Rickenbacker Pickups - High Gain vs Toasters (Creamery Mid '63s)
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2024
- So we've reached the end of the Rickenbacker journey...!! So far, I've changed out the pots, added the vintage 'high pass' capacitor to a toggle switch, and replaced the normal bridge with a Mastery. But today, we'll be looking at the biggest difference between the modern guitars and the 1960s ones...the pickups.
I'll be replacing the Rickenbacker High Gain pickups - which have a fairly high DC resistance and use ceramic bar magnets - for some more vintage correct Toaster pickups made by The Creamery in Manchester. These have a lower DC, and use AlNiCo poles - as well as looking pretty glitzy too! I'm hoping these will be the missing piece of the puzzle to really make my 330 sound like the old ones. Will they give me the scoopy jangle and glassy top end I've been searching for? Let's find out?
What do you think? Which do you prefer? And why? Comment below!
Amps are a Dr Z Z-Wreck, a Vajra JTM45 clone and Orange Retro 50 - all running into a Zilla Studio Pro 2x12 cabinet loaded with Scumback S75-PVC AlNiCo and Celestion AlNiCo Gold speakers. Recorded with Aston Spirit Condenser, '70s Sennheiser MD441 and sE RNR1 ribbon mics, with a Schoeps CMC6 room mic.
0:00 Intro
6:27 Dr Z Z-Wreck
8:36 JTM45
11:51 Orange Retro 50
14:35 Outro
joeperkinsmusic
jp@joeperkins.co.uk
Vector images by freepik.com
What I learned from this is I need Two Ricks, one with high gains in it and one with those creamery pups in it.
they both sounded delicious.
Is it a sin to use one high gain and one toaster in the position of your choice? I didn’t think so. 😊
Toasters all day
Damn straight :-)
For the same reason you mentioned I swapped in a Creamery ‘63 in the neck position in my 620 and haven’t ever looked back. I actually really like the hi gain in the bridge coupled with the toaster in the neck, they’re quite balanced and compliment each other nicely. Best of both worlds.
The creamery pups are so much more sonically dynamic but I’ve had a bit of fungus tonight. But all that said I’m gonna order some for my 360.
I know I’m a year late but I want to thank you for this demo. It has made a big difference in what I was contemplating with my own 330 which I have owned since 1995. Most music I play is not a traditional jangly Beatles Petty sound but still clean to OD and bit more aggressive. I have also struggled with the clarity on the top end of the neck PU and have never considered the toasters, but I am now!
Toasters for me ... that's all I've ever had; as you said "you can't beat their clean, jangly sound." BTW, very nicley done, especially the magnet difference. Thanks ...
Great comparison! I grew up listening to The Beatles - the Creamery set sound like the real deal to me 😀
cool video :). i finally, after 45 years, bought a used 660/12 w/ toasters....... it is a masterpiece of a guitar..... i hope u get the tone u r looking for.... me too, i am not 100% happty w/ my ricky sound ...it is awesome some days and a lil to much to tame other days :)
I appreciate your informative videos and enthusiasm. Personally, I love the hi-gains on either the 330 or 360. They give me a very warm, distinctive, and full-sounding jangle, which, as a flat-picker, is exactly what I love.
Yeah, the High Gains definitely have their place - Toasters aren't 'better', they're just different. 👍
I have pondered swapping my high gains for toasters on my 1990 350. I think I will leave things alone after hearing this video. Thank you for putting so much effort on making this! What I want to hear now is the difference in the bridge pickup between the high gain and the humbucker. (as in the 350HB)
I have a 360 Rick that I put a toaster up front after the original pickup failed due to corrosion. Although the output is lower it's definitely a more satisfying Rick tone. This is a good comparison. Well done.
I thought the Hi Gains stood proud on the bridge setting, while being a bit muffled on the neck. I think they are as equally as valid a choice as the Toasters depending on what you want to do.
