i did too, but, i feel the helix sat better in the mix. but that's what you'd do to any amp to be recorded. just could feel less compression and natural amp feel with B.
Mad isn't it, on his jcm shootout I thought B was the best and the amp, followed by D, turns out they were axe FX and kemper, which sounded great but goes to show helix nailed the actual amp
Wow! I was dead wrong. Makes sense that the amp is more evenly compressed, especially on the palm mute lows. AMAZING job. Thank you so much for sharing this. It`s a killer tone and will be heavily used in the future on my songs. Cheers!
From this video, I believe Jon knows how to dial in modeler to sound as close as possible to real amp because he owns many tube amps. On the other hand, I, who have only one tube amp, find it difficult to dial in because my ear isn't used to the sound of real amp. In the end, I don't care anymore how close a modeler sound compared to real amp. I dial the modeler to get the sound that like. If I can't find it, I try another amp model. A good sound is a good sound regardless where it comes from.
I think of the real amp as giving us an accurate reference for what the individual amp model does. From there its just a matter of getting the tone you're looking for. To any one who is new to modelers, I recommend having a tone in mind so you have a goal and I place to stop when you get there. Though you should play with everything to learn your way around, you don't want to get lost in the Forrest of knob tweaking for eternity. Don't forget to save when you get your tone worked out.
That’s the biggest raft of turd there is. People need to beware that there’s sound, and then there’s the feel/experience of playing. The latter is currently very lacking. Some, maybe like yourself, don’t get bothered or notice, but many of us definitely do notice that loss of organic connection to the sound. It might save someone a lot of money and wasted time to realize that early on. Feel is just as important to creativity as is time spent hunched over a computer and mouse.
Wow Jon, in this video the amps sounded identical to me, where as in the last video there was more of a distinction. I had originally guessed that Tone A was the real amp, as it had that brightness and fullness I would expect from a real miked cab. But then I remembered that we're not in the old days of POD technology (nothing wrong with those days anyhow) and it could really go either way, brightness does not equal authenticity, now that modelers can capture that high end sizzle that Rectifiers have without sounding digital and harsh, I'm a happy camper. Many people commented on how Tone B felt more real to them, and that was fascinating to realize that modeling technology has come so far that any associations we have with something sounding analog or digital are being blurred. The results don't surprise me, so I realized I can go back and forth with this, A or B could be the real tone or they could be modeled though in the end I thought A sounded better to my ears. These tools are so helpful for us musicians, to be able to have a worlds worth of amplifiers at our fingertips!! Also glad you at least talked about "feel" and response. With a modeler you are hearing what a studio engineer might hear, the sound of an amp in a studio rather than in a room. Excellent video, and fantastic songwriting and tones as always!!
They both sounded great, and I couldn't tell the difference between them. I'm glad you used a Helix, as I recently purchased an HX Stomp. I'll have to test out your settings "without an IR." I hope I can get close - don't know if that's realistic or not, as I haven't tried any IR's yet. I found the test and results very interesting, and they sounded really inspiring. Thanks for showing the Helix Native settings. Real Amps aren't practical for me, so the results need to sound great in Monitoring Headphones. Subscribed
Your video comes up at the right time mate, I'm curently working on a Rectifier-based sound to match the rhythm sound of the last Nightwish album (very very scooped, almost no bass), so all these tips are coming quite handy ! Great great GREAT content !
Hey I was right! I also preferred A, which was a big part of it. Something awesome about modelers that no one seems to point out is they can achieve idealized versions of tones! There are many amps whose overall character I dig but then at the same time I don't fully get along with certain elements of their tone, and I felt I was hearing that in B. With the power of DSP it's easy to fix the rough edges to morph a tone into what we want while still keeping the awesomeness of the overall character of the real amp.
I guessed right! I had a bit of background that the Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier and the Soldano SLO essentially share a high gain preamp and I have heard Mike Soldano talk about the design of that preamp. (That's another interesting topic but I won't go into it.) Usually the way I can tell the real amp is the modeler, to my ears, usually has a harsher diode clipping thing. The problem with this test is that the SLO and Dual Rec preamps use cascading diode clipping to create the high gain symmetrical distortion which would create that harsh diode clipping sound no matter what. The power amps are where you see those amps sounds diverge the most. If you listen closely in the A/B comparison there is power amp distortion that's particularly noticeable in the lower-mid frequencies. I thought that immediately meant B was the real amp and so that's what I picked. Someone else pointed out to me that the Mesa would need to be cranked for that to be true and since it isn't present in A that could be the real rectifier and the modeler had poweramp distortion. I would love to see more focus on that since I think the Dual Rec is a particularly interesting amp for this type of comparison and with an SLO I wonder if you could get closer because of that different power amp section.
They sounded very, very similar to me. Very subtle differences. If they weren't played back to back or in a mix, I wouldn't have known any difference at all. The main thing for me between the newer modelers and tube amps is their ease of use.
Great video! I had picked B to be the real amp, so I was right there. But very subtle differences indeed! Can’t wait to copy these settings in my Helix! Great job! Thanks!
Great video! I think another good idea for a video “series” would be an “Artist Tones” series or Song tones series for the Helix. You could start off with like a Mark Tremonti tone (he uses a Rectifier and a PRS MT15) and he goes through mesa cabs and then has the wah at the front with just a little delay and a tube screamer at the end for his lead tones. But, it would be an interesting series to get the “exact” setup and exact tones for his gear in the Helix for those who want to dial it in for themselves. It could be the Rhythm, Lead and Clean tones the artist use. I know you’ve done this before with John Petrucci and I really enjoyed it (although that one is even probably ready for an update with the lates Distance over time album sound) but you could have some other artists as well. Great video and enjoyed the comparison! 👍🏻
i just couldn't find anything online that comes close to sounding as well rounded as a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier but you did the job right. Can't tell the difference.
