in the bible , then why do we say he didn't. The devil does not get credit for creating anything, the devil did not all the sudden one day create evil and then God was like ohhh look that is smart, let me use that in my arsenal. Although, can you name one instance in the bible where God does something evil for the sake of doing evil and not when he is judging someone.
@@tweezy5804 it's an interesting point.
It doesn't make or break anything for me. God is God.
I wonder though it maybe the act of creating creatures who possess free will and ultimately choose evil is the logic behind God "creating evil".
Or, was the possibility of evil created by God giving free will.
Or did Gid make evil in order that one might have free will and not have to always choose good by default.
God set up the whole system of obedience, sin, punishment, payment, etc… So… If people are in hell…it’s because God WANTS them there.
He could simply forgive..if he wanted to.
No because it goes against his character. God is both loving and just. His righteousness demands that He punish sin, but His love motivated Him to offer a way to forgive sinners.
@@IsntsheRocio that’s what your told…but, it really doesn’t make sense. As the offended party…God could simply forgive…and remain just. Unless there’s a Justice higher than him that dictates the parameters.
How he set things up was this choice…knowing what would happen. So, he chose the path that led to most being in hell.
@@IsntsheRocio It's also in God's character to be omnipotent, yet he designed a world in such a way that essentially ties his hands and forces him to torture his own creations (which he apparently loves) for all eternity. It seems like forgiveness or some sort of penance would make more sense, yet he goes for endless suffering instead because he just can't stand what he has made.
@@jayvansickle7607 And that's even without touching the idea that "punishment" is a righteous thing in the first place, not just trying to make a right out of a second wrong.
@@_volder more so…The idea of eternal punishment…or, even post death punishment is unique to any idea of just punishment w we use. It’s not protecting anyone, or reforming the individual. It’s just sadistic torture.
Amazing book, I have the audio version, really amazing stuff.
This was an excellent video, Sean! Thanks for sharing. When you were covering the first topic of the problem of evil, I would say evil shows how much God values relationship and His desire for us to choose him. He allows evil due to His respect for those to not choose Him. If we are to have relationship, we need to be able to choose. When we don't choose God, we choose the consequences of that. Would be interested in your thoughts on that.
Choose him or burn in hell for eternity? Sounds like a very respectful god to me!
Sean I would love for you to do a video on conditional immortality. I’ve been quite surprised about the amount of biblical data in support of this view as initially I didn’t think there was any. I was also surprised to find that the idea of eternal conscious torment was not universal among early church fathers. Would love your take on it!
1) How can a loving God allow so much evil.... original sin, man chose to follow Satan
2) How can a loving God send someone to hell... original sin, all men are born spiritually dead in Satan's Kingdom
3) Why is God hidden.... He is not hidden to His saints
4) What about those who never heard of God... they are the same as #2
5) Why so much abuse in churches... unsaved "tares", sown by Satan infiltrate the church
6) Is the cross child abuse... what a retarded question. The Cross was Atonement for His sheep
7) Is Christianity racist... No, God saves Jews and Gentiles
8) Is Christianity homophobic... No, the wages of sin is death
9) Is Christianity at war with science... no, science wars against the Truth
10) Is Christianity sexist... no, man is the head of woman as Christ is the head of man
I am fully on track with the conditional immortality. I have a book called "The Fire That Consumes". I know the lady who made a movie about the authors life called "Hell and Mr. Fudge". I have yet to read the book but I understand that it is quite thorough in examining all relevant scripture on the subject of hell. God's word was designed for thorough investigation and when we come to conclusions based on just a few verses, God is not honored in that. The same thing happens with Evolutionists finding supposed evidence for common descent. If they continue to examine the evidence, they will realize that the evidence for evolution falls apart.
Let me also add that God wants us to make a decision for Him, not a decision against hell. In other words, so many people are presented with an eternally burning hell and the thought of that entices people to choose the alternative as a means of escaping eternal torment but how many are really converted? On the flip side of, today how many are rejecting God because the doctrine of eternal torment is so horrendous? They can't bring themselves to worship a God that is satisfied with tormenting people forever for a few decades of wrong doing.
We should also recognize that if we conclude that justice is being served by way of eternal torment, then we will become like the god of our invention. I'll stop there; I don't feel that I'm articulating very well 😬
@@truthbebold4009 The metaphor of evolution and common descent is a good one. Inside the evolutionary model, you don't ask the questions that would free you from the model. But once you allow yourself to ask the right questions, you see how poor the scientific case for common descent really is. Same with eternal conscious torment. The biblical case for it is extremely thin, compared to a powerful case for conditional immortality.
@@truthbebold4009if that is your approach about how a person gets saved (saved from what?)….then May I suggest you to take a very sharp razor blade and remove the word “chosen” or any synonyms from the Bible?. I would not put my faith on what would be left over…
@Sean: While I do like the answers, I am so curious what the answer of non-Christian philosophers/theologians is. Would it be a good suggestion to add someone with an opposite worldview to this interview and ask them to put forward their best arguments regarding these topics? Then we can hear both sides and learn from both of them.
No, because apologetics is about retaining believers, not fully exploring ideas.
@@weirdwilliam8500 Yeah, that’s what I find so strange. What does truth have to fear from other interpretations?
@@weirdwilliam8500 There are actually a lot of other channels that do precisely this.
@@cpjds1 I’ve watched them. They don’t. They give superficial answers or ad hoc speculation that seems designed to cut doubts short before they can be fully considered. That’s apologetics.
I think that is a different kind of discussion. That is more of a debate, and that is a good thing to do, but this is an apologetic discussion. There is a place for both kinds of discussions!
Great video
Sean, you are honest and brave to deal on UA-cam such troubling questions.
You asked (42:46) if there was other big questions left to be asked.
...I have - one
My question:
Why is the church - after two millennia of church history, Bible scholars, preachers and teachers - not able, even to this day, to answer your first five questions?
▪︎1. Why a loving and good God allows so much evil in the world?
▪︎2. How can a loving God send someone to hell?
▪︎3. Why is God so hidden?
▪︎4. What about those who haven't heard about God?
▪︎5. Why so much abuse and damage done through the church?
Dr Groothuis and you have tried answering these five questions, albeit not as convincingly as one had hoped for.
So with such lack of clarity, I add one more question - one I myself will answer, hopefully to bring the key to open the way to understanding all questions.
▪︎6. Is God willing that His people remain so ignorant about Him, His ways and salvation plan?
My answer: No, absolutely not! But why?
¤ 1. Surely God would not condone His people of such lack of understanding, for ...
▪︎God did say: "My people are being destroyed because they don’t know me". Ho 4:6
▪︎Jesus had said to his Father: “I have revealed you to the ones you gave me from this world." Jn 17:6
▪︎ he also said to his Father "for I have passed on to them the message you gave me." Jn 17:8
▪︎ ignorant believers would only diminish the glory of God, which would not serve His purpose of making everything new! Rev 21:5
So, God wants and has provided the means to His people to know Him. But no, after 2,000 years, the church has no understanding!
¤ 2. Perhaps we do not know because we are not allowed to know, or not ready, to know. How so? Because we...
▪︎have not followed Jesus, as his disciples, and loved him enough to obey him as our Lord. Mt 16:24; Jn 14:21
▪︎the Holy Spirit has not come to us, who will lead us into all truths (Jn 14:17), and will reveal the secrets of the Kingdom of God. Mt 13:11-12
▪︎follow Jesus - the one true Teacher and Lord, but also take other teachers (e.g. Paul, pastors). Jn 13:13 Mt 23:8
▪︎have ignored Jesus’s way to God - "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except by me". Jn 14:6
Sean, what I have said (above) is hurting, and will make me sound arrogant, even appearing self-righteous to the hilt!
