I dont mean to be so offtopic but does anyone know a method to get back into an instagram account?? I stupidly forgot the account password. I would love any assistance you can offer me!
@Jimmy Trenton I really appreciate your reply. I got to the site through google and im trying it out atm. Looks like it's gonna take quite some time so I will reply here later with my results.
The comments show that many, even with visual examples of why a lift doesn't actually help them fit tires, still don't understand what the word "fit" implies. If you can't cycle the suspension without the tire hitting during any turn or angle, sway bar or not, the tire doesn't "fit". That's the plain english for those who keep arguing
Super helpful video. SO MANY people with 4x4s should watch this. I feel like too many people do not understand that a lift does NOT help clear larger tires.
Good video for beginners and those with lack of patience, but anybody willing to lift IFS should get through technicals of Tinkers Adventures videos, so they understand the suspension on IFS platform
I agree to some extent. I have always understood this and it's definitely worth calculating in when you want bigger tyres and more suspension travel. However, my 80 series clears 35" tyres through my entire travel range with some clearing in the wheel well which is necessary for the tracks I do. I have a friend that never does these tracks and basically just does basic tracks with some fairly small straightforward hill climbs and mainly a bunch of mud holes. He doesn't need the extra travel and just needed to fit the biggest tyres he could to clear the diffs in the mud holes and water crossings. He added extended bump stops to avoid hitting with the last inch of upward travel. Makes no sense to cut into the wheel well when you are basically never going to need the extra travel but your main concern is clearing the diff in massive tyre ruts. He could have also got the same result by just doing a 1 or 2 inch body lift. A vehicle is always engineered with compromise. You get one thing and you have to take another thing away. Just depends on your uses and only you know what limits your vehicle is reaching when you try do the things you want to do. Just want a tough look for a daily? Big tyres, cheap lift and extended bump stops are sweet. Want a mud slinging daily that doesn't see much flex and weird angles on rock steps? Spend your money on tyres and half decent suspension that isn't going to rust out and break seals from the water and mud and extended bump stops is also fine. Use the vehicle for work carrying and towing a load and off-road play on weekends? Good suspension with correct spring rate for the weight you carry and bigger quality tyres and cut those wheels wells to clear because you will have a bad day when steering and suspension components break or you bend the chassis when that weight comes slamming down from a bump or pothole on the highway and that bump stop won't do shit! rock crawling or off-road racing or any other type of tracks that require good articulation with no scrubbing or rubbing then you need to go all out in cutting wheel wells, extended control arms, long travel suspension with quality shocks and perfected spring rate with not too much of a lift to keep GC low, and big high quality tyres.. but for proper rock crawlers IFS is a bit pointless anyway. Basically what I'm saying is, people need to take their pretty basic vehicle out and find the stuff they like the most and do the most of and find a good compromise to exactly what you need out of the vehicle. I see all these crazy rigs that people have done crazy work to with the generic big lift, big tyres, big flex, lockers and all going only to the same places I used to go in my old stock Hilux and the top half of their shocks are crusty with old dirt because it never even reaches that level of travel. They would have done just fine with a cheap lift and bigger tyres with extended bump stops and never even noticed that bit of lost travel and would have got the big tyres to fit for a fraction of the cost of cutting wells and high end long travel suspension because they were told that's what they need. Don't modify until you have reached that limit a few times.. it may never actually be an issue. I went from 37" tyres and 4" lift to 2" lift and 35" tyres and it's so much more drivable, has way more power, the little bit of traction I may have lost I got back with far slower and better crawl control because of the gearing AND it's given me back another 9° of CG so I'm far safer from ending up on my lid on crazy angles and I literally do every single track I've ever done and I've run into a diff clearance issue ONCE which was easily fixed with a set of MaxTrax under the left rear wheel.. perfect example of spending money and modifying when I first started and actually making the vehicle worse for what I needed it for and wasting money and time doing things before I knew what I needed.
Great vid, learned so much in 9:07 minutes. Been wasting my time researching lift kits, uca, etc. I should have watched this vid 1st! If possible any chance you can do a vid on basic setup for a 2000+ Lexus gx460’s…???
Great vid! Measurements and examples help a lot, I've got stock suspension and 33s, seems like a good amount of work to go 35s, mine as well go 37s! 🤘🤣🤷
Very great video! You missed the phrase "depending on your vehicle". Most IFS rigs are limited by their wheel. Others - being a very small amount can clear bigger tires without rubbing or many negative consequences by adding bigger tires from a small lift. I think this video should be shown to everyone who wheels with IFS. Just keep in mind, some rigs have big enough wheel wells that they can get away with it. It is however, not common for an IFS rig to have been designed with bigger tires in mind. Especially not in this day and age.
For sure, we are a Toyota specific shop, so just assumed most people watching our stuff are also into Toyota's. The point of the video is that a lift doesn't magically make the wheel well bigger
So what other combinations of mods WOULD achieve the desired results for light-moderate off-road use💁🏼♀️ I think you’re painfully limiting ppls potential by stifling the problem solving process...😕 js Even though they are more serious, they should still be mentioned, eh? Lol you talk like cutting is the only option 😅 Great. Video thanks! #selfharmoffroad
So if I put 33 inch tires on and a lift ~2" to fully realize the value of the 33 I need to cut the cab mount and pound the pinch welds flat so I can take full advantage of the tires with no rubbing? (same for 35" tires, except I'd likely need more cutting and pounding) And even when I do that my down travel gain (assuming the Bilsteins in the example) only gain 1 inch of down travel?)
