There is a lot more I wanted to talk about but the runtime was getting lengthy. For example, CIG has very generic tunings on a lot of ships currently in the PTU. This means that the Vanguard and Lightning both perform identically for example. These is not the final tunings of course as CIG just set a lot of ships to generic archetypes before they do further tuning passes later. And part of this is why people were mad as they did not realize their favorite ship was not fully tuned yet. So, if you were for example, a Lightning fan and tried it out in MM, you would be massively disappointed in how it performed. This is also the same for alien ships, which currently just have archetype copy paste jobs on their flight profiles as well. - MM is not perfect, nor will it ever be, much like the old model. But looking past that, you have to see the broader picture of what CIG is going for. One that I see a lot of people overlooking when defending the old flight model, particularly form a PvP-centric lens. Again, this game never was intended to be a primarily PvP focused game as CIG and CR has stated time and time again that AI will vastly outnumber players in the verse. And as a result, the vast majority of players will be interacting with PvE elements far more than PvP ones, and the model needs to cater to that necessity while still keeping things interesting. I know some people will say the old model did, and the reality is that it simply didn't, not unless you already knew what you were doing. Some would say that a proper flight tutorial would had fixed these issues rather than having to redo the model, but that same argument can be made in regards to MM as well, so this not really a strong argument here imo. Even so, there are hundreds of hours of guides both on Spectrum, Hub, and social media platforms like YT that covered combat in the old model and yet people still felt frustrated by it to the point that they would put it down just as fast as they tried to pick it up. - But beyond the initial negative feedback, there were still a lot of useful nuggets of feedback for CIG to comb through. For example, UI elements such as targeting can get lost sometimes when outside the periphery, which is not a problem with the old UI. Continuing with the UI, the icon overload can be an issue as well with lots of hostile targets floating around. It can be annoying picking through those targets at given moments. And lastly, as a multi-crew fan, it still has some ways to go. Currently, it takes only a second or two for ballistics to knock out turrets on larger ships, from ships firing at far ranges. Counter maneuvers can help a bit but you will just lose turrets quickly over time regardless. A lot of work still needs to be done on this front currently. One solution is to improve projectile speeds of turrets to deal with range cheese, but consider how low damage range cheese does anyway to moving large targets, a simpler solution is to strengthen turret HP and increase the dispersion of smaller cannons over longer ranges. Anyway, be sure to let me know your thoughts. I look forward to seeing what CIG does with this new model throughout the year and beyond. I'll see you all in the next one. o7
The hard part is the initial conversion. Now they can polish and tweak. While on paper similar I could swear the F8 has snappier handling than the Vanguards.
That is largely true. I made a few comments about how I disliked it and some features it really needed and a few patches later (EG: NAV FLT), they were in. Not because I wanted them, I'm sure, it just takes time for them to roll them out. All this means CIG could have avoided a lot of negativity if they did the base tunings before we got it of course. On the whole, we need MM, though a lot of people seem have said they loved it because of the new speeds. Something that we could all limit with the speed limiter before so I don't get that. It was the first thing I set in a fight. They also say that it will make PvPers not have such an edge. Which is rubbish. PvPers uses the same flight model we do. Good PvPers are just good at combat and they spend a lot of time learning to use the systems the best. I wish I was that keen. Some of my negativity still remains because we are more tactically constrained on entering the flight. We had near infinite options before. Now, with shields and weapons only on at SCM, it does limit it. Limit, not completely negate... It makes defensive strategies a bit easier. I still don't think we *need* the big switching delay, which is my pet dislike. But as always, I fly the model I'm given so I'll make it work just like every model before this one. Oh, yeah. CIG said in an ICS that it was to help combat circle strafing and BnZ in the old model. It was funny to hear in ICS that the new AI combat model now supports those two tactics. I don't get that either.
I do not have enough experience with the old or new flight models in combat to compare them in any meaningful way, but there are things I do not like about how MM is being done. The first is their admission that they are treating combat focused ships and non-combat focused ships the same. When in combat, or there is the potential to get into combat, the objectives of the pilot and any crew would be very different, and the flight model should reflect that. The second is that everything that makes different ships fly and feel different, they just discarded in favor of starting from scratch with archetypes that bundle seemingly bundle together ships that currently fly very differently, and are currently only doing basic tuning for them. I expect that once 3.23 comes out, MM tuning will probably not be a priority, so it may take years to go through each ship. I also suspect that combat focused ships will get tuned quicker then non-combat focused ships. I'm not wave 2 though so I can't see how badly any of my ships will fly in MM. And I don't know for sure if they'll open EPTU/PTU up to all backers before 3.23 drops. I also have concerns about the ability of non-combat focused ships survivability in atmosphere when attacked by combat focused ships. (And potentially have concerns about how QED, distortion weapons, and maybe even EMP will work in MM, and I don't exactly know how they all work in the EPTU. Of course, I'm still not exactly how EMP is even supposed to work in Live, even though I have a ship with it.)
If you are someone that spent 10 million uec worth of cargo, or spent the last three hours mining for quantanium, you'll probably want to avoid fighting as much as possible. Currently, in 3.22, one of the ways, if you were to encounter pirates, was to just throttle up and have your gunners shoot back while you try to spool and calibrate your QD. With these master modes, you can no longer do that. You are either forced to stay in combat, or will take massive amount of damage (and most likely soft death) before your ship even hits higher speeds. Like you said, if you are coming against a Hammerhead, and want to runaway, while your shields are buffering, they are also taking damage, and you are unable to shoot back... so why do I need gunners? And if I choose to stay and fight... well... a lot of SC player base don't really care for the PvP aspect. They understood there was that risk, but they were also comforted by the fact they had the chance the try and escape without having to engage in a dogfight, but rather a shoot and flee scenario that had as much chance to succeed as to fail. With this new approach, they'll basically be force to fight. And as basically your approach in the video is: "Just get good at dogfighting". Combat had a lot of issues... forcing you into staying in it, or massively hindering you when trying to escape it, is not the solution.
I am curious if they are going to look at the turret behaviors for larger ships when enter QT mode. Because if ships can enter QT nav mode but still defend themselves, then this may make running a bit smoother for the larger ships. But also make combat interesting for those giving chase. Having tested multi-crew against these scenarios, we generally found it to not be an issue against smaller threats, but bigger threats like Ions and Infernos is a whole different kettle of fish.
@@HybridVAudio CIG is trying to fix the "speed" issue by actually restraining your speed... and to me, that's not the solution. Arbitrarily taking control away from the player is not the same as giving the player a challenge. They could've made the targeting system become more inaccurate at higher speeds, or the shield recharge rate drop relative to speed, or having higher power fluctuations or overheat at higher speeds, they could even make the QD spool drop with each weapon hit. They could hinder adjacent systems the faster you go. This would encourage players to stay below SCM to have a fully functioning ship, but present them (on both sides) with bigger challenges when going faster. I just don't think this is the way to go. Combat balances seem to be ok, but still a bit more work. But forcing non-combat players to stay in combat because the alternative is even worse, will probably make people less interested in SC... until one day all we have are just pure PvP people.
@@DavidLimaGoncalves Those are all legitimate methods to accomplish the aim of slowing things down. I don’t think they’re particularly better or worse than doing so arbitrarily by “mode.” The problem cases can be addressed in many ways under either method. Make solo industrial ships tougher or faster to improve that balance. Keep weapons but lose shields while spooling to allow turret use and maybe weapon strength declines with QT assisted speed. These can all be done and still under MM. It’s all arbitrary penalties however they pull them off. Idk, one could argue it’s too easy to escape from combat in the old model. Gotta find the right balance.
@@brad433 I agree that it was way too easy to just escape, but "Escape & Chase" and Dogfighting are 2 different concepts, that require you to play differently. Right now, CIG seems to be imposing the latter on you, by, not only making the first one nearly impossible or heavily punished, but also removing the "fight your way out"... there is no fight in NAV mode... none... other than ramming other ships. And my issue is that both the wait times between MM and turning off shields and weapons feel like the game is taking control out of you (the player), for no other reason than: "You have to fight, there is no alternative, you either fight, or risk getting blown away before being able to reach high speeds". And add that to the fact, that it seems that ships like the Mantis not only will be able to prevent you from going into QT, but will lock you into SCM. So basically, if you are someone that accepts that PvP is in the game, but your tactic is to run away, well... you can't.
@@DavidLimaGoncalves I’m hearing you, but not hearing you suggest any alternative. You agree it has been too easy to escape. Spool times and losing shields increases risk for running. It’s harder to escape unscathed. It’s a proper goal, and remember, any method they use is going to be an arbitrary limitation preventing you from just jumping away. So all we’re really talking about is balance. It should take some effort to escape. It shouldn’t be easy, and it shouldn’t be impossible.
the one thing that erks me about the keybind changes is they havent updated the keybind map and you have to go digging to find what the binds have actually changed to
Since traders are the only people actually risking anything in this game, I only do it when I have auec to blow. I threw 25+ million auec at the Hull C before giving up. If I want to grind credits risk-free, I do combat.
As a pvp pilot i hope we get back to the system where your ship gear is returned stock with bad componets when you get them from insurance, and that it takes longer. I want risk, as it is now i agree.
or 10.. you underestimate how hard it can be to make good AI. Also it's an incredible design challenge if you're supposed to be able to communicate with them while you fly. I don't believe soloing big ships in combat will ever be a thing. Actually I believe AI crew will be limited to passengers, turret gunners (where an AI blade would work the exact same way) and guards if not totally scrapped altogether. Other than that and you're in the realm of having to design a command / input system to order your crew while you pilot that will probably be either very annoying to use or very overpowered. I wouldn't hold my breath for it. Right now, have the mindset that there won't be AI crew and you just can't fly a large ship solo. You want to fly a large ship? Hire some player to fly with, don't be awkward, it's an mmo.
The reality is that until we can get NPC crew, you have to find players willing to work under me on my ship vs playing on the ships they payed for. Until those cargo loads are worth a flat stupid amount of cash. You cant afford to pay enough even if you could find people willing to do it every run for as long as you are playing, every time you are playing. It is just not going to work until we CAN hire on those npc crew when players just are not available.. which will be most of the time for most people. It is not a problem of it not working, it is a problem of it not working until we actually have to tools to make it work and we only have a screwdriver at the moment instead of the whole tool box. As it sits now, we end up with light ship pilots, a very few big org large ships fully crewed during prime time, and rapidly no one else as normal players get online and realize that they can no longer use the ships they own. I love the way things are going, but it just can not work yet. They need to pause some of this until we do get the rest of the tool box.
That isn’t the reality at all. I play multi-crew the majority of my time in the PU. Nobody in my groups is “working under” anyone, and whose ship it is varies. It plays out like this: log into game, see some people your friends with, send party invites or join in discords to get together for multicrew. If they don’t join you fall back to smaller ships. The pay is high enough. Multicrewing a reclaimer has been one of the most profitable things in the game even after the split. People are just greedy and think they should make the same amount by soloing what’s intended to be multiplayer compensation. Well, hopefully that ceases to be as viable and maybe multicrewing can be the most profitable after the split, but not reliable solo. Personally don’t like the AI blade/crew concept as it works against multiplayer gameplay. If it ever comes, I hope it’s prohibitively expensive. Something to nerf the solo profitability. Player multicrewing should be more profitable per capita than anything else because there’s more effort to arrange and coordination involved.
And you knew all that when you brought the ships, it all catches up to you eventually. It can work and it does work, its just for you, you need to go away and come back in 2-3 yrs, you're not mentally willing to accept the status quo. CIG have invested years in building the dream, devising the tools, yet if you've spent your time gushing over your purchase and laughing to your friends about ''AI Blades and NPC Crew''...saving the day, and yeah! we can all say the acronyms and cool words, you have been living in denial and foolish. Sucks being you
The idea that we have to use the quantum drive to consistently travel at speeds that most people have personally traveled at on a commercial airliner feels incredibly silly. The biggest problem is that CIG is looking at things in terms of arcade tournament sportsmanlike contests instead of creating a world that feels like you're actually living it, and all aspects of the game are getting warped to fit this one concept of creating "cinematic" arcade ship combat. The hugest problem with this is "cinematic" is a terrible goal for a first person vehicle combat game, because "cinematic" is achieved by camera trickery in films, with multiple angles and camera zoom. When you try to force this into a constant first person perspective you wind up trying to force the *one constant viewpoint* into having the most cinematic views, this by its very nature limits your movement to be stuck to what would normally be done with camerawork instead.
WTF are you talking about? What commercial airplane goes 1k-2k mph? You clearly don't even play the game. And you don't have to go into quantum mode to go max speeds, you go into nav mode, of which quantum is not the only one. "The biggest problem is that CIG is looking at things in terms of arcade tournament sportsmanlike contests instead of creating a world that feels like you're actually living it, and all aspects of the game are getting warped to fit this one concept of creating "cinematic" arcade ship combat." No, the biggest problem is that clueless idiots like you are the loudest when not even understanding wtf they are complaining about.
Yeah. Cinematic first person combat is a childish goal to have for a sim like SC. I miss the speed during combat, it felt exciting. I felt like the hero of my own story and didn’t need banal tricks like limiting my speed to tell me how to feel. We have the Reliant Mako for a shot-in-game “cinematics” they could just leave it at that Let me joust and make mistakes and learn the depth of combat from the veteran pilots. The humbling moments getting stomped is a spectacle. TF2 was great for that reason, seeing someone fly across the map is amusing even if you die. SC has a brutal respawn so much more painful. But I still think being met with that skill difference is the mark of an authentic, fun, and deep game. Idk I’m ranting bc I hate seeing the game like this. It’s not the same game anymore. I just was the MM nightmare to end.
@@club2772 Cinematic first person cinematic combat in general is bad. It requires a massive reduction in player agency in order to get the camera angles that would be normally done with virtual cameras in a CGI movie or with third party cameras if you were shooting practically (e.g. chase planes for a movie about jets). You basically have to force the player to become a cameraman whether they like it or not, and really the only way to make it work properly is to turn it into a rail shooter (which is what Ace Combat: Assault Horizon did with Dogfight Mode).
7:00 - The problem with the whole "hiring escorts" thing is and has always been that after two or three rounds of "paying escorts" I have no money left to trade at all.
Absolutely. The shitty economy we have right now is made for solo traders. Imagine if you are in a caterpillar : 1 pilot, 1 copilote, 1 engineer, 2 gunners, and 2 or 3 more guys for the escort. 8 people to pay ! The money we make in trading right now can't support all of this !
C2 solo Trading is Fine you just need to be smart about what you are jumping into. You will have to plan your jumps so you do not jump into into a bounty zone or PvP hot spot. I know there are a LOT of people out there that Hate solo traders. No Solo trading will be fine but it will require people to play smart. In fact Solo trading will be the VAST majority of traders. When the new cargo comes in we will not be taking large ship to the small trade sites anyway. We will be going to the larger trade centers. little ships will go to the smaller places.
The playing smart part is very true, there are many ways to avoid pilots but it takes extra effort and knowledge (learning the game) And it’s the same with MM, you now have to think about how and when to escape and not just pressing the run away button
@@0Metatron I totally agree man. People should learn a lot of what they need to know running the smaller ships as they work there way up to the larger stuff. Still you will lose a load from time to time but over all not having to split the profits makes it worth running solo.
I've been mulling over this for a few days as I try running Pirate Swarm in a variety of fighters, and I'm not even sure the issues I'm seeing are all directly due to MM. I think restricting combat to lower speeds has actually brought some other long-standing issues with combat to the forefront. Unfortunately, everything is changing all at once, and it's really tough to pick out a root cause. When speed wasn't capped by MM, I would go through stages of combat, usually uncapping my SCM speed for evasive maneuvers when I needed to get some distance, and coming back in before dialing it back down once I was in range. I had the ability to evade when I needed, and re-engage. Now, those evasive cycles just can't happen, and I'm realizing what's going on that made them necessary in the first place. If you go head-to-head with another target... you never merge. You just don't. You can gun the engines and boost all you want, but your target is going to back-strafe and slide all over to keep you in his sights. It doesn't seem limited to lighter craft either, ships just seem able to stay locked head-to-head for extended periods, and never cross paths or break off. It happens eventually, but it just feels unnatural how long something like a Reliant can just circle strafe while you try to approach it. The whole thing is making me question exactly why strafing thrusters are so strong. Why can't my main engine push me fast enough to close the distance with another ship back-strafing? I may be missing something crucial, but this isn't even against players, this is just AI doing this in combat. The worst part of all of this is that it came at the same time as a massive rebalance of every weapon and ship, to the point where it's really hard to pin down what's causing any of it. Too many variables all changing at once, and it's easy to blame MM for the lot of it, when it might only be a trigger that showed us _many_ broken facets. The ship rebalancing feels terrible though. I know they want heavy fighters to be less nimble than lights and mediums.. but when I'm having trouble outmaneuvering a Corsair in an F8 Lightning, something is _really_ out of whack.