Like and then watch the video. This one confirms the high quality of Helix. I really wanna buy one someday. Of course, terrific tones, as always. I'll wait for more blind tests with digital stuff, maybe Neural DSP or something like that.
Just looked it up and L6 used the same model you're using. "Based on a 2001, 3 Channel Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier Solo Head. - We used Channel 3 on the Modern setting for this one with the rear switches set to Bold and Tube Rectifier, respectively."
Both sounded almost identical. However, I found the Recto to sound a tiny bit "fuzzy" and I realized it was that one. In summary, I would go with the helix for easy/clean recording and the recto for the experience of playing a real tube amp.
For sure B had more low end, which is what I would go with at first glance. Very interesting comparison and must say Helix does a nice job and may be even tweaked further to make up for that missing low end. Great tone from that Mesa by the way, really nice!
Not being a rectifier expert, I could never guess which was real. I picked the Helix as a “better” or preferred tone. It had slightly better defined mids, which leads to popping out in mix, therefore; being able to turn down guitar and leave more space for vocals or lead guitars.
More tasty jams! Dude, I love your music. I would love if you published all of your songs just as they are. It would be awesome to see you be a guest guitarist with Mastodon too! You rock!
I got it right! but I'm sure it was a coincidence. if you asked me in different days I'd probably had thought the helix was the amp and viceversa. such a nice comparison! I like to think the differences in sound is like a difference between 2 amps of the same line, sutil, like they have a personality. it just happens to be that the helix's personality is more repeateable :) thanks for the great tones! love the channel.
It was hard to guess but the clue was that A sounded more “polished” and “finished”, like something you’d hear on a Metallica-record, where B had a bit more randomness into it, which made me guess it was the real amp! Awesome videos once again!
You all probably dont give a shit but does any of you know of a tool to get back into an instagram account?? I stupidly lost the account password. I would love any tips you can give me
@Charles Colby thanks so much for your reply. I got to the site thru google and I'm in the hacking process atm. Seems to take quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
Its nearly impossible to tell the two apart, great video! One question though: you being such an awesome guitar player, do you play in a band? Would love to hear your songs!
The thing with this that I and many people miss is YES: the modeler sounds “better” -especially in the mix. When you want to jam, and you’re going through a modeling platform vs a real amp... then you’ve got a different type of issue on your hands. The amp is more fun and feels so much better for that experience, and I don’t think anyone can argue that. Not any normal guitarist that isn’t afraid to play an amplifier that is. I’ve seen some players that are like a prude widow grandmother with their guitars volume.
Has much as I love my Helix, I thought it was pretty clear that B was the real amp and "better". I think cutting back on the gain and/or the mids just a tiny bit on the Helix one would've made the comparison even closer but still, two great sounding tones. However, on the next blind test I got fooled completely and really thought A was the real amp, it was the Helix :)
To me, sound-wise, modellers and sims have come so far that you'd be very hard-pressed to be able to distinguish between them and the real deal. But for me, and why I went back to real amps, is the feel when dialing in tones and the ease of just turning it on and play. Having to use software to dial in tones killed my inspiration and was a big reason why I stopped playing for almost 6 years. I finally figured out why, got myself a real amp (Engl Fireball 25) and am getting back into it now. Your channel was a huge reason why I got my interest up for amps again, so thanks for that! :) With all that said, as always, great videos! Any plans on getting the Badlander for comparison? Would love to see it against Dual Rec, Mark V35, Rec Mini, etc :)
Hi John, i put your settings in my Hx stomp and i really like this tone especially for drop Tunings. But i think it s difficult to get a good crunch and lead tone with the Cali Rectifier. Maybe you can help with another Video? That would we great. King regards.
This is awesome, I really suck at dialling in good tones with the helix, I just want to ask, how would you eq this set up for a live set up at higher volumes? I can get ok’ish tones at bedroom level, but in bigger spaces and higher volumes the tone just sucks 😂 I’m sure there’s loads of things I’m doing wrong, but if you have any tips on a live set up with this would be really great :)
Yeah, I got it right! Or rather I preferred "B". I own a Dual Rectifier so I gotta feel how they sound like. By dang these modeling are so close I have to admit. I played my friend's Yamaha model amp and there's something about the "A" that reminded me of 'modeling'.
I very much preferred the clip of the real amp in the blind test, but funnily enough I thought that was the modeler. Because to me, we're at a point where modelers actually sound better than real amps, and since I preferred it, I automatically assumed it was the modeler!
B had more top-end definition - I was hoping that would have been the Helix :) to finally close the case once and for all. Both were very close and this video was a great testament to how close modeling is getting to the real thing. In a mix, it's probably minimal. Nice job.
I copied your settings on Cali Rectifire and damn, I need a booster in front of it. Even with booster its not sound as tight as yours. It's muddy for some reason. I'm using Schecter Omen with Dimarzio CrunchLab and Liquifire pickups. Maybe my strings is old or... Idk. Tnx for the video BTW :)
The Super 57 pickup in my Les Paul has a nice cut and presence. The Crunchlab is cool but it has a lot of low end. Try placing an eq in front of the amp cutting some low end.
The IR is a big part of it. The stock IR's in Helix aren't super good. Highly recommend getting some 3rd party ones like the Ownhammers. Also, you're listening to a dual tracked tone, which can be much nicer than an individual sound.
Jon dude... thanks voor deze video, Recto’s zijn mn favo amps of all time, en wegens redenen kan ik geen echte veroorloven/spelen hier want... buren... dus ben ik al heel lang aan t zoeken naar die Recto sound zoals k m me herinner in mn Helix... en ik probeer deze settings en BAM daar is t 😂
It would be interesting to see how it sounds with a miced up cabinet if you use the sim pre amp into the boogie poweramp. Ofc in a versus with the built in preamp
Pretty cool! I got it right this time around. Although the modellers are getting close, I can usually tell which is which by the weird, hifi sounding highs modellers seem to always have present. They're getting close but no cigar IMO!
yes... same as you... the modelers have that quality that I can only describe as HiFi.... I do happen to like it... specially as the modeler is way lighter :-)
i've got a helix and my preset doesn't sound as good, can you share it? the only difference in the blind test i could hear was a little more saturation on the real amp and the helix was really close. thanks for sharing the preset in the video, i don't have that IR, but i do have a good one i can try out.
