@@js70371 I think the main point is that you are adding a point of failure that doesn't add enough value to justify itself. Seatbelts justify themselves by saving a life in more cases than not.
You know, hickock45 reminds me a lot of my late Maternal Grandfather here in Germany. They almost look like Brothers but of course my Grandfather spoke German but he was also that kind of Guy who enjoyed shooting whatever whenever while laughing during shooting! I'm glad he took me to the Shooting Range (having one in your Backyard was and still isn't allowed in Germany sadly). So i really enjoy these Videos as it reminds me of my maternal Grandpa! Prost & Cheers from Berchtesgaden in the Bavarian Alps
I love the key lock because you can instantly know if a used S&W revolver was made well. No key lock means odds are it’s a much better built Smith revolver.
nah MIM hammer is the true indicator. if the hammer has a roll pin holding a firing pin physically onto it then it's a W, if the firing pin is in the frame then it's MIM junk. Everything post MIM is less than optimal which was 1-2 iterations before the Hilary hole depending on model.
I have a 686+ and one time on the range for some reason it looked up after firing about 28 rounds of range ammo , i discovered that the lock mechanism moved and caused the revolver to malfunction. I had to go find the key , lock and unlock it then it worked fine . I still don't know what caused it to happen. It has been working fine every scene. If I was in a gun battle I would not be here to tell about it. I don't like that damn lock.
@@logangodofcandy Personally I think that’s a bad idea. Either leave it alone or remove it completely, including the key part, and plug the hole. Filing off the nub and leaving the key part means you have what LOOKS like a functional trigger lock, but do not. Even in the locked position the gun would still fire. If the gun is ever used and you end up in a court case, that could be used by a prosecutor make you look like an irresponsible gun owner.
I have a model 60 & 66 from my law enforcement time in the 80’s and they’ve served me well and literally life savers. A couple of years ago, I bought a mod 642 thinking it would be better to carry in my back pocket than my 60 with a full hammer. I live on a farm and get dirty. I chose the revolver over a semi auto pistol because of the dirt and elements. After a few months of carrying it in my back pocket, the sweat from working on the farm, started eating the finish and even causing pitting on the frame. S & W told me to mail it to them. I also noted that the cylinder was difficult to open. I sent it in, they claim they made adjustments and mailed it back. I called them and told them there was no difference and they told me to mail it in. Round 2, I called to follow up since they still had it and I haven’t been updated. They told me the gun shoots with no problem. I never complained about it not shooting. They told me the frame was out of warranty and they’d sell me a new frame. New frame cost nearly as much as a new gun. I told them to mail it back. That was my last purchase of a S&W product. As far as the lock goes, I figure that using the lock is a good way to lose a battle. It could cost somebody their life while fumbling around to find the key, insert it and unlocking it.. Their keyed alike just like handcuffs so every criminal has a key. I wouldn’t recommend a S&W wheel gun with a lock to anybody. Since my last S&W, I’ve bought others, but they sure weren’t S&W and wont be for future purchases. Quality and support is out the wind. Sorry! I had to rant. Thanks for the video.
During Covid I used my stimulus check to buy a Ruger Wrangler. After two years it started misfiring. I sent it back to Ruger expecting a repair and they sent back a brand new gun for free. They have integrity.
@bobsch-gd6ze I'm not so sure. I can think of a half a dozen other revolver makers that don't have a Hillary hole. Smith got duped into it, and now they can't admit their mistake. They have moved their HQ to TN to get away from the worst of the anti-2A regulations. I think they could drop it and be celebrated for standing up for freedom.
Don't lose the key! After a few hundred round that lock can mess up and lock itself from the recoil. Carry that key with you even if you never use it because you might just need it.
I have the key for my 686, but I never lock it. It stays loaded and in a safe. I don't have any kids, so no worries there. I do like the extra hole in the cylinder however.. 😎
@@6Sally5 if you ever use it to defend yourself and the brain-dead jury realises that you removed a "safety feature" from your gun, it will be a bad look.
I’ve spoken with a few gunsmiths and they have each had at least a few folks come in with Smiths where the key lock didn’t just engage (which is already bad enough if you depend on that firearm for defense), but BROKE, and rendered it irrecoverably inoperable without a professional gunsmith taking it apart and fixing it They all “fix” the broken key lock by removing it and filling the void. Everything that moves, breaks. Revolvers are known for being mechanically simple and thus are supposed to be more reliable in general. Like you said, it’s more common to happen in models with lots of kick, because the stresses involved are more likely to break the mechanism. But the mechanism is still additional mechanism capable of rendering the firearm useless.
I've been watching you for 8 years, my friend. I am so glad that you're still continuing doing videos.In my opinion, you were the most knowledgeable. Gun guy on youtube.❤❤❤❤❤
For me, it's the notion that the Government wants to protect me, FROM ME. Get the Government out of our private lives and choices. We are Sick and Tired of mandates!!
And yet we see the pistol right there in front of our eyes. Yearly record guns sales despite all the sound and fury of both left and right. Bump stocks are even making a return. Buy what you need and pay no mind to fear mongering. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I just bought a taurus 627 6.5 barrel in 357. Love it! I know it's not a SW, someday. The lock is just behind the trigger so it doesn't look so bad. Never have used it, never will, it sits comfortably under my pillow. I might use it if I had young children in the household, if only I had a carry as back up. A hole in the frame of an SW is quite sad
I had a Taurus that had the key lock . I didn’t care for it. However the lock was on the hammer so a little less noticeable. It was a model 85 38 2 inch barrel
To paraphrase a line in the movie Treasure of the Sierra Madre “WE DON’T NEED NO STINKIN’ KEY LOCKS!” It’s one of the reasons all my revolvers are Ruger.
If I remember correctly, S&W was owned by a British company at the time. Backlash almost put S&W out of business. At least it led to S&W becoming American owned again. As far as the lock, any unnecessary component creates a potential point of failure.