If you lift 2" you lose 2" of down travel, and gain 2" of up travel. With these Bilstein 6112 shocks, you gain 1" of down travel, so in the end you lose 1" of down travel by lifting 2". Hopefully that makes sense.
Thanks for this information! It would be nice if you could get a Nissan Frontier to build along with your Toyota. I just read on another page that you are a Toyota shop, so guess that cancels the Nissan Build request, lol. But you did a great job explaining IFS lifts!
Yeah we don't work on many Nissan's, but the concepts are all still the exact same! The Nissan just has less travel to start with, and less room to get more unfortunately
I am looking into bigger tires for my 89 4runner I have 31s right now and plan on putting bigger tires on would a body lift help with the off-road clearance so I would not have to cut anything I have heard that the body lift would give clearance for bigger tires off-road
Hi thanks for the very informative video. What about removing the front sway bar heard its not that hard to do for better off road performance, and of course could always just reinstall for use of street driving. Just kinda sucks on these gen 3 tacomas no one has made a quick disconnect for the front sway bar just with a press of a switch.
0. Did I get this right? The top limit of the wheel travel is the rubber bump stop. The bottom limit is the full open length of the strut. The difference between these is the "wheel travel". 1. When you say that only the static equilibrium point shifts when the ride height is "lifted", what type of lift do you mean? How was this "lift" achieved.? 2. If a top hat spacer is fitted above the strut, to achieve the aforesaid "lift", then the static equilibrium point would still shift down. But would the strut's extended length also cause the down travel to increase beyond the previous droop limit. Would this mean that the wheel travel in this case is not conserved and has increased? (by an amount equal to spacer thickness) ? Thanks for the video and effort in explaining it practically.
@@4xhoser I got king shocks front steel bumper and I did a Body mount chop.... 12’ tundra. Bumper not necessary but gives you a lot more approaching angle and clearance
So if you do the cutting (and re-gearing) for a larger tire, say 35s when you're stock is 31, are there ramifications to your other driveline components like CV angles, strut clearance, or control arms?
Yes there are ramifications. Cv angles are perpetually at a more severe angle. The added weight is harder on all bushings, joints and even differential. They will wear sooner and possibly break earlier and easier than with stock size.
Simply cutting and regearing won't have an affect on any driveline or suspension components. Lifting your suspension will, which is why I always recommend a modest amount of lift, around 1.5-2". Running this amount of lift, I haven't seen any excessive wear just due to the lift. However, running larger tires does have an impact for sure, the extra weight and leverage wears out components faster. I also find that as people put on larger tires and better suspension, they drive their trucks harder, which also obviously wears out components faster.
I love the video, but I do have a question. Are 33's a NO-GO even if they are skinny 33's? If so, what is the largest skinny that would fit without trimming?
with the right wheel offset (stock wheels are usually pretty good, actually, as long as you don't rub the tire on your UCA), you should be able to fit 33's on most toyota IFS, or get very close. alignment matters too, getting the most caster you can with the cam bolts in your LCA will push your wheel forward and away from the pinch seam and body mount.
So if I want to fit 33” tyres on a 4Runner 5th Gen but I’ve added weight and need to change to shock with stiffer coil I may not need a lift but a BMC? I see options for 0-2” or 2-3”. Is there any advantage going to 2-3” if you are doing a chop?
Yes a cab mount chops and some additional trimming is what you would need! A small amount of lift is great to give a small amount of added approach/departure angles. Most high end suspensions will lift around 1-2", but add that lost down travel back in with extended stroke lengths
On some other vids they stressed the importance of wheel offset for clearance vs. suspension lift. I was surprised that wasn't mentioned. Is it a myth as well?
It's definitely a factor, for sure. but in the end, it really just determines how much you have to cut, and where. Not whether you have to or not. I want to re-do this video better, with more demonstration on how things like wheel specs and alignment affect tire clearance.
Are you saying that the only benefit to bigger front bumpstops is to prevent the tires from hitting the top of the fender while offroading? But the downside is that it lessens the up travel? Doesn't bigger bumpstops also protect the front shocks from compressing too far?
The stock bumps already protect the shock from compressing too far. Spacing them down limits up travel more, which can be helpful for stopping the tire from hitting the fender, but you do lose some suspension travel
I've heard that a 4" loft is getting at the max of an IFS vehicle because the UCA hit the coils at this point. So would a 4" lift actually begin to limit wheel travel compared to a 3" lift? And would a 2" lift have more wheel travel than a 3" lift?
Up travel and down travel are different and need different ratios for different goals and "lifts" 4" would be horrible unless you do a drop bracket which is completely pointless and performs horribly.
I was told by a shop to lift my Taco for 33's put a spacer on a 6112, for a comfortable ride,to me its a waste of money Im not using the whole shock range ,whats the point am I right? So "right way" is to cmc ,viper cut lift 2 inches and call it a day 😅 Thanks for the video Im a subscriber enjoy your channel
If you use a block on top of the struts, you would have to run extended bump stops to keep yourself from destroying your shocks. Then you would have to limit down travel, or compensate for the lift, because they will over extend the stock components. The UCA's will often contact the coilover at droop, the CV axles may bind, and the LCA won't be at optimal angle. You are essentially forced to lose down travel instead of up travel.
@@OverlandOutfitters thanks for the reply. I was a bit un-precise in my comment. I ment a block above the strut assembly, so you won't get any impact on the strut. The other issues you mention are absolutely relevant. But let's say those are handled (or ignored), would you then be able to gain clearance to mount larger tires?