Did you forget to talk about the feeling of playing, going straight into the amp sim vs. the real amp? Or did I just missed that part? 🙂 Are you experiencing any difference between the two, or is it all the same to you?
So I guessed A was the modeler and B was the actual Mesa given Mesa amps have a signature "flubbiness" to the low frequencies. I wouldn't have been able to guess it was the Helix given I don't have enough experience with other modelers other than the Kemper to know their quirks, but I actually preferred the Helix over the sound of the real amp.
I think my tinnitus made me make a mistake because I was rigth!!! :) Seriously, in a mix it´s impossible to know for sure, I thought the Helix just because you use it a lot but there are a lot of plugins out there in the same ballpark. I think when we ask you about the feeling, it´s about the feeling playing, and how diffetent guitars "feel" when you play real amps vs. playing plugins. IMHO sometimes plugins feels like playing "plastic" even sounding good, for me, the feel playing with my couple of valve preamps it´s absolutely different than playing plugins. Or maybe I´m totally deaf...that could be... :)
Sounded really close. I thought i heard more high frequency digital fizz on A while B sounded smoother. But otherwise they sounded identical to my ears. I did gues that B was the real amp though. Very impressed to how extremely close you got with Helix. Amazing! Although i am a proud Helix owner, i still prefered the nice warm ‘smooth’ distortion of the real amp.
I truly love my HX Stomp. Very good comparison in the other vid. I was stumped. Lol. Question? What are you using for monitors for your modelers? Thanks. Love your work.
I said I preferred the sound of B, but couldn’t say which was which. I especially enjoyed seeing some many tube amp lovers (who claim that nothing could sound as good as a real tube amp) get it so wrong 🤣
Well, in live situations it still does matter, but unless you're going for a very specific sound, Modelers are more than good enough for recording now days.
@@guybuddy1 a lot of sound engineers tend to prefer working with little to no stage volume and having to deal with spill between mics and the volume war that tube amps can instigate. I think both have their place and own pros and cons.
As an engineer that has dealt with modelers both live and in studio, in a live situation I would prefer the modelers being used 9 times out of 10 unless the guitar player knows exactly what he is doing with his tone and how it affects the entire mix, and even then would probably use some sort of load box if possible with a cab sim to be sent to FOH. In a more controlled situation in studio it depends on the sounds I'm trying to achieve, if the band is trying to bring a crappy amp or one of my own amps does not adapt to the situation then yeah I go with an amp sim hands down. They sound so good in the mix when dialed in right. I usually even with amps record the dry signal from the performance for the chance of reamping later on...the creative and tonal possibilities are so big, it's awesome to be an engineer nowadays.
well the reason they sound the same is because you are you using a cab load and IR for the real amp.... that is your answer.....at some point do a comparison with a miced amp ( sm57 + R121) VS the helix ....THAT would be a good video
would increasing the master volume on the helix help with even'ing out the dynamics? since the sag control works in conjunction with the master control, and with a lower master volume the sag wont affect the dynamics as much?
As far as i know after some surf on the net, master parameter on helix are not just increasing volume but increasing gain also (channel volume are parameter that solely increasing volume) , sag are parameter that emulate the natural tube compression like real tube amp do As dynamics aspect that you mentioned before, I am not sure it will affected by master volume, not big deal for me since I play rock/metal high gain stuff A lot of people mentioned that helix sounds thin and lack of body and its very easy to get lost in the live full band mix, gain are the cause of this common problem because people tend to put much higher "gain parameter" at higher "master parameter" Since I am also like how fractal to sound, helix can sounda more like fractal by keeping master parameter low as possible (master vol at 1-3 and compensate the volume by increasing channel vol and IR db level parameter) , the thin and lack body that helix known of have solved, I got this info by watching videos of miko from ml sound lab, try to watch it sometimes: ua-cam.com/video/mcBn37_g_78/v-deo.html
I got the platform correct, but I guessed that A was the amp (which was wrong). The Helix sounded better than the amp because the amp sounded too dark and sludgy IMO.
I think this is one of the things often overlooked about modelers, in our desire for them to 'perfectly' match old, real amps. Many real amps have undesirable characteristics that people go to lengths to improve or eliminate, so maybe a better goal with modeling is to make ideal amps, instead of perfect re-creations. I don't have a strong opinion either way, I just think it's an idea worth considering.
@@400_billion_suns I agree. Boss has gone that route with their GT1000 series of products where they don't have any models explicitly trying to recreate a real world amp. Both Fractal and Line6 have done this to an extent as well with proprietary amp "models" along side recreations of classic amps. I like this approach (having models of real world amps as well as idealized models). Modelers can do it all these days and it is amazing.
John how do you get dual tracked guitar DI's to work with Helix in stereo with one instance? I can't figure out how to use Helix on double tracked guitars other than using an instance on the left guitar and an instance on the right guitar, then send those two tracks to a bus with a stereo impulse. I want to be able to use one instance on a stereo bus and have one amp block to mess with, etc. is that how you have it set up?
I always have one instance per guitar, so one per each side. I guess maybe you could use one instance on a stereo bus, using the 2 lanes? I'm not sure though as I've never tried that
What’s going on here… I’ve put the exact same settings and IR into my helix and it sounds completely different! The low end is out of control and overwhelming. Are you applying any EQ or cut to the bass that you haven’t mentioned in this video?
Awesome video! Can I ask you for an explanation of how you ended up arriving to the conclusion that you should modify Sag and Bias, and what criteria you used for that? On my HX Stomp I usually leave them on the default settings and the few times I tweaked them, I didn't really feel/hear any difference. Thank you!
