You won't hear a huge difference if you listen on a phone, as the phone usually rolls off about the same frequencies the cap does. Headphones/real speakers are crucial for this
Actually I could hear more than you think on a mobile. The vintage wiring sounds much more like I like my Rickenbackers to sound. Personally I think I'd go with a split on it, so I had the choice, because I can see the benefits and weaknesses of both sounds. Great information though, as I didn't realise this was what the difference between vintage and modern Ricks was. I've played both and one thing which hasn't changed is that they are all pretty lousy to play, without tweaking.
I was recording my 12 string yesterday and noticed the “mwah” thing going on with the blend knob, now just watching this was super awesome. Your videos rock, the vintage Rat mod is right up there with this one. Thanks for explaining/confirming this.
I bought a 360/6 Delux (with RickoSound) new in November of 1971, It's the one in my meme... It has the "transitional" pickups in it, I think they were installed from !969 to 1972, then the modern hi gains were used. My Rick has never had that kerang and big sparkly tones, despite have the wring checked several times, always been more like a beefy Strat sound almost. Last tech looked at impedance and checked with original specs and all works out... never nutted it out but never stopped me playing it for the last fifty something years...
Just swapped the "hot" 11-12K toasters out of my April 1994 Mapleglow RIC 12 with newer RIC scatter wound toasters AND the cap. HUGE difference, has transformed my previously loud but 'muddy' (no matter how adjusted or Jangleboxed) guitar to glorious 60s octave jangle. Sounds so good I don't even like using the Jangle Nano box as "essential" to THAT tone. If you are on the fence about those hot toasters you will not be disappointed with scats and the cap. Great video especially how the cap wakes up the octave strings! Thank you!
I have a 360/12V64 with the .0047uf cap installed with a 12 saddle brass bridge. Plus I unwound the pickups to 60s specs. I absolutely love the sound and tone.
I have a 1967 330 and a 360/12V64 made in 1996. I always wondered why the V64 sounded "off" in comparison to its older brother. Thanks for the explanation!
Thank You. Really love this. One of the best Rickenbacker videos here on youtube. Informative and entertaining. Personally, I love the "Vintage" sound. It really is the Rickenbacker signature 12 string sound that underpinned Harrison's and McGuinn's 12 string artistry. It's always amazed me how such subtle modifications to electronic circuits can have such a great impact on the sound they produce. Cheers from the Land Down Under.
Lovely. I did try to find a 12 saddle bridge but at the time they were hens teeth. My 2016 620-12 must have the Modern. Sounds just like it. Nice to see this one.
Great video Lyle and thank you. I know you were playing mostly clean, but didn’t mention a compressor. I think McGuinn and Mike Campbell used those with the Rick 12, and maybe part of what we hear was the vintage wiring and cap with compression ?
Thanks. Compressors are a slippery slope - what's the actual sound of the guitar vs what's processing? I did a bit of this Rick on the Princeton video the other day and I added a little limiting in post here and there. McGuinn also uses metal fingerpicks - you don't want to hear me flailing trying to use those torture devices...
Hmmm.... Good to know about the 4.7n cap and vintage pot values. Will have to check my 620/12 and see what it has in there. If you like the sound but want a wider neck, try to find a 660/12 and see how that feels....
Thanks for posting this. I have a 1992 Ric with the Hi-gain pickups and it is unplay-ably dark. It's the most beautiful yet worst playing/sounding guitar I own. The 330K pots read anywhere between 125K and 250K max. I bought a set of VI 250K and 500K pots with the plan to wire up a whole new harness like this. I think I'll go ahead and swap it out. Might strip the board and have tall frets installed too. I love Ric's but man they can be frustrating.
With the .0047 cap in series, what I heard was it CUT the bass frequencies and focused more of the mid frequency passing through the overtones of the octave 12 strings more. I might be wrong so correct me if I'm wrong
I guess the cap was removed mid eighties because by that time the amps and speakers had gotten brighter . The old amps being dull ( when turned up ) could well be the reason Telecasters were so popular in the early days : they sounded very bright , cut through the mix better .