I have a 586-8 with 6-in barrel bought new in 2021, blued with wood stocks. Yeah, it has the key lock, but it doesn't bother me. I've never once locked it. The key is in the little plastic bag and in the case just like the day I brought it home. The gun is a pleasure to shoot and it looks great.
Yes. Ruins it 100% Edit: To clarify. If the gun is unloaded, it is safe. If you want to keep kids from loading and shooting, lock it up AND teach them firearm safety! Loaded and with lock activated is useless. Any firearm with a safety that can’t be quickly disengaged for ease of use is pointless and maybe a bit reckless. At least with a “normal” safety I can visually check the safety. I’ve never had any problems with my key safeties but I still don’t like it. I get the point though, it’s for dummies that don’t understand basic safety rules or how to teach fun safety to children or other adults.
It would be a good training pistol. I can imagine wanting a gun with an internal lock if I ware to teach a whole bunch of kids. Let's them handle a gun in the presence of ammo. And if I don't unlock it, it will not fire. Not really helpful on an edc gun.
@@lightweight1974 The only times that I've heard of the lock "falling" is when it's fired. That makes sense due to the forces involved in firing, but in the lock position it does not have to endure such forces. Altho I agree that I personally would ensure that it works as intended, like I would do with every part of a firearm before using it or handing it of.
Great video! If S&W can leave the lock off the 442/642, why can't they do this with other models?! That lock hole is just too dang ugly; it's a deal breaker for me.
I have had a 4” 686 with rubber grips for over 30 years. It originally came with wooden grips but I changed them out soon after I bought the gun. The wooden grips in the video really make the revolver look beautiful. I think I’m going to change them out again.
I don't like the internal lock, but it's not a deal breaker for me either. I'm fine buying a new Smith if they have something I want. Besides, pre-locks are frequently even more expensive than new Smiths; which are already expensive in today's economy.
Hey hickok, been watching your videos for years. I just got myself my first revolver. I wanted it to be something iconic, and since I am a huge western fan, I got myself the a navy colt, clint eastwood style. I'm from a small country in europe, so this was not easy to get my hands on. Can't wait to test in on the range, together with my rossi lever action, chambered in 357.
I had the smith and western 637 snub nose / 38 and never used the key lock. If you lock it, and lose your key your in big trouble tying to get it unlocked. Thank you and God bless!
Didn't know about them, but people in comments are saying a few companies make plugs that will fill them in and eliminate the lock. If it's a well machined metal plug it would hide it for the most part...
Remember on the Movie "FLIPPER" when the 10 year old boy was going out on the sound in his boat by himself? He ran back to get his .22 rifle so he would be safe. Well 10 year olds are now like 4 year olds as we regress 😔
I bought and installed the plug kit on mine because I was worried about the rumored failure. The plug blends better in the frame, but ultimately still noticeable. I frankly don’t really care though. It’s a lot of fun to shoot, and shoots well. Gets the job done.
I hate the hilary hole. Yes, I still call it that. I avoided any frame that had it. I finally broke down a few years ago and bought myself a brand new S&W model 19. I always wanted one, and now I have it. Since it is a pistol that I hunt with and have in the field with me all the times, I don't care how bad it looks.
I’m not a big fan of Hillary Clinton, but if you listen to the brief description Hickok gives in the video, and if you read more about it’s origins as well, you’ll find out that Smith & Wesson CHOSE to do it. They are solely responsible for the key lock, not her. Nobody made them do it (and it’s why they are the only ones who have it).
I concur and bought a Model 66. It is nice except for the Hillary Hole. So, I also got a Colt King Cobra no Hillary Holes, and it still works. Imagine that? 👍
I’m assuming someone reported my post because it’s gone now, but all I did was state a fact. Like her or hate her, Hillary had nothing to do with the lock. Hickock45 even briefly discusses in this video why Smith & Wesson did it. All I’m saying is blame should be assigned where it’s warranted. The backfire effect is strong here, geez.
I have a S&W 686 no dash,6” barrel, 6 shot. Original cardboard box, cleaning tools still in the sealed. Plastic bag and paper work. My dad bought it when they first came out. He sometimes carried as a police officer. It also has a custom trigger for competition. As a matter of fact on of the guys on his shooting team was Roy Huntington. They were cops together.
I recently purchased a new Smith and Wesson 617. It locked up on round seven of the first cylinder of 10 rounds. It had to be dissembled to unload it. Was sent back to the factory for service. They did not indicated why it had a catastrophic failure. They did indicate that they replaced the firing pin and cut the forcing cone. Both are known issues with some of those revolvers however, none of that was the problem. I won’t go into the issues with return shipping. I have older Smith and Wesson revolvers that are well built. After seeing the internal components and workmanship of the new revolvers I will never buy anything new from them. Selling the 617 and now searching for a nice old model 41.
When I turned 21, S&W revolvers were the best on the market for the money. Colt wasn’t in the business anymore. Ruger seemed a step down to me, Taurus 3 steps down. I’ve owned a 29, 2 686, 627, 66, 360PD and a 460. They all work flawlessly, they all look great. No issues with any lock ever. I didn’t need to track down an older one that doubles the value for no performance increase.
My dad died in 2018. He was 78. He was a man's man. I remember I was 10 and for NEW YEARS he took his 357 s&w and fired it out back. 3in barrell. It sounded like a military cannon!! Thx for making me think about my dad and just one of the many memorable times we shared
I'm very sorry for your loss, I also had an old-school father and lost him 20 yrs. ago. I read a study, that said men have lost the level of testosterone, that our fathers had! Our society is making some men into silly little guys. You and I know what a real man is, so we have an advantage over others, stay strong and continue to lead your family, as men should, and keep your levels up near our fathers! God bless you, friend!!
It reminds me of those 5 mile an hour impact bumpers that went on every car in the early 70s. It just made a Cadillac look completely stupid but they were trying to be safe.