Your first point is my biggest issue with MM. In a ship that is basically a gun with engines strapped to it, why am I not allowed to run away? Isn't running away admitting defeat, or is everyone just extremely bloodthirsty? If your just fighting to fight, then yea I can understand why you would like MM. But as someone who is thinking about objective based fights (eg. having air superiority over a compound that you have a bunch of guys raiding, protecting the cargo ship from pirates) jousting just means you lose. Winning isn't always about blowing the other ships up. These are my preferred changes to the CURRENT flight model/reasons why its not as bad as people think, just know I dont hate master modes. I just think it's trying to solve a problem that is only an issue because there isnt any objective other than blow up the other guy. -If they wanted to keep light fighters having ridiculous speed, why not just lower the damage they do? Force people that want to use fighters to have a SQUAD of fighters to actually do damage to larger vessels. Doing solo runs on a target shouldn't stop their shield from recharging, 6 guys doing runs should. -I've also seen lots of people put cannons on their ship and then complain about fighters, sir you do know cannons have slow projectile speed compared to repeaters? -Most fights are not going to be 1v1's in the future in my opinion. This is what most people seem to not understand because they want to play the game as a solo player. I get that because a majority of my time in Star Citizen so far has been solo, but if I want to go lock down Jumptown I can not do that by myself. Ideally we have some guys inside stacking drugs and making sure no one has sneaked past the "perimeter" made by the guys outside, and some ships flying overhead to keep other ships off the guys on the ground. If i joust with 1 fighter and end up not over Jumptown anymore, then I'm actively helping the enemy by "leaving my post". Keep in mind you can do this with like 6 people depending on what gets brought to fight you, 1-2 inside, 2+ outside shooting any nerds who get to close, and 2+ ships overhead protecting the guys shooting nerds. I just don't understand the fascination on 1v1's because outside of arena commander or group events, when is it going to be a fair fight? If I'm ever in a 1v1 situation I've already messed up, because I should always have someone in another ship watching my back (or at least a rear gunner, oh wait they are useless because I can just point myself at the enemy 24/7, please give us atmospheric flight, and make the main thruster actually feel like main thrusters) I'm always going to try and bring more people/more firepower than my opponents. Where will your honor be when your respawning, and I'm taking your loot? Not with your loot thats for sure >:) EDITS cause im bad at spelling :(
>having trouble outmaneuvering a Corsair in an F8 Lightning Allthough F8C is quite slow ship it's forward thrust speed right now is 450, Corsair backward thrust speed is 205. You doing something wrong ))) Do you neutralize side speed difference before approach?
The problem you're describing in being stuck nose to nose is what all the combat pilots are complaining about as well. In order to merge, you need to close the orbit and intersect the vector that your opponent is orbiting on. This is impossible or difficult to do when they can backstrafe/sidestrafe faster than you can move forward in a diagonal lead pursuit. As Hybrid mentioned in the video, strafing left or right while moving forward actually nets you LESS acceleration than just strafing in a single direction. This used to not be a problem because combing your strafes would let you tricord or bicord diagonally to cut across the orbit.
@@alexpetrov8871 It's not the strafing so much as the Corsair just seeming to have no trouble pivoting to face me, no matter how I try to get behind it. I'm not going to claim to be an expert, so it might be more about how I'm trying to circle around him, but even if I do get behind him, he has no trouble pivoting to face me again, pushing me back to evasive.
@@DennisBLee I wonder what the goal of this is then, and whether it's just a question of bad vector addition, or if they're reducing the thrust on purpose to simulate something else. So you're saying that two thrusters are adding together to give you less than their vector sum should amount to. That actually sounds more like they're treating thrusters as _ducted_ thrust from the main engine, rather than separate banks, and accounting for losses in total thrust due to the extra factors involved in routing. I can understand the engineering principle behind it, but I've also never gotten the impression that that's what was intended with the maneuvering thrusters in this game. That doesn't look physically possible with some of the smaller ships.
The solo vs multicrew thing will balance out when CIG get NPC crews and AI Blades into the game. That's still a ways off as last I heard them say they needed to get SM and RL v2 out and working first before even trying to put more complex AI into the game.
I realize now after so many years without MM that i never properly utilized cover. I think the main reason is general engagement speed. Cover always felt more like something to watch out for and avoid hitting. Now with MM i find myself using obstacles as actual tools. I feel like maverick every time i drop chaff around an asteroid just to get a proper flank on my opponent. This was always technically possible before but only in the same way that sub 200 scm fights were always possible lol I am excited for what is coming next and what this will turn into. I dont think combat is in the best possible place it could be, but it certainly feels more fun than before. From here, we just need to tune and balance until its perfect.
@@elkneto4334 geez man, have you ever done a bounty mission? Arena commander? Asteroids, derelict stations, mountains, Larger ships, etc. Even in open space you can now deploy a noise field because the speeds are low enough to actually maintain a broken lock
I come from a milsim background playing games like ArmA and DCS. I know the arguments that realism can be more fun. But it is already obvious that CIG is more interested in a middle ground rather than going hardcore one way or another. Therefore there is some give or take that is expected. We could argue that they should go more realistic until we are blue in the face, but at the end of the day, they have already made up their mind on the direction they want the game to take. And at this point, I am inclined to agree with them.
A case of what has a bigger audience DCS or something that picks it's realism battles properly but has more mass appeal. Ie Realistic where it's fun, simpler where realism would just bog things down.
Sure, but that’s not what SC has ever aimed to be. SC is SC because it’s different, and that has brought CIG nothing but unprecedented success. Just sayin.
28:35 the problem is, we could keep space flight authenticity and still make it fun. The issue witg MM is that afterburner exceed scm speeds and then make it slow down again, making it feel like pseudo-atmospheric flight. Also, why we draw the line at the flight model, I don't find taking the tram in cities over and over again very fun, what about fast travel? Also I don't find loosing all my shit on death fun. Tri-chording was only broken, becasue of the overpowered downward thrusters taht are necessary for taking off and overcome gravity. If tri-chording was implemented with the actual thrust thruster could output, it wouldn't be a problem, but support the space flight experience.
With the new flight model, newer players won’t be able to get into as many different gameplay loops without having to pay for escorts. Do you think that a newer player wanting to try out cargo will be able to afford to pay for a reliable escort for the case that they get interdicted? Many people are getting screwed over unless they want to join groups to do basic trading when first starting out. This flight model makes it easier for those “pirates” (they don’t have enough honor for that title) who camp trade zones waiting for people who are coming in to sell or buy.
A new player doing cargo is going to be in a pretty small ship, making considerably smaller profits, as well as being nimble compared to a freighter. Someone in a C1 might be able to out fly their captors and escape, or only lose 1mil UEC. While someone in a Hull-C is not going to be able to escape at all, and have millions, if not billions worth of cargo on their ship. Also if your taking anything larger than a C1 down to pick up some cargo planetside, you're just asking for trouble. Cargo weight hasn't been added yet, so some of these larger vessels that can fly it atmosphere full of cargo are not going to be able to hold themselves up. Pirates will also most likely camp trade lanes between station either way. Disabling someones ship in atmo is just asking for it to explode when it hits the ground. On top of all of that, the prices for ammo, fuel, and everything is still on the cheap side so players can mess around in the PU. Flying around in atmosphere just hovering waiting for people is going to drain your fuel in minutes, if your maneuvering thrusters dont overheat and drop you to the ground first. Long story short, escort are meant for the large vessels that can escape themselves. Otherwise your just paying people to fly next to you essentially.
Switching to NAV mode resulting in defensive measures being dumped down the drain makes little world building sense. My non official suggestion is that the shields are being shifted to a forward focused Trek style deflector shield for Quantum travel. The new graphics for quantum travel look compatible with such an interpretation, even if unintentional, so that's what I'll pretend is going on. However, I cannot abide becoming an enforced loot pinata for the fighter folk with non shield countermeasures like flares and autonomously guided missile systems also going down. "Fun" is not multiplayer jammed into every corner when cat herding is needed to source players each session. Especially when NPC crew and armor are nowhere near.
It would be interesting to see if they would be open to allowing counter measures when in nav mode. Maybe in Nav Flight but in QT mode you can't use it? Not sure. I'm curious to see what they end up doing with it in the long run as more data is collected from players using it in the verse.
I was there over 8 years ago. When 2.6 dropped. I was very invested in the 2.5 flight model. Was good at it and everything. Only for it to be gutted for a dogshit flight model that forced a 2 ship meta for 8 long years. So you can imagine how vindicated I feel now that we are returning to the glory days. Mm id basically identical to 2.5, with a bit more sluggishness. Needless to say, the losers who 'got good' at the current pile of stinking garbage excuse for a 'flight model' can get royally fucked for all I care. I'm happy that the flight model I'm good at is back in the game again. I'm already kicking ass in ptu. At least as much as I can at low framerates :p
This is probably one of the most accurate takeaways from MM. It is DEFINITELY a return to the glory days of when the flight model felt better in 2.5 and below.
TBH, considering this is the first iteration of MM and knowing CIG, I am 100% sure all this is still very much subject to change. Personally I don't mind the new system.
I'm not a player getting extremely mad wondering why I'm dying and loosing my cargo. I'm a player getting extremely mad wondering how come my highly sophisticated ship capable of calculating quantum route to a detail can't handle a single turret that can automatically shoot down those few tiny red dots from my radar. Because that's what cargo ships should be. Giant slow massive tanks with enough fire power to blow out any fighter ship like a puny candle.
Yeah cause that's what cargo ships and trucks are in real life. Just cause you suck at the game doesn't mean you and other care bears should be invincible without any skill by hopping in a cargo ship.
@@loadingerror9975 What are you, five? What skill? Playing games is not a skill, dude! 🤣 It's a *pass time* and should be fun! It shouldn't require putting hundreds of hours in just to be playable. If you want competition, go play a sport. And *yes* - that's what is used to haul valuable cargo in real life. Haven't you heard of armoured tracks? Money convoys? Also, read a science magazine from time to time, maybe you'll get an idea of what's future and what's obsolete.
I'm still concerned about an enemy getting a couple lucky shots of quickly, regardless it still takes time for shields to get up to full power so anytime in between you switching to SCM and them getting to full power you are vulnerable. What if they only allowed shields in NAV mode but made you switch to SCM for guns & msl....Do you think that would be a fair compromise? Just my thoughts
One thing I always hoped for with MM is that it would end the meta-driven strategy that most players use. Some players are going to need to adjust to thinking for themselves on how to get better at combat, rather than reading a reddit thread on what the best meta is, plunk down $300 on whatever ship they decided on, and then have insta-skill.
As a fellow evo, you know that spool timer are part drive and mostly set by the ship itself right? Even with the unifying of the QT drive spool timers, all industrial ships have a baseline that is longer than a heavy fighter, and the connie has around 20 second after the rebalance?
I think part of the ship may play a role, but more critically it is the size of the drive and the type being used. There is also supposed to be a massive component rework/rebalance coming very soon I believe.
@@HybridVAudio I didnt run the number myself, but another evo checked the ships he could get access to, mainly small, medium ones on the server They found for small the ships spool timer is about 50% and for medium depending on the ship its 50-75% after the quick rebalance Many of the issue are due to design flaws and not fully thinking out the consequences These have all been pointed out, in some case directly conversation with the devs but whether they are able to do anything against the 'design vision' is another question For instance they have locked the switch between nav and scm to the drive spool timer, without realising that on exiting the diables the QT drive for a cooldown period, and after that only then can spool the drive This was originally intended to stop players from jumping away instantly but the new system added to the old only slow you down even more We do not know as cig hasnt said if cooldown timer will still be a thing with new QT drives So why not drop out and immediately go to scm mode? with shield and weapon up? CIG has confirmed that you will alway exit QT in nav mode by the design vision and will not change it So we are lead to conclude that if you exit from QT your supposed to be unable to move quickly and having to wait a timer out to be able to put up your shield and weapons for potentially up to 20 seconds? After every single even 10 second jump? (at least it is down from the 45-60 second for large ship now that they where shieldless/no weapon/max speed 80ms) No other game would drop you in a potential combat area with no defence and no weapon and limited movement until a timer ran down while allow anyone to shoot and kill you? Simply poor/bad design I'll admit the shield not coming back up after a QT jump until the cooldown and spool timers have run down even if switching to SCM might be a bug, so why not just exit QT in SCM then? That is before we get to locking scanning modes in mining to scm speeds while spreading out resource nodes at 10-20km or more I could continue to list all the design flaws/oversights but this would get very very long and that is before we even get to any bugs XD These aren't bugs, or edge cases, they immediately encountered after leaving the hanger and jumping anywhere, cig clearly hasnt thought this through
@@Ospray3151 It may, or may not have been thought through. Neither you or I are in their meeting rooms so we don't know for sure what their intentions are. That is on them to convey. Best to assume these are already known to them and is being worked on as the current design is not even being close to being finished. Furthermore, we know that Yogi mentioned that NAV will be the default all around (like it was changed to recently) and with the coming Q-boost and Q-drive changes, it stands to reason that this will be vastly different in the near future. But again, it is up to CIG to be communicative on that front. This is why the feedback has been that the transit modes are very clunky, and no doubt CIG is aware of this. Either way, with systems missing they have to work within the limitations they have imposed on themself, for better or for worse. But even so it is only for a short period of time since Q-Boost and much more is around the corner for this year.
@@HybridVAudio yes, it make you wonder why it was done this way It the worse of both systems then asking for feedback on it? You have a new system which makes travelling demonstrably worse, yet most of the people testing have spend most of the time travelling and don't even go into combat unless forced into combat against their will. So of course the replies are very negative Imo it would have been far better to introduce the new complete system than the hacked together one which serves only to annoy a percentage of the player base making the game more tedious and less far less enjoyable
MM is not even going to be the final model and combat balance but an overdue shake up. We have new atmo flight model, armor, ammo types, and engineering still waiting to come in and disrupt balance. Ships feel more substantial with room to give them more character now and some weapon variance. Pilots who train are always going to have an edge over lower skilled pilots no matter what they do with the numbers. There is room for more tactical combat now.
It reminds me of the old upright arcade games I played in the '90s. Kinda garbage. Ive played about 4 hours in AC and I prefer the flight model we have now to this. Each to their own. I doubt I even bother with PVP going forward if this drops into the PU. My other concern is that tying ship functions to speed will make some of them useless for their intended "loops". A drop ship without shields at certain points in its mission? Barely moves with the gear down? Why? And who was asking for this? Seriously, who wants MM? Edit- and yes, upvotes is how an online community does in fact validate an opinion, for good or ill.
@@starbuck5728 me either. If they wanted to cut down on jousting buff missiles and folks will rush to jam the WEZ in a lightly shielded ship. In anything larger vs a light fighter I just move the Power Triangle to shields and putt along till I can jump away.
You're asking the wrong question. It has nothing to do with who wants MM, but instead what does the game need to achieve the vision both CR and CIG have in mind for the game. The current FM just simply doesn't translate well to the close in, WW2 style of combat CR had in mind, where things are slower and much closer like you would see in traditional sci-fi media. This is also closer in line with his much older games he was famous for. This is the goal they settled on after years of trying to find the right way to hammer this model down. Trying twitch shooter like systems initially, then post 3.0 moving on to a slower accel but higher top speed system like we have in live right now with a lot more freedom of movement, and then finally now, after concluding that experiment, picking something much slower and deliberate (and closer to the older 2.6 model) and seemingly now sticking with it, now that SQ42 is on the horizon.
@@HybridVAudio Hard pass then. It doesnt interest me. I got my fill of upright video games back in the 90's. I also think CIG needs to ask what its players want, not what Chris Roberts wants. He works for us after all, not the other way around.
My one and only complaint about MasterModes, is that your shields 100% drop when you go into Nav mode.. PRIOR to your QD ever 'aligning' or even "Spooling". They literally start to 'lower' the instant you start to transition from SCM to NAV. That's basically a death-sentence to anyone trying to actually 'get away' from a fight, or even to just 'jump' in general... as not only are you having to 'point' and fly on a strait path towards where your trying to go, but all of your shields drop. making you 100% vulnerable. It'd make more sense if they simply stopped 'recharging' but stayed up with what power they already had.
honestly bounties shouldn't just appear in atmosphere. they should spawn roughly 500-1000KM above a planet's surface, then QT to the planet and then spline jump to the nearest POI and then fly to the intended combat zone manually not becoming hostile until they either reach the location or their hunter comes within 50km of them
Kind of glad to see solo trading go, at least with the larger ships. This seems like one of many things to make doing that with a group more interesting. Just wish we had a good system for LFG. Someday.
Trading is barely profitable enough for a solo pilot. Splitting it across a crew, on top of increased risk from NPCs and freight elevators will kill the game loop entirely.
@@Reaver-One I don't get why you'd keep the pricing the same. That makes no sense. Though I can profit just fine right now, it wouldn't make sense to not adjust for that.
@@KaryudoDSabsolutely agreed. Some of the missions in eptu saw huge payout increases. I imagine the cargo missions will be very profitable when they come out.
So I feel like I hate something but I don't know what I hate cuz I can't figure out what the hate is cuz that's something that I hate I don't know what I hate sometimes I hate when I get confused that's how I feel when I see people that say I hate something but don't give an excuse
I play the game since the 2.6 and I'm more a PVP AC player. I realy love the new MM. It feels more main truster oriented making the trajectories more what we expect from a space simulator game. All our space culture get from like Star War Films wasn't match with the previous legacy model imo. I truly have fun chasing target and I'm really exiting to experience a large PVP engagement (org vs org) to see how the team play in this MM is good.
