Good video. Is the British Isles bowed lyre you mentioned the Shetland Gue? Shetland and Orkney are just North of me in Caithness, mainland and quite proud of their Norse heritage. The Shetland fiddlers tend to be great. Scottish violin at one time had a great variation in regional styles and the Shetlanders very unique. Traditional Scots violin is a really high standard but I think lost something along the way. Cheers.
I'd like to hear more Scottish fiddle music. I appreciate the broad intervals Scots use in bagpipe melodies. I welcome any resources for Scottish music.
wonderful. i just made my first one, . . . can you please tell me how you made your bow? No one talks about that and i don't like th e 'store bought violin' bow i have i feel it doesn't have enough flex and i have black mongolian horse hair.
It depends on what sound you like. I have since this video moved to more tension and more hair with my bow. Only slightly bigger than the one shown here. I agree that there aren’t a lot of instructions or information on these basic subjects. Many kinds of specialized knowledge are shrouded in mystery for different reasons. I believe some things are best known through lived experience. I think having 2 or 3 bows that are different and trying them all out over a long period of time would develop the sound and playability that you like. It helps to have a sense of what other stringed instruments sound and feel like to play generally. But not necessary.
Interesting. You got a loud and good sound from that build. I'm about to start building one of these things myself, and I'm trying to analyze what you did differently that might have improved the sound. You mentioned string tension and rosin. I'm wondering if the violin-type f-slots might be a better shape, or if it's the oddball bridge that makes a difference, but who can say? Can you tell me how thick the cedar top and oak back are? And are the sides the same thickness as the arms reaching up to the peghead? Thanks--
The top is about 3 mm thick I don’t think the hole shape is as significant as having a treble post under the bridge foot like a violin, and a bass bar. hole location does matter some. Persian Setar holes are made using golden mean ratios. The side wall is thinner than the arms. I just took 2 planks, routered them out and glued them together. One had the arms, the other one didn’t. That part was quick and easy. Don’t be afraid to experiment. One benefit of using horsehair is- you can get a grasp on what works for your instrument after stringing it up about 20 times. Haha
Thanks for your Video. Very interesting I want to build my own. The only thing i cant find is how much horsehair i need for the each string. You have that Information maybe? I will go with a EAE tuning.
The factors are vibrating string length combined with the note you want, and density of string material. It’s best to just get a string on there and try it out. I buy a bunch of hanks and experiment. Its better to break strings and find the sweet spot than it is to be afraid to do something wrong have a bad setup. www.spikefiddle.com/strings There is a link on this page about UDMS strings and calculators for it. You can just plug in the variables. I don’t use the calculators, but the article is worth reading. Nothing else like it online that I have seen regarding (Uni-Directional Multi-Strand) filament strings.
If the string is slinky and weak at the note you like, use more hair for the string. If its too tight (hairs breaking is one sign of this) and you still need to go up in pitch, use less hair.
Hello, great video! I am inteding to make one of these as part of my education (I am studying to be an instrument builder) and I was wondering if you could answer some questions I still have. In another comment you mentioned a trebble post, and I am familiar with these from violins, I was however wondering if it would be possible to make that post in a triangular shape, with the wide side resting on the backboard. This would give additional structural integrity to the instrument (because you would break the paralellogram inside the instrument), meaning you could have thinner walls and sound/backboards. DO you think the post would still function with that shape? Another thing I was wondering is this: The bridge is usually not glued to the soundboard, but what if you would do that? would it impact the sound greatly? Lastly I'd like to ask if there are rules to the dimensions and positioning of the bass bar. I know it is supposed to go under the bass strings, but huld it have a certain thickness, width and length? Thanks in advance
I am a woodworker by trade, but not a professional instrument builder. However I am building a few more that I will post soon. My recommendation is to build your first with the most conventional, tried and tested techniques. This makes for less errors on your first build. And makes use of centuries of expertise. Which shows the builder to be a good student of certain wisdom. I have found violin, cello and bass forums online to answer a lot of your questions. Without making this into an essay I can answer a few questions here for you. Typically sound posts are not glued. But I glued this one because I do not know how to fit a post in this instrument after it is made. The post is intended to vibrate a lot but with enough pressure to hold it in place. Thinning a top will have diminishing returns at some point. The post needs to have as perfect surface contact as possible on both ends. I recently built one bowed lyre with a thin top and I’m not as happy with the sound. It will always be hard to know the chain of causation for any sonic outcome. But being able to move your post and your bridge around after it is finished is a major positive. Pro builders would laugh at the glued soundpost on this one (the tiniest dab of hide glue was used). A normal sound post should have no less structural stability than triangular. Adding mass might just diminish the sound quality. I think gluing the bridge is a terrible idea. Being able to move it around will teach where the best voice or timbre is found (‘some’ of this is preference). You would be amazed at how much 0.5mm shift in position can make in any direction.. Some of these pcs need to be loose in order to vibrate and send those vibes to adjacent parts. Glued pcs vibrate less. In some traditions lute tops are very thin, but they get very quiet. Setar for example has a very thin top but was not designed for projection and was originally more for personal introspection or worship. The timbre of thin-top instruments like Setar is celestial. But some of the subtleties are as distant as stars in the sky. So it depends on what you’re going for. Thanks for the questions. I want to see how it turns out.
