Are Its Leaders Destroying The Church of England?
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- Опубліковано 15 лип 2024
- Are the Church of England destroying it or is there just a disconnect between the parish and its leaders?
Article Link: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024...
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The problem is not primarily that the leaders are disconnected from parish life; it's primarily that they do not believe the Gospel. Galatians 1:9.
Well said.
"Two per cent of Anglican priests don't believe in God, survey finds" - Article in the Independent dated 27 October 2014. I wonder what those figures are now today???
Deception and unbelief. Galatians 1:9 a distinct possibility but I am praying for some Bishops.
@@steynglass1007 I met a nice greek today. Therefore all greeks must be nice.
So, in a fresh mask-slip moment, some senior people in the C-of-E now want to _apologise_ for spreading the Gospel in Africa in former centuries, and thereby converting people away from other religions!? Now my King James Bible records Jesus as saying: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me". That seems pretty clear cut to me. It is evident that these clerics (so-called) are not in any sense followers of Jesus Christ or obedient to His word, if they want to _apologise_ for bringing the Gospel to people...
A vicar said to me recently that he didn't accept the BIBLE. So I don't accept him....
I have no faith in the top echelons of the Church of England. I feel very sad that as usual the people at the coal face are let down by the people at the top. I now longer attend Church which I have done for over 45 years. The Church has destroyed itself because of one man at the top.
If you aren't comfortable with the Church of England the answer is not to give up attending church services. It's either to fight to change things or to move to a church from some other denomination where you are comfortable. Trying to be a Christian without being part of a local church community is to reject most of what scripture says about how we are to live out our faith, and to reject the universal tradition of the church from the first century onward. The only good reason to neglect meeting together is if you are in a situation where this is impossible (such as imprisonment, being housebound, or being a missionary to an area where there aren't yet any converts and you haven't' been able to bring along a team).
Synod is now literally that - a sin-nod. A disgrace before God.
More than just a "nod" towards sin at the moment, I fear! 😮
Great play on words, but sadly true, God bless you
@@neilbunyan3090 God bless you too.
I do not feel that the church hierarchy values my demographic. The ABY has said that there are too many older white educated men in the church - I was tempted to write to him and offer to resign. However I came to the conclusion that I have been a Christian longer than he has, and he will not force me to leave. The structure of the church is flat and consists of the high priest Jesus and his body of Christians.
They're a little interested in uneducated male natives now, but often their training techniques put people off because it's more like they're asking working class native men to act like international middle class as a requirement of progressing, rather than teaching Scripture.
By ABY do you mean the ABC, I.e. Archbishop of Canterbury?
@@lestorhaslam I think he means York.
@@lestorhaslam Archbishop of York?
no - ABY is York - Stephen Cottrell - I was concerned by his words - If all older white educated men left there would be a problem I would think. However I came to the conclusion that my opinion was as good as his.
I now attend a Free Evangelical Church
I can understand why.
Way to go!
Good for you. I attend my delightful, ancient, quiet, rural Anglicn, church, and it is a joy. Even if it is suspect to some people...
Sorry when a church has archdeacons, bishops and archbishops with bishops palaces etc you cannot claim to have a flat ministry structure.
The CoE has a hierarchical ecclesiology with the monarch at the top as supreme governor.
That has been the point of it, King James said 'No bishops? No King!'.
I don't mind the Monarch - he is self supporting. I DO mind all the people connected with central offices
Jesus Himself tells us how to live, be, and run the church. Matt. 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you". Seek ye FIRST! Chris x
Your interpretations are solipsistic. I suggest you read in a different way.
One of the problems in financially sustaining clergy posts DOES come from the Church Commissioners and is NOT just a diocesan issue. The CC's changed the basis of the "grant" financing clergy posts. They went from a "flat" numbers model to one where "bids" had to be made on the basis of either mission or depravation. That is on top of the wastefulness of Dioceses and their creation of cenralised"non" posts each of which seeks to suck time, attention and resources from local parishes.
Before they can Build Back Better, first they must destroy .
I see more and people return to Christ but apparently they’re not returning to the Church. Now we know why
Rev Dan I have listened to you on many occasions. I sense the difficulty that you have in trying to give a balanced view. Keep up the good work. The Lord will prevail.
