7:45 High Power handling loudspeakers will typically utilize capacitors with > 100V rating. 8:39 Toroidal iron-core inductors offer very high power handling and a more compact design, often making them more practical than air-core equivalents. 10:48 Ferrite core inductors offer higher inductance in a smaller size, while steel laminate inductors reduce core losses but are larger and better suited for high-power loudspeaker crossovers.
19:00 Those inductors are too close together and will have some unwanted parasitic crosstalk. For "Cost No Object" performance, I would not compromise by non optimum parts placement by the restricted "too tight" crossover layouts shown there.
@@Audioholics Very low series resistance offered by toroidal inductors is also worth a mention. 12/15mH, 4/5" diameter affairs achieve values of 100mΩ, which only marginally affects driver's Q and efficiency. Equivalent air core inductors would be the size of an oil drum with this combination of high inductance and low Rdc.
Good presentation. I rebuild a lot of vintage speaker crossovers. Yes, I remove the cheap/aging caps, low quality resistors and iron core inductors from and replace everything, usually going all poly caps, audio grade wire wound resistors and 18 ga. minimum air core inductors. Sometimes the customer wants a less expensive "fix" so I am not averse to using an electrolytic cap in parallel with the woofer or a good grade iron core inductor in parallel with the tweeter because that component is filtering out to ground, not going to the speaker. I also use the old JBL "trick" of adding a .01 uF bypass cap (connected in parallel) on the in series caps of the tweeter and mid range drivers. For example, if the circuit calls for a 5 uF cap, I connect the .01 uF bypass cap to the 5 uF cap in parallel, making the value of that filter 5.01uF. I think it helps with clarity and crispness of sound. Quality of parts also matters. I did a total mod/rebuilt on a pair of Klipsch RF7's for $300. He asked, when I gave him the estimate, "is that the highest quality parts you can get?" Um, no, so I gave him an estimate for the highest quality parts available and the rebuild for the caps alone was $500, for one speaker. He opted for the $300 rebuild and is extremely please with the results. Cheers!
@ammodude curious about crossover upgrade for 30 yr old Velodyne DF 661's. From research, I know the design team built an upgrade, but it was abandoned due to the overall cost of the speaker. They still sound good. I would like to have the discussion with you if I could.
I dont have to much to say about crossovers, but I just want to give a compliment - Your experience and knowledge for all things audio and the way you verbalize and present it all to us all are just top notch! You have a way of saying the things and details I actually wonder about, that not all youtube creators within the audio world do. Also, i.m.o. the most trustworthy one out there. Love your work, Gene.
Gene, thank you for linking to our Fundraiser. Any opportunity to get more eyeballs on it to help people in need is appreciated! You and Berta stay safe.
YES! I'm Very Interested in a deeper dive. I think that if your speaker has good flat response with cheap crossover components then a like for like upgrade makes perfect sense. If the response is messed up then it really needs a better design. If the speaker sounds nice but you want more detail in the reproduction then upgrading parts makes total sense. I did a like for like upgrade on my 1978 Technics SB-X50's and it is absolutely amazing in the detail and imaging.
I wasn't sure at first if better parts even mattered but, I was willing to try anything because my Cerwin Vega D9s sounded pretty muffled in the mids and highs. So, I removed and replaced the sand-cast resistors with "Mills" resistors, replaced inductors with thicker strands, replaced electrolytic caps with polypropylene, removed all ferromagnetic material except in the potentiometers, and replaced rear binding post with 5-way ofc post. The speakers are no longer muffled. The mids and highs became nicely detailed, and the sound stage is beautiful with increased stereo separation. I've done 5 sets of my other speakers since then, and haven't been disappointed on any of them...seriously!
For myself yeah it made a difference and was worth it. I love to learn and get hands on my audio gear. So I took out the factory crossover in my speakers and made a copy of it as an external xo so I don’t ruin the original xo. Mind you I measured all the parts to make sure the replacements I got were the exact same and also contacted the manufacturer to make sure the values were accurate. It made a difference but I think that is because I used better tolerance parts. The air core inductors did make a difference from the iron cores in the factory xo. I then re designed the crossover after I took months learning how to take quasi anechoic measurements. After a few iterations and help from pros, I made a phase coherent xo with 4th order crossovers which really made a difference. It’s all completely reversible and was some of the best fun I’ve ever had. I would like to see some more scientific experiments on if people can hear the differences in capacitors in crossovers. I did it myself with using clips in my xo and I could hear some diff. But I didn’t do it double blind. But it would be nice to see if , with all things being equal, the caps capacitance and resistance being equal if there is a diff in sound. By changing them out with clips. Cheers! Great vids. Mind you my speakers weren’t cheap! Lol
@@AndrewB23 I did like them. Pardon I thought I explained that. The speakers I have I liked , but were also a means to learn and have fun. So that increased their value for me. If I just got another pair of speakers I wouldn’t have learned a thing and had fun. It also gave me a much better measuring and sounding pair of speakers. I could buy a better pair, but I want to build my own. Because once again that will offer me an awesome experience in both learning and the end result. Also, I think I mentioned that I can put these back to stock and sell them if I want. Nothing has been altered in a way to spoil the original xo. Hope that made more sense
@@Nightjar726I couldn’t agree with you more! I also had a blast replacing my crossovers with higher quality parts equal value. It’s so nice bringing the best out of your speakers
@@JR-ho5qm yeah, you just have to pay attention to the values and DCR and do some measurements to make sure things are good. A newly designed crossover take more work of course. But I started with just copying the existing crossover. Good deal man
YES go deeper, get technical, bring on guests. This topic greatly interests me. I appreciate GR's channel and I think he has great products. Sometimes he redesigns a crossover, i.e. he uses different values, so in that case obviously it can make a huge difference. As for parts quality, I remain somewhat skeptical, but my assumption would be that it can make a small but noticeable difference up to a point... like, moderately good parts are better than super cheap crap... but exotic parts over moderately good ones? I'm not sure. I don't believe in cables like he does, or his tube connectors vs quality binding posts made of a good material, so I think I remain objective but am open to there being actual differences that perhaps we can explain and quantify.
@@Artcore103 agreed, especially about cables. I will bring on actual design engineers to discuss this topic in further detail if the video response is good. Thanks
@@Artcore103 yeah Danny obviously knows what he is doing. But he omits obvious details which more knowledgeable people know, such as parts tolerances and values. It’s not just about ‘ cheesy parts’ as he says. And from messing around making my own crossover , you can’t really hear some things even if they are visually bad in measurements. While other things we can hear, which we can see in measurements. Such as phase. Having the crossover areas be phase coherent is important. But not immediately apparent to an average listener. It’s more apparent while listening off axis and makes the sweet spot larger and more forgiving.
This is not a question for me anymore. I upgraded my 30 year old cheap speakers crossover and terminals in one speaker first and played them together, the difference was astonishing. After upgrading both speakers my newly purchased speakers went back into their box !
I've seen KEF Q Series speakers rated at 4 ohms but dipping to 1.9 ohms at 1800 kh - I've been informed these series from KEF are manufactured in China, whereas the Reference series are manufactured in the UK
My two cents: a properly designed crossover with cheap parts will far outweigh a poor design with great parts. But I will say a great design with great parts is really magical. I've AB tested plenty and I stand by my comment.
Yes indeed! The design must be great or nothing will sound right. Quality parts can made a good design a bit better. The problem is there are many design issues to resolve in any design and your "upgrade" might made things worse. You might change tonal balance, phase issues, time alignment and who knows what else. Then.... who can you trust thay actually knows what doing as well as what the original design engineer was trying to accomplish????
@@memcdm I understand your skepticism but you're overthinking it. If you start with a great design then upgrade the parts you're not magically changing phase, tonal balance, or time alignment. If you disagree, back up your claim with measurements. I just haven't seen it. In my experience, better parts don't change the frequency response drastically (at worst it might be 0.5dB more efficient in some spots), but it improves distortion characteristics and impulse response. This translates to better transients and more naturalness that you'd expect from a Hi-Fi speaker. Once we can agree there, then we can talk about some real fun stuff that can't be measured like texture, imaging, and soundstage characteristics.
Been designing crossovers for the past decade or so (both 2- and 3-way designs). Parts absolutely do matter for squeezing out the best sound possible. However, those good parts won't fix poor execution. (The Tangent TM-1 comes to mind here.) Side note, impedance is very, very underrated in loudspeaker design. Poor impedance = poor phase control = poor linearity.
Parts do matter. Since our audio memory is so short, you have to do an A/B blind test to confirm it. My son and I bought two pairs of the Sony SS SCS5 and upgraded one set with the GR Research kit (sonicaps) and left the other stock. The difference was night and day in A/B comparison. But even the stock Sony's sound good with their cheap parts. Bottom line is, audio is not like cars, or colors. We have limited ability to remember sound and if you are happy with your sand resistors and electrolytic caps, roll with it. But if you want the best your drivers have to offer, upgrade the parts and have fun doing it. Don't need to argue either vantage. That's the hobby man.
As always great video, Gene! I wanted to perform my own anecdotal test on my JBL Studio 630s to see if upgrading the crossover parts really made a big difference in sound. I spent a little over $200 on new parts and was blown away by the differences in sound quality. I was even able to capture the sound differences between the stock and modified speaker on my youtube channel. Bass was tighter, better controlled, and much clearer. The tweeter had much better clarity and dimension. I also tried different brands of poly caps like Mundorf, ClarityCap, Dayton Audio and noticed there comes a point where you reach diminishing returns. Have you ever thought about doing a series on designing crossovers?
I'm a DIY guy, bought a DIY kit from Amazon - HiVi Swans 2.2A - 2 way bookshelf speakers (w/ Dynaudio drivers) and holy molly do parts matter! Cheap parts like described in the video are there to get it out the door to customers and have it sound decent, but not amazing. Sandcast resistors sound shrill in comparison to Mills resistors and even swapping out air core inductors for thicker gauge air core inductors makes the drivers sound more dynamic, clean/tactile and obviously louder due to lower resistance. So using REW and a calibrated mic is a must. I learned that a flat frequency response (FR) does not always sound great. If a speaker is using cheap parts and has a flat FR +/- 1 dB, it will NEVER have the dynamics, clarity and drive/power as higher quality parts would make it. Just my observation on messing around with my DIY bookshelves for the past year and a half with a cal. mic. I'm finishing it up now, but in the process I wired the tweeter to 1 set of binding posts and the woofer to another and have an active passive crossover outside to try out and swap parts on the fly for testing and listening... that's how you can hear the changes and make changes quickly ;) Danny Richie is a great YT channel to check out, but still need to watch others that actually explain how to do it, if you want to DIY ;) I also ended up swapping out the silk dome tweeters for some High-Res ribbon tweeters and it's crazy clear and pin point accurate now. Some HiFi enthusiasts would be jealous of this $250 pair of bookshelves with $250 worth of high quality parts in it. I considered buying the new SVS Evolution center channel, until I saw what's inside, and I would rather just build one now. But that doesn't mean there's no place for those - just click buy and it's yours, no DIY. But is it HiFi? 🙃
It’s surprising that Andrew Robinson has double the subscribers. This was a much better explanation than what Andrew and his wife offered up on this topic.
He's not a technical review channel so he's not trying to give details on crossovers. His basic premise is sound though. If you like the way your speakers sound then it really doesn't matter what parts were used. Could they be even better? Maybe but you would have paid more and most people settle on any product because it fits into their idea of value for the money. All this academic discussion online doesn't cost a dime. Making a better crossover usually requires better drivers and more sound cabinet design to be worth the upgrade. It's a ripple effect and most don't care so why pay more? If everyone pretending this was such a big deal was actually chomping at the bit to spend another coupe thousand for better crossover parts manufacturers would include them and advertise the fact. But all most folks are doing is running their mouth, not their credit cards, so they don't matter.