I perfer the vintage wiring. Hope you are feeling better. Just want to give some positive feedback. Brad from Brad's Guitar Garage on UA-cam gave you a great comment during a live stream saying that you are a great designer of amps. Your even known in Australia for your knowledge! Take care and have a great weekend.
Did the older Rics with High Gains also have the cap? I had a mid/late 80’s 610 when I was on a Paul Weller kick and I didn’t think it sounded “quintessentially Rickenbacker”. I chalked that up to not having a Vox, or compressor pedal, or Toaster pickups but maybe the lack of a cap had something to do with it? Honestly, I didn’t find the sound of that 610 remarkably different than a Telecaster - which has fewer obnoxious quirks than the Ric.
To my ears and 8" studio monitors the vintage gives a richer sound, due to the better balance of the two courses. But I should confess to being vintage biased. Cheers ;)
That very first riff is familiar i wanna say pretenders. I know its not tho. To me ? The ric has always had that jangly kind of lack of power thing that works so well for that particular application. I should add that ive learned alot more than i previously knew here.
What I would do is add a 5 position, 4 pole rotary switch in place of the bridge tone pot, with a choice of cap values on that bridge output wire. This way you can have choices of how much of the low frequencies are filtered. After all, who ever uses a regular tone pot on a bridge pickup? If anything I would love the option of making it sharper. I'd run from .033 , .047 .068 and .1 then have one position for bypass.
Polyester 630V because it have a lot of them but it doesn't matter. There is no voltage here and the material doesn't affect the sound. Any 4.7nf film cap would do. Axial for the layout. You can experiment with the cap value. 4.7nf with the 125K to ground puts the high pass at 271Hz. I just went with that value.
@@PsionicAudio Thanks the 630 volt rating does effect the DF and some other factor that would at best confuse most people. I enjoy your approach to this subject . Well I must take your work and word on the cap material not effecting the sound in this case . It what I play with HiFi amps they have a very large difference in power supplies and in signal applications . But that is a rather different use case . Enjoy the videos.
So why did Rickenbacker decide to make the change?Was it lack of access to quality parts or parts in general as manufacturing bases change or metals become scarce (ie something that forced their hand)or for reasons of cost reduction etc (ie laziness and cheating) or was it through talking with hard core Rickenbacker users about preferences and also Rick factory experimentation etc?
It's a mute point really with all the guitar effects and gadgets people use on their instruments these days it's just a matter of adding an eq and some compression then the Rick can sound modern or vintage.
Mute points aren’t always great for audio. I disagree - getting the source right, especially with pickups and their resonant peaks, is crucial. But that’s moot for some.
I just liked and subscribed ... amazing info! I've always loved the jangle of a 12 string Ric and eventually want to get an electric 12. Are you familiar with Lollar's Broiler pickups? Not exactly a Toaster, but has a great jangly sound: ua-cam.com/video/9LY5D1MIXaI/v-deo.html Some Ric owners have them in their guitars. If put in a maple body guitar, one might get some of the Ric type jangle. Makes me curious if the .0047 cap would help even with those installed. I'm thinking it would from all you stated on this video
@@PsionicAudio first look at all the videos of the song. No 12-string. Second, listen carefully and you will notice that there is no G string high octave sounding when the first note ( A ) is played. There is no doubling of the B or E strings either.
@@zurdoremi In videos they're either miming, or on tour when they wouldn't necessarily use the same guitars for a song that they used in the studio. For TTR live, George would need to play his own 12 string riff *and* Paul's lead part; since he couldn't do both on the 12 string, the compromise was to play the 12-string studio part live on his usual 6 string - you can hear George fluff Paul's lead part here at 1:35 - ua-cam.com/video/ICwIt47toMc/v-deo.html . But I can DEFINITELY hear the octave'd G-string and the chorusing of the B string on the studio version from Help. ua-cam.com/video/UHsN9d4FTVI/v-deo.html.
You are correct. The Beattles did not use a 12 String on Ticket to Ride. THEY USED TWO OF THEM. John played his 325/12 and George played his 3x0/12 (330 or 360 depending on what naming convention you choose to use.)