Perfect!
The Church of England killed itself decades ago when it embraced secularist ideals and rejected Gospel truths. Your best hope is the third province that we argued for 30 years ago and never got. I left the CofE 12 years ago (prior to the bishopette debacle). I have no doubt If I had remained an Anglican I would have atheist by now.
Who would tithe to the C of E, they have completely lost the plot, l moved to an evangelical church long ago.The Archbishop of Canterbury only ever talks politics.
That’ll be ‘politics’ with a capital ‘B’ if you excuse the French…
I started coming to church November 1984. A member of the church text me to ask me if I am coming this Sunday. I haven't answered. If the church was as it is 39 years ago, I wouldn't have bothered going in the first place.
#3
Don't give up on going to church. If your differences with the CofE are large enough that you can't stomach it (and aren't prepared to fight to change it) then move to a church of some other denomination. God never intended for Christians to live out our faith on our own apart from a local church community. Trying to do so means you're disagreeing with most of what scripture teaches about how we are to live out our faith, and that you are breaking with 2000 years of unanimous church tradition.
@@stephengray1344 You're right. Sadly, I do think that the CofE has already sold its soul. The African church I went to last weekend was absolutely packed. It was a bit scary because there were too many people for the room size-maybe 400 standing room only-and this was already the second service of the day. By comparison, on Sunday, at our only service of the week, I counted only 19 people (not the worst; one Christmas Eve I attended had only 4 people). I should decide to quit the CofE and put some effort into finding an alternative. Having never been a member of any other denomination, I don't know where to start. Got any ideas? Anyone?
@@johnblake8555 The best place to start would be talking to any friends, work colleagues, or nearby family members who are Christians (especially if they are not Anglicans). They will be better placed to give you advice than people on the internet because they know you and know at least something about the churches in your area. We can only give you general advice.
The first thing to consider is whether you have any strong opinions on the secondary issues that divide denominations and congregations. If you really care about infant baptism, church structure, or the charismatic gifts (to name three common issues that people looking for a church care about) then you will want to start by looking at churches from denominations or movements that are relatively close to your views on those issues.
The second thing to consider is that the best church to join may not be the one you agree with the most. The most important thing is that you join a church that will enable you to grow spiritually and give you a way to serve, even if you disagree with its stance on secondary issues. And that is going to depend on the local leadership and membership more than it depends on the denomination.
If I was looking for a new church then I would start by drawing up a shortlist of churches in the area which match what I've described above and go round visiting them. I would make a point of speaking to the leaders of the church when visiting and discussing your situation. If they aren't approachable then that's a huge red flag. The conversation will probably be more useful if you've spent some time thinking through what things you think are most important about your local church. Though I appreciate that you might not realise what those are until you come across churches that do those things differently.
I went through the process of moving from an Anglican church to one of the "New Church" groups when I was at university. But finding a church as a student is a different kind of process, since you're part of a group of Christians who are all doing the same thing at the same time, and tend to be looking for the same kinds of things.
How many know the 39 articles? The COE fell into decline mid 80s.
Do you think God knows the 39 Articles? Hope so.
38 articles and Prayer Book rarely mentioned now. Trouble is children are so poorly educated now that they don't know how to read good English - I have seen some ot the books schools give them to read.
In view of the suggested apology to Africa for inflicting Christianity and in the light of the great commission at the end of Matthew's gospel would it not be true to say that those making this suggestion have a statement of faith that reads Jesus is *not* Lord? He doesn't actually have all authority in heaven and earth to make disciples in all nations, they can override it. They can give God the benefit of their wisdom and instruct him. The ultimate contradiction: No Lord!!
_Claiming to be wise they became fools._
Understanding the bible is not like a fifth grade book report where one strings together Biblical concepts to create an argument.
Spoken like a true devil!
Our parish church is to have a 5 week LLF course! Some of us are praying our young rector would say ‘No’ to the LLF prayers and that consequently the course will be cancelled.
The ‘right’ vicar will preach the gospel. This is likely to be uncomfortable. I wonder if we have forgotten that we are in the world but not of it.
Where in the bible does it say be in the world but not of it. It's not possible. As a believer you are instrinsically separate. We're always going to be immersed in a fallen world with fallen human beings.
