When I explored the market for a new plane I also watched a lot of videos here on UA-cam to get a good idea of what I was wanting. I didn’t go into the purchase knowing absolutely nothing about the product. I purchased a WoodRiver 5-1/2 and immediately tore it all down for proper cleaning, tuning, sharpening and reassembly. My experience with this plane has been similar to yours out of the gate but with a few minutes work all of those little things are gone and I am left with an exceptionally good plane. Tearing the plane down completely gave me a better understanding about the tool and how it works. Learning online from other’s knowledge gave me the confidence to go at it and I really enjoy using this plane. I would recommend the V3 planes to others if they follow the same procedures. I have had zero issues with the casting, squareness, flatness or any point if operation.
Same! I'd never used a plane (or chisels) but found it very intriguing so I watched several videos on tuning, sharpening, and using planes and chisels. Bought everything I needed, including the exact plane used in this video. Completely broke it down, tuned it, sharpened it, etc. (by following Rob Cosman's instructional video to a T) and so far so good. I actually enjoyed the whole process for the same reasons you state.
Being a Canadian, Wood River planes end up costing me the same as a Veritas. I have taken the vintage/antique route and spent a lot of time researching online and sweat a lot of hours of restoring Bailey planes. I think this was the best route as a beginner. It's saved me money by buying beaters and tuning them up and it's given me a very solid knowledge on how to make a plane work well. Great video. Love your content!
This is why I bought a $30 Stanley Bedrock #5 at an antique store, watched some restoration videos. Restored it, sharpened it and use it. For me as a novice woodworker, $100 is still a huge price to pay.
I have done the same. It definitely takes time to get the old Stanleys clean and sharp, but much of that, for me anyway, was the learning process of getting *any* plane clean and sharp. Yesterday, I did the dumbest thing ever. I bought a Stanley #45 combo plane. I may even use it someday.
I bought a #4 and a #5 stanley bailey pre-WWII for $70. I then put some Reed adjuster knobs on them, flattened the soles, made some new totes and front knobs and sharpened the blades and they work great with a little adjustment
I have watched several videos on plane restoration and every one that talks about new planes warping is because they don’t let the castings rest (allegedly) before they are machined so they still have internal stress.
@liquidrockaquatics3900 Yes, cast iron will worp over time. My sargent # 424 has a low spot that has showed back up, but the real problem is me observing over .005" hole over 24"
I have been woodworking for over 50 years, spent an inordinate amount of time researching tools before purchasing and have concluded that you just have to acquire something and use it yourself. The key word is USE it. I have invested heavily into LN tools with no regrets. EVERY tool I have ever purchased(hand and power) has had some degree of fettling to get maximum results except the Blue Spruce line of wood chisels which are sharp out of the box. People, the gateway skill is to learn how to sharpen.
The crazy thing to me is. Modern woodworkers do all this talking about plane quality an how well the blade holds up. The type of steel used. An then end up with a 2 thousand dollar certain green sander an dust collection system, doing the final finish work on there project.
Or you’re like me and you buy the $300 Bosch clone of the green sander and you hook it up to a $100 Ridgid shop vac outfitted with a dust separator and HEPA filter.
I pretty much snipe collector hand planes off of eBay these days for sport. They rarely get used, but they look killer on the wall. The trick is to get “caught” observing them by neighbors while holding an eccentric looking coffee cup.
@@3kainosI’m almost positive Bosch came before the rotex, either way, it’s a badass sander and if mine ever goes down, I’m getting a new one. I love the few festool things I have and all my friends that I’ve used, but that Bosch is just amazing
I live in Parkersburg, WV...the town where WoodCraft is based...and the NUMBER 1 store in here. SO, they have a section where they sell their returned items that are still good. I got a couple of their planes (No 5 and Block) for about 75% off so I have some. HOWEVER, I have ONE Lie Nielsen block plane my father gave me (because I can't afford them) and, for reasons I didn't understand until THIS VIDEO, it's so much easier to dial in than the WR ones. Thanks again for educating me more than anyone else has.
Paul sellers has some excellent videos on how to restore an old plane and how to setup a brand new one. He does the same things re: softening the edges and mouth opening. If you are a beginner it is worth learning these skills so when you run across something at a garage sale you might be able to pick up a diamond in the rough and save a lot of money.
Well well Erik, fair video, I guess. I have been woodworking for over 50 years, own over 60 hand planes from most makers. I have replaced most of my Stanley blades with either Hock or IBC because older thin blades did not perform. Wood Rivers new planes are as good as any today, the blades hold up good in all types of wood. All planes, no matter what maker, need some tuning out of the box. Glad for your videos bud. Semper Fi Mr. X Prius man.
Good points, however I have several old Stanleys. Some I have upgraded to new irons, Hock mostly, and some I haven't. I don't see much different in the actual quality of the cut, I do see a bid difference in the time I can cut with the newer blade. I just don't believe the iron is significantly better if you sharpening properly, however I will agree that the newer blades stay sharper longer.
As a beginner I watch a lot of videos. I get most of my info from you and Rob Cosman. (Pretty close to 50/50 and you and he tend to have very different opinions, instruction, sharpening methods, etc.). He swears by his Wood River 5.5. He also has a video on a complete setup. I bought one based on it being in every video. Today I do the setup and initial try out. I think Rob’s affiliation with Woodcraft may be causing a bias. Some of us getting started have to draw a line somewhere because, well, the plane is only one of the many tools you need to get started.
I agree with you when it comes to hand tools I always listen to Rob Cosman. He hasn’t steered me wrong yet. I bought the wood river 5 1/2 also and haven’t been happier. I first bought an old Stanley Bailey no4 from a garage sale and it’s not good for much since I bought the wood river 5 1/2.
Question are hinted at in another comment below. Are the sides 90 degrees to the base? Does the sloppy paint / japanning push the side up and out of square when used on a shooting board? You note problems with fit and finish - was the sole flat (say to 0.0015)?
In Canada, Wood River is distributed through Rob Cosman. A Wood River #4 Smoother runs $369 CDN. A Veritas #4 comes in at $309 CDN with an O1 or A2 blade, $329 CDN for the PM11 version. So at $40 to $60 less for a plane with known quality and known blade steel, I'd have to go with the Veritas.
I actually sold my woodriver and got a Veritas last year. I live about an hour from Robs home/shop and got a #5 before covid. As you mention the Veritas is much cheaper and of significantly superior quality and it ships for free too vs paying for shipping when purchased from Rob
In fairness the Woodriver planes Rob sells have been tuned up in their shop. They flatten the soles, chamfer the edges, flatten sharpen and micro-bevel the blade and about a half dozen other tune up steps and that is what you are paying extra for.
@@anthonymiller8979 You are absolutely correct. I have a wood river #5 and a bunch of other lien nielson planes. I had to tune up the wood river, but after that was fully done (it took a while as I didn't start with the know how) it performed about as well as my lie nielson planes. In fact now that I do know how to tune them up, I honestly cannot find much of a difference other than some of the fit and finish and a slightly more premium feeling adjustment knob. Its not necessarily any more or less accurate. The difference between my high end planes and my wood river is not in the steel or design. The biggest difference I have noticed was the tuning out of the box. Essentially Rob is doing the tuning that I had to do myself and then it will perform as well. The Wood river planes were made using good materials and decent machining in a place with a very low cost of labor and almost no time spent on tuning up the plane. In from what I have seen they intentionally leave some surfaces like the back of the mouth so that someone else can tune them up. My experience in manufacturing suggests to me that this is an attempt to prevent shipping damage causing serious issues. If there is a small nick on the sharp edge, it will be evened out anyways when the tradesmen chamfers the edges themselves. This obviously nocks the price down significantly. And I honestly based on my experience cannot recommend someone starting out with a wood river plane because of this. I would say the Rob cossman ones are priced appropriately given the work put into them, but at the same time why not just buy a veratas or lie nielson one? The fit and finish are better and they are also tuned out of the box just like the rob cossman ones. They will perform exactly the same so why not buy the cheaper one being the high end veratas one? my 2 cents.
That, a dozen eggs sunny side up and a stack of flap jacks about half a foot high and I'm ready for another cup of coffee as I head to the shop to start the day making shavings. :)
In my woodworking journeys, I have had a few of the Woodriver planes and generally agree with your review. When I was searching for an affordable #4, I tried the Rockler Benchdog series and they were even worse (so I took it back). I have also tried Stanley Sweetheart series and had to do many of the adjustments you mentioned. I need to choose where my dollars are best spent and so I look at safety, performance and try and reach a reasonable compromise to what I can afford. I enjoy your approach on how you can overcome some (but not all) inconsistencies in the product to reach some satisfactory tuning. We all have much to learn and you do a great job helping me on that journey. Keep up with your excellent guidance.
Thanx for an honest video and your honest opinion. The prep work required reminded me of the saying "All tools come as kits that need assembly, some more than others." The shavings seem to be split indicating a nick in the blade. Rob Cosman did some great videos on sharpening about 3 years ago on how to avoid these nicks.
Rob Cosman explains that even small serrations (barely visible scratches that extend to the micro bevel) cause splits in the shavings. In his setup video he filed the edges of the sole as well as the throat and flushed up the lever cal and chip breaker. I doubt any tool you get anywhere is 100% ready to go out of the box. I have a Veritas apron plane and the blade was in no different condition than the Wood River. Still had to flatten and polish the back (not the whole back just the micro bevel area). I follow his sharpening method that goes up to a 16000 grit Shapton. I would probably say the Wood River is at the low end of high end planes. Which I think is what Erik is saying too.
