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The Science of Prison | Sci Guys Podcast
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- Опубліковано 11 лют 2023
- To mark 200 episodes of Sci Guys we're tackling studies on incarceration, and asking the question: does prison work?
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References & Further Reading
Prison Basics
www.britannica.com/topic/prison
researchbriefings.files.parli...
prisonreformtrust.org.uk/wp-c...
www.gov.uk/life-in-prison/pri...
Does Prison Work?
• Prison and Why We Send...
• America’s Prison Syste...
• Do Prisons Work? - Pro...
• What would a world wit...
www.law.ac.uk/resources/blog/...
www.unodc.org/unodc/en/justic...
www.wlv.ac.uk/media/departmen...
www.scientificamerican.com/ar...
www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/...
Working in Prison
uklabourlawblog.com/2022/12/1....
blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpo...
uklabourlawblog.com/2022/12/1....
Prison & Mental Health
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32258...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26330...
Alternatives to Prison
www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...
www.theguardian.com/commentis...
famm.org/wp-content/uploads/F...
Autism Study
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
Stanford Prison Experiment
• The Stanford Prison Ex...
nypost.com/2018/06/14/famed-s...
Using Prisoners In Scientific Studies
harvardcrcl.org/the-shackles-...
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@notcorry / @lukecutforth
Do you think prison works? Did this episode change your mind?
No not really I think they should improve the system since it’s so fucked up
I feel like it works only when the INTENT is rehabilitation and not just brutal punishment.
My opinion at the start of the episode:
I mean, whether prison works or not is highly dependent on WHERE in the world you are and what the prison system is like in that place. What intention is behind prison sentences. What prisoners are able to do while in prison. For example, if they are incarcerated for drug problem related charges, are they simply locked up or do they have access to therapy and/or other treatments? Is therapy available to the prisoners in general? Is it possible to learn a trade or get a dregree while you are incarcerated? Or is there nothing for you to do to spend your time in meaningful ways that at least guarantee that you won't go insane from pure boredom/frustration alone?
While I can absolutely see where people are coming from when they find certain Scandinavian approaches controversial etc. with stuff like having prisoners live in normal houses and being able to walk to a supermarket and stuff like that... I can also see the idea behind it - namely, the idea that if you want to rehabilitate people to be functioning members of a society you probably have to MODEL a functioning society at least on some level so that there's an opportunity for people to LEARN how that works. Especially if you want to avoid this thing where someone who went to prison (even when they have no intention of doing any other crimes etc.) might find it very difficult and jarring to re-integrate inti society because suddenly they have to make so many decisions on their own again. Kind of like how you might experience reverse culture shock after living in a foreign country for an extended period of time. Of course this approach is not necessarily applicable to every kind of person who enters the prison system. But i get the thought process that went into this idea of prison.
Another big factor is how does society treat you AFTER you've done your time? Even if you have learned a trade or if you got a diploma while you were doing your time, that alone is unfortunately no guarantee for a an ex-prisoner to have a better perspective after prison, if society is unwilling to give a second chance and employ this person based on the trade they learned or the diploma they got. And if the perspective isn't getting better that may well lead a person back to committing more crimes. Until they are caught again and get back into the prison system. Which at that point can easily turn into a repeating cycle because the stigma doesn't magically disappear if they get out next time with MORE time spent in prison attached to their name.
So it very much depends on WHY you sent people to prison, WHAT kind of people you sent to prison, HOW the prison sentence is executed and WHAT TREATMENTS/COURSES/OPPORTUNITIES are available for people while incarcerated and HOW SOCIETY treats people once they are out of prison again.
A lot of the things that aim at rehabilitating someone (like drug rehab, therapy, learning a trade/getting an education) could feasibly be done outside of actual incarceration, I suppose. Especially if the crime committed isn't violent and/or the person in question is young and/or if it's someone's first crime and/or the crime wasn't committed out of soem aspiration to be some type of career criminal but out of desperation. That could arguably be dealt with with something like house arrest plus mandatory therapy/rehab plus something like community service to give back to society more or less instantly. Or something of the sort. And I think in some countries (my home country included I believe) stuff like this is possible and also done somewhat regularly.