Yes
I’m glad to see you rev Dan. It’s been a demoralising week courtesy of abc
It’s more important to support the current thing, than stick to the gospel!
8:46 You have mistranslated the latin quote, The historian Bede (d. 735) reports that upon seeing some Anglo-Saxon boys being maltreated in a Roman slave market, Pope Gregory the Great (pope from 590-604) exclaimed: “Non Angli, sed angeli”-“Not Anglos, but angels”-and promptly sent St. Augustine of Canterbury and forty other missionaries to evangelize Britain.
Our vicar has 10 churches, one Care Home and one school.
Simple answer, Yes they are.
When heretics are in power that kills faith and ends the 'church'. It's called apostasy and comes under the judgement of God.
This is the truth 😢
Maybe if church were a celebration like it's supposed to be People would be going to church but for the right reasons. For having "good news" it's all pretty morose.
Been declining since the 1990s or even further back. Denominations of churches should have never happened. Synod should be called sinod in reality. When I was younger I used to make up stories in Bible (while not trying to change primary bits) as in response to anyone trying to tweak doctrine to suit culture. Suppose I can use that gift to expose anyone. I wouldn’t want anyone to praise my excessive appetite, otherwise it just means approving gluttony indirectly. Heaven is a privelege not a right. Voddie Bauchman exposes “social justice” agenda luckily, respect to him
I’ve now left the CoE completely, although the parish church I’ve attend the vicar didn’t allow to open up for same sex marriage blessing etc , however the general behavior of the congregation is very worldly - there is a lot of hypocrisy and dishonesty going on, even one case of sexual immortality, the vicar is aware of all these, but has not confronted these behavior directly - very disappointing but kind of within expectation given what the CoE is.
I left last year and became a Catholic. Yes.. there are issues in this Church but the structure of the Church makes it very difficult for the Pope to actually change anything meaningful. Change happens at a glacial rate, as the radical members of the Vatican are discovering.
I suspect every denomination in the world has areas of hypocrisy, dishonesty and even sexual immorality, and every church its difficulties. We may be filled with the Spirit, prayerful and all the rest, but very few Christians are perfect. That’s perhaps why forgiveness becomes the most important (and difficult) requirement.
@@catherinellewelyn-evans3693 I don’t think you are getting my point, although the general behavior of the congregation tend to be worldly, when sinful behavior occurs, it’s then the church leader(s)‘a responsibility to correct, rebuke such behaviors when made aware - rather than allowing this type of behavior exist, it is the vicar’s responsibility to make sure the body of Christ is healthy rather it’s being neglected. My current pastor once preached and I believe it’s true - “Holiness is the key to maintaining true Christian unity and the heath of the church”.
@@catherinellewelyn-evans3693 Also I often find forgiveness is not the difficult part, the difficult part is repentance - when there is no correction/refutation to sinful behaviors by the vicar in church, no wonder why some people don’t see the need of being repented for their wrong doing.
@@victoriazhao9660 So sorry, Victoria - I should have picked up the fact that it was the failure of your pastor which was really troubling you, and I completely understand that. Just sad that it has tarred the whole Church of England for you. There is an awful lot of good still in it. Kindest regards
It started with female priests and has gone downhill since, the Archbishop is a Woke disaster.
I think it started earlier than women's ordination as the willingness to do that which goes against what the apostle Paul taught (and would still teach if he were archbishop of Canterbury) showed an existing rejection of biblical authority. When divorce was reformed in the 1960's the church had departed from scripture by accepting irretrievable breakdown as a justifiable cause allowing divorce and Jesus' rule that remarrying after divorce is adultery. An earlier version of love is love perhaps.
Bless you! I am one of those wretched female priests who has wrecked the Church of England. I have male and female colleagues capable of wrecking their churches for all sorts of reasons; I have male and female colleagues who absolutely, and joyfully, keep the Spirit alive in every church they go to; and, in a church where financial resources are getting more and more stretched, we women, many of us working entirely unpaid to spread the Gospel, have kept it alive.