Morning everyone, for me personally, after shooting many rounds through my 686 +, feeling and experiencing how sweet the trigger is, in double or single action, the hole in my frame, kinda disappeared. I have a few older SMITHS that have wonderful triggers and was very pleased that the new SMITHS are very comparable. What are ya gonna do? Later guys!!
A 686 was the first gun I bought, about 14 years ago. It's my carry gun in the woods and I've shot thousands of rounds through it. The lock never was an issue. Carried a Model 60 as a carry gun for 12 years, never a problem. I guess the potential is there.
Similar 'lock' on the Springfield Armory 1911's. Never used it. There was a tiny hole in the mainspring housing. It was easily bypassed with an aftermarket mainspring housing if you truly wanted to. But, the S&W gaping hole in the frame is undeniable. Probably less noticeable on a blued frame, if they even make those(?).
My S&W has the lock……I’ve never used the feature. The gun has always functioned as it should. If it ever comes to bother me I’ll probably have a smith remove it and insert the plug which is available. I really enjoy your videos Hickok……..keep them coming!
I appreciate you explaining why you dislike it. I have heard you reference it many times. I LOVE my Smith's...and could not care less about the key lock. Gorgeous guns.
I've stayed away from built in keylocks after I had a Taurus semi-auto that had a key lock. The big problem was it's not an actual "key" you can have on your keyring, it was a separate hex-head tool which was hard to keep handy.
BTW, a fantastic in depth history of that abomination can be found on the RevolverGuy blog, in an article entitled "The History and Future of the Smith & Wesson Internal Lock". He gives the history on it in a pretty fair and non-ranting, hair-pulling, red-eyed way. Worth a read.
momma always said. The less things you have on something. The less things that can go wrong. Tried out a 2" S&W Bodyguard. Nice and concealable but doesn't fit my hand to get a steady aim. Looked at the 686 and model 10s. 4"barrel fits in my front jeans pocket just right. Heavier made solid Revolver. Cause who wants to throw casings on the ground.
I have a couple of guns with the "Hillary Lock" I've heard of people not being able to unlock the gun once you lock it. I've never used it...never will...I have never taken the key out of the box. Love my 686 plus. Beautiful gun and a great shooter. I have the 3" barrel.
I don’t like it, but I wouldn’t say it ruins it. I’d rather have the stupid key lock than all the tasteless graphics and weird colors that some manufacturers have on their firearms (I’m looking at you, Taurus!). Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
I love the 5” 686. My first 686 was the 5” 7 shot Talo version. After I bought the gun, I discovered the history behind that hole. I sold it and bought a -5 variant 5” that didn’t have the Hillary Hole. Haven’t bought a Smith since then with the Hillary Hole.
I just bought a mint condition nickel mod 19, 4 inch pin barrel but it was pricey because it was unfired. If I buy a S&W revolver I only buy older ones with the exception of the S&W 500 mag I own because they never made older 500 mags.
One of the things that attracted me to my Kimber K6SX, was no key lock. Key locks are cumbersome and turn a valuable weapon to a poor version of a hammer. Would be concerned it’s one more thing that can go wrong.
I'm 39. A few years back I was in the market to buy a revolver, my first one. I wanted a S&W 686 with a 4 in. barrel. Up until then I had no idea they had a locking mechanism. I was looking on Smith's website to purchase a brand new one, but after seeing that ugly-ass hole on the frame, I was instantly turned off by it. Then I learned they started using those crappy MIM triggers and hammers instead of forged ones. That's all I needed to know to realize I wanted a traditional gun that was built well. I ended up searching on gunbroker and found a 686-3 for $650. I bought it and absolutely love it!
Hey Hickok, one more thing. Since buying a 610, and a 41c I think it was, both were new and both guns had problems with the cylinder jamming when they got warm I'm done with ever buying a new Smith. I love my old ones but I'm absolutely finished with their new ones.
I've owned a lot of J,K,L, and N frames and I have gone out of my way time and again to find older models without the lock. I'm only 30, but all my revolvers are way older than me and a whole lot more reliable than the newer ones myself or my coworkers/friends/customers have had.
I was unable to go through all the other comments, so maybe it’s already been mentioned; but Springfield Armory has now put a internal gun lock on some of there 1911’s. They have it located on the grips backstrap.
@@georgealdredge2806 Because they didn't sign the deal with the government that Smith and Wesson did. Smith and Wesson signed a deal, and part of that deal mandated that new revolvers from them all come with internal locks. Said deal has LONG SINCE expired, but S&W still abides it because "Muh liability."
I'm old enough to remember the "sacrilege" of them putting a safety on the Winchester 94. Then a month or so later, the guy that owned the new one tripped over a fence and thankfully only blew his BOOT off. I never gave anyone grief over one again.
Well I have the 686 Talo Edition 3" , got the hole but not a big deal. Shoots great , never any problem and hade a 2.5" , 4" and 6" all with the hole and never any issues and I shoot 357 mag a lot . I'm a 357 lover !
I consider myself as someone who is fairly new to gun ownership, having bought my very first firearm just 6 years ago. When I purchased the S&W model 60 nearly 5 years ago, I didn't mind having a key lock or "Hillary" hole just above the cylinder release button. I used it a few times but then it got me to thinking that it defeats the purpose of that firearm, which is to defend yourself and/or your loved ones with it at a moment's notice. So, I stopped using it.
Have purchased dozens of Smiths over the years. Probably about 20 of those had the key lock. Had two of the locks that failed. One was on a 41 magnum classic that didn’t work properly from the factory. The other was on a 340pd which developed it over the first 6 months and ended up locking after every trigger pull (whether live rounds or not). Both went back to the factory and returned fixed. I wasnt worried about the 41 mag it was a range toy. But the 340 was a carry piece and I could never trust it again.
I get all the arguments. I have had my Smith since 2008 and don’t even notice it. I carry it often when I have my swooshy shorts on in Florida. Love my J Frame. Don’t care about the lock but I understand the people who hate it.
I recently bought a new 686 plus. I don't really see a benefit to the key lock but it wasn't a deal breaker for me. As long as the gun works I don't mind it.