Sorry. I thought you mean 500K instead of 1M on the volumes. This guitar was long ago enough that I forgot what was in it. I used 250K volumes and 500K tones because that's what Rick used in '64. The 500K tones function almost like a "no load" tone circuit. Turned up all the way they don't really color it at all. And when using more than one pickup at once the tone R drops to 250K, which is enough to keep the sound natural. If they had used 250K tone pots then when you used two pickups together the sound would be slightly darker. Because at the frequencies that want to pass through the (now doubled in capacitance) tone caps the resistance would be halved. You can replicate this if you have a Les Paul. Turn both tone knobs to about 7 (should be roughly 250K). Either pickup by itself should be only slightly darker than with the tone on 10. But both pickups together will sound darker.
I was wondering this too, thanks for the extra explanation! Presumably this both pickups darkening effect is only an issue when a guitar uses individual tone pots for each pickup? Since in 1vol1tone guitars the both pickups option usually sounds brighter from the parallel pickup inductance and resistance allowing a higher resonant peak, and the circuit would have the same tone pot R to ground as with a single pickup.
I love those guitars but they really are a kind of one trick pony. In other words, you aren't doing metal or even whiskey blues with em. Dreamy prog? Oh yeah!
The effect is quite pronounced on basses, much more so than guitars. On the basses, the instrument 'speaks with an accent'. I should point out, a different model pickup is used, the infamous 'Horseshoe', which, BTW, sounds bloody awful by itself.
Fine chineese chicken guitar. Looks a lot like a Rick. But we can all hear that the sound is not as good as a real Rick. Lot of intonation and buzzing problems. New nut and fretting and all the other setup, and youre fine to go.
You won't hear a huge difference if you listen on a phone, as the phone usually rolls off about the same frequencies the cap does. Headphones/real speakers are crucial for this
Actually I could hear more than you think on a mobile. The vintage wiring sounds much more like I like my Rickenbackers to sound. Personally I think I'd go with a split on it, so I had the choice, because I can see the benefits and weaknesses of both sounds. Great information though, as I didn't realise this was what the difference between vintage and modern Ricks was. I've played both and one thing which hasn't changed is that they are all pretty lousy to play, without tweaking.
Same here. It isn't huge on the phone, but it is clearly audible....
I was recording my 12 string yesterday and noticed the “mwah” thing going on with the blend knob, now just watching this was super awesome. Your videos rock, the vintage Rat mod is right up there with this one. Thanks for explaining/confirming this.
I bought a 360/6 Delux (with RickoSound) new in November of 1971, It's the one in my meme... It has the "transitional" pickups in it, I think they were installed from !969 to 1972, then the modern hi gains were used.
My Rick has never had that kerang and big sparkly tones, despite have the wring checked several times, always been more like a beefy Strat sound almost. Last tech looked at impedance and checked with original specs and all works out... never nutted it out but never stopped me playing it for the last fifty something years...
I must admit, the “vintage” sounds really good with some overdrive on it.
Just swapped the "hot" 11-12K toasters out of my April 1994 Mapleglow RIC 12 with newer RIC scatter wound toasters AND the cap.
HUGE difference, has transformed my previously loud but 'muddy' (no matter how adjusted or Jangleboxed) guitar to glorious 60s octave jangle.
Sounds so good I don't even like using the Jangle Nano box as "essential" to THAT tone. If you are on the fence about those hot toasters you will not be disappointed
with scats and the cap. Great video especially how the cap wakes up the octave strings! Thank you!
I have a 360/12V64 with the .0047uf cap installed with a 12 saddle brass bridge. Plus I unwound the pickups to 60s specs. I absolutely love the sound and tone.
Agreed! Push-Pull. Nothing wrong with options. I own a 330-12. I am going to have everything done to it you have shown here.
Did you do it? I just got a 2002 360.
I just ordered pots and caps to redo my “1993” model. Push/pull too. I’d like to make use of middle pickup.
I was wondering about that… just got a 360/12 re-issue. Thank you very much for this video info about the Rick! 👍👌✌🏼
I have a 1967 330 and a 360/12V64 made in 1996. I always wondered why the V64 sounded "off" in comparison to its older brother. Thanks for the explanation!