Here's my attempt at the easiest explanation: bias adjusts 'fatness' and warmth, at the expense of dynamics. Increase it to make things fatter/fuller/less dynamic; decrease it to make the sound more lively but also more brittle. If you go too low, you'll start hearing prominent crossover distortion (a crackle that many people mistake for a digital artifact). As for sag, this changes tone a bit but it's probably best understood as a 'feel' parameter. Adjust it til the responsiveness of the amp feels closest to your ideal. It affects the early attack and bloom of notes, but is probably most noticeable to the person playing rather than those listening.
@@400_billion_suns I describe sag in Helix as kind of a 'tightness' setting. Lower sag = more tightness. Higher sag = more flubbiness. Can pretty heavily affect the characteristic of an amp's sound.
Your accent is impeccable, only now that I know that you're dutch (from one of the videos where we could see the language in your PC) do I detect the dutchie :D
Having a hard time deciding between a kemper and helix. Watching your videos help lean towards a helix but I’m really looking for the Dissection Reinkaos Tone! Will helix with ownhammer irs achieve this tone??? HELP!!!!
I haven't heard of that band. I would think about how you want to get your tones. Will you profile your own amps or rely on profiles from others? Or so you want to be able to build tones from scratch? In that case the Helix would be the best option obviously.
I've been using Helix native for about two years now. I've noticed that there is an odd phasing-ish issue that becomes apparent when doubled guitars are panned in stereo. It's very noticeable in the first video you posted comparing the Helix to the rectifier. When you listen to the Helix there seems to be a stereo bleed over to the center. It's a weird muddy, hissing, distortion sound, but lacking in harmonics. Kind of like white noise. When you listen to the rectifier, it's perfectly clear in each ear without that noise in the center. Does anyone have any tips to solve this? Is it just the amp sim and the way it's programmed?
It is just the nature of Digital. Modelers also clash wildly with hi-hats because of the digital fizz inherent in modeling. Once you hear it you can't unhear it, unfortuately. Listen to the Helix full mix and pay attention to the hi-hats...the volume dips a lot and the phase is way off in certain parts. The Mesa example doesn't have that issue. One way to combat it is to add a very short pre-delay to one of your IRs. Some IR loaders feature an offset option...3 milliseconds is enough to fool your ears a bit and open up space for hi-hats.
I tried these exact settings, have 2 les pauls a les paul copy by tokai and a cheap peavy fender with a dimarzio. You have no low end roll off on your IR I've noticed. I tried this exactly with my pod go. My cheap guitar is the one that sounds the least boomy with my dimarizo. The other guitars are a Slash gibson with alnico 2 pro copies, the tokai with an alnico 2 pro by seymour, and stock pick ups in a gibson traditional. Why is my low end so flubby and bass heavy without any low end roll off on the IR??? I have some ownhammer and other IR's and many of them are boomy without any low cut roll off. What is happening? I know the IR makes a difference. I'm listening monitoring and eq'ing and following a long with my studio monitors.
@user-zj4tt2ey9o yup I ditched line 6 pod go! I'm not going back. I have a katana. It's way easier to dial in! Not this tone but in general its very eazy to get good tones! I don't have to deep dive Into software to do it either!
Hehe I even guessed that it was the Helix. I have one myself and mine has the same digital fizz. But still I admit that my guess was absolute luck :) So people if you can't afford 20 tube amps buy one of the modelers. But as he points out in the video you have to fiddle with the settings to get the best results.
I guessed right. Most of the time in these tests the modeller actually sounds better to my ears.
i did too, but, i feel the helix sat better in the mix. but that's what you'd do to any amp to be recorded. just could feel less compression and natural amp feel with B.
Mad isn't it, on his jcm shootout I thought B was the best and the amp, followed by D, turns out they were axe FX and kemper, which sounded great but goes to show helix nailed the actual amp
For recording and live the Helix is killer. Having access to all those high quality models in one package is really cool.
We are living the times when a modeling amps start actually sound as good, or even better than real tube amps (when recorded at least). Wow, finally!
This is one of the best tones I've heard from the Helix. Well done!
Wow! I was dead wrong. Makes sense that the amp is more evenly compressed, especially on the palm mute lows.
AMAZING job. Thank you so much for sharing this. It`s a killer tone and will be heavily used in the future on my songs.
Cheers!
From this video, I believe Jon knows how to dial in modeler to sound as close as possible to real amp because he owns many tube amps. On the other hand, I, who have only one tube amp, find it difficult to dial in because my ear isn't used to the sound of real amp. In the end, I don't care anymore how close a modeler sound compared to real amp. I dial the modeler to get the sound that like. If I can't find it, I try another amp model. A good sound is a good sound regardless where it comes from.
I think of the real amp as giving us an accurate reference for what the individual amp model does. From there its just a matter of getting the tone you're looking for.
To any one who is new to modelers, I recommend having a tone in mind so you have a goal and I place to stop when you get there. Though you should play with everything to learn your way around, you don't want to get lost in the Forrest of knob tweaking for eternity. Don't forget to save when you get your tone worked out.
You just described my thoughts on the subject perfectly!
That’s the biggest raft of turd there is. People need to beware that there’s sound, and then there’s the feel/experience of playing. The latter is currently very lacking. Some, maybe like yourself, don’t get bothered or notice, but many of us definitely do notice that loss of organic connection to the sound. It might save someone a lot of money and wasted time to realize that early on.
Feel is just as important to creativity as is time spent hunched over a computer and mouse.
True
Thank you for cracking the code to using the Cali Rectifier!! I copied your settings and there it was.