But what I have said is true: no one can prosper having to obey two masters or learn from two teachers of truth.
Two choices: either ...
▪︎ follow Jesus Christ as your ONLY Lord, Master, Teacher and Saviour, and you have everything, even God the Father!
▪︎ follow Jesus and others (Paul, pastors, etc), and you will have nothing, not even eternal life!
In regards to point 1…I disagree with the idea that God doesn’t create evil he allows it.
What do you think about Isaiah 45:7. Depending on the translation it says:
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
Isaiah 45:7 KJV
“I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.”
Isaiah 45:7 ASV
“I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.”
Isaiah 45:7 ESV
“I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.”
Isaiah 45:7 NLT
“I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.”
Isaiah 45:7 NIV
I feel a lot of the times Christians including myself would say that evil and suffering are due to the absence of God and caused by the free will of man. But I feel this verse directly says God creates evil and brings it upon people.
Maybe that's just the reality because later it talks about how the pot doesn't/shouldn't question the pot maker about how it's made. So maybe we shouldn't question God about how he's doing things. But I feel this verse would kind of go against the common answer that christians give about suffering and evil.
I mean even if you look at Job it's essentially God making the decision to let you suffer even if it's in his absence. It's still him actively allowing it and putting it upon you regardless of how you are acting because Job was "blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil" (Job 1:1).
In Job you could argue it's for the "greater good" so that Job gets closer to God. But still that doesn't change the fact that God is actively bringing it upon a man who appears to be a good man. So I feel perhaps Christians might have to stop giving the "suffering is the absence of God and a result of our wicked free will" answer. And maybe change it to "God created evil and suffering and actively puts it on people who either deserve it or who he wants to test and make closer to him. And we shouldn't question this just like a pot doesn't question the pot maker". But I feel that’s a very scary way of answering to wrestle with lol.
Good points Yahweh in some phases of Israelite religion is conceived much in the way of Calvin’s god. Yahweh like a character in a novel changes through the story different authors having different conceptions of this character.
My understanding is 'evil' in that context is not moral evil, but natural evil. An earthquake, vs. murder. God allows both, but only the first comes from God.
But I also think of the command in Genesis to subdue the earth. I take it to mean that God intended men to make the whole earth like Eden. So medical practice is one example of fulfilling that command. Also, with sound engineering we can overcome earthquakes. In other words, God intended humans to be his agents to complete creation.
But moral evil works against that. Violence, wars, etc. destroys creation instead of completing it.
As expected, this is all just preaching. Not only are the questions not answered, they are not even stated in the manner posed by atheists e.g If God is perfect, why would he create anything? He couldn’t be lacking anything, and the result was to introduce imperfection. And no, every world view does not require a response to the argument for evil. On naturalism the horrors of life are entirely expected and not at all problematic. As for the Atonement, it is an utterly primitive notion that a good God would find it necessary to punish anyone eternally, let alone that the punishment of the innocent could be a remedy for the sins of the guilty. Thank God there is no reason to believe any of it.
Hiddenness: so apparently God is obvious to everyone. Was he obvious to the hundreds of thousands of children murdered at Auschwitz, who died horrifically while begging for God’s help? This ‘apparent’ God seems a lot like someone who doesn’t exist at all. His ‘answers to prayer’ are indistinguishable from pure chance.
The ‘unreached’ - If God is willing to pardon those who haven’t heard the gospel, aren’t you harming them by giving them the ‘good news’? This is another inconsistency in Christian belief that is simply ignored by saying that ‘God is fair’, when if we believe the Bible that is the last adjective anyone would apply to him.
Penal substitution - by definition an enormous injustice, particularly to those who have been harmed by others. If my child has been killed by some monster, what solace is it to know that the murderer is not punished, but poor old Jesus is?
Slavery - there is explicit acceptance of slavery in the OT. To describe these passages as ‘good’ is obscene. The ideas of human rights etc came from the Enlightenment, and from ancient philosophy. Absolutely biblical slavery was based on race; there were specific protections given to Hebrews that were denied to goyim.
Is Christianity anti-gay? No doubt. One must twist the texts like a pretzel to view them in any other way.
Science - Christianity has since its inception opposed science. It presided over a thousand years of scientific ignorance in the West. The interviewee goes on to prove himself wrong by rejecting evolution, and indicating that he buys in to anti-science ID. Then McDowell joins in by quoting Plantinga, an anti-science philosopher, as though this had any more relevance than a 6 year old’s opinion on astrophysics.
Women and Christianity - 2000 years of oppression speaks for itself, one would have thought.
In sum, just the same old refried beans tarted up as fine dining.
To God be the glory.
How about john owens book, The death of death and the death of Christ. Good stuff!!! Deep exploration of the atonement
So Doug says that God didn’t create evil...why does the Bible say that in the the KJV version of Isaiah 45:7? “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
Isaiah 45:7 KJV pretty clear language, not at all metaphor...
Hello there!
The word translated evil in this passage can be used of evil but also of calamity or punishment. The context suggest this is what the text means; God can bring good times and He can bring punishment and hard times.
That´s why most translations do not translate it as evil, not because it´s not a possible translations for the word, but that it doesn´t fit the context.
@@thomasfryxelius5526 Hmmm if you are willing to do this with this verse where the language is so very clear, how can anybody trust what any other verse means, like the one that says “all” have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. can we trust “all” is that the right word? What about “in the beginning God “created” the heavens and the earth”? Does created actually mean created? What about in Romans when God says he is in charge of “all”the Government’s? Does that not mean “all” either? What other words don’t mean what they say in the Bible please point them out.
@@thomasfryxelius5526 and where are the sermons that say the KJV is wrong about this verse or what the right translation of the Bible is
@@CalvinR90
What the Bible says is determined by what is said in the original texts. In this case hebrew.
So if you look at different translations and they translate differently, you know there are some legitimate options there, and you can usually determine who is correct by looking at the context of the passage. But another important rule is to not determine important doctrines or beliefs on only one text, especially not if it is disputed how it´s supposed to be translated.
@@CalvinR90 If you look up the passage in an interlinear Bible online, you can search this term and find the different possible ways it can be translated, and then you look at the whole passage and figure out which one fits the context; is God talking about creating moral evil or is He talking about bringing calamity (bad times) on people that sin as punishment. Since calamity is what is in view we can determine that the KJV probably made a mistake.
I still have a problem with everlasting punishment. Eternal- as in full and complete punishment, dependent on the sin, seems fair and necessary for justice. Is it possible that Jesus suffered the “everlasting”punishment for all people, but for those who don’t believe, follow or know him, they must face judgement based on the severity of their sin, with restoration the goal. I’m not saying that everyone will be saved. I’m thinking of those who were hurt by the church and their hearts were hardened and couldn’t hear the true gospel. Others, perhaps were just confused by all the rhetoric, and didn’t have the intellect to decider truth. Others were born or acquired mental illness that prevented them from knowing God. I have to trust in a loving God that will be completely just and will make all things right in the end.
I believe the Bible teaches us that people are judged on an individual basis (what they were exposed to, what they lived through, what they knew about God and Jesus, etc). But he will also know the difference between us having real barriers versus using things that look like barriers outside our control but are really us choosing to ignore or reject the gospel, God, or Jesus. As someone who experienced severe spiritual abuse, there was time in my life where that was an absolute barrier to my belief, and an even longer period of time that it was a convenient excuse to keep him out of my life and not face my trauma, and eventually I realized it was my own choice… that I knew I had been exposed to severe trauma and lies about God and Christianity and that I really should try to learn it anew as an adult with free will instead of continuing to live like a confused hurt child. After that point it would have been my own sin to refuse to find out what was true versus what had been twisted and tainted by people I could now properly see were abusers and liars and evil.