@@ErikTaraldsen I understood what you meant, but it's hard to demonstrate in writing. If you space the entire coil over assembly down, but did nothing else, you would destroy your coil overs, and have metal on metal contact in a few places. But yes, you would have moved the bottom out point to lower down, which will keep your tires from hitting the wheel well, depending on tire size. However, your down travel will need to be limited, to prevent UCA's contacting the coils, and bump stop spacers would need to be added, otherwise your shock body becomes the bump stop. Maybe I will do a follow up video using a spacer on top of the strut to demonstrate the impacts it has on the suspension one day. Spacers are not a performance upgrade. They are good for lift for driving around the street, and nothing else. We won't even install spacer lifts in our shop, but we do remove a lot of them!
But when you installed longer strut you actually gained 1 inch of possible up travel and increased the total travel. If you lower your bump stops by an inch (or probably half inch depending where they are) you will come back to the FACTORY amount of uptravel (not less!) and you will prevent larger tires from rubbing the fender. This way you will stay with the original amount of travel and prevent tires from damaging the fenders
not quite how it works unfortunately! longer strut actually adds to your down travel, not up travel. Down travel has a hard limit of the upper control arm hitting the coil, which is why spacers are a bad idea. Most spacer lifts will allow the UCA to hit the coil when the wheel droops out. You actually gain up travel by lifting, but down travel is equally important, and there isn't much of it to begin with, but you lose it when lifting.
@@OverlandOutfitters I didn't understand this point. I would like to lift with spacers than doing anything with struts. I don't want to change my stock tyres. I want to gain more ground clearance. Will this be OK?
Less clearance in the front than the rear.. it would be nice if your suspension system centered the hub in the wheel well, front to rear. That would probably be as helpful as lifting.. 💡
Not too many options to do that without getting much more involved, such as an LCA pivot relocation, which we've definitely been doing a lot more of. I do agree though! Probably even more helpful honestly.
Putting a lift in my 4wd with independent suspension all round, I was able to clear 2" larger tyres. My clearance issue on stock suspension was the upper guards, especially with cornering and articulation challenges. I put the 2" lift in and it now clears all around the tyre, no rub on max suspension compression, full turn lock ect. As well as the standard benefits of ground clearance and angles. The struts might not lower the compression height, but the springs seem to do that well enough. And some people include bump stop spacers when they lift their cars. This video does not apply to ALL independent suspension vehicles. But in saying that, I wouldn't be able to go bigger tyres than what I currently have without additional lift which is not legal for road use anyway where I am and not a good idea with I-S regardless
If you use bump stop spacers, then you are limiting up travel which will help clear larger tires, but does not help performance. Where your bump stop is determines clearance, not your shocks. Adding a suspension lift does not magically make your wheel wells bigger. Maybe you don't bottom out very often with your new suspension, so you don't rub, but if you haven't pulled the coil out, and tested clearance properly, you won't know for sure. It's just physics baby!
Ok but now we have body lift and the 3rd option that makes it even what if you used all 3.ways I'm asking becouse my idea is simple lift my suv from a 255/55/18 and like 12 cm of space from important car parts to rocks and other stuff
To a 285/45 or 55/22 with like atlest 18 or maybe even 22 cm so totally lift up the hole bottom of my car and upgrade everything so it can just become higher ? Or is that just not possible ps my car max is that 255 55 18 so unless I change something no way I fit that so u sead u have to cut I ask if I preserve the same dimensions of my tier and rim and just make the hole car up more can I do it with no cutting simply making a new taller in all sircumstaness car or no way ?
Limit a bit your uptravel when you have a +2" lift is not going to harm your "real world" suspension travel: in facts when you need more travel and more traction is when going uphill ... and when going uphill there's not enough load on front axle to reach full sospension uptravel, even with extended bumpstops. Other than this ... great informations!
@@TheIznog We are a performance shop, so performance is at the core of everything we do. If the only goal is looks, then this video is not really relevant. There are lots of ways to fit bigger tires the wrong way. If somebody is really "upgrading" their suspension, then the only way to fit bigger tires is to cut plastic and metal out of the way. I just tubbed my Tacoma to fit 37's, and they clear full bump, lock to lock, and it is amazing! Cut around 4" out of the wheel well and 2.5" out of the firewall.
@@OverlandOutfitters 100% agree but you can't discount bigger tires straight up as a performance enhancer for offroading, be it in a car a truck on on a bycicle. Larger tires will make rolling over obstacles much easier. Most people dont want to cut their trucks because they think it looks bad and it's fine. There is not one good answer for every build, its all about compromises and how much money you want to spend vs what trail you intend to run.
@@TheIznog Like I said, we are a performance shop, so if looks are more important to somebody than performance, this video doesn't really apply. I'm just trying to explain how IFS actually works, because there are a lot of misconceptions around it. Whether people want to use that knowledge or not is not up to me. I understand perfectly well the advantage of larger tires. I also understand the advantage of having full up and down travel. However, there are definitely ways to do it right, and make it look good too! Either way, as long as people are getting out there and having a good time, it's all good
The point of this video is that you can't clear bigger tires with just a lift. of course you can limit your travel by an inch or more with bump stop spacers to prevent the tire hitting the wheel well, but if you are spending a bunch of money on fancy suspension, why would you want to do that? I think the point some people are missing is that you can't clear larger tires properly with full suspension travel without cutting/tubbing for clearance.