Wow Jon, in this video the amps sounded identical to me, where as in the last video there was more of a distinction. I had originally guessed that Tone A was the real amp, as it had that brightness and fullness I would expect from a real miked cab. But then I remembered that we're not in the old days of POD technology (nothing wrong with those days anyhow) and it could really go either way, brightness does not equal authenticity, now that modelers can capture that high end sizzle that Rectifiers have without sounding digital and harsh, I'm a happy camper. Many people commented on how Tone B felt more real to them, and that was fascinating to realize that modeling technology has come so far that any associations we have with something sounding analog or digital are being blurred. The results don't surprise me, so I realized I can go back and forth with this, A or B could be the real tone or they could be modeled though in the end I thought A sounded better to my ears. These tools are so helpful for us musicians, to be able to have a worlds worth of amplifiers at our fingertips!! Also glad you at least talked about "feel" and response. With a modeler you are hearing what a studio engineer might hear, the sound of an amp in a studio rather than in a room. Excellent video, and fantastic songwriting and tones as always!!
They both sounded great, and I couldn't tell the difference between them. I'm glad you used a Helix, as I recently purchased an HX Stomp. I'll have to test out your settings "without an IR." I hope I can get close - don't know if that's realistic or not, as I haven't tried any IR's yet. I found the test and results very interesting, and they sounded really inspiring. Thanks for showing the Helix Native settings.
Real Amps aren't practical for me, so the results need to sound great in Monitoring Headphones. Subscribed
Your video comes up at the right time mate, I'm curently working on a Rectifier-based sound to match the rhythm sound of the last Nightwish album (very very scooped, almost no bass), so all these tips are coming quite handy ! Great great GREAT content !
Hey I was right! I also preferred A, which was a big part of it. Something awesome about modelers that no one seems to point out is they can achieve idealized versions of tones! There are many amps whose overall character I dig but then at the same time I don't fully get along with certain elements of their tone, and I felt I was hearing that in B. With the power of DSP it's easy to fix the rough edges to morph a tone into what we want while still keeping the awesomeness of the overall character of the real amp.
I guessed right! I had a bit of background that the Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier and the Soldano SLO essentially share a high gain preamp and I have heard Mike Soldano talk about the design of that preamp. (That's another interesting topic but I won't go into it.) Usually the way I can tell the real amp is the modeler, to my ears, usually has a harsher diode clipping thing. The problem with this test is that the SLO and Dual Rec preamps use cascading diode clipping to create the high gain symmetrical distortion which would create that harsh diode clipping sound no matter what. The power amps are where you see those amps sounds diverge the most. If you listen closely in the A/B comparison there is power amp distortion that's particularly noticeable in the lower-mid frequencies. I thought that immediately meant B was the real amp and so that's what I picked. Someone else pointed out to me that the Mesa would need to be cranked for that to be true and since it isn't present in A that could be the real rectifier and the modeler had poweramp distortion. I would love to see more focus on that since I think the Dual Rec is a particularly interesting amp for this type of comparison and with an SLO I wonder if you could get closer because of that different power amp section.
They sounded very, very similar to me. Very subtle differences. If they weren't played back to back or in a mix, I wouldn't have known any difference at all. The main thing for me between the newer modelers and tube amps is their ease of use.
I was totally wrong!
Jon you need to release a Helix Presets pack. You are a sonic genius!
Couldn`t agree more.
I vote for that too....
Yup, money to be made, I'm in for a purchase as I'm too lazy to build my own.
a good pack for the HX Stomp would be fantastic.
I wouldn't mind the preset of the previous video, did he release it?
Great video! I had picked B to be the real amp, so I was right there. But very subtle differences indeed! Can’t wait to copy these settings in my Helix! Great job! Thanks!
Great video! I think another good idea for a video “series” would be an “Artist Tones” series or Song tones series for the Helix. You could start off with like a Mark Tremonti tone (he uses a Rectifier and a PRS MT15) and he goes through mesa cabs and then has the wah at the front with just a little delay and a tube screamer at the end for his lead tones. But, it would be an interesting series to get the “exact” setup and exact tones for his gear in the Helix for those who want to dial it in for themselves. It could be the Rhythm, Lead and Clean tones the artist use. I know you’ve done this before with John Petrucci and I really enjoyed it (although that one is even probably ready for an update with the lates Distance over time album sound) but you could have some other artists as well. Great video and enjoyed the comparison! 👍🏻
i just couldn't find anything online that comes close to sounding as well rounded as a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier but you did the job right. Can't tell the difference.
Like and then watch the video.
This one confirms the high quality of Helix. I really wanna buy one someday. Of course, terrific tones, as always. I'll wait for more blind tests with digital stuff, maybe Neural DSP or something like that.
Just looked it up and L6 used the same model you're using.
"Based on a 2001, 3 Channel Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier Solo Head. - We used Channel 3 on the Modern setting for this one with the rear switches set to Bold and Tube Rectifier, respectively."
The Helix series is such an improvement from the Pod Series
Both sounded almost identical. However, I found the Recto to sound a tiny bit "fuzzy" and I realized it was that one. In summary, I would go with the helix for easy/clean recording and the recto for the experience of playing a real tube amp.
man I've been waiting for this
For sure B had more low end, which is what I would go with at first glance. Very interesting comparison and must say Helix does a nice job and may be even tweaked further to make up for that missing low end. Great tone from that Mesa by the way, really nice!
Not being a rectifier expert, I could never guess which was real. I picked the Helix as a “better” or preferred tone. It had slightly better defined mids, which leads to popping out in mix, therefore; being able to turn down guitar and leave more space for vocals or lead guitars.
both sound great tbh
More tasty jams! Dude, I love your music. I would love if you published all of your songs just as they are. It would be awesome to see you be a guest guitarist with Mastodon too! You rock!
I got it right! but I'm sure it was a coincidence. if you asked me in different days I'd probably had thought the helix was the amp and viceversa. such a nice comparison! I like to think the differences in sound is like a difference between 2 amps of the same line, sutil, like they have a personality. it just happens to be that the helix's personality is more repeateable :) thanks for the great tones! love the channel.
Thanks!
It was hard to guess but the clue was that A sounded more “polished” and “finished”, like something you’d hear on a Metallica-record, where B had a bit more randomness into it, which made me guess it was the real amp! Awesome videos once again!
