In the Prog Seat: Our Favorite Prog-Metal Bands 2000-2022
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- Опубліковано 24 сер 2024
- Join the In the Prog Seat crew for a look at their favorite prog-metal bands who have come on the scene since 2000. #progmetal
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Pete's picks:
Seventh Wonder
Tomorrow’s Eve
Haken
Spiral Architect
Between the Buried and Me
Mastodon
Riverside
Communic
Redemption
Sons of Apollo
Honorables:
Pagan’s Mind
Circus Maximus
Sun Caged
Into Eternity
Suspyre
Orphaned Land
Myrath
Obscura
Pathosray
George's picks:
1. Haken
2. Thank You Scientist
3. Darkwater
4. Caligula's Horse
5. Andromeda
6. Myrath
7. Sun Caged
8. Shaolin Death Squad
9. Redemption
10. Arch Matheos/Thought Chamber
HM:
Venturia
Seventh Wonder
Pagan's Mind
Leprous
Mastodon
Circus Maximus
Ken's picks:
Spiral Architect
Diablo Swing Orchestra
Arcane
Haken
Redemption
Green Carnation
Leprous
Circus Maximus
Exivious
Joseph Magazine
HM:
Canvas Solaris
Myrath
Adagio
Seventh Wonder
Andromeda
Need
Steven's picks:
1. HAKEN
2. SEVENTH WONDER
3. STAR ONE
4. AEON ZEN
5. HEKZ
6. TESSERACT
7. LALU
8. SONS OF APOLLO
9. THE CYBERIUM
10. ANURYZM
Honorable mentions:
ACUTE MIND
NEVER AWAKE
[HEADSPACE]
Thanks again PETE for these “ helpful lists for us “ students “ 👍💯
To add to the whole Riverside record label discussion, they are signed to the Mystic Productions label for Polish releases.
@@garyjoyce2160 Sorry I missed chat. Did you mark me absent? :)
@@georgelamie7001 \ Good AM. Not gonna lie, I kept waiting for you to “ pop up and make a guest” appearance. It never occurred!! Lol
Pete I think you were referring to the SoA show in 2020 at the Bergen Performing Arts Center in Englewood
George - I listened to Thank You Scientist after you talked about them on an episode a couple years ago and I freakin love them. I introduced my daughter to them and she loves them. We just saw them in June on their little summer tour (in Pomona, CA) and the show was great. I actually quite like Sal’s vocals - they are unique and somehow fit the quirkiness of their music. Great recommendation…thanks!
Thank You Scientist is a cool band.
Reading the comments is where I find out about new music. Thanks for the “Thank You Scientist” recommendation. Which recording is your favorite?
@@carlsalazar4490 Stranger Heads Prevail is definitely my favorite (but I enjoy them all). That’s the one George highlighted on one of the SoT episodes a couple years ago. Check it out…
Great band
1. Persefone
2. Ne Obliviscaris
3. Caligula's Horse
4. Turbulence
5. Haken
6. An Abstract Illusion
7. The Ocean Collective
8. Obscura
9. Green Carnation
10. Myrath
Here for the Spiral Architect picks… George you dropped the ball, but I still love you.
Once again thanks for another great show. Hailing from Australia myself, it’s so great to see Caligulas horse on here. As we are unfortunately not spoilt for choice in the metal realms down in Australia is great to see you appreciate them and they are incredible live. Another great prog metal band from Australia is Chaos Divine. Their albums the human connection and legacies are awesome. Great melodic prog metal with some killer riffing. Thanks for the endless effort you put into keeping this channel going Pete with all the fantastic guests. All the best!
Green Carnation totally new to me. Many thanks Ken Golden.
Great show as always and loved hearing some of your picks. Thank you so much for covering some of my favourite bands from the prog metal genre
1. Riverside
2. Seventh Wonder
3. Sons Of Apollo
4. Redemption
5. Circus Maximus
6. Soul Secret
7. Haken
8. Thought Chamber
9. Planet X
10. Tesseract
In no particular order:
Arch/Matheos
OSI
Wilderun
Pagan's Mind
Sun Caged
Tomorrow's Eve
Spiral Architect
Between the Buried and Me
The Ocean
The Contortionist
Riverside (prog rock/metal)
Green Carnation
Great to see Ken mention Green Carnation ( and they are also getting several mentions in the comments). A much underrated band.