And through kind of outsourcing that sort of stuff you probably also have higher chances of preventing especially young, non-violent, first time offenders from basically going to "How to become a better/more efficient/more dangerous criminal school" when they go to prison and meet people who are already career criminals etc.
Oh, and I forgot to mention: The best thing you can obviously do is, of course, PREVENTION. Which can include things like having a good basic education (primary + secondary level) be accessible, having an actually liveable minimum wage that also takes inflation into account, having accessible health care and destigmatising mental health care and even things like making at least some drugs legal to purchase (but not necessarily in a blanket "everybody can now buy this drug" way - laws like having a minimum drinking age and a limit for how drunk you can be while still being allowed to drive etc. are there for a reason and that concept absolutely should be applied to other substances, too, if they're made legal IMHO) can absoultely help PREVENT crimes from happening.
Anyway. My point is that there are probably some alternatives to merely putting people in prison and locking them away and hoping that somehow spending enough time in "time out" will make those people stop committing more crimes in the future. I also think that even if you don't do that outsourcing thing that I mentioned you absolutely can do prison in ways that work better than merely putting people in prison cells and locking the door and basically then being done with it. Like with having therapy accessible in prison etc. And that kind of prison is probably the kind that works at least on SOME level. I also heard somewhere that while not always the case in some cases the mere existence and therefore the threat of prison does apparently sort of scare some people enough to do a double take and reconsider what options they actually have instead of just doing whatever they want/committing crimes willy-nilly/committing crimes out of a desperation that may be big enough to consider doing crime but not strong enough to see no other way anymore. So I suppose if that's true that is an unexpected way in which prison "works" by... being preventative in a threatening way, I guess??? And lastly, I do think that for some types of crimes like for instance people who would actually run around & gleefully murder others or people who are pedophiles it is actually justified to have a desire for a place where you can lock them up to keep the rest of society safe^^
So yeah... I guess my early answer to this question is: Prison KIND OF works. But there are A LOT of factors involved in whether or not it is working at all and how well it is working specifically. And those factors are influenced by where in the world you are (and at what point in history, too, I guess). BUT there are (probably) other things that also work and that might work even better. And the best thing regardless is PREVENTION.
Let's see if that opinion will change, shall we?
I don't think prisons work in terms of keeping scarring folks out of committing crime, I've heard Norway has made some strives by focusing on rehabilitation rather than punishment.
To be honest most version of the justice system seems to me like it's really just a form of systematic revenge to make us feel good, rather than an actual solution to the issue(s) at hand.
No, it doesn't work. My bones will turn to dust on this hill.
Fun fact: In Germany it is NOT illegal to break out of prison. However, basically any method that you could use to do so involves committing some sort of crime like bribing a guard, smuggling something, destroying (state) property etc. And that, of course, is still illegal. But you won't be punished/get additional time to your sentence, IF you should somehow succeed in breaking out without committng any other crime. The reason for that is that in Germany the desire to be free/for freedom is considered a natural human instinct and you won't be punished for basically being a human person.
it's the same in the Netherlands
@@sogghartha Interesting! I didn't know that.
That's really interesting!
My brother spent 5 years in prison. He is autistic which was undiagnosed at the time. Prison did change him, it gave him PTSD and agoraphobia.
An episode on chronic fatigue syndrome would be interesting and bring much needed awareness.
It's a mystery and thus been disregarded in medicine for a long time. People are told it's psychological but there is no evidence for this. the main treatment recommended for it has been shown in studies to make patients worse not better and yet it's still recommended. There are communities online of so many people who've been suffering for years and losing hope. The current research going into it is also incredibly fascinating looking at the immune system and the gut for possible causes.