Same. I understand Romans 1:20 is truth but I can't help but think that God gives people ample measures of grace to see His goodness over the span of their life.
@@selahr. My sons were born with schizophrenia. It is genetic. One has extreme fear of hell ever since a teacher told him if he didn’t believe he was going there. The only way he can cope is to be atheist. He did ask for healing when he was little. My other son sees and consults spirits and is agnostic. I’ve been praying for them for 30 years! It’s a long story but -My mom had this disease and she murdered one of my baby brothers. She took her meds and loved the Lord, but kept this secret from me her whole life. I found out after she died. Had I knew, I would not have had children. Now Im working on forgiving her and my dad and God for not warning me and preventing this travesty. There has to be more to judgement than “you’re in and you’re out” because you had the privilege to recognize the truth. I pray that there is mercy and healing after death.
it's okay, it's all fantasy
@@bran7134 and yet it's still a failure of your God mythology to suggest that eternal punishment awaits for culturally defined "sin". Before you give me the "what is right then is right now" argument, realize that slavery and things like "sell your daughter to her rapist" were cultural mores imposed by a religious system of the day. You can't have it both ways. So if the idea is that the God myth of your life BECAUSE of the Bible (you say) wants rapists to own their victims, I say that's a God that is evil, barbaric and a complete creation of the cultural mores of the day. THAT kind of "God" deserves hellfire and damnation.
@Jamescoolkid I hope you waited til the end of the vid to make a decision about it’s validity…bless you brother Jim😊
I would argue against the given answer on question #2. I believe that answer to be extracted from a largely pagan tradition rather than from biblical exegesis.
10 Challenges to Faith?
There is only one main challenge. That is its bizarre claims without evidence
If I may ask, how much evidence would be necessary for you if you were to accept Christianity?
@@legodavid9260 Lay out your best evidence, and we'll start from that.
@@legodavid9260 Thanks for asking.
The concept and execution of Christianity is nonsensical. I won't follow something that is nonsense, and neither should you.
I'm interested in people who claim bible Jesus existed for as yet no one in 2000 years has ever provided any evidence
@@legodavid9260 1 Kings 18 would be a good start! 😮
@@legodavid9260
I can tell you what kind of evidence isn’t enough… unverifiable anecdotes and anonymous hearsay in an ancient book that contradicts scientific facts.
But how much evidence would be necessary for you to accept that the global flood of Noah didn’t happen or that Evolution is true?
The evidence is good enough to convince pretty much all scientists on the planet, so why isn’t it good enough to convince you?
Why would a Good God allow evil and suffering? Ultimately He doesn’t. He is Merciful and Patient, not wishing any to parish but that all shall repent and be saved. In other words, he doesn’t pull the trigger on Judgement immediately. He is giving us all time to see our sin and turn to him for Salvation.
During this period of Grace we are hurting others and him by our sin. We all deserve judgment, death and hell and will ultimately get it if we refuse His GOODNESS IN CHRIST.
Read Job. God allowed Satan to test Job.
@@joannadavignon1608 Yes and the Spirit of God Lead Jesus into the Wilderness to be Tempted. Temptation is not a sin.
Tell that to the women and children of Sodom. Even Abraham tried to dissuade God from killing all those babies. According the the text God lies to Abraham about what they intend to do. And the 3 saved include one who wants to sacrifice children and two rapist. God has a strange sense of humour
Great video! I’d love more of you two further discussing substitutionary atonement and eternal punishment.
Great ideas, thanks!
Eternal punishment makes sense if the punishment is permanent e.g. eternal death. Eternal punishment is not just, however, if the sinner is permitted to exist for eternity, because by default sin would continue for eternity. A just God may delay or defer punishment, but a just God cannot allow sin to exist forever especially if this deity is effectively perpetuating sin due to the punishment. Modern jails are hotbeds of violence and iniquity because of our imperfect system of justice. If God cannot END sin, then despite whatever punishment he imposes, he's powerless or not perfectly just. The only way to end sin is by transforming sinners or, if they cling to their sin, the permanent annihilation of the sinner.
An amazing insight on an even more intricate issue... Thank you!
Much of the secular world have no to little appreciation for the concept of a ''sin nature'' Mankind's ''sin nature'' is at the center and focal point of mankind's identity 2nd only one could argue
to a person sex at birth, but without fully appreciating the concept and ramifcation's of what it means to be given a ''sin nature'' at birth. Whenever I hear about people who were former christians
I can't help but wonder if these people really grasped and learned what having a ''sin nature'' really means in the first place, like or not our sin nature is our ''cornerstone at birth'' it is sadly our deepest reality, or certainly one of them and something you have to strive to overcome, but it's such a sensetive topic requring really good emotional and intelligent maturity, it's never talked about enough
37:18 when you presuppose inerrancy.
I will say these were actually 10 good objections although, as usual, not presented in nearly their strongest form.
Well please come on UA-cam and do a better job explaining please. I would love to listen
@@psynurse how about you read a book or the better critiques? always find the snark relatively useless. You COULD have asked "what would be a better form", but your lack of moral or social adulthood makes you look like a bitter and despairing person - is that the context you'd want your cult to be known for?
I mean, Sean himself makes this goddamn point a lot, apparently to deaf ears.
Jesus pointed out we should worry about the log in our own eye. When you treat critique like an asshole, we see where that log is lodged.
Particularly in the west we could alíviate so much suffering by giving from our excess. How would we answer if God asked us why we allow suffering? We can only do good and reduce suffering if there is suffering. A world without any suffering is bland and unchangeable, we can do neither good or bad, we cannot show love or help anyone. If a painting is all white, there is no image. A gift only has value if it cost us time or effort, we can only show love by taking on a bit of suffering.
@sean I just finished listening to the Bible Project series on the “Wrath of God” they have a very different approach than what you both discussed here. Would love to hear on a different take on what is the Wrath of God.
Thanks. I haven’t seen that but appreciate the heads up.
Every once in a while, I come back to listen to this stuff only to breathe a sigh of relief that I no longer fall for this garbage. I'm ashamed I ever did🙄
Don’t be ashamed, everyone has their own path
@Clarity Ministry Hi, I wouldn't say I have a new world view. I'm still the same person and move through life as I did as a Christian. I've always had very deep, difficult questions and was always very uncomfortable under the Christian frame work/story line.
I have a tremendous amount of problems with the "way" I should believe. I always thought maybe there is just something wrong with me cause everyone else seems to be ok with it all......but now I've accepted the fact that it will always be the case for me, so I had to check-out of Christianity, and I'm sure God understands, but maybe he doesn't.
And I accept that too.....
@Clarity Ministry How about you? I'm assuming you have no problems with Christianity. Do you feel it's completely logical and consistent?
I'm at a loss for words... It's hard for me to grasp mentally, what you could be struggling with...!
But there's something attractive about your candour... [minus trong language]
I really feel saddened somewhat.
@Mike Kulati I'm sorry you feel sad and don't understand, but its ok. You don't need to.
Why does God choose to allow evil? He doesn't know but he's sure there's a good reason. Well, that really shed a lot of light on the problem. Thanks bud.
This was the question I wish would’ve been addressed better. There are five reasons or so
1. Genesis 3 and the curse when sin entered the world, so did death, destruction, sickness, natural disasters, pain of childbirth, weeds, carnivores animals ect… God’s perfect creation was marred by sin chosen by Adam and Eve and the curse is generationally passed down and the earth is unbalanced. God immediately setup a sacrificial system of redemption to restore His relationship with His creation which is why Adam and Eve are in Heaven today.