Stanley is the standard and we were spoiled forever. We have seen and experienced what a good plane should be. Anything that is lesser is easy to detect.
I have a Veritas jack and a Wood river 5 1/2 and find myself reaching for the Wood river twice as often. As for tuning it up I watched UA-cam and figured it out shortly. The experience of learning how is worth the effort. Education is worth the investment.
Nice, informative video. I think an infrequent flattening of the base is acceptable routine maintenance. Also, somewhere I got told the blade is T10 steel. This is a steel that is very good, good edge holding, sharpens to decent edge, a bit brittle though. But then it comes down to the hardening process. I have one blade that I have to deburr at each level to ensure only the finest of burr is removed. A heavy burr can infrequently snap away and cause a chipped edge. Other than that the other blades don't give me a problem and they all hold an edge long enough and fine enough for me. These features align with what I expect the characteristics of Chinese T10 would be.
I enjoy your videos and take on life. A bit of humour sets you apart from some other channels and is much appreciated. Wood river planes are actually made by Quangsheng in China. As best as I understand it, they will put a name on the lever cap for a price. I have a No. 7 from Quangsheng and regret buying it, even though I bought it in a sale. The plane took hours to be ready for use: there were sharp edges everywhere, the lateral adjustment didn't work as a result of those sharp edges and I had to get a new lever cap as the original was badly miscast and not machined properly. The pitch on the depth adjuster is quite coarse so it is difficult to set. Making the tote and knob comfortable was also time consuming. I find more pleasure and success in using a 60 odd year old Record number 8 and a £100 No 5 that I bought from Axminster (in the UK) that are made in India. Wood river and Quangsheng are sold as if they are premium planes at a reasonable price, but I am not convinced they are worth the money. In the video, you raise a question about the long term stability of the casting. My experience is that the sole has very slightly twisted over the 6 months I have had it. About 0.1mm to 0.2mm although it still seems to be flat along the length in the middle of the sole. Everyone will have different opinions but I think there are better options. If I have to spend hours fettling the thing, it makes more sense to me (an occasional user) to buy something cheaper or go with a Stanley from ebay.
As always another great video. I for one have some very cheap plans. And I think my take away is what to look for and setup. So thank you. But now the cup is empty so it is time to make a thing. Tell next week my friend. Thanks again.
For me, I like Stanley type 12-14 planes, restored and flattened, with upgraded blades and breakers. I feel like I'm grabbing a piece of history every time I use them. Probably not going to save any money over a WR though. Thanks for the solid handshake in Austin a couple weeks ago👍
Thank you, Erik. Ive been curious for some time why you have seemed to so hate Woodriver planes. I currently have a set of Woodriver planes (4 thru 7; including the 4 1/2 and 5 1/2) and the block plane, and absolutely love them. But that’s just me, and the glory of humanity is that we are all different. You rock!
Picked up a 5-1/2 two years ago and it was junk. So much so that it left a lasting impression on me. I haven’t stepped into a wood craft store since. Maybe I’ll change my mind someday but not today for sure. I ordered a Lie-Nielsen 5-1/2. And I love it
Nice to see you back this week! lol and it looks like you hit up the Downingtown Woodcraft, one of 2 I usually go to depending on where my travels take me when I have a need. ( I'm just about middle between the Downingtown and Wilmington stores) Good video as I have been contemplating getting a newer plane instead of trying to get some older ones I have, restored to a functioning condition. Simply stated, I may just opt for the Veritas or the Lee Nielsen and spend the extra for the simple fact that as you stated, I don't know what I don't know, as a new user, to tune a lesser quality plane to function properly. As always, your videos are informative and very helpful. Thank you sir.
I love my lie-neilsen #4 plane which is now over 10 years old. I am a hobbyist woodworker and use a planer/jointer if I need to work large surfaces, and then follow up with a cabinet scraper.
Did want to mention that I kept the wood river plane because I spent about a full day getting it up to a reasonable level. It does take a ok shaving but doesn’t compare to either my Lie-Nielsen or any of my Veritas planes. Was it worth the price no not at all.
I was given advice from a good woodworker at the point I first started playing with wood; get something you know works, so all the screw-up is definitely just you. I have a Veritas low angle jack and a Lie Nielsen block. They do work. They are a joy to use and I know the outcome is determined by my variability not the tools.
Thank you so much for your video! It ties nicely with a recent project of my own. I bought an Amazon basics #5 plane… 😖 Needless to say, for the significant saving in cost, the blade was not ground square. I spent last week educating myself on plane restoration, purchased a lapping plate and rolls of sandpaper to properly grind the blade. It now makes shavings 1/1000 of an inch! Thank you for sharing your passion for woodworking! 😊
Sidenote, I had two planes my uncle gave me that needed their blades properly squared as well. One was so bad I had to use several pieces of 180 grit paper on the lapping plate just to get the edge square 😬👍 Then I worked my way up to the 400/1000 grit wetstones. I also like to use a few drops of Trend Lapping Fluid to help lift the metal dust off the wetstone.
I bought the Wood River 4 1/2, and it cost approximately $200. I then watched a video by Rob on how to make it function as well as the others. There may be a slight difference in the feel of the two planes, but I'm still happy with my 4 1/2. Keep up the great videos.
I'm a big fan of Lie-Nielsen tools. They're planes are expensive, but work flawlessly. I recently bought a Woodriver 4 1/2 and a 5 1/2 plane to use in a secondary shop. I really like the look and feel of the Bubinga totes and knobs. Like Eric, I had to clean up the edges and mouths of the planes to eliminate burs. The back of each plane iron took a lot of work to get them flat. The chipbreakers also benefited from polishing the bevel. The A2 irons that come in Lie-Nielsen planes are slightly thicker and hold an edge longer than the Woodriver irons. However, the Woodriver irons are on par with after market plane irons. All in all the Woodriver planes are well worth what I paid for them and perform nicely. Are the Lie-Nielsen planes better, absolutely. Eric's review was as accurate and honest as it gets.
I bought one, got it home opened it , no sealed plastic bag, I’m guessing it was bought and returned by someone else. lol I still have it in the box I haven’t used it yet, been too long to return it.
Just got a new woodriver 51/2 a few days ago and as far as i can see it planes wood. Being a big knife person blade steel really doesn't matter as long as its some sort of high carbon. The sharpness isnt going to last forever
Thats a completely fair perspective, but a lot of folks (like me) want to spend a few minutes sharpening and would rather work for as long as we can before needing to sharpen again. Sharpening is a critical part of the overall process but eventually it becomes a chore.
Well, a couple of points. First, I am wondering if your first Woodriver planes were pre Rob Cossman. I know he had them make some changes in it when he was hired as a consultant or what ever he did with them. I am surprised that right out of the box, after wiping the oil off, you did not put straight edges on it, both for length and width. I do have a #5, and like you, I would not give it a 10, but then I never give anything a 10.... I do not care for the handle/tote in the back. The curve on the bottom hits a pressure point on the heel of that hand, so I have to adjust my grip. Not sure about the front knob. I am fairly new to hand planes, maybe 2 years. I do consider it part of the learning curve on them to be able to trouble shoot them before you ever start to use them. My dad gave me his Lie Nielson planes which he bought and never used due to mom's dementia which pretty much kept him out of his shop, though he never got into woodworking like I have. I did go through them, and take them apart and sharpen all of them. This was along with some used ones that I picked up at the local flea market. It does work, and I really can't tell if the plane blade is any better than any of the other planes I have. One needed skill for hand planes is to be able to take them apart and fix them so they work the way you want them to do.
My experience with the same WR #5 (purchased in late 2023 on a $40 discount sale) is similar. I like the fact that it's got the full frog plate of the Stanley Bedrock design, unlike most of its mid-price competitors; that design should make it much more robust. Importantly, the sole and sides were flat out of the box. Like you, however, I found the plane was creating tiny ridges (striations) in the wood when planing, and so I spent time filing the sole edges and mouth. I also realized I needed to round off the corners of the blade on this (and my other planes that I inherited) to avoid the striation marks. Most UA-cam teachers do not mention this need, I've found, but I'm glad I did it. Took quite a while to get all these cleaned up. Once I did, and after a few rounds of sharpening the blade so that it had proper sharpness and camber, I finally began to get the papery shavings I'd been hoping for. It's now planing very nicely. As you said, the front handle isn't perfect; shorter would be better. Ergonomically, overall the plane is not bad but could be better. I haven't yet found a very comfortable hand position when using it with a shooting board, but it's okay for short sessions. I also found the depth adjuster a bit stiff, but it works fine. All in all, I feel like I got a good product for much less than the higher-end competition. I don't have experience with Lie-Nielsen or Veritas planes, sadly, so can't compare. I would not have paid their higher prices as a fairly new woodworker, so this seems a sweet spot for me. Thanks for the thorough review! And also thanks for promoting renewable energy. 👍💥
Quangsheng, Luban, and Wood River, from what I can find, are all made in the same factory, CIXI city Qiangsheng tool co., in China. Woodcraft has an exclusive distributor agreement in the USA so you'll never see the other brands ones available for sale in the USA. From what I understand they are all about the same in quality, unless a retailer is providing different specifications for their store brand planes. I've picked up a few of the Luban and Quangsheng planes and they are similar in quality as to how what you've shown in your review. If I run across an used one cheap enough I might buy it to try it out, but I really don't need anymore planes at this point.
Quangsheng / woodriver seem to be very similar (if not identical ) , I bought a 4 1/2 when I just started out with the notion to upgrade to a veritas model when i could afford it , I had similar results you had out the box . After attending school to learn how to "tune up" the plane and actually learn what sharp is! Mine took about 1/2 day of fettling to get it up to furniture makers standard . lapping the sole on float glass , flattening the blade and getting to up to standard . Was that 1/2 day worth the cost difference of the veritas / lie nelson , I think so.