People often forget the first Anglican Female Priest Florence Li Tim-Oi was ordained 1944. At that time the Bishop of Victoria, Ronald Hall who ordained her, reported to the Archbishop of Canterbury. So the ordination of women was probably being considered well before then. I would say well over 100 years ago. Remember things like this lurk in the background for many years before they come forward. If not stopped early they have enough momentum they are almost impossible to stop.
@@kenbeach5021 Nothing's stopping you from being a paulinist. Why do others need to believe in the same way? At least the RCC has different ways of worshipping. There's quite a variety.
No, it was destroyed when it stopped following the true Traditional Catholic Apostolic Faith.
That bears little resemblance to first century Christianity.
When would you say that was?
@@johnhudghton3535 Sadly which church does nowadays? Acts 2v42-47 is long lost. Chris x
@@chrisstewartbenson119 some are further than others though. The Reformation happened for good purpose.
The Catholic Church is as far away from God as you can get.
Ah I'm quite disappointed, for a moment there I thought there was an actual Reverend Doctor Jekyll in the CoE
That would have shaken things up a bit! I might have attended!
Damn shame it was just an analogy.
I enjoy listening Dan although I do find it a bit rambling and repetitive. I value many good biblical CofE preachers and teachers although I have never belonged to one. I was an evangelical Methodist for 40 years and in a Grace Baptist church for the last 17. Having been in the Methodist church and seen where that has gone in the past thirty years I cannot see how biblical Christians can 'walk together' with those who deny the truth of Scripture. This has been shown to be impossible in the Methodist church as those who hold to biblical views are gradually being silenced and sweezed out. (You will vote and vote again until we get the result we want!)
On another tack I do feel for those of you who have wonderful old church buildings which are a drain on resources and in many cases not fit for purpose. It's a shame when Christians have to rely on fundraising or even lottery funds rather than everthing being funded by direct giving by the members.
I wonder whether the division between ‘Biblical’ Christians and others is that BOTH sets read the Bible, but the evangelicals take every word as the ‘finished’ understanding, and the more liberal, who also read the Bible, try to listen to the ‘music behind the score’ as someone once put it. The difficulty is that, for both camps, there are going to be myriad interpretations of the word in front of them. Have you ever been in a secular reading group? You all read the same book, but all come up with different opinions. Blessings.
Yes I agree that there are different interpretations and opinions and I can live with them if they are not about core essentials of the faith. The problem is that the Christian Faith is not about opinions but about truth. We may have different opinions about how long creation took but ultimately only one of them will be TRUE. We may have different opinions over whether Adam and Eve were historical figures but in the end only one will be TRUE. We may have different interpretations over the second coming, the Rapture and tribulation but only one of them can be TRUE. We may have different opinions about the judgement and the final destination of non-christians, (universalism - all will go to heaven, second chance after death, Annihilationism or the separation believers and non-believers for eternal life or eternal punishment. Only one view can be TRUE.
This is especially true of views over the sinfulness of all, the need for a rescuer, Jesus being fully human and fully divine and therefore qualified to be that rescuer, the substitution on the Cross of Christ for us, to perform that rescue and the physical nature and necessity of Christ's resurrection. These TRUTHS are not open to opinions or interpretations which would make a nonsense of the plain meaning of Scripture and of the Christian Faith itself.
Every blessing. David.
Yes!!!
African Anglican Bishops seem to be the most Christian leaders now. We saw them at GAFCON..was it ? not so long ago. Other denominations were impressed.
"A flat structure Dan?" 😂😂😂. In theory, perhaps Dan, but in practice completely and utterly untrue and has been for centuries. Which world are you living in? From formalities like ecclesiastical processions where reverse psychology and false humility is present to housing, pay, pensions, decision making, the very levers of power and the executive resources available to pull them, ( often abusively ) there is NO flat structure in the C of E. Indeed there is a most ugly, horrible, blatant, hierarchy and a reason for why we are in the mess we are now. You are talking twaddle here mate. Former parish priest, ordained 40 years.
Indeed, the Church of England is a Catholic Church with ecclesiastical structure. Dan's thumbnail of the Rev Walker on Duddingston Loch is odd because the Rev Walker was a Minister of The Kirk, a Church which does have a flat structure ... sort of...