I just wanted to weigh in here on upgrading speakers. I recently purchased an upgrade for my klipsch rp-280f, which uses the same crossover as the rp-8000, i believe. It was a lot of work, but after i finished them, it was mind-blowing how much better they sound. It was a gr research kit they really know their stuff! Now i want to do all my speakers.... eventually. Gene i just want to thank you for doing this video. Maybe we can have a breakthrough for some of these nay sayers and speaker companies should be taking notes. I didn't have a lot in my speakers the upgrade was about the same price and I'm very happy now.
Great video! I’m a DIY guy and indeed, crossovers matter! You should have a talk with Danny, i’m pretty sure you’ll end up having great talk, great food and allot of fun!
Good topic, if you’ve watched his videos, many are more than just crossover upgrades he actually fixes response and in some cases impedance and resonances. Crossovers are redesigned. Where speakers are designed very well, look at the Polk LSiM 703 video as an example, all he does is put in better replacement components without altering the design.
Gene crazy you brought up this topic as I was just reading your article on this yesterday. I'm currently debating modifying a speaker crossover that uses iron core inductors in the tweeter crossover.
As a cobbler of speaker sets, I cobble together sets of towers from various used marketplaces. I use a multi color sticker sheet to label them so I can discern what pairs came along together. That way if one set was worn out or abused I can weed them out together, or pair them with their kin which have the same degree of use, hoping they mechanically loosened together at the same rate. Or that the manufacturer paired them based on their variance, like matched pairs of tubes. I’ve been meaning to get some kind of testing gear to help match pairs and detect discrepancies and bad-apples. When having many of the same speaker, and following the philosophy of pursuing identical timbral matching, one naturally thinks on upgrading all of their crossovers together to bring them into even closer tolerances. Cobbling sets together like this is easier with budget speakers, because there’s simply more of them in the marketplace. Lending them to upgrade potential, and a home hobby assembly line of soldering in a new capacitor. But dropping in a whole new board is rather appealing. I feel that the engineers finely tune crossovers to the resonant character of the drivers, so I’m skeptical of any mod being a net benefit, but I also feel that if the capacitor was lower resistance and the tweeter became louder, that the room correction software would account for that, while also having the benefits of lower resistance with crisper transients and micro dynamics. Sean Casey’s Zu speakers take a philosophy of having very high sensitivity and minimalistic crossovers with sometimes 1 or 2 parts. So a lower resistance crossover may play into that same philosophy in a way that some people prefer. But it’s hard to tell how much damping in the crossover is there to tame driver resonances. One benefit of the Infinity Primus, is they have anodized constrained layer damping CMD like the CMMD Beta series much like modern Revels and I suspect like RBH’s aluminum cones have too. So the cones themselves have allot of inherent damping of resonances, which maybe would lend themselves to running loose with a more permissive crossover. Exotic Material science has always been a fun consideration for me, but most companies have similar philosophies and engineering goals in respect to weight and damping, but still fun to think about, especially when a speaker pursues an alternative design philosophy or has something truly exceptional.
I added Jupiter bypass caps to the tweeter section of my Elac Adanté F61 towers. Wow! Even the non-audio-geeks in the house asked what I'd done. Thankfully, it cost significantly less than $100. On my Seas Braggi MTM standmounts, the crossovers use Miflex caps in-series, Mundorf's best resisters in-series and Goertz copper foil inductors in series for the mid-woofer. All the rest of the parts are Solen (caps and coils) and Munforf's regular-grade resistors. The speakers are surprising transparent and have a high end that I didn't believe possible given it's metal dome tweeter which sounds more like a high-end soft dome.
Excellent information. I usually upgrade crossovers on most speakers It's just a passion and an obsession. I am a DIY and just started to upgrade the inductors. Keep adding more information on crossover parts and comment on brands
I won't defend the usage of exotic/snake oil cables IF the claim is "improved fidelity". I do like audio jewelry when the cables are designed properly and do no harm to the signal.
Danny crushed it with the upgrade for my Klipsch rp600m's - the first version. Bought them as the result of the youtube reviewer hype train and wasn't impressed. His upgrade was a game changer for those speakers in particular.
@@sagi_tech_n_stuff if you watched Danny's video (I'm guessing you didn't) correcting the phase integration between drivers alone will cause a drastic improvement. Klipsch's original design was abysmal and had a huge null at the crossover point. That alone is a game changer and that's just one aspect of the upgrade. It only gets better from there.
@@crazydwarfer Danny sells a revised crossover with real differences, then says that it's the parts quality that makes the difference, and people buy it. You could get most of the benefits with cheaper parts imo. But I guess that's not good for business
I have a pair of Celestion Ditton 551 that I love. Next year I’ll be putting some money into them, more than they’re worth, because they’re worth it to me to maintain. Beautiful speakers should live forever!
Gene thanks for the video. Please continue to go deep on this topic. It would be great to have you or James do a before the upgrade and after the upgrade review. I’ve seen Danny’s videos and some of the measurements aren’t that different after the upgrade. Would appreciate you sharing your feedback from listening to the changes vs. just measurements. How it sounds is more important to me than how it measures. Looking forward to your follow up.
Danny helped me with my crossovers for my CerwinVega! Speakers. They are a modern model so they have quite a few parts in them. Not like the Vegas from the 70s. Mentioned in this video. lol! I just did point to point wired with higher quality level matched equal value parts and also eliminated the fuse path and the results are fantastic! I also have to say the project was extremely fun and really took my passion for audio to another level. I’m currently anxiously waiting for a new speaker to come to market so I can do it all over again. It’s so cool knowing you are getting the best out of your speakers. I’m looking forward to more of this content. Gene it would probably work best if you sent Danny a speaker he could measure and send you the parts to upgrade, and you could evaluate and give us your thoughts. 👍🏻🔈
The Cerwin Vega's I mentioned in this video where from the 1980s. The Model was the D-2. I should probably be more kind to them as I was in love with those woofers back in the day. They gave me a year or two of solid bass and decent sound until I got the upgrade bug and the rest was history ;)
@@Audioholics right on! CerwinVega! Got me into audio in the 90s. That’s why I still have a pair and decided to make them as good as I could. It took good crossovers and lots of dampening. They responded well to the modifications and now are a really fun speaker. 👍🏻
@@JR-ho5qm As a teenager, I drooled over a pair of AT-12s. I would honestly love to get a set in and tweak them and give a good listen. I'd put some no-res in the cabinets, and work on those crossovers to replace the junk parts and control the woofer break up modes.
@@Audioholics haha! I was going to say that would be great content for the channel. I would recommend either the At12 or VS120 or even the AT15 or VS150. They are much better bones to start with compared to your older 2 way horn jobbie. I think you should do it! For old time sakes! Find a really nice pair and go with it. The No-Rez helps lots along with some bracing. I also made granite slabs with Sorbothane for the speakers to sit on. The bass now is actually pretty good quality. Lots of fun! I hope you do it!
Danny has an open invite best I remember for exactly that. He was welcoming anyone of interest to come by and go through such comparisons. I'm sure it depends on timing of speakers that came in.
Yea it's a nice offer but I only travel when absolutely necessary due to schedule and taking care of family. The door is always open on my end for product sample submissions though.
Outstanding video, Gene! Spot on with recommendations and references. More YT Influencers should be as honest and as thorough as you. Danny at GR Research is another high integrity person to refer to.
I have not ventured into the land of measurements much yet, but I see that it can be useful when treating rooms. Anyway, I have done an upgrade for a pair of klipsch RP600 M MkI that Danny Richie engineered the crossover for. The my impression at first listen was that it sounded like the volume was lower. It might also be the case as the impedance was lower after the upgrade, but after some months of listening I can confirm that it was the correct choice for me. Many might say that the original sound of the speaker was demolished in the process and it does not sound like a klipsch anymore. Well, one thing is for sure: I can now listen to it at a high volume for more than 15 minutes. Before it felt like my ears had been at a concert, and I had listening fatigue. The sound overall sounded a lot more quiet. By that I mean there must have been a lot more distortion than what I initially thought before the upgrade. I essentially bought the upgrade cause reviews of them gave me the impression that the sound would cover the sound-spectre properly as the original sound from the speakers was not only overly bright, but guitars in my metal music always sounded like they were in the back row. I was correct, and now the speakers show me all the instruments and sounds in the correct space. (I base this on having used a headset a lot) Since then I have moved on to GR's own speakers, and it has just gotten better, and I have also treated my room and upgraded the stereo system, and the speakers just keep on giving. I acknowledge that speaker manufacturers often put their own signature sound in speakers, which can be fun, but can also be damaging to some music. I can at least confirm that no music on these speakers sound bad. They work with all recordings good and bad. After getting more listening sound and working more on placement and acoustics, I also noticed that these speakers have a lot more details and can make a wall of sound rather than just coming from the speakers. So it feels familiar with many of the things you mention in this video. All in all, I do think parts matter, but there is a point when you need a more trained ear to pick up on the differences. But there are also some things that you can hear instantly. Many say that sound is subjective, but I think it also has a lot to do with what you can hear and how trained your ears are. Some that care only about vocals might not notice guitars being further back for instance, and som may only listen to classical music, and therefore not ever notice what a speaker can not do as they are only playing things that sound good in a certain spectre of music. Anyway, I can keep going on and on with experiences and conclusions made over the years, but I fully support upgrades. I do admit that some speakers may not need it as the fun part about them might be gone after, but in GR's defence, it will undoubtedly not be bad, and you might get some extra features that you can only get with more expensive speakers. Just as long as you know what to listen for.
Gene, one thing you could've mentioned too about the premier example of a good crossover @19:28, is look at the direction the inductors face. On the woofer, they are all orthogonal to each other (X,Y,Z), so this prevents the inductor's magnetic fields from coupling together. On the mid range crossover they don't do this as much in the Z direction, but every inductor is orthogonal to its neighbor facing X,Y,X,Y...
Excellent show Gene, as I spend a considerable time on my education and journey. The crossovers are something I learned back in car audio days and has served me well. I think if your speaker manufacturer has an anechoic chamber, they are a quality driven company and the consumer can relax just a bit. These Spinoramas continue to make manufacturers shine. They seem to reveal who can make excellent speakers. I’m less worried than in the early 90’s.😂😂
Quality parts absolutely matter as Gene said, that’s really a no brainer but each person has to judge for themselves wether it’s cost effective to upgrade the guts or if you really don’t like the speakers enough that it’s time to sell them and move on. As for me, I ALWAYS go a lil extra on my budget as best as I can and then if I need to fine tune the sound I’ll make the adjustments in the EQ and find the sound that’s the most pleasing to me. A perfect example is I have the Klipsch RP 8000f v1 which is a great speaker but for me is a lil to bight and a lil light in the mids. Do I spend a bunch of money for the internal upgrades to fix my dilemma or EQ the sound I’m looking for? I’ll just EQ in the sound and save hundreds on the upgrades and still have the same awesome speakers I bought in the 1st place 😎🤘Another great video Gene, thank you for making it!
Definitely value your input on this subject Gene. Would love to see more videos on this subject. Maybe you could get Danny from GR research to weigh in on the discussion.
There have been a few speakers that Danny of GR research said that the crossovers were as well designed as they could be, and he was just going to upgrade the parts quality and add “tube connectors” for the owner. It would be amazing to see a Klippel spin on one of those. I was always confused why he would even offer an upgrade when he even admits that the speaker sounds amazing, but Man’s gonna make his bread, I guess.
I think it's a disservice to attribute Danny's work solely to profit. Ss he has mentioned, the speaker upgrade business is only a small part of their business, about 10%. I think Danny does good work, has good ethics, and has very good hearing skills. That being said, I need to see true double blind tests before buying into esoteric speaker cables, and I doubt the lifting of the cables off of the floors using tinker toys has an audible effect.