2. We have an enemy 1 Peter 5:8 the devil walks around like a roaring Lion seeking whom he may devour. We see in Luke 13 Jesus is on a boat and rebukes (the word rebuke is only used for demonic activity) a storm. Evil spirits are capable (but limited) in causing storms and death (they were attempting to kill Jesus and His followers on the boat. If they were unable to cause death, they wouldn’t have bothered to try). There is a boy who has seizures and is demon possessed and Jesus casts the demons out healing him. Demons to an unknown degree can cause health or mental issues. Don’t hear what I’m not saying. I am not saying that all sickness or mental illness is demonic, but some of it can be, or maybe even exacerbated by the demonic. Satan repeatedly causes decision, hate, encourages people to sin, murder, lie, steal, destroy. Why doesn’t God stop him right NOW? Tough question. He will, but throughout the Bible we see God making comments like “their sin is not yet complete” one example found in Genesis 15:16. I’ll sum this up as briefly as I can. God gives as many chances and opportunities for repentance as possible. Only He knows when there is no more hope and He comes in full of wrath. He even leaves His people the Israelites suffering in slavery for 430 years while He waited for as many Egyptians to turn their hearts as possible. God even sends plagues that essentially “defeat” all the main gods of Israel to prove Himself over their false gods. He even hardens the heart of the pharaoh and allows a death angel to destroy the firstborn sons (those under the age of accountability would go to paradise and those who were evil went to Hell. This seems cruel, but since their sin was at this point complete, if He let them go on, every single one of them would grow up to live a Godless life and go to Hell in the end because of it. If you could interview these dead children, they would likely point to God’s love in taking their earthly lives because of the everlasting life they would have otherwise not known. This argument is designed for this context and is not to be used for children dying today or even in the very next chapter). Matthew 6:24 shows that you either serve God, or the alternative is you choose Satan. Satan’s sun is not complete yet because we have the option of serving him and asserting ourselves and our desires upon God’s throne, or having God as our Lord. God promises to punish Satan and his evil spirits.
3. God disinherited mankind at the Tower of Babel Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Deuteronomy 4:19-20 because of the evil in the Garden of Eden, then the time of Noah, and now this, God removed humanity’s inheritance and gave people over to their own desires. Still, in His love He selected a Godly line Genesis 12:1-3 to be His witnesses to the world (they failed miserably) and ultimately to be the line in which Jesus who would ultimately restore would come through. The master of the people God disinherited became Satan and his principalities. While this was destroyed and everyone has been purchased, inherited, bought back, redeemed, ect…through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, Satan and the principalities have not let go or forgotten when people worshipped them as gods and still plague the areas fighting for a return of the old idolatry, human sacrifice, and mass possession. They constantly create new tactics that work with the times, but the shadow of times past is a dead horse they continuously try to resurrect.
4. Free will love is not love if it is not chosen. 1 Corinthians 10:23 We obey God out of love, and as we’ve seen above, sin has deadly consequences even when we in our feebleness attempt to call it “small”. The more obvious would be how sun has very real consequences like people dumping chemicals into water sources making a group of people sick, someone stealing everything someone owns, a person getting liver failure from drinking, wars, murder, government control ect…are consequences of free will and that free will can hurt many others not just the immediate sinner. Sun is chaotic and messy and destructive.
5. God can use it. This is not really a reason for why bad things happen, but one for why God may allow a particular tragedy rather than stepping in when He in His sovereignty sometimes does. For instance, my dad’s first wife died of cancer and they prayed for her healing but it did not come. My father and his first wife had prayed for others in the past and because they asked and God in His sovereignty (I repeat) chose to heal them, they recovered. In this instance, my dad’s first wife suffered and went home to be with the Lord. God used this tragedy (not that He struck her to die for a greater purpose, but out of the yuck of this world, He can turn things around for the better of the Kingdom, and sometimes in this life for our blessing. This doesn’t mean that a person will find meaning in every tragedy, but we can praise the Lord for instances that He uses for His glory in this life. God’s perspective is that this world is “but a vapor. Here one moment and gone the next” so He is extremely eternity minded and places that above the comfort and material happiness in this life (James 4:14 Psalm 144:4)
A real treat wiith no yelling.
We have no excuse.
On the 6 question, dr Doug answer “this was not a reluctant or resistant savior doing what he didn’t want to do” this shows he didn’t fully read the Bible. In Matthew 26:39 Jesus said in his prayer “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will [not what I desire], but as You will and desire”
There is scientific proof of God?
nope, still all stories.
no
Not really, though apologists love to vaguely say that he is "self-evident" so I guess they don't need proof
So I’m three minutes in, and this man has to be one of the most skilled interlocutors at not answering a question.
Go 5 minutes in. Not all questions are approached with a fast food response. Hope you find the answers you are looking for. Blessings and happy new year!
only if you think there is a god and that god is an idiot.
Amen. I made the same point. Further, his circular answers are fundamentally flawed. As a PhD in philosophy, he MUST understand that he's going to be discredited for these somewhat lazy? answers. Perhaps he doesn't take the forum seriously. Maybe he's on a book tour and just had a bad day. Dunno. I think Sean is trying to find good apologetics, but if he really wants the apologetics to work for folks who don't already have a predisposition to confirmation bias, he has to do better.
@@bran7134 5, 10, 46:59. James is right. Hope you find the answers you need to help you think for yourself. All/any good "god" myth would want for you! Not for nothing, wishing happiness isn't really Christ's MO. So while people appreciate the platitudes, what would make it truly happy is for you to introspect. Can I get an amen?
@@desnock he's deffo on a book tour, check out the website, page one - no mention of jesus all about books and where to buy them. i love xians.
When Sean asks, "How could a loving and good God allow so much evil in the world?" And Doug replies that we need to step back and first look for positive evidence for an all powerful and all good God, I agree.
I haven't read his book yet, so I don't know what kind of evidence he gives, but I do want to be careful because a lot of people seem to confuse evidence for an intelligent creator with evidence for an all-loving God. The Kalam Cosmological argument, for example is an argument for an external cause, but that in no way says whether that cause is good. Similarly for intelligent design arguments.
We also have some evidence that Jesus came and dwelt among us to show us love by dying on the cross, however Jesus also could have demonstrated a very great love if He had healed everyone. Jesus healed some people, showing that He is somewhat loving. But He didn't heal everyone, suggesting that He is loving but not all-loving (unless we say that he was not powerful enough to heal everyone).
So in other words, I have not yet heard a convincing argument that there is an all-loving God.
"If we can trust the God the Bible, then He knows the reason..." Yes -- that's a big "if"
As far as a free will defense goes -- that God didn't cause evil, but others caused it and He allowed it -- I would say that free will is a good thing, but it should be limited. Oppressors should not have the free will to take free will away from others.
I would drop the word "evil" from the problem and focus more on "victim suffering"
How can a good God allow victim suffering?
Good God talk
Very helpful conversation, Sean. I’d like to point out though that I don’t agree with the ontological status principle you seem to invoke to support an infinite guilt sin thesis. You say it’s worst to kill a human than a puppy, but not all crimes against humans are worst than crimes committed against puppies. Saying a bad word against one’s referee versus physically beating a dog are not on the same plethora. Moreover, one cannot commit deicide depending on certain definitions of “death.” A classical theist who holds to impassability will confess that a human cannot harm God. Moreover, while it’s common to invoke the status of the victim in these conversations, it is just as pertinent to invoke the status of the offender to determine guilt and punishment. If I were to assault the President of the United States, would I possess the same measure of guilt and thereby demerit the same punishment as if my three year old son were to offend the president’s honor? I doubt it. More could be said, but I’ll leave it at that.
