Lincoln MKVIII Super Coupe Timing Nightmare gets worse. 4.6 4V Ford Modular V8
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- Опубліковано 24 чер 2021
- And now, for the exciting conclusion of the Lincoln Super Coupe nightmare! In the previous episode you saw us begin this process to do a timing job on Craig's 1995 Lincoln MVKIII, well we ended that one right where this one begins with the split crank pulley.
For a bit of back story Craig was hearing a rattling from the timing set on his 4.6 4V and so purchased an entire Cloyes timing set to do the job. Unfortunately timing for us was pretty terrible as we are BURIED in projects so since it was "just a timing job" we all agreed it could go to a dealership comfortable with this kind of repair. After some phone calls a local Ford dealer confirmed they had a technician trained and capable in the job and willing to take it on, so the vehicle was driven over and dropped off.
After the vehicle sat for a week waiting for the job to begin Craig's Lincoln was finally pulled in and the disassembly begun. Unfortunately after a few hours taking the valve covers and accessories off the car the technician decided to then pull the oil out of the car. At this point the situation went very very sideways.
Craig received a phone call from the dealership informing him that there was a ton of material in his motor, more than they had ever seen before, and that he would need a new engine. A "new engine" was then quoted to the tune of approx $8,000, after the vehicle was driven to the dealership and in with an expected bill somewhere around $2,000 all told.
Our portion of this story began there. The vehicle was towed to us in a semi disassembled state, with an almost empty oil pan and a dry never used oil filter. We have no way of verifying good or bad the state of this engine so we either go backwards put the car back together as is and see what's what, or move forward with the timing set replacement then fire the motor up and see what the situation truly is.
The end result is extremely confusing, frustrating, and very VERY frustrating. These cars are rather unique, they share a platform with the 4.6 4V Mustang Cobra of the same generation but almost nothing else. The timing set is far more complicated than the 4.6 2V motors, even requiring a special tool to be done correctly which as we called around not a SINGLE Ford Dealership had the tool for. Unfortunately when you are working on the weird/interesting/rare/unique rides as we often do, challenges pop up.
Lucore Automotive is a small independent American small business located just outside Columbus Ohio. While we are a full service shop that maintains and repairs countless daily drivers we are also well known for our work on classics, race cars, and collector cars.
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We promise to share the good the bad and the ugly, this case... getting way more of the latter. Thanks everyone for being here watching these videos and supporting a small local shop!
I don't even wear pants when I support the channel 😁
@@unclesquirrel6951 What better way to show support!
I am glad we had the tool and all I was doing was helping to do assembly after rebuild, the machine shop didn't want to do this. The engine is still doing well. several years and over 100k on the clock.
They are complicated, like my last wife. I love them, they make good sounds and lots of power for their displacement.
I dont have a MKVIII but I do have a 03 Mach 1 with the same engine design just watching different videos on the 4.6 engines before I dive into mine with some forged internal parts. Thanks for the info
I was on the prototype team that built the first 4.6 4V engines we had to do cam events on the first 50 or so engines using a degree wheel and dial indicators...one of the biggest pain in the ass design Ford came up with
Lots of early 4v did not get keys. They rely on the torque on the cam bolts to hold them in place. The early 4v also uses 12mm cam bolts. 99-04 4v uses integral keys on the cam sprockets and a smaller 10mm cam bolts. Whenever i do any cam work on these, i remove all of the roller followers. This ensures that the valves all stay closed, and also prevents fighting valve spring pressure turning cams. There is also an issue with thin/thick crank gears, and thin/thick trigger wheel.
That was way beyond my expertise. Back in the day I was able to work on a Swiss watch with a 16 pound sledgehammer. Now days finding the keys is a challenge. lol. The videos are cool.
This one gets pretty deep into the details but something we wanted to share with you all plus anyone else who may be interested in doing this kind of job themselves. Also...
There are some pretty serious unanswered questions on what exactly is going on here and what caused the failure. We're really hoping to figure that out and get some opinions/thoughts
You have the patience of a saint sir because the air compressor bracket would drive me bonkers! Keep up the great work!