I personally upgrade ALL of my speakers, and using the best quality crossover parts that I can afford, and that along with box improvements where needed, all combine together to make a VERY significant improvement in sound quality of the speaker, even when still using all of the original drivers and such! I've never had even one speaker that I've improved end up sounding worse than it did in its original stock form, and usually the improvements I do are an extremely beneficial upgrade and immediately noticeably better! It's definitely worth it, plus it's fun and a good learning experience!
back in the 70s. my friend had thebig IMF Monitor IIIs, a four way tapered TL speaker that was flat to 16Hz with excellent staging and imaging. Bud Fried offered an upgrade xover card that when installed transformed the sound to near electrostatic speed. just wonderful. so, yes it is worth it.
Awesome video . This topic is a very interesting one. For me I have a pair of Polk audio monitor 70 series 2 and when it comes to upgrading or even putting in the same value parts, what I learned from Danny from Gene is that is it worth doing these type things.. for me it was a project to see if it was true to upgrade my parts or to leave it as is. With me I'm not saying I have a golden ear no. But when something does not sound right , I tend to figure out the problem. It's worth it to upgrade the speaker if I feel as though it's worth it. If I think it has more potential I will do the upgrade to the parts is only as the same values , And let me tell you it sounds amazing. With the tolerances it is tighter what is just right for me. There was a little bit of a change with the Tweeter. But with the tolerances of my ears it was perfect for me.
Zu offers a cap upgrade on more expensive speaker packages. I upgraded the caps on my Klipsch RP5000f using Auricap XO and it made a significant difference. So much so that I upgraded that to Jantzen Z Superiors and got more of an improvement. Dynamic range and the low end improved. Was like I had new speakers. This was only the caps, not the resistors or inductors.
Advancing the understanding of psychology/sociology and perception would be interesting. Do you remember when we found out through blind listening tests that JBL 100s with the red grilles sounded much better than the ones with any other color. We are all so easily manipulated :) Thanks again for a great channel and great work!
Two speakers covred in two colors must sound the same - but up to my experience in most cases they would always sound not the same - speakers which sound the same suppose to be tuned to sound equal - serial from factory are not fully equal.
@@Mikexception Thanks Mike. I don't have the citation it must have been 35+ years ago. The point of the exercise was that people judge the sound by the color of the grill not the quality of the sound itself.
@@Mikexception Agreed! The point of the test was that the visual cues overwhelmed the sonic ones. Our perception seems to be a complex process and is easily altered. I believe (let me know if I'm wrong here) that this is one reasons Canada's NRC typically does listening tests such that subjects can't see the speakers. ("Blind" testing :) Thanks!
18:05 -I'd be curious to see what the SPL vs Freq. plot would look like if this same speaker were driven by a TUBE amp! I would guess it would closely match the shape of the impedance-curve since a tube output stage acts as a current-source.
You are 100% right. For one I'm an electrical industrial tech. I had to face 3 professors when presenting my final paper, but that's not why I agree with you; it is because what you say it totally makes sense. All of it! Now.... I don't agree with you regarding cables. I can easily hear differences in my system. So much that I've sent speaker cables back to Amazon when I compared them to the cables I bought from GR Research. So, my friend: cables matter.... a lot! Thank you for your videos. I don't remember when I started to follow Audioholics. It is way back!
While I agree that changing any part of a circuit, like the wires, can change the performance of the circuit , any consideration that doesn't factor in the extreme subjectivity of human hearing , will be flawed. people selling you stuff never bring that up, and some audiophiles don't know the science
I agree cables matter. It's why I use very low resistance and low inductance speaker cables. The non-sense surrounding the exotic cables and their claims are simply ridiculous. If a cable makes a difference sonically, it can easily be measured why that is the case. Cheers.
@@Audioholics I think while deliberating speaker cables people do not notice the problems of amplifier output circuitry They treat it as connected "impedances" which they do not know how to analize. Speaker cables are part of this output I do not hesitate to call a mess. The less is resistance od cables the more significant is so called "quality" of that circuitry which is resulting in own electrical plus mechanical resonances because we have there all needed elements - RLC amd elestic supprted masses and of course reverse induction . To add to mess we need to incorporate in it "skin effect" I do not expect any sense to go much down with cables resistance, for sure avoiding skin effect is gain but I even would try deliberate more resistance - all depends on type of spaeaker - how complicated is crossover and speaker system
Great, lucid video, Gene. I think the best crossover mod with most mid+ market speakers is simply replacing the caps...especially if old... with better quality caps. Spending several hundred dollars on a new crossover for a $1000 system makes no sense to me. Just buy better speakers to begin with. Most speakers worth buying simply are not "a disaster". Same with thousands of dollars worth of cables.😉
Nice video. I appreciate this kind of content. reminds me of the old factual videos you used to make. Feel free to go a little deeper in a series of videos. What do you think about material selection in speaker terminals, for example?
non ferrous metals should be used for all connections IMHO. I had to change out alligator clips on my AP test leads when measuring a very low distortion amplifier to get the most accurate results.
Yes! Get deeper, more detailed vids on this stuff. I’m particularly interested in Baffle Step curve calculations. I’ve read several articles and listened to 2 YT vids receiving essentially 5 different answers to the above. None agreed on how to determine the point where descending frequency begins (eg 575hz) and ends (eg 200hz) flattens out. Side note: I use an EXO w/a lot of DSP at my disposal Thanks in advance & for reading this far
Good job Gene. One way to answer your question is take a pair to Danny and go through the process with him and take your own before and after measurements and conclude your own at home listening tests. Amir at Audio science review tested the Klipsch RP600M with and without Danny’s upgrade. He said the standard speaker was terrible but the upgraded one was very good. And Danny has shown time and again that it can be worth spending a significant % of a speakers value on an upgrade if it has good bones, as you’ll end up with something miles better than a standard speaker equal to the cost of your starting speaker plus the upgrade as the standard more expensive speaker will likely use same time of parts as your starting speaker. Danny has done more Klipsch upgrades than any other brand but also done a lot of B&W amongst others. Do your viewers the service of going seeing what he’s all about and give us your verdict. We need to know. Chris from Vinyl attack and Jay of Jay’s Iyagi have both been and we’re now waiting to see if Andrew Robinson has the intellectual curiosity and Cajones to go there. Looking forward to your report
In upgrading parts modestly (ie swapping a few aging electrolytics to modest mpk's) I suspect the differences created by differing esr etc are compensated for by improved tolerances - particularly in having the advantage that both speakers will likely be giving a more similar response.
I would love to try before and after upgrades. I don't think I'd do it on my main system, but maybe for my office system, where everything's a bit cheaper and not quite as much at risk.
I did upgrade the crossover parts in a pair of ProAc Studio 150 once. Close to 30 years ago now? I took the basic precautions like swapping iron core inductors with closely matched resistance in air cores (not to mess with box tuning). I think it turned out better for it. Not dramatically, but slightly better, especially at higher volumes. Those speakers may well have been good candidates. The drivers were the SEAS P14's and a ScanSpeak D2008, so high quality Scandinavian drivers with rather cheap and cheerful crossover components. That was maybe the typical way of doing it in those days? At least it looks like the typical penny pinching is more evenly spread across all parts these days? DIY-ing now, and don't expect to ever use a passive XO again, except for a protective cap on the tweeter.
A super high end bypass cap on the tweeter circuit is the cherry on top of a well done crossover.... and is a somewhat economically viable way to get some of the super high end capacitor magic.
You can’t get too technical. Guests from the manufacturing side is also awesome idea. I’ve also always wondered why there are so many drivers for similarly sized speakers, what do companies hope to gain by designing their own drivers in house when some off the shelf parts have really good performance.
QC can be one reason. The other, is to distinguish themselves from the competition. In many cases, manufacturers that claim they "design their own drivers" often use the major driver companies and request slight cosmetic or electrical mods to suite their purpose.
Absolutely excellent topic. Great video! Thanks Gene. I'd also love to know about "audiophile" fuse's. Do they really make an improvement in audio quality?
Audiophile fuses are one of the biggest snake oil scams. Stick with what the manufacturer recommends and put your money towards other things that matter in audio.
@IliyaOsnovikov yea makes sense and torodial cores can be great options, too, w less DCR than air cores. I should have discussed it but I did add a caption text about it.
Yes the really big iron core inductors he uses on some woofers are of a high quality. They are shielded or laminated in some way. I used them when I re did the crossovers on my CerwinVega! Speakers and they worked fantastic!
Nice clip 👍👍👍👍 Well pointed, that when upgrading the capacitors, it's a possibility of need in attenuation of the driver.... And if you want to see REALLY NICE, TOP quality crossovers, take a look at Dynabel Eophoria, or Super Exact.... It was Norwegian company - doesn't exist anymore ( due to DEVOLUTION of the society, that needs less of good things...). Those speakers were never outplayed by anything yet ! Those who still own them, keep them as most precious treasure.
You commented on using small tolerance parts. One thing that I keep wondering about is the tolerance of the drivers themselves. Electrically and mechanically, how consistent are they over a product's run and lifetime? Does it even make sense to worry about the crossover tolerances, when the drivers themselves have a wide tolerance?
I just made new crossovers for 2 speakers, an open baffle set I designed and built and a set of B&W 603 s3's. In both cases the improvements are pretty darned epic. Yes, parts matter. Once you get involved with high end capacitors you'll never want to go back. Iron core inductors are rubbish for sound.
As a builder I know better parts equal better sound, the soundstage width and depth improve, subtle nuances become more clear, attack and decay improve, these things may not show up on a measurement though. Just a word to the wise, when upgrading parts for an existing cross-over. It may not yield the best results to just copy the parts straight up. When it comes to replacing an iron core inductor with an air core inductor of the same value, you have to consider the DCR of the inductor, it will be much lower on the iron core and will change the output of the driver it affects slightly, this may require resistors in the system to have to be adjusted to maintain the same response. Just don't stop at cross-over parts, be sure to remove all of the cheap garbage between the amp and drivers, for more info go watch something at GR research! When done right, it will be a larger difference than you were expecting!
@@scottwheeler2679 objectively, he's correct though. Iron core inductors across the board have lower DCR for the same gauge. If simply replacing the same value for an air core, it'll change the resistance in the signal path and therefore affect the frequency response. As far as his other claims, I can also confirm his experience. Skepticism is great! Always be skeptical of crazy claims especially in the audio world where bias can distort reality. But you've got to be willing to do the work and apply the scientific method. Otherwise, your skepticism is nothing but pessimism.
@@scottwheeler2679 That is where experience comes into play, I have experienced the difference. Different parts have differing levels of change, adding it all up in the end produces the noticeable change. BTW, I meant designer and builder. I am not afraid to pull apart a store bought speaker and dissect/map out the cross-over and see how it can be made better! Can you say the same? What type of experience do you have to back up your opinion? In your humble opinion who would be an arbiter of facts? And short of bring you to my house and demonstrating said changes, what would you require as proof? I think you are not interested in improving the sound of your system, otherwise you would not act like such a doubter, I figure there is allot of envy on your side towards the people who have made these changes and enjoy them, and it's easier to stand there and talk $hit than take action. I can clearly see you don't know what you are talking about, an air core inductor doesn't hold a charge, an iron core holds a charge in the slug of iron which takes time to disapate. I would go on, because I can, but I feel like I'd be wasting my time.
Good point on addressing the ROOM issues before molesting the speakers. Im sure better quality parts can improve timing cues to make music more transparent and vocals more intelligible....If that information isnt masked by bad room acoustics and setup. 🎵🎶🤫🎶🎵
with old ears & damaged hearing I can't detect audio differences in most speakers, amps, DACs, cables, hi-res, etc, etc. let alone a costly cap in the cross-over vs a cheap cap. But I do follow GR Reseach for the entertainment and educational benefits. I do think that his mods make tech directional sense and perhaps I would do one of his kits for the fun of it.