Thank You. Really love this. One of the best Rickenbacker videos here on youtube. Informative and entertaining. Personally, I love the "Vintage" sound. It really is the Rickenbacker signature 12 string sound that underpinned Harrison's and McGuinn's 12 string artistry. It's always amazed me how such subtle modifications to electronic circuits can have such a great impact on the sound they produce. Cheers from the Land Down Under.
Thanks mate!
Lovely. I feel your love towards Rick 12 strings!
Lovely. I did try to find a 12 saddle bridge but at the time they were hens teeth. My 2016 620-12 must have the Modern. Sounds just like it. Nice to see this one.
There is one advertised on Ed Roman's site, but the page is from 2013.
What an amazing sounding guitar.
Yeah..! Such a unique sound Lyle.. I'd love one of those..Ed..UK..😀
I appreciate that you put South Central Rain in there at the end, as I've always had a 12 string at the ready because of that song.
It's Mitch Easter's Fender Electric XII doubled with the 360 (6 string) on the recording.
@@PsionicAudioI'm a complete REM nerd, and I didn't know that.
Great video Lyle and thank you. I know you were playing mostly clean, but didn’t mention a compressor. I think McGuinn and Mike Campbell used those with the Rick 12, and maybe part of what we hear was the vintage wiring and cap with compression ?
Thanks. Compressors are a slippery slope - what's the actual sound of the guitar vs what's processing? I did a bit of this Rick on the Princeton video the other day and I added a little limiting in post here and there.
McGuinn also uses metal fingerpicks - you don't want to hear me flailing trying to use those torture devices...
Great presentation! Gonna add the cap to mine :)
love both sounds wish I had the #RICKENBACKER with the set up your playing.Push pull works for me......
One other thing, I believe the pickup resistance on the 360 12 / V64 is higher. That makes a difference to the tone as well. Cheers.
Hmmm.... Good to know about the 4.7n cap and vintage pot values. Will have to check my 620/12 and see what it has in there. If you like the sound but want a wider neck, try to find a 660/12 and see how that feels....
I prefer modern but would like a push pull for both. Thanks for this!
The nut was too high on my 360 so i had my guitar luthier cut them down and now its perfectly intonated all along the fretboard!beautif guitar
The option of being able to move that resonant peak is pretty cool. I wonder what this Rick would sound like with a continuously variable peak.
Thanks for posting this. I have a 1992 Ric with the Hi-gain pickups and it is unplay-ably dark. It's the most beautiful yet worst playing/sounding guitar I own. The 330K pots read anywhere between 125K and 250K max. I bought a set of VI 250K and 500K pots with the plan to wire up a whole new harness like this. I think I'll go ahead and swap it out. Might strip the board and have tall frets installed too. I love Ric's but man they can be frustrating.
The 350 I did had the Hi Gains. It sounded great after I rewired it, though I didn't use the Rick schematic.
@@PsionicAudio can you post a wiring diagram, please? Great Video 👍
With the .0047 cap in series, what I heard was it CUT the bass frequencies and focused more of the mid frequency passing through the overtones of the octave 12 strings more. I might be wrong so correct me if I'm wrong
That's, um, exactly what I said.
;)
The R.E.M. at the end 🎉
I guess the cap was removed mid eighties because by that time the amps and speakers had gotten brighter .
The old amps being dull ( when turned up ) could well be the reason Telecasters were so popular in the early days : they sounded very bright , cut through the mix better .
I perfer the vintage wiring. Hope you are feeling better. Just want to give some positive feedback. Brad from Brad's Guitar Garage on UA-cam gave you a great comment during a live stream saying that you are a great designer of amps. Your even known in Australia for your knowledge! Take care and have a great weekend.
I guess my check cleared. ;)
@@PsionicAudio Lol 😆
Did the older Rics with High Gains also have the cap?
I had a mid/late 80’s 610 when I was on a Paul Weller kick and I didn’t think it sounded “quintessentially Rickenbacker”. I chalked that up to not having a Vox, or compressor pedal, or Toaster pickups but maybe the lack of a cap had something to do with it?
Honestly, I didn’t find the sound of that 610 remarkably different than a Telecaster - which has fewer obnoxious quirks than the Ric.
Can you use an EQ pedal to rectify this?