All that work, and the engine greets you with a knock after it comes back to life. Awesome. Well, let's see what this rod knock could be telling you. You installed new cam gears, crank gear, chains and tensioners. All this of course put the valve train in a more stable, and correct timing position. Better valve train timing, means more cylinder pressure. More cylinder pressure leads to a higher load to the connecting rods. Which tells me, the engine is now crying out as it "knocks" for help. Sounds like someone has to make a decision. By the way, I enjoy your videos.
Well thank you very much for watching enjoying and commenting, we appreciate it! This one is a pretty dry but drama filled video, really glad people are giving it some thought and speaking up.
It's certainly a curious situation for sure, there's a few key pieces we just can't answer unfortunately. It's POSSIBLE getting the motor back into proper time/compression put the final stress on a weakness but that would be odd.. also odd it only seems to be coming from a single cylinder.
Considered maybe WE messed up getting it timed correctly and it was valves we were hearing... but pretty dang sure that's not a valve sound! 😞
Oh my back would be over after that repair
Great vid thanks.
Thanks for watching and commenting! We know this is more educational than entertaining but thought it was still important to share!
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing for sure. Love the detail.
@@totalyep tried to edit it down as much as we could but still include all the important bits. Glad to hear it's at least semi watchable 😀
Man sorry to hear that my buddy had a 2000 maroon one almost identical drove through water puddle sucked up water broke two Pistons or the rods with all the plugs out and roll over and make crunching noises some engines are really good but if anything goes wrong it's never good I feel bad for you wow you guys at least you tried your hardest that's what counts! 💯👍
Some "Lot Porter" took that Mark out and rodded the piss out of it then parked it.
There's a greater than zero chance of that unfortunately, however also basically impossible to prove :(
It’s interesting that Ford went the overhead cam route and GM stayed with pushrods.
It's a fun argument to have for sure. Clearly when Ford decided pushrods were old tech and dead, they weren't EXACTLY correct! ;)
Chevy went the cheaper route that’s all it came down to they were not doing as well as Ford and couldn’t afford to go high tech but they seem to be doing just fine with pushrod motors even fords big bear the Godzilla their brand new motor has gone back to pushrod tech so maybe Chevy was right all along but you Gotta keep in mind as far as power per cubic inch nothing beats Fords coyote so I guess it just comes down to personal preference and how much you actually enjoy messing with timing systems and multiple cans and spending money on head work when you want to go all out with an engine that’s why so many mustangs have LS motors in them it’s just the cheapest way to get power
Lucas oil additive
Lol! A lil Lucas, some Seafoam and she's good to go!
It is a 1995, apparently it is the one year that is known to break valve springs. Just throwing that idea out there.
If it does end up being rod knock, I would blame it on negligent oil change intervals. Which would correlate to the timing chain noise (the tensioner works in conjunction with the oil pressure). (Just my .02)
Doesn't seem to SOUND like a valve issue though that's almost 99% assuredly a rod knock issue. Also, this isn't the noise it was making when it was taken in...
@@ninevoltmodz4687 If we didn't know the owner VERY well we would be onboard with pointing the finger at improper or poorly timed oil changes. However knowing this guy and that this Lincoln is/was his baby... that's really really hard to believe.
What's your take on the keyway issue, how would you imagine that happening?
I think we all know what happened, even if you can't come right out and say it. Something sketchy went down at the shop that had it before you.
As far as the key way goes, is that a known issue with those engines? Also, I believe you mentioned that on the inner sprocket, only half of it was engaged with the Woodruff key. If that was the case, then all that torque from the engine running would be centered on that small section of the key and may have caused it to sheer? Perhaps that goes back to whenever the harmonic balancer was changed and not installed properly?
We would like to imagine that it's NOT something sketchy or nefarious that happened at the previous shop, pointing fingers isn't our style. Just trying to work our minds around the issue to figure something else out though... if it had a rod knock, as this did as SOON as it fired up again, why would a shop even begin a timing job process? As soon as it was pulled in that sound would be obvious. Where was the oil filter we were told was in the car for inspection? With "tons of material" in the pan, there would be some serious evidence in the filter element.. just really really frustrating and confusing.