Some very good points! Especially about keeping decisions to upgrade within context of what one is working with in regards to driver quality and overall build in general. I do want to point out, however, two points i noticed that are not entirely accurate: 1) The voltage rating you see on capacitors is not as big of an issue as you pointed at with the sample showing 650v rating. Although, when possible, I tebd to shoot for a higher voltage when selecting capacitors IF it's faurly close in price to a lower voltage part- this is not entirely necessary. Especially for a tweeter. In all actuality, a 100v capacitor is PERFECTLY fine when in series with a tweeter. The reason being is simply because that tweeter will never ever see the same level of power that the mids/woofers will see. Most tweeters will max at about 5-10 watts actual power that you ever throw at them as opposed to woofers. Their voltage swings are fine for just a 100v capacitor. In many ways, you are just throwing away koney getting anything over 250v for a tweeter, although I still sometimes choose a higher voltage part if it's a metalized capacitor rather than just 100v (generally 250-400) - but I would choose a 100v film & foil (separate poly film sheet/ separate foil sheet for each layer rather than vaporized metal on the single film sheet) over a metalized 250v capacitor any day 9f the week for a tweeter. Even a woofer is just fine with roughly 150v or so, realistically. 2) "Iron core" inductors are not always a cost savings part or even a sub-par choice in a crossover. A very high quality silicon steel laminated inductor can actually be a BETTER choice on a midbass (and EVERY single time with a low end frequency woofer) if they are of high quality and thick gauge construction with many sheets of silicon steel to push the eddy curents to unmeasurable levels. A good example of this are the Erse IXQ or superQ inductors. Take a Klipsch 2 way bookshelf, for example: the midbass needs as much help as it can get playing both loud and as quickly in the time domain as possible to better match the hyper speed and efficiency of the horn loaded driver. The choice of a 14 or 15 gauge laminated inductor will be perfect for this purpose + those ERSE inductors have next to zero measurable distortion below 3khz, especially if you get a thick gauge part. The distortion is always well below the driver distortion and this holds true for most laminated silicon steel inductors as long as they are not being asked to play above roughly 3k or even 5k in lower wattage power demands. Now, only silicon laminated solid core inductors are capable of this, so what you said holds true for all other forms of solid core inductors. The reason these get a bad rep is due to the fact you rarely see them thicker than 18 gauge in high production speakers- totally due to being used as a cost savings. However, specify a 14 gauge (or even 12 gauge erse will happily make and have in stock - I have tons of communication time & experience with them) and you will have just as good of distortion measurements in their intended bandwidth and MUCH lower DCR that no air core will ever match, as well as a slight nudge in the time domain given their overall higher Q factor. Personally, I'd never choose anything BUT a 14 awg IXQ coil for a midbass mated to a high efficiency tweeter or horn driver. They absolutely have the highest Q given their intended babdwidth limit as oong as you get a minimum of a 16 awg coil, but 14 awg is optimal and still reasonable in cost.
Great feedback. Please make sure captions are turned on when watching this video as I address many of your points. I couldn't recut the video since it was during Hurricane Milton and I didn't have power so I added text notes. thanks
The fact that some people don't believe that better parts can create a better widget, says they've never built much of anything. I build competition race engines. Try doing that with cheap parts and low quality machine work and be competitive over the course of a season or two. I also build rifles (for myself) where quality generally translates into better performance. You generally get what you pay for in the individual components. There's a bunch of examples of the ROI on good quality parts. I could hook you up with the Danny modified speaker versus unmodified. I have some Focal Cobalt 828 speakers that I haven't upgraded yet. I have the upgrade "kit" from Danny. They're scheduled for surgery this fall/winter.
Duplicating the OE crossovers from scratch using a reasonable grade of parts (e.g. air cores, Jantzen Superior Z caps, etc.) can easily exceed the purchase price of the speakers. Having performed this exercise with 3-way towers I really like, the results were even better than expected and proved money well spent. I could never go back. I was fortunate enough to have an OE design with even response curve and devoid of obvious flaws, but the real value in the service Danny provides isn't as much in the parts as it is the time and expertise invested to address what are sometimes glaring design shortcomings in OE crossovers.
Great timing as there has been a blow-up with Andrew Robinson's video stating that what is inside the speakers doesn't really matter (not literally what he's saying but that is how he's pitching it) and how 'some' companies make a lot of money selling kits to 'fix' speakers, which Danny at GR Research took to mean him. I believe that what is in the speaker does make a distinct difference - I mean just compare a real crossover vs that cheap one you showed a picture of with just a couple of resistors and electrolytic caps (ugh). I don't think Andrew was referring to that and was, instead, referring to going down the rabbit hole of tweaking good speakers vs. just buying speakers with the sound you want to begin with. To me, good high-end crossovers like Danny sells really come into play when building your own speakers.
I've got a pair of Infinity Quantum 4 speakers that I purchased way back in 1978, over 46 years ago. These speakers provided me with many years of listening pleasure, and in 1996 I had the Watkins dual-drive woofers refoamed. The EMIT tweeters and dome midrange drivers are in good shape, but now I'm concerned about the 46 year old crossover parts. Several years ago, I contacted Watkins Engineering to inquire about the crossover and get some advice concerning replacement or repair. The good folks at Watkins Engineering told me that the elderly crossover should still be good, but I'm skeptical. I'm pretty sure that the parts used for the Infinity Quantum 4 crossovers are not top self', but what do you think? Thank you for this excellent presentation.
I would really appreciate a more in-depth series. I understand that part quality does not affect measurements but does improve soundstage and presentation. How does this work?
Thank you Again #Audioholics Gene for Bringing Us with Knowledge and Wisdom on how the parts actually matters . I am know that Danny Richie is Happy with this video . I would love to see if he sends a pair of Speakers for testing to you guys 😎🔊🔊!
Dunlavy always used cheap parts in his speakers but carefully optimized and matched construction to get it right. That said i used high end caps i selected based on reviews of their sound to construct a high pass filter for some vandersteen subs. The high end caps sounded way better than the trial filter i made with cheap parts. High end amp designers also select high end caps to voice their amps
Yes sir! Great sounding with priced not in outer space. I am not impressed by speakers thay sound good at 16k. 32k, 100000k or more. Making a good speaker with cost no object is far easier that building something that sounds very good at a cost working stiffs can actually afford. Remember! There are no perfect aoeakers.
A really excellent presentation, Gene. Design. Implement. Measure. Repeat. And when one finally arrives at a reference design that is golden - make sure the manufacturing/production line doesn't screw the pooch. I would hope a reputable speaker company would periodically take production units off the line, and compare their measurements with the reference unit. Are there companies that actually do this? I don't know. But they should be doing this.
One of the things that I believe is often missed when people talk about upgrading speakers is the fact that there are many people, like myself, that just enjoy doing these type of upgrades ourselves. Just like I also enjoy modifying my car. Sure, I could’ve bought a more expensive car, but I like the process of making something mine. I also fully understand that a lot of people don’t want to be bothered with doing it themselves, in which case it would clearly make sense to simply buy the better speaker or better car in the first place. Just don’t discount the fact that there are a lot of people that actually like the modification process. In the Car world there is a. saying, “better built than bought”.
I thought crossover upgrades would mean a discussion on moving a speaker to active crossovers, not electronic parts. I went active with my Carver AL-III ribbons in 1998 and never looked back. No electrolytic caps to replace, double "effective" efficiency and with two amps, essentially quadruple the power I had before. Other than tightening the ribbons a couple of times and replacing one woofer a couple ofyyears ago, they're still going strong 29 years after I bought them in 1995. Fantastic dipole ribbon "in the room with you" imaging and sound with only 10" bass drivers and 48" ribbons handling 26Hz to 20kHz. Bass in my current house is +/- 2.5dB with no correction, only passive room treatments. It's a fully analog path for the turntable with a Carver C5 Sonic Holography preamp with remote motor volume control. I've recently added a Lexicon DC-1 surround controller and Klipsch surrounds and rears for Logic 7 operation and now music can play 360 with a fully natural sound. Duran Duran's Danse Macabre Atmos version sounds amazing with Logic 7 DD playback. It's not quite the experience as my 11.1.8 home theater downstairs, but still sounds amazing.
Active is a topic I'm very fond of as I own 2 sets of fully active DSP speakers and they are the absolute best performers in the house. I did a video about active speakers prior and it didn't do too well. Perhaps we need to keep covering that topic to help people understand the true potential.
My speakers have a passive crossover between the tweeter and midrange. There are 4 parts per channel and is composed of a Goertz Copper Foil 14 gauge inductor, a Mundorf Evo Oil capacitor and 2 Mundorf 10W MOX resistors. There is an electronic crossover to the woofers which is done by a MiniDSP SHD. The crossover was professionally designed as I had more sense than to try it on my own. My sense is that these are good quality parts. The speaker is a modification of a professional design which was entirely passive.
7:45 High Power handling loudspeakers will typically utilize capacitors with > 100V rating.
8:39 Toroidal iron-core inductors offer very high power handling and a more compact design, often making them more practical than air-core equivalents.
10:48 Ferrite core inductors offer higher inductance in a smaller size, while steel laminate inductors reduce core losses but are larger and better suited for high-power loudspeaker crossovers.
But I learned from Andrew Robinson, that if I don’t look at the components, and I don’t know what they do then they don’t matter.
@@_Chev_Chelios I'm unsure of Andrew's view on the topic but maybe that resonates with his audience if that's his claim.
@@AudioholicsI’m just goofing on him and his attempt to trash Danny. 😂
19:00 Those inductors are too close together and will have some unwanted parasitic crosstalk. For "Cost No Object" performance, I would not compromise by non optimum parts placement by the restricted "too tight" crossover layouts shown there.
@@Audioholics Very low series resistance offered by toroidal inductors is also worth a mention. 12/15mH, 4/5" diameter affairs achieve values of 100mΩ, which only marginally affects driver's Q and efficiency. Equivalent air core inductors would be the size of an oil drum with this combination of high inductance and low Rdc.
As the founder of two loudspeaker manufacturers in the early 2000s; I must say, excellent commentary!
finally crossovers explained properly , what the different parts do and how the quality changes things, well done
Good presentation. I rebuild a lot of vintage speaker crossovers. Yes, I remove the cheap/aging caps, low quality resistors and iron core inductors from and replace everything, usually going all poly caps, audio grade wire wound resistors and 18 ga. minimum air core inductors. Sometimes the customer wants a less expensive "fix" so I am not averse to using an electrolytic cap in parallel with the woofer or a good grade iron core inductor in parallel with the tweeter because that component is filtering out to ground, not going to the speaker. I also use the old JBL "trick" of adding a .01 uF bypass cap (connected in parallel) on the in series caps of the tweeter and mid range drivers. For example, if the circuit calls for a 5 uF cap, I connect the .01 uF bypass cap to the 5 uF cap in parallel, making the value of that filter 5.01uF. I think it helps with clarity and crispness of sound. Quality of parts also matters. I did a total mod/rebuilt on a pair of Klipsch RF7's for $300. He asked, when I gave him the estimate, "is that the highest quality parts you can get?" Um, no, so I gave him an estimate for the highest quality parts available and the rebuild for the caps alone was $500, for one speaker. He opted for the $300 rebuild and is extremely please with the results. Cheers!
@ammodude
What's ur site for upgrades
@@dorkawitz do you mean where do I get parts?
No I thought u had a business site so I can send u some crossovers
@@dorkawitz I don't have a business site, but I could do an upgrade for you. What do you have?
@ammodude curious about crossover upgrade for 30 yr old Velodyne DF 661's. From research, I know the design team built an upgrade, but it was abandoned due to the overall cost of the speaker. They still sound good. I would like to have the discussion with you if I could.