Honestly, MM is boring to me. I've started to play less knowing it's coming and that's fine. For me atmo flying is really boring, ugh. It's more boring than Microsoft Flight. The reason why I say that is because these are SPACESHIPS. There will be a lot of balance coming 😊👍, so fingers crossed to the release and future.
@brad433 Here's what I do like. Boosting feels better and has a smooth feeling to it. What I don't like is maneuvering. In a lot of ships. It's very clunky. I don't feel like you can pull off exciting tricks as much. Something about it is just boring. It feels catered to the Gladius or Arrow. Things will change 100% it's not the end of the flight model.
@@Mr_J112 Can you tell me what sort of maneuver? I’m messing with low flying for a bit now. My take is it feels more like flight sims, where there isn’t much authority with anything but pitch and roll, particularly positive pitch. Are you trying to strafe? Do you play any flight sims? How does it compare to you?
@brad433 I do play Flight Sims. A spaceship shouldn't feel like an airplane. Arrow, Sabre, and Eclipse are the only plane like ships. MM is catered for Gladius and Arrow. CIG forgot about non combat and made a lot of them less fun. This game doesn't really have what would call Canyons, especially Daymar. Low flight is more meh and already was meh. Racing in atmo isn't as fun, unless in the MISC snub. And it will be adjusted before live I HOPE. But I'm just not a fan. I play but end up getting off a lot faster because I'm bored. I go back to PU. It just doesn't feel like you need skill for MM
@@Mr_J112 I promise I’m not trolling you. I want to understand what you mean. What is it exactly you’re saying doesn’t feel right? What’s the basis for how a non-plane ship should handle? By non-plane, I assume you mean “brick” ships like a vulture. Are you saying that ship “should” feel good in atmo? What qualities are you describing as feeling good? What feels simplified to you? That seems like changing scope now. You’re saying things but not identifying why, which looks like you’re just parroting someone else (all due respect).
I do not understand what is the point to discuss is MM good or bad when right now in PTU CIG tune ships and weapons characteristics every 1-2 days and these changes sometimes are -+100% of value. There is simply nothing to discuss yet, nothing is finished.
@@MrKill_SC Yea, they read comments on youtube. Dude. have you ever tried to listen like 100000 opinions and come to some conclusion using this "data"? Feedback, sure )))
@@MrKill_SC CIG and any other gameDev uses server side statistics for such decisions. That thread is purely for PR purpose, because such a small number of players can't show what will million of silent casual players like )) Educate yourself.
The thing I find the weirdest is that this was even a priority. Tbh it feels like they were trying to fix a problem that didn't exist. Like... the game is so unfinished, wasn't there anything else that would have been better time spent working on? Anyway... I hope CIG listens to feedback (not the angry trolls), and hopefully something good comes from this
melted all my big ships.. bah 1 and that so i can have my big hanger when the cargo patch drops.. as a solo player most of the time I see no point in having a huge ship. I rock all the tiny ones for cargo, mining and salvage. no point what so ever in having big ships for the solo grind tbh... Lets hope base building is a thing sooner rather than later.. all my wallet money needs spending lol.
It helps to remember that this is not the first time CIG has asked for feedback, and that was only after over a year blackout on the details of MM. The latest feedback to a large extent offers up nothing new. What is frustrating for backers is when we are finally asked for feedback, then the feedback is largely ignored. It's much like the IC. You got a bug so you go look it up and voila, the bug has been previously reported and further more it is marked as archived. Wasting time as backers is just as frustrating, so Devs show some empathy. I would think that a few folks blowing off steam to a Dev is entirely predictable. Respect is earned. Asking us for feedback on a system that has already passed signoff and is slated for release is insulting. What is more insulting is that all the little problems that MM was claimed to fix, still exist. Yet we are expected to accept an arcadey FM. This isn't what we were promised.
complexity and variability is what makes long-lasting games. easy to learn hard to master is the deepness we need. I hope CIG will not dial back their plans because of many newcomers or old players mad of them pushing changes and re-learning
Games that do well are easy to learn, hard to master and have depth of skill and systems involved When a game doubles the amount controls used and steps needed to simply to travel from a to b, and uses those systems to punish the unknowing instead of reward them then that is a flaw in design not an improvement And no it's not dark souls like, dark souls drops heavy hints as to what to do and can be played easily if following them This redesign add counter intuitive extra step for the reason of making travel slower and more tidious so others will have the chance to catch people travelling and prevent them simply flying away
@@Ospray3151 I totally agree, the "jump" should be a straightforward grand thing with just two steps - select target, spool up and jump. Any debufs are quite cool actually - when you jump your shields down, etc. but things have to be straightforward.
When the enemy pops into SCM mode, quantum isn't the quickest way to escape anymore. Now you must switch to nav mode and actually fly away while their locked down to 200ish velocity. Then pop quantum to get further away
>their locked down to 200ish velocity Small fighters boost up to 600 in SCM, it may give them enough time to shoot off some critical component from unshielded prey. Probably best strategy for them would be to use distortion scattergun to cripple target.
well since MM is around lets discus ZERO chance ships. In the following list of ships, you are dead in MM. All Freelancers, Vulture, Mole, 100 and 300 ships, Prospector, Connie or Corsair if you think you can fight before you run, Raft, cutter, Arora, Syulen, and Hull A. I left out the multi crew ships because they are multi crew. All the listed ships crewed or not will be wrecked by two fighters before they jump AI or not. The current shield interface does not work and the extended range on guns just gives small fighters a hit at range advantage. The full lack of a mechanic like quantum sneering and interdiction, Where CIG themselves have no idea of how it will fit within the current flight system. Yes, we have flight system with no consideration other than to make it look cool. Flight, wise it does not feel bad if you are in a small/single seat fighter, but your options have been cut down severely and with cannons what it is currently time to kill is like 15 sec. (that is by a bad pilot on a bad pilot). There are extreme holes that MM has where a lot of ships do not have a place. Without a true response of how these issues can be taken care of MM is a worse system than the current and I for one can't see where any of the above listed ships fit in MM. There is your feedback now give me real solutions within the MM flight model that will resolve them.
I've tested the ships you mentioned in both in Pirate swarm and in the verse (prior to the laggy wave 1 and 2 releases) you can absolutely get away in them easily. But I wouldn't expect everyone to have the same skill set and flight hours as me being evo, so I can be in some agreement here. PvP is different because players are naturally smarter so there is a stronger argument to be made there for sure. It also depends on where you get jumped. If in atmosphere, most of those ships have a hard time getting away due to the nature of atmosphere. In space it is more trivial having tested these scenarios out myself. Ultimately, CIG has to look at the data and feedback and see if additional changes are needed. Undoubtedly so, but it remains to be seen what they decide in the near future.
There is SO MUCH fear and gloom over this. The language being used is so over the top. Let's wait till it's in. Test it as a huge community and watch in aww as the devs adjust it. Shocking
The game is (insert your opinion here) master Mode is (insert your opinion here) CIG is (insert your opinion here) To summarize (insert your opinion here) Get the point? Thanks for reading!
I like the master modes. But in terms of combat I am not experienced enough to say how things will change long-term, I can only tell there are a few things that don't make sense and might be bugs. And in terms of realism it's completely retarded. But at the end of the day I still enjoy the experience I get with the new system.
i was in wave 1, it needs a lot of work but imo It takes a couple of days of playing to get used to the speeds but it has really grown on me. I think in a week a lot of people will be seeing it a little different. Also CIG's obsession with keymapping fubars is legend... most wave 2 people had to get used to the controls being screwed up and the speed slow down but after a week or two master modes feels better then the non MM iimo
MM Combat Mode feels as empty and boring as Elite Dangerous combat, possibly one of the most boring combat/flight models I've ever seen in a space game, for F sake, Freelancer was more fun, and that was over 20 years ago. All you do now is mindlessly circle around each other, there are no other options, might as well stay put and use the ship as stationary turret. It's completely focused on crappy dogfight, this makes ships like the Eclipse, straight up obsolete, it's a hit&run stealth ship, not a dogfighter, the same goes for many cargo ships, or dropships, they aren't made to dogfight, not only that, with that focus, literally makes any stealth focused ship sit in a limbo with nowhere to go, because as mentioned, they are usually hit&run ships, it goes completely against what MM is doing, how are we gonna use those ships? As sniper? a role they where never supposed to be in? I sure as hell won't be using the Raven or the Prowler as a fighter, they ain't made for that.
You can still use stealth ships to their full potential. One way is to sneak in attack and then NAV FLT out. Do NOT use the QT NAV as that spikes your emissions. You can zip around and find a point where you want to strike, drop in close, hit them and then zip out again. The stealth ships are some of the more annoying ships to deal with right now. In our org we started using them as counters against sniper and missile boats since they can get in close and tie them up as those enemy types like to stay far from the fight doing damage and being annoying.
Call me crazy but I like Master Modes. I have seen far fewer accidental collisions. I'm also careful to not enter atmo if I see ships. I use Nav mode as a space brake. Because I use voice control the change was not that bad to learn. I call out the modified commands.
My lack of interest in the (PVP) combat flight model is precisely _why_ I'm still feeling so salty about Master Modes. In no universe should a 400i, a Mercury, and a Corsair fly the same. But for the sake of "balancing" the "Archetypes" in 3.23 they do. In no universe should the 600i, Caterpillar, and Hull-C fly the same. But in 3.23, they do. That's fucked up. But Yogi is awesome and I trust him and his team to unfuck them. So, I'm confident that they will tweak the tunings of the S3-S5 ships so that they fly well and have individual handling again so that they're fun to fly. I'm just hoping it's soon and not Soon™. The changes to the guns sound cool. There will actually be reasons to think about what guns to put on _turrets_ now. High speed, high alpha damage but low magazine capacity makes me think the FL series will be a great turret gun. I'll have to sit down and look at all the stats once 3.23 goes live to decide what goes where. I might be going with the FL-33s on my MIS. And the Lightstrikes look like I might not be gimping my 325a anymore by using them due to how well they blended with the lines of the ship. I just might go back to using Lightstrikes on my 400i again with Attritions on the turret.
I have not touched it at all since they changed it to a generic strength slider. I usually keep my settings default in the PTU to establish a baseline before adjusting, and so far I have not felt like I needed to tweak it yet. Have you tried increasing the strength a bit in the settings?
@@HybridVAudio Even on max I overshoot like crazy. Have the feeling it doesn't do anything. Corrected it a little by adjusting the sensitivity curves of my right stick
@@MrFWStoner Yeah, stick level adjustments are key to get a good feel. I would recommend adjusting the curve at stick level. Turn down ESP to its extreme (either lowest or highest) and adjust to taste from there. Usually helps if you have a buddy that can be a target for you to adjust to.
I think overall theres a lot of negative sentiments because people are far too used to just getting away with 1 movement (trichord). Now i play in a decent level of pvp in SC and the fights in live be more dynamic if they were limited to certain conditions in a team fight like presetting speed limiters to 500m/s, while oyu could have incredible 1v1s if both pilots were capable and willing to push the other. MM dumbs a lot of that down and while it doesnt truly solve the issues you see in a lot of pvp engagements it helps in a lot of ways. MM is going in a good direction for the future of the game . if continued iteration on the FM is actually happening then we have a lot to look forward to as far as potential. I personally enjoy MM a lot, though i think im enjoying experimenting with guns again now that we have more than 1 viable option. to sum my opinions up, MM is going to be good for the game, load of people will not be happy and some may quit, but this isnt the first time CIG has done something like this with similar outcomes and we will see if this is truly the FM that sticks in time.
Statement "vast majority of players is not invested in the flight model"(no supported data). Then proceeds to say sentiments can skew perspective........do i need to point out the obvious?
It works both ways. This is why I said repeatedly that CIG holds the data here and thus it is up to them on whether they want to disclose that or not. I can only speak from experience having played and covering this game for many years. The vast majority of people from my own personal experience are just not that heavily invested in the FM because they are more interested in the loops they want to take part in. Only a very small minority of individuals are highly invested in the FM and how that FM translates into combat related tasks such as PvP.
@@HybridVAudioSo wouldn't it make sense to listen to the people who actually know the flight model and have learned it and are skilled with it? Why would it make sense to listen to the people who don't care about flying around and only care about mining and cargo hauling and stuff like that?
@@MrKill_SCYou’re assuming they are not listening to the feedback of this very loud minority. There are competing requirements here, which is why they keep iterating and trying different things to find what feels good. One of those requirements competing with the opinions of the vocal minority, is to make combat more approachable, rather than dissuading players from combat because they still get their butts kicked in a 5 on 1 contest against a seasoned combat pilot. The old flight model is frustrating to new players, and even many not so new players. The balance is too far toward the aces. They should be better, but not the way it has been. Then add in their desire to reduce speeds for other reasons, like desync and actually being able to hit or unskilled players not uncontrollably jousting… or the arbitrary desire to have CLOSER combat to show off the pretty ships…. and ultimately you get a lot of counterweight to the opinions of the loud light fighter PvP crowd.
@@MrKill_SC Because people who fly around and only care about mining and cargo hauling are just as important to the life blood of the game as the AC PvP sweat lords are. Not all interactions in the verse will be 100% combat oriented. There has to be some level of give and take.
@@brad433 why do you keep saying vocal minority? What makes you think it's only minority who doesn't like Master modes? If you go on spectrum (which on spectrum, there's more people that actually play the game then the commenters on UA-cam) you can see that people are not liking master modes. If the majority of people did like Master modes there would be more upvotes on all of the positive comments. There may have been more now because of this weird campaign by all the streamers and content creators and people who generally aren't playing the game very much but are only agreeing with these people and supporting their opinions. I actually see a lot of people calling out the stuff that is wrong in master modes like the fact that it completely kills racing, 1v1 dog fights, and generally makes the game more unfun, amongst many other things. Hybrid v is right, CIG is the only one with the numbers. I'm just going off of what I am seeing. I have been with this project since 2013. I play daily and have put in thousands of hours. I want this game to succeed with every ounce of my being. This is my dream game and I want it to be the funniest for everyone. It's going to need to be challenging though. One of the games that was mentioned by Chris Roberts and compared to Star Citizen at the very beginning of this project, was Demon's Souls. People are going to need to get better and learn. People really aren't bothering to learn to fly.
Cinematic first person combat is a childish goal to have for a sim like SC. I miss the speed during combat, it felt exciting. I felt like the hero of my own story and didn’t need banal tricks like limiting my speed to tell me how to feel. We have the Reliant Mako for a shot-in-game “cinematics” they could just leave it at that. Let me joust and make mistakes and learn the depth of combat from the veteran pilots. The humbling moments getting stomped is a spectacle. TF2 was great for that reason, seeing someone fly across the map is amusing even if you die. SC has a brutal respawn so much more painful. But I still think being met with that skill difference is the mark of an authentic, fun, and deep game. Idk I’m ranting bc I hate seeing the game like this. It’s not the same game anymore. I just was the MM nightmare to end.
ref AI ships having less health; this is one thing I do not like at all. It makes for a lot of baseless cheating accusations. Same for NPCs doing less damage. If CIG wants to make it easier for people to beat NPC ships those ships should be spawned in a damaged state so it's already obvious on scanners that these have "less HP" (or whatever the equivalen is going to be for maelstorm), have them be missing guns for reduced damage output etc. Making NPCs magically weaker (or stronger) by simply adjusting modifiers in the background is bad for everything; it hurts immersion, causes baseless accusations of cheating, etc.
Seems like someone wanted the combat to be like Starfield's >.< A speed limit defies physics in space. Fair enough when entering quantum, shields, weapons, engines shutdown for sciency reasons etc.
For me master mode isn't to bad the two things that i don't like it ls that you slow to 30km when landing gear comes out i dont like that since i can slide around i did figured out a way to do it and the shaking of the ship when you are flying at high speeds i think thats point less if it was to just shake when on plant sure but in space shouldn't shake like its ready to fall a part thats what it feels like to me but i did find out in master modes the taurus flys really good best ship i found flys like a heavy fighter could just be me but i would give it a try
Saying "solo is over" is just not correct. There will always be places and times players can solo, there will be a risk/reward aspects to that choice, and even limits - this follows the "player choice" rule. This is my 3rd flight model change, and I'm actually a fan of master modes - but no matter what the flight model is, solo will always be an option.
*sarcasm* Oh great, another CIG shill talking about how master modes is better and will be "even better in the future!!" *sarcasm off* Great video with great takeaways. I appreciate your perspective.
Saying SC is PVE focused is a bit short sighted. At present it exists this way but fast foward to a single server with 150k people in it and nearly everything with be primarily PVP, combat and non-combat related things. And you can be assured PVP will happen as a part of day to day life. The human element of the game is unavoidable and necessary in a 'sandbox' player driven universe environment.
Gee I wish there is something that could be done about the increased vulnerability of non-combat ships in nav mode. But things like increasing hull hp/armor have not been invented in games yet, so I guess whining is the only reasonable reaction.
You say ppl have to have escorts in the Stanton system because they get killed by NPC's with the new system. That would be true for a lawless places like Pyro. Stanton should be high security where you should feel safe as a new player. More like high sec in Eve online. The police/protection/crime systems have not improved over a long time and there is no real punishment's if you pirate. Crime stat is a joke atm.