With the woodruff key situation, that's a curious one for sure you almost never see those things broken unless something way beyond stock is acting on them. The design of the crank gear was certainly less than optimal with only half of the "inner gear" engaging which certainly could cause some awkward sheering force. The fact that it still RAN fine enough to drive it back home then to the other shop is kind of astounding, that drivers side bank had at least 20-30 degrees of play in it...
Unfortunately way more questions than answers on this one
I could tell in the first 5 minutes that you've never touched a 4v Ford motor.
Personally I blame squirrels
Not sure who or WHAT is at blame in this one, you tell us. Was it squirrels?
@@LucoreAuto BIG squirrels
Ooops, someone screwed the pouch, on that motor, maybe someone took it for a test drive before you got it
SOMETHING is odd here for sure, one of the main reasons we put this video together and put it out there. It just doesn't make sense any way you look at it.
@@LucoreAuto someone else is playing kitty 😺in the litter box
@@leonardwalters154 something screwy is happening/happened for sure, just very hard to know WHAT. 😞
Sounds like you guys got struck with some other shops major screw up. Good luck luck with this clusterf**ck guys.
JMB
Unfortunately we kind of have the reputation for fixing the hard or complicated stuff, if you haven't noticed that yet ;) This one.. yeah this one's a kick in the gut for sure. Did NOT have this in our plans!
This CONFIRMS why I've never been a Ford fan. Or owned one for very long. Its as if there engineering department had a contest to see how unnecessarily complicated someone could make something that actually ran. And then sold it to unsuspecting customers. Just like there latest V-6 Twin turbo engines in there light duty (F-150) trucks. That seem to repeatedly keep puking turbos and manifolds. And Ford has absolutely NO answer to this problem. ☠☠☠☠
We DO love some Ford power for sure and enjoy them but you have a point there are a few things that drive you absolutely nuts about them. Whether it's known weakness after known weakness in the Powerstroke diesel line or overly complicated gas powered V8s 😕
Keep in mind this was also the period in which most of the American automotive community was trying to find semi decent power. The mid 90s were still a pretty low power per inch time period.
Your point on the TT f150s is very VERY accurate, we've done more than a few repairs like you're stating with even more being punted once the customer knows the repair cost
Maybe they drained the oil and started so they could just replace it instead of a tear down. Also they would not want to look like a liar if it didn’t need a engine since it was going to another shop after them
Your thinking is certainly along a line we have considered as well, unfortunately we really have no way to prove or disprove that. We would also REALLY like to believe that NO shop would do that to someone. Unfortunately if we are being honest though our industry struggles with issues of trust all the time 😞
Sounds just like rod knock to me.
Yes it does... now the really interesting question which we pose at the end is... how does a timing job cause that? Or... how would you explain it being there when it wasn't before?
@@LucoreAuto Agree, it was empty of oil, so it's possible someone fired it up? Hard to say but there might be some glitter in the filter now?
Seems the motor has to come out regardless, is the plan to have another built or rebuild this one?
I don"t see people mention it often at all but in the case of a spun rod bearing, I'm used to seeing a mechanical pressure gauge jumping around abnormally, pulsating as the crank spins.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 There are several unanswered questions, that being one of them. Unfortunately there's also essentially no way to know for SURE exactly what happened/caused any of these issues.
The owner who you see at the end of this video does most if not all of his own oil changes and is pretty meticulous about it. Especially with this car it's kind of his baby. So... dunno hard to say.
The motor will be coming out for sure and going through a diagnostic teardown to see what's good what's bad and hopefully get some ideas on what happened.
There's also the question of that keyway issue! :(
@@LucoreAuto I'm convinced the keyway issue is solved by the single piece gear and properly torqueing the damper. The keyway isn't intended for keeping the gear in place anyway, it's the damper torque that does that.
it seems like every car you work on turns into a piece of shit after you work on it LOL
It certainly seems that way! Either we suck, we're cursed, or we only get the hard annoying stuff!
@@LucoreAuto I think you guys only get the hard annoying stuff
@@kmonroe5785 we certainly have that reputation ;)