I dont have to much to say about crossovers, but I just want to give a compliment - Your experience and knowledge for all things audio and the way you verbalize and present it all to us all are just top notch! You have a way of saying the things and details I actually wonder about, that not all youtube creators within the audio world do. Also, i.m.o. the most trustworthy one out there. Love your work, Gene.
Thank you so much. Your compliment made my day in the face of this nasty hurricane about to wreck havoc on us. ✌️
I see they are evacuating over there in Florida. Crazy hurricane. Be safe!
@@Audioholics Stay safe Gene.
Thank you for another dose of audio sanity! The more technical the better. Great work!
Gene, thank you for linking to our Fundraiser. Any opportunity to get more eyeballs on it to help people in need is appreciated! You and Berta stay safe.
YES!
I'm Very Interested in a deeper dive.
I think that if your speaker has good flat response with cheap crossover components then a like for like upgrade makes perfect sense.
If the response is messed up then it really needs a better design.
If the speaker sounds nice but you want more detail in the reproduction then upgrading parts makes total sense.
I did a like for like upgrade on my 1978 Technics SB-X50's and it is absolutely amazing in the detail and imaging.
I wasn't sure at first if better parts even mattered but, I was willing to try anything because my Cerwin Vega D9s sounded pretty muffled in the mids and highs. So, I removed and replaced the sand-cast resistors with "Mills" resistors, replaced inductors with thicker strands, replaced electrolytic caps with polypropylene, removed all ferromagnetic material except in the potentiometers, and replaced rear binding post with 5-way ofc post. The speakers are no longer muffled. The mids and highs became nicely detailed, and the sound stage is beautiful with increased stereo separation. I've done 5 sets of my other speakers since then, and haven't been disappointed on any of them...seriously!
It's probably the replacement of the capacitors that made the most difference.
@Grommet2007 yes! That and removing the majority of the ferromagnetic material.
For myself yeah it made a difference and was worth it. I love to learn and get hands on my audio gear.
So I took out the factory crossover in my speakers and made a copy of it as an external xo so I don’t ruin the original xo. Mind you I measured all the parts to make sure the replacements I got were the exact same and also contacted the manufacturer to make sure the values were accurate.
It made a difference but I think that is because I used better tolerance parts. The air core inductors did make a difference from the iron cores in the factory xo.
I then re designed the crossover after I took months learning how to take quasi anechoic measurements. After a few iterations and help from pros, I made a phase coherent xo with 4th order crossovers which really made a difference.
It’s all completely reversible and was some of the best fun I’ve ever had.
I would like to see some more scientific experiments on if people can hear the differences in capacitors in crossovers. I did it myself with using clips in my xo and I could hear some diff. But I didn’t do it double blind. But it would be nice to see if , with all things being equal, the caps capacitance and resistance being equal if there is a diff in sound. By changing them out with clips.
Cheers! Great vids.
Mind you my speakers weren’t cheap! Lol
Why did you keep the speaker instead of returning them if you didn't like them since you wanted something more from them
@@AndrewB23 I did like them. Pardon I thought I explained that. The speakers I have I liked , but were also a means to learn and have fun. So that increased their value for me.
If I just got another pair of speakers I wouldn’t have learned a thing and had fun.
It also gave me a much better measuring and sounding pair of speakers.
I could buy a better pair, but I want to build my own. Because once again that will offer me an awesome experience in both learning and the end result.
Also, I think I mentioned that I can put these back to stock and sell them if I want.
Nothing has been altered in a way to spoil the original xo.
Hope that made more sense
@@Nightjar726I couldn’t agree with you more! I also had a blast replacing my crossovers with higher quality parts equal value. It’s so nice bringing the best out of your speakers
@@JR-ho5qm yeah, you just have to pay attention to the values and DCR and do some measurements to make sure things are good. A newly designed crossover take more work of course. But I started with just copying the existing crossover.
Good deal man
YES go deeper, get technical, bring on guests. This topic greatly interests me. I appreciate GR's channel and I think he has great products. Sometimes he redesigns a crossover, i.e. he uses different values, so in that case obviously it can make a huge difference. As for parts quality, I remain somewhat skeptical, but my assumption would be that it can make a small but noticeable difference up to a point... like, moderately good parts are better than super cheap crap... but exotic parts over moderately good ones? I'm not sure. I don't believe in cables like he does, or his tube connectors vs quality binding posts made of a good material, so I think I remain objective but am open to there being actual differences that perhaps we can explain and quantify.
@@Artcore103 agreed, especially about cables. I will bring on actual design engineers to discuss this topic in further detail if the video response is good. Thanks
@@Artcore103 yeah Danny obviously knows what he is doing. But he omits obvious details which more knowledgeable people know, such as parts tolerances and values. It’s not just about ‘ cheesy parts’ as he says.
And from messing around making my own crossover , you can’t really hear some things even if they are visually bad in measurements. While other things we can hear, which we can see in measurements. Such as phase.
Having the crossover areas be phase coherent is important. But not immediately apparent to an average listener. It’s more apparent while listening off axis and makes the sweet spot larger and more forgiving.
This is not a question for me anymore. I upgraded my 30 year old cheap speakers crossover and terminals in one speaker first and played them together, the difference was astonishing. After upgrading both speakers my newly purchased speakers went back into their box !
@@azar3006can you share the details of your speaker and the upgrade?
I've seen KEF Q Series speakers rated at 4 ohms but dipping to 1.9 ohms at 1800 kh - I've been informed these series from KEF are manufactured in China, whereas the Reference series are manufactured in the UK
My two cents: a properly designed crossover with cheap parts will far outweigh a poor design with great parts. But I will say a great design with great parts is really magical. I've AB tested plenty and I stand by my comment.
@@LunarLightLtd1 💯 I agree..
Yes indeed! The design must be great or nothing will sound right. Quality parts can made a good design a bit better. The problem is there are many design issues to resolve in any design and your "upgrade" might made things worse. You might change tonal balance, phase issues, time alignment and who knows what else. Then.... who can you trust thay actually knows what doing as well as what the original design engineer was trying to accomplish????
@@LunarLightLtd1 I think you nailed it, and the order of priorities. Good engineering first, top tier parts second.
@@memcdm I understand your skepticism but you're overthinking it. If you start with a great design then upgrade the parts you're not magically changing phase, tonal balance, or time alignment. If you disagree, back up your claim with measurements. I just haven't seen it. In my experience, better parts don't change the frequency response drastically (at worst it might be 0.5dB more efficient in some spots), but it improves distortion characteristics and impulse response. This translates to better transients and more naturalness that you'd expect from a Hi-Fi speaker. Once we can agree there, then we can talk about some real fun stuff that can't be measured like texture, imaging, and soundstage characteristics.
How would you know
Been designing crossovers for the past decade or so (both 2- and 3-way designs). Parts absolutely do matter for squeezing out the best sound possible. However, those good parts won't fix poor execution. (The Tangent TM-1 comes to mind here.)
Side note, impedance is very, very underrated in loudspeaker design. Poor impedance = poor phase control = poor linearity.
Outstanding discussion, Gene! Yes, for more of these discussions! Understanding/designing a good crossover is not a simple undertaking.
Parts do matter. Since our audio memory is so short, you have to do an A/B blind test to confirm it. My son and I bought two pairs of the Sony SS SCS5 and upgraded one set with the GR Research kit (sonicaps) and left the other stock. The difference was night and day in A/B comparison. But even the stock Sony's sound good with their cheap parts. Bottom line is, audio is not like cars, or colors. We have limited ability to remember sound and if you are happy with your sand resistors and electrolytic caps, roll with it. But if you want the best your drivers have to offer, upgrade the parts and have fun doing it. Don't need to argue either vantage. That's the hobby man.
As always great video, Gene! I wanted to perform my own anecdotal test on my JBL Studio 630s to see if upgrading the crossover parts really made a big difference in sound. I spent a little over $200 on new parts and was blown away by the differences in sound quality. I was even able to capture the sound differences between the stock and modified speaker on my youtube channel. Bass was tighter, better controlled, and much clearer. The tweeter had much better clarity and dimension. I also tried different brands of poly caps like Mundorf, ClarityCap, Dayton Audio and noticed there comes a point where you reach diminishing returns. Have you ever thought about doing a series on designing crossovers?
Excellent presentation Gene! There's been a lot of fussing going on about this topic. I think you nailed it!
I'm a DIY guy, bought a DIY kit from Amazon - HiVi Swans 2.2A - 2 way bookshelf speakers (w/ Dynaudio drivers) and holy molly do parts matter! Cheap parts like described in the video are there to get it out the door to customers and have it sound decent, but not amazing. Sandcast resistors sound shrill in comparison to Mills resistors and even swapping out air core inductors for thicker gauge air core inductors makes the drivers sound more dynamic, clean/tactile and obviously louder due to lower resistance. So using REW and a calibrated mic is a must.
I learned that a flat frequency response (FR) does not always sound great. If a speaker is using cheap parts and has a flat FR +/- 1 dB, it will NEVER have the dynamics, clarity and drive/power as higher quality parts would make it. Just my observation on messing around with my DIY bookshelves for the past year and a half with a cal. mic. I'm finishing it up now, but in the process I wired the tweeter to 1 set of binding posts and the woofer to another and have an active passive crossover outside to try out and swap parts on the fly for testing and listening... that's how you can hear the changes and make changes quickly ;) Danny Richie is a great YT channel to check out, but still need to watch others that actually explain how to do it, if you want to DIY ;)
I also ended up swapping out the silk dome tweeters for some High-Res ribbon tweeters and it's crazy clear and pin point accurate now. Some HiFi enthusiasts would be jealous of this $250 pair of bookshelves with $250 worth of high quality parts in it. I considered buying the new SVS Evolution center channel, until I saw what's inside, and I would rather just build one now. But that doesn't mean there's no place for those - just click buy and it's yours, no DIY. But is it HiFi? 🙃
Thank you. Loved this video. I’d like to see more like this
Great info on design issues. I have heard much of this hear and there over the years but this puts a lot of information together in one place. Thanks!
It’s surprising that Andrew Robinson has double the subscribers. This was a much better explanation than what Andrew and his wife offered up on this topic.
His video production is off the charts and hard to compete with.
He's not a technical review channel so he's not trying to give details on crossovers. His basic premise is sound though. If you like the way your speakers sound then it really doesn't matter what parts were used. Could they be even better? Maybe but you would have paid more and most people settle on any product because it fits into their idea of value for the money. All this academic discussion online doesn't cost a dime. Making a better crossover usually requires better drivers and more sound cabinet design to be worth the upgrade. It's a ripple effect and most don't care so why pay more? If everyone pretending this was such a big deal was actually chomping at the bit to spend another coupe thousand for better crossover parts manufacturers would include them and advertise the fact. But all most folks are doing is running their mouth, not their credit cards, so they don't matter.
@@davep2945 "if you like the way they sound" - subjective analysis of a speaker is irrelevant
I just wanted to weigh in here on upgrading speakers. I recently purchased an upgrade for my klipsch rp-280f, which uses the same crossover as the rp-8000, i believe. It was a lot of work, but after i finished them, it was mind-blowing how much better they sound. It was a gr research kit they really know their stuff! Now i want to do all my speakers.... eventually.
Gene i just want to thank you for doing this video. Maybe we can have a breakthrough for some of these nay sayers and speaker companies should be taking notes. I didn't have a lot in my speakers the upgrade was about the same price and I'm very happy now.
@@JohnnyKinsman-ek8qw I’m about to do the same and also do my Klipsch rp-450c also!!!
Outstanding video covering all or nearly all aspects of loudspeakers. Nice work!
Great video! I’m a DIY guy and indeed, crossovers matter!
You should have a talk with Danny, i’m pretty sure you’ll end up having great talk, great food and allot of fun!