@@OverlandOutfitters you’d be spending “so much money” on a dime sized piece of “fancy aluminum”? I forgot most of the guys just buy kits these days I guess. You also wouldn’t be losing any travel if you used a spacer on the shock to move it down, then used a bump stop spacer to move the bump stop the same amount to prevent the spring from binding. There’s always other options, and this one happens to be as cheap n easy as it gets. Oh wait, let me guess… spacers are bad? That seems to be the running joke everyone believes these days too
@@thomblank2915 people spend several thousand dollars on their shocks, which are designed to get the most travel possible. If you put a spacer under the bump stop, then you are wasting some of that up-travel. If you put a spacer on top of the shock, it pushes the control arms and spindle too low, and the upper ball joint will contact the coil on full extension, which is obviously not good. This is why spacer lifts are bad. I install and work on these suspension systems every day and have seen it all, as well as the pros/cons of each. All I am saying is that if you want no-compromise performance, you have to cut. If you want to add spacers and compromise travel, that's fine too, but you will be leaving performance on the table.
@@OverlandOutfitters I don’t understand what you mean by saying you work on them “everyday” and have “seen it all”. anybody can wrench on cars without understanding them. you’re talking about a case where a spacer on top of the shock is sized too big, but you knew that. Just like if a tire is simply too big, you can’t cut for it either, but you knew that. Let me clarify; if done correctly, there’s more than one way to skin the cat. Suggesting there’s only one “no compromise” way to do it is untrue. And on this idea of “No-compromise performance”, there’s simply no such thing. You’re always giving up something, which in your cutting case, is metal/plastic/oem safety/looks and possibly a body mount. One more flaw with you testing flex like this. It’s likely you’re jacking it passed the point that you’re gonna get to normally, even offroad, unless you’re jumping it. And if you did jump it, you’ll probably have bigger problems than a fender kiss.
@@thomblank2915 I'm just thinking here, if you want me to make another video going through spacers, bump stop spacers, how to cycle suspension properly for testing, or whatever else, I'd be more than happy to make it happen, and show some empirical evidence one way or the other. The smallest top plate spacer you can get is 1/4", and if you have something like a King or Fox extended travel shock in the front, plus the .25" spacer, the ball joint hits the coils; I've seen this in a few different vehicles. You can get away with a .25" spacer on shorter travel shocks in the front, but nothing taller; even 1/2" will cause the ball joint to contact the coil. I'd say any tire can fit depending on how much you want to cut, and if you still want it to be road legal haha. I have 37's on my daily Tacoma right now, which takes a lot of cutting/tubbing, and I've seen 40's done as well, though these start to be trail only type rigs. There are always multiple ways to get the same end result, I won't argue that. For me, clearing large tires properly, while maximizing performance means keeping as much travel as the suspension offers, with absolutely no rubbing. Obviously shock tuning etc plays a huge part in performance as well. Yes you are making the sacrifice that you have to cut some body work/plastic/etc, but those are not "performance" related. I should state that I'm talking about off-road performance though. If somebody would rather sacrifice some travel, or have some rubbing, instead of cutting, then that's totally fine and will work, but to me, that's not maximizing off-road performance. I have jumped my truck many times, we even have a video up on here with a very small jump that I was doing. This was with 37's on my Tacoma. When clearancing tires, best practice is to cycle the suspension to metal on metal contact, which means removing the bump stops completely. From here you clearance with around .5-1" of space remaining. Then you bump and strap (if running limit straps) the travel around .5" short of bottoming/topping out the shock. The frames on these Toyotas flex so much that this is the only way to clearance and know you won't rub on a hard hit. In this video, we left the bump stop in, and just cycled to bump contact, which means that there's actually a bit more room to go in real world use. Anyway, I'm happy for the conversation, and if you have some things you'd like to see me test and show in video, let me know and I'll try to make it happen!
This should be mandatory for all new off roaders.
Sure would make my life easier!
I dont mean to be so offtopic but does anyone know a method to get back into an instagram account??
I stupidly forgot the account password. I would love any assistance you can offer me!
@Jimmy Trenton I really appreciate your reply. I got to the site through google and im trying it out atm.
Looks like it's gonna take quite some time so I will reply here later with my results.
@Jimmy Trenton It did the trick and I now got access to my account again. I am so happy:D
Thanks so much you saved my ass!
@Preston Hunter You are welcome :D
Far too many people do not understand this basic premise. Good video.
The comments show that many, even with visual examples of why a lift doesn't actually help them fit tires, still don't understand what the word "fit" implies.
If you can't cycle the suspension without the tire hitting during any turn or angle, sway bar or not, the tire doesn't "fit".
That's the plain english for those who keep arguing
I do need to explain this a lot! Haha
Again, thank you very much for your kind assistance and knowledge.
That's why you also do a body lift if you don't want to cut your fenders
Nice to see a video covering the concepts with examples finally. Nicely done! Branding's looking sharp too...
Very helpful to the point and made my mind up to stay with stock size. I have done a 2-inch lift and dropped axle to keep CV drive straight. Thanks
and why did you drop the diff, because your lift supplier told you so? do the research and you will realize you wasted few bucks
Nice. At 6:30 I think you meant the rear axle, just to clarify for people who might not have understood.
Super helpful video. SO MANY people with 4x4s should watch this. I feel like too many people do not understand that a lift does NOT help clear larger tires.