Yeah. I see myself hearing noise downstairs, whispering, drawers opening. I fumble around in the night table for the key to the gun safe and the ammo safe and the gun lock. Trying to tip toe to each of the because you can’t keep the contents in one place. ……
I have 2 S&Ws with the key lock (a 460 VR 5" and a Pro Series 686-6) and don't really give it a second thought. I had not heard of unintentional activation yet but will have to look into that now. I still love them both and don't think there is that much impact to the looks.
I had an 686 I got in the mid 80’s. Twisted the barrel on it in the 90’s. Should have sent it back to Smith but did not know this was an issue until UA-cam. Today my only revolver is the Colts 3”KC. I had a problem with it new and it went back to Colt and it is a great shooter, great looks with a pretty good trigger out of the box. I did have to send it back a 2nd time because I went with an XS front night sight. I could not swap out the sight on my own and brought it to a gunsmith who was planning on taking a torch to it because his Allen key was deflecting an inch an a half. I called Colt and sent it back in and they changed the sight. I hope in 10 years when it’s time to change again it will not be so hard.
I bought a stainless S&W, a little J frame, 357 from my friend. It has the key lock, but I have never used the lock. I forget all about it when I shoot warm 357 ammo. I would prefer not to have the lock, but I'm happy I have the revolver.
I don't care for the lock but have a couple of guns with them including a 3 inch 686 that I really like. I saw your video on the 3inch a few years back and was hooked. I really dislike the safety on Marlin and Winchester lever guns more.
Got one and have never used the lock, if I had my choice, I would not have the lock. Bought the gun new years ago when I was less knowledgeable, don’t regret it, I love the 686+, but would definitely look for one without if I had to replace it.
Never heard anyone say they love the key hole aka hillary hole. Last new Smith&Wesson I bought was a 642 no lock they still make without the darn lock.
Many moons ago I bought a M629 with the lock and didn’t pay much attention to it for the longest time. However, fast forward a few years to a particular day of cleaning after a day of fun. I had it laying next to my M19 and the difference popped out at me immediately. Now I can’t stand it. Not only is the hole itself ugly, the ‘dovetail’ thumb release is just horrid compared to the original. So yes, I would also pay more for the keyless. Great video and topic!!
Before I really got into revolvers I bought my wife a 686+. She loves it and it got her into shooting. We also have a 686 Pro Series and newer 617 she loves. BUT, I hate the hole and the vast majority of mine are vintage pre locks. I will likely not buy another new S&W revolver unless they eliminate the hole.
Key locks: A useless feature on revolvers that is one more component that can cause problems.
You said “can” cause problems - not that it DOES cause problems. Seatbelts in vehicles “can” cause injuries…
@@js70371 I think the main point is that you are adding a point of failure that doesn't add enough value to justify itself. Seatbelts justify themselves by saving a life in more cases than not.
@@Brostab.x I was just referencing that the gun lock is similar in thinking and methodology to a seat belt 👍
@@js70371 That's fair, I wont get any more pedantic than that lol
I had forgotten that my Smith has this lock until this video reminded me.
i guarantee the lock has never prevented a crime.
I think it has more to do with preventing kids from messing with it
@@blakedavis2447 if that was a valid idea why don't they put them on their semi-automatics?
@@departed402because they have a slide genius
@@departed402 I hope you don't have firearms lol
@@B8BBB8B88BB8 What does that have to do with it? I have a SA semi with the lock.
You know, hickock45 reminds me a lot of my late Maternal Grandfather here in Germany. They almost look like Brothers but of course my Grandfather spoke German but he was also that kind of Guy who enjoyed shooting whatever whenever while laughing during shooting! I'm glad he took me to the Shooting Range (having one in your Backyard was and still isn't allowed in Germany sadly).
So i really enjoy these Videos as it reminds me of my maternal Grandpa!
Prost & Cheers from Berchtesgaden in the Bavarian Alps
Is that where Hitler had a retreat and where the Tea house was located at, in Berchtesgaden?
@@chartreux1532 .I.live Germany....I was stationed in Franken 50 plus years ago ..thete used to be a store called Waffen Franconia in Wurzburg...
@williamwatson4625 ..in the general area...visited it in 1972..stayed at the Army's General Walker Hotel, which had been Hitler's retreat house...
Germany is a communist country!
Hopefully germans can save themselves
God bless this informative, intelligent,entertaining, no drama channel. Thank you Hickok for all the great videos
I love the key lock because you can instantly know if a used S&W revolver was made well. No key lock means odds are it’s a much better built Smith revolver.
I agree. The quality control issues didn't occur until after the key lock period. I'll pay more for a used one without the lock.
@@scottperson9487 this man speaks truth!
Would definitely prefer an older firearm.
nah MIM hammer is the true indicator. if the hammer has a roll pin holding a firing pin physically onto it then it's a W, if the firing pin is in the frame then it's MIM junk. Everything post MIM is less than optimal which was 1-2 iterations before the Hilary hole depending on model.
Agreed
I have a 686+ and one time on the range for some reason it looked up after firing about 28 rounds of range ammo , i discovered that the lock mechanism moved and caused the revolver to malfunction. I had to go find the key , lock and unlock it then it worked fine . I still don't know what caused it to happen. It has been working fine every scene. If I was in a gun battle I would not be here to tell about it. I don't like that damn lock.
TK Custom and Original Precision both offer matching metal plugs to fill that hole and eliminate the lock. A Lock Delete!!!
@@jeffreylocke8808That's the route I planned on going when I get into wheelguns.
The lock functions via a tiny nub. It is easily filed off.
Speech to text is a hell of a drug
@@logangodofcandy Personally I think that’s a bad idea. Either leave it alone or remove it completely, including the key part, and plug the hole. Filing off the nub and leaving the key part means you have what LOOKS like a functional trigger lock, but do not. Even in the locked position the gun would still fire. If the gun is ever used and you end up in a court case, that could be used by a prosecutor make you look like an irresponsible gun owner.