Had a Woodriver 5-1/2 that I bought during Rob Cosman's PHP class a few years ago. Worked great! Ended up trading it for an old Stanley 5-1/2 as I have a small collection of Baileys going. My Baileys are all users that are slowly being replaced by LN though. I've had some Veritas as well. Of all I've had, the LN are my favourite both aesthetically and as users.
Agreed....the time I've spent trying to learn how, and unsuccessfully getting an old stanley to function well, I should of just spent the money on a good plane !!!
I own a Bronze Lie Nielsen No. 4 and several of other LN planes and several Veritas planes including their Low Angle Jack. I have, however, been able to expand my plane stable cheaply and efficiently by buying Miller's Falls planes for anywhere from twenty-five to fifty dollars each. They're good planes and I haven't had to put nearly as much work into them as you did to the Wood River plane. Thank you for your work and your commercials are wonderfully entertaining.
I own a couple Wood Rivers and some Lie Nielsens. I also have a Bench Dog router plane. The Wood Rivers work well for me. I'm glad I bought a Wood River first because it helped me to determine I like half sizes ( 4 1/2, 5 1/2) more than regular sizes. That saved me some money up front. i would have had a Lie Nielsen I didn't like had I bought a No 4 from them. I now try to buy American planes and the Wood River falls out of favor only cause it is made in China, and I can afford not to buy Chinese planes. Overall though Its like you said, Lie Nielsens are ready to go out of the box. The blades need a little honing and you're ready to work. Wood River has some start up time to get them ready but they're not bad planes.
I can't justify spending anymore than $50 on a hand plane knowing that almost every antique shop or flea market in the Smokey Mountains is bound to have a pre WWII Stanley
I got a 5-1/2. The first casting was not ground flat and square. They shipped a replacement out immediately. Second was perfect. I've been using it for months now and it's an incredibly great tool. It's price makes it an even better value.
The blade is a Chinese knock off of A2. In my experience, the hardness and edge retention is somewhere between O1 & A2. It does take an edge quickly and well enough. But a Hock O1 can definitely get sharper, but also dulls faster. I've had a 5.5 for about 10 years now and it works fine.
A few years ago, I bought a Stanley No. 5 (a new one, Bailey edition, not the other "normal one" they sell) and a No. 6 (this was the normal edition if you want to refer to it like that). I don't use the #6 since it's mostly a fore plane even after setting it up. The bailey #5 needed a lot of previous work to make it "top notch", such as flattening the sole, changing the rear and tote, they came out of plastic and I had to make new ones out of wood, bought an English Stanley blade, cleaned the sides and some ergonomics, made sure that the frog sits well, etc...and still needs some tweking here and there but it performs well for most of the time. After two years or so, I bought a low angle Stanley Sweet Heart and it worked almost flawlessly after an initial sharpening to the blade, and a light cut, leaving a better surface (smoother) than the Bailey. If we do the math, with all the extra work made to the Bailey, it may have ended up costing almost the same as the SW (or even more if I put a hock blade). In conclusion, few tools will come ready out of the box, and most of the time we users will have to make some setting up before starting to work (in Canada even RC makes a prep service for those planes before shipping). Thanks for your review
I have the WoodRiver #4 v3 plane. Overall happy with it - I did get a Hock chip breaker later on. For my budget, I got it on sale and it does the job. I know that Veritas and Lie Nielson will blow it out of the water, but bang for the buck it works. I did some fine tuning with the blade and sole to make sure everything was flat. It was slathered in oil though, which took a while to wipe up.
Eric, I bought a Woodriver 5 1/2 and a block plane. I must admit, I didn’t even look at the outer sleeve on the box bit I take your point. The 5 1/2 works pretty well. I have knocked the edges off it but not much more. I can get a sharp edge on the blade but I find it slight “crumbly” and likely to cause tracks even when it hasn’t been nicked on anything. I think I will be swapping it for a Hock blade. I simply could not get on with the “knuckle” adjuster on the block blade or the lack of lateral adjustment so the has been sold on.
The Ohishi box told me to never soak the 3000/10000 stone. It said only hydrate while sharpening. Tom's website says so too. Should I soak my Ohishi stones? Do you actually get better results soaking the stone?
I must admit I have a bias for everything Lee Valley. It’s 10 minutes drive, my wife worked there for awhile and the tools are fantastic. I use birthday money to purchase tools or I have had the fortune of finding estate sales with the veritas tools for sale really cheap. I don’t think I’d buy anything else.
Since most of us are capable enough to find your fine channel on YT I have to assume that we are capable enough to find out how to make a hand plane work well. I have a much better opinion of WR hand planes than you, but I also have a much smaller tool budget than you so I'm going to stick with them as they have worked well for me. I did appreciate your grudging lack of bias as you were testing out the number 5. Enjoyed the video, as always.
I have old Stanley planes, a #4, #5, #6 and #7. I didn’t pay more than $60 for any one of them and with some light restoration they all work insanely well. I’ll just stick with my old Stanleys. 😎
I have a Woodriver 5-1/2 among, also some Lie Nielsens for other bench planes and Veritas for speciality planes. The Woodriver bench planes are 'ok.' I started with a 4 and 5 and sold them. I actually think the blades aren't bad. But I 100% had to flatten the back befor use. I actually like it more than a Hock blade but less than Veritas PMV-11. Close, but not quite, to the quality of LN's blades. If you do a lot hand tool work, I think you'll be upgrading at some point to LN or Veritas anyway. If I had to do it again, I'd start with LN or Veritas. They hold their value so you can always sell them and get most of your money back. Not so with Woodriver.
Great video as always Erik as a new woodworker I would like to have a couple of planes just don’t know witch to buy and get them working so this helps a lot thanks for sharing
Hey Eric. I have a few Lie-Nielsen’s (5 1/2 and 7) and Woodrivers (5 1/2, 7 and others). The tool steel that comes with the WR’s is definitely somewhat softer when sharpening so I have to put less effort/strokes/etc into cambering the blade compared to the LN. I imagine after you sharpened it you cambered the blade more than usual and that’s why you were not getting a full width shaving. I don’t think I can tell a huge/significant difference in how long either holds an edge during use but I do think I can use the LN an additional 10 minutes or so before it needs sharpening compared to the WR. I will also say that with minimal modifications, the WR’s perform every bit as well as the LN’s (I might do a comparison video on my channel). I also have Veritas planes but I generally hate using them for two reasons. 1. They are bevel up and I feel like I get better results with bevel down planes and 2. Norris adjusters really suck (for many reasons) in my opinion. Thanks for the video.
Are all Veritas planes bevel up? I wasn’t aware of that, pretty significant difference. I know most of the cos. have bevel up block planes and maybe a bevel up jack plane (?).
Thanks for making the video. I have the WR#5 and after doing the same tune up you did and Rob Cosman recommends it’s works well but I’m not overly impressed with it. I bought a Veritas low angle jack plane and it was a revelation to use a high quality tool. Entertaining and informative as always. Going forward I will only buy Veritas or LN. I would rather have fewer but better tools than more stuff.
I go to the woodcraft in wilmington del.i assume this is the one in downington. I asked the same thing about why the planes are not in sight. They told me when they un package them they start to rust and it is a pain to get off.
I invested in the English market variant of the WoodRiver 51/2 last September with a clump of vouchers I received as a birthday present. I have to say I have been pleasantly surprised with the tools performance. It did need a little fettling much like the ones in this video but 8 months in it still takes beautiful shavings and leaves a pristine finish that would be hard to achieve with abrasives. Great work as ever Erik.
As a hobbyist woodworker and pensioner, I have 2 #5 bench planes that took several hours of UA-cam taught fettling and tweaking, to work to my inexperienced satisfaction, and they cost about the same as that. And they live in a plastic tote in a damp storge shed. Are they heirloom quality not in the least. Will they continue to work, oh yah. I wipe the dust off then use the oil rag in a can after use. PS I live across the pond so I'm sure the import duties would be up there. Nice review. Take care & stay safe Curtis.
Everything is relative in WVA. I learned planes on Stanley Handymans, and my 1st new buy was a new Bailey-cheapo-version from Rockler. Needless to say, when I gave WR a try I spent way less time with sole/blade flattening than any Stanley I own...I was happy. But that will only last as long as I stay away from LN or Veritas, haha.
I really appreciate the review and the knowledge. Thought it was really funny when you commented on the handles cause they look just like any other to me. I'm sure hands on is different and a more experienced/refined eye I'm sure sees what you mean. But it looked just like the Lie-Nielsen's to me
At this point in my hobby, I have the #3 through the #8, all vintage stanleys from before WWII. They are fantastic and I love using them, and I've never spent more than 100$ on any individual one, the most expensive being the #8. I really would love to try out one of the new, high end hand planes, but I'm sure not willing to spend so much when what I have works so darn well. I do want to get some new blades though, the hock blades on my #3 and #8 are really nice.
If you have stanleys you have all you need ive had all of them currently have only a 4 converted to a scrub and 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 and a block sold all the rest because i never used them and i'm not a collector i've refurbished every stanley i've ever owned they stand the test of time
Stanley Bailey no.4 - $5 on a garage sale. Stanley Bailey no.5 - $15 at an antique store. Both restored, sharpened. Both work like a dream. Older tools are usually better quality and last ages. Just my thoughts.