You all probably dont give a shit but does any of you know of a tool to get back into an instagram account??
I stupidly lost the account password. I would love any tips you can give me
@Judson Bradley Instablaster ;)
@Charles Colby thanks so much for your reply. I got to the site thru google and I'm in the hacking process atm.
Seems to take quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
@Charles Colby It did the trick and I now got access to my account again. I am so happy!
Thanks so much you saved my account!
@Judson Bradley glad I could help :D
Excellent vid sick demo and it's very hard to distinguish both tones.
I was wrong and I already own the Helix. Very nice
I was wrong! What a great plugin
Very close indeed. Great riffs too!
Great! I was right in the blind audition clip.
Its nearly impossible to tell the two apart, great video! One question though: you being such an awesome guitar player, do you play in a band? Would love to hear your songs!
1:50 what is the "feel" if you send the emulated Rectifier from Helix to a 4x12 Mesa? Would it "feel" way closer to the real Rectifier amp?
The thing with this that I and many people miss is YES: the modeler sounds “better” -especially in the mix.
When you want to jam, and you’re going through a modeling platform vs a real amp... then you’ve got a different type of issue on your hands.
The amp is more fun and feels so much better for that experience, and I don’t think anyone can argue that. Not any normal guitarist that isn’t afraid to play an amplifier that is. I’ve seen some players that are like a prude widow grandmother with their guitars volume.
This channel convinced me to buy a Helix.
Great! Congrats!
api 560a eq on the recto killer, my 500 series chain
Suddenly the Helix turn into a incredible piece even for Quad Cortex wanna be users and Fractal and so on... that 3.10 and 3.11 update are killer
Has much as I love my Helix, I thought it was pretty clear that B was the real amp and "better".
I think cutting back on the gain and/or the mids just a tiny bit on the Helix one would've made the comparison even closer but still, two great sounding tones.
However, on the next blind test I got fooled completely and really thought A was the real amp, it was the Helix :)
To me, sound-wise, modellers and sims have come so far that you'd be very hard-pressed to be able to distinguish between them and the real deal. But for me, and why I went back to real amps, is the feel when dialing in tones and the ease of just turning it on and play. Having to use software to dial in tones killed my inspiration and was a big reason why I stopped playing for almost 6 years. I finally figured out why, got myself a real amp (Engl Fireball 25) and am getting back into it now. Your channel was a huge reason why I got my interest up for amps again, so thanks for that! :)
With all that said, as always, great videos! Any plans on getting the Badlander for comparison? Would love to see it against Dual Rec, Mark V35, Rec Mini, etc :)
Jon Thanks for this video. Could you do some more of these amps vs helix or modeler videos?
Hi John, i put your settings in my Hx stomp and i really like this tone especially for drop Tunings.
But i think it s difficult to get a good crunch and lead tone with the Cali Rectifier. Maybe you can help with another Video?
That would we great.
King regards.
nice work buddy!!! good emulation from Helix though!!
This is awesome, I really suck at dialling in good tones with the helix,
I just want to ask, how would you eq this set up for a live set up at higher volumes?
I can get ok’ish tones at bedroom level, but in bigger spaces and higher volumes the tone just sucks 😂 I’m sure there’s loads of things I’m doing wrong, but if you have any tips on a live set up with this would be really great :)
Yeah, I got it right! Or rather I preferred "B". I own a Dual Rectifier so I gotta feel how they sound like. By dang these modeling are so close I have to admit. I played my friend's Yamaha model amp and there's something about the "A" that reminded me of 'modeling'.
I have the helix native, and I don't know how it made it sound like this in stereo, can someone explain to me? This is incredible !.
Hi from the future! I’m pretty sure he is double tracking - recording the same guitar part twice, once on each channel (left and right).
That's great, I really liked the A version!
I very much preferred the clip of the real amp in the blind test, but funnily enough I thought that was the modeler. Because to me, we're at a point where modelers actually sound better than real amps, and since I preferred it, I automatically assumed it was the modeler!
B had more top-end definition - I was hoping that would have been the Helix :) to finally close the case once and for all. Both were very close and this video was a great testament to how close modeling is getting to the real thing. In a mix, it's probably minimal. Nice job.
Great video. Sound is awsome. Can you recomend an FRFR speaker to use with Helix floor or Pod Go?
In any test...The DULLER sounding is usually the real amp, safest bet
I copied your settings on Cali Rectifire and damn, I need a booster in front of it.
Even with booster its not sound as tight as yours. It's muddy for some reason.
I'm using Schecter Omen with Dimarzio CrunchLab and Liquifire pickups. Maybe my strings is old or... Idk.
Tnx for the video BTW :)
The Super 57 pickup in my Les Paul has a nice cut and presence. The Crunchlab is cool but it has a lot of low end. Try placing an eq in front of the amp cutting some low end.
@@SonicDriveStudio I will try :)
@@SonicDriveStudio I done what you said with EQ in front of amp and yeah, it's sounds good :)
The IR is a big part of it. The stock IR's in Helix aren't super good. Highly recommend getting some 3rd party ones like the Ownhammers. Also, you're listening to a dual tracked tone, which can be much nicer than an individual sound.
Jon dude... thanks voor deze video, Recto’s zijn mn favo amps of all time, en wegens redenen kan ik geen echte veroorloven/spelen hier want... buren... dus ben ik al heel lang aan t zoeken naar die Recto sound zoals k m me herinner in mn Helix... en ik probeer deze settings en BAM daar is t 😂
It would be interesting to see how it sounds with a miced up cabinet if you use the sim pre amp into the boogie poweramp. Ofc in a versus with the built in preamp
I picked B just purely because I thought it just had a slight additional warmth to it. But really so close.
Your 2CV car is from the movie "Le corniaud"?