Fantastic video Gene. Excellent presentation, truly informative and technically on point as we’d expect from Audioholics. Thank you!
Good topic, if you’ve watched his videos, many are more than just crossover upgrades he actually fixes response and in some cases impedance and resonances. Crossovers are redesigned. Where speakers are designed very well, look at the Polk LSiM 703 video as an example, all he does is put in better replacement components without altering the design.
Gene crazy you brought up this topic as I was just reading your article on this yesterday. I'm currently debating modifying a speaker crossover that uses iron core inductors in the tweeter crossover.
As a cobbler of speaker sets, I cobble together sets of towers from various used marketplaces.
I use a multi color sticker sheet to label them so I can discern what pairs came along together. That way if one set was worn out or abused I can weed them out together, or pair them with their kin which have the same degree of use, hoping they mechanically loosened together at the same rate. Or that the manufacturer paired them based on their variance, like matched pairs of tubes.
I’ve been meaning to get some kind of testing gear to help match pairs and detect discrepancies and bad-apples.
When having many of the same speaker, and following the philosophy of pursuing identical timbral matching, one naturally thinks on upgrading all of their crossovers together to bring them into even closer tolerances.
Cobbling sets together like this is easier with budget speakers, because there’s simply more of them in the marketplace. Lending them to upgrade potential, and a home hobby assembly line of soldering in a new capacitor. But dropping in a whole new board is rather appealing.
I feel that the engineers finely tune crossovers to the resonant character of the drivers, so I’m skeptical of any mod being a net benefit, but I also feel that if the capacitor was lower resistance and the tweeter became louder, that the room correction software would account for that, while also having the benefits of lower resistance with crisper transients and micro dynamics.
Sean Casey’s Zu speakers take a philosophy of having very high sensitivity and minimalistic crossovers with sometimes 1 or 2 parts. So a lower resistance crossover may play into that same philosophy in a way that some people prefer. But it’s hard to tell how much damping in the crossover is there to tame driver resonances.
One benefit of the Infinity Primus, is they have anodized constrained layer damping CMD like the CMMD Beta series much like modern Revels and I suspect like RBH’s aluminum cones have too. So the cones themselves have allot of inherent damping of resonances, which maybe would lend themselves to running loose with a more permissive crossover.
Exotic Material science has always been a fun consideration for me, but most companies have similar philosophies and engineering goals in respect to weight and damping, but still fun to think about, especially when a speaker pursues an alternative design philosophy or has something truly exceptional.
I added Jupiter bypass caps to the tweeter section of my Elac Adanté F61 towers. Wow! Even the non-audio-geeks in the house asked what I'd done. Thankfully, it cost significantly less than $100.
On my Seas Braggi MTM standmounts, the crossovers use Miflex caps in-series, Mundorf's best resisters in-series and Goertz copper foil inductors in series for the mid-woofer. All the rest of the parts are Solen (caps and coils) and Munforf's regular-grade resistors. The speakers are surprising transparent and have a high end that I didn't believe possible given it's metal dome tweeter which sounds more like a high-end soft dome.
Excellent information. I usually upgrade crossovers on most speakers
It's just a passion and an obsession. I am a DIY and just started to upgrade the inductors. Keep adding more information on crossover parts and comment on brands
71 years old ears need upgrading. 😊
LOL. I have tinnitus, I don't know why I even bother upgrading the speakers.
Thanks for sticking up for Danny at GR. Some people just don't understand basic electronics. Yet the same people will pay a lot for snake oil cables.
I won't defend the usage of exotic/snake oil cables IF the claim is "improved fidelity". I do like audio jewelry when the cables are designed properly and do no harm to the signal.
Kimber
Danny crushed it with the upgrade for my Klipsch rp600m's - the first version. Bought them as the result of the youtube reviewer hype train and wasn't impressed. His upgrade was a game changer for those speakers in particular.
What was the game changer though? 🤔
Great to hear that. Of course, you will be able to identify those night and day differences in a double blind listening test? :)
@@sagi_tech_n_stuff if you watched Danny's video (I'm guessing you didn't) correcting the phase integration between drivers alone will cause a drastic improvement. Klipsch's original design was abysmal and had a huge null at the crossover point. That alone is a game changer and that's just one aspect of the upgrade. It only gets better from there.
Id love to see a video of Gene visiting GR Research and film his reactions to cables etc
@@crazydwarfer Danny sells a revised crossover with real differences, then says that it's the parts quality that makes the difference, and people buy it. You could get most of the benefits with cheaper parts imo. But I guess that's not good for business
Would enjoy getting deeper into the crossover subject!!
Yes, please do more on this topic.
Absolutely parts matter! and absolutely please make more content like this. This needs to be settled once and for all!
I have a pair of Celestion Ditton 551 that I love. Next year I’ll be putting some money into them, more than they’re worth, because they’re worth it to me to maintain. Beautiful speakers should live forever!
Gene thanks for the video. Please continue to go deep on this topic. It would be great to have you or James do a before the upgrade and after the upgrade review. I’ve seen Danny’s videos and some of the measurements aren’t that different after the upgrade. Would appreciate you sharing your feedback from listening to the changes vs. just measurements. How it sounds is more important to me than how it measures. Looking forward to your follow up.
Great video Gene! You hit on some key points in an objective manner. Appreciate it!
Danny helped me with my crossovers for my CerwinVega! Speakers. They are a modern model so they have quite a few parts in them. Not like the Vegas from the 70s. Mentioned in this video. lol! I just did point to point wired with higher quality level matched equal value parts and also eliminated the fuse path and the results are fantastic! I also have to say the project was extremely fun and really took my passion for audio to another level. I’m currently anxiously waiting for a new speaker to come to market so I can do it all over again. It’s so cool knowing you are getting the best out of your speakers. I’m looking forward to more of this content. Gene it would probably work best if you sent Danny a speaker he could measure and send you the parts to upgrade, and you could evaluate and give us your thoughts. 👍🏻🔈
The Cerwin Vega's I mentioned in this video where from the 1980s. The Model was the D-2. I should probably be more kind to them as I was in love with those woofers back in the day. They gave me a year or two of solid bass and decent sound until I got the upgrade bug and the rest was history ;)
@@Audioholics right on! CerwinVega! Got me into audio in the 90s. That’s why I still have a pair and decided to make them as good as I could. It took good crossovers and lots of dampening. They responded well to the modifications and now are a really fun speaker. 👍🏻
@@JR-ho5qm As a teenager, I drooled over a pair of AT-12s. I would honestly love to get a set in and tweak them and give a good listen. I'd put some no-res in the cabinets, and work on those crossovers to replace the junk parts and control the woofer break up modes.
@@Audioholics haha! I was going to say that would be great content for the channel. I would recommend either the At12 or VS120 or even the AT15 or VS150. They are much better bones to start with compared to your older 2 way horn jobbie. I think you should do it! For old time sakes! Find a really nice pair and go with it. The No-Rez helps lots along with some bracing. I also made granite slabs with Sorbothane for the speakers to sit on. The bass now is actually pretty good quality. Lots of fun! I hope you do it!
Danny has an open invite best I remember for exactly that. He was welcoming anyone of interest to come by and go through such comparisons. I'm sure it depends on timing of speakers that came in.
Yea it's a nice offer but I only travel when absolutely necessary due to schedule and taking care of family. The door is always open on my end for product sample submissions though.
Outstanding video, Gene! Spot on with recommendations and references. More YT Influencers should be as honest and as thorough as you. Danny at GR Research is another high integrity person to refer to.
You really couldn't upgrade this video, excellent presentation on the topic. Thanks!
Very kind and I will plan on doing more with greater detail and focus in the near future.
Quality video, with technical content clearly presented. Thanks.
I have not ventured into the land of measurements much yet, but I see that it can be useful when treating rooms. Anyway, I have done an upgrade for a pair of klipsch RP600 M MkI that Danny Richie engineered the crossover for. The my impression at first listen was that it sounded like the volume was lower. It might also be the case as the impedance was lower after the upgrade, but after some months of listening I can confirm that it was the correct choice for me.
Many might say that the original sound of the speaker was demolished in the process and it does not sound like a klipsch anymore. Well, one thing is for sure: I can now listen to it at a high volume for more than 15 minutes. Before it felt like my ears had been at a concert, and I had listening fatigue. The sound overall sounded a lot more quiet. By that I mean there must have been a lot more distortion than what I initially thought before the upgrade.
I essentially bought the upgrade cause reviews of them gave me the impression that the sound would cover the sound-spectre properly as the original sound from the speakers was not only overly bright, but guitars in my metal music always sounded like they were in the back row.
I was correct, and now the speakers show me all the instruments and sounds in the correct space. (I base this on having used a headset a lot)
Since then I have moved on to GR's own speakers, and it has just gotten better, and I have also treated my room and upgraded the stereo system, and the speakers just keep on giving.
I acknowledge that speaker manufacturers often put their own signature sound in speakers, which can be fun, but can also be damaging to some music. I can at least confirm that no music on these speakers sound bad. They work with all recordings good and bad.
After getting more listening sound and working more on placement and acoustics, I also noticed that these speakers have a lot more details and can make a wall of sound rather than just coming from the speakers. So it feels familiar with many of the things you mention in this video.
All in all, I do think parts matter, but there is a point when you need a more trained ear to pick up on the differences. But there are also some things that you can hear instantly.
Many say that sound is subjective, but I think it also has a lot to do with what you can hear and how trained your ears are. Some that care only about vocals might not notice guitars being further back for instance, and som may only listen to classical music, and therefore not ever notice what a speaker can not do as they are only playing things that sound good in a certain spectre of music.
Anyway, I can keep going on and on with experiences and conclusions made over the years, but I fully support upgrades. I do admit that some speakers may not need it as the fun part about them might be gone after, but in GR's defence, it will undoubtedly not be bad, and you might get some extra features that you can only get with more expensive speakers. Just as long as you know what to listen for.
Yep he traded sensitivity for a more balanced sound. Most Klipsch speakers tend to be on the brighter side in terms of tonality.
Gene you bring up valid points as usual. More in depth would be welcomed. Thank you.
Gene, one thing you could've mentioned too about the premier example of a good crossover @19:28, is look at the direction the inductors face. On the woofer, they are all orthogonal to each other (X,Y,Z), so this prevents the inductor's magnetic fields from coupling together.
On the mid range crossover they don't do this as much in the Z direction, but every inductor is orthogonal to its neighbor facing X,Y,X,Y...
Excellent show Gene, as I spend a considerable time on my education and journey. The crossovers are something I learned back in car audio days and has served me well.
I think if your speaker manufacturer has an anechoic chamber, they are a quality driven company and the consumer can relax just a bit. These Spinoramas continue to make manufacturers shine. They seem to reveal who can make excellent speakers. I’m less worried than in the early 90’s.😂😂
Quality parts absolutely matter as Gene said, that’s really a no brainer but each person has to judge for themselves wether it’s cost effective to upgrade the guts or if you really don’t like the speakers enough that it’s time to sell them and move on. As for me, I ALWAYS go a lil extra on my budget as best as I can and then if I need to fine tune the sound I’ll make the adjustments in the EQ and find the sound that’s the most pleasing to me. A perfect example is I have the Klipsch RP 8000f v1 which is a great speaker but for me is a lil to bight and a lil light in the mids. Do I spend a bunch of money for the internal upgrades to fix my dilemma or EQ the sound I’m looking for? I’ll just EQ in the sound and save hundreds on the upgrades and still have the same awesome speakers I bought in the 1st place 😎🤘Another great video Gene, thank you for making it!
Last year I got a pair of Infinity p362 towers with the matching 12" powered sub for $150 on craigslist. Couldn't be happier with the sound quality!
@jayweb702 good deal!
Definitely value your input on this subject Gene. Would love to see more videos on this subject. Maybe you could get Danny from GR research to weigh in on the discussion.