Listeners r welcome to check out my book with Wipf and Stock “Once Loved Always Loved” that addresses this issue and many others pertaining to hell when it releases later next month.
'God uses evil' O.K. I will just pop over to the the local children's cancer ward and tell them. Its sure to cheer them up. [facepalm]
This answer was like 1/5 answered. Yes, God can use evil, but He doesn’t allow evil so that He can use it. If you’re still interested in a more complete answer, I’m willing to give one as I grappled with this for a long time.
@@chaynaemslie3957
We are told by Christians that God is all loving and at the same time all powerful. This is a huge oxymoron if the Christian God really exists given that there is immense suffering in the world.
_'If you’re still interested in a more complete answer, I’m willing to give one'_
Yes, I am interested. I look forward to your reply my friend.
@johnhammond6423 I see five reasons
1. Genesis 3 and the curse when sin entered the world, so did death, destruction, sickness, natural disasters, pain of childbirth, weeds, carnivores animals ect… God’s perfect creation was marred by sin chosen by Adam and Eve and the curse is generationally passed down and the earth is unbalanced. God immediately setup a sacrificial system of redemption to restore His relationship with His creation which is why Adam and Eve are in Heaven today.
2. We have an enemy 1 Peter 5:8 the devil walks around like a roaring Lion seeking whom he may devour. We see in Luke 13 Jesus is on a boat and rebukes (the word rebuke is only used for demonic activity) a storm. Evil spirits are capable (but limited) in causing storms and death (they were attempting to kill Jesus and His followers on the boat. If they were unable to cause death, they wouldn’t have bothered to try). There is a boy who has seizures and is demon possessed and Jesus casts the demons out healing him. Demons to an unknown degree can cause health or mental issues. Don’t hear what I’m not saying. I am not saying that all sickness or mental illness is demonic, but some of it can be, or maybe even exacerbated by the demonic. Satan repeatedly causes decision, hate, encourages people to sin, murder, lie, steal, destroy. Why doesn’t God stop him right NOW? Tough question. He will, but throughout the Bible we see God making comments like “their sin is not yet complete” one example found in Genesis 15:16. I’ll sum this up as briefly as I can. God gives as many chances and opportunities for repentance as possible. Only He knows when there is no more hope and He comes in full of wrath. He even leaves His people the Israelites suffering in slavery for 430 years while He waited for as many Egyptians to turn their hearts as possible. God even sends plagues that essentially “defeat” all the main gods of Israel to prove Himself over their false gods. He even hardens the heart of the pharaoh and allows a death angel to destroy the firstborn sons (those under the age of accountability would go to paradise and those who were evil went to Hell. This seems cruel, but since their sin was at this point complete, if He let them go on, every single one of them would grow up to live a Godless life and go to Hell in the end because of it. If you could interview these dead children, they would likely point to God’s love in taking their earthly lives because of the everlasting life they would have otherwise not known. This argument is designed for this context and is not to be used for children dying today or even in the very next chapter). Matthew 6:24 shows that you either serve God, or the alternative is you choose Satan. Satan’s sun is not complete yet because we have the option of serving him and asserting ourselves and our desires upon God’s throne, or having God as our Lord. God promises to punish Satan and his evil spirits.
3. God disinherited mankind at the Tower of Babel Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Deuteronomy 4:19-20 because of the evil in the Garden of Eden, then the time of Noah, and now this, God removed humanity’s inheritance and gave people over to their own desires. Still, in His love He selected a Godly line Genesis 12:1-3 to be His witnesses to the world (they failed miserably) and ultimately to be the line in which Jesus who would ultimately restore would come through. The master of the people God disinherited became Satan and his principalities. While this was destroyed and everyone has been purchased, inherited, bought back, redeemed, ect…through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, Satan and the principalities have not let go or forgotten when people worshipped them as gods and still plague the areas fighting for a return of the old idolatry, human sacrifice, and mass possession. They constantly create new tactics that work with the times, but the shadow of times past is a dead horse they continuously try to resurrect.
4. Free will love is not love if it is not chosen. 1 Corinthians 10:23 We obey God out of love, and as we’ve seen above, sin has deadly consequences even when we in our feebleness attempt to call it “small”. The more obvious would be how sun has very real consequences like people dumping chemicals into water sources making a group of people sick, someone stealing everything someone owns, a person getting liver failure from drinking, wars, murder, government control ect…are consequences of free will and that free will can hurt many others not just the immediate sinner. Sun is chaotic and messy and destructive.
5. God can use it. This is not really a reason for why bad things happen, but one for why God may allow a particular tragedy rather than stepping in when He in His sovereignty sometimes does. For instance, my dad’s first wife died of cancer and they prayed for her healing but it did not come. My father and his first wife had prayed for others in the past and because they asked and God in His sovereignty (I repeat) chose to heal them, they recovered. In this instance, my dad’s first wife suffered and went home to be with the Lord. God used this tragedy (not that He struck her to die for a greater purpose, but out of the yuck of this world, He can turn things around for the better of the Kingdom, and sometimes in this life for our blessing. This doesn’t mean that a person will find meaning in every tragedy, but we can praise the Lord for instances that He uses for His glory in this life. God’s perspective is that this world is “but a vapor. Here one moment and gone the next” so He is extremely eternity minded and places that above the comfort and material happiness in this life (James 4:14 Psalm 144:4)
But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
- Luke 16:31
Something repeated by every other cult that Christianity appropriated resurrection myth from. If you rely on magical thinking for your moral perspective, you've lost the value (or the salt, if you will) of the value of the myth.
there are simply things on this side of eternity we will never understand in full thats proves we are created and mortal and he is eternal and all powerful and knowing, the bible says now we see but a poor reflection and his paths are beyond tracing out but we understand enough to be saved and know him God bless
hambam etc: "... things ... we will never understand fully ..." - This is called an argument from personal incredulity. Just because you do not understand something does not mean you are entitled to invent an answer that appeals to you.
Doug fails out of the gate by making faith assertions that underlie his points, which are false if his premises are false. Before people complain about logic, Doug himself must realize this if he studies philosophy and is making his arguments based on his expertise vs his beliefs.
I'm happy to, with this in mind, go over how each of his responses is undermined irrationally by these presumptions which are the differences between non-believers and believers. The arguments don't hold up without a belief in the irrational, which may be enough for some, but then not for others - and there is nothing wrong with those who don't find the belief convincing suggesting the arguments empty if they can't stand on their own.
“Atheism cannot explain evil”. From the moment Doug stated this I knew we were in for 46 minutes of dumb apologetics.
Atheism does not try to explain evil or anything else for that matter. It is the answer to one question. Do you believe God or gods exist. If yes, you are a theist, if no, you are an atheist. Why do apologists find this so difficult to understand? I know, they believe in an imaginary atheist, as they do in their imaginary God.
Double Dumb Apologetics: Atheism can not explain _________. Meanwhile, our explanation is that "god has his reasons that we don't know."
LOL
If Atheism cannot explain evil, and doesn't even attempt to do so, than why should I consider becoming an atheist, if what I am looking for is a deeper meaning in life?
Atheists have done nothing but try to destroy religion for centuries without even considering any possible alternatives to religion for those looking to live better, more meaningful lives.
If Atheism cannot explain evil, and doesn't even attempt to do so, than why should I consider becoming an atheist, if what I am looking for is a deeper meaning in life?
Atheists have done nothing but try to destroy religion for centuries without even considering any possible alternatives to religion for those looking to live better, more meaningful lives.