Pretty cool! I got it right this time around. Although the modellers are getting close, I can usually tell which is which by the weird, hifi sounding highs modellers seem to always have present. They're getting close but no cigar IMO!
yes... same as you... the modelers have that quality that I can only describe as HiFi.... I do happen to like it... specially as the modeler is way lighter :-)
You got lucky is all.
i've got a helix and my preset doesn't sound as good, can you share it? the only difference in the blind test i could hear was a little more saturation on the real amp and the helix was really close.
thanks for sharing the preset in the video, i don't have that IR, but i do have a good one i can try out.
The real amp sounds so much better ... just kidding. I would have picked the Helix in the blind test
Damn! I was hoping I didn't pick the Modeled amp. It sounds better. But, I'll take a Mesa Boogie any day.
Did you forget to talk about the feeling of playing, going straight into the amp sim vs. the real amp? Or did I just missed that part? 🙂 Are you experiencing any difference between the two, or is it all the same to you?
I guessed right. Its very close though. If I was wrong i wouldn't have been surprised. I have both of these.
Great video
Can you tell which audio interface did you use for helix native
So I guessed A was the modeler and B was the actual Mesa given Mesa amps have a signature "flubbiness" to the low frequencies. I wouldn't have been able to guess it was the Helix given I don't have enough experience with other modelers other than the Kemper to know their quirks, but I actually preferred the Helix over the sound of the real amp.
I think my tinnitus made me make a mistake because I was rigth!!! :) Seriously, in a mix it´s impossible to know for sure, I thought the Helix just because you use it a lot but there are a lot of plugins out there in the same ballpark.
I think when we ask you about the feeling, it´s about the feeling playing, and how diffetent guitars "feel" when you play real amps vs. playing plugins. IMHO sometimes plugins feels like playing "plastic" even sounding good, for me, the feel playing with my couple of valve preamps it´s absolutely different than playing plugins.
Or maybe I´m totally deaf...that could be... :)
Do you have any videos on mic placement for recording guitars? I for whatever reason can not land a good recording tone like yours sounds
Perfect configuration for nu metal 🤘. Greetings from chile 👽
Sounded really close. I thought i heard more high frequency digital fizz on A while B sounded smoother. But otherwise they sounded identical to my ears. I did gues that B was the real amp though. Very impressed to how extremely close you got with Helix. Amazing!
Although i am a proud Helix owner, i still prefered the nice warm ‘smooth’ distortion of the real amp.
Sounds amazing
Great melody itself, where I can hear the full version?
I truly love my HX Stomp. Very good comparison in the other vid. I was stumped. Lol.
Question? What are you using for monitors for your modelers? Thanks. Love your work.
Adam A77x
One of the hardest amps to dial in the Helix.
YEEEAAHH I WAS RIGHT! B IS A REAL AMP! :D
You cannot copy mesa's sizzle (at least for now) ;D
I said I preferred the sound of B, but couldn’t say which was which.
I especially enjoyed seeing some many tube amp lovers (who claim that nothing could sound as good as a real tube amp) get it so wrong 🤣
Well, in live situations it still does matter, but unless you're going for a very specific sound, Modelers are more than good enough for recording now days.
@@guybuddy1 a lot of sound engineers tend to prefer working with little to no stage volume and having to deal with spill between mics and the volume war that tube amps can instigate. I think both have their place and own pros and cons.
As an engineer that has dealt with modelers both live and in studio, in a live situation I would prefer the modelers being used 9 times out of 10 unless the guitar player knows exactly what he is doing with his tone and how it affects the entire mix, and even then would probably use some sort of load box if possible with a cab sim to be sent to FOH. In a more controlled situation in studio it depends on the sounds I'm trying to achieve, if the band is trying to bring a crappy amp or one of my own amps does not adapt to the situation then yeah I go with an amp sim hands down. They sound so good in the mix when dialed in right. I usually even with amps record the dry signal from the performance for the chance of reamping later on...the creative and tonal possibilities are so big, it's awesome to be an engineer nowadays.
well the reason they sound the same is because you are you using a cab load and IR for the real amp.... that is your answer.....at some point do a comparison with a miced amp ( sm57 + R121) VS the helix ....THAT would be a good video
would increasing the master volume on the helix help with even'ing out the dynamics? since the sag control works in conjunction with the master control, and with a lower master volume the sag wont affect the dynamics as much?
As far as i know after some surf on the net, master parameter on helix are not just increasing volume but increasing gain also (channel volume are parameter that solely increasing volume) , sag are parameter that emulate the natural tube compression like real tube amp do
As dynamics aspect that you mentioned before, I am not sure it will affected by master volume, not big deal for me since I play rock/metal high gain stuff
A lot of people mentioned that helix sounds thin and lack of body and its very easy to get lost in the live full band mix, gain are the cause of this common problem because people tend to put much higher "gain parameter" at higher "master parameter"
Since I am also like how fractal to sound, helix can sounda more like fractal by keeping master parameter low as possible (master vol at 1-3 and compensate the volume by increasing channel vol and IR db level parameter) , the thin and lack body that helix known of have solved,
I got this info by watching videos of miko from ml sound lab, try to watch it sometimes:
ua-cam.com/video/mcBn37_g_78/v-deo.html
I did try that but the virtual power tubes just got saturated too much. 3.3 seemed the sweetspot.
Sounded great man, any chance to get that preset?
So what if I plug a pod go with these settings and ir's into my 5150 el34 clean channel to play live?
Well this proves that I did a very good choice with Helix Native for sure... Thank you for boosting my ego lol :)
I got the platform correct, but I guessed that A was the amp (which was wrong). The Helix sounded better than the amp because the amp sounded too dark and sludgy IMO.
I think this is one of the things often overlooked about modelers, in our desire for them to 'perfectly' match old, real amps. Many real amps have undesirable characteristics that people go to lengths to improve or eliminate, so maybe a better goal with modeling is to make ideal amps, instead of perfect re-creations. I don't have a strong opinion either way, I just think it's an idea worth considering.