I have a Hi Gain in the neck of my 90’s 360 that was rewound to Toaster specs(7.4k) and it is much more usable. The original pickup from the factory had been wound to 17 or 18k, it looked like somebody just filled the coil until it was full.
I also changed the 5th knob to a version of the G&L passive treble and bass control for the the neck pickup and it is a lot more usable that the original mix control.
Creamery makes a much hotter '68 style Toaster, which is basically a Hi-Gain but with a toaster's rod magnets for that little bit of more immediate sting (like a hot Tele pickup vs a P90). I think I'd probably want the '68 Toaster in the bridge and the '63 in the neck.
Bloody brilliant video. I have a 2020 360 and thought it was the true RB sound until I watched your video. Playing Mr. Tambourine Man would have been a great test. Thanks Perky.
I answered this Q in the end of October Q&A :-) Sadly, the UA-cam Copyright Police aren't as much of a fan of playing Beatles tunes as we are :P
@@JoePerkinsMusic that's alright since Mr. Tambourine Man is by the Byrds ;p
Completely agree Toasters more clarity I prefer them over Hi Gain
Toasters ... love your ric videos . Great playing
Thanks mate - Toasters are my favourites too :-)
Excellent and congratulations on your final result.
Be sure to crank that up through a Hiwatt sometime-quite a glorious thing(:
Ooh I'd love to! :-)
And thanks for the great review!!!!!
The Creamery makes those Toaster pickups in a PAF size so you can get the jingle jangle in a non-Ric guitar. I put them in an Epiphone and they sound amaaAAAzing.
Nice! Toasters are ace :-)
Thanks for the heads up! I want a toaster in the neck of a Tele.
@@thesjkexperience That'd be nice! 🙂
I like both . I need another Rickenbacker...
I'm with you, I very much prefer the clean but punchy toaster PU sounds! For this, recently I bought myself a renewed 350 V64.
Agree with the others. Toasters all day long.
On a separate note: i LOVE that Orange amp
The Retro 50 is one of my favourites :-)
Those creamery pups are a definite upgrade
Wow, this is the first time I've noticed that your banner says Perky's not Perkins! 😂 Anyway, thx for the content, well done!
Aha - well spotted! 😂
So on the strength of this video - I ordered a set of creameys for my Ric 360 12 string - mainly because of all of the same issues you present. The high gains certainly have their place and didn't bother me on my 360 6 string - but I found that once you are talking about the 330 / 360 12 strings, the darkness/midrange becomes even more pronounced, and you do lose a LOT of that definitive Roger McGuinn / Tom Petty sparkle that really define that particular instrument.
The Rickenbacker 12 string is such a singularly unique instrument - it only does a couple of things - but it does those things spectacularly well, and no other instrument does it. One doesn't necessarily buy a Ric 12 string in service of doing something new - you get it to make That Sound - and in this context, the Creamery Toaster is the more direct path to it.
In my case - I ordered a Low 57 for the neck and a Mid 63 for the bridge. I will report back with results
Cheers. Jangle on!
Great to hear mate - Toasters definitely give more of the scoopy bright jangle; the high gains are a bit thick and thumpy in comparison.
Definitley the Toasters for me , they have way more clarity and dont sound as muffled as the High Gain
Creamery is far more jangly with a clean amp. I installed them in my 360.
En clean,las tostadoras y las altas ganancias me gustan por igual,pero con un poco de distorsión las tostadoras y el orange suena maravilloso.
Left handed Rickenbacker owners must be a fairly rare species...!
I note you used a Vox AC30, a Marshal JTM, and an Orange. Weirdly, my favourite amp to use is one brand/sound you didn't mention, it's actually my 74 Fender Pro Reverb - 40w Valve amp, which is known for being a fairly bright and clean sound.
We must stick together! 2002 Fireglo 330 Leftie owner signing in here!