Good video for beginners and those with lack of patience, but anybody willing to lift IFS should get through technicals of Tinkers Adventures videos, so they understand the suspension on IFS platform
SUPER helpful! We'll see what happens with my build, but I've got nothing against trimming/CMC if needed.
That's the spirit! Haha!
I agree to some extent. I have always understood this and it's definitely worth calculating in when you want bigger tyres and more suspension travel. However, my 80 series clears 35" tyres through my entire travel range with some clearing in the wheel well which is necessary for the tracks I do. I have a friend that never does these tracks and basically just does basic tracks with some fairly small straightforward hill climbs and mainly a bunch of mud holes. He doesn't need the extra travel and just needed to fit the biggest tyres he could to clear the diffs in the mud holes and water crossings. He added extended bump stops to avoid hitting with the last inch of upward travel. Makes no sense to cut into the wheel well when you are basically never going to need the extra travel but your main concern is clearing the diff in massive tyre ruts. He could have also got the same result by just doing a 1 or 2 inch body lift. A vehicle is always engineered with compromise. You get one thing and you have to take another thing away. Just depends on your uses and only you know what limits your vehicle is reaching when you try do the things you want to do. Just want a tough look for a daily? Big tyres, cheap lift and extended bump stops are sweet. Want a mud slinging daily that doesn't see much flex and weird angles on rock steps? Spend your money on tyres and half decent suspension that isn't going to rust out and break seals from the water and mud and extended bump stops is also fine. Use the vehicle for work carrying and towing a load and off-road play on weekends? Good suspension with correct spring rate for the weight you carry and bigger quality tyres and cut those wheels wells to clear because you will have a bad day when steering and suspension components break or you bend the chassis when that weight comes slamming down from a bump or pothole on the highway and that bump stop won't do shit! rock crawling or off-road racing or any other type of tracks that require good articulation with no scrubbing or rubbing then you need to go all out in cutting wheel wells, extended control arms, long travel suspension with quality shocks and perfected spring rate with not too much of a lift to keep GC low, and big high quality tyres.. but for proper rock crawlers IFS is a bit pointless anyway. Basically what I'm saying is, people need to take their pretty basic vehicle out and find the stuff they like the most and do the most of and find a good compromise to exactly what you need out of the vehicle. I see all these crazy rigs that people have done crazy work to with the generic big lift, big tyres, big flex, lockers and all going only to the same places I used to go in my old stock Hilux and the top half of their shocks are crusty with old dirt because it never even reaches that level of travel. They would have done just fine with a cheap lift and bigger tyres with extended bump stops and never even noticed that bit of lost travel and would have got the big tyres to fit for a fraction of the cost of cutting wells and high end long travel suspension because they were told that's what they need. Don't modify until you have reached that limit a few times.. it may never actually be an issue. I went from 37" tyres and 4" lift to 2" lift and 35" tyres and it's so much more drivable, has way more power, the little bit of traction I may have lost I got back with far slower and better crawl control because of the gearing AND it's given me back another 9° of CG so I'm far safer from ending up on my lid on crazy angles and I literally do every single track I've ever done and I've run into a diff clearance issue ONCE which was easily fixed with a set of MaxTrax under the left rear wheel.. perfect example of spending money and modifying when I first started and actually making the vehicle worse for what I needed it for and wasting money and time doing things before I knew what I needed.
Aren’t 80’s solid axle in front?
Great vid, learned so much in 9:07 minutes. Been wasting my time researching lift kits, uca, etc. I should have watched this vid 1st!
If possible any chance you can do a vid on basic setup for a 2000+ Lexus gx460’s…???
So just like a solid axle a larger diameter tire will lift an IFS?
Great vid! Measurements and examples help a lot, I've got stock suspension and 33s, seems like a good amount of work to go 35s, mine as well go 37s! 🤘🤣🤷
well, some go for the look whith above 2.5" lift and some stay below that for better offroad performance
Very great video! You missed the phrase "depending on your vehicle". Most IFS rigs are limited by their wheel. Others - being a very small amount can clear bigger tires without rubbing or many negative consequences by adding bigger tires from a small lift. I think this video should be shown to everyone who wheels with IFS. Just keep in mind, some rigs have big enough wheel wells that they can get away with it. It is however, not common for an IFS rig to have been designed with bigger tires in mind. Especially not in this day and age.
For sure, we are a Toyota specific shop, so just assumed most people watching our stuff are also into Toyota's. The point of the video is that a lift doesn't magically make the wheel well bigger
So what other combinations of mods WOULD achieve the desired results for light-moderate off-road use💁🏼♀️ I think you’re painfully limiting ppls potential by stifling the problem solving process...😕 js Even though they are more serious, they should still be mentioned, eh?
Lol you talk like cutting is the only option 😅
Great. Video thanks!
#selfharmoffroad
So if I put 33 inch tires on and a lift ~2" to fully realize the value of the 33 I need to cut the cab mount and pound the pinch welds flat so I can take full advantage of the tires with no rubbing? (same for 35" tires, except I'd likely need more cutting and pounding) And even when I do that my down travel gain (assuming the Bilsteins in the example) only gain 1 inch of down travel?)
If you lift 2" you lose 2" of down travel, and gain 2" of up travel. With these Bilstein 6112 shocks, you gain 1" of down travel, so in the end you lose 1" of down travel by lifting 2". Hopefully that makes sense.
Thanks for this information! It would be nice if you could get a Nissan Frontier to build along with your Toyota. I just read on another page that you are a Toyota shop, so guess that cancels the Nissan Build request, lol. But you did a great job explaining IFS lifts!