Great video Hybrid. I am one of those people who jumped at CIG's throat on the initial impression that my Cutty Red's speeds were reduced. After doing some side by side time tests I found that I was wrong. I still have some concerns about no shields during access to highest speeds, but I'll have to see where they end up with it. Regarding feedback to the devs, I absolutely feel like anything I contribute whether on Spectrum or IC, just goes in the trash can. That feeling doesn't subside.
I've stopped playing as when its lagged it makes master mode too clunky for an enjoyable experience, I have found modes dont switch when I need them to and sometimes get stuck, so you I spent way too much time getting in and out of my ieat trying reset it. - was frustrating so am on a break until they get it fixed, in the meantime I just bought a python mk2 in elite and having a blast so no biggie I got something to keep me occupied until CIG gets it fixed..
If players feel there is something wrong, then there is something wrong. In this case it's not the game, it's the developer. They are fishing in the mud for a flight model since 0.9. Over 10 years now. In 2.6 they already tried to make combat slower and players hated it. Now they are making the same mistake again. This fact alone shows the aimlessness or should I say helplessness of this part of the project's development, let alone other areas. They are still theory crafting. "We are discussing this right now" tm.
Playing devil's advocate for a moment, even: "I don't like it", is valid feedback. The burden of proof that MM is good is on CIG when they radically change the way ships fly in a space game. A lot of the feedback concentrates on their changes not solving what they are supposed to solve, like endless jousting. You really don't touch on that at all. The complexity argument is something you kind of wave over, but did you count the number of new keybinds? And how many did we already have? And then you basically skip over that by saying we'll get used to it. Even the ships feeling like you have barely any control over them you wave away by saying that's 'by design'. That's the whole point of the objection: it's a bad design if things feel like that. I love your videos and you have every right to your opinion, but this video makes it a little too clear that you like MM and think others should as well to be considered objective. I'm not in the camp of harassing CIG or the developers with emotional, childish outbursts. I'll definitely give you that. However, for now, for me, MM is a huge step backwards. I'm no heavily invested PVP sweat or anything, but I enjoyed the odd space fight. I genuinely dislike doing any form of ship combat in the game now.
So far, I dont like them. Why does a cargo ship need a flight and combat mode? Why cant I just fly? Why do I have to trade my shields just to go full speed? I AM A CARGO SHIP!?
The light fighter pilots that have an ego and are finally realizing they cant fly circles around gunships are the ones crying the loudest. My hammerhead runs on their tears. Ive patiently waited for my big ships to be more relevant. And before you hate. I own 2 light fighters and a glaive as well. I enjoy them equally but I find them op.
I am not even a pvper , and doing mostly pve , and with combat usually just against NPC hostile, with MM, its just too frustrating for me to fly and combat with ships now lol...but hey what do I know, am just a guy , some said they like it, well good on them, but not for me. MM feels arcadey , didnt feel like a flight sim like it's used to be. I just said this as normal player who just see how MM manifested in live server, so I am not evocati level or those backers who spend so much money that they can get early access into test server . I noticed on spectrum that MM is affecting mostly on pvp players but I think its also affecting pve players as well
The real question is how much time 15 min? 30 min? 1 hour each time we meet a kid logged into a fighter to bully cargo folks?? What the hell are they doing they have fighters that can’t carry our cargo anyway! How many hours a week are we gonna have to donate to jagging off a ganker camping a landing zone before I can store the damn fighter planes and go back to what I wanted to fly in the first place???? Send them all to a sand box or another game!! BTW World of Warcraft arena is what killed PvP in the open world that plus city queue. Before city queue we had multiple tarren mill vs southshores and happy gang guilds which coordinated world pvp into something more than just “Ganking”!! I think you want that for this not arena with its small forced boundaries and opponents picked for you. I think they made arena commander for you arena players who consider the game as 2-5 player battles where the universe is your background you don’t need to have regular non fighting ships to pick on until CIG evens the odds for us non fighter jouster hide n seek players. Give other players an incentive for crewing or give me AI crewing and I don’t need to become a fighter pilot! Solved.
My main problem isn't that it's all bad... No, Master Modes does have potential but it has some glaring issues right now that are just making the game Murder Hobo Central. Now these are not your run of the mill PvPers... I have no issue with them in fact I mix it up with PvP a little myself and never shy away from it. No these are the opportunists that will use exploits or other means to get quick easy kills so they can shit talk. These are not PvPers they are straight up Player Killers. Xenothreat is overrun with them right now. These are the bottom feeders in the PvP ranks. Master Modes has enabled this... period. If CIG does not correct it they will lose a substantial portion of their playerbase. Now I'm not saying ditching it completely is the answer either. Right now with Master Modes a very large portion of the player base are upset as it seems like CIG sold them a bill of goods at this point. People were told that this game would support all play styles but right now it's a PvP gankfest. I also can't quite put my finger on why exactly but the game feels a lot more Arcade now and much less Sim. This is a combination of Master Modes and the new UI. About the new UI... I'm going to be perfectly honest here... the new UI is a cluttered mess. You can't even see your targets half of the time because of the HUGE labels on absolutely everything. It's a confusing cluttered mess. They really need to clean it up... a lot. Master Modes isn't all bad but it needs a lot of work. For one thing no shields in Nav Mode is just a mistake. It you want shut down recharge but leave them up so you have at least some protection. This way they would have to eat through your shields giving you a little more time to escape. Or have them dissipate at a much slower rate then just gone in a second. Nav mode just gives Gankers a free pass to do damage right now and that is it. Some ships can be killed in a couple of seconds with no shields. All this does is give the bottom feeders free kills... as many as they want. The game right now is designed to drive half the playerbase away from this game. If Star Citizen is to have a future they have to cater to the carebears as well as the edgelords. Neither side can support this monolith of a game on their own. It will fail and the last 12 years will be for naught.
Well all I have to say to the people who are complaining about the changes is what they have always said to the rest of us when it comes to flying. Git gud😅 seriously though, im terrible and have to learn the system and if it is more realistic overall, then so be it
What some need to realise is......MM's is here, and CIG are not going to backtrack, Hey!, i wish we could have the old simplified mining from 4 yrs ago, but its gone.....move on. Whether anyone likes it or not, the simple fact is we'll get used to it, we singned up for the lang haul, and its all written in the small print, some will just have to man-up and grow a pair, master modes is fun, and as much as i find it pretty daunting, i am growing to realise, its well thought out and very granular.
CIG just declared death sentence on solo players like me. If CIG does not release the AI blades as soon as possible, then I'm deciding not to play the game until they add this feature, because it is impossible for me to maintain as active as I am right now if I know it is gonna be easier for me to get robbed during solo cargo hauling.
So like I started following SC for the realism aspect of it I always loved realism in my games is why I play games like war thunder over other games like world of tanks, war thunder it has a much greater focus on simulation and realism and also it is a great simcade at that because it still very accessible so simply the realism of the current model si what I love about it and it's accessible and easy to learn hard to master I was never focused on PvP and never upset at meeting a high skill PvP player I am not one to get mad at how bad I fly I’m not good on war thunder when it comes to flying either. That aside The main thing that bother me on MM is that its dumbing down the flight in order to make it more arcade less sim so people can learn and master it easily and I left Elite Dangerous exactly for that problem ED has such a simplistic flight model that your ship flies on rails you have no true freedom of flight unless you go full assists off where the ship is near uncontrollable unless you have a physics degree SC was able to give me the freedom I so much desired while still being extremely easy to handle now they are taking away that freedom and that scares me. Not that MM is bad its well its really boring and I hate it but whatever the ships don't fly all that much different since I always did PvE only I see no difference whatsoever but I know the vision this strange idea of chris for WW2 fights in space and it scares me for the future when they see that MM is not WW2 in space and they restrict your flight more and more until we have ED 2 hopefully that won't be the case and maybe we will get some speed increase later so flying in scm is more fun. Also in a good note I LOVE the changes to weapons because It was always very boring how guns felt all the same in the game and there was no real diversity on the guns you choose other than looks.
Change will always be scary, but ultimately it is important to remember that things can and will continue to change and improve over time. Especially, as CIG continues to collect more player data and feedback. Ultimately, this game is CR's baby and this is why they moved to this type of FM since it is a lot more in line with his older games that he was famous for. They tried other ideas through the years and ultimately, it looks like they want to settle on this style.
@@HybridVAudio no matter how you put it mm is a downgrade in order to make the current flight model more accessible it will always be that for me and I'll never like it but it doesn't ruin the game its just meh i just have less reasons to fly the engineering looks more interesting than anything combat has to offer in the game so I'll just wait for barotrauma in space
It's kinda funny, all the people I know who hate master modes also suck at DCS and are perpetually hard stuck in other games. I like the idea of master modes, I just think it's a template that's got a lot of blank slots that gotta be filled. I would feel way differently if we didn't know that this was going to be a way harder game already, Master modes have been in testing for over 6 months now on live. Now we're in a position where we've gone from the experimental mode where they were asking us for feedback to the implementation, and all the people who didn't want to give any feedback on the foundation now demand to be heard after they finalize shit...
People that have tried Master Mode in PU are people that put a lot of time, a lot of money into the game or are content creator. That the worst echo chamber of crying doomers… 😅 So not surprised with the feedback.
So are you saying that people who have not tried Master modes haven't put any time in? Then why should we listen to those people? I'm just trying to understand what you're saying dude. Most of the content creators that I'm seeing are enjoying master modes or at least acting like it.
I am so disappointed with your take here. saying Star Citizen is a Pve game and that someone else should go make a gape for the PvPrs is pathetic. It is also untrue CIG said it was a PvP game. It is a sandbox
The non combat pilots who are moaning only feel like they’re getting shafted because the don’t practice the new techniques on how to escape. You have to think about how and when instead of just pressing the dumb go button and many of them don’t want to have to think and practice. But on MM the only thing I don’t like about it is the non 45’s, 45ing had a style and a feel to it that just hits the spot. Having to just use pitch feels too basic and a bit simplistic
Honestly, master modes is a complete waste of time. CIG will have to keep balancing MM forever because it will never be good enough for 0.5% of players who want it. The whole switching modes and slowing down fights is utterly trash IMO. But whatever, this isn't the game I backed and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. So this is my 2 cents in a sea of burned cash
Master modes is so unrealistic it's beyond dumb. Want to fly from space straight down to a planet surface with no loading screens, well now you do that at walking pace or quickly but without shields and your quantum drive engaged, wtf? Want to transport that sensitive Zeta Prolonide to the other side of the planet, well your doing it without shields, excuse me? Uncoupled flight in space, you just boosted up to 300ms no boost left, no, hold on, we have magic boost to slow you back down to scm speed, wtf, uncoupled flight or not? Ship showroom sandbox needs a better director IMO.
Dude you spent the majority of the time attacking the motives people who are criticizing the flight model rather than the arguments themselves. I too read nearly every post in that gargantuan feedback thread and there were many valid points made. You are making the judgement that 'some people just don't like it because it's different' the counter to that is 'some people just like it because it's new.' See what I did there? You call it a 'vocal minority' but that's based on conjecture as well. I agree just attacking the devs and insulting them is not constructive, but neither is dismissing feedback when feedback is asked for. Here's the crux of what I find in common with most of the dissenting arguments. Flight does not feel good. It does not feel good or natural to run into an artificial wall at 200 m/s in my ultra futuristic and expensive space fighter. A fighter jet from 2024 can outrun a gladius. It does not feel good to have the magical space brakes slammed whenever I let off the boost in SPACE. It does not feel good when my enemy is casually backstrafing me and keeping me nose to nose while I am being punished by the game for maneuvering and pushing aggressively. You mischaracterize these pilots when you dismiss their concerns as not having spent enough time with master modes. Many in the racing and PvP community who are the most vocal critics of mastermodes are also the ones who have spent hundreds of hours there teasing out all the details and quirks that CIG themselves didn't even know about. They have contributed volumes of feedback and testing and can dominate an arena commander lobby just as easily in master modes as they can in the live FM. You should acknowledge that if a sizable portion of experienced, dedicated pilots say it's not fun, then maybe it's not as fun as it should be.
I mentioned in that section in the caption that context matters. Which you seem to agree to since we both agree that the negativity, particularly those with nothing to say other than berating the devs is bad. So, I'm not sure what you are arguing here. "A fighter jet from 2024 can outrun a gladius" You're making a realism argument, which I addressed later in the video and subsequent replies here to the same effect. Realism isn't the overarching goal of MM, never has been. Nor would I agree that it would need to be necessary, and this is coming from someone with a milsim background. Realism is not the most compelling argument when you are trying to go for something very specific in mind. "You mischaracterize these pilots when you dismiss their concerns as not having spent enough time with master modes" Can you point to where in the video I specifically said that they have not spent a lot of time with MM?
@@HybridVAudio 10:00 in the video. "they realize they are not very good at it" I contest that because people like G-LOK and AV1 amongst others are vocal critics of MM while being VERY GOOD at it having spent more time in MM over the last 6 months than your average spectrum commenter. In regards to the Gladius being slow compared to a modern jet fighter, that was not in any way a 'realism' argument. It was a 'fun' argument. It's not fun to fly something that's supposed to go fast but FEELS slow. The absolute numbers don't matter whatsoever, it's purely relative visceral feeling. We all know what it feels like to go speeding down a highway. When I pass a corsair and I can count "one one-thousand, two one-thousand, three one-thousand" as I leisurely float by, that doesn't FEEL fast. I'm not trying to be combative here. I've been a long time subscriber of your channel and you've always put out quality content, but I feel like we are all emotionally invested in the outcome of the flight model and strawman arguments are entirely unhelpful.
It will get better. I already like the new MM mode in AC more than normal. Oddly enough, I'm better at the new MM than the old system. I just wish I could use my Arrow in MM.
I agree with your outlook overall.. But you need to realize that there will be tons of time in this game where you will be doing things alone. You can not depend on the weekend warriors and the after work dads. Also a lot of people enjoy doing things solo, especially when it comes to making money. There is nothing wrong with risk. I am a pirate. My group has 100+ members. But you still can not rely on others every time you want to do something. There needs to be a balance.. like eve online has. And it will take you longer to do tasks on your own, but you get all the reward. Also good luck getting your org to pack boxes and do logistics... a small group of people will be the ones doing the heavy lifting.. like it is in every mmo. And the others just show up for the party. The greatest risks and best rewards are often from the mountains you conquer on your own. But maybe thats the difference in leaders and followers. CIG has also said many times that they realize the majority of their players do solo game play and they are going to make sure we can.. they literally just talked about this. No matter what you think, you will be playing solo.
Have you tried Arena commander swarm? I wouldn't call it "slow down" gameplay, because now it is harder to get distance from multiple enemies - you have to evade and fight. It is a 1 to many dogfight more often then it was before.
@@alexpetrov8871 I upvote and dislike the things that I agree with or disagree with. Sure, you can say that we are promoting him by interacting. That is true. But that is always been true for everything that you interact with. You make that thing known. But what is also true is that you make what you think about that thing known and that is more powerful.
There is a lot more I wanted to talk about but the runtime was getting lengthy. For example, CIG has very generic tunings on a lot of ships currently in the PTU. This means that the Vanguard and Lightning both perform identically for example. These is not the final tunings of course as CIG just set a lot of ships to generic archetypes before they do further tuning passes later. And part of this is why people were mad as they did not realize their favorite ship was not fully tuned yet. So, if you were for example, a Lightning fan and tried it out in MM, you would be massively disappointed in how it performed. This is also the same for alien ships, which currently just have archetype copy paste jobs on their flight profiles as well.
-
MM is not perfect, nor will it ever be, much like the old model. But looking past that, you have to see the broader picture of what CIG is going for. One that I see a lot of people overlooking when defending the old flight model, particularly form a PvP-centric lens. Again, this game never was intended to be a primarily PvP focused game as CIG and CR has stated time and time again that AI will vastly outnumber players in the verse. And as a result, the vast majority of players will be interacting with PvE elements far more than PvP ones, and the model needs to cater to that necessity while still keeping things interesting. I know some people will say the old model did, and the reality is that it simply didn't, not unless you already knew what you were doing.
Some would say that a proper flight tutorial would had fixed these issues rather than having to redo the model, but that same argument can be made in regards to MM as well, so this not really a strong argument here imo. Even so, there are hundreds of hours of guides both on Spectrum, Hub, and social media platforms like YT that covered combat in the old model and yet people still felt frustrated by it to the point that they would put it down just as fast as they tried to pick it up.
-
But beyond the initial negative feedback, there were still a lot of useful nuggets of feedback for CIG to comb through. For example, UI elements such as targeting can get lost sometimes when outside the periphery, which is not a problem with the old UI.
Continuing with the UI, the icon overload can be an issue as well with lots of hostile targets floating around. It can be annoying picking through those targets at given moments.
And lastly, as a multi-crew fan, it still has some ways to go. Currently, it takes only a second or two for ballistics to knock out turrets on larger ships, from ships firing at far ranges. Counter maneuvers can help a bit but you will just lose turrets quickly over time regardless. A lot of work still needs to be done on this front currently. One solution is to improve projectile speeds of turrets to deal with range cheese, but consider how low damage range cheese does anyway to moving large targets, a simpler solution is to strengthen turret HP and increase the dispersion of smaller cannons over longer ranges.
Anyway, be sure to let me know your thoughts. I look forward to seeing what CIG does with this new model throughout the year and beyond.
I'll see you all in the next one.
o7
The hard part is the initial conversion. Now they can polish and tweak.