Hate the key lock. Thanks Hickok
This video is 3 days old. How is your comment 9 days old?
I have a model 60 & 66 from my law enforcement time in the 80’s and they’ve served me well and literally life savers. A couple of years ago, I bought a mod 642 thinking it would be better to carry in my back pocket than my 60 with a full hammer. I live on a farm and get dirty. I chose the revolver over a semi auto pistol because of the dirt and elements. After a few months of carrying it in my back pocket, the sweat from working on the farm, started eating the finish and even causing pitting on the frame. S & W told me to mail it to them. I also noted that the cylinder was difficult to open.
I sent it in, they claim they made adjustments and mailed it back. I called them and told them there was no difference and they told me to mail it in. Round 2, I called to follow up since they still had it and I haven’t been updated. They told me the gun shoots with no problem. I never complained about it not shooting. They told me the frame was out of warranty and they’d sell me a new frame. New frame cost nearly as much as a new gun. I told them to mail it back. That was my last purchase of a S&W product.
As far as the lock goes, I figure that using the lock is a good way to lose a battle. It could cost somebody their life while fumbling around to find the key, insert it and unlocking it.. Their keyed alike just like handcuffs so every criminal has a key. I wouldn’t recommend a S&W wheel gun with a lock to anybody.
Since my last S&W, I’ve bought others, but they sure weren’t S&W and wont be for future purchases. Quality and support is out the wind.
Sorry! I had to rant.
Thanks for the video.
My model 60 (circa 1965-66) looks and handles like it's still brand new 😏
During Covid I used my stimulus check to buy a Ruger Wrangler. After two years it started misfiring. I sent it back to Ruger expecting a repair and they sent back a brand new gun for free. They have integrity.
@@WilliamSpoehr gotta wonder how many firearms and how much ammo was bought with government cheese... 🤔
Typical S&W customer service.
The safety police will never be pleased, it does ruin the look of it.
You would think that Smith & Wesson would dump that universally disliked "feature" and save money and regain some customers in the process.
one word "lawyer".....
@bobsch-gd6ze I'm not so sure. I can think of a half a dozen other revolver makers that don't have a Hillary hole. Smith got duped into it, and now they can't admit their mistake. They have moved their HQ to TN to get away from the worst of the anti-2A regulations. I think they could drop it and be celebrated for standing up for freedom.
I pay absolutely no attention to the key locks on mine. I have no idea where the keys are.
Don't lose the key! After a few hundred round that lock can mess up and lock itself from the recoil. Carry that key with you even if you never use it because you might just need it.
It should be in the original manufacturer retail box. But normally it's okay to leave it there.
@@plotholedetective4166I wonder if the safety mechanism can just be removed from the firearm?
I have the key for my 686, but I never lock it. It stays loaded and in a safe. I don't have any kids, so no worries there. I do like the extra hole in the cylinder however.. 😎
@@6Sally5 if you ever use it to defend yourself and the brain-dead jury realises that you removed a "safety feature" from your gun, it will be a bad look.
You sir are the Bob Ross of Guns. More power to you!
Bob couldn't wear a ball cap though
I’ve spoken with a few gunsmiths and they have each had at least a few folks come in with Smiths where the key lock didn’t just engage (which is already bad enough if you depend on that firearm for defense), but BROKE, and rendered it irrecoverably inoperable without a professional gunsmith taking it apart and fixing it
They all “fix” the broken key lock by removing it and filling the void.
Everything that moves, breaks.
Revolvers are known for being mechanically simple and thus are supposed to be more reliable in general.
Like you said, it’s more common to happen in models with lots of kick, because the stresses involved are more likely to break the mechanism.
But the mechanism is still additional mechanism capable of rendering the firearm useless.
It was da Vinci I believe that said
"the most ingenious things are those that are the most simple."
I've been watching you for 8 years, my friend. I am so glad that you're still continuing doing videos.In my opinion, you were the most knowledgeable.
Gun guy on youtube.❤❤❤❤❤
For me, it's the notion that the Government wants to protect me, FROM ME. Get the Government out of our private lives and choices. We are Sick and Tired of mandates!!
And yet we see the pistol right there in front of our eyes. Yearly record guns sales despite all the sound and fury of both left and right. Bump stocks are even making a return. Buy what you need and pay no mind to fear mongering. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@michaelkannon8243 Well said.
I recommend you not wear your seatbelt from now on. Damn the mandates, full speed ahead.
@@zen-TiiTotally agree👍and I can’t wait until you start preaching the same thing to motorcyclists😂
Guns can be used to hurt other people too. And by other people.
I just bought a taurus 627 6.5 barrel in 357. Love it! I know it's not a SW, someday.
The lock is just behind the trigger so it doesn't look so bad. Never have used it, never will, it sits comfortably under my pillow. I might use it if I had young children in the household, if only I had a carry as back up. A hole in the frame of an SW is quite sad
I had a Taurus that had the key lock . I didn’t care for it. However the lock was on the hammer so a little less noticeable. It was a model 85 38 2 inch barrel
To paraphrase a line in the movie Treasure of the Sierra Madre “WE DON’T NEED NO STINKIN’ KEY LOCKS!” It’s one of the reasons all my revolvers are Ruger.
Oh, and by the way, I really enjoyed your step back in time video! It was great to see your first uncut raw video!
If I remember correctly, S&W was owned by a British company at the time. Backlash almost put S&W out of business. At least it led to S&W becoming American owned again. As far as the lock, any unnecessary component creates a potential point of failure.
I once entered a courtroom with the keys for that lock on my keychain. They accused me of having handcuff keys and got really excited. Lol.
I have a 586-8 with 6-in barrel bought new in 2021, blued with wood stocks. Yeah, it has the key lock, but it doesn't bother me. I've never once locked it. The key is in the little plastic bag and in the case just like the day I brought it home. The gun is a pleasure to shoot and it looks great.