You cant see it in my meme, but I have a 1971 360/6 Deluxe ( bought it new all those e years ago) and it came with "transitional" high gains, not the button top ones. Have gigged with it forever, but now you suggested it, it always has been more like a Tele sounding rather than the Rick "kerrang" I'd always come to expect from it. In a way it has worked out for the better it gives me more range sonically, is also lacking in other ways.. I have never measure the impedance of the pick ups, but pulled this from a Rick resource page " neck pup is 14.3K and bridge is 5.4. " I'm guessing that one was expected make liberal use of the blend knob..! To that end I have mused as to whether buying a set of vintage toasters and doing the capacitor trick will get me closer to that Johnny Marr/Paul Weller sound ... glad I stumbled on to your channel, interesting content! Cheers
Great comparison, never totally loved my Ric360 for a lot of the same reasons (the high gains just being too muddy or unclear on the top). I did really like when you engaged that HPF with the stock pickups though, that seemed to be a good balance between the two. Do you have somewhere that explains that in more detail?
This vid might be useful :-) ua-cam.com/video/k_NnyvLusj0/v-deo.html
You inspired me to get those knobs... idk if they're going on my 620 or my les paul
They're super cool :P Love the old Capri look!
I did prefer the Creamery toasters through the JTM45, really nails Mike Campbell's sound. Still, hi-gains have their place (The Jam, Ride, etc.). I've got toasters on a 360/6, but now I've got to get them on a 12-string.
I have found the need to release the pole pieces on my 4003 neck pickups and raise them substantially
They both sound good, I think Ricks high gain sound better than their own toasters but the Creamery have a slight edge.
I’m gonna stick my neck out here & risk getting flamed BUT despite creamery being great value for such high quality pick ups, I can’t help but think that with a bit of a EQing and setting up, a lot of pick ups would get VERY close to THAT sound (including the high gains?)
They sound just like Fender single coils to me in a very UNfender axe IMHO
I think that's true of many pickups. One doesn't always need new pickups or a new guitar.
I think, as the brightness from the replacement pickups is somewhat nice, I miss there some of the nosy midrange character from the originals.
So yeah - maybe just open up the amp a bit by eqing could turn out as a best of both worlds...?
@@ulyssestyler9685 I hope that’s the case!!
EBay’s recent seller sale (80% of fees) has encouraged me to really give a good long hard look at my “HERD“ and I’m knuckling down to the uncomfortable fact that I bought guitars, In the past, for a certain sound alone and not for ‘feel’ only to find that, with a bit of work on the amp knobs and Guitar Controls, I could pretty much get the same sound from an existing Guitar I already had anyway🫣
@@marcofioravanti4176 i’m only now beginning to realise this after so many years!
@BeesWaxMinder Although I think you are right about being able to use eq to change the character of pickups the way you want them, I will argue that you are better off starting with brighter/clearer pickups and using your eq to roll treble off and boost mids or whatever you want. Starting with dark muddy pickups and adding treble eq to brighten them up will also raise the noise floor significantly. The added bonus of starting with bright pickups and rolling off treble to taste is that you will actually lower the noise floor as you do so.
I have a 360/12 from the eighties, which has Hi Gains. I was not really happy with the balance of the two PUs, and when I measured the DC resistance I was surprised to find that the bridge PU had 6.62 kOhms and the neck PU had 14.58 (!) kOhms. So my first thought was that maybe the two PUs were mixed up during production. However, I found several articles on the web where other people had similar experiences. Seeing that your Ricky has PUs with almost identical resistance (and in no way near to either of mine) makes me wonder about the quality control at Rickenbacker. Do they have a proper procedure how to wind the PUs, or do they just wind them until they think, now it's enough? I considered swapping them out against toasters, but the price appeared to be a little high for my taste. So I decided to unwind my neck PU. In the end I ended up with 8.48 kOhm, and I left it that way. I am now much happier with the balance and the overall sound, there is always still the mix knob to adjust the balance of the two PUs. Just one word about unwinding the PUs: this is not a simple thing to do. They are wound with AWG 44 wire, which is about the tenth of a human hair in diameter. So unwinding a PU is a very delicate thing.