Cheers Guys. Just saw Haken and Thank You Scientist live and they are both amazing bands. Thank You George for the plug for Thank You Scientist suggestion and Thank You Pete for the Haken suggestion. Two of my favorite newer bands by a long ways.
thanks for your list and lots of bands to check out
Another great episode Pete. SOT IS THE BEST CHANNEL ON UA-cam
Fantastic show and so many recommendations to check out 👍🏻
Kudos to Ken for mentioning Green Carnation tho. I'm not a massive fan of the acoustic stuff they're focusing on at the moment but Leaves Of Yesteryear from 2020 was fantastic. Hopefully we don't have to wait 15 years for another album 👍🏻
I did have a few of the same picks as you fellas:
Pagan's MInd - by a long shot
Circus Maximus
Communic
Riverside
Spiral Architect
Andromeda
Appreciate you all.
Great to see some love for the 1st 3 Diablo albums, almost never hear anybody talk about them, totally unique!
Hello from the UK 🇬🇧. Great show as always fella's. I thought I knew a little bit about music but you guys are on a different level to me. Half the bands you talk about I've never heard of. I love discovering new bands and their music. 🤘
Great show as always, thanks guys! I have a lot of stuff to catch up on after this! Here are my picks:
Mastodon
Ihsahn
Gojira
Vektor
Leprous
Blood Incantation
Horrendous
StarGazer
Disillusion
Karnivool
Hail Spirit Noir
Soen
Haken
Between the Buried and Me
Anciients
Green Carnation
Gorod
Beyond Creation
Jolly
Scale the Summit
Cheers 🤘🤘
Cool to hear you mention Orphaned Land Pete, but their debut came out way back in ‘94! Great band though.
My top 10….
Seventh Wonder
Myrath
Voyager
Circus Maximus
Pagan’s Mind
Darkwater
Caligula’s Horse
Haken
Thoughts Factory
Teramaze
I don’t know if I can count Orphaned Land or not. Technically they released two independent albums before 2000. But their major label debut, Mabool came out in 2004. If they count, probably would jump to number 2
Great list as always. Just to add a few, that weren't mentioned in the video:
Gojira
Vektor
Protest the Hero
Baroness
The Mars Volta
Frost*
The Ocean
Halcyon Way
Ne Obliviscaris
Animals as Leaders
The Ocean is a great band!!
Mars Volta is great actually, but not sure if they could be label as “metal” 🤔. Great list though 👍👍
Vektor - HQ thrash first and foremost not the other way around
Excellent show, great picks, learned some new bands to check out
Great show, like to put your attention to the band Imperial Age, just released a "best of " called Songs of Power and they will release a new album late this year. The vocals is out of this world.
nice to see Andromeda get some love. i remember finding that band randomly on youtube back in 2009 and fell in love with it.
1) Hail Spirit Noir
2) Monuments
3) Hypno5e
Maybe not within the parameters of SoT, but personally I'd love a spiritual jazz episode with Sir Ken Golden.
I am 57 years old and have never worn earplugs in my life. For good or bad, the loudness is part of the experience for me.
I understand that Lance. There's no right or wrong. I wear plugs these days and have for a long time but it's just a personal preference. Thanks for watching!
I have tinnitus from not wearing ear plugs and experiencing so many loud shows for so many years. I don’t want it getting worse nor do I want to lose any hearing, so plugs have been worn at every show for the last 4 years or so.
Insane loudness for me: Motorhead in Liverpool, think in 82, just a wall of noise!!!
I only have four - I don't have the time (or patience) I used to have to research new stuff -
1) Pagan's Mind
2) Circus Maximus
3) Anubis Gate
4) Redemption
Hi Guys. Great recommendations and I found out about a few newer bands.
The term 'Djent' apparently came from a guitarist; I think Misha Mansoor from Periphery, describing a guitar technique in an interview. Djent is an onomatopoeia; making a word that describes a sound, like sizzle. Anyway, it mainly caught on in the guitar player community, and I suppose fans of modern prog metal. Pete and the guys were picking on 'Djent' music a bit for it's extreme technicalities, which I totally get. A month ago or so, Andy Edwards said it sounds like a computer program, or maybe a cyborg playing music. Again, I get it... though the guys then talk about their favorite stuff and describe it favorably as technical and complex. Could it be that us older guys haven't fully absorbed this latest style and sound? Though I do like certain bands; Modern Day Babylon, Wide Eyes, Animals as Leaders, Plini, Helix Nebula, and Scoredatura (Scoredatura not as cyborgish). It's like Dylan going electric, or more so like, say, rockabilly or 60's rock fans hearing Hendrix, Iommi, Page, J. Beck.