A great companion video to this would be a Lie Nielsen unboxing. Go through the exact same process minus the drive! Personal opinion everyone who is interested in hand tools should buy a high end plane for their first one so they can feel how a proper plane should work. Then move into buying old iron and bringing them back to life.
Veritas has the same problem. I've seen their custom bench planes, their box maker's plow plane and their irons go on backorder in the last year or two. If there stuff wasn't so great, I'd give them up. alas...
If you don't mind the restoration work getting a vintage plane and fixing it up is a lot better than a new "prosumer" plane. I managed to get a vintage #4, #5, and a block plane for a great deal and fixed them up in a few hours. One of them could use a modern iron, but that's still cheaper overall.
Eric, thanks for this video. I know it was hard for you to walk back earlier harsh comments on Woodriver. I have a no. 6 and no. 4 that I am pretty happy with. In the future, I would like to try a Lee Nielsen plane but I’m an old guy just struggling to maintain a decent life and there are so many tools to buy. Concerning packaging, I think the plastic and grease are probably a good thing. Once the plane is finished it may need to stay in inventory for some time and that packaging should protect it till I get it home. I know that many food products are packed in nitrogen-an inert gas-to avoid oxidation. Even beer is legged in nitro to maintain quality. Maybe there’s nitrogen in that bag? Anyway, the only problem with my planes is the lateral adjustment lever: it seems the iron shifts on the frog and I have to constantly adjust to avoid gouging the wood. That’s probably owing to my lack of skill. I am now considering a low angle plane with an adjustable mouth to deal with some difficult wood and a Lee Nielsen would be my first choice.
Um, No. 6. How does it hold up after X months? Which you did mention (6). My first hand plane was a new Stanley block plane from the big box store. I never got it working. The bottom was so concave that it would have literally required at least a couple passes with and end mill flattening head. Which in turn might have removed so much material that the plane might have flexed under heavy load. That wasn't the only problem, I don't think I found them all. It eventually went to my local metal recycler because no one deserved that pain. I saved up, bought Lie Nielsen and Veritas planes for my primary workers since.
The newer Stanley’s are pretty bad. The Woodriver is a huge step up. The Stanley’s have plastic handles (knob was already broken when I opened the box) the iron was unserviceable so I used the one from the Woodriver and bought a hock blade.
@@jerrybrown1446 Wow. Have they become Chinese Junk now? I bought a #5 about 6 years ago and it did need a little flattening but the handles are wood and everything else works fine. Other than looking newer, it looks abot the same as the ones I've have from my Dad and Grandfather.
@@johnmcdougald1238 The website says “made in USA with global materials”. If you start out with a Stanley, the amount of time and money you spend on it will set you back a long way.
I'll take a chance and say what I think I'm hearing you say. After thinking about it this is what I should have done. If you're new to hand planes then buy the Veritas or Lie Nielsen. The Learning curve is smaller and the plane likely only needs a basic minor tune up to be ready for use. After that you'll learn how it works and build skills to prep a lesser quality plane. I got a Bench Dog plane as a gift and now I'm dreading trying to figure it out and not cause damage or mess it up. I have no idea what it's going to need done or how severe any flaws might be. I'm that guy with the quirky bad luck so it already worries me. I should have saved some and gotten a high end plane and be done with it.
I think you need to look at cheaper planes to see the value that Woodriver brings. I'm a thrifty (i.e. broke) beginner woodworker, and I just finished my first workbench using hardware store hand tools and materials. What I've learned is that most tools will get you where you need to go if you're willing to put in the time, but it can be a lot of time. I've spent a full work week of hours doing nothing but tuning up the plane I bought because anything that could be wrong with it was wrong. The price of a single Lea Neilson is so high that I'll stick to hours and hours of sanding and fitting, but the Woodriver is something that I might be able to swing.
I know the previous Woodcraft store in my city never seemed to know what items they had or what was in stock. I have been told "I am not familair with that tool" and "let me check" only to be told we don't have any and then walking around and finding it on the shelves myself. They closed a few years ago and a new Woodcraft store opened nearby but I have not gone in yet to see if it is any better.
I got 3 record planes for £25 in moderately bad condition and spent some time fixing them. They're now working great. Would I advise a new woodworker to do this? No
First of all, nice video, second, France, third when you take into account how many hours you put in fine tunning the plane regarding your houry rate, does it worth the saving? But, that aside, the first cheap hand plane I bought taught me a lot about caring and working with them, so I think everybody should have a go a it at least once. Again, great video! Keep it up
In Canada (at least where I am) because of exchange rates Woodriver planes are basically the same price as a Veritas which I can get at Lee Valley 15 minutes from my house. Because of that it never really made sense to me to even try them and I like trying to buy made In Canada when I can, especially for tools. Love the channel.
Bought a WR #4 and it was total crap even after fettling. I will stick to my Stanleys for "rough" planing and my 1800's British and Scottish infill planes for the final touches..
I have the 4-1/2" V3 version. The blade needs sharpening often, and it took about 1-1/2 hours for me to get it cutting what i consider decent. I'm not very experienced, but I watched several hand tool workers and 'listened' to them while watching them. Seems to me that using a hand plane effectively is like everything else: Practice, mistakes, learn, practice some more.
When I first started hand tool woodworking, I bought Wood River #5 1/2 and a block plane. Both served me very well; I still own them and use them. Yes, I was inspired by Rob Cosman and he has all the videos to help tune the plane. As I got “better” at the craft, I bought a Lie-Nielsen smoother and block plane. I like the L-N block plane because it’s smaller and has finer blade adjuster. And the L-N smoother is a dream in the hand. So all being equal, I reach for the L-N just because I like them better. I don’t think they function so much better, they are just my favorites. To be honest, I run IBC irons in all my bench planes. My point, I don’t think I would buy Wood River now. I’m too impressed with L-N and can afford the price. But I would highly recommend Wood River to beginners and those who are budget conscious.
Good to know from someone who actually went down the same path I'm looking at right now. I think I'll just save up and get the LN, because I'm sick of having multiples of tools since I bought a cheap version originally and shortly after went and got a better version.
@@505Daniel Certainly buy what you like, need and can afford. I do have specific times when I choose 5 1/2 over the 4 and vice versa. And I’ve never thought about replacing my Wood River with a L-N. The Wood River is more than adequate at meeting my expectations. It like if I’m hauling hay I’ll choose my 83 GMC. But if I’m going to church, I grab the Denali.
I bought my 1st hand plane a few months ago (#6) that was a Woodriver based on Rob Cosman and his setup videos. And to my surprise, the cut quality was right on vs out of the box which was really bad. I do have my eye on a Lie Nielsen 4 1/2 as my next that is 2 plus times the cost of my Woodriver I got on sale. So to me, the Woodriver is an exceptional value when considering the price. A little setup helps a newbie like me learn how a plane works too.
Rob Cosman has a great out-of-the-box tune-up video for woodriver planes. That was enough to get my #6 working fantastically. My only complaint is the side of the body isn't a perfect 90 degrees, so it's difficult to adjust the skew of the blade for a shooting board
Eric, on the part of what kind of tool steel the blade is made of, take a file to somewhere that want show and if the file just slides it's hard, if it bites into the metal it's soft, good tool steel O1 is 57 to 59 RC...D2 is 60 to 62 RC.
Oh, one more thing. I got one of the Bridge City planes, just because I had to have one. Mine had a huge dip in the middle, like totally unsatisfactory. I sent it back, and they sent me another one that had the exact same problem. I heard from Stumpy Nubs that they have 'fixed' that, but I still won't buy another one. If they don't have the quality control down for 'out the door' then the product is not worth the effort of fixing, especially for that price. It is a very 'strange' set up. Nothing is normal. Rex Krueger did a review of it and the one he got had the same problem.
I am some one who has to experiment, and can afford to try things just to see how they work. While it has some good ideas, I don't care for it. Some day I will flatten the sole and give it a good work out.
An old cabinet maker once told me: “I am not a wealthy man, I cannot afford to buy cheap tools”.
Buy once,cry once.👍🏝️🇨🇦
Buy cheap buy twice...😂
My grandmother used to say: "We are too poor (they really were) to buy cheap".
When I explored the market for a new plane I also watched a lot of videos here on UA-cam to get a good idea of what I was wanting. I didn’t go into the purchase knowing absolutely nothing about the product. I purchased a WoodRiver 5-1/2 and immediately tore it all down for proper cleaning, tuning, sharpening and reassembly. My experience with this plane has been similar to yours out of the gate but with a few minutes work all of those little things are gone and I am left with an exceptionally good plane. Tearing the plane down completely gave me a better understanding about the tool and how it works. Learning online from other’s knowledge gave me the confidence to go at it and I really enjoy using this plane. I would recommend the V3 planes to others if they follow the same procedures. I have had zero issues with the casting, squareness, flatness or any point if operation.
Same! I'd never used a plane (or chisels) but found it very intriguing so I watched several videos on tuning, sharpening, and using planes and chisels. Bought everything I needed, including the exact plane used in this video. Completely broke it down, tuned it, sharpened it, etc. (by following Rob Cosman's instructional video to a T) and so far so good. I actually enjoyed the whole process for the same reasons you state.
Being a Canadian, Wood River planes end up costing me the same as a Veritas. I have taken the vintage/antique route and spent a lot of time researching online and sweat a lot of hours of restoring Bailey planes. I think this was the best route as a beginner. It's saved me money by buying beaters and tuning them up and it's given me a very solid knowledge on how to make a plane work well. Great video. Love your content!
This is why I bought a $30 Stanley Bedrock #5 at an antique store, watched some restoration videos. Restored it, sharpened it and use it. For me as a novice woodworker, $100 is still a huge price to pay.