While on paper similar I could swear the F8 has snappier handling than the Vanguards.
That is largely true. I made a few comments about how I disliked it and some features it really needed and a few patches later (EG: NAV FLT), they were in. Not because I wanted them, I'm sure, it just takes time for them to roll them out. All this means CIG could have avoided a lot of negativity if they did the base tunings before we got it of course.
On the whole, we need MM, though a lot of people seem have said they loved it because of the new speeds. Something that we could all limit with the speed limiter before so I don't get that. It was the first thing I set in a fight. They also say that it will make PvPers not have such an edge. Which is rubbish. PvPers uses the same flight model we do. Good PvPers are just good at combat and they spend a lot of time learning to use the systems the best. I wish I was that keen.
Some of my negativity still remains because we are more tactically constrained on entering the flight. We had near infinite options before. Now, with shields and weapons only on at SCM, it does limit it. Limit, not completely negate... It makes defensive strategies a bit easier.
I still don't think we *need* the big switching delay, which is my pet dislike. But as always, I fly the model I'm given so I'll make it work just like every model before this one.
Oh, yeah. CIG said in an ICS that it was to help combat circle strafing and BnZ in the old model. It was funny to hear in ICS that the new AI combat model now supports those two tactics. I don't get that either.
pretty hard to listen to as quite often your resort to the same tactics as those "emotional" nay sayers. pretty much a white knight performance.
The A1 vid just posted sums it up pretty well.
I do not have enough experience with the old or new flight models in combat to compare them in any meaningful way, but there are things I do not like about how MM is being done.
The first is their admission that they are treating combat focused ships and non-combat focused ships the same. When in combat, or there is the potential to get into combat, the objectives of the pilot and any crew would be very different, and the flight model should reflect that.
The second is that everything that makes different ships fly and feel different, they just discarded in favor of starting from scratch with archetypes that bundle seemingly bundle together ships that currently fly very differently, and are currently only doing basic tuning for them. I expect that once 3.23 comes out, MM tuning will probably not be a priority, so it may take years to go through each ship. I also suspect that combat focused ships will get tuned quicker then non-combat focused ships. I'm not wave 2 though so I can't see how badly any of my ships will fly in MM. And I don't know for sure if they'll open EPTU/PTU up to all backers before 3.23 drops.
I also have concerns about the ability of non-combat focused ships survivability in atmosphere when attacked by combat focused ships. (And potentially have concerns about how QED, distortion weapons, and maybe even EMP will work in MM, and I don't exactly know how they all work in the EPTU. Of course, I'm still not exactly how EMP is even supposed to work in Live, even though I have a ship with it.)
If you are someone that spent 10 million uec worth of cargo, or spent the last three hours mining for quantanium, you'll probably want to avoid fighting as much as possible. Currently, in 3.22, one of the ways, if you were to encounter pirates, was to just throttle up and have your gunners shoot back while you try to spool and calibrate your QD. With these master modes, you can no longer do that. You are either forced to stay in combat, or will take massive amount of damage (and most likely soft death) before your ship even hits higher speeds.
Like you said, if you are coming against a Hammerhead, and want to runaway, while your shields are buffering, they are also taking damage, and you are unable to shoot back... so why do I need gunners?
And if I choose to stay and fight... well... a lot of SC player base don't really care for the PvP aspect. They understood there was that risk, but they were also comforted by the fact they had the chance the try and escape without having to engage in a dogfight, but rather a shoot and flee scenario that had as much chance to succeed as to fail.
With this new approach, they'll basically be force to fight. And as basically your approach in the video is: "Just get good at dogfighting".
Combat had a lot of issues... forcing you into staying in it, or massively hindering you when trying to escape it, is not the solution.
I am curious if they are going to look at the turret behaviors for larger ships when enter QT mode. Because if ships can enter QT nav mode but still defend themselves, then this may make running a bit smoother for the larger ships. But also make combat interesting for those giving chase. Having tested multi-crew against these scenarios, we generally found it to not be an issue against smaller threats, but bigger threats like Ions and Infernos is a whole different kettle of fish.
@@HybridVAudio CIG is trying to fix the "speed" issue by actually restraining your speed... and to me, that's not the solution. Arbitrarily taking control away from the player is not the same as giving the player a challenge. They could've made the targeting system become more inaccurate at higher speeds, or the shield recharge rate drop relative to speed, or having higher power fluctuations or overheat at higher speeds, they could even make the QD spool drop with each weapon hit. They could hinder adjacent systems the faster you go. This would encourage players to stay below SCM to have a fully functioning ship, but present them (on both sides) with bigger challenges when going faster.
I just don't think this is the way to go. Combat balances seem to be ok, but still a bit more work. But forcing non-combat players to stay in combat because the alternative is even worse, will probably make people less interested in SC... until one day all we have are just pure PvP people.
@@DavidLimaGoncalves Those are all legitimate methods to accomplish the aim of slowing things down. I don’t think they’re particularly better or worse than doing so arbitrarily by “mode.” The problem cases can be addressed in many ways under either method.
Make solo industrial ships tougher or faster to improve that balance. Keep weapons but lose shields while spooling to allow turret use and maybe weapon strength declines with QT assisted speed. These can all be done and still under MM.
It’s all arbitrary penalties however they pull them off.
Idk, one could argue it’s too easy to escape from combat in the old model. Gotta find the right balance.
@@brad433 I agree that it was way too easy to just escape, but "Escape & Chase" and Dogfighting are 2 different concepts, that require you to play differently. Right now, CIG seems to be imposing the latter on you, by, not only making the first one nearly impossible or heavily punished, but also removing the "fight your way out"... there is no fight in NAV mode... none... other than ramming other ships.
And my issue is that both the wait times between MM and turning off shields and weapons feel like the game is taking control out of you (the player), for no other reason than: "You have to fight, there is no alternative, you either fight, or risk getting blown away before being able to reach high speeds".
And add that to the fact, that it seems that ships like the Mantis not only will be able to prevent you from going into QT, but will lock you into SCM. So basically, if you are someone that accepts that PvP is in the game, but your tactic is to run away, well... you can't.
@@DavidLimaGoncalves I’m hearing you, but not hearing you suggest any alternative. You agree it has been too easy to escape. Spool times and losing shields increases risk for running. It’s harder to escape unscathed. It’s a proper goal, and remember, any method they use is going to be an arbitrary limitation preventing you from just jumping away. So all we’re really talking about is balance. It should take some effort to escape. It shouldn’t be easy, and it shouldn’t be impossible.
the one thing that erks me about the keybind changes is they havent updated the keybind map and you have to go digging to find what the binds have actually changed to
Yeah, they sorely need to update that ancient keybinds menu/map. I know Yogi said they will at some point. Soon can't come soon enough if you ask me.
That's a problem only casuals have who don't even bother customizing their keybinds.
Since traders are the only people actually risking anything in this game, I only do it when I have auec to blow. I threw 25+ million auec at the Hull C before giving up. If I want to grind credits risk-free, I do combat.
As a pvp pilot i hope we get back to the system where your ship gear is returned stock with bad componets when you get them from insurance, and that it takes longer. I want risk, as it is now i agree.
Don't forget about AI crew members. Soloing big ships will be a thing with AI crew. (Probably in like 5 years though..)
yeah and they always said it will be less effective then real crew... so what is your point?
@@Jakob3xD I think you read my point :)
or 10.. you underestimate how hard it can be to make good AI.
Also it's an incredible design challenge if you're supposed to be able to communicate with them while you fly.
I don't believe soloing big ships in combat will ever be a thing. Actually I believe AI crew will be limited to passengers, turret gunners (where an AI blade would work the exact same way) and guards if not totally scrapped altogether. Other than that and you're in the realm of having to design a command / input system to order your crew while you pilot that will probably be either very annoying to use or very overpowered.
I wouldn't hold my breath for it. Right now, have the mindset that there won't be AI crew and you just can't fly a large ship solo. You want to fly a large ship? Hire some player to fly with, don't be awkward, it's an mmo.
The reality is that until we can get NPC crew, you have to find players willing to work under me on my ship vs playing on the ships they payed for. Until those cargo loads are worth a flat stupid amount of cash. You cant afford to pay enough even if you could find people willing to do it every run for as long as you are playing, every time you are playing. It is just not going to work until we CAN hire on those npc crew when players just are not available.. which will be most of the time for most people.
It is not a problem of it not working, it is a problem of it not working until we actually have to tools to make it work and we only have a screwdriver at the moment instead of the whole tool box.
As it sits now, we end up with light ship pilots, a very few big org large ships fully crewed during prime time, and rapidly no one else as normal players get online and realize that they can no longer use the ships they own.
I love the way things are going, but it just can not work yet. They need to pause some of this until we do get the rest of the tool box.
That isn’t the reality at all. I play multi-crew the majority of my time in the PU. Nobody in my groups is “working under” anyone, and whose ship it is varies. It plays out like this: log into game, see some people your friends with, send party invites or join in discords to get together for multicrew. If they don’t join you fall back to smaller ships.
The pay is high enough. Multicrewing a reclaimer has been one of the most profitable things in the game even after the split. People are just greedy and think they should make the same amount by soloing what’s intended to be multiplayer compensation. Well, hopefully that ceases to be as viable and maybe multicrewing can be the most profitable after the split, but not reliable solo.
Personally don’t like the AI blade/crew concept as it works against multiplayer gameplay. If it ever comes, I hope it’s prohibitively expensive. Something to nerf the solo profitability. Player multicrewing should be more profitable per capita than anything else because there’s more effort to arrange and coordination involved.
And you knew all that when you brought the ships, it all catches up to you eventually. It can work and it does work, its just for you, you need to go away and come back in 2-3 yrs, you're not mentally willing to accept the status quo. CIG have invested years in building the dream, devising the tools, yet if you've spent your time gushing over your purchase and laughing to your friends about ''AI Blades and NPC Crew''...saving the day, and yeah! we can all say the acronyms and cool words, you have been living in denial and foolish. Sucks being you
The idea that we have to use the quantum drive to consistently travel at speeds that most people have personally traveled at on a commercial airliner feels incredibly silly.
The biggest problem is that CIG is looking at things in terms of arcade tournament sportsmanlike contests instead of creating a world that feels like you're actually living it, and all aspects of the game are getting warped to fit this one concept of creating "cinematic" arcade ship combat.
The hugest problem with this is "cinematic" is a terrible goal for a first person vehicle combat game, because "cinematic" is achieved by camera trickery in films, with multiple angles and camera zoom. When you try to force this into a constant first person perspective you wind up trying to force the *one constant viewpoint* into having the most cinematic views, this by its very nature limits your movement to be stuck to what would normally be done with camerawork instead.
WTF are you talking about? What commercial airplane goes 1k-2k mph?
You clearly don't even play the game. And you don't have to go into quantum mode to go max speeds, you go into nav mode, of which quantum is not the only one.
"The biggest problem is that CIG is looking at things in terms of arcade tournament sportsmanlike contests instead of creating a world that feels like you're actually living it, and all aspects of the game are getting warped to fit this one concept of creating "cinematic" arcade ship combat."
No, the biggest problem is that clueless idiots like you are the loudest when not even understanding wtf they are complaining about.
Yeah. Cinematic first person combat is a childish goal to have for a sim like SC. I miss the speed during combat, it felt exciting. I felt like the hero of my own story and didn’t need banal tricks like limiting my speed to tell me how to feel. We have the Reliant Mako for a shot-in-game “cinematics” they could just leave it at that
Let me joust and make mistakes and learn the depth of combat from the veteran pilots. The humbling moments getting stomped is a spectacle. TF2 was great for that reason, seeing someone fly across the map is amusing even if you die. SC has a brutal respawn so much more painful. But I still think being met with that skill difference is the mark of an authentic, fun, and deep game. Idk I’m ranting bc I hate seeing the game like this. It’s not the same game anymore. I just was the MM nightmare to end.
@@club2772 Cinematic first person cinematic combat in general is bad. It requires a massive reduction in player agency in order to get the camera angles that would be normally done with virtual cameras in a CGI movie or with third party cameras if you were shooting practically (e.g. chase planes for a movie about jets).
You basically have to force the player to become a cameraman whether they like it or not, and really the only way to make it work properly is to turn it into a rail shooter (which is what Ace Combat: Assault Horizon did with Dogfight Mode).
7:00 - The problem with the whole "hiring escorts" thing is and has always been that after two or three rounds of "paying escorts" I have no money left to trade at all.
if you pay more money for your escorts than the route will reward, im pretty sure it wont worth lol
Absolutely. The shitty economy we have right now is made for solo traders.
Imagine if you are in a caterpillar : 1 pilot, 1 copilote, 1 engineer, 2 gunners, and 2 or 3 more guys for the escort. 8 people to pay ! The money we make in trading right now can't support all of this !
C2 solo Trading is Fine you just need to be smart about what you are jumping into. You will have to plan your jumps so you do not jump into into a bounty zone or PvP hot spot. I know there are a LOT of people out there that Hate solo traders. No Solo trading will be fine but it will require people to play smart. In fact Solo trading will be the VAST majority of traders. When the new cargo comes in we will not be taking large ship to the small trade sites anyway. We will be going to the larger trade centers. little ships will go to the smaller places.
The playing smart part is very true, there are many ways to avoid pilots but it takes extra effort and knowledge (learning the game) And it’s the same with MM, you now have to think about how and when to escape and not just pressing the run away button
@@0Metatron I totally agree man. People should learn a lot of what they need to know running the smaller ships as they work there way up to the larger stuff. Still you will lose a load from time to time but over all not having to split the profits makes it worth running solo.
I've been mulling over this for a few days as I try running Pirate Swarm in a variety of fighters, and I'm not even sure the issues I'm seeing are all directly due to MM. I think restricting combat to lower speeds has actually brought some other long-standing issues with combat to the forefront. Unfortunately, everything is changing all at once, and it's really tough to pick out a root cause.
When speed wasn't capped by MM, I would go through stages of combat, usually uncapping my SCM speed for evasive maneuvers when I needed to get some distance, and coming back in before dialing it back down once I was in range. I had the ability to evade when I needed, and re-engage.
Now, those evasive cycles just can't happen, and I'm realizing what's going on that made them necessary in the first place. If you go head-to-head with another target... you never merge. You just don't. You can gun the engines and boost all you want, but your target is going to back-strafe and slide all over to keep you in his sights. It doesn't seem limited to lighter craft either, ships just seem able to stay locked head-to-head for extended periods, and never cross paths or break off. It happens eventually, but it just feels unnatural how long something like a Reliant can just circle strafe while you try to approach it.
The whole thing is making me question exactly why strafing thrusters are so strong. Why can't my main engine push me fast enough to close the distance with another ship back-strafing? I may be missing something crucial, but this isn't even against players, this is just AI doing this in combat.
The worst part of all of this is that it came at the same time as a massive rebalance of every weapon and ship, to the point where it's really hard to pin down what's causing any of it. Too many variables all changing at once, and it's easy to blame MM for the lot of it, when it might only be a trigger that showed us _many_ broken facets.
The ship rebalancing feels terrible though. I know they want heavy fighters to be less nimble than lights and mediums.. but when I'm having trouble outmaneuvering a Corsair in an F8 Lightning, something is _really_ out of whack.
Your first point is my biggest issue with MM. In a ship that is basically a gun with engines strapped to it, why am I not allowed to run away? Isn't running away admitting defeat, or is everyone just extremely bloodthirsty? If your just fighting to fight, then yea I can understand why you would like MM. But as someone who is thinking about objective based fights (eg. having air superiority over a compound that you have a bunch of guys raiding, protecting the cargo ship from pirates) jousting just means you lose. Winning isn't always about blowing the other ships up.
These are my preferred changes to the CURRENT flight model/reasons why its not as bad as people think, just know I dont hate master modes. I just think it's trying to solve a problem that is only an issue because there isnt any objective other than blow up the other guy.
-If they wanted to keep light fighters having ridiculous speed, why not just lower the damage they do? Force people that want to use fighters to have a SQUAD of fighters to actually do damage to larger vessels. Doing solo runs on a target shouldn't stop their shield from recharging, 6 guys doing runs should.
-I've also seen lots of people put cannons on their ship and then complain about fighters, sir you do know cannons have slow projectile speed compared to repeaters?
-Most fights are not going to be 1v1's in the future in my opinion. This is what most people seem to not understand because they want to play the game as a solo player. I get that because a majority of my time in Star Citizen so far has been solo, but if I want to go lock down Jumptown I can not do that by myself. Ideally we have some guys inside stacking drugs and making sure no one has sneaked past the "perimeter" made by the guys outside, and some ships flying overhead to keep other ships off the guys on the ground. If i joust with 1 fighter and end up not over Jumptown anymore, then I'm actively helping the enemy by "leaving my post". Keep in mind you can do this with like 6 people depending on what gets brought to fight you, 1-2 inside, 2+ outside shooting any nerds who get to close, and 2+ ships overhead protecting the guys shooting nerds.