@@400_billion_suns I agree. Boss has gone that route with their GT1000 series of products where they don't have any models explicitly trying to recreate a real world amp. Both Fractal and Line6 have done this to an extent as well with proprietary amp "models" along side recreations of classic amps. I like this approach (having models of real world amps as well as idealized models). Modelers can do it all these days and it is amazing.
John how do you get dual tracked guitar DI's to work with Helix in stereo with one instance? I can't figure out how to use Helix on double tracked guitars other than using an instance on the left guitar and an instance on the right guitar, then send those two tracks to a bus with a stereo impulse. I want to be able to use one instance on a stereo bus and have one amp block to mess with, etc. is that how you have it set up?
I always have one instance per guitar, so one per each side. I guess maybe you could use one instance on a stereo bus, using the 2 lanes? I'm not sure though as I've never tried that
Hehe i was right my ears didnt failed me :)
Nice video!
how do you compare the 3 channel non multiwatt to a actual multiwatt or rev g 2 channel?
The dual rec is amazing but so expensive!!!
so is the helix
have you tried dialing the same tone using the axe-fx?
What’s going on here… I’ve put the exact same settings and IR into my helix and it sounds completely different! The low end is out of control and overwhelming.
Are you applying any EQ or cut to the bass that you haven’t mentioned in this video?
I was right, the highs and brightness of A gave it away
Awesome video!
Can I ask you for an explanation of how you ended up arriving to the conclusion that you should modify Sag and Bias, and what criteria you used for that?
On my HX Stomp I usually leave them on the default settings and the few times I tweaked them, I didn't really feel/hear any difference.
Thank you!
Just by using my ears.... It sounded more accurate to me that way.
Here's my attempt at the easiest explanation: bias adjusts 'fatness' and warmth, at the expense of dynamics. Increase it to make things fatter/fuller/less dynamic; decrease it to make the sound more lively but also more brittle. If you go too low, you'll start hearing prominent crossover distortion (a crackle that many people mistake for a digital artifact). As for sag, this changes tone a bit but it's probably best understood as a 'feel' parameter. Adjust it til the responsiveness of the amp feels closest to your ideal. It affects the early attack and bloom of notes, but is probably most noticeable to the person playing rather than those listening.
Thanks!
@@400_billion_suns I describe sag in Helix as kind of a 'tightness' setting. Lower sag = more tightness. Higher sag = more flubbiness. Can pretty heavily affect the characteristic of an amp's sound.
Sounds really good for no boost!
Dude i want to connect my helix to a peavy cab how i can make it work? or do i need a power cab?
Your accent is impeccable, only now that I know that you're dutch (from one of the videos where we could see the language in your PC) do I detect the dutchie :D
Very good work. Helix is good, but your amp has more a pleasing sound, some je ne sais quoi that gets you ;-)
Hi. Loved the Workhorse pack myself too.. Do you have any information if Ownhammer will release another pack for a different Speaker?
Maybe...
@@SonicDriveStudio Greenback workhorse incoming? 😉🤔
Does he sell his settings on the line 6 web page?
I was unfortunately mistaken :) Is there a chance for a preset? :) Greetings. Professional sound.
Having a hard time deciding between a kemper and helix. Watching your videos help lean towards a helix but I’m really looking for the Dissection Reinkaos Tone! Will helix with ownhammer irs achieve this tone??? HELP!!!!
I haven't heard of that band. I would think about how you want to get your tones. Will you profile your own amps or rely on profiles from others? Or so you want to be able to build tones from scratch? In that case the Helix would be the best option obviously.
I've been using Helix native for about two years now. I've noticed that there is an odd phasing-ish issue that becomes apparent when doubled guitars are panned in stereo.
It's very noticeable in the first video you posted comparing the Helix to the rectifier. When you listen to the Helix there seems to be a stereo bleed over to the center. It's a weird muddy, hissing, distortion sound, but lacking in harmonics. Kind of like white noise. When you listen to the rectifier, it's perfectly clear in each ear without that noise in the center.
Does anyone have any tips to solve this? Is it just the amp sim and the way it's programmed?
It is just the nature of Digital. Modelers also clash wildly with hi-hats because of the digital fizz inherent in modeling. Once you hear it you can't unhear it, unfortuately. Listen to the Helix full mix and pay attention to the hi-hats...the volume dips a lot and the phase is way off in certain parts. The Mesa example doesn't have that issue.
One way to combat it is to add a very short pre-delay to one of your IRs. Some IR loaders feature an offset option...3 milliseconds is enough to fool your ears a bit and open up space for hi-hats.
@@Crowbar11115 I appreciate the tip! Is there a modeler that isn't as problematic as Helix!
I tried these exact settings, have 2 les pauls a les paul copy by tokai and a cheap peavy fender with a dimarzio. You have no low end roll off on your IR I've noticed. I tried this exactly with my pod go. My cheap guitar is the one that sounds the least boomy with my dimarizo. The other guitars are a Slash gibson with alnico 2 pro copies, the tokai with an alnico 2 pro by seymour, and stock pick ups in a gibson traditional.
Why is my low end so flubby and bass heavy without any low end roll off on the IR???
I have some ownhammer and other IR's and many of them are boomy without any low cut roll off.
What is happening?
I know the IR makes a difference.
I'm listening monitoring and eq'ing and following a long with my studio monitors.
@user-zj4tt2ey9o yup I ditched line 6 pod go! I'm not going back. I have a katana. It's way easier to dial in! Not this tone but in general its very eazy to get good tones! I don't have to deep dive
Into software to do it either!
Great Video! Can you share with us this preset?
Wouldn't probably sound as good without the IR he used that he wont be able to share
Hehe I even guessed that it was the Helix. I have one myself and mine has the same digital fizz. But still I admit that my guess was absolute luck :) So people if you can't afford 20 tube amps buy one of the modelers. But as he points out in the video you have to fiddle with the settings to get the best results.