I have done the same. It definitely takes time to get the old Stanleys clean and sharp, but much of that, for me anyway, was the learning process of getting *any* plane clean and sharp.
Yesterday, I did the dumbest thing ever. I bought a Stanley #45 combo plane. I may even use it someday.
I bought a #4 and a #5 stanley bailey pre-WWII for $70. I then put some Reed adjuster knobs on them, flattened the soles, made some new totes and front knobs and sharpened the blades and they work great with a little adjustment
@christianlibertarian5488 you will, you will. Look up episode s37e12 and 13 of the Woodwright Shop. They will open your eyes to the possibilities.
I have watched several videos on plane restoration and every one that talks about new planes warping is because they don’t let the castings rest (allegedly) before they are machined so they still have internal stress.
@liquidrockaquatics3900
Yes, cast iron will worp over time. My sargent # 424 has a low spot that has showed back up, but the real problem is me observing over .005" hole over 24"
There will always be a place for cheaper tools, and that is when your neighbor asks to borrow one 🤷♂️
I have been woodworking for over 50 years, spent an inordinate amount of time researching tools before purchasing and have concluded that you just have to acquire something and use it yourself. The key word is USE it. I have invested heavily into LN tools with no regrets. EVERY tool I have ever purchased(hand and power) has had some degree of fettling to get maximum results except the Blue Spruce line of wood chisels which are sharp out of the box. People, the gateway skill is to learn how to sharpen.
When I took my shipwright training, the instructor purposely gave you dull tools.
Now gentlemen we are going to learn how to sharpen your blades.
As a beginner UA-cam gives you all the knowledge to get a tool up to a decent level these days......Love the PJs
The crazy thing to me is. Modern woodworkers do all this talking about plane quality an how well the blade holds up. The type of steel used. An then end up with a 2 thousand dollar certain green sander an dust collection system, doing the final finish work on there project.
#1 it’s “their”
#2 Sometimes you want to use a plane, and sometimes you need to use a sander.
Or you’re like me and you buy the $300 Bosch clone of the green sander and you hook it up to a $100 Ridgid shop vac outfitted with a dust separator and HEPA filter.
I use hand planes fir pretty much every thing. Only really use sand paper for prepping paint finishes or smoothing curves.
I pretty much snipe collector hand planes off of eBay these days for sport.
They rarely get used, but they look killer on the wall.
The trick is to get “caught” observing them by neighbors while holding an eccentric looking coffee cup.
@@3kainosI’m almost positive Bosch came before the rotex, either way, it’s a badass sander and if mine ever goes down, I’m getting a new one. I love the few festool things I have and all my friends that I’ve used, but that Bosch is just amazing
I live in Parkersburg, WV...the town where WoodCraft is based...and the NUMBER 1 store in here. SO, they have a section where they sell their returned items that are still good. I got a couple of their planes (No 5 and Block) for about 75% off so I have some. HOWEVER, I have ONE Lie Nielsen block plane my father gave me (because I can't afford them) and, for reasons I didn't understand until THIS VIDEO, it's so much easier to dial in than the WR ones. Thanks again for educating me more than anyone else has.
I’ve always appreciated your complete, transparent honesty. “I’ve got a vendetta against Wood River. Let’s call a spade a spade.”
Paul sellers has some excellent videos on how to restore an old plane and how to setup a brand new one. He does the same things re: softening the edges and mouth opening. If you are a beginner it is worth learning these skills so when you run across something at a garage sale you might be able to pick up a diamond in the rough and save a lot of money.
Well well Erik, fair video, I guess. I have been woodworking for over 50 years, own over 60 hand planes from most makers. I have replaced most of my Stanley blades with either Hock or IBC because older thin blades did not perform. Wood Rivers new planes are as good as any today, the blades hold up good in all types of wood. All planes, no matter what maker, need some tuning out of the box. Glad for your videos bud. Semper Fi Mr. X Prius man.
Good points, however I have several old Stanleys. Some I have upgraded to new irons, Hock mostly, and some I haven't. I don't see much different in the actual quality of the cut, I do see a bid difference in the time I can cut with the newer blade. I just don't believe the iron is significantly better if you sharpening properly, however I will agree that the newer blades stay sharper longer.
As a beginner I watch a lot of videos. I get most of my info from you and Rob Cosman. (Pretty close to 50/50 and you and he tend to have very different opinions, instruction, sharpening methods, etc.). He swears by his Wood River 5.5. He also has a video on a complete setup. I bought one based on it being in every video. Today I do the setup and initial try out. I think Rob’s affiliation with Woodcraft may be causing a bias. Some of us getting started have to draw a line somewhere because, well, the plane is only one of the many tools you need to get started.
I agree with you when it comes to hand tools I always listen to Rob Cosman. He hasn’t steered me wrong yet. I bought the wood river 5 1/2 also and haven’t been happier. I first bought an old Stanley Bailey no4 from a garage sale and it’s not good for much since I bought the wood river 5 1/2.
Question are hinted at in another comment below. Are the sides 90 degrees to the base? Does the sloppy paint / japanning push the side up and out of square when used on a shooting board? You note problems with fit and finish - was the sole flat (say to 0.0015)?
Is the sole flat? Like REALLY flat
Is the sole to the side @ 90° ?
Is the cap iron (chip breaker) fit tight to the iron?
A follow up video?
In Canada, Wood River is distributed through Rob Cosman. A Wood River #4 Smoother runs $369 CDN. A Veritas #4 comes in at $309 CDN with an O1 or A2 blade, $329 CDN for the PM11 version. So at $40 to $60 less for a plane with known quality and known blade steel, I'd have to go with the Veritas.
I actually sold my woodriver and got a Veritas last year. I live about an hour from Robs home/shop and got a #5 before covid. As you mention the Veritas is much cheaper and of significantly superior quality and it ships for free too vs paying for shipping when purchased from Rob
Ripoff rob
That would ABSOLUTELY be a no brainer! Veritas is head and shoulders ahead of Wood River!
In fairness the Woodriver planes Rob sells have been tuned up in their shop. They flatten the soles, chamfer the edges, flatten sharpen and micro-bevel the blade and about a half dozen other tune up steps and that is what you are paying extra for.
@@anthonymiller8979 You are absolutely correct. I have a wood river #5 and a bunch of other lien nielson planes. I had to tune up the wood river, but after that was fully done (it took a while as I didn't start with the know how) it performed about as well as my lie nielson planes. In fact now that I do know how to tune them up, I honestly cannot find much of a difference other than some of the fit and finish and a slightly more premium feeling adjustment knob. Its not necessarily any more or less accurate.
The difference between my high end planes and my wood river is not in the steel or design. The biggest difference I have noticed was the tuning out of the box. Essentially Rob is doing the tuning that I had to do myself and then it will perform as well. The Wood river planes were made using good materials and decent machining in a place with a very low cost of labor and almost no time spent on tuning up the plane. In from what I have seen they intentionally leave some surfaces like the back of the mouth so that someone else can tune them up. My experience in manufacturing suggests to me that this is an attempt to prevent shipping damage causing serious issues. If there is a small nick on the sharp edge, it will be evened out anyways when the tradesmen chamfers the edges themselves.
This obviously nocks the price down significantly. And I honestly based on my experience cannot recommend someone starting out with a wood river plane because of this. I would say the Rob cossman ones are priced appropriately given the work put into them, but at the same time why not just buy a veratas or lie nielson one? The fit and finish are better and they are also tuned out of the box just like the rob cossman ones. They will perform exactly the same so why not buy the cheaper one being the high end veratas one?
my 2 cents.
Plane coming out the greasy bag is like pulling entire pound of bacon out of the package on a Saturday morning for breakfast.
That, a dozen eggs sunny side up and a stack of flap jacks about half a foot high and I'm ready for another cup of coffee as I head to the shop to start the day making shavings. :)
Bacon makes ALL things better!
In my woodworking journeys, I have had a few of the Woodriver planes and generally agree with your review. When I was searching for an affordable #4, I tried the Rockler Benchdog series and they were even worse (so I took it back). I have also tried Stanley Sweetheart series and had to do many of the adjustments you mentioned. I need to choose where my dollars are best spent and so I look at safety, performance and try and reach a reasonable compromise to what I can afford. I enjoy your approach on how you can overcome some (but not all) inconsistencies in the product to reach some satisfactory tuning. We all have much to learn and you do a great job helping me on that journey. Keep up with your excellent guidance.
Thanx for an honest video and your honest opinion. The prep work required reminded me of the saying "All tools come as kits that need assembly, some more than others." The shavings seem to be split indicating a nick in the blade. Rob Cosman did some great videos on sharpening about 3 years ago on how to avoid these nicks.
Rob Cosman explains that even small serrations (barely visible scratches that extend to the micro bevel) cause splits in the shavings. In his setup video he filed the edges of the sole as well as the throat and flushed up the lever cal and chip breaker. I doubt any tool you get anywhere is 100% ready to go out of the box. I have a Veritas apron plane and the blade was in no different condition than the Wood River. Still had to flatten and polish the back (not the whole back just the micro bevel area). I follow his sharpening method that goes up to a 16000 grit Shapton. I would probably say the Wood River is at the low end of high end planes. Which I think is what Erik is saying too.
Stanley is the standard and we were spoiled forever. We have seen and experienced what a good plane should be. Anything that is lesser is easy to detect.
Your walk has me reminiscing on my years in Northern Liberties & Fishtown.
I have a Veritas jack and a Wood river 5 1/2 and find myself reaching for the Wood river twice as often. As for tuning it up I watched UA-cam and figured it out shortly. The experience of learning how is worth the effort. Education is worth the investment.