I just don't understand the fascination on 1v1's because outside of arena commander or group events, when is it going to be a fair fight? If I'm ever in a 1v1 situation I've already messed up, because I should always have someone in another ship watching my back (or at least a rear gunner, oh wait they are useless because I can just point myself at the enemy 24/7, please give us atmospheric flight, and make the main thruster actually feel like main thrusters) I'm always going to try and bring more people/more firepower than my opponents. Where will your honor be when your respawning, and I'm taking your loot? Not with your loot thats for sure >:)
EDITS cause im bad at spelling :(
>having trouble outmaneuvering a Corsair in an F8 Lightning
Allthough F8C is quite slow ship it's forward thrust speed right now is 450, Corsair backward thrust speed is 205. You doing something wrong ))) Do you neutralize side speed difference before approach?
The problem you're describing in being stuck nose to nose is what all the combat pilots are complaining about as well. In order to merge, you need to close the orbit and intersect the vector that your opponent is orbiting on. This is impossible or difficult to do when they can backstrafe/sidestrafe faster than you can move forward in a diagonal lead pursuit. As Hybrid mentioned in the video, strafing left or right while moving forward actually nets you LESS acceleration than just strafing in a single direction. This used to not be a problem because combing your strafes would let you tricord or bicord diagonally to cut across the orbit.
@@alexpetrov8871 It's not the strafing so much as the Corsair just seeming to have no trouble pivoting to face me, no matter how I try to get behind it. I'm not going to claim to be an expert, so it might be more about how I'm trying to circle around him, but even if I do get behind him, he has no trouble pivoting to face me again, pushing me back to evasive.
@@DennisBLee I wonder what the goal of this is then, and whether it's just a question of bad vector addition, or if they're reducing the thrust on purpose to simulate something else.
So you're saying that two thrusters are adding together to give you less than their vector sum should amount to. That actually sounds more like they're treating thrusters as _ducted_ thrust from the main engine, rather than separate banks, and accounting for losses in total thrust due to the extra factors involved in routing.
I can understand the engineering principle behind it, but I've also never gotten the impression that that's what was intended with the maneuvering thrusters in this game. That doesn't look physically possible with some of the smaller ships.
The solo vs multicrew thing will balance out when CIG get NPC crews and AI Blades into the game. That's still a ways off as last I heard them say they needed to get SM and RL v2 out and working first before even trying to put more complex AI into the game.
I realize now after so many years without MM that i never properly utilized cover. I think the main reason is general engagement speed. Cover always felt more like something to watch out for and avoid hitting. Now with MM i find myself using obstacles as actual tools.
I feel like maverick every time i drop chaff around an asteroid just to get a proper flank on my opponent. This was always technically possible before but only in the same way that sub 200 scm fights were always possible lol
I am excited for what is coming next and what this will turn into. I dont think combat is in the best possible place it could be, but it certainly feels more fun than before. From here, we just need to tune and balance until its perfect.
Maverick on a cessna
WHAT COVER U ARE IN FUCKING SPACE WTF
@@elkneto4334 geez man, have you ever done a bounty mission? Arena commander? Asteroids, derelict stations, mountains, Larger ships, etc. Even in open space you can now deploy a noise field because the speeds are low enough to actually maintain a broken lock
28:51 Realism and fun are not mutually exclusive.
Nobody serious is arguing against fun, they're arguing that realism is more fun.
I come from a milsim background playing games like ArmA and DCS. I know the arguments that realism can be more fun. But it is already obvious that CIG is more interested in a middle ground rather than going hardcore one way or another. Therefore there is some give or take that is expected. We could argue that they should go more realistic until we are blue in the face, but at the end of the day, they have already made up their mind on the direction they want the game to take. And at this point, I am inclined to agree with them.
A case of what has a bigger audience DCS or something that picks it's realism battles properly but has more mass appeal. Ie
Realistic where it's fun, simpler where realism would just bog things down.
Sure, but that’s not what SC has ever aimed to be. SC is SC because it’s different, and that has brought CIG nothing but unprecedented success. Just sayin.
28:35 the problem is, we could keep space flight authenticity and still make it fun. The issue witg MM is that afterburner exceed scm speeds and then make it slow down again, making it feel like pseudo-atmospheric flight.
Also, why we draw the line at the flight model, I don't find taking the tram in cities over and over again very fun, what about fast travel? Also I don't find loosing all my shit on death fun. Tri-chording was only broken, becasue of the overpowered downward thrusters taht are necessary for taking off and overcome gravity. If tri-chording was implemented with the actual thrust thruster could output, it wouldn't be a problem, but support the space flight experience.
With the new flight model, newer players won’t be able to get into as many different gameplay loops without having to pay for escorts. Do you think that a newer player wanting to try out cargo will be able to afford to pay for a reliable escort for the case that they get interdicted? Many people are getting screwed over unless they want to join groups to do basic trading when first starting out. This flight model makes it easier for those “pirates” (they don’t have enough honor for that title) who camp trade zones waiting for people who are coming in to sell or buy.
A new player doing cargo is going to be in a pretty small ship, making considerably smaller profits, as well as being nimble compared to a freighter. Someone in a C1 might be able to out fly their captors and escape, or only lose 1mil UEC. While someone in a Hull-C is not going to be able to escape at all, and have millions, if not billions worth of cargo on their ship.
Also if your taking anything larger than a C1 down to pick up some cargo planetside, you're just asking for trouble. Cargo weight hasn't been added yet, so some of these larger vessels that can fly it atmosphere full of cargo are not going to be able to hold themselves up.
Pirates will also most likely camp trade lanes between station either way. Disabling someones ship in atmo is just asking for it to explode when it hits the ground.
On top of all of that, the prices for ammo, fuel, and everything is still on the cheap side so players can mess around in the PU. Flying around in atmosphere just hovering waiting for people is going to drain your fuel in minutes, if your maneuvering thrusters dont overheat and drop you to the ground first.
Long story short, escort are meant for the large vessels that can escape themselves. Otherwise your just paying people to fly next to you essentially.
There is no sense to "escort" small cargo ships. You won't be able to protect them. They'll be just shot first.
Where is the spectrum thread you’re referring too?
Switching to NAV mode resulting in defensive measures being dumped down the drain makes little world building sense. My non official suggestion is that the shields are being shifted to a forward focused Trek style deflector shield for Quantum travel. The new graphics for quantum travel look compatible with such an interpretation, even if unintentional, so that's what I'll pretend is going on. However, I cannot abide becoming an enforced loot pinata for the fighter folk with non shield countermeasures like flares and autonomously guided missile systems also going down. "Fun" is not multiplayer jammed into every corner when cat herding is needed to source players each session. Especially when NPC crew and armor are nowhere near.
It would be interesting to see if they would be open to allowing counter measures when in nav mode. Maybe in Nav Flight but in QT mode you can't use it? Not sure. I'm curious to see what they end up doing with it in the long run as more data is collected from players using it in the verse.
I was there over 8 years ago. When 2.6 dropped. I was very invested in the 2.5 flight model. Was good at it and everything. Only for it to be gutted for a dogshit flight model that forced a 2 ship meta for 8 long years. So you can imagine how vindicated I feel now that we are returning to the glory days. Mm id basically identical to 2.5, with a bit more sluggishness. Needless to say, the losers who 'got good' at the current pile of stinking garbage excuse for a 'flight model' can get royally fucked for all I care. I'm happy that the flight model I'm good at is back in the game again. I'm already kicking ass in ptu. At least as much as I can at low framerates :p
This is probably one of the most accurate takeaways from MM. It is DEFINITELY a return to the glory days of when the flight model felt better in 2.5 and below.
TBH, considering this is the first iteration of MM and knowing CIG, I am 100% sure all this is still very much subject to change.
Personally I don't mind the new system.
I'll only say. It seems like people are forgetting that CIG is fully planning on rebalancing master modes AGAIN for Maelstrom lol
Yep, and it'll happen like clockwork, as and when needed, rebalncing is awesome, without it you'd have anal retents running the verse
I'm not a player getting extremely mad wondering why I'm dying and loosing my cargo. I'm a player getting extremely mad wondering how come my highly sophisticated ship capable of calculating quantum route to a detail can't handle a single turret that can automatically shoot down those few tiny red dots from my radar. Because that's what cargo ships should be. Giant slow massive tanks with enough fire power to blow out any fighter ship like a puny candle.
Students are making Arduino controlled turrets in their dorm rooms and CIG can't imagine a single auto turret in their whole sci-fi world! 😂
I hate turrets in this game. I don't mind players USING turrets... but they should auto function by default...
Yeah cause that's what cargo ships and trucks are in real life. Just cause you suck at the game doesn't mean you and other care bears should be invincible without any skill by hopping in a cargo ship.
@@loadingerror9975 What are you, five? What skill? Playing games is not a skill, dude! 🤣 It's a *pass time* and should be fun! It shouldn't require putting hundreds of hours in just to be playable. If you want competition, go play a sport. And *yes* - that's what is used to haul valuable cargo in real life. Haven't you heard of armoured tracks? Money convoys? Also, read a science magazine from time to time, maybe you'll get an idea of what's future and what's obsolete.
This! Thank you! AI turrets and we will play with big ships and do cargo again!! Send these WWII fighters to their side of the universe please.
I'm still concerned about an enemy getting a couple lucky shots of quickly, regardless it still takes time for shields to get up to full power so anytime in between you switching to SCM and them getting to full power you are vulnerable. What if they only allowed shields in NAV mode but made you switch to SCM for guns & msl....Do you think that would be a fair compromise? Just my thoughts
One thing I always hoped for with MM is that it would end the meta-driven strategy that most players use. Some players are going to need to adjust to thinking for themselves on how to get better at combat, rather than reading a reddit thread on what the best meta is, plunk down $300 on whatever ship they decided on, and then have insta-skill.
Is the fun just guessing where your opponent will dodge and then fire and turn around again??
As a fellow evo, you know that spool timer are part drive and mostly set by the ship itself right?
Even with the unifying of the QT drive spool timers, all industrial ships have a baseline that is longer than a heavy fighter, and the connie has around 20 second after the rebalance?
I think part of the ship may play a role, but more critically it is the size of the drive and the type being used. There is also supposed to be a massive component rework/rebalance coming very soon I believe.
@@HybridVAudio I didnt run the number myself, but another evo checked the ships he could get access to, mainly small, medium ones on the server
They found for small the ships spool timer is about 50% and for medium depending on the ship its 50-75% after the quick rebalance
Many of the issue are due to design flaws and not fully thinking out the consequences
These have all been pointed out, in some case directly conversation with the devs but whether they are able to do anything against the 'design vision' is another question
For instance they have locked the switch between nav and scm to the drive spool timer, without realising that on exiting the diables the QT drive for a cooldown period, and after that only then can spool the drive
This was originally intended to stop players from jumping away instantly but the new system added to the old only slow you down even more
We do not know as cig hasnt said if cooldown timer will still be a thing with new QT drives
So why not drop out and immediately go to scm mode? with shield and weapon up?
CIG has confirmed that you will alway exit QT in nav mode by the design vision and will not change it
So we are lead to conclude that if you exit from QT your supposed to be unable to move quickly and having to wait a timer out to be able to put up your shield and weapons for potentially up to 20 seconds? After every single even 10 second jump? (at least it is down from the 45-60 second for large ship now that they where shieldless/no weapon/max speed 80ms)
No other game would drop you in a potential combat area with no defence and no weapon and limited movement until a timer ran down while allow anyone to shoot and kill you? Simply poor/bad design
I'll admit the shield not coming back up after a QT jump until the cooldown and spool timers have run down even if switching to SCM might be a bug, so why not just exit QT in SCM then?
That is before we get to locking scanning modes in mining to scm speeds while spreading out resource nodes at 10-20km or more
I could continue to list all the design flaws/oversights but this would get very very long and that is before we even get to any bugs XD
These aren't bugs, or edge cases, they immediately encountered after leaving the hanger and jumping anywhere, cig clearly hasnt thought this through
@@Ospray3151 It may, or may not have been thought through. Neither you or I are in their meeting rooms so we don't know for sure what their intentions are. That is on them to convey. Best to assume these are already known to them and is being worked on as the current design is not even being close to being finished. Furthermore, we know that Yogi mentioned that NAV will be the default all around (like it was changed to recently) and with the coming Q-boost and Q-drive changes, it stands to reason that this will be vastly different in the near future. But again, it is up to CIG to be communicative on that front. This is why the feedback has been that the transit modes are very clunky, and no doubt CIG is aware of this.
Either way, with systems missing they have to work within the limitations they have imposed on themself, for better or for worse. But even so it is only for a short period of time since Q-Boost and much more is around the corner for this year.
@@HybridVAudio yes, it make you wonder why it was done this way
It the worse of both systems then asking for feedback on it?
You have a new system which makes travelling demonstrably worse, yet most of the people testing have spend most of the time travelling and don't even go into combat unless forced into combat against their will.
So of course the replies are very negative
Imo it would have been far better to introduce the new complete system than the hacked together one which serves only to annoy a percentage of the player base making the game more tedious and less far less enjoyable
MM is not even going to be the final model and combat balance but an overdue shake up. We have new atmo flight model, armor, ammo types, and engineering still waiting to come in and disrupt balance. Ships feel more substantial with room to give them more character now and some weapon variance. Pilots who train are always going to have an edge over lower skilled pilots no matter what they do with the numbers. There is room for more tactical combat now.
It reminds me of the old upright arcade games I played in the '90s. Kinda garbage. Ive played about 4 hours in AC and I prefer the flight model we have now to this. Each to their own. I doubt I even bother with PVP going forward if this drops into the PU. My other concern is that tying ship functions to speed will make some of them useless for their intended "loops". A drop ship without shields at certain points in its mission? Barely moves with the gear down? Why? And who was asking for this? Seriously, who wants MM? Edit- and yes, upvotes is how an online community does in fact validate an opinion, for good or ill.
Pirates asked for it I guess. Pirating is implied game loop. I have no problem with current flight model honestly
@@starbuck5728 me either. If they wanted to cut down on jousting buff missiles and folks will rush to jam the WEZ in a lightly shielded ship. In anything larger vs a light fighter I just move the Power Triangle to shields and putt along till I can jump away.
@@middleagedbaldguy6774 MM combined QED pretty much impossible to escape from
You're asking the wrong question. It has nothing to do with who wants MM, but instead what does the game need to achieve the vision both CR and CIG have in mind for the game. The current FM just simply doesn't translate well to the close in, WW2 style of combat CR had in mind, where things are slower and much closer like you would see in traditional sci-fi media. This is also closer in line with his much older games he was famous for. This is the goal they settled on after years of trying to find the right way to hammer this model down. Trying twitch shooter like systems initially, then post 3.0 moving on to a slower accel but higher top speed system like we have in live right now with a lot more freedom of movement, and then finally now, after concluding that experiment, picking something much slower and deliberate (and closer to the older 2.6 model) and seemingly now sticking with it, now that SQ42 is on the horizon.
@@HybridVAudio Hard pass then. It doesnt interest me. I got my fill of upright video games back in the 90's. I also think CIG needs to ask what its players want, not what Chris Roberts wants. He works for us after all, not the other way around.
My one and only complaint about MasterModes, is that your shields 100% drop when you go into Nav mode.. PRIOR to your QD ever 'aligning' or even "Spooling". They literally start to 'lower' the instant you start to transition from SCM to NAV.
That's basically a death-sentence to anyone trying to actually 'get away' from a fight, or even to just 'jump' in general... as not only are you having to 'point' and fly on a strait path towards where your trying to go, but all of your shields drop. making you 100% vulnerable.
It'd make more sense if they simply stopped 'recharging' but stayed up with what power they already had.
honestly bounties shouldn't just appear in atmosphere. they should spawn roughly 500-1000KM above a planet's surface, then QT to the planet and then spline jump to the nearest POI and then fly to the intended combat zone manually not becoming hostile until they either reach the location or their hunter comes within 50km of them
Kind of glad to see solo trading go, at least with the larger ships. This seems like one of many things to make doing that with a group more interesting. Just wish we had a good system for LFG. Someday.
Trading is barely profitable enough for a solo pilot. Splitting it across a crew, on top of increased risk from NPCs and freight elevators will kill the game loop entirely.
@@Reaver-One I don't get why you'd keep the pricing the same. That makes no sense. Though I can profit just fine right now, it wouldn't make sense to not adjust for that.
@@KaryudoDSabsolutely agreed. Some of the missions in eptu saw huge payout increases. I imagine the cargo missions will be very profitable when they come out.
@@jchacon103 New features are always more profitable to promote players testing them. Then they always get nerfed.
So I feel like I hate something but I don't know what I hate cuz I can't figure out what the hate is cuz that's something that I hate I don't know what I hate sometimes I hate when I get confused that's how I feel when I see people that say I hate something but don't give an excuse
I play the game since the 2.6 and I'm more a PVP AC player. I realy love the new MM. It feels more main truster oriented making the trajectories more what we expect from a space simulator game. All our space culture get from like Star War Films wasn't match with the previous legacy model imo. I truly have fun chasing target and I'm really
exiting to experience a large PVP engagement (org vs org) to see how the team play in this MM is good.
Honestly, MM is boring to me. I've started to play less knowing it's coming and that's fine.
For me atmo flying is really boring, ugh. It's more boring than Microsoft Flight. The reason why I say that is because these are SPACESHIPS. There will be a lot of balance coming 😊👍, so fingers crossed to the release and future.
What do you find boring about atmo flight in MM?
@brad433 Here's what I do like.
Boosting feels better and has a smooth feeling to it.