@dominionphilosophy3698 he comes across as an ingenue to me. 😇
Lobby groups! OneBodyOneFaith and the Ozanne Foundation to name but two.
I’m 85. I grew up in the US Episcopalian church and was a communicant until several years ago. The Anglican Church has become hopelessly WOKE, apologizing for being, and espousing much of the rubbish preached by John Spong, the former bishop of Newark NJ. When I was younger some used to joke that a person could believe what they wanted to believe and be an Episcopalian. Sadly, that is now truly the case.
Are you saying you'd believe otherwise if it were allowed?
I'm certain that Martin Lloyd-Jones is sitting with John Stott in heaven, pointing down at the Anglican church and saying "See? I told you so!"
There may have been hope back then of thoroughly 'Christianising' the C of E.
The dilemma today for evangelicals in the C of E is if this is no longer the case is there any point in staying in. If they don't get into a lifeboat are they going to go down with the ship?
Yes by changing Gods word..sin stays sin..Mans truth and Gods truth...
No - not angles but angels!! T'uther way round! A word of faith?
Yes the arch bishop of Canterbury has brought darkness to the church of England
g the way the C-of-E always was. There's that old folksong The Vicar of Bray
When the Church locked the doors in 3 or 4 years ago and left Christ to die alone on the Cross they locked Christ out and the Devil in. It might say the words of Christ its actions are all performs on behalf of the Devil. I stopped attending and now attend Free CofE. Look no further than Manchester Diocese to see the Devil at work. This is what your Parish Share is being used for.
Yes they are.
From an Anglican perspective what is the value of being Anglican instead of Lutheran, Wesleyan or Evangelical?
Priests and members of the church and the hierarchy seem to be in a fog. If local priests are uneasy about the direction being taken they need to become active at synods and meetings. My experience is that many priests are wishy washy and lack the needed zeal and passion to stand up and be counted. I also think that God has allowed this fog in a response to the drift away from his holy word as revealed in the scriptures. Throw out the "money changers" and call the "Sanhedrin" to account. This requires a toughness that seems to be missing in the Priesthood.
What’s the problem with being wish washy?! I am a female Anglican priest, and I find ‘wishy washy’ opens up some people as much as hellfire and damnation opens up others! Sorry, but we Wishy Washy people ALSO play our part in leading people towards the kingdom, just in a different way. The Spirit still moves in us, and we really do share in the joy of the Lord. God needs us all.
Hi Catherine, may God bless you and the work you do. I live in Australia and the Anglican Church here is slowly fading away. One of our local parishes has a beautiful Gothic Church built in early days of the colony but sadly the roof has become unsafe and the now small congregation can no longer afford to repair it so they have services elsewhere. The latest Priest there is also a woman. She believes in Gay marriage and quickly lost part of the congregation when she introduced this to her sermons. I belong to an Anglican network that is actually growing; however it is strictly Bible based. I believe that God will not bless or grow a church that ignores his word. Once again, may God bless you. Regards Mark.
@@markmayger166 Dear Mark, thank you for such a thoughtful and careful reply. As you say, the decline and decay of these churches is very sad. I love our churches. I’m afraid, though, that you would thoroughly disapprove of me because I cannot condemn gay relationships. I feel so lucky that I was born heterosexual, that my sexual feelings were neither judged nor stifled. I cannot imagine how it must feel to have been born gay and to know that you are either judged as evil, or that there is no way forward for you to have a committed relationship. Can you imagine being told that you were to be celibate for all of your life? We are so lucky, as heterosexuals, and I cannot inflict this pain on anyone else. I also, very hesitantly, suggest that if it was so very important, might not Jesus himself, the Word of God, have said something about it?
Hi again Catherine, you must do as your conscience tells you. However you have a deep and eternal responsibility to the souls of your flock. Be sure not to lead them into eternal separation from God. Two relevant quotes may be, Matthew 5:17-20 and Matthew 7:21-23. Jesus died the most appalling, painful an humiliating death to save us from eternal misery and give us Heaven. Tread carefully with your special responsibility. I personally find the possibility of Hell, absolutely terrifying. Your brother in Christ, Mark
DOOH! Yes.......
Thumbnail.. v drole except, of course, Dan, the Rev Walker was a Minister of The Kirk, not the Church of England or the Scottish Piscies.