With a little effort you could have found a real 586. Pythons envy nickel 586s with factory combats
@@doublesharp5795 I prefer the design of the later hammer and firing pin. I think the hammer mounted firing pin is a weaker design.
Yes. Ruins it 100%
Edit: To clarify. If the gun is unloaded, it is safe. If you want to keep kids from loading and shooting, lock it up AND teach them firearm safety! Loaded and with lock activated is useless. Any firearm with a safety that can’t be quickly disengaged for ease of use is pointless and maybe a bit reckless. At least with a “normal” safety I can visually check the safety. I’ve never had any problems with my key safeties but I still don’t like it. I get the point though, it’s for dummies that don’t understand basic safety rules or how to teach fun safety to children or other adults.
It would be a good training pistol. I can imagine wanting a gun with an internal lock if I ware to teach a whole bunch of kids.
Let's them handle a gun in the presence of ammo.
And if I don't unlock it, it will not fire.
Not really helpful on an edc gun.
@jebkermen6087 You want to bet your life on that? I think a failure of that keylock can happen both ways. My 2 cents.
@@lightweight1974
The only times that I've heard of the lock "falling" is when it's fired.
That makes sense due to the forces involved in firing, but in the lock position it does not have to endure such forces.
Altho I agree that I personally would ensure that it works as intended, like I would do with every part of a firearm before using it or handing it of.
Great video! If S&W can leave the lock off the 442/642, why can't they do this with other models?! That lock hole is just too dang ugly; it's a deal breaker for me.
You mean the hillary hole.
I have had a 4” 686 with rubber grips for over 30 years. It originally came with wooden grips but I changed them out soon after I bought the gun. The wooden grips in the video really make the revolver look beautiful. I think I’m going to change them out again.
I don't like the internal lock, but it's not a deal breaker for me either. I'm fine buying a new Smith if they have something I want. Besides, pre-locks are frequently even more expensive than new Smiths; which are already expensive in today's economy.
Revolvers are great!!!
It's not a deal killer for me. Of course, I'd rather not have it if I have a choice. By the way, LOVE those wood grips on that 4"!
Hey hickok, been watching your videos for years. I just got myself my first revolver. I wanted it to be something iconic, and since I am a huge western fan, I got myself the a navy colt, clint eastwood style. I'm from a small country in europe, so this was not easy to get my hands on. Can't wait to test in on the range, together with my rossi lever action, chambered in 357.
That's where the soul runs out
Oh… that’s a good way to put it!
I had the smith and western 637 snub nose / 38 and never used the key lock. If you lock it, and lose your key your in big trouble tying to get it unlocked. Thank you and God bless!
I just saw my math teacher lock himself in his office with a piece of graph paper.
I think he must be plotting something.
Didn't know about them, but people in comments are saying a few companies make plugs that will fill them in and eliminate the lock. If it's a well machined metal plug it would hide it for the most part...
Remember on the Movie "FLIPPER" when the 10 year old boy was going out on the sound in his boat by himself? He ran back to get his .22 rifle so he would be safe. Well 10 year olds are now like 4 year olds as we regress 😔
I got a Marlin 60 .22 rifle for my 9th birthday, that I was solely responsible for. Times have certainly changed.
I bought and installed the plug kit on mine because I was worried about the rumored failure. The plug blends better in the frame, but ultimately still noticeable. I frankly don’t really care though. It’s a lot of fun to shoot, and shoots well. Gets the job done.
I hate the hilary hole. Yes, I still call it that. I avoided any frame that had it. I finally broke down a few years ago and bought myself a brand new S&W model 19. I always wanted one, and now I have it. Since it is a pistol that I hunt with and have in the field with me all the times, I don't care how bad it looks.
Good name! It's exactly what O'Bummer did to the gas can. 😡
I’m not a big fan of Hillary Clinton, but if you listen to the brief description Hickok gives in the video, and if you read more about it’s origins as well, you’ll find out that Smith & Wesson CHOSE to do it. They are solely responsible for the key lock, not her. Nobody made them do it (and it’s why they are the only ones who have it).
I concur and bought a Model 66. It is nice except for the Hillary Hole. So, I also got a Colt King Cobra no Hillary Holes, and it still works. Imagine that? 👍
I’m assuming someone reported my post because it’s gone now, but all I did was state a fact. Like her or hate her, Hillary had nothing to do with the lock. Hickock45 even briefly discusses in this video why Smith & Wesson did it. All I’m saying is blame should be assigned where it’s warranted. The backfire effect is strong here, geez.
@@YourHandleHere84 People are serious about their ability to use childish names for things in cases where it likely doesn't even apply.
I have a S&W 686 no dash,6” barrel, 6 shot. Original cardboard box, cleaning tools still in the sealed. Plastic bag and paper work. My dad bought it when they first came out. He sometimes carried as a police officer. It also has a custom trigger for competition. As a matter of fact on of the guys on his shooting team was Roy Huntington. They were cops together.
Good to see that you're still sharp as a fresh razor
If it ain't bust why fix it!! Great vlog from across the pond.
I recently purchased a new Smith and Wesson 617. It locked up on round seven of the first cylinder of 10 rounds. It had to be dissembled to unload it. Was sent back to the factory for service. They did not indicated why it had a catastrophic failure. They did indicate that they replaced the firing pin and cut the forcing cone. Both are known issues with some of those revolvers however, none of that was the problem. I won’t go into the issues with return shipping. I have older Smith and Wesson revolvers that are well built. After seeing the internal components and workmanship of the new revolvers I will never buy anything new from them. Selling the 617 and now searching for a nice old model 41.
I've bought a 617, 648 and 686 this year. Zero issues. My 629 & 60 are prelock, but I can't tell any difference other than esthetics.
When I turned 21, S&W revolvers were the best on the market for the money. Colt wasn’t in the business anymore. Ruger seemed a step down to me, Taurus 3 steps down.
I’ve owned a 29, 2 686, 627, 66, 360PD and a 460. They all work flawlessly, they all look great. No issues with any lock ever. I didn’t need to track down an older one that doubles the value for no performance increase.