@@legodavid9260 Nobody is asking you to consider becoming an atheist. Atheism is simply the position that no god claim has met its burden of proof.
If you are looking for “deeper meaning of life”, God did it has no explanatory power. First you are assuming there is a deeper meaning. However, replacing one mystery, what is the meaning, with a bigger mystery, God, makes no sense.
Atheism is not trying to destroy religion. Atheism holds religions feet to flames of critical thinking and find it severely lacking.
My life has hope, meaning and purpose without the need for a religious comfort blanket.
What I find interesting that people who call themselves atheist or so interested in what this channel has to say or obsessed with Christianity. If u are an atheist just go about your day... Or perhaps you do think and worry about being wrong and spending an eternity in hell
I have great respect for Dr Groothuis and Sean but the ultimate question on evil I think is not why did God allow it but why did He ordain it?
Or more specifically, how can a hood God ordain evil?
Why Can't God just forgive us based on repentance like he does in the Jewish faith? Jonathan Edwards was a slave owner.
Despite all the mental gymnastics by Doug, I left christianity in no small part because of the doctrine of hell. This so-called "good news" meant I might be saved, but my atheist brother, my non believing deceased friends, relatives and loved ones will languish for eternity in hell. I could never enjoy a heaven, let alone worship the God who made it happen, without those I love. Evangelicals tell me that "God will wipe my memory of them" when in heaven. That is truly an awful doctrine. I would be so disappointed if I die and God turns out to be like what christians have told me.
I also struggle with Hell as an eternal place. I believe in it in the same way I believe that people who commit crimes deserve prison. I don't have a naive stance on heaven in that it is deserving, and everyone is there. That said, it is the forever and ever that disturbs me. I still am a believer, but I understand what you are talking about. I'm sure there are others who have the same struggles.
Atheists claim not to believe in God, and there are some who would not want God in their lives if you did your best to convince them. A good question to ask: Why would you want God in the afterlife if you don't want God in this present time in the world?
What about those who never had a chance to hear about Jesus? I cannot believe that all those people are eternally damned (not every one of them). It's a tough topic, for sure.
@@deeanderson4164 Bless you Dee. I feel for you. The concept of hell is like a growing cancer that will eat away at your relationship with God. Question everything you've been taught about hell! Research the original Greek words and see them in their historical context. There is a very good biblical case for Universal Reconciliation. That the Father of Love really is as good as Jesus taught.
Nobody goes to hell for being an atheist, or non believer. Contrary to what many so called Christians believe, you will be judged on the good and the bad you have done in your life
@@deeanderson4164
And that's why the idea of hell was created in the image of capital punishment.
@@aussierob7177 Okay, hold on. So an atheist doesn't believe in God. Why would someone who continually denies the wonderful gifts in this world, a world sustainable to our lives, be someone who would be honored to be in God's presence? If someone doesn't want God right now, what do you think heaven is? It is being in the presence of God, with all the full benefits of eternal existence.
Concerning hell, Sean asks, "How can the punishment be infinite and eternal, how is that possibly just?" (8:15).
First, I thank God for Sean's willingness to ask the hard questions!
Having said that, I don't think there is a good answer if people think that what happens in hell is eternal torment. Sean and Doug both rightly point to Jesus as the ultimate authority on this question. But Jesus taught that God will destroy the souls and bodies of people in hell (Matthew 10:28) and that unbelievers will perish (John 3:16). Through His inspired apostles, He taught that the wages of sin is death while only those saved through a relationship with Himself will have eternal life (Romans 6:23). He taught that the ungodly will be turned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6). All of this points to conditional immortality and annihilation, not eternal torment.
It makes sense that people who do not deserve to live forever will not live forever (this applies to all who are outside of God's salvation in Christ which provides both forgiveness and transformation). It would not make sense for God to keep them alive in misery forever.
Spot on 🙌
How come so so many "Believers" get this wrong then? Just bad theology all around I guess.
@@wheat3226So many believers get this wrong because clearly the Holy Spirit is not doing his job.
I totally agree that eternal conscious torment in hell is a doctrine that makes God an absolute monster. But good luck finding a paid minister or teacher who states this obvious conclusion.
@@Egordo-bm6ye , there aren't enough of us, but I am one "paid minister" who teaches the biblical truth of annihilationism. Join me in praying that God will raise up many more!
The "Magic Problem". How did God make the Universe? Specifically, what did he do and how did he do it? When Jesus healed people, how did he do it? Until you can explain how it happened, how can I believe anything you say?
5:28 "in apologetics you don't need to have an airtight answer for everything.." not if you don't expect others to accept your supernatural claims but than again, what is apologetics for? Just the believers?
The problem of evil still hasn't been completely addressed. God has made the ultimate decision of what a sin is and what it isn't so if God has decided what is good and what is evil but has made it possible for evil acts to be committed why even do that and free will is not the answer because he could have made what is good and what is evil differently or made those acts impossible to commit which he didn't.
That, and I never found the idea of a "fallen world" to be a good explanation for evil in nature and the world. Like, sorry, but eating a fruit did not restructure the universe to be evil, that was God's doing. He knew it would happen when he created the fruit and he willed it to happen after it was eaten.
It's just another aspect of the misanthropic nihilistic side of Christianity. It literally blames every single bad thing on what it describes as the disgusting, vile nature of human beings. It teaches us that humans are genuinely incapable of doing good without the grace of God. How valueless it makes humans seem. No wonder it, as a religion, rejoices in death and agony being inflicted on its followers.
Things that are called evil are the things are harmful for the body and the mind
What??
You missunderstand what sin/evil is. Sin is doing anything that is contrary to God. God essentially said I want a creation to choose me because love cannot be forced, and sin is established by necessity that if the only choice is God's desires then we have no choice, and if their is a choice then that choice has to be against God which is sin.
Along with what the last comment shared, your comment shows a misunderstanding of what evil is. It isn’t an arbitrary choice by the Creator. Good is that which is in harmony with God’s nature and character.
As one example, as the Creator of all things and the source of life, human actions that support and encourage life are good because they are in harmony with His character. To the contrary, human actions that support and encourage death are evil.
Why did god hide from all the billions of people before Jesus, and all the people from other cultures, who never heard from Jesus in their whole life?
because he didn't exist before the religion that Jesus was a part of. Nor existed in the areas of the world (ie 99 pct of it) that didn't hear of the itinerant preacher. the reason the West heard about him is Rome.
maybe cos he isn't real. just a thought. odd that religion only appeared about 50,000 years ago, and humans appeared up to 5 million years ago, amazing how we got by with no commandments or no clue about morality eh, almost like we already had these things innately, almost as if it's evolutionary....
All people knew that the Messiah was going to come. Since everyone came from Adam and Eve, the first mention of the Messiah was when they sinned (Genesis 3:15). Every people group and nation had very old stories about the creation of the earth, the fall of man when they sinned, the flood, and the tower of Babel. Even the Native Americans have similar legends. So the way for these people to get salvation, they had to believe that they were sinners and that their hope is for God to send someone (Himself) to take away their sin. "Christianity" or even a better way of saying it, "Christ" didnt start at Jesus, the prophecy for Him to come and die on the cross for all mankind started when man first sinned.
@@soniczoom7946 Well, to be fair, the oral tradition that generated the stories in Genesis that were metaphorical suggested that. Right?
You rightly (as others have exhaustively in history) pointed out the commonality and appropriation of myth on other myths.
Instead of speaking about the myth as if it has coherence like you suggest that represented a chain that had an A vs B, the better way to see it is that most religions have genesis stories, salvation stories and hero stories and end of the world stories. There is no need for the story if there are no stakes.