@@barefootarts737 Thank you very much for the fast response. I'll be sure NOT to glue my bridge then. As for the treble post, I gues I'll stick to the tried and true peg for now, though I willd efinitely be trying out the triangular peg in a later build. I would be more than happy to share the result with you, but I should not it is going to be a long time before I can. Like I said, I am making it at school and as such I will have to wait another 13 weeks before I can even start the construction on it (as we'll have a period of internshit first). But I will be sure to send you a link with results when the time comes!
@@barefootarts737 Hello again, I have since began construction on the instrument and gotten some further tips from my teachers, things are coming along nicely, however, there is still something I was wondering if you might be able to give some advice on. I have decided to base the instrument I am making on the ELDRIM uses called GNAAL. I really liked the sound of this particular one and it fit the specifications of our assignment the best. The instrument is tuned D-A-D and uses whit horsehair strings. I was wondering however if you could maybe tell me roughly how many strands of hair I should use for each string, as I myself have no experience in this matter. The string length for each of the strings from peg to bridge is about 63cm.
@@SafeCoast36 I usually carry around much more hair than I need and I just put Strings on it as guesswork. The question you are asking combines math and physics with too many variables. Consider stringing it to be part of the intuitive process rather than a engineering detail to get right. I have posted some metrics for UDMS strings somewhere here. On a similar question. Consider also that the sound from that video Eldrim Gnaal video is probably revealing the production quality more than the actual sound of the instrument. Along with the other aesthetic aspects of the production that went into it.
@@barefootarts737 One final question before the Tagelharpa is finished. I have come to the point that I can no longer put off making the bow, the problem is that I'm not entire sure how I should do that. I understand that the bow should be curved and I believe there shouldn't bu much tension on the hair on it. other than that I would guess the hairs need to be flat and parallel to each other. Is there anything I'm missing with those points? And do you have any further tips/tricks? Looking forwards to showing you the final results (I am very happy with the look of the instrument and I hope it sounds good too)
Good video. Is the British Isles bowed lyre you mentioned the Shetland Gue? Shetland and Orkney are just North of me in Caithness, mainland and quite proud of their Norse heritage. The Shetland fiddlers tend to be great. Scottish violin at one time had a great variation in regional styles and the Shetlanders very unique. Traditional Scots violin is a really high standard but I think lost something along the way. Cheers.
I'd like to hear more Scottish fiddle music. I appreciate the broad intervals Scots use in bagpipe melodies. I welcome any resources for Scottish music.
wonderful. i just made my first one, . . . can you please tell me how you made your bow? No one talks about that and i don't like th e 'store bought violin' bow i have i feel it doesn't have enough flex and i have black mongolian horse hair.
It depends on what sound you like. I have since this video moved to more tension and more hair with my bow. Only slightly bigger than the one shown here.
I agree that there aren’t a lot of instructions or information on these basic subjects. Many kinds of specialized knowledge are shrouded in mystery for different reasons. I believe some things are best known through lived experience. I think having 2 or 3 bows that are different and trying them all out over a long period of time would develop the sound and playability that you like.
It helps to have a sense of what other stringed instruments sound and feel like to play generally. But not necessary.
Per this request, I posted a (basic) video for making a bow last week.
Interesting. You got a loud and good sound from that build.
I'm about to start building one of these things myself, and I'm trying to analyze what you did differently that might have improved the sound. You mentioned string tension and rosin. I'm wondering if the violin-type f-slots might be a better shape, or if it's the oddball bridge that makes a difference, but who can say?
Can you tell me how thick the cedar top and oak back are? And are the sides the same thickness as the arms reaching up to the peghead? Thanks--
The top is about 3 mm thick
I don’t think the hole shape is as significant as having a treble post under the bridge foot like a violin, and a bass bar.
hole location does matter some. Persian Setar holes are made using golden mean ratios.
The side wall is thinner than the arms. I just took 2 planks, routered them out and glued them together. One had the arms, the other one didn’t. That part was quick and easy.
Don’t be afraid to experiment. One benefit of using horsehair is- you can get a grasp on what works for your instrument after stringing it up about 20 times. Haha
How’d your build go?
very nice mate
Thanks for your Video. Very interesting I want to build my own. The only thing i cant find is how much horsehair i need for the each string. You have that Information maybe? I will go with a EAE tuning.