Yeah we don't work on many Nissan's, but the concepts are all still the exact same! The Nissan just has less travel to start with, and less room to get more unfortunately
Thank you for sharing. You are saving me money and headache.
I am looking into bigger tires for my 89 4runner I have 31s right now and plan on putting bigger tires on would a body lift help with the off-road clearance so I would not have to cut anything I have heard that the body lift would give clearance for bigger tires off-road
Body lifts do give more clearance for bigger tires, but they also raise your center of gravity, which I'm not a fan of personally
Hi thanks for the very informative video. What about removing the front sway bar heard its not that hard to do for better off road performance, and of course could always just reinstall for use of street driving. Just kinda sucks on these gen 3 tacomas no one has made a quick disconnect for the front sway bar just with a press of a switch.
0. Did I get this right? The top limit of the wheel travel is the rubber bump stop. The bottom limit is the full open length of the strut. The difference between these is the "wheel travel".
1. When you say that only the static equilibrium point shifts when the ride height is "lifted", what type of lift do you mean? How was this "lift" achieved.?
2. If a top hat spacer is fitted above the strut, to achieve the aforesaid "lift", then the static equilibrium point would still shift down. But would the strut's extended length also cause the down travel to increase beyond the previous droop limit. Would this mean that the wheel travel in this case is not conserved and has increased? (by an amount equal to spacer thickness) ?
Thanks for the video and effort in explaining it practically.
I got 3” lift 35s and can circulate fully no problem IFS Suspension
Here also, Ram 1500
Curious to what lift and did you cut, I've got 33s on no lift no rubbing, '18 tacoma
@@4xhoser I got king shocks front steel bumper and I did a Body mount chop.... 12’ tundra. Bumper not necessary but gives you a lot more approaching angle and clearance
So if you do the cutting (and re-gearing) for a larger tire, say 35s when you're stock is 31, are there ramifications to your other driveline components like CV angles, strut clearance, or control arms?
Yes there are ramifications. Cv angles are perpetually at a more severe angle. The added weight is harder on all bushings, joints and even differential. They will wear sooner and possibly break earlier and easier than with stock size.
Simply cutting and regearing won't have an affect on any driveline or suspension components. Lifting your suspension will, which is why I always recommend a modest amount of lift, around 1.5-2". Running this amount of lift, I haven't seen any excessive wear just due to the lift. However, running larger tires does have an impact for sure, the extra weight and leverage wears out components faster. I also find that as people put on larger tires and better suspension, they drive their trucks harder, which also obviously wears out components faster.
From my experience it widens the track width but doesn’t effect approach height I think but it handles better
I love the video, but I do have a question. Are 33's a NO-GO even if they are skinny 33's? If so, what is the largest skinny that would fit without trimming?
with the right wheel offset (stock wheels are usually pretty good, actually, as long as you don't rub the tire on your UCA), you should be able to fit 33's on most toyota IFS, or get very close. alignment matters too, getting the most caster you can with the cam bolts in your LCA will push your wheel forward and away from the pinch seam and body mount.
So if I want to fit 33” tyres on a 4Runner 5th Gen but I’ve added weight and need to change to shock with stiffer coil I may not need a lift but a BMC? I see options for 0-2” or 2-3”. Is there any advantage going to 2-3” if you are doing a chop?
Yes a cab mount chops and some additional trimming is what you would need! A small amount of lift is great to give a small amount of added approach/departure angles. Most high end suspensions will lift around 1-2", but add that lost down travel back in with extended stroke lengths
Would you foresee any issues fitting a 33” tire onto a 100 series Land Cruiser? (Stock tires are 31”)
Best way is to just try it 🤘 get 1 tire for cheap and put it on
On some other vids they stressed the importance of wheel offset for clearance vs. suspension lift. I was surprised that wasn't mentioned. Is it a myth as well?
It's definitely a factor, for sure. but in the end, it really just determines how much you have to cut, and where. Not whether you have to or not.
I want to re-do this video better, with more demonstration on how things like wheel specs and alignment affect tire clearance.
Are you saying that the only benefit to bigger front bumpstops is to prevent the tires from hitting the top of the fender while offroading? But the downside is that it lessens the up travel? Doesn't bigger bumpstops also protect the front shocks from compressing too far?
The stock bumps already protect the shock from compressing too far. Spacing them down limits up travel more, which can be helpful for stopping the tire from hitting the fender, but you do lose some suspension travel
I've heard that a 4" loft is getting at the max of an IFS vehicle because the UCA hit the coils at this point. So would a 4" lift actually begin to limit wheel travel compared to a 3" lift? And would a 2" lift have more wheel travel than a 3" lift?
Up travel and down travel are different and need different ratios for different goals and "lifts" 4" would be horrible unless you do a drop bracket which is completely pointless and performs horribly.
This is really informative. Thank you.
Great vid! I have a question, what is the largest tire I can put on for offroad on a stock tacoma 2020?
Nice video. Great demonstration.
Great video, great info so at what tire size would you recommend a re gear on a v8 4Runner?
35s could use a regear, but you could get by without
I was told by a shop to lift my Taco for 33's put a spacer on a 6112, for a comfortable ride,to me its a waste of money Im not using the whole shock range ,whats the point am I right?
So "right way" is to cmc ,viper cut lift 2 inches and call it a day 😅
Thanks for the video Im a subscriber enjoy your channel
Are those dutatracs?
the tires on the stock wheels are KO2's, and the tires on the black wheels are Duratracs
You demonstrate a lift where you do not limit the up travel. What would happen using a block on top of the struts?