What I don't like is maneuvering. In a lot of ships. It's very clunky. I don't feel like you can pull off exciting tricks as much. Something about it is just boring. It feels catered to the Gladius or Arrow. Things will change 100% it's not the end of the flight model.
@@Mr_J112 Can you tell me what sort of maneuver? I’m messing with low flying for a bit now. My take is it feels more like flight sims, where there isn’t much authority with anything but pitch and roll, particularly positive pitch. Are you trying to strafe? Do you play any flight sims? How does it compare to you?
@brad433 I do play Flight Sims. A spaceship shouldn't feel like an airplane. Arrow, Sabre, and Eclipse are the only plane like ships. MM is catered for Gladius and Arrow. CIG forgot about non combat and made a lot of them less fun. This game doesn't really have what would call Canyons, especially Daymar. Low flight is more meh and already was meh. Racing in atmo isn't as fun, unless in the MISC snub. And it will be adjusted before live I HOPE. But I'm just not a fan. I play but end up getting off a lot faster because I'm bored. I go back to PU. It just doesn't feel like you need skill for MM
@@Mr_J112 I promise I’m not trolling you. I want to understand what you mean. What is it exactly you’re saying doesn’t feel right? What’s the basis for how a non-plane ship should handle? By non-plane, I assume you mean “brick” ships like a vulture. Are you saying that ship “should” feel good in atmo? What qualities are you describing as feeling good? What feels simplified to you? That seems like changing scope now. You’re saying things but not identifying why, which looks like you’re just parroting someone else (all due respect).
I've been playing on and off since 2016. I like Master Modes. I play on a wide screen with 2 flight sticks. The flight model is important to me.
I do not understand what is the point to discuss is MM good or bad when right now in PTU CIG tune ships and weapons characteristics every 1-2 days and these changes sometimes are -+100% of value. There is simply nothing to discuss yet, nothing is finished.
You really think there is no point to discuss master modes right now? Why do you think CIG is making changes? It's from the feedback dude...
@@MrKill_SC Yea, they read comments on youtube. Dude. have you ever tried to listen like 100000 opinions and come to some conclusion using this "data"? Feedback, sure )))
@@alexpetrov8871 CIG literally made a thread on spectrum for master modes feedback. Check it out and educate yourself.
@@MrKill_SC CIG and any other gameDev uses server side statistics for such decisions. That thread is purely for PR purpose, because such a small number of players can't show what will million of silent casual players like )) Educate yourself.
@@alexpetrov8871 LMAO. You talk straight out of your ass 🤣🤡
The thing I find the weirdest is that this was even a priority. Tbh it feels like they were trying to fix a problem that didn't exist. Like... the game is so unfinished, wasn't there anything else that would have been better time spent working on?
Anyway... I hope CIG listens to feedback (not the angry trolls), and hopefully something good comes from this
melted all my big ships.. bah 1 and that so i can have my big hanger when the cargo patch drops.. as a solo player most of the time I see no point in having a huge ship. I rock all the tiny ones for cargo, mining and salvage.
no point what so ever in having big ships for the solo grind tbh... Lets hope base building is a thing sooner rather than later.. all my wallet money needs spending lol.
I want to like this video but its sitting perfectly at 420
i found your advice on giving feedback very helpful.
It helps to remember that this is not the first time CIG has asked for feedback, and that was only after over a year blackout on the details of MM. The latest feedback to a large extent offers up nothing new. What is frustrating for backers is when we are finally asked for feedback, then the feedback is largely ignored. It's much like the IC. You got a bug so you go look it up and voila, the bug has been previously reported and further more it is marked as archived. Wasting time as backers is just as frustrating, so Devs show some empathy. I would think that a few folks blowing off steam to a Dev is entirely predictable. Respect is earned. Asking us for feedback on a system that has already passed signoff and is slated for release is insulting.
What is more insulting is that all the little problems that MM was claimed to fix, still exist. Yet we are expected to accept an arcadey FM. This isn't what we were promised.
complexity and variability is what makes long-lasting games. easy to learn hard to master is the deepness we need. I hope CIG will not dial back their plans because of many newcomers or old players mad of them pushing changes and re-learning
Games that do well are easy to learn, hard to master and have depth of skill and systems involved
When a game doubles the amount controls used and steps needed to simply to travel from a to b, and uses those systems to punish the unknowing instead of reward them then that is a flaw in design not an improvement
And no it's not dark souls like, dark souls drops heavy hints as to what to do and can be played easily if following them
This redesign add counter intuitive extra step for the reason of making travel slower and more tidious so others will have the chance to catch people travelling and prevent them simply flying away
@@Ospray3151 I totally agree, the "jump" should be a straightforward grand thing with just two steps - select target, spool up and jump. Any debufs are quite cool actually - when you jump your shields down, etc. but things have to be straightforward.
When the enemy pops into SCM mode, quantum isn't the quickest way to escape anymore. Now you must switch to nav mode and actually fly away while their locked down to 200ish velocity. Then pop quantum to get further away
>their locked down to 200ish velocity
Small fighters boost up to 600 in SCM, it may give them enough time to shoot off some critical component from unshielded prey. Probably best strategy for them would be to use distortion scattergun to cripple target.
well since MM is around lets discus ZERO chance ships. In the following list of ships, you are dead in MM. All Freelancers, Vulture, Mole, 100 and 300 ships, Prospector, Connie or Corsair if you think you can fight before you run, Raft, cutter, Arora, Syulen, and Hull A. I left out the multi crew ships because they are multi crew. All the listed ships crewed or not will be wrecked by two fighters before they jump AI or not.
The current shield interface does not work and the extended range on guns just gives small fighters a hit at range advantage. The full lack of a mechanic like quantum sneering and interdiction, Where CIG themselves have no idea of how it will fit within the current flight system.
Yes, we have flight system with no consideration other than to make it look cool. Flight, wise it does not feel bad if you are in a small/single seat fighter, but your options have been cut down severely and with cannons what it is currently time to kill is like 15 sec. (that is by a bad pilot on a bad pilot). There are extreme holes that MM has where a lot of ships do not have a place.
Without a true response of how these issues can be taken care of MM is a worse system than the current and I for one can't see where any of the above listed ships fit in MM.
There is your feedback now give me real solutions within the MM flight model that will resolve them.
I've tested the ships you mentioned in both in Pirate swarm and in the verse (prior to the laggy wave 1 and 2 releases) you can absolutely get away in them easily. But I wouldn't expect everyone to have the same skill set and flight hours as me being evo, so I can be in some agreement here. PvP is different because players are naturally smarter so there is a stronger argument to be made there for sure. It also depends on where you get jumped. If in atmosphere, most of those ships have a hard time getting away due to the nature of atmosphere. In space it is more trivial having tested these scenarios out myself.
Ultimately, CIG has to look at the data and feedback and see if additional changes are needed. Undoubtedly so, but it remains to be seen what they decide in the near future.
There is SO MUCH fear and gloom over this. The language being used is so over the top.
Let's wait till it's in. Test it as a huge community and watch in aww as the devs adjust it. Shocking
The game is (insert your opinion here)
master Mode is (insert your opinion here)
CIG is (insert your opinion here)
To summarize (insert your opinion here)
Get the point? Thanks for reading!
I like the master modes.
But in terms of combat I am not experienced enough to say how things will change long-term, I can only tell there are a few things that don't make sense and might be bugs.
And in terms of realism it's completely retarded.
But at the end of the day I still enjoy the experience I get with the new system.
i was in wave 1, it needs a lot of work but imo It takes a couple of days of playing to get used to the speeds but it has really grown on me. I think in a week a lot of people will be seeing it a little different. Also CIG's obsession with keymapping fubars is legend... most wave 2 people had to get used to the controls being screwed up and the speed slow down but after a week or two master modes feels better then the non MM iimo
This community does this a lot. Who remembers the upset at the Scorpios Anteres? Quickly forgotten
@@SpaceMike3 Another victim of the "where's the meta?" players.
I am solo industry player. I agree with you, you are convincing me to leave Star Citizen. I hate combat.
MM Combat Mode feels as empty and boring as Elite Dangerous combat, possibly one of the most boring combat/flight models I've ever seen in a space game, for F sake, Freelancer was more fun, and that was over 20 years ago.
All you do now is mindlessly circle around each other, there are no other options, might as well stay put and use the ship as stationary turret.
It's completely focused on crappy dogfight, this makes ships like the Eclipse, straight up obsolete, it's a hit&run stealth ship, not a dogfighter, the same goes for many cargo ships, or dropships, they aren't made to dogfight, not only that, with that focus, literally makes any stealth focused ship sit in a limbo with nowhere to go, because as mentioned, they are usually hit&run ships, it goes completely against what MM is doing, how are we gonna use those ships? As sniper? a role they where never supposed to be in? I sure as hell won't be using the Raven or the Prowler as a fighter, they ain't made for that.
You can still use stealth ships to their full potential. One way is to sneak in attack and then NAV FLT out. Do NOT use the QT NAV as that spikes your emissions. You can zip around and find a point where you want to strike, drop in close, hit them and then zip out again. The stealth ships are some of the more annoying ships to deal with right now. In our org we started using them as counters against sniper and missile boats since they can get in close and tie them up as those enemy types like to stay far from the fight doing damage and being annoying.
Unfortunately, they are not here yet but hirable NPC's and AI blades will someday still help to "solo" bigger ships
Call me crazy but I like Master Modes. I have seen far fewer accidental collisions. I'm also careful to not enter atmo if I see ships. I use Nav mode as a space brake. Because I use voice control the change was not that bad to learn. I call out the modified commands.
NEVER think we don't have options.!
Elite Dangerous with Super Cruise makes more sense!
My lack of interest in the (PVP) combat flight model is precisely _why_ I'm still feeling so salty about Master Modes. In no universe should a 400i, a Mercury, and a Corsair fly the same. But for the sake of "balancing" the "Archetypes" in 3.23 they do. In no universe should the 600i, Caterpillar, and Hull-C fly the same. But in 3.23, they do. That's fucked up. But Yogi is awesome and I trust him and his team to unfuck them. So, I'm confident that they will tweak the tunings of the S3-S5 ships so that they fly well and have individual handling again so that they're fun to fly. I'm just hoping it's soon and not Soon™.
The changes to the guns sound cool. There will actually be reasons to think about what guns to put on _turrets_ now. High speed, high alpha damage but low magazine capacity makes me think the FL series will be a great turret gun.
I'll have to sit down and look at all the stats once 3.23 goes live to decide what goes where. I might be going with the FL-33s on my MIS. And the Lightstrikes look like I might not be gimping my 325a anymore by using them due to how well they blended with the lines of the ship. I just might go back to using Lightstrikes on my 400i again with Attritions on the turret.
How does the ESP work for you now? I have the feeling it doesn't do anything in 3.23
I have not touched it at all since they changed it to a generic strength slider. I usually keep my settings default in the PTU to establish a baseline before adjusting, and so far I have not felt like I needed to tweak it yet. Have you tried increasing the strength a bit in the settings?
@@HybridVAudio Even on max I overshoot like crazy. Have the feeling it doesn't do anything. Corrected it a little by adjusting the sensitivity curves of my right stick
@@MrFWStoner Yeah, stick level adjustments are key to get a good feel. I would recommend adjusting the curve at stick level. Turn down ESP to its extreme (either lowest or highest) and adjust to taste from there. Usually helps if you have a buddy that can be a target for you to adjust to.
I think overall theres a lot of negative sentiments because people are far too used to just getting away with 1 movement (trichord). Now i play in a decent level of pvp in SC and the fights in live be more dynamic if they were limited to certain conditions in a team fight like presetting speed limiters to 500m/s, while oyu could have incredible 1v1s if both pilots were capable and willing to push the other. MM dumbs a lot of that down and while it doesnt truly solve the issues you see in a lot of pvp engagements it helps in a lot of ways. MM is going in a good direction for the future of the game . if continued iteration on the FM is actually happening then we have a lot to look forward to as far as potential. I personally enjoy MM a lot, though i think im enjoying experimenting with guns again now that we have more than 1 viable option. to sum my opinions up, MM is going to be good for the game, load of people will not be happy and some may quit, but this isnt the first time CIG has done something like this with similar outcomes and we will see if this is truly the FM that sticks in time.
Statement "vast majority of players is not invested in the flight model"(no supported data). Then proceeds to say sentiments can skew perspective........do i need to point out the obvious?
It works both ways. This is why I said repeatedly that CIG holds the data here and thus it is up to them on whether they want to disclose that or not. I can only speak from experience having played and covering this game for many years. The vast majority of people from my own personal experience are just not that heavily invested in the FM because they are more interested in the loops they want to take part in. Only a very small minority of individuals are highly invested in the FM and how that FM translates into combat related tasks such as PvP.
@@HybridVAudioSo wouldn't it make sense to listen to the people who actually know the flight model and have learned it and are skilled with it? Why would it make sense to listen to the people who don't care about flying around and only care about mining and cargo hauling and stuff like that?
@@MrKill_SCYou’re assuming they are not listening to the feedback of this very loud minority. There are competing requirements here, which is why they keep iterating and trying different things to find what feels good. One of those requirements competing with the opinions of the vocal minority, is to make combat more approachable, rather than dissuading players from combat because they still get their butts kicked in a 5 on 1 contest against a seasoned combat pilot. The old flight model is frustrating to new players, and even many not so new players. The balance is too far toward the aces. They should be better, but not the way it has been.
Then add in their desire to reduce speeds for other reasons, like desync and actually being able to hit or unskilled players not uncontrollably jousting… or the arbitrary desire to have CLOSER combat to show off the pretty ships…. and ultimately you get a lot of counterweight to the opinions of the loud light fighter PvP crowd.
@@MrKill_SC Because people who fly around and only care about mining and cargo hauling are just as important to the life blood of the game as the AC PvP sweat lords are. Not all interactions in the verse will be 100% combat oriented. There has to be some level of give and take.
@@brad433 why do you keep saying vocal minority? What makes you think it's only minority who doesn't like Master modes? If you go on spectrum (which on spectrum, there's more people that actually play the game then the commenters on UA-cam) you can see that people are not liking master modes. If the majority of people did like Master modes there would be more upvotes on all of the positive comments. There may have been more now because of this weird campaign by all the streamers and content creators and people who generally aren't playing the game very much but are only agreeing with these people and supporting their opinions. I actually see a lot of people calling out the stuff that is wrong in master modes like the fact that it completely kills racing, 1v1 dog fights, and generally makes the game more unfun, amongst many other things. Hybrid v is right, CIG is the only one with the numbers. I'm just going off of what I am seeing. I have been with this project since 2013. I play daily and have put in thousands of hours. I want this game to succeed with every ounce of my being. This is my dream game and I want it to be the funniest for everyone. It's going to need to be challenging though. One of the games that was mentioned by Chris Roberts and compared to Star Citizen at the very beginning of this project, was Demon's Souls. People are going to need to get better and learn. People really aren't bothering to learn to fly.
Cinematic first person combat is a childish goal to have for a sim like SC. I miss the speed during combat, it felt exciting. I felt like the hero of my own story and didn’t need banal tricks like limiting my speed to tell me how to feel. We have the Reliant Mako for a shot-in-game “cinematics” they could just leave it at that.
Let me joust and make mistakes and learn the depth of combat from the veteran pilots. The humbling moments getting stomped is a spectacle. TF2 was great for that reason, seeing someone fly across the map is amusing even if you die. SC has a brutal respawn so much more painful. But I still think being met with that skill difference is the mark of an authentic, fun, and deep game. Idk I’m ranting bc I hate seeing the game like this. It’s not the same game anymore. I just was the MM nightmare to end.
ref AI ships having less health; this is one thing I do not like at all. It makes for a lot of baseless cheating accusations. Same for NPCs doing less damage. If CIG wants to make it easier for people to beat NPC ships those ships should be spawned in a damaged state so it's already obvious on scanners that these have "less HP" (or whatever the equivalen is going to be for maelstorm), have them be missing guns for reduced damage output etc. Making NPCs magically weaker (or stronger) by simply adjusting modifiers in the background is bad for everything; it hurts immersion, causes baseless accusations of cheating, etc.
Seems like someone wanted the combat to be like Starfield's >.<
A speed limit defies physics in space. Fair enough when entering quantum, shields, weapons, engines shutdown for sciency reasons etc.
For me master mode isn't to bad the two things that i don't like it ls that you slow to 30km when landing gear comes out i dont like that since i can slide around i did figured out a way to do it and the shaking of the ship when you are flying at high speeds i think thats point less if it was to just shake when on plant sure but in space shouldn't shake like its ready to fall a part thats what it feels like to me but i did find out in master modes the taurus flys really good best ship i found flys like a heavy fighter could just be me but i would give it a try
Saying "solo is over" is just not correct. There will always be places and times players can solo, there will be a risk/reward aspects to that choice, and even limits - this follows the "player choice" rule. This is my 3rd flight model change, and I'm actually a fan of master modes - but no matter what the flight model is, solo will always be an option.
*sarcasm* Oh great, another CIG shill talking about how master modes is better and will be "even better in the future!!" *sarcasm off*
Great video with great takeaways. I appreciate your perspective.
Saying SC is PVE focused is a bit short sighted. At present it exists this way but fast foward to a single server with 150k people in it and nearly everything with be primarily PVP, combat and non-combat related things. And you can be assured PVP will happen as a part of day to day life. The human element of the game is unavoidable and necessary in a 'sandbox' player driven universe environment.