I would like to see the numbers for a harmonic distortion before and after crossover upgrade with hight quality parts of the original values.
Agreed that would be a great comparison.
There have been a few speakers that Danny of GR research said that the crossovers were as well designed as they could be, and he was just going to upgrade the parts quality and add “tube connectors” for the owner. It would be amazing to see a Klippel spin on one of those. I was always confused why he would even offer an upgrade when he even admits that the speaker sounds amazing, but Man’s gonna make his bread, I guess.
@@MechAdv
It's a Profit Organization.
Speakers' inherent THD falls between 0.1 and tens of percent at the lower end of the spectrum, dense forest to start with, when looking for that twig.
I think it's a disservice to attribute Danny's work solely to profit. Ss he has mentioned, the speaker upgrade business is only a small part of their business, about 10%.
I think Danny does good work, has good ethics, and has very good hearing skills.
That being said, I need to see true double blind tests before buying into esoteric speaker cables, and I doubt the lifting of the cables off of the floors using tinker toys has an audible effect.
Wow that Perlisten crossover was sweet. Nice to see what a really good crossover should look like. Thanks for the video.
I personally upgrade ALL of my speakers, and using the best quality crossover parts that I can afford, and that along with box improvements where needed, all combine together to make a VERY significant improvement in sound quality of the speaker, even when still using all of the original drivers and such! I've never had even one speaker that I've improved end up sounding worse than it did in its original stock form, and usually the improvements I do are an extremely beneficial upgrade and immediately noticeably better!
It's definitely worth it, plus it's fun and a good learning experience!
back in the 70s. my friend had thebig IMF Monitor IIIs, a four way tapered TL speaker that was flat to 16Hz with excellent staging and imaging. Bud Fried offered an upgrade xover card that when installed transformed the sound to near electrostatic speed. just wonderful. so, yes it is worth it.
Very educational, thanx.
Awesome video . This topic is a very interesting one. For me I have a pair of Polk audio monitor 70 series 2 and when it comes to upgrading or even putting in the same value parts, what I learned from Danny from Gene is that is it worth doing these type things.. for me it was a project to see if it was true to upgrade my parts or to leave it as is. With me I'm not saying I have a golden ear no. But when something does not sound right , I tend to figure out the problem. It's worth it to upgrade the speaker if I feel as though it's worth it. If I think it has more potential I will do the upgrade to the parts is only as the same values , And let me tell you it sounds amazing. With the tolerances it is tighter what is just right for me. There was a little bit of a change with the Tweeter. But with the tolerances of my ears it was perfect for me.
Please do some episodes that will drive us toward a good mental model for crossover function and component selection.
Zu offers a cap upgrade on more expensive speaker packages. I upgraded the caps on my Klipsch RP5000f using Auricap XO and it made a significant difference. So much so that I upgraded that to Jantzen Z Superiors and got more of an improvement. Dynamic range and the low end improved. Was like I had new speakers. This was only the caps, not the resistors or inductors.
Advancing the understanding of psychology/sociology and perception would be interesting. Do you remember when we found out through blind listening tests that JBL 100s with the red grilles sounded much better than the ones with any other color. We are all so easily manipulated :) Thanks again for a great channel and great work!
Two speakers covred in two colors must sound the same - but up to my experience in most cases they would always sound not the same - speakers which sound the same suppose to be tuned to sound equal - serial from factory are not fully equal.
@@Mikexception Thanks Mike. I don't have the citation it must have been 35+ years ago. The point of the exercise was that people judge the sound by the color of the grill not the quality of the sound itself.
AudioScienceReview is good for this. I haven't seen them mentioned so far.
@@todd8155 yes. They are great at this.
@@Mikexception Agreed! The point of the test was that the visual cues overwhelmed the sonic ones. Our perception seems to be a complex process and is easily altered. I believe (let me know if I'm wrong here) that this is one reasons Canada's NRC typically does listening tests such that subjects can't see the speakers. ("Blind" testing :) Thanks!
18:05 -I'd be curious to see what the SPL vs Freq. plot would look like if this same speaker were driven by a TUBE amp! I would guess it would closely match the shape of the impedance-curve since a tube output stage acts as a current-source.
You are 100% right. For one I'm an electrical industrial tech. I had to face 3 professors when presenting my final paper, but that's not why I agree with you; it is because what you say it totally makes sense. All of it! Now.... I don't agree with you regarding cables. I can easily hear differences in my system. So much that I've sent speaker cables back to Amazon when I compared them to the cables I bought from GR Research. So, my friend: cables matter.... a lot! Thank you for your videos. I don't remember when I started to follow Audioholics. It is way back!
While I agree that changing any part of a circuit, like the wires, can change the performance of the circuit , any consideration that doesn't factor in the extreme subjectivity of human hearing , will be flawed. people selling you stuff never bring that up, and some audiophiles don't know the science
I agree cables matter. It's why I use very low resistance and low inductance speaker cables. The non-sense surrounding the exotic cables and their claims are simply ridiculous. If a cable makes a difference sonically, it can easily be measured why that is the case. Cheers.
@@Audioholics I think while deliberating speaker cables people do not notice the problems of amplifier output circuitry They treat it as connected "impedances" which they do not know how to analize. Speaker cables are part of this output I do not hesitate to call a mess. The less is resistance od cables the more significant is so called "quality" of that circuitry which is resulting in own electrical plus mechanical resonances because we have there all needed elements - RLC amd elestic supprted masses and of course reverse induction . To add to mess we need to incorporate in it "skin effect" I do not expect any sense to go much down with cables resistance, for sure avoiding skin effect is gain but I even would try deliberate more resistance - all depends on type of spaeaker - how complicated is crossover and speaker system
Yes please more discussion on crossover Gene. Video on this topic was excellent. I really do think that, one day Danny will be proven right
even a broken clock is right twice a day ;)
More knowledge and discussion on the topic. Yes please. Sounds interesting
Danny does use iron core inductors sometimes, like on the Klipsch RP-8000F's bass driver. He says it's okay when the crossover point is
As a compromise to keep cost down. The lower the crossover point the higher the cost of parts.
Great, lucid video, Gene. I think the best crossover mod with most mid+ market speakers is simply replacing the caps...especially if old... with better quality caps. Spending several hundred dollars on a new crossover for a $1000 system makes no sense to me. Just buy better speakers to begin with. Most speakers worth buying simply are not "a disaster". Same with thousands of dollars worth of cables.😉
Nice video. I appreciate this kind of content. reminds me of the old factual videos you used to make. Feel free to go a little deeper in a series of videos. What do you think about material selection in speaker terminals, for example?
non ferrous metals should be used for all connections IMHO. I had to change out alligator clips on my AP test leads when measuring a very low distortion amplifier to get the most accurate results.
Yes!
Get deeper, more detailed vids on this stuff. I’m particularly interested in Baffle Step curve calculations. I’ve read several articles and listened to 2 YT vids receiving essentially 5 different answers to the above. None agreed on how to determine the point where descending frequency begins (eg 575hz) and ends (eg 200hz) flattens out.
Side note: I use an EXO w/a lot of DSP at my disposal
Thanks in advance & for reading this far
Good job Gene. One way to answer your question is take a pair to Danny and go through the process with him and take your own before and after measurements and conclude your own at home listening tests. Amir at Audio science review tested the Klipsch RP600M with and without Danny’s upgrade. He said the standard speaker was terrible but the upgraded one was very good. And Danny has shown time and again that it can be worth spending a significant % of a speakers value on an upgrade if it has good bones, as you’ll end up with something miles better than a standard speaker equal to the cost of your starting speaker plus the upgrade as the standard more expensive speaker will likely use same time of parts as your starting speaker. Danny has done more Klipsch upgrades than any other brand but also done a lot of B&W amongst others. Do your viewers the service of going seeing what he’s all about and give us your verdict. We need to know. Chris from Vinyl attack and Jay of Jay’s Iyagi have both been and we’re now waiting to see if Andrew Robinson has the intellectual curiosity and Cajones to go there. Looking forward to your report
In upgrading parts modestly (ie swapping a few aging electrolytics to modest mpk's) I suspect the differences created by differing esr etc are compensated for by improved tolerances - particularly in having the advantage that both speakers will likely be giving a more similar response.
I would love to try before and after upgrades. I don't think I'd do it on my main system, but maybe for my office system, where everything's a bit cheaper and not quite as much at risk.
I did upgrade the crossover parts in a pair of ProAc Studio 150 once. Close to 30 years ago now? I took the basic precautions like swapping iron core inductors with closely matched resistance in air cores (not to mess with box tuning). I think it turned out better for it. Not dramatically, but slightly better, especially at higher volumes. Those speakers may well have been good candidates. The drivers were the SEAS P14's and a ScanSpeak D2008, so high quality Scandinavian drivers with rather cheap and cheerful crossover components. That was maybe the typical way of doing it in those days? At least it looks like the typical penny pinching is more evenly spread across all parts these days?
DIY-ing now, and don't expect to ever use a passive XO again, except for a protective cap on the tweeter.
A super high end bypass cap on the tweeter circuit is the cherry on top of a well done crossover.... and is a somewhat economically viable way to get some of the super high end capacitor magic.
Yes, please do a technical multi part series of videos and create a reference for the topic. Thanks Gene.
You can’t get too technical. Guests from the manufacturing side is also awesome idea. I’ve also always wondered why there are so many drivers for similarly sized speakers, what do companies hope to gain by designing their own drivers in house when some off the shelf parts have really good performance.
QC can be one reason. The other, is to distinguish themselves from the competition. In many cases, manufacturers that claim they "design their own drivers" often use the major driver companies and request slight cosmetic or electrical mods to suite their purpose.
Absolutely excellent topic. Great video! Thanks Gene. I'd also love to know about "audiophile" fuse's. Do they really make an improvement in audio quality?
Audiophile fuses are one of the biggest snake oil scams. Stick with what the manufacturer recommends and put your money towards other things that matter in audio.
@@Audioholics 🙇
Danny also uses iron core inductors for woofers in three way designs. As I recall, he said it's OK up to a few hundred Herz.
@IliyaOsnovikov yea makes sense and torodial cores can be great options, too, w less DCR than air cores. I should have discussed it but I did add a caption text about it.
Yes the really big iron core inductors he uses on some woofers are of a high quality. They are shielded or laminated in some way. I used them when I re did the crossovers on my CerwinVega! Speakers and they worked fantastic!
Nice clip 👍👍👍👍 Well pointed, that when upgrading the capacitors, it's a possibility of need in attenuation of the driver.... And if you want to see REALLY NICE, TOP quality crossovers, take a look at Dynabel Eophoria, or Super Exact.... It was Norwegian company - doesn't exist anymore ( due to DEVOLUTION of the society, that needs less of good things...). Those speakers were never outplayed by anything yet ! Those who still own them, keep them as most precious treasure.
You commented on using small tolerance parts. One thing that I keep wondering about is the tolerance of the drivers themselves. Electrically and mechanically, how consistent are they over a product's run and lifetime? Does it even make sense to worry about the crossover tolerances, when the drivers themselves have a wide tolerance?
Yep tolerances matter in drivers too. It's why some companies make their own to ensure QC.
Yes geek out on electronics on crossover parts videos please!!!
I just made new crossovers for 2 speakers, an open baffle set I designed and built and a set of B&W 603 s3's. In both cases the improvements are pretty darned epic. Yes, parts matter. Once you get involved with high end capacitors you'll never want to go back. Iron core inductors are rubbish for sound.