Fabulous stuff picks from all around the globe and you guys pretty much covered the entire spectrum
These would be my picks in no particular order
Beyond creation
Obscura
Gojira
Animals as leaders
Ulcerate
Leprous
Between the buried and me
Riverside
Mastodon
Be'lakor
Honorable mentions
Sunset in the 12th house
Tesseract
Chthe'illist
Redemption
Kingcrow
Darkwater
Morbus chron
Eccentric pendulum
Scale the summit
Revocation
In the silence
Some great stuff there!!
@@TranquilityFireReid thanks mate!
Very good list!, maybe you should check Aenaon (Grece), and Gonin Isshu (Japan), they both will blow your mind, be careful 😉
@@Ferion333 Yes, Gonin Isshu are phenomenal!
@@Ferion333 I have heard aenaon before but need to dive deeper! Gonin Ishu are super cool but again need to dive deeper! Thanks!
Hey guys, great show. You spent some time discussing ear plugs when remembering Sons of Apollo. I have a need for plugs but have had issues with supposed "high end" plugs that only let the bottom end come through. Can you please offer up some options for full range plugs? Thanks so much.
Another good episode, agree with haken for #1.
Hard to argue.
Brilliant show - my favourite genre (?)
Good show ❤ SOT
My second fave genre.
Seventh Wonder, Haken, Riverside, Star One, Redemption, Circus Maximus, Darkwater, Riverside, LALU, Need
Honorables: Sun Caged, Leprous, Tesseract
and yes ARK - Burn the sun is the best prog metal album in this period! The guitarist of Conception (what a great band) Tore Ostby and Jorn. The latest from Need is Norchestrion. Anotherf great album.
Imminent Sonic Destruction from Detroit...Tony Piccolli n Co...3 albums n a live from Token Louge rock....excellent prog metal
So grateful to "hear" you all talk about concerts being too loud!! I always bring ear plugs now, and can actually hear the music! AC/DC during the 80's was the loudest band ive ever seen!
Toss up between AC/DC at the Apollo, Motorhead at the Barrowlands ( Barras) or.....Oasis!
Dam that Green Carnation is brilliant, can’t stop listening to them.
Carisma !!! Another brilliant album.
Oldie but a goodie.
Sons of Apollo played in Motherwell that's class, hopefully they come back to UK again
The loudest gig I have been at was Machine Head opening for Slayer at Wolverhampton Civic.
Very informative as ever gents, a fair few bands to check out that were new to me!
Not a huge fan of more recent prog-metal, so a top 5 from me
5. Sons of Apollo
4. Seventh Wonder
3. Stream Of Passion
2. Haken
1. Star One
Arch Matheos has done two great albums. Pronounced Ma-thay-os 😉
For me;-
Riverside
Mastodon
TesseracT
Sons of Apollo
Haken
Between The Buried and Me
Baroness
Animals as Leaders
Caligula's Horse
Leprous
Yeah, I meant to include Animals As Leaders on my list David!
@@TranquilityFireReid one was very surprised that you didn’t!😀
Wow! No Epica! If you're going to allow for Riverside (one of my all time favorite bands) you should have been able to include Epica. But it seems they didn't make the cut. They would be in my top 5. Good show, BTW. I'm definitely checking out some of the picks.
A few more that I don't believe were mentioned:
Pyramid Theorem
Circle of Illusion
Ostura
Marching Mind
To-Mera
Scardust
Ken , you have to listen to Heart of ages by In the woods. This is the band prior to Green Carnation . Especially the first song : yearning the seeds of a new dimension. Very symphonic / athmospheric “Black” metal.
Thanks for the reminder Stig. I used to sell Omnio when it was released. Have not spun it in years.
It occurred to me that maybe a show could be made about what kind of equipment people from the team use to listen to music at home, since of course I am very interested in HIFI and enjoy quality sound. Just an idea.