If you use a block on top of the struts, you would have to run extended bump stops to keep yourself from destroying your shocks. Then you would have to limit down travel, or compensate for the lift, because they will over extend the stock components. The UCA's will often contact the coilover at droop, the CV axles may bind, and the LCA won't be at optimal angle. You are essentially forced to lose down travel instead of up travel.
@@OverlandOutfitters thanks for the reply. I was a bit un-precise in my comment. I ment a block above the strut assembly, so you won't get any impact on the strut. The other issues you mention are absolutely relevant. But let's say those are handled (or ignored), would you then be able to gain clearance to mount larger tires?
@@ErikTaraldsen I understood what you meant, but it's hard to demonstrate in writing. If you space the entire coil over assembly down, but did nothing else, you would destroy your coil overs, and have metal on metal contact in a few places. But yes, you would have moved the bottom out point to lower down, which will keep your tires from hitting the wheel well, depending on tire size. However, your down travel will need to be limited, to prevent UCA's contacting the coils, and bump stop spacers would need to be added, otherwise your shock body becomes the bump stop. Maybe I will do a follow up video using a spacer on top of the strut to demonstrate the impacts it has on the suspension one day. Spacers are not a performance upgrade. They are good for lift for driving around the street, and nothing else. We won't even install spacer lifts in our shop, but we do remove a lot of them!
But when you installed longer strut you actually gained 1 inch of possible up travel and increased the total travel. If you lower your bump stops by an inch (or probably half inch depending where they are) you will come back to the FACTORY amount of uptravel (not less!) and you will prevent larger tires from rubbing the fender.
This way you will stay with the original amount of travel and prevent tires from damaging the fenders
not quite how it works unfortunately! longer strut actually adds to your down travel, not up travel. Down travel has a hard limit of the upper control arm hitting the coil, which is why spacers are a bad idea. Most spacer lifts will allow the UCA to hit the coil when the wheel droops out. You actually gain up travel by lifting, but down travel is equally important, and there isn't much of it to begin with, but you lose it when lifting.
@@OverlandOutfitters I didn't understand this point. I would like to lift with spacers than doing anything with struts. I don't want to change my stock tyres. I want to gain more ground clearance. Will this be OK?
Wouldn’t a body lift achieve the extra space?
If it doesn’t work, what’s the solution?
Less clearance in the front than the rear.. it would be nice if your suspension system centered the hub in the wheel well, front to rear. That would probably be as helpful as lifting.. 💡
Not too many options to do that without getting much more involved, such as an LCA pivot relocation, which we've definitely been doing a lot more of. I do agree though! Probably even more helpful honestly.
Putting a lift in my 4wd with independent suspension all round, I was able to clear 2" larger tyres. My clearance issue on stock suspension was the upper guards, especially with cornering and articulation challenges.
I put the 2" lift in and it now clears all around the tyre, no rub on max suspension compression, full turn lock ect. As well as the standard benefits of ground clearance and angles.
The struts might not lower the compression height, but the springs seem to do that well enough. And some people include bump stop spacers when they lift their cars.
This video does not apply to ALL independent suspension vehicles.
But in saying that, I wouldn't be able to go bigger tyres than what I currently have without additional lift which is not legal for road use anyway where I am and not a good idea with I-S regardless
If you use bump stop spacers, then you are limiting up travel which will help clear larger tires, but does not help performance. Where your bump stop is determines clearance, not your shocks. Adding a suspension lift does not magically make your wheel wells bigger. Maybe you don't bottom out very often with your new suspension, so you don't rub, but if you haven't pulled the coil out, and tested clearance properly, you won't know for sure. It's just physics baby!
Ok but now we have body lift and the 3rd option that makes it even what if you used all 3.ways I'm asking becouse my idea is simple lift my suv from a 255/55/18 and like 12 cm of space from important car parts to rocks and other stuff
To a 285/45 or 55/22 with like atlest 18 or maybe even 22 cm so totally lift up the hole bottom of my car and upgrade everything so it can just become higher ? Or is that just not possible ps my car max is that 255 55 18 so unless I change something no way I fit that so u sead u have to cut I ask if I preserve the same dimensions of my tier and rim and just make the hole car up more can I do it with no cutting simply making a new taller in all sircumstaness car or no way ?
great video, thanks.
Good presentation
Great video.
Excellent info
Good video. We want more!
Limit a bit your uptravel when you have a +2" lift is not going to harm your "real world" suspension travel: in facts when you need more travel and more traction is when going uphill ... and when going uphill there's not enough load on front axle to reach full sospension uptravel, even with extended bumpstops. Other than this ... great informations!
Nice vid kids very well done 👍🏻
wouldn't a real IFS lift be dropping down the front carrier? actually moving the A-arms down. not just adding a different shock
That's called a drop bracket lift. You accomplish height but sacrifice center clearance and performance as drop brackets perform poorly
Drop bracket lifts for the win lol
🤙🤙🤙 Cut all the wheel wells!
This statement is incorrect.
I did a lift on my 92 Swb pajero and then 33” tyres on it. Made a huge difference!
Hear that everyone on r/TacomaWorld? It lets you clear bigger tires AT RIDE HEIGHT.
“Fitting Bigger Tires with an IFS Lift?! IT DOESN'T WORK! “
What doesn’t work?