Nice, informative video. I think an infrequent flattening of the base is acceptable routine maintenance. Also, somewhere I got told the blade is T10 steel. This is a steel that is very good, good edge holding, sharpens to decent edge, a bit brittle though. But then it comes down to the hardening process. I have one blade that I have to deburr at each level to ensure only the finest of burr is removed. A heavy burr can infrequently snap away and cause a chipped edge. Other than that the other blades don't give me a problem and they all hold an edge long enough and fine enough for me. These features align with what I expect the characteristics of Chinese T10 would be.
I enjoy your videos and take on life. A bit of humour sets you apart from some other channels and is much appreciated. Wood river planes are actually made by Quangsheng in China. As best as I understand it, they will put a name on the lever cap for a price. I have a No. 7 from Quangsheng and regret buying it, even though I bought it in a sale. The plane took hours to be ready for use: there were sharp edges everywhere, the lateral adjustment didn't work as a result of those sharp edges and I had to get a new lever cap as the original was badly miscast and not machined properly. The pitch on the depth adjuster is quite coarse so it is difficult to set. Making the tote and knob comfortable was also time consuming. I find more pleasure and success in using a 60 odd year old Record number 8 and a £100 No 5 that I bought from Axminster (in the UK) that are made in India. Wood river and Quangsheng are sold as if they are premium planes at a reasonable price, but I am not convinced they are worth the money. In the video, you raise a question about the long term stability of the casting. My experience is that the sole has very slightly twisted over the 6 months I have had it. About 0.1mm to 0.2mm although it still seems to be flat along the length in the middle of the sole. Everyone will have different opinions but I think there are better options. If I have to spend hours fettling the thing, it makes more sense to me (an occasional user) to buy something cheaper or go with a Stanley from ebay.
Great video, Eric! Keep those very informative and entertaining videos coming!!
As always another great video. I for one have some very cheap plans. And I think my take away is what to look for and setup. So thank you. But now the cup is empty so it is time to make a thing. Tell next week my friend. Thanks again.
For me, I like Stanley type 12-14 planes, restored and flattened, with upgraded blades and breakers. I feel like I'm grabbing a piece of history every time I use them. Probably not going to save any money over a WR though. Thanks for the solid handshake in Austin a couple weeks ago👍
Thank you, Erik. Ive been curious for some time why you have seemed to so hate Woodriver planes. I currently have a set of Woodriver planes (4 thru 7; including the 4 1/2 and 5 1/2) and the block plane, and absolutely love them. But that’s just me, and the glory of humanity is that we are all different. You rock!
Is there a reason you did not test the flatness of the sole and sides?
Picked up a 5-1/2 two years ago and it was junk. So much so that it left a lasting impression on me. I haven’t stepped into a wood craft store since. Maybe I’ll change my mind someday but not today for sure. I ordered a Lie-Nielsen 5-1/2. And I love it
Was it the plane itself, or did it just need too much work to get working well?
Both actually. The plane itself was out of square both sides. And the parts were substandard.
Nice to see you back this week! lol and it looks like you hit up the Downingtown Woodcraft, one of 2 I usually go to depending on where my travels take me when I have a need. ( I'm just about middle between the Downingtown and Wilmington stores) Good video as I have been contemplating getting a newer plane instead of trying to get some older ones I have, restored to a functioning condition. Simply stated, I may just opt for the Veritas or the Lee Nielsen and spend the extra for the simple fact that as you stated, I don't know what I don't know, as a new user, to tune a lesser quality plane to function properly. As always, your videos are informative and very helpful. Thank you sir.
I love my lie-neilsen #4 plane which is now over 10 years old. I am a hobbyist woodworker and use a planer/jointer if I need to work large surfaces, and then follow up with a cabinet scraper.
Did want to mention that I kept the wood river plane because I spent about a full day getting it up to a reasonable level. It does take a ok shaving but doesn’t compare to either my Lie-Nielsen or any of my Veritas planes. Was it worth the price no not at all.
The people at Woodcraft not knowing what good shavings look like are exactly on brand with Woodcraft
I was given advice from a good woodworker at the point I first started playing with wood; get something you know works, so all the screw-up is definitely just you. I have a Veritas low angle jack and a Lie Nielsen block. They do work. They are a joy to use and I know the outcome is determined by my variability not the tools.
Thank you so much for your video! It ties nicely with a recent project of my own. I bought an Amazon basics #5 plane… 😖
Needless to say, for the significant saving in cost, the blade was not ground square. I spent last week educating myself on plane restoration, purchased a lapping plate and rolls of sandpaper to properly grind the blade. It now makes shavings 1/1000 of an inch! Thank you for sharing your passion for woodworking! 😊
Sidenote, I had two planes my uncle gave me that needed their blades properly squared as well. One was so bad I had to use several pieces of 180 grit paper on the lapping plate just to get the edge square 😬👍
Then I worked my way up to the 400/1000 grit wetstones. I also like to use a few drops of Trend Lapping Fluid to help lift the metal dust off the wetstone.
I bought the Wood River 4 1/2, and it cost approximately $200. I then watched a video by Rob on how to make it function as well as the others. There may be a slight difference in the feel of the two planes, but I'm still happy with my 4 1/2. Keep up the great videos.
I'm a big fan of Lie-Nielsen tools. They're planes are expensive, but work flawlessly. I recently bought a Woodriver 4 1/2 and a 5 1/2 plane to use in a secondary shop. I really like the look and feel of the Bubinga totes and knobs. Like Eric, I had to clean up the edges and mouths of the planes to eliminate burs. The back of each plane iron took a lot of work to get them flat. The chipbreakers also benefited from polishing the bevel. The A2 irons that come in Lie-Nielsen planes are slightly thicker and hold an edge longer than the Woodriver irons. However, the Woodriver irons are on par with after market plane irons. All in all the Woodriver planes are well worth what I paid for them and perform nicely. Are the Lie-Nielsen planes better, absolutely. Eric's review was as accurate and honest as it gets.
I bought one, got it home opened it , no sealed plastic bag, I’m guessing it was bought and returned by someone else. lol I still have it in the box I haven’t used it yet, been too long to return it.
Just got a new woodriver 51/2 a few days ago and as far as i can see it planes wood. Being a big knife person blade steel really doesn't matter as long as its some sort of high carbon. The sharpness isnt going to last forever
Thats a completely fair perspective, but a lot of folks (like me) want to spend a few minutes sharpening and would rather work for as long as we can before needing to sharpen again. Sharpening is a critical part of the overall process but eventually it becomes a chore.
I happen to love my WR 5 1/2 and low angle block. They are excellent.
Well, a couple of points. First, I am wondering if your first Woodriver planes were pre Rob Cossman. I know he had them make some changes in it when he was hired as a consultant or what ever he did with them. I am surprised that right out of the box, after wiping the oil off, you did not put straight edges on it, both for length and width. I do have a #5, and like you, I would not give it a 10, but then I never give anything a 10.... I do not care for the handle/tote in the back. The curve on the bottom hits a pressure point on the heel of that hand, so I have to adjust my grip. Not sure about the front knob. I am fairly new to hand planes, maybe 2 years. I do consider it part of the learning curve on them to be able to trouble shoot them before you ever start to use them. My dad gave me his Lie Nielson planes which he bought and never used due to mom's dementia which pretty much kept him out of his shop, though he never got into woodworking like I have. I did go through them, and take them apart and sharpen all of them. This was along with some used ones that I picked up at the local flea market. It does work, and I really can't tell if the plane blade is any better than any of the other planes I have. One needed skill for hand planes is to be able to take them apart and fix them so they work the way you want them to do.
My experience with the same WR #5 (purchased in late 2023 on a $40 discount sale) is similar. I like the fact that it's got the full frog plate of the Stanley Bedrock design, unlike most of its mid-price competitors; that design should make it much more robust. Importantly, the sole and sides were flat out of the box. Like you, however, I found the plane was creating tiny ridges (striations) in the wood when planing, and so I spent time filing the sole edges and mouth. I also realized I needed to round off the corners of the blade on this (and my other planes that I inherited) to avoid the striation marks. Most UA-cam teachers do not mention this need, I've found, but I'm glad I did it. Took quite a while to get all these cleaned up. Once I did, and after a few rounds of sharpening the blade so that it had proper sharpness and camber, I finally began to get the papery shavings I'd been hoping for. It's now planing very nicely.
As you said, the front handle isn't perfect; shorter would be better. Ergonomically, overall the plane is not bad but could be better. I haven't yet found a very comfortable hand position when using it with a shooting board, but it's okay for short sessions. I also found the depth adjuster a bit stiff, but it works fine.
All in all, I feel like I got a good product for much less than the higher-end competition. I don't have experience with Lie-Nielsen or Veritas planes, sadly, so can't compare. I would not have paid their higher prices as a fairly new woodworker, so this seems a sweet spot for me.
Thanks for the thorough review! And also thanks for promoting renewable energy. 👍💥
Quangsheng, Luban, and Wood River, from what I can find, are all made in the same factory, CIXI city Qiangsheng tool co., in China. Woodcraft has an exclusive distributor agreement in the USA so you'll never see the other brands ones available for sale in the USA. From what I understand they are all about the same in quality, unless a retailer is providing different specifications for their store brand planes.
I've picked up a few of the Luban and Quangsheng planes and they are similar in quality as to how what you've shown in your review. If I run across an used one cheap enough I might buy it to try it out, but I really don't need anymore planes at this point.
Quangsheng / woodriver seem to be very similar (if not identical ) , I bought a 4 1/2 when I just started out with the notion to upgrade to a veritas model when i could afford it , I had similar results you had out the box .