Mind you.. the wokeness in the Church of Scotland these days is enough yo melt the ice on Duddingston Loch!
Jesus only hated religious hypocrites, but the book of revelation shows GOD is against the direction some in the church want to go. If they would just stick to the word and manage the church and leave the world to GOD’s appointees, our country would become like heaven on earth!
Yes, he hated hypocrisy, but, as I understand it, he also hated self righteousness in those who claimed to have all the right answers.
@@catherinellewelyn-evans3693Well, there is a little Pharisee in each one of us that we need guard against. An occupational hazard for those who take the bible seriously.
I don't think pointing out the gross religious error that has currently gripped a sizable section of the C of E hierarchy and its membership should automatically count as self-righteousness. I can feel for many in their anguish that they are starting to participate in other men's sins with no easy way out of it.
@@kenbeach5021 I’m sorry if I haven’t taken into account the ‘anguish’ of those whose ideas are being so sorely challenged. It is a good point. I suppose, though, I find myself wondering who suffers the greater ‘anguish’ here. Those whose certainties are challenged, or those who must be labelled as sinful, and condemned to celibacy - or to furtive relationships - by others’ certainties?
@@catherinellewelyn-evans3693 I feel for the anguish of the Rev Dans of this world because they are to some extent trapped in an institutional church led by an increasingly apostate hierarchy. Those who would teach us to hate what God loves and to love what God hates when it comes to righteousness and wickedness.
As for the alphabet people you are alluding to (if you spell it out comments have a habit of not appearing) God has spoken on this and spoken clearly - including the possibility of forgiveness.
Does the crass difference not strike you between those in Africa who keep the faith in the face of losing their lives and western church leaders who compromise with a society that doesn't know what a woman is and is too rich, privileged and spoilt to cope with being told they need to exercise self control over their sex drive if they wish to inherit the kingdom of God? Who _pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness_ ?
@@kenbeach5021 Pointing out differences would be one thing, but the differences you seem to see are based on the judgments of other's behaviors. "I can't believe what you believe because you continue to sin". That's the "difference" I see.
I have joined the Free Church of England but can only join them on line.
got a link?
Rev Brett Murphy .
Also St. Andrew's, Bentley
Dan, your missing the bigger question. Why are people not coming to church now and also for the last 20 years.
I was talking to a friend and said if I stood at a convention of all the religions and a christian came forward I would say, why should I become a christian rather than any other faith.
Imagine a Roman soldier going past all the shrines along the road and a christian says do not put faith in false Gods. Become a christian. And the soldier who has seen death, depravity etc. Says why. Explain why one should be christian. He will need proof.
Are you yourself looking for proof for the truth of Christianity?
A little anecdote for you. A lady came to my church with her young son. Really enjoyed the fellowship. Then she found out that the church holds a biblical view on homosexual acts and marriage being between a man and a woman. She wasn't gay herself but said she couldn't attend a church that held those views. She was upset. She went to a church of england church for a few months. Did not find the same fellowship and love in that place. She reached out to one of the other ladies in my church she had made friends with. They talked and she said she missed our church. She has now come back. We have received her back with open arms. In the time she was gone we prayed for her and hoped she would return, God has answered our prayers.
Churches die when they comprise on Gods word. Its Christ who builds his church not man.
lovely story
Being a Christian isn't a choice, our faith is a gift from God the Father, before the intervention of God, we were dead in our sins, dead people can't chose anything, we were slaves to sin, but we are now bought by the blood of Christ and He is our new master, ephesians 2:8-9
@@benry007Absolutely
I fear that it the CoE is in its death throes.
I do not believe in what Welby and others are leading us towards. I will stay to vote but will nolonger give funds… I will finance things needed locally. I don’t want to give money which is swiped for ‘parish share’ and goes to support workers. I would rather buy toys for Tinies to Tots!!!!
If god was real there would be no need for a church.
Bore off Dave
That doesn't make any sense. Why would God being real mean that the people who choose to follow him wouldn't need to form communities of believers in order to do so effectively?
Just an ignorant troll. Nothing to see here folks.
Yes welby destroyed it
It is the fate of Anglicanism, it was based on Amor and Eros 500 years ago.