My dad died in 2018. He was 78. He was a man's man. I remember I was 10 and for NEW YEARS he took his 357 s&w and fired it out back. 3in barrell. It sounded like a military cannon!! Thx for making me think about my dad and just one of the many memorable times we shared
I'm very sorry for your loss, I also had an old-school father and lost him 20 yrs. ago. I read a study, that said men have lost the level of testosterone, that our fathers had! Our society is making some men into silly little guys. You and I know what a real man is, so we have an advantage over others, stay strong and continue to lead your family, as men should, and keep your levels up near our fathers! God bless you, friend!!
It reminds me of those 5 mile an hour impact bumpers that went on every car in the early 70s. It just made a Cadillac look completely stupid but they were trying to be safe.
Morning everyone, for me personally, after shooting many rounds through my 686 +, feeling and experiencing how sweet the trigger is, in double or single action, the hole in my frame, kinda disappeared. I have a few older SMITHS that have wonderful triggers and was very pleased that the new SMITHS are very comparable. What are ya gonna do? Later guys!!
A 686 was the first gun I bought, about 14 years ago. It's my carry gun in the woods and I've shot thousands of rounds through it. The lock never was an issue. Carried a Model 60 as a carry gun for 12 years, never a problem. I guess the potential is there.
That's why it's important to be a gunsmith. To get rid of that nonsense.
Similar 'lock' on the Springfield Armory 1911's. Never used it. There was a tiny hole in the mainspring housing. It was easily bypassed with an aftermarket mainspring housing if you truly wanted to. But, the S&W gaping hole in the frame is undeniable. Probably less noticeable on a blued frame, if they even make those(?).
Mine has a lock on it, never used it, forgot it was even there.
My S&W has the lock……I’ve never used the feature. The gun has always functioned as it should. If it ever comes to bother me I’ll probably have a smith remove it and insert the plug which is available. I really enjoy your videos Hickok……..keep them coming!
For a responsible gun owner, all that lock really does is prove that S&W has caved.
I appreciate you explaining why you dislike it. I have heard you reference it many times. I LOVE my Smith's...and could not care less about the key lock. Gorgeous guns.
Added complexity means more chances for failure.
I've stayed away from built in keylocks after I had a Taurus semi-auto that had a key lock. The big problem was it's not an actual "key" you can have on your keyring, it was a separate hex-head tool which was hard to keep handy.
I only buy pre-lock S&W. I love S&W, especially my 3- and 2- inch 686's. I have never owned and will never own one with a Hillary hole.
The key is probably a better fit for Lewinsky.
BTW, a fantastic in depth history of that abomination can be found on the RevolverGuy blog, in an article entitled "The History and Future of the Smith & Wesson Internal Lock". He gives the history on it in a pretty fair and non-ranting, hair-pulling, red-eyed way. Worth a read.
A bad day with a key lock smith is better than a good day without one😂
momma always said. The less things you have on something. The less things that can go wrong.
Tried out a 2" S&W Bodyguard. Nice and concealable but doesn't fit my hand to get a steady aim.
Looked at the 686 and model 10s. 4"barrel fits in my front jeans pocket just right. Heavier made solid Revolver. Cause who wants to throw casings on the ground.
I made sure to purchase my 642 WITHOUT the lock, its the only model they make without one
I have a couple of guns with the "Hillary Lock" I've heard of people not being able to unlock the gun once you lock it. I've never used it...never will...I have never taken the key out of the box. Love my 686 plus. Beautiful gun and a great shooter. I have the 3" barrel.
I have a 4" and it is the most accurate handgun I own...by far.
I don’t like it, but I wouldn’t say it ruins it. I’d rather have the stupid key lock than all the tasteless graphics and weird colors that some manufacturers have on their firearms (I’m looking at you, Taurus!). Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Another good video, thanks for the info. I have one on my Taurus and never use it.
I love revolvers and have many, i will never buy a smith because of the key lock. An extra point of failure is all it is.
I love the 5” 686. My first 686 was the 5” 7 shot Talo version. After I bought the gun, I discovered the history behind that hole. I sold it and bought a -5 variant 5” that didn’t have the Hillary Hole. Haven’t bought a Smith since then with the Hillary Hole.
I haven't bought a Smith and Wesson since they started putting those stupid key locks on them.
I just bought a mint condition nickel mod 19, 4 inch pin barrel but it was pricey because it was unfired. If I buy a S&W revolver I only buy older ones with the exception of the S&W 500 mag I own because they never made older 500 mags.
Adorable revolver
Have a 67-1 made in 1977. Butter smooth trigger. Love 😍 it
This is why The Plug was invented. I only own one S&W that had the lock, it has been plugged now.
Dude! Thanks for that! Ordering...
I was going to say, I can't believe no one makes a plug to cover up that hole yet...
Filing the lock takes 20 minutes from loosening the first screw to tightening the last screw. It's also free.
Works great. I put it in a model 69 in .44 mag. Barely noticeable.
@@chrisarmour3379 where did you get the plug?
One of the things that attracted me to my Kimber K6SX, was no key lock. Key locks are cumbersome and turn a valuable weapon to a poor version of a hammer. Would be concerned it’s one more thing that can go wrong.
As the owner of a 686+, Doesn’t bother me. But I was born in 90 so what do I know. 😭😭
Never even realized it till now ; Thanks once again for the info
Life is good!
I'm 39. A few years back I was in the market to buy a revolver, my first one. I wanted a S&W 686 with a 4 in. barrel. Up until then I had no idea they had a locking mechanism. I was looking on Smith's website to purchase a brand new one, but after seeing that ugly-ass hole on the frame, I was instantly turned off by it. Then I learned they started using those crappy MIM triggers and hammers instead of forged ones. That's all I needed to know to realize I wanted a traditional gun that was built well. I ended up searching on gunbroker and found a 686-3 for $650. I bought it and absolutely love it!
Never have or never will own a key lock firearm.