After attending school to learn how to "tune up" the plane and actually learn what sharp is!
Mine took about 1/2 day of fettling to get it up to furniture makers standard . lapping the sole on float glass , flattening the blade and getting to up to standard .
Was that 1/2 day worth the cost difference of the veritas / lie nelson , I think so.
Had a Woodriver 5-1/2 that I bought during Rob Cosman's PHP class a few years ago. Worked great! Ended up trading it for an old Stanley 5-1/2 as I have a small collection of Baileys going.
My Baileys are all users that are slowly being replaced by LN though. I've had some Veritas as well. Of all I've had, the LN are my favourite both aesthetically and as users.
I considered buying a WR plane as my first, but chose to spend extra and get the LN. I've been so happy with my decision, and it is a joy to use.
Agreed....the time I've spent trying to learn how, and unsuccessfully getting an old stanley to function well, I should of just spent the money on a good plane !!!
I own a Bronze Lie Nielsen No. 4 and several of other LN planes and several Veritas planes including their Low Angle Jack. I have, however, been able to expand my plane stable cheaply and efficiently by buying Miller's Falls planes for anywhere from twenty-five to fifty dollars each. They're good planes and I haven't had to put nearly as much work into them as you did to the Wood River plane. Thank you for your work and your commercials are wonderfully entertaining.
I own a couple Wood Rivers and some Lie Nielsens. I also have a Bench Dog router plane. The Wood Rivers work well for me. I'm glad I bought a Wood River first because it helped me to determine I like half sizes ( 4 1/2, 5 1/2) more than regular sizes. That saved me some money up front. i would have had a Lie Nielsen I didn't like had I bought a No 4 from them. I now try to buy American planes and the Wood River falls out of favor only cause it is made in China, and I can afford not to buy Chinese planes. Overall though Its like you said, Lie Nielsens are ready to go out of the box. The blades need a little honing and you're ready to work. Wood River has some start up time to get them ready but they're not bad planes.
I can't justify spending anymore than $50 on a hand plane knowing that almost every antique shop or flea market in the Smokey Mountains is bound to have a pre WWII Stanley
I got a 5-1/2. The first casting was not ground flat and square. They shipped a replacement out immediately. Second was perfect. I've been using it for months now and it's an incredibly great tool. It's price makes it an even better value.
The blade is a Chinese knock off of A2. In my experience, the hardness and edge retention is somewhere between O1 & A2. It does take an edge quickly and well enough. But a Hock O1 can definitely get sharper, but also dulls faster. I've had a 5.5 for about 10 years now and it works fine.
A few years ago, I bought a Stanley No. 5 (a new one, Bailey edition, not the other "normal one" they sell) and a No. 6 (this was the normal edition if you want to refer to it like that). I don't use the #6 since it's mostly a fore plane even after setting it up.
The bailey #5 needed a lot of previous work to make it "top notch", such as flattening the sole, changing the rear and tote, they came out of plastic and I had to make new ones out of wood, bought an English Stanley blade, cleaned the sides and some ergonomics, made sure that the frog sits well, etc...and still needs some tweking here and there but it performs well for most of the time.
After two years or so, I bought a low angle Stanley Sweet Heart and it worked almost flawlessly after an initial sharpening to the blade, and a light cut, leaving a better surface (smoother) than the Bailey.
If we do the math, with all the extra work made to the Bailey, it may have ended up costing almost the same as the SW (or even more if I put a hock blade).
In conclusion, few tools will come ready out of the box, and most of the time we users will have to make some setting up before starting to work (in Canada even RC makes a prep service for those planes before shipping).
Thanks for your review
I have the WoodRiver #4 v3 plane. Overall happy with it - I did get a Hock chip breaker later on. For my budget, I got it on sale and it does the job. I know that Veritas and Lie Nielson will blow it out of the water, but bang for the buck it works. I did some fine tuning with the blade and sole to make sure everything was flat. It was slathered in oil though, which took a while to wipe up.
I bought plane blades, made my own from some wood scraps. was super insightful, and as a hobbyist it was a good way to save money.
In Canada that plane is roughly $424.00 sold by Rob Cosman and ready to go right out of the box , so about a hundred dollars more than a Veritas
Eric, I bought a Woodriver 5 1/2 and a block plane. I must admit, I didn’t even look at the outer sleeve on the box bit I take your point. The 5 1/2 works pretty well. I have knocked the edges off it but not much more. I can get a sharp edge on the blade but I find it slight “crumbly” and likely to cause tracks even when it hasn’t been nicked on anything. I think I will be swapping it for a Hock blade. I simply could not get on with the “knuckle” adjuster on the block blade or the lack of lateral adjustment so the has been sold on.
You have any opinion on TaylorToolworks hand planes?
The Ohishi box told me to never soak the 3000/10000 stone. It said only hydrate while sharpening. Tom's website says so too. Should I soak my Ohishi stones? Do you actually get better results soaking the stone?
I must admit I have a bias for everything Lee Valley. It’s 10 minutes drive, my wife worked there for awhile and the tools are fantastic. I use birthday money to purchase tools or I have had the fortune of finding estate sales with the veritas tools for sale really cheap. I don’t think I’d buy anything else.
How does a sole bow or not remain flat?
BRO, i never watch the maker ads but yours was hilarious. great review as well.
Since most of us are capable enough to find your fine channel on YT I have to assume that we are capable enough to find out how to make a hand plane work well. I have a much better opinion of WR hand planes than you, but I also have a much smaller tool budget than you so I'm going to stick with them as they have worked well for me. I did appreciate your grudging lack of bias as you were testing out the number 5. Enjoyed the video, as always.
I have old Stanley planes, a #4, #5, #6 and #7. I didn’t pay more than $60 for any one of them and with some light restoration they all work insanely well. I’ll just stick with my old Stanleys. 😎
I have a Woodriver 5-1/2 among, also some Lie Nielsens for other bench planes and Veritas for speciality planes. The Woodriver bench planes are 'ok.' I started with a 4 and 5 and sold them. I actually think the blades aren't bad. But I 100% had to flatten the back befor use. I actually like it more than a Hock blade but less than Veritas PMV-11. Close, but not quite, to the quality of LN's blades. If you do a lot hand tool work, I think you'll be upgrading at some point to LN or Veritas anyway. If I had to do it again, I'd start with LN or Veritas. They hold their value so you can always sell them and get most of your money back. Not so with Woodriver.
Great video as always Erik as a new woodworker I would like to have a couple of planes just don’t know witch to buy and get them working so this helps a lot thanks for sharing
OK, so would you use it on a shooting board? Is the soulder and sole at a 90° angle to each other? And was the sole flat?
Hey Eric. I have a few Lie-Nielsen’s (5 1/2 and 7) and Woodrivers (5 1/2, 7 and others). The tool steel that comes with the WR’s is definitely somewhat softer when sharpening so I have to put less effort/strokes/etc into cambering the blade compared to the LN. I imagine after you sharpened it you cambered the blade more than usual and that’s why you were not getting a full width shaving. I don’t think I can tell a huge/significant difference in how long either holds an edge during use but I do think I can use the LN an additional 10 minutes or so before it needs sharpening compared to the WR. I will also say that with minimal modifications, the WR’s perform every bit as well as the LN’s (I might do a comparison video on my channel). I also have Veritas planes but I generally hate using them for two reasons. 1. They are bevel up and I feel like I get better results with bevel down planes and 2. Norris adjusters really suck (for many reasons) in my opinion. Thanks for the video.
Are all Veritas planes bevel up? I wasn’t aware of that, pretty significant difference. I know most of the cos. have bevel up block planes and maybe a bevel up jack plane (?).
@@victoryak86 Veritas makes both bevel up and bevel down planes. All of the Veritas ones that I own are bevel up though.
Thanks for making the video. I have the WR#5 and after doing the same tune up you did and Rob Cosman recommends it’s works well but I’m not overly impressed with it. I bought a Veritas low angle jack plane and it was a revelation to use a high quality tool. Entertaining and informative as always. Going forward I will only buy Veritas or LN. I would rather have fewer but better tools than more stuff.
I go to the woodcraft in wilmington del.i assume this is the one in downington. I asked the same thing about why the planes are not in sight. They told me when they un package them they start to rust and it is a pain to get off.
great video. ive been to that woodcraft but I typically go to the one in Wilmington.
I invested in the English market variant of the WoodRiver 51/2 last September with a clump of vouchers I received as a birthday present. I have to say I have been pleasantly surprised with the tools performance. It did need a little fettling much like the ones in this video but 8 months in it still takes beautiful shavings and leaves a pristine finish that would be hard to achieve with abrasives. Great work as ever Erik.
As a hobbyist woodworker and pensioner, I have 2 #5 bench planes that took several hours of UA-cam taught fettling and tweaking, to work to my inexperienced satisfaction, and they cost about the same as that. And they live in a plastic tote in a damp storge shed. Are they heirloom quality not in the least. Will they continue to work, oh yah. I wipe the dust off then use the oil rag in a can after use. PS I live across the pond so I'm sure the import duties would be up there. Nice review. Take care & stay safe Curtis.
Thanks for the video Eric,I think you’ve given the plane a fair revue.👍👍
Everything is relative in WVA. I learned planes on Stanley Handymans, and my 1st new buy was a new Bailey-cheapo-version from Rockler. Needless to say, when I gave WR a try I spent way less time with sole/blade flattening than any Stanley I own...I was happy. But that will only last as long as I stay away from LN or Veritas, haha.
I really appreciate the review and the knowledge.