And fibromyalgia
Gah. It's been about three years since I've been out of a mental hospital. They don't really do much for you if you are hysterical and yelling except sedate you. If I ever go off my meds, I might start going hysterical again. I don't want that. At least I know what to expect, so I may not freak out as badly as last time? I feel like all that mental hospital stuff was a blur, it almost felt like a dream somehow. I remembered my hair being dyed green a little bit for some reason. I also remember it being very hard to take showers. Like everything of common sense just went out the window metaphorically. I didn't understand the difference between clean and dirty, and kept drawing conclusions that didn't make any sense. I hope that they improve their understanding of mental health soon, because nobody should have to go through what I went through when I was scared.
That's fucked up
The prison discharge grant (£76) is just a one off payment you get given when you leave. Basically so you can sort your self out the first few days you're out for food, toiletries stuff like that. You used to get your travel paid to get "home" if you've been in prison away from the area you normally live in.
75 pounds seems like, an indequate amount of money to feed, cloth, and house yourself for even 2 or 3 days, which isnt enough time to find work, or, for most people, find someome sympathetic who will let you crash on their couch.
@@KiAirah87 I agree, it's a ridiculously small amount of money, especially if you're coming out to nothing. Until a couple years ago it was only £46. It's clear the amount is set by politicians who have no clue how much things really cost and no understanding that somebody could literally have no access to other money, no secret offshore bank accounts to fall back on 🙄 I don't know how they expect anybody to not resort to things like shoplifting or begging to survive when that's what you provide them. I think if people work whilst they are in prison they should get minimum wage for their hours and it goes into an account ready for them when they leave.
You should do an episode on fibromyalgia
This!
Not so fun fact: aboriginal Australians are the most incarcerated race on earth (percentage wise) making up 27% of the prison population and only 3% of the general population
I discovered this podcast recently, and I've been non-stop watching the episodes! I think you guys should totally do an episode on the radium girls.
Thats a really good idea actually
You probably already know this by know, but just in case, remember you can submit/vote on episode ideas on their patreon!
(just want to share this)
in my country, some people do crime on purpose just to get in jail because they don't have enough money to buy food/ find the place to sleep. Also, there are some household murder case like son killed his father in order to protect his mom from being abused/ r**ped by father, wife killed her husband because he had been abusing her and her kids to the point that she can't stand it. Many case had been reporting to police officer and they had done nothing.
! looking at different ethnicities I think it would be very important and conclusive to also include people of the different Sinti and Roma population groups,, as they're increasingly marginalised and criminalised, evicted and displaced. most recently they have been disproportionately affected by the 2022 "police act" (Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022)
Is it a coincidence that when Luke sings “Sci Guys Pod” at the end it’s in the same tune that the radio station says “this is Heart”? I don’t know why but I’ve been thinking about this for years
Currently, before the episode, no, I don't think the prison system works to rehabilitate or work as a deterrent/punishment for the majority of people.
Edit after listening: yeah... unfortunately I figured the outcome would be, yup, it doesn't work. Learning the particulars of why was interesting though.
Comment 1: Prisons as they are in most of the world don't work if they're meant to stop people from committing crimes. (It's even more messed up in places like USA, where prison labor and not being able to vote is a huge incentive to incarcerate people.)
Woah I didn't even think about that last point! That can technically be an elaborate scheme to stop people from voting! (that costs tax payers a lot of money)
There was some articles in 2018 analysing the effectiveness of treating crime like an epidemic/public health crisis
Could we have an episode on piercings
Poverty leads to/exasperates mental health stuff in the first place too weee
Congrats on 200!
i would love to hear more about the other options we have, if we were to abolish prisons as they are. would have loved to hear more about norway's prisons- a very low reincarceration rate if i remember correctly. about 3%
Depends what the point of prison is, rehabilitation, punishment or both. It certainly isn't successful at rehabilitation with the majority of prisoners more likely to be further incarcerated than not.
the rehabilitation rate depends for a large part on how they are treated in prison and how ex-cons are treated once they are released. e.g. the US prison system is designed to have a high recidivism rate cause prisons make money off of prison labor.