As a builder I know better parts equal better sound, the soundstage width and depth improve, subtle nuances become more clear, attack and decay improve, these things may not show up on a measurement though. Just a word to the wise, when upgrading parts for an existing cross-over. It may not yield the best results to just copy the parts straight up. When it comes to replacing an iron core inductor with an air core inductor of the same value, you have to consider the DCR of the inductor, it will be much lower on the iron core and will change the output of the driver it affects slightly, this may require resistors in the system to have to be adjusted to maintain the same response. Just don't stop at cross-over parts, be sure to remove all of the cheap garbage between the amp and drivers, for more info go watch something at GR research! When done right, it will be a larger difference than you were expecting!
@@scottwheeler2679 objectively, he's correct though. Iron core inductors across the board have lower DCR for the same gauge. If simply replacing the same value for an air core, it'll change the resistance in the signal path and therefore affect the frequency response.
As far as his other claims, I can also confirm his experience. Skepticism is great! Always be skeptical of crazy claims especially in the audio world where bias can distort reality. But you've got to be willing to do the work and apply the scientific method. Otherwise, your skepticism is nothing but pessimism.
@@scottwheeler2679 That is where experience comes into play, I have experienced the difference. Different parts have differing levels of change, adding it all up in the end produces the noticeable change. BTW, I meant designer and builder. I am not afraid to pull apart a store bought speaker and dissect/map out the cross-over and see how it can be made better! Can you say the same? What type of experience do you have to back up your opinion? In your humble opinion who would be an arbiter of facts? And short of bring you to my house and demonstrating said changes, what would you require as proof? I think you are not interested in improving the sound of your system, otherwise you would not act like such a doubter, I figure there is allot of envy on your side towards the people who have made these changes and enjoy them, and it's easier to stand there and talk $hit than take action.
I can clearly see you don't know what you are talking about, an air core inductor doesn't hold a charge, an iron core holds a charge in the slug of iron which takes time to disapate. I would go on, because I can, but I feel like I'd be wasting my time.
Good point on addressing the ROOM issues before molesting the speakers.
Im sure better quality parts can improve timing cues to make music more transparent and vocals more intelligible....If that information isnt masked by bad room acoustics and setup.
🎵🎶🤫🎶🎵
with old ears & damaged hearing I can't detect audio differences in most speakers, amps, DACs, cables, hi-res, etc, etc. let alone a costly cap in the cross-over vs a cheap cap. But I do follow GR Reseach for the entertainment and educational benefits. I do think that his mods make tech directional sense and perhaps I would do one of his kits for the fun of it.
Some very good points!
Especially about keeping decisions to upgrade within context of what one is working with in regards to driver quality and overall build in general.
I do want to point out, however, two points i noticed that are not entirely accurate:
1) The voltage rating you see on capacitors is not as big of an issue as you pointed at with the sample showing 650v rating. Although, when possible, I tebd to shoot for a higher voltage when selecting capacitors IF it's faurly close in price to a lower voltage part- this is not entirely necessary.
Especially for a tweeter. In all actuality, a 100v capacitor is PERFECTLY fine when in series with a tweeter. The reason being is simply because that tweeter will never ever see the same level of power that the mids/woofers will see. Most tweeters will max at about 5-10 watts actual power that you ever throw at them as opposed to woofers.
Their voltage swings are fine for just a 100v capacitor. In many ways, you are just throwing away koney getting anything over 250v for a tweeter, although I still sometimes choose a higher voltage part if it's a metalized capacitor rather than just 100v (generally 250-400) - but I would choose a 100v film & foil (separate poly film sheet/ separate foil sheet for each layer rather than vaporized metal on the single film sheet) over a metalized 250v capacitor any day 9f the week for a tweeter.
Even a woofer is just fine with roughly 150v or so, realistically.
2) "Iron core" inductors are not always a cost savings part or even a sub-par choice in a crossover.
A very high quality silicon steel laminated inductor can actually be a BETTER choice on a midbass (and EVERY single time with a low end frequency woofer) if they are of high quality and thick gauge construction with many sheets of silicon steel to push the eddy curents to unmeasurable levels.
A good example of this are the Erse IXQ or superQ inductors.
Take a Klipsch 2 way bookshelf, for example: the midbass needs as much help as it can get playing both loud and as quickly in the time domain as possible to better match the hyper speed and efficiency of the horn loaded driver.
The choice of a 14 or 15 gauge laminated inductor will be perfect for this purpose + those ERSE inductors have next to zero measurable distortion below 3khz, especially if you get a thick gauge part. The distortion is always well below the driver distortion and this holds true for most laminated silicon steel inductors as long as they are not being asked to play above roughly 3k or even 5k in lower wattage power demands.
Now, only silicon laminated solid core inductors are capable of this, so what you said holds true for all other forms of solid core inductors.
The reason these get a bad rep is due to the fact you rarely see them thicker than 18 gauge in high production speakers- totally due to being used as a cost savings. However, specify a 14 gauge (or even 12 gauge erse will happily make and have in stock - I have tons of communication time & experience with them) and you will have just as good of distortion measurements in their intended bandwidth and MUCH lower DCR that no air core will ever match, as well as a slight nudge in the time domain given their overall higher Q factor.
Personally, I'd never choose anything BUT a 14 awg IXQ coil for a midbass mated to a high efficiency tweeter or horn driver. They absolutely have the highest Q given their intended babdwidth limit as oong as you get a minimum of a 16 awg coil, but 14 awg is optimal and still reasonable in cost.
Great feedback. Please make sure captions are turned on when watching this video as I address many of your points. I couldn't recut the video since it was during Hurricane Milton and I didn't have power so I added text notes. thanks
The fact that some people don't believe that better parts can create a better widget, says they've never built much of anything. I build competition race engines. Try doing that with cheap parts and low quality machine work and be competitive over the course of a season or two.
I also build rifles (for myself) where quality generally translates into better performance. You generally get what you pay for in the individual components.
There's a bunch of examples of the ROI on good quality parts.
I could hook you up with the Danny modified speaker versus unmodified. I have some Focal Cobalt 828 speakers that I haven't upgraded yet. I have the upgrade "kit" from Danny. They're scheduled for surgery this fall/winter.
Duplicating the OE crossovers from scratch using a reasonable grade of parts (e.g. air cores, Jantzen Superior Z caps, etc.) can easily exceed the purchase price of the speakers. Having performed this exercise with 3-way towers I really like, the results were even better than expected and proved money well spent. I could never go back. I was fortunate enough to have an OE design with even response curve and devoid of obvious flaws, but the real value in the service Danny provides isn't as much in the parts as it is the time and expertise invested to address what are sometimes glaring design shortcomings in OE crossovers.
Great timing as there has been a blow-up with Andrew Robinson's video stating that what is inside the speakers doesn't really matter (not literally what he's saying but that is how he's pitching it) and how 'some' companies make a lot of money selling kits to 'fix' speakers, which Danny at GR Research took to mean him. I believe that what is in the speaker does make a distinct difference - I mean just compare a real crossover vs that cheap one you showed a picture of with just a couple of resistors and electrolytic caps (ugh). I don't think Andrew was referring to that and was, instead, referring to going down the rabbit hole of tweaking good speakers vs. just buying speakers with the sound you want to begin with. To me, good high-end crossovers like Danny sells really come into play when building your own speakers.
I've got a pair of Infinity Quantum 4 speakers that I purchased way back in 1978, over 46 years ago. These speakers provided me with many years of listening pleasure, and in 1996 I had the Watkins dual-drive woofers refoamed. The EMIT tweeters and dome midrange drivers are in good shape, but now I'm concerned about the 46 year old crossover parts. Several years ago, I contacted Watkins Engineering to inquire about the crossover and get some advice concerning replacement or repair. The good folks at Watkins Engineering told me that the elderly crossover should still be good, but I'm skeptical. I'm pretty sure that the parts used for the Infinity Quantum 4 crossovers are not top self', but what do you think? Thank you for this excellent presentation.
I would really appreciate a more in-depth series. I understand that part quality does not affect measurements but does improve soundstage and presentation. How does this work?
Thank you Again #Audioholics Gene for Bringing Us with Knowledge and Wisdom on how the parts actually matters . I am know that Danny Richie is Happy with this video . I would love to see if he sends a pair of Speakers for testing to you guys 😎🔊🔊!
Dunlavy always used cheap parts in his speakers but carefully optimized and matched construction to get it right. That said i used high end caps i selected based on reviews of their sound to construct a high pass filter for some vandersteen subs. The high end caps sounded way better than the trial filter i made with cheap parts. High end amp designers also select high end caps to voice their amps
Love me some Dennis Murphy products!!
Yes sir! Great sounding with priced not in outer space. I am not impressed by speakers thay sound good at 16k. 32k, 100000k or more. Making a good speaker with cost no object is far easier that building something that sounds very good at a cost working stiffs can actually afford. Remember! There are no perfect aoeakers.
@@memcdm I've been eyeing his BMR floorstanders. I currently have Salk SC Songtowers and I think Dennis designed the crossovers in those.
I bought the GR research kits for my Klipsch 600m2s and RF7s and the difference is pretty profound.
I just got some revel speakers, I did not need to do any upgrades. Did the research first.
A really excellent presentation, Gene. Design. Implement. Measure. Repeat. And when one finally arrives at a reference design that is golden - make sure the manufacturing/production line doesn't screw the pooch. I would hope a reputable speaker company would periodically take production units off the line, and compare their measurements with the reference unit. Are there companies that actually do this? I don't know. But they should be doing this.
TLDR: Yes. You're welcome.
GREAT CONTENT - listen to Gene - he knows what he's talking about. All the best, Rob in Switzerland
One of the things that I believe is often missed when people talk about upgrading speakers is the fact that there are many people, like myself, that just enjoy doing these type of upgrades ourselves. Just like I also enjoy modifying my car. Sure, I could’ve bought a more expensive car, but I like the process of making something mine. I also fully understand that a lot of people don’t want to be bothered with doing it themselves, in which case it would clearly make sense to simply buy the better speaker or better car in the first place. Just don’t discount the fact that there are a lot of people that actually like the modification process. In the Car world there is a. saying, “better built than bought”.
Great point! Reminds me when I used to play Star Trek Legacy, and I'd modified the old era ahips and took them up against the new ones.
I thought crossover upgrades would mean a discussion on moving a speaker to active crossovers, not electronic parts. I went active with my Carver AL-III ribbons in 1998 and never looked back. No electrolytic caps to replace, double "effective" efficiency and with two amps, essentially quadruple the power I had before. Other than tightening the ribbons a couple of times and replacing one woofer a couple ofyyears ago, they're still going strong 29 years after I bought them in 1995.
Fantastic dipole ribbon "in the room with you" imaging and sound with only 10" bass drivers and 48" ribbons handling 26Hz to 20kHz. Bass in my current house is +/- 2.5dB with no correction, only passive room treatments. It's a fully analog path for the turntable with a Carver C5 Sonic Holography preamp with remote motor volume control.
I've recently added a Lexicon DC-1 surround controller and Klipsch surrounds and rears for Logic 7 operation and now music can play 360 with a fully natural sound. Duran Duran's Danse Macabre Atmos version sounds amazing with Logic 7 DD playback. It's not quite the experience as my 11.1.8 home theater downstairs, but still sounds amazing.
Active is a topic I'm very fond of as I own 2 sets of fully active DSP speakers and they are the absolute best performers in the house. I did a video about active speakers prior and it didn't do too well. Perhaps we need to keep covering that topic to help people understand the true potential.
My speakers have a passive crossover between the tweeter and midrange. There are 4 parts per channel and is composed of a Goertz Copper Foil 14 gauge inductor, a Mundorf Evo Oil capacitor and 2 Mundorf 10W MOX resistors. There is an electronic crossover to the woofers which is done by a MiniDSP SHD. The crossover was professionally designed as I had more sense than to try it on my own. My sense is that these are good quality parts. The speaker is a modification of a professional design which was entirely passive.
I was hoping the discussion would cover how a cap or inductor or resistor would improve the audio and if the improvement is identifiable.