I had two Rick 12s and hated the narrow neck
It’s not just the cap… it’s the pots too… people forget that
To my ears and 8" studio monitors the vintage gives a richer sound, due to the better balance of the two courses. But I should confess to being vintage biased. Cheers ;)
I love the vintage
I did the Ultimate V64 mod- I sold it and bought the PT Plus!
That very first riff is familiar i wanna say pretenders. I know its not tho. To me ?
The ric has always had that jangly kind of lack of power thing that works so well for that particular application.
I should add that ive learned alot more than i previously knew here.
It's kinda derived from BotCG but I was just playing open strummy chords.
What I would do is add a 5 position, 4 pole rotary switch in place of the bridge tone pot, with a choice of cap values on that bridge output wire. This way you can have choices of how much of the low frequencies are filtered. After all, who ever uses a regular tone pot on a bridge pickup? If anything I would love the option of making it sharper. I'd run from .033 , .047 .068 and .1 then have one position for bypass.
Next time, pls play the 'Hazy Shade of Winter' riff.
Were Ric 6 strings also equipped with this cap in the vintage era?
Yes
Interesting what was the cap made of ? Vintage I would guess ceramic . Have you tried a polyprop or polystyrene in the 6800pf range ?
Polyester 630V because it have a lot of them but it doesn't matter. There is no voltage here and the material doesn't affect the sound. Any 4.7nf film cap would do. Axial for the layout.
You can experiment with the cap value. 4.7nf with the 125K to ground puts the high pass at 271Hz. I just went with that value.
The vintage caps were polyesters.
@@PsionicAudio Thanks the 630 volt rating does effect the DF and some other factor that would at best confuse most people. I enjoy your approach to this subject . Well I must take your work and word on the cap material not effecting the sound in this case . It what I play with HiFi amps they have a very large difference in power supplies and in signal applications . But that is a rather different use case . Enjoy the videos.
Much prefer it without the cap!
Gotta go vintage wiring!
The necks on the new guitars can handle the tension just fine. The « R » tailpieces on the other hand…..
Oh, and kudos for throwing So. Central Rain in at the end. 🥰
I prefer the modern. It sounds fuller and a little less "brittle".
It fits so well in a mix with the vintage circuit. But playing by itself could be grating. Having it switchable would be awesome.
Yes please. I’ll take the vintage version. If I was the customer, that’s what I’d say anyway.
Do you ever use compressor pedals ?
He is definitely using heavy compression here, which is most of this 'rick sound'...it's really heavy compression.
I still like the vintage At first it sounds bright It has more tone
So why did Rickenbacker decide to make the change?Was it lack of access to quality parts or parts in general as manufacturing bases change or metals become scarce (ie something that forced their hand)or for reasons of cost reduction etc (ie laziness and cheating) or was it through talking with hard core Rickenbacker users about preferences and also Rick factory experimentation etc?
I’d like to hear this demo on a 6 string guitar
Send me a 6 string Rick and I'm happy to oblige. ;)
What's the point of a Rickenbacker that doesn't sound like a Rickenbacker ? It's so distinctive.
Uhh the modern can get a little boomy. Bleed off the bottom is clearer!
Vintage Rickenbackers used 44 guage wire for their pickups.
I don't know. I've owned 2 330's and a 370/12 and in my time a Rick is only good for 12 string.
If they didn't sound so damned good, I'd hate Rickenbacker in general.
It's a mute point really with all the guitar effects and gadgets people use on their instruments these days it's just a matter of adding an eq and some compression then the Rick can sound modern or vintage.
Mute points aren’t always great for audio.
I disagree - getting the source right, especially with pickups and their resonant peaks, is crucial.
But that’s moot for some.
I just liked and subscribed ... amazing info! I've always loved the jangle of a 12 string Ric and eventually want to get an electric 12. Are you familiar with Lollar's Broiler pickups? Not exactly a Toaster, but has a great jangly sound: ua-cam.com/video/9LY5D1MIXaI/v-deo.html Some Ric owners have them in their guitars. If put in a maple body guitar, one might get some of the Ric type jangle. Makes me curious if the .0047 cap would help even with those installed. I'm thinking it would from all you stated on this video
To me, the “modern” setting sounds like a 12-string electric; the “vintage” sounds like a Rickenbacker.