The story itself shouldn't be conflated on the usage of religion to keep people from incorporating diverse analyses to, in a sense, grow up from the Genesis myth (garden of eden) to more complex, adult conception.
What then is to be derived from myth? What ACTUALLY saves us? Things like the Golden Rule? Perhaps.
@@soniczoom7946 I didn't know it before a priest told me.
How do you know that god is a good god? Is there some kind of standard in the bible that you can use to judge his goodness?
I don’t think that atheism needs to have an “answer” for evil. The problem of evil is ‘why does evil exist given omnipotent and -benevolent deity?’ In atheism, why does “evil” exist? Why not? Creatures have drives, the universe functions. So conflict and plate tectonics exist. As to any *meaning* to it, that’s a problem for theists.
I agree, an atheist does not need to bend over backwards to give an excuse as to why evil is meaningful. An atheist can just say that evil is wrong and choose to fight it.
It is the theist who tries to rationalize evil and say that what we think are evil (abuse, murder, slavery, racism, etc) are actually good things that are part of a bigger plan.
IMHO, You cannot have Freewill (which God gave us so that we may choose to do the right thing), without the possibility of choosing evil. God handles it by the time we get to the next life.
In heaven there is no sin.... so by your statement, do you no longer have free will? Or if you were stripped of all temptation... are you still you?
how can anyone "give you" free will? if it's not yours in the first place it's not free. and how can i have free will when i'm living in gods creation, under gods laws of physics inside a body designed by god, under gods commandments? that's just silly.
Yahweh has not the possibility and capability to choose evil. Therefore Yahweh has no free will. Who designed the will of Yahweh? God and Yahweh are different beings.
@@morlewen7218 the more important question is if god has free will and always does the good, why can't humans? it's a plot hole in the fiction of religion.
@@Jasminestealth1
Why not? We are children of Adam and Eve. They chose to obey the words of the once beautiful serpent. Most people, because of their deceptive and wicked hearts, Jeremiah 17:9, choose the same. They truly despise God and want to throw God off of His glorious throne!
Such hatred should be rewarded? Such pride should be ignored? Jesus paid the price for our sins. He accomished his decease. He shed His sin washing blood to give us His righteousness.
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. "
"But no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident for, The just shall live by faith." Galatians 3:10-11.
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree." Galatians 3:13.
He literally gave His life for us.
We will have sinless redeemed bodies in heaven. Because wecwill not have the struggle with sin, does that mean we do not have free will.
How do you guys actually know that an infinitely perfect God requires infinite punishment for a sin? I don't think you have anyway of knowing this. I can just as easily assert that an infinitely perfect God is quite happy to unconditionally forgive any sin. Or I can just as easily assert that an infinitely perfect God is quite happy to conditionally forgive most sins. I reckon I know my assertions with as much evidence as you guys know your assertions. And I am an atheist.
they just make up stuff that sounds good, this gropius guy has been talking nonsense about science and evolution and even his own religion. no one has ANY idea what god, heaven or even jesus is like.
@@HarryNicNicholas it brought u here. If u are an atheist why are you concerned/interested in watching this channel?
Because the scripture actually says there is a hell where sinners will be for all eternity
@@psynurse
Where does scripture actually say that an infinitely perfect being requires an infinite punishment for sin?
Besides, have you ever thought that scripture might be wrong?
I always wondered why the second son inherited everything. i.e., Adam and Jesus, Isaac and Jacob, etc. This video helped me reach that epiphany. First son, first destination (hell). Second son, second destination (heaven).
Could you please address the scripture of 1 Corinthians 14:34, 1 Timothy2:12 the bible puts women under men all of the time. The Husband is the head, women submit. Divorce if she has been unfaithful. Quite often today these scriptures are attributed to the laws and custom of the day they were written, but there is nothing in the bible to say they no longer apply. Is it ok or not for women to be pastors and teachers for men?
To easy: virgin birth equals purity. Ergo women who have sex are wicked. The whole Adams rib thing is to promote the patriarchal ideas of Christianity.
Most of the guests are expressing nothing but opinions right? Lots of if... thens... or am I missing something?
all of religion is opinion.
@@HarryNicNicholas Isn't it weird that they say things with this confidence?
"Science is not at odds with Christianity."
Later: "Darwinism is a scam!"
I hope a Christian reads this: the answers were only satisfactory for someone that buys into the particular interpretations of Christianity. You have to understand that a youth of today won't be satisfied with *A* reason for why the Christian god is unjust on the gay issue, because they already think it's unjust. They are probably more likely to abandon an, in their eyes, unjust god.
Darwinism itself isn’t science as much as Christianity isn’t. It’s just a theory, not proven.
@@rhyskenshin7325 People still don't understand what "scientific theory" means and how it's not the same as the word "theory" found in a common use dictionary?
I'm sure even Sean would tell you that you should stop using creationist arguments that were outdated 50 years ago.
@@Iverath ok. Then do you think can you tell me what makes it different?
@@rhyskenshin7325 Just google it.
No offense, but you've not even begun to understand these things, and I'm not inclined to help you understand science.
If things were so good in the garden, what would they choose to sin? If things are so great in Heaven, why would angels rebel?
One of the questions of Christianity I find difficult is if getting into Heaven is premised on accepting Jesus as having paid for your sins, what about all the people who lived before Jesus? Are they just abandoned because they weren’t born at the right time? Is Moses in Hell?
No, they’re not all in Hell. The Bible mentions a bunch of Old Testament poisoned in Heaven by name. Jesus’s death and resurrection didn’t fit the first time make it so people could go to Heaven, it made it a once and for all sacrifice where as before relationship with God was severed from a believer until an animal sacrifice took place. They would put their hand on the animal, confess their sin and kill it in its place.
The next obvious question is “what would happen if they died before they were able to make a sacrifice but they believed?” The first king of Israel, Saul of Benjamin never sacrificed for his sin at the end and never repented in this manor, but the prophet Samuel says “tomorrow you and your sons will be with me in paradise” even back then, God was about faith.
There are several other questions that might arise from this answer, and I’m willing to answer them but didn’t want to drone on forever.
Why would god create, and put the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil IN the garden? That makes NO sense
Good point. But more importantly Adam and Eve couldn't have sinned when eating it. If the knowledge of right and wrong came AFTER they ate from the tree then they had no idea that what they were doing was wrong!
See Doug Batchelor and Edward Fudge on false doctrine of hell. Jesus didn't speak about hell, he spoke of a garbage dump called Gehenna. Is 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling grips the ungodly: “Who of us can dwell with a consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting flames?” 15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity, who refuses gain from extortion, whose hand never takes a bribe, who stops his ears against murderous plots and shuts his eyes tightly against evil
Please, please , please can you up the volume of your videos? They're so valuable, but I listen to them on the move and have to contend with other noises. I find other videos much better in this respect.
Thank you, didn’t realize they’re that low.
Got a new mic coming soon.
@@SeanMcDowell Many thanks:). If it helps, if you look at the audio profile using, e.g., Audacity, you can see that much of the speech occupies less than +/- 0.5 on the scale. By applying a bit of compression, which hardly affects the speech quality, you can pretty much double the volume. If you apply the compression before going into the recording, it will be possible to avoid post-processing after recording. Don't know if this helps, but many thanks for considering my comment anyway, really appreciated.
How about YHWH being referred in some ANE documents which predate Torah, where YHWH was one of the gods in Canaanite/whichever pantheon?
Asking as a Christian 🤠
I don't really find most of these were direct answers and I feel a lot of them fall very short of what a person may want. (by a lot).
0:57 Q: How does can a loving God allow evil? A: for purposes, jesus
Right off the bat, these are just unsatisfactory answers.