I'm probably the only high end guy. My system is as follows: Speakers: Rockport Technologies Aquila / Phono Preamp: Boulder 2008 / Preamp: Boulder 2010 / Amp: Boulder 2060 / Interconnects & Cables: Transparent Audio Reference XL / Power: Transparent Audio Reference XL/Nordost Quantum QBase8 / Phono: TW Acustic AC Anniversary, TW Acustic Raven 10.5 arm, Lyra Atlas Lambda SL, Graham 2.2 arm, Miyajima Zero Mono / Digital: Bricasti M1 Special Edition - Network version / Racks: SRA Scuttle3 rack + various SRA/Symposium stands
Greetings!
No ranking here, as I would have included in my top 10 quite a few of the bands listed. Instead, some of the notable misses I identified :
Karnivool : surprised that nobody mentioned them, one level above their fellow Aussies Caligula's Horse, to my opinion
The Mars Volta : really can't imagine a top 10 without them here!
Animals As Leaders, Polyphia : flagships of instrumental, djent-, math-, whatever- Prog Metal
Klone : french band whose last two albums are absolutely fantastic, after having evolved from hardcore Metal to a more melodic Prog Metal style
In The Silence : one album out so far (A Fair Dream Gone Mad) - great guitarworks, decent singer, catchy, atmospheric songs - looking forward to their second album after their reunion
Soulsplitter : new German band, clearly my favourites these last years with two mindblowing albums out (Salutogenesis & Connection), including metal, progressive, doom and even jazzy elements, with a fantastic guitarist
I remember being insulted for wearing earplugs at an Alice Cooper gig. I think they must have thought I couldn't hear them talking about me.
That made me laugh out (very) loud Michael!!!
Hi guys, great show Most of my favourites got a mention (Myrath, Seventh Wonder, Redemption, etc) but here are a couple you should try if they're yet to cross your path...
OCEANS OF SLUMBER (new album out this month)
SCARDUST 'Strangers' (2020) from Israel
Thanks Iain!
I think the vocals on Hekz albums fit the music perfectly. Prog has always been theatrical. Aeon Zen are good as well as Lost in Thought from Wales and ex Threshold guitarist Pete Morten's solo project, the name of which escapes me. Scar Symmetry are also great.
My Soliloquy
My favourite prog-metal band of the 2000's, have got to be British band Threshold. I'd chuck in Avantasia, Star One and Aryeon. Maybe Presto Ballet, not sure if they'd be classed as prog-metal and Coheed & Cambria.
Don't forget Andromeda Extension of the Wish I bought it when it came out back in 2001.
Mr lamie no softies
Not really my sort of music, it it’s still a very watch, thanks to everyone taking part.
Hi guys what's your opinion on rivers of nihil, are they a prog death metal?
I'd add Voyager (AU) to the mix - their last 2-3 albums are particularly great 👍
oh, and Karnivool (AU) - Sound Awake is a masterpiece
Agree 100% with Ken on Circus Maximus. I just have no interest after the 3rd album with the 1st Chapter being my favorite. My favorites not mentioned. Earthside, Transcend, Soulsplitter and New band that I think will just keep rising - Altesia.
Ken - I would love to hear more about the making of Screptic’s Universe. If it’s online somewhere show me the way. Are there any demos, rehearsals, live recordings that could go on a deluxe reissue?
Go on the In the Prog Seat playlist and play #33. I beleieve it gets dissected on that one
The only thing I have is the soundboard of their ProgPower gig but the mix is a total mess. You can’t hear Steinar. Pretty much unusable.
Scoredatura: 'Tense' and 'Honest Oblivion' (2015 & 2018). Instrumental-Proggish-Metal/HardRock. I'm 61 and feel like I'm 16 with excitement and obsession for this stuff for about six months now. Somebody in the band called them, "Miles meets Meshugga". I would say more like, "Sabbath meets Mahavishnu meets Meshugga". Any reference here to jazz only comes with a definition of jazz being; musical themes with abstract melodies and rhythms. ua-cam.com/users/results?search_query=scoredatura If you're intrigued at first listen, but not head over heels, I would keep going back to it. That's how it happened to me. Now I love every song they have; 2 albums and 2 singles (2021); 22 songs.