And whats the point of punishing addicts, some of whom genuinely havent hurt anyone (except themselves) any more than the average cigarette smoker, who buy their own cigarettes, smoke outside in well ventilated areas away from non-smokers, and who dont encourage any one else to do what they are doing. Lots of addicts who are like this end up in Prison in the U.S. and it makes them less productive, less healthy, less likely to properly recover and stabilize, and less likely to achieve independence and self sufficiency, all of which increase their likelihood of getting involved in more serious crimes than using drugs privately.
But in Luke's dream, did he eat the shrew
Also congratulations on 200 episodes
At the beginning of the episode: no. The current system fails as a deterrent in most situations and is even worse at rehabilitation. Working very well at the making money thing tho, so I image the people profiting think it’s working just fine
Finding out about the amount of people with adhd and people with autism are in prison? Jesus Christ. Bleak
Court mandated therapy might be good to help instead of prisons
I definitely think prison doesn't work. I can see lots of solutions for non-violent crimes such as the ones you spoke about. However, I think extremely violent crimes such as lots of murders or SAs it would be pretty hard to make both the victims feel safer and not be like ok just go to prison. This is not to say it can't be done I just struggle to see a solution myself.
I feel like a lot of our "they have been there forever actually come from the Victorian area - cemeteries, postal systems etc....
i haven't watched the video yet but i'm very anti-prison and anti-police more generally. prison hides and harms the most marginalized peoples without preventing violence and many 'crimes' aren't really harmful to individual people (eg: shoplifting)
hi guys can you please elaborate on why prisons are beneficial to governments at all if it costs a lot to maintain them? does the cheap labor of the convicted bring any profit on top of offsetting the maintenance cost?
I agree with Luke
Do prisons work? No, but the Norwegian prisons are great, to my knowledge. In school we learned that in the US 80% of the people who get out of prison end up there again, in Norway that’s 20%.
I know it sounds horrible but I am not surprised about systemic racism anymore. We looked at those statistics for the US in school and it doesn’t look good.
I never heard about 25% of people in prison having (undiagnosed) ADHD and just generally there being a higher percentage of people with learning disabilities and people on the autism spectrum and that’s horrifying to think about.
After the video I still think prisons don’t work and I also think it’s even worse than I thought (which I didn’t think was possible) and I am now going on a Google marathon to find out if it’s just as bad/worse where I live.
Lol. “He dreamt he was American”. Yup. 😂🎉😂🎉 USA We’re number one!!! (in medical debt and prisoners per capita)
The other thing that prison is meant to achieve, and the only thing beside containment which it achieves well, is the non-abolition of prison.
Works for what?
Prison, in America at least, isn't designed to work as far as helping criminals get back on the straight and narrow. It was literally designed to replace slavery. When the US finally outlawed slavery we replaced them with private prisons, in which the prisoners are leased out to companies to do labor either for free or for absolute minimal pay. That's one of the reasons marginalized groups, and Black people in particular are so heavily targeted by police. Basically they'd arrest Black people, usually for being Black in public or something along those lines, lock them up, and then sell their labor to the highest bidder. For a while most people overlooked this system, until a white man with some significant connections was arrested, imprisoned, and forced to do labor. Once this happened there was an uproar in the media and general public. Of course, the system didn't really change, they just got that guy out of it.
As for political prisoners, America operates Guantamo Bay where the majority of prisoners are charged with terrorism or not even charged at all. In this prison they practice some of the most despicable torture methods developed by humanity, otherwise known as enhanced interrogation techniques. Waterboarding, for example, is basically how they introduce new prisoners.