Side note: "Atheism/pantheism/other than christianity can't explain evil." They can, it's just a causality explanation. I find the statement that other beliefs can't explain it as just a silly claim to make.
5:49 Q: How can a loving God send someone to hell? A: We deserve it, but Jesus.
This is isn't answering the question or it's obvious intention.
Side note: "If we sin against an infinite god that's an infinite penalty." if this is the case you are advocating for a deity of the upmost malevolence and hatred towards it's creation to create this sort of infinite-punishment for finite crime or immoral action.
11:26 Q: Why is god so hidden? A: That's not a legitimate question, but he has made it obvious so that everyone should follow him.
Really? This sort of hardline "The Christian God is obvious everyone is just in denial" is just a dishonest position. Dr. McDowell I encourage you to push back more on this sort of rhetoric and Dr. Groothuis can you name 10 events God has interacted with in the last 100 years? Last 1,000 years? I don't think you can and I think you'd be hesitant to stake a claim on that because you know you can't back it up.
Side note: "You can always explain away miracles", yeah but shouldn't the evidence actually point towards a miracle instead of a natural explanation? That's the point.
15:18 Q: What about those who have never heard? A: Well they know of god through other means.
Not the Christian god. Not Jesus. So either Christianity is not needed and should not be preached for fear of rejection of it, or Christianity is needed and God is not just.
Side note: "Nobody asking about those who never heard falls into that category." 99.9999% of the world did not hear of Jesus when he rose to heaven. Did they go to hell for their lack of belief in Jesus? What about in the next 100 years? 200? Where is it when Christianity is required to be believed to avoid hell? (The purpose of the question was avoided.)
21:30 Q: Isn't the cross an example of divine child abuse? A: Well we have to understand that it's not.
I actually agree, but for a simpler reason, Jesus didn't really suffer and he didn't die. At least according to the deity rules of an all powerful deity, it's more that a skin cell turned off and on after 3 days.
Let me just group the last ones:
25:43 - Is Christianity racist since the Bible was used to promote and justify slavery?
30:38 - Is Christianity homophobic and hateful towards the LGBTQ community?
35:05 - Is Christianity at war with science?
39:00 - Is Christianity sexist?
Yes. Unequivocally yes. You can find the passages, you can find the historical beliefs of the church, of the mainstream beliefs, it's just silly to deny it.
I don't care if you can redefine stuff and modern society now adopts progressive ideals or w/e, I've been around long enough to know that the Church was all these things.
Are these answers supposed to be compelling?? They sounded like the inner monologue of a gibbering psychopath.
All people are evil unless or until they become born again believers of Jesus Christ and have been cleansed of their sins. Those who speak against God for allowing evil to exist in this world don't realize that they are evil and are part of the problem and are in need of God to make them righteous.
A good discussion and range of questions Christians should get together every week and discuss.
My general take:
0:57 - How can a loving and good God allow so much evil in the world?
5:49 - How can a loving God send someone to hell?
Evil:
Good and evil are the condition of things, they are negations of each other. They become created at the expense of the other. so if God created evil it would be in the sense that it is measured by good and no reason given for evil to exist. God is good, therefore evil is the rejection of God.
I believe these verses are saying the same thing:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
11:18 - Why is God so hidden?
This is a question that is asking for the second advent of Jesus Christ. We are vailed God's consuming presence by the incarnation and death of Jesus Christ.
19:12 - If Christianity is true, why is there so much abuse and damage done through the church?
This is like blaming the law that forbids driving through a red light because people do.
5:49 - How can a loving God send someone to hell?
Is hell a place like a metropolis of conscious tortured souls who will burn forever? In my reading and understanding, hell is the grave, and hell-fire is when the lost stand in God's consuming presence in their own strength. God is the everlasting fire that cannot be quenched. The lost are annihilated and not conscious.
21:30 - Isn't the cross an example of divine child abuse?
This is really a question of why God allowed the crucifixion. It was the creator who was crucified, God himself, therefore by claiming to accuse and correct God, they judge themselves because they claim to know the standard and have no excuse not to do right.
25:43 - Is Christianity racist since the Bible was used to promote and justify slavery?
There's only one race in scripture, the descendants of Adam and Eve, via Noah.
30:38 - Is Christianity homophobic and hateful towards the LGBTQ community?
No, this is an anti-children lifestyle that was anti-the Messiah and the incarnation. It covers all paraphilia, not just same-sex attraction.
35:05 - Is Christianity at war with science?
No, science is about knowledge. This in its modern form is about a philosophical rejection of God.
Of course there is no conflict between science and Christianity… if you simply accept that even the best attested scientific facts of history that are accepted to be true by the academic consensus of all experts on the planet must be wrong if they contradict the Christian creation myth.😂
37:18
He puts it perfectly here. Basically, if his presuppositions and reality don't match, it's because reality is obviously not working right that day.
If there is a scientific proof, then why we need to believe? Perhaps it is more a believe that there is scientific proof.
There is no scientific way of proving how the universe came about. People can theorize on to potential ways it happened, but ultimately none of them can be definitely proven. That leaves you with three options:
A. You just accept whatever secular theory is popular at the moment, even though said theory might be replaced by a newer one in light of new discoveries.
B. You just simply admit that you don't know and don't adopt any particular stance. If this was the case, than you should be open to considering both scientific and religious explanations, without antagonizing either of them.
C. You accept God as the source behind the universe and everything in it, as recorded in the Bible, which has stayed the same for millennia.
I don't know about you, but if you think about it this way, the third option doesn't seem so bad.
@@legodavid9260 I'd choose option A over C any day. The current secular theory is the closest we have gotten to the actual truth as it's based on scientific evidence, with each change bringing us closer to the real answer. It certainly seems more plausible than the uninformed conjecture of bronze age desert dwellers.
@@shuabshungne8043
Can you present a fact that you don't believe in?
Hell has been a challenge to my faith. What I just heard has no value at all. Weak philosophy. Eternal conscience punishment just sounds absurd. I no longer believe this as I just cannot accept a creator who would do this to his creation. You really need to stop and think about how awful this is and how many people would be going to hell every minute. I now believe in either annihilation or universal salvation. I don’t think people think hard enough about the hell question. Please check out the UA-cam group called Rethinking Hell. Also. I now realize that Christians do not believe in hell no matter what they say. Their actions say otherwise. If we truly believed in hell we would not be so concerned about sports and cars and houses and jobs etc. If we truly believed in hell we would spend every waking moment trying save the lost.
I know. These stuffy men sit there rationalizing why it’s ok for most people to be tortured. And that’s supposed to be reassuring?
And then consider all the people who will be blissful in heaven despite knowing some of their friends and family are being tortured, because god has “cleansed” them of such concerns. The whole thing sounds like a psychopath theater production.
This is why non-Christians just wish you’d leave the rest of us alone.
I agree with you. The more you honestly think about it it, the worse and worse you realize the doctrine of Hell is.
When you ask "Why does God allow so much evil?" you should ask yourself how much is too much
no matter what the quantity of evil is you could imagine there being more or imagine there being less.
The only alternative is for there to be none at all.
Or possibly the myth doesn't suffice to answer the question. The mistake was taking the deity of folks who wanted vengeance seriously as metaphysics and not metaphor (where it does have value). The point is that religion doesn't answer the question of why there is evil, nor are attempts to making a deity the super-combination of anything percieved to be good. It's a relatively childish and monochromatic way of looking at the world and why it tends to appeal to less educated folks who haven't seen a lot of diverse perspectives in their lives. The "God" myth should welcome the actual existence of other perspectives as the God of the cult is no God at all, is it?
How can a loving God allow those bookshelves to not line up?