Gee I wish there is something that could be done about the increased vulnerability of non-combat ships in nav mode.
But things like increasing hull hp/armor have not been invented in games yet, so I guess whining is the only reasonable reaction.
You say ppl have to have escorts in the Stanton system because they get killed by NPC's with the new system. That would be true for a lawless places like Pyro. Stanton should be high security where you should feel safe as a new player. More like high sec in Eve online. The police/protection/crime systems have not improved over a long time and there is no real punishment's if you pirate. Crime stat is a joke atm.
Great video Hybrid. I am one of those people who jumped at CIG's throat on the initial impression that my Cutty Red's speeds were reduced. After doing some side by side time tests I found that I was wrong. I still have some concerns about no shields during access to highest speeds, but I'll have to see where they end up with it.
Regarding feedback to the devs, I absolutely feel like anything I contribute whether on Spectrum or IC, just goes in the trash can. That feeling doesn't subside.
I've stopped playing as when its lagged it makes master mode too clunky for an enjoyable experience, I have found modes dont switch when I need them to and sometimes get stuck, so you I spent way too much time getting in and out of my ieat trying reset it. - was frustrating so am on a break until they get it fixed, in the meantime I just bought a python mk2 in elite and having a blast so no biggie I got something to keep me occupied until CIG gets it fixed..
Master modes is great. I bathe in the tears of fighter bros.
If players feel there is something wrong, then there is something wrong. In this case it's not the game, it's the developer. They are fishing in the mud for a flight model since 0.9. Over 10 years now. In 2.6 they already tried to make combat slower and players hated it. Now they are making the same mistake again. This fact alone shows the aimlessness or should I say helplessness of this part of the project's development, let alone other areas. They are still theory crafting. "We are discussing this right now" tm.
Playing devil's advocate for a moment, even: "I don't like it", is valid feedback. The burden of proof that MM is good is on CIG when they radically change the way ships fly in a space game. A lot of the feedback concentrates on their changes not solving what they are supposed to solve, like endless jousting. You really don't touch on that at all.
The complexity argument is something you kind of wave over, but did you count the number of new keybinds? And how many did we already have? And then you basically skip over that by saying we'll get used to it.
Even the ships feeling like you have barely any control over them you wave away by saying that's 'by design'. That's the whole point of the objection: it's a bad design if things feel like that.
I love your videos and you have every right to your opinion, but this video makes it a little too clear that you like MM and think others should as well to be considered objective.
I'm not in the camp of harassing CIG or the developers with emotional, childish outbursts. I'll definitely give you that. However, for now, for me, MM is a huge step backwards. I'm no heavily invested PVP sweat or anything, but I enjoyed the odd space fight. I genuinely dislike doing any form of ship combat in the game now.
So if I cant conveniently and casually solo trade in my C2, how am I supposed to make the many millions to buy ships. Sucks to be me ?
So far, I dont like them. Why does a cargo ship need a flight and combat mode? Why cant I just fly?
Why do I have to trade my shields just to go full speed?
I AM A CARGO SHIP!?
The light fighter pilots that have an ego and are finally realizing they cant fly circles around gunships are the ones crying the loudest. My hammerhead runs on their tears. Ive patiently waited for my big ships to be more relevant. And before you hate. I own 2 light fighters and a glaive as well. I enjoy them equally but I find them op.
I am not even a pvper , and doing mostly pve , and with combat usually just against NPC hostile, with MM, its just too frustrating for me to fly and combat with ships now lol...but hey what do I know, am just a guy , some said they like it, well good on them, but not for me. MM feels arcadey , didnt feel like a flight sim like it's used to be. I just said this as normal player who just see how MM manifested in live server, so I am not evocati level or those backers who spend so much money that they can get early access into test server . I noticed on spectrum that MM is affecting mostly on pvp players but I think its also affecting pve players as well
The real question is how much time 15 min? 30 min? 1 hour each time we meet a kid logged into a fighter to bully cargo folks?? What the hell are they doing they have fighters that can’t carry our cargo anyway!
How many hours a week are we gonna have to donate to jagging off a ganker camping a landing zone before I can store the damn fighter planes and go back to what I wanted to fly in the first place???? Send them all to a sand box or another game!!
BTW World of Warcraft arena is what killed PvP in the open world that plus city queue. Before city queue we had multiple tarren mill vs southshores and happy gang guilds which coordinated world pvp into something more than just “Ganking”!! I think you want that for this not arena with its small forced boundaries and opponents picked for you. I think they made arena commander for you arena players who consider the game as 2-5 player battles where the universe is your background you don’t need to have regular non fighting ships to pick on until CIG evens the odds for us non fighter jouster hide n seek players. Give other players an incentive for crewing or give me AI crewing and I don’t need to become a fighter pilot! Solved.
My main problem isn't that it's all bad... No, Master Modes does have potential but it has some glaring issues right now that are just making the game Murder Hobo Central. Now these are not your run of the mill PvPers... I have no issue with them in fact I mix it up with PvP a little myself and never shy away from it. No these are the opportunists that will use exploits or other means to get quick easy kills so they can shit talk. These are not PvPers they are straight up Player Killers. Xenothreat is overrun with them right now. These are the bottom feeders in the PvP ranks.
Master Modes has enabled this... period. If CIG does not correct it they will lose a substantial portion of their playerbase. Now I'm not saying ditching it completely is the answer either. Right now with Master Modes a very large portion of the player base are upset as it seems like CIG sold them a bill of goods at this point. People were told that this game would support all play styles but right now it's a PvP gankfest.
I also can't quite put my finger on why exactly but the game feels a lot more Arcade now and much less Sim. This is a combination of Master Modes and the new UI. About the new UI... I'm going to be perfectly honest here... the new UI is a cluttered mess. You can't even see your targets half of the time because of the HUGE labels on absolutely everything. It's a confusing cluttered mess. They really need to clean it up... a lot.
Master Modes isn't all bad but it needs a lot of work. For one thing no shields in Nav Mode is just a mistake. It you want shut down recharge but leave them up so you have at least some protection. This way they would have to eat through your shields giving you a little more time to escape. Or have them dissipate at a much slower rate then just gone in a second. Nav mode just gives Gankers a free pass to do damage right now and that is it. Some ships can be killed in a couple of seconds with no shields. All this does is give the bottom feeders free kills... as many as they want.
The game right now is designed to drive half the playerbase away from this game. If Star Citizen is to have a future they have to cater to the carebears as well as the edgelords. Neither side can support this monolith of a game on their own. It will fail and the last 12 years will be for naught.
Mm flight feels terrible. Flight is so bad compared to the old model. I wish they would revert to the last model but just slow the scm speed down.
Things taking longer and having more button presses is not an improvement.
been having fun with MM so far it is not perfect by far but nothing ever is, I just want to see some big space battles now :))
Well all I have to say to the people who are complaining about the changes is what they have always said to the rest of us when it comes to flying. Git gud😅 seriously though, im terrible and have to learn the system and if it is more realistic overall, then so be it
What some need to realise is......MM's is here, and CIG are not going to backtrack, Hey!, i wish we could have the old simplified mining from 4 yrs ago, but its gone.....move on. Whether anyone likes it or not, the simple fact is we'll get used to it, we singned up for the lang haul, and its all written in the small print, some will just have to man-up and grow a pair, master modes is fun, and as much as i find it pretty daunting, i am growing to realise, its well thought out and very granular.
"man up, grow a pair" 😂 good arguments🤡
@@MrKill_SC Ive a large pair, and they weigh heavy. So, wipe away those tears girly, and stop your sulking...its happening....chuck
@@davedanter Tell yourself whatever you want to. I'm sure you got a big ass truck too huh? 🤣🤡
@@MrKill_SC Nah!, just a big ass
CIG just declared death sentence on solo players like me. If CIG does not release the AI blades as soon as possible, then I'm deciding not to play the game until they add this feature, because it is impossible for me to maintain as active as I am right now if I know it is gonna be easier for me to get robbed during solo cargo hauling.
So like I started following SC for the realism aspect of it I always loved realism in my games is why I play games like war thunder over other games like world of tanks, war thunder it has a much greater focus on simulation and realism and also it is a great simcade at that because it still very accessible so simply the realism of the current model si what I love about it and it's accessible and easy to learn hard to master I was never focused on PvP and never upset at meeting a high skill PvP player I am not one to get mad at how bad I fly I’m not good on war thunder when it comes to flying either. That aside The main thing that bother me on MM is that its dumbing down the flight in order to make it more arcade less sim so people can learn and master it easily and I left Elite Dangerous exactly for that problem ED has such a simplistic flight model that your ship flies on rails you have no true freedom of flight unless you go full assists off where the ship is near uncontrollable unless you have a physics degree SC was able to give me the freedom I so much desired while still being extremely easy to handle now they are taking away that freedom and that scares me.
Not that MM is bad its well its really boring and I hate it but whatever the ships don't fly all that much different since I always did PvE only I see no difference whatsoever but I know the vision this strange idea of chris for WW2 fights in space and it scares me for the future when they see that MM is not WW2 in space and they restrict your flight more and more until we have ED 2 hopefully that won't be the case and maybe we will get some speed increase later so flying in scm is more fun.
Also in a good note I LOVE the changes to weapons because It was always very boring how guns felt all the same in the game and there was no real diversity on the guns you choose other than looks.
Change will always be scary, but ultimately it is important to remember that things can and will continue to change and improve over time. Especially, as CIG continues to collect more player data and feedback. Ultimately, this game is CR's baby and this is why they moved to this type of FM since it is a lot more in line with his older games that he was famous for. They tried other ideas through the years and ultimately, it looks like they want to settle on this style.
@@HybridVAudio no matter how you put it mm is a downgrade in order to make the current flight model more accessible it will always be that for me and I'll never like it but it doesn't ruin the game its just meh i just have less reasons to fly the engineering looks more interesting than anything combat has to offer in the game so I'll just wait for barotrauma in space
It's kinda funny, all the people I know who hate master modes also suck at DCS and are perpetually hard stuck in other games. I like the idea of master modes, I just think it's a template that's got a lot of blank slots that gotta be filled. I would feel way differently if we didn't know that this was going to be a way harder game already, Master modes have been in testing for over 6 months now on live. Now we're in a position where we've gone from the experimental mode where they were asking us for feedback to the implementation, and all the people who didn't want to give any feedback on the foundation now demand to be heard after they finalize shit...
People that have tried Master Mode in PU are people that put a lot of time, a lot of money into the game or are content creator. That the worst echo chamber of crying doomers… 😅
So not surprised with the feedback.
So are you saying that people who have not tried Master modes haven't put any time in? Then why should we listen to those people? I'm just trying to understand what you're saying dude. Most of the content creators that I'm seeing are enjoying master modes or at least acting like it.
Bro is spitting F A C T S
I am so disappointed with your take here. saying Star Citizen is a Pve game and that someone else should go make a gape for the PvPrs is pathetic. It is also untrue CIG said it was a PvP game. It is a sandbox
😭🍼🍼
The non combat pilots who are moaning only feel like they’re getting shafted because the don’t practice the new techniques on how to escape. You have to think about how and when instead of just pressing the dumb go button and many of them don’t want to have to think and practice.
But on MM the only thing I don’t like about it is the non 45’s, 45ing had a style and a feel to it that just hits the spot. Having to just use pitch feels too basic and a bit simplistic
Honestly, master modes is a complete waste of time. CIG will have to keep balancing MM forever because it will never be good enough for 0.5% of players who want it.
The whole switching modes and slowing down fights is utterly trash IMO. But whatever, this isn't the game I backed and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. So this is my 2 cents in a sea of burned cash
Master modes is so unrealistic it's beyond dumb. Want to fly from space straight down to a planet surface with no loading screens, well now you do that at walking pace or quickly but without shields and your quantum drive engaged, wtf?
Want to transport that sensitive Zeta Prolonide to the other side of the planet, well your doing it without shields, excuse me?
Uncoupled flight in space, you just boosted up to 300ms no boost left, no, hold on, we have magic boost to slow you back down to scm speed, wtf, uncoupled flight or not?
Ship showroom sandbox needs a better director IMO.
LTI crewman $45 😄
Dude you spent the majority of the time attacking the motives people who are criticizing the flight model rather than the arguments themselves. I too read nearly every post in that gargantuan feedback thread and there were many valid points made. You are making the judgement that 'some people just don't like it because it's different' the counter to that is 'some people just like it because it's new.' See what I did there? You call it a 'vocal minority' but that's based on conjecture as well. I agree just attacking the devs and insulting them is not constructive, but neither is dismissing feedback when feedback is asked for.
Here's the crux of what I find in common with most of the dissenting arguments. Flight does not feel good. It does not feel good or natural to run into an artificial wall at 200 m/s in my ultra futuristic and expensive space fighter. A fighter jet from 2024 can outrun a gladius. It does not feel good to have the magical space brakes slammed whenever I let off the boost in SPACE. It does not feel good when my enemy is casually backstrafing me and keeping me nose to nose while I am being punished by the game for maneuvering and pushing aggressively.
You mischaracterize these pilots when you dismiss their concerns as not having spent enough time with master modes. Many in the racing and PvP community who are the most vocal critics of mastermodes are also the ones who have spent hundreds of hours there teasing out all the details and quirks that CIG themselves didn't even know about. They have contributed volumes of feedback and testing and can dominate an arena commander lobby just as easily in master modes as they can in the live FM. You should acknowledge that if a sizable portion of experienced, dedicated pilots say it's not fun, then maybe it's not as fun as it should be.
I'm eagerly waiting his response to you.😁 But I bet he won't
I mentioned in that section in the caption that context matters. Which you seem to agree to since we both agree that the negativity, particularly those with nothing to say other than berating the devs is bad. So, I'm not sure what you are arguing here.
"A fighter jet from 2024 can outrun a gladius"
You're making a realism argument, which I addressed later in the video and subsequent replies here to the same effect. Realism isn't the overarching goal of MM, never has been. Nor would I agree that it would need to be necessary, and this is coming from someone with a milsim background. Realism is not the most compelling argument when you are trying to go for something very specific in mind.
"You mischaracterize these pilots when you dismiss their concerns as not having spent enough time with master modes"
Can you point to where in the video I specifically said that they have not spent a lot of time with MM?
@@HybridVAudio You didn't address anything. LMAO
@@HybridVAudio 10:00 in the video. "they realize they are not very good at it" I contest that because people like G-LOK and AV1 amongst others are vocal critics of MM while being VERY GOOD at it having spent more time in MM over the last 6 months than your average spectrum commenter.
In regards to the Gladius being slow compared to a modern jet fighter, that was not in any way a 'realism' argument. It was a 'fun' argument. It's not fun to fly something that's supposed to go fast but FEELS slow. The absolute numbers don't matter whatsoever, it's purely relative visceral feeling. We all know what it feels like to go speeding down a highway. When I pass a corsair and I can count "one one-thousand, two one-thousand, three one-thousand" as I leisurely float by, that doesn't FEEL fast.
I'm not trying to be combative here. I've been a long time subscriber of your channel and you've always put out quality content, but I feel like we are all emotionally invested in the outcome of the flight model and strawman arguments are entirely unhelpful.
How are you supposed to get away while the defensive turrets are nonfunctional
It will get better. I already like the new MM mode in AC more than normal. Oddly enough, I'm better at the new MM than the old system. I just wish I could use my Arrow in MM.
all im hearing is the opposite of improvements, but I guess we will see when 3.23 hits the masses
Hope they change it what a stupid implementation to a realistic space game
I agree with your outlook overall.. But you need to realize that there will be tons of time in this game where you will be doing things alone. You can not depend on the weekend warriors and the after work dads. Also a lot of people enjoy doing things solo, especially when it comes to making money. There is nothing wrong with risk. I am a pirate. My group has 100+ members. But you still can not rely on others every time you want to do something. There needs to be a balance.. like eve online has. And it will take you longer to do tasks on your own, but you get all the reward. Also good luck getting your org to pack boxes and do logistics... a small group of people will be the ones doing the heavy lifting.. like it is in every mmo. And the others just show up for the party. The greatest risks and best rewards are often from the mountains you conquer on your own. But maybe thats the difference in leaders and followers. CIG has also said many times that they realize the majority of their players do solo game play and they are going to make sure we can.. they literally just talked about this. No matter what you think, you will be playing solo.
I knew it!!! CIG DOES sit around looking for ways to slow down the game play.
Have you tried Arena commander swarm? I wouldn't call it "slow down" gameplay, because now it is harder to get distance from multiple enemies - you have to evade and fight. It is a 1 to many dogfight more often then it was before.
They literally have been saying this for years.
Backers are vocal minority are you kidding? Take the dislike and removal for suggestions jeez
Your comment and dislike is all what required to promote this video.
@@alexpetrov8871 I upvote and dislike the things that I agree with or disagree with. Sure, you can say that we are promoting him by interacting. That is true. But that is always been true for everything that you interact with. You make that thing known. But what is also true is that you make what you think about that thing known and that is more powerful.
Master Modes essentially kills low flying racing and high skill dog fighting and makes almost all large size ships and absolute chore to fly.
💯 but you're just complaining and being negative... /s
True 28min playtester, awesome opinion