Hey Hickok, one more thing. Since buying a 610, and a 41c I think it was, both were new and both guns had problems with the cylinder jamming when they got warm I'm done with ever buying a new Smith. I love my old ones but I'm absolutely finished with their new ones.
Imagine if the real Colts changed to 5 clicks on pulling the hammer back. Just wouldn't be the same
I've owned a lot of J,K,L, and N frames and I have gone out of my way time and again to find older models without the lock. I'm only 30, but all my revolvers are way older than me and a whole lot more reliable than the newer ones myself or my coworkers/friends/customers have had.
Looks like it ran
I was unable to go through all the other comments, so maybe it’s already been mentioned; but Springfield Armory has now put a internal gun lock on some of there 1911’s. They have it located on the grips backstrap.
Hilliary destroys everything..even Smifs...with that mandated Hilliary hole...
If it was mandated, please explain why it does not apply to Colt, Ruger, Henry, NAA, etc?
@@georgealdredge2806 Because they didn't sign the deal with the government that Smith and Wesson did. Smith and Wesson signed a deal, and part of that deal mandated that new revolvers from them all come with internal locks.
Said deal has LONG SINCE expired, but S&W still abides it because "Muh liability."
I think it's a trade-off-safety features are important, but it’s crucial that they don’t compromise the integrity of the firearm.
I will not buy new s&w guns because of key SAY NO TO HILLARY HOLE
I'm old enough to remember the "sacrilege" of them putting a safety on the Winchester 94. Then a month or so later, the guy that owned the new one tripped over a fence and thankfully only blew his BOOT off. I never gave anyone grief over one again.
That isn't a safety. It's a lock built into the gun. Almost nobody uses any locks at all
I'd say what ruins it is the lack of a wooden grip.
you mean wooden grips?
@@briansmithmier2499 yeah, that. Thanks.
Well I have the 686 Talo Edition 3" , got the hole but not a big deal. Shoots great , never any problem and hade a 2.5" , 4" and 6" all with the hole and never any issues and I shoot 357 mag a lot . I'm a 357 lover !
I consider myself as someone who is fairly new to gun ownership, having bought my very first firearm just 6 years ago. When I purchased the S&W model 60 nearly 5 years ago, I didn't mind having a key lock or "Hillary" hole just above the cylinder release button. I used it a few times but then it got me to thinking that it defeats the purpose of that firearm, which is to defend yourself and/or your loved ones with it at a moment's notice. So, I stopped using it.
Have purchased dozens of Smiths over the years. Probably about 20 of those had the key lock. Had two of the locks that failed. One was on a 41 magnum classic that didn’t work properly from the factory. The other was on a 340pd which developed it over the first 6 months and ended up locking after every trigger pull (whether live rounds or not). Both went back to the factory and returned fixed. I wasnt worried about the 41 mag it was a range toy. But the 340 was a carry piece and I could never trust it again.
I get all the arguments. I have had my Smith since 2008 and don’t even notice it. I carry it often when I have my swooshy shorts on in Florida. Love my J Frame. Don’t care about the lock but I understand the people who hate it.
I recently bought a new 686 plus. I don't really see a benefit to the key lock but it wasn't a deal breaker for me. As long as the gun works I don't mind it.
Yeah. I see myself hearing noise downstairs, whispering, drawers opening. I fumble around in the night table for the key to the gun safe and the ammo safe and the gun lock. Trying to tip toe to each of the because you can’t keep the contents in one place. ……
I have 2 S&Ws with the key lock (a 460 VR 5" and a Pro Series 686-6) and don't really give it a second thought. I had not heard of unintentional activation yet but will have to look into that now. I still love them both and don't think there is that much impact to the looks.
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I had an 686 I got in the mid 80’s. Twisted the barrel on it in the 90’s. Should have sent it back to Smith but did not know this was an issue until UA-cam. Today my only revolver is the Colts 3”KC. I had a problem with it new and it went back to Colt and it is a great shooter, great looks with a pretty good trigger out of the box. I did have to send it back a 2nd time because I went with an XS front night sight. I could not swap out the sight on my own and brought it to a gunsmith who was planning on taking a torch to it because his Allen key was deflecting an inch an a half. I called Colt and sent it back in and they changed the sight. I hope in 10 years when it’s time to change again it will not be so hard.
I got myself a 686 this last Christmas and actually didn't even notice that hole for awhile until someone pointed it out.
You don't inspect your guns when you buy my them ? I check the whole gun out and I forsure would notice that key lock
I bought a stainless S&W, a little J frame, 357 from my friend. It has the key lock, but I have never used the lock. I forget all about it when I shoot warm 357 ammo. I would prefer not to have the lock, but I'm happy I have the revolver.
I don't care for the lock but have a couple of guns with them including a 3 inch 686 that I really like. I saw your video on the 3inch a few years back and was hooked. I really dislike the safety on Marlin and Winchester lever guns more.
Got one and have never used the lock, if I had my choice, I would not have the lock. Bought the gun new years ago when I was less knowledgeable, don’t regret it, I love the 686+, but would definitely look for one without if I had to replace it.
Never heard anyone say they love the key hole aka hillary hole. Last new Smith&Wesson I bought was a 642 no lock they still make without the darn lock.
Between the reasons you mentioned and all the overclocked barrels I've seen, they made it really easy for me to go with a new python.
Many moons ago I bought a M629 with the lock and didn’t pay much attention to it for the longest time. However, fast forward a few years to a particular day of cleaning after a day of fun. I had it laying next to my M19 and the difference popped out at me immediately. Now I can’t stand it. Not only is the hole itself ugly, the ‘dovetail’ thumb release is just horrid compared to the original. So yes, I would also pay more for the keyless. Great video and topic!!
Before I really got into revolvers I bought my wife a 686+. She loves it and it got her into shooting. We also have a 686 Pro Series and newer 617 she loves. BUT, I hate the hole and the vast majority of mine are vintage pre locks. I will likely not buy another new S&W revolver unless they eliminate the hole.