The factors are vibrating string length combined with the note you want, and density of string material. It’s best to just get a string on there and try it out. I buy a bunch of hanks and experiment. Its better to break strings and find the sweet spot than it is to be afraid to do something wrong have a bad setup.
www.spikefiddle.com/strings
There is a link on this page about UDMS strings and calculators for it. You can just plug in the variables. I don’t use the calculators, but the article is worth reading. Nothing else like it online that I have seen regarding (Uni-Directional Multi-Strand) filament strings.
If the string is slinky and weak at the note you like, use more hair for the string. If its too tight (hairs breaking is one sign of this) and you still need to go up in pitch, use less hair.
Hello, great video! I am inteding to make one of these as part of my education (I am studying to be an instrument builder) and I was wondering if you could answer some questions I still have.
In another comment you mentioned a trebble post, and I am familiar with these from violins, I was however wondering if it would be possible to make that post in a triangular shape, with the wide side resting on the backboard. This would give additional structural integrity to the instrument (because you would break the paralellogram inside the instrument), meaning you could have thinner walls and sound/backboards. DO you think the post would still function with that shape?
Another thing I was wondering is this: The bridge is usually not glued to the soundboard, but what if you would do that? would it impact the sound greatly?
Lastly I'd like to ask if there are rules to the dimensions and positioning of the bass bar. I know it is supposed to go under the bass strings, but huld it have a certain thickness, width and length?
Thanks in advance
I am a woodworker by trade, but not a professional instrument builder. However I am building a few more that I will post soon.
My recommendation is to build your first with the most conventional, tried and tested techniques. This makes for less errors on your first build. And makes use of centuries of expertise. Which shows the builder to be a good student of certain wisdom.
I have found violin, cello and bass forums online to answer a lot of your questions. Without making this into an essay I can answer a few questions here for you.
Typically sound posts are not glued. But I glued this one because I do not know how to fit a post in this instrument after it is made. The post is intended to vibrate a lot but with enough pressure to hold it in place.
Thinning a top will have diminishing returns at some point. The post needs to have as perfect surface contact as possible on both ends.
I recently built one bowed lyre with a thin top and I’m not as happy with the sound.
It will always be hard to know the chain of causation for any sonic outcome. But being able to move your post and your bridge around after it is finished is a major positive. Pro builders would laugh at the glued soundpost on this one
(the tiniest dab of hide glue was used).
A normal sound post should have no less structural stability than triangular.
Adding mass might just diminish the sound quality.
I think gluing the bridge is a terrible idea. Being able to move it around will teach where the best voice or timbre is found
(‘some’ of this is preference). You would be amazed at how much 0.5mm shift in position can make in any direction..
Some of these pcs need to be loose in order to vibrate and send those vibes to adjacent parts. Glued pcs vibrate less.
In some traditions lute tops are very thin, but they get very quiet. Setar for example has a very thin top but was not designed for projection and was originally more for personal introspection or worship.
The timbre of thin-top instruments like Setar is celestial. But some of the subtleties are as distant as stars in the sky. So it depends on what you’re going for.
Thanks for the questions.
I want to see how it turns out.
@@barefootarts737 Thank you very much for the fast response. I'll be sure NOT to glue my bridge then. As for the treble post, I gues I'll stick to the tried and true peg for now, though I willd efinitely be trying out the triangular peg in a later build.
I would be more than happy to share the result with you, but I should not it is going to be a long time before I can. Like I said, I am making it at school and as such I will have to wait another 13 weeks before I can even start the construction on it (as we'll have a period of internshit first). But I will be sure to send you a link with results when the time comes!
@@barefootarts737 Hello again, I have since began construction on the instrument and gotten some further tips from my teachers, things are coming along nicely, however, there is still something I was wondering if you might be able to give some advice on. I have decided to base the instrument I am making on the ELDRIM uses called GNAAL. I really liked the sound of this particular one and it fit the specifications of our assignment the best. The instrument is tuned D-A-D and uses whit horsehair strings. I was wondering however if you could maybe tell me roughly how many strands of hair I should use for each string, as I myself have no experience in this matter. The string length for each of the strings from peg to bridge is about 63cm.
@@SafeCoast36 I usually carry around much more hair than I need and I just put Strings on it as guesswork. The question you are asking combines math and physics with too many variables.
Consider stringing it to be part of the intuitive process rather than a engineering detail to get right. I have posted some metrics for UDMS strings somewhere here. On a similar question.
Consider also that the sound from that video Eldrim Gnaal video is probably revealing the production quality more than the actual sound of the instrument. Along with the other aesthetic aspects of the production that went into it.
@@barefootarts737 One final question before the Tagelharpa is finished. I have come to the point that I can no longer put off making the bow, the problem is that I'm not entire sure how I should do that. I understand that the bow should be curved and I believe there shouldn't bu much tension on the hair on it. other than that I would guess the hairs need to be flat and parallel to each other. Is there anything I'm missing with those points? And do you have any further tips/tricks? Looking forwards to showing you the final results (I am very happy with the look of the instrument and I hope it sounds good too)
+ Norway
where you got horse hair?
no particular place. Online generally.