Thanks for the video, you did a great job and its very helpful.
I’m having a classic 330 from 2009 and wondering if i just could put toaster in the bridge (i like hi gain for the neck position).
Will toaster + hi gain combo work together in terms of different electrical characteristics?? (I’m sorry, little nooby about technical part)
Well...it would work in principal; though the hotter DC and darker sound of the HG might not balance well with the Toaster in the bridge; and you'd need to make sure the pickups are the same polarity else the middle position will be very quiet, thin and quacky....but yes, theoretically it could work.
Joe, thanks for your helpful answer, i guess i’m gonna try it why not🙂
@@maximnikitin8791 Yep - always fun to experiment 🙂
As someone who never cared for the Ric sound except when John Fogerty was using one, I can say the toasters definitely sound better. Even if you aren't going for the "brighter and thinner" tone, they sound better simply because of how clear they sound. The High Gain pickups sound muffled in comparison.
The dramtic differences in this vid are in part because the "blend" knob was not used.. IMO the high gain PUPs can sound as jangly as you like (volumes rolled back/blend knob adjusted) while providing some juice for higher gain tones. Alternatively vintage pickups can be be made warmer with a nice growl overdriven with mirror image adjustments. It's personal preference, but either way using the knobs, especially the "blend" knob is a key part of playing a Rick.
I get what you mean about toasters just sounding more Rickenbackerish. But do hang on to your Hi Gains in case you suddenly want to do a deep dive into some Steppenwolf! 🤣 (BTW....your guitar is super cool)
I'll take High Gains in the bridge position on my 330 everyday. A Toaster in the neck is nice, but I rarely use both pickups or solo the neck pickup.
So I bought a ‘63 Creamery for the neck only, keeping the high gain for the bridge (which I’ll be swapping out for the mastery). All this on a nice Cickenbacker 330 with oven knobs and a Bugby tremolo.
After searching for a Rick 12 string with the toasters for a while, I gave up after listening to some demos of the 12 with the HGs and setled for a lovely 360/ 12. I considered swapping the pick-ups for the vintage but after listening to some demos with the toasters, I'm starting to wonder if you loose too much in the mid range. I do notice subtle gains in the high range with the vintage style but for me, maybe not enough to go through the trouble. We'll see...🙂
Always fun to experiment :-) I much prefer the Toasters, but the High Gains are cool too :-)
This makes me wanna get the 350V63 with 3 Toasters over the 330 with 2 High Gains, even though the 330 is amazing and is 1/3 cheaper.
Out of interest, did you set up the amps so that the toasters sounded ‘right’ (I guess you did else why buy them?) and then use the high gains with the same settings? If you did, it would be equally interesting, and educational to hear the comparison with the amps set to bring out the best of the high gains
I've answered this in the Q&A video coming at midnight. But I actually shot the High Gain footage first & then did the swap to Toasters, so the amp was set for HGs. But that said, I probably did set it slightly darker than I typically would preempting the brightness of the Toasters. It's all a bit of a balancing act when making comparison videos like this!
The Toasters!!!! No doubt
@Joe Perkins
Dude you should be writing songs. Your rhythm abilities mandate it.
The world needs another Orzabal.
The '63 toasters sounded clearer. The Hi-Gains are muddy. Specially when considering the '63's sitting on a track among other instruments would be a shoe-in, the Hi-Gains the engineer would have to unravel all of the extra woofiness if at all possible.
That said I would've liked hearing the pickups in an original wiring guitar. IMO changing things in a circuit if one considers Dumble's "circuit constants" theory of changing things in a circuit away from the original schematic even unto things as wire length, gauge and where the wires were placed on a chassis, might alter the sound/response for when making comparisons.
Changing pots and switches moves away from the original circuit. The basics have a departure point for an easier reference. This way the pickups being the only change get to be viewed as the ONLY change.