The Beatles did not use a 12-string in Ticket to Ride. I hear no difference bypassing the cap.
They most certainly did. Listen again.
@@PsionicAudio first look at all the videos of the song. No 12-string. Second, listen carefully and you will notice that there is no G string high octave sounding when the first note ( A ) is played. There is no doubling of the B or E strings either.
@@zurdoremi In videos they're either miming, or on tour when they wouldn't necessarily use the same guitars for a song that they used in the studio. For TTR live, George would need to play his own 12 string riff *and* Paul's lead part; since he couldn't do both on the 12 string, the compromise was to play the 12-string studio part live on his usual 6 string - you can hear George fluff Paul's lead part here at 1:35 - ua-cam.com/video/ICwIt47toMc/v-deo.html .
But I can DEFINITELY hear the octave'd G-string and the chorusing of the B string on the studio version from Help. ua-cam.com/video/UHsN9d4FTVI/v-deo.html.
You are correct. The Beattles did not use a 12 String on Ticket to Ride. THEY USED TWO OF THEM.
John played his 325/12 and George played his 3x0/12 (330 or 360 depending on what naming convention you choose to use.)
@@karmicselling4252 interesting… the lick can be played at the nut and at the fifth fret. I bet John played at the fifth fret and George at the nut.
Why not have 500k Volumes?
…for that matter why not 1meg Tones as well?!
😉
500k volumes would make the sound a bit darker. 1M tones wouldn't do anything for most of their rotation.
@@PsionicAudio 500 would be darker than 250?
Are you sure…
Surely the greater the number the less treble attenuation?🤔
Sorry. I thought you mean 500K instead of 1M on the volumes. This guitar was long ago enough that I forgot what was in it.
I used 250K volumes and 500K tones because that's what Rick used in '64.
The 500K tones function almost like a "no load" tone circuit. Turned up all the way they don't really color it at all. And when using more than one pickup at once the tone R drops to 250K, which is enough to keep the sound natural.
If they had used 250K tone pots then when you used two pickups together the sound would be slightly darker. Because at the frequencies that want to pass through the (now doubled in capacitance) tone caps the resistance would be halved.
You can replicate this if you have a Les Paul. Turn both tone knobs to about 7 (should be roughly 250K). Either pickup by itself should be only slightly darker than with the tone on 10. But both pickups together will sound darker.
@@PsionicAudio well that’s kinda my point, then -why NOT use 500k or more for volumes and tones and leave 250 alone if brightness is the point?🤷♂️
I was wondering this too, thanks for the extra explanation! Presumably this both pickups darkening effect is only an issue when a guitar uses individual tone pots for each pickup? Since in 1vol1tone guitars the both pickups option usually sounds brighter from the parallel pickup inductance and resistance allowing a higher resonant peak, and the circuit would have the same tone pot R to ground as with a single pickup.
I love those guitars but they really are a kind of one trick pony. In other words, you aren't doing metal or even whiskey blues with em. Dreamy prog? Oh yeah!
Hubert Sumlin did OK with his Rick 6 strings...
I don't play enough of that style to warrant the $2-3k on a Ric but the Dano '59 DC 12 gets it close enough for me 👍
You'd be surprised at how well the Hi-gain 6 strings will do blues.
The effect is quite pronounced on basses, much more so than guitars.
On the basses, the instrument 'speaks with an accent'.
I should point out, a different model pickup is used, the infamous 'Horseshoe', which, BTW, sounds bloody awful by itself.
man those things are cool as hell but could never afford one
The DanElectros are very nice ( I have a RIC as well)
You could say "I don't have a horse in that race", but horse racing is not much better than dog fighting.
Also prefer the vintage. I don't understand why they won't widen the neck a little. I just won't buy anything I have to fight with.
The 1993 plus has the wide neck on it.
660 and 1993 plus has a wider neck
It’s RickenBACKer, not RickenBOCKer.
Vintage sounded better..
Fine chineese chicken guitar. Looks a lot like a Rick. But we can all hear that the sound is not as good as a real Rick. Lot of intonation and buzzing problems. New nut and fretting and all the other setup, and youre fine to go.
Hogwash. Real Rick with typical real Rick issues.
Don't call them rickenbacher