Maybe more in progressive hard rock than metal, but Beardfish would be easily my #1 since 2000. What a unique band they were
In alphabetical order:
1.-Aenaon (Grece)
2.-Furia (Poland) in they latter period because they started as a (fantastic) Black Metal band.
3.-Haken (England)
4.-Ihsahn (Norway)
5.-Leprous (Norway)
6.-Obscura (Germany)
7. Gonin-Isshu (Japan) maybe I'm cheating because they release a demo in 1999 😜 but is a f’n great band period.
Ken you are right about Joseph Magazine, sounds amazing.
New lineup working on a 2nd album.
I am also a self confessed audiophiles and it sounds amazing on my Magnepan.7 speakers and dual subs
Between the Buried and Me are the best band in this genre IMO. They have lapped everyone and keep getting better. I like the second Arch-Matheos and the Ray Alder solo album. I think Both are much better than the last Fates Warning album. Besides Crack the Skye is Mastodon really a prog metal band or a metal band that made a prog album, I think the second one.
please you have to listen Virus from norway, you can choose any record of them all are amazing
Hi Pete, what's happened to Luis? He's one of my favourite contributors. Would also like to see more of Andy Edwards if possible.
He is on tour. He will return.
The Fullness of Time is an all-time classic. The ones after are great, but TFOT is a step above. I also did not like Tom Englund singing with Redemption. Did not fit at all and Redemption has kind of gone inactive.
Steven - you must get Green Carnation Light of Day, Day of Darkness. You will not regret it. Their ProgPower performance of the album is one of the best ever.
Caligula's Horse is right on Haken's tail as the current best program metal band. Another classic ProgPower performance.
Thanks Jimmy. I'll definitely check them out.
I second Green Carnation. I never thought I would see them perform Light of Day, Day of Darkness at PPUSA. They were amazing.
Green Carnation is incredible
Hey I'm that guy that complained. lol Pete told me no one watches the prog metal themed shows when I complained about not enough prog metal. Well I'm watching! Did PoS pre-date 2000? Come on Pete you need them on there.
Ken aka Old Man Prog correct me if I'm wrong, but was not Haken's first show in the States at ProgPower?Well I was there to see it. Ken deserves all the credit in the world for breaking that band. They're without a doubt the #1 prog metal band today.
Prog Power was their first US show. Tom was still the bassist.
I remember when Glenn announced them no one had any idea who they were. Well they killed it and haven't stopped since.
Pain of Salvation debuted before 2000.
@@seaoftranquilityprog Give him hell Pete!
Ken please get Pete to review the Paradox Twin. That's the best thing I bought from you this year after Glenn's annual list. They do Anathema better than Anathema was doing.
Show idea for future.... psychedelic albums which could be deemed the birth of prog.
On another note, gigs are a mixed bag now, you have Battles between sound guys and the band. I've been a sound guy for metal and punk bands. Bassists can't play without the Amps being high, guitarists always want to be louder than everyone. As for most sound guys today a lot are taught at music school.... the best sound is just to not have the instruments in the PA, just have vocals, especially in a smaller venue.
Maybe Sons of Apollo used the sound guy for Motorhead haha
Beardfish needs to be on the someones list.
I don't listen Prog-Metal but Nice show...I will try Haken...Thanks guys.😄👍
1. Mastodon
2. Haken
3. Riverside
4. Persefone
5. The Ocean
6. Green Carnation
7. Arch/Matheos
8. Iapetus
9. Spiral Architect
10.Caligula's Horse
Honorable Mentions
Sons of Apollo
Ne Obliviscaris
Wilderun
Orphaned Land
Thank You Scientist
Gojira
Mastodon
Tomahawk
Between the Buried and Me
Caligulas Horse
Dvne
Haken
Iotunn
Leprosy
Contortionist
Neobliviscarus
The Ocean
Persephone
Slugdge
Zero Hour
Ark is great, "Burn the Sun" blew me away from the first listen. Easily my favorite project Jorn has ever been a part of and that's saying something.
Steven, I also cannot stand the Djent label but I have been a fan of Meshuggah (godfathers o fthe genre) since "Destroy Erase Improve" came out. regarding Tesseract, I quite enjoy some of their stuff but they kept changing vocalist like socks, and some of them (mostly on the EPs) were quite BAD. I would take Periphery (starting with 2nd album and 2nd singer) over them any day. Cheers !