I think there is a placebo effect at work when the example of the piece of equipment that you need to sound better is presented first. I'm not saying the toasters definitely do not sound better, but I'm also saying the order in which you put side by side comparisons together matter.
The first clip of the first playing example is the High Gains, not the Toasters. But despite that, something has to come first & I tend to do the clips at random - with 3 sections and 2 pickup sets, something has to come first once more than the other!
I’m wondering if it is worth changing my pots to 250k/500k or just leave the 330k all round setup before installing my Creamery toasters? Joe seems to say 250/500 is even darker than 330k all round.
Unless you’re going for full vintage accuracy, I wouldn’t worry about changing them 👍
Sound almost the same to me.
You can't go wrong with Creamery pickups. I don't think the guy is able to produce anything less than stellar.
The High Gains have more of an acoustic hollowbody sound, while the Creamery 63's toaster top have more edge. Not only does the Ric sound better with the Creamery pickups, but I'll bet a Jazzmaster would sound better with them! How much modding do you have to do to drop them in a Jazzmaster XXII?
Probably quite a bit tbh!!
Probably quite a bit tbh!!
Probably quite a bit tbh!!
I have a Ric 620, solid body with high gains and this video isn’t helping to dissuade me of my thinking that I also need a 360 with toasters 😂.
bravissimo
Toasters win out by a mile!
Doesn't one swap out then in? Rather, doesn't one simply "swap"? Really good demo though.
Words aren't my strong point :P
FWIW I almost prefer toasters to high gains.
Which proves that 90% of the "Rickenbacker sound" was the pickups all along. The reason Rickenbacker switched to high gain single coils WAS to get more like a Tele sound, because the market was leaving Rickenbacker behind. This "unauthentic" Ricky tone, actually saved the brand. Out of 50-60 million guitar players, there may be 1-2 thousand who play historically correct Beatles and Birds music, but 30 million (if not more) who play the "tele tone", from country to rock and roll. I personally think Rickenbacker just pissed of their fan base to sell a few guitars that are now collecting dust next to the two humbucker Teles.
Even John Fogerty installed a real humbucker in the bridge position on his 325. Jangle isn't everything.
T O A S T!
Toasters!
Toasters
If the neck pickup is too loud for the bridge in the middle position, turn it down! You have independent controls there.
Hi gains sound muddier to me.
Thanks for the great vids. Sure the original RIC Toasters are 500 GBP (about 600 USD or 900 AUD). But they are ORIGINAL Rickenbacker pickups. Putting third party pickups into any guitar reduces the authenticity of the guitar regardless of the tone. Afaic, putting third party pickups into a Rickenbacker borders on blasphemy, especially when one can purchase the genuine pickups from the manufacturer. Rickenbacker guitars are expensive enough as they are. Why cheapen your beautiful work of art by replacing original bits with third party ones? Sometimes price should never be the main consideration. Cheers from the Land Down Under.
Given that they can't even make us a left handed "R" tailpiece for the price point of these instruments, I'm less concerned with using "genuine" Rickenbacker parts and more concerned with getting myself the most authentic 60's tone I can. Just because they're £500 and ship from Rickenbacker doesn't _necessarily_ mean they're in any way better than Toasters made by other people - let alone those offering unpotted/potted options, matched DC resistances, different (vintage correct) 'eras' of wind, etc. Just because something doesn't say 'Genuine Rickenbacker' on it doesn't mean it's not equally - or more - valid for some people...but that's why we're all individual and can make our own choices. 🙂
No, the main consideration should be being happy with the pickups. If you’re not happy with your tone, change the pickups and keep the originals for if/when you want to sell the guitar. FWIW Rick pickups vary just as much as any other manufacturers, I know from experience (have had well over 20 Ric basses and love them to bits). If you aren’t happy with the pickups why would you want to keep them just because they “belong” in the guitar, when you can get custom wounds (or indeed get the originals rewound) and be happier?