A comment on white collar crimes: the US government gave the oil industry millions of dollars last year to increase domestic production and hire more employees. The oil companies did neither of those things, they stuck to the plans they'd developed that promised their shareholders and executives the most profit. They weren't even secretive about it either. There's footage of an oil executive going on a news channel to do an interview, in which the host asks whether they would change their plans to increase production, increase available jobs, and prevent gas prices from increasing. The oil executive responds that they are beholden to their shareholders and will not change their plans for production under any circumstances if it doesn't directly benefit the shareholders.
Ī dont think dont work (beginnings
whether or not prisons work depends entirely on what the purpose of a prison actually is.
If their purpose is to protect people from harm, to deter crime and/or to rehabilitate inmates then no, prisons demonstrably don't work.
If however, as I am convinced, the point of prisons is to disenfranchise (racial) minorities and other "undesirables", to exploit prison labour (aka slavery), to generate profit for the Prison-industrial complex, and/or to to disappear politically inconvenient individuals and groups, then they work perfectly fine.
Obviously not all prisons are equal and thus not all prisons serve the same goals (or achieve them to the same degree), I'm sure there are other purposes that prisons are perfectly well suited for. But I'm equally as certain that prisons don't and can't provide anything beneficial for our society that more compassionate systems couldn't provide just as well if not better.
Also, in western culture, particularly Im speaking to U.S. culture, and its more exaggerated in the judicial branch of the government... "disability" is a dirty word, and the only way people want to talk about it is through unrealistic inspiration porn about the minority of disabled people who manage to be exceptionally successful even compared to healthy people. This is set up as the only appropriate story for disabled people, and if they are not exceptional enough to be even more successful than healthy average people, they are seen as lazy. Even worse there is a lot of lingering Eugenic ideology, where people behave as if it is shameful to live as a disabled person if you Can't justify your existence through exceptionalism. Too often even organizations who claim to be invested in helping disabled people ascribe to these attitudes to some extent, although of course they dont advertise the eugenics.
People dont acknowledge invisible disability. Mental health disability is treated as unclean, and sufferers are treated as criminal or at best, feeble, even if they have 140 IQ and college degrees, if they have mental health issues that interfere with their ability to function, they are looked down on. People often insist they are tolerant of mental illness by citing friends and loved who are functional, independent, and successful, but happen to take anxiety meds or antidepressants... not understanding that, when mental illness becomes a disability, by definition you cant function properly to be independent and effective, much less successful and exceptional.
So, for someone to bring up ADHD, Autism, Depression, Psychosis, PTSD, OCD, etc, during a trial, could and often does backfire significantly for the defendant, because people have been groomed by the media to think that being disabled just means you need to find a way to justify your existence by being superhuman in other respects.
There are many states in the U.S. that provide no work place protection, or equal opportunity rights, for people with mental health. Many legal rights to medical, legal, and economic autonomy are routinely disregarded when its convenient for the courts or for relatives when it comes to mentally ill people.
The system is, arguably predatory towards people with cognitive issues and mental health problems.
We will only make this better if we advocate for ourselves amd for friends, loved ones, and peers who struggle with invisible disability.
I think prison as a whole does work. How the government handles prisoners, however, is messed up. They let people out that they shouldn’t let out by good behavior and all of that.
I think a lot of people need to go into mental institutions instead of prisons. However, a lot of institutions won’t take people for as long as they need to be in there.
@@danielhilderbrand7393I’d argue almost every prisoner should be sent to at least therapy and still be able to participate in society depending on their crime. Also their family should be given financial support as most crime is born in poverty.
No, I’ve never worked in a prison
Prision should be abolished
(before vid) I think prison works to keep dangerous people off the streets but there may be better ways to rehabilitate criminals.
prison could work ok. but the way most places do it. its not very good moral wise ):
No.
Or actually it works to serve its purpose which is slavery and lining the pockets of corporations. If the question is does it work to rehabilitate people, hell no.
Also congratulations on 200 episodes
Also congratulations on 200 episodes
Also congratulations on 200 episodes