Why was my comment deleted? 😐
Great job Ken. I ask forgiveness for any previoness insults to
Great job Ken appologize for any previous insults.
You are forgiven my son.
#IntheProgseat-5 Prog suggestions for beginners
Wilderun is a great band that wasn't mentioned. Obscura is not a prog band, you did a whole show on tech death bands and they were mentioned a lot.
Wilderun were overlooked for sure.
Haken
Seventh Wonder
Caligula’s Horse
The Contortionist
Circus Maximus
Epica
Jinjer
Leprous
Thank You Scientist
Gojira
Some great picks in there. Love The Contortionist!
Alamaailman Vasarat
Sleepytime Gorilla Museum
Diablo Swing Orchestra
Stolen Babies
Behold .... The Arctopus
Great great show guys bookmarked a bunch of albums for listening
4. MIKE OLDFIELD 1976 BOXED
In 1976 Mike Oldfield took a break after three "hit" albums. Virgin thought it was a good idea to remix Tubular Bells (1973), Hergest Ridge (1974) and Ommadawn (1975) in quad. Those three remixes were put together in a box and released as Boxed (1976). Mike's quad mix of Hergest Ridge was the most interesting of the three because it differered quite a bit from the original stereo mix. Eventually almost every forthcoming release of Hergest Ridge (both on LP and CD) would feature this new quad mix. It wasn't until the 2010 remaster of Hergest Ridge that we could hear the original 1974 stereo mix in digital format. Another interesting thing was the inclusion of the "drunken" version of Sailor's Hornpipe, the traditional that closed Part Two of Tubular Bells. Richard Branson didn't like that version with vocals from Vivian Stanshall and it was replaced by a sped up instrumental version. On Boxed you can discover Mike's original idea.
There was also a fourth disc in the Boxed (1976) box: the so called Collaborations record. Side 1 featured excerpts from three David Bedford albums (also on Virgin) with Mike guesting on guitar. Extract from Star's End was taken from Star's End (1974), The Rio Grande can be found on The Rime Of The Ancient Mariner (1975) and Phaecian Games originates from The Odyssey (1976). Remember Bedford arranged Tubular Bells for orchestra in 1974 and released it as The Orchestral Tubular Bells in 1975. On the already mentioned Hergest Ridge 2CD set from 2010 you can find The Orchestral Hergest Ridge, although this adaptation was never officialy released on vinyl back in the days.
David Bedford also appears on side 2 of Collaborations. The opening track First Excursion was one of the three new recordings on Boxed (1976). Oldfield stunning 70's guitar tones interwoven with Bedfords neoclassical piano playing turn this 6 minutes piece into a fantastic listening experience. The closing track is a no more than a joke: David and Mike sing an out of tune duet on Speak (Tho' You Only Say Farewell), a cover from the old songbook. It was a recording that dated back to 1974. In between are the three instrumental traditionals Mike recorded with record player Leslie Penning. In Dulci Jubilo had been a hit in 1975, Portsmouth was the new single and the more moody piece Argiers was used as a B-side.
You can read the first three chapters in the comments of the previous epîsoded of In The Prog Seat. Next week: Mike Oldfield 1977.
Not one of my big genres but I do have some. My fave bands:
Abydos
Dali's Dilemma
Damn The Machine
Derek Sherinian
Devin Townsend
Distorted Harmony
Dream Theater
Greg Howe (Howe II)
Haken
Kiama
Mullmuzzler
OSI
Pagan's Mind
Pain Of Salvation
Planet X
Poverty's No Crime
Shadow Gallery
Sithu Aye
Thought Chamber
Vanden Plas
I don't consider Riverside or Thank You Scientist as being prog metal, same with Lalu, Caligula's Horse & Andromeda (I do like all five at least to some extent)
A good chunk of your list all debuted pre-2000.
@@seaoftranquilityprog You're right, I was doing my list of ALL prog metal that I like (I really don't have that much compared to other genres) & I missed the part about "since 2000". Oops😒
Damn no one likes Coheed and Cambria? ( maybe not prog metal but at least prog)
Not prog-metal...which is the topic.
I understand. Great show btw and thanks for the reply
To long
Got somewhere to be, do you? If only there was some kind of feature that allowed you to stop the video and come back later, or even fast-forward! No, no way. Technology just isn't there yet.
@@nectarinedreams7208 Boring when it's this long