Thought it was really funny when you commented on the handles cause they look just like any other to me. I'm sure hands on is different and a more experienced/refined eye I'm sure sees what you mean. But it looked just like the Lie-Nielsen's to me
At this point in my hobby, I have the #3 through the #8, all vintage stanleys from before WWII. They are fantastic and I love using them, and I've never spent more than 100$ on any individual one, the most expensive being the #8. I really would love to try out one of the new, high end hand planes, but I'm sure not willing to spend so much when what I have works so darn well.
I do want to get some new blades though, the hock blades on my #3 and #8 are really nice.
If you have stanleys you have all you need ive had all of them currently have only a 4 converted to a scrub and 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 and a block sold all the rest because i never used them and i'm not a collector i've refurbished every stanley i've ever owned they stand the test of time
Stanley Bailey no.4 - $5 on a garage sale. Stanley Bailey no.5 - $15 at an antique store. Both restored, sharpened. Both work like a dream. Older tools are usually better quality and last ages. Just my thoughts.
It is *Really* hard to find an old Stanley plane at a garage sale these days.
A great companion video to this would be a Lie Nielsen unboxing. Go through the exact same process minus the drive!
Personal opinion everyone who is interested in hand tools should buy a high end plane for their first one so they can feel how a proper plane should work. Then move into buying old iron and bringing them back to life.
Only problem with Lie Nielsen planes is that they are not always readily available. Always on backorder.
Veritas has the same problem. I've seen their custom bench planes, their box maker's plow plane and their irons go on backorder in the last year or two. If there stuff wasn't so great, I'd give them up. alas...
If you don't mind the restoration work getting a vintage plane and fixing it up is a lot better than a new "prosumer" plane. I managed to get a vintage #4, #5, and a block plane for a great deal and fixed them up in a few hours. One of them could use a modern iron, but that's still cheaper overall.
Eric, thanks for this video. I know it was hard for you to walk back earlier harsh comments on Woodriver. I have a no. 6 and no. 4 that I am pretty happy with. In the future, I would like to try a Lee Nielsen plane but I’m an old guy just struggling to maintain a decent life and there are so many tools to buy.
Concerning packaging, I think the plastic and grease are probably a good thing. Once the plane is finished it may need to stay in inventory for some time and that packaging should protect it till I get it home. I know that many food products are packed in nitrogen-an inert gas-to avoid oxidation. Even beer is legged in nitro to maintain quality. Maybe there’s nitrogen in that bag?
Anyway, the only problem with my planes is the lateral adjustment lever: it seems the iron shifts on the frog and I have to constantly adjust to avoid gouging the wood. That’s probably owing to my lack of skill.
I am now considering a low angle plane with an adjustable mouth to deal with some difficult wood and a Lee Nielsen would be my first choice.
Um, No. 6. How does it hold up after X months? Which you did mention (6). My first hand plane was a new Stanley block plane from the big box store. I never got it working. The bottom was so concave that it would have literally required at least a couple passes with and end mill flattening head. Which in turn might have removed so much material that the plane might have flexed under heavy load. That wasn't the only problem, I don't think I found them all. It eventually went to my local metal recycler because no one deserved that pain. I saved up, bought Lie Nielsen and Veritas planes for my primary workers since.
If you still have to modify it and make those adjustments, why not save even more moeny and do the same thing to a cheaper Stanley plane?
The newer Stanley’s are pretty bad. The Woodriver is a huge step up. The Stanley’s have plastic handles (knob was already broken when I opened the box) the iron was unserviceable so I used the one from the Woodriver and bought a hock blade.
@@jerrybrown1446 Wow. Have they become Chinese Junk now? I bought a #5 about 6 years ago and it did need a little flattening but the handles are wood and everything else works fine. Other than looking newer, it looks abot the same as the ones I've have from my Dad and Grandfather.
@@johnmcdougald1238 The website says “made in USA with global materials”. If you start out with a Stanley, the amount of time and money you spend on it will set you back a long way.
Why would anyone pay over $200 when there are TONS of great Stanley and Millers Falls vintage jewels outs there?????
I'll take a chance and say what I think I'm hearing you say. After thinking about it this is what I should have done. If you're new to hand planes then buy the Veritas or Lie Nielsen. The Learning curve is smaller and the plane likely only needs a basic minor tune up to be ready for use. After that you'll learn how it works and build skills to prep a lesser quality plane.
I got a Bench Dog plane as a gift and now I'm dreading trying to figure it out and not cause damage or mess it up. I have no idea what it's going to need done or how severe any flaws might be. I'm that guy with the quirky bad luck so it already worries me.
I should have saved some and gotten a high end plane and be done with it.
What country is it manufactured in, that could be the cause of the packaging and the amount of fine tuning the plane required to get it ready to use.
I think you need to look at cheaper planes to see the value that Woodriver brings. I'm a thrifty (i.e. broke) beginner woodworker, and I just finished my first workbench using hardware store hand tools and materials. What I've learned is that most tools will get you where you need to go if you're willing to put in the time, but it can be a lot of time. I've spent a full work week of hours doing nothing but tuning up the plane I bought because anything that could be wrong with it was wrong. The price of a single Lea Neilson is so high that I'll stick to hours and hours of sanding and fitting, but the Woodriver is something that I might be able to swing.
I know the previous Woodcraft store in my city never seemed to know what items they had or what was in stock. I have been told "I am not familair with that tool" and "let me check" only to be told we don't have any and then walking around and finding it on the shelves myself. They closed a few years ago and a new Woodcraft store opened nearby but I have not gone in yet to see if it is any better.
Can you do a video on how to make that sharpening station? 🙏🏻
I got 3 record planes for £25 in moderately bad condition and spent some time fixing them. They're now working great. Would I advise a new woodworker to do this? No
First of all, nice video, second, France, third when you take into account how many hours you put in fine tunning the plane regarding your houry rate, does it worth the saving? But, that aside, the first cheap hand plane I bought taught me a lot about caring and working with them, so I think everybody should have a go a it at least once. Again, great video! Keep it up
Another thought, the people from Wood River needs to hire a proper graphic designer!
In Canada (at least where I am) because of exchange rates Woodriver planes are basically the same price as a Veritas which I can get at Lee Valley 15 minutes from my house. Because of that it never really made sense to me to even try them and I like trying to buy made In Canada when I can, especially for tools. Love the channel.
Bought a WR #4 and it was total crap even after fettling. I will stick to my Stanleys for "rough" planing and my 1800's British and Scottish infill planes for the final touches..
I have the 4-1/2" V3 version. The blade needs sharpening often, and it took about 1-1/2 hours for me to get it cutting what i consider decent. I'm not very experienced, but I watched several hand tool workers and 'listened' to them while watching them. Seems to me that using a hand plane effectively is like everything else: Practice, mistakes, learn, practice some more.
When I first started hand tool woodworking, I bought Wood River #5 1/2 and a block plane. Both served me very well; I still own them and use them. Yes, I was inspired by Rob Cosman and he has all the videos to help tune the plane. As I got “better” at the craft, I bought a Lie-Nielsen smoother and block plane. I like the L-N block plane because it’s smaller and has finer blade adjuster. And the L-N smoother is a dream in the hand. So all being equal, I reach for the L-N just because I like them better. I don’t think they function so much better, they are just my favorites. To be honest, I run IBC irons in all my bench planes. My point, I don’t think I would buy Wood River now. I’m too impressed with L-N and can afford the price. But I would highly recommend Wood River to beginners and those who are budget conscious.
Good to know from someone who actually went down the same path I'm looking at right now. I think I'll just save up and get the LN, because I'm sick of having multiples of tools since I bought a cheap version originally and shortly after went and got a better version.
@@505Daniel Certainly buy what you like, need and can afford. I do have specific times when I choose 5 1/2 over the 4 and vice versa. And I’ve never thought about replacing my Wood River with a L-N. The Wood River is more than adequate at meeting my expectations. It like if I’m hauling hay I’ll choose my 83 GMC. But if I’m going to church, I grab the Denali.
I bought my 1st hand plane a few months ago (#6) that was a Woodriver based on Rob Cosman and his setup videos. And to my surprise, the cut quality was right on vs out of the box which was really bad. I do have my eye on a Lie Nielsen 4 1/2 as my next that is 2 plus times the cost of my Woodriver I got on sale. So to me, the Woodriver is an exceptional value when considering the price. A little setup helps a newbie like me learn how a plane works too.
Rob Cosman has a great out-of-the-box tune-up video for woodriver planes. That was enough to get my #6 working fantastically. My only complaint is the side of the body isn't a perfect 90 degrees, so it's difficult to adjust the skew of the blade for a shooting board
Eric, on the part of what kind of tool steel the blade is made of, take a file to somewhere that want show and if the file just slides it's hard, if it bites into the metal it's soft, good tool steel O1 is 57 to 59 RC...D2 is 60 to 62 RC.
Maybe I'm just broke but when did $230 (before discount) become cheap?
Oh, one more thing. I got one of the Bridge City planes, just because I had to have one. Mine had a huge dip in the middle, like totally unsatisfactory. I sent it back, and they sent me another one that had the exact same problem. I heard from Stumpy Nubs that they have 'fixed' that, but I still won't buy another one. If they don't have the quality control down for 'out the door' then the product is not worth the effort of fixing, especially for that price. It is a very 'strange' set up. Nothing is normal. Rex Krueger did a review of it and the one he got had the same problem.
They're a gimmick. Avoid at all cost.
I am some one who has to experiment, and can afford to try things just to see how they work. While it has some good ideas, I don't care for it. Some day I will flatten the sole and give it a good work out.