Adding a lift does not create a bigger wheel well. You have to cut regardless of lifting 3 inches or lowering your truck 2 inches.
#301
Tinkers Adventure ua-cam.com/video/_68Hc8GtLko/v-deo.html
Just adjust the bump stops to limit uptravel...
why would you want to lose up travel? that negates half the benefits of upgraded suspension
@@OverlandOutfitters Agreed but most people upgrade their suspensions to fit bigger tires so...
@@TheIznog We are a performance shop, so performance is at the core of everything we do. If the only goal is looks, then this video is not really relevant. There are lots of ways to fit bigger tires the wrong way. If somebody is really "upgrading" their suspension, then the only way to fit bigger tires is to cut plastic and metal out of the way. I just tubbed my Tacoma to fit 37's, and they clear full bump, lock to lock, and it is amazing! Cut around 4" out of the wheel well and 2.5" out of the firewall.
@@OverlandOutfitters 100% agree but you can't discount bigger tires straight up as a performance enhancer for offroading, be it in a car a truck on on a bycicle. Larger tires will make rolling over obstacles much easier. Most people dont want to cut their trucks because they think it looks bad and it's fine.
There is not one good answer for every build, its all about compromises and how much money you want to spend vs what trail you intend to run.
@@TheIznog Like I said, we are a performance shop, so if looks are more important to somebody than performance, this video doesn't really apply. I'm just trying to explain how IFS actually works, because there are a lot of misconceptions around it. Whether people want to use that knowledge or not is not up to me. I understand perfectly well the advantage of larger tires. I also understand the advantage of having full up and down travel. However, there are definitely ways to do it right, and make it look good too! Either way, as long as people are getting out there and having a good time, it's all good
Actually, giving it a new bump position would debunk this video
The point of this video is that you can't clear bigger tires with just a lift. of course you can limit your travel by an inch or more with bump stop spacers to prevent the tire hitting the wheel well, but if you are spending a bunch of money on fancy suspension, why would you want to do that? I think the point some people are missing is that you can't clear larger tires properly with full suspension travel without cutting/tubbing for clearance.
@@OverlandOutfitters you’d be spending “so much money” on a dime sized piece of “fancy aluminum”? I forgot most of the guys just buy kits these days I guess. You also wouldn’t be losing any travel if you used a spacer on the shock to move it down, then used a bump stop spacer to move the bump stop the same amount to prevent the spring from binding. There’s always other options, and this one happens to be as cheap n easy as it gets.
Oh wait, let me guess… spacers are bad? That seems to be the running joke everyone believes these days too
@@thomblank2915 people spend several thousand dollars on their shocks, which are designed to get the most travel possible. If you put a spacer under the bump stop, then you are wasting some of that up-travel. If you put a spacer on top of the shock, it pushes the control arms and spindle too low, and the upper ball joint will contact the coil on full extension, which is obviously not good. This is why spacer lifts are bad.
I install and work on these suspension systems every day and have seen it all, as well as the pros/cons of each. All I am saying is that if you want no-compromise performance, you have to cut. If you want to add spacers and compromise travel, that's fine too, but you will be leaving performance on the table.
@@OverlandOutfitters I don’t understand what you mean by saying you work on them “everyday” and have “seen it all”. anybody can wrench on cars without understanding them.
you’re talking about a case where a spacer on top of the shock is sized too big, but you knew that. Just like if a tire is simply too big, you can’t cut for it either, but you knew that.
Let me clarify; if done correctly, there’s more than one way to skin the cat. Suggesting there’s only one “no compromise” way to do it is untrue.
And on this idea of “No-compromise performance”, there’s simply no such thing. You’re always giving up something, which in your cutting case, is metal/plastic/oem safety/looks and possibly a body mount.
One more flaw with you testing flex like this. It’s likely you’re jacking it passed the point that you’re gonna get to normally, even offroad, unless you’re jumping it. And if you did jump it, you’ll probably have bigger problems than a fender kiss.
@@thomblank2915 I'm just thinking here, if you want me to make another video going through spacers, bump stop spacers, how to cycle suspension properly for testing, or whatever else, I'd be more than happy to make it happen, and show some empirical evidence one way or the other.
The smallest top plate spacer you can get is 1/4", and if you have something like a King or Fox extended travel shock in the front, plus the .25" spacer, the ball joint hits the coils; I've seen this in a few different vehicles. You can get away with a .25" spacer on shorter travel shocks in the front, but nothing taller; even 1/2" will cause the ball joint to contact the coil.
I'd say any tire can fit depending on how much you want to cut, and if you still want it to be road legal haha. I have 37's on my daily Tacoma right now, which takes a lot of cutting/tubbing, and I've seen 40's done as well, though these start to be trail only type rigs.
There are always multiple ways to get the same end result, I won't argue that. For me, clearing large tires properly, while maximizing performance means keeping as much travel as the suspension offers, with absolutely no rubbing. Obviously shock tuning etc plays a huge part in performance as well. Yes you are making the sacrifice that you have to cut some body work/plastic/etc, but those are not "performance" related. I should state that I'm talking about off-road performance though. If somebody would rather sacrifice some travel, or have some rubbing, instead of cutting, then that's totally fine and will work, but to me, that's not maximizing off-road performance.
I have jumped my truck many times, we even have a video up on here with a very small jump that I was doing. This was with 37's on my Tacoma. When clearancing tires, best practice is to cycle the suspension to metal on metal contact, which means removing the bump stops completely. From here you clearance with around .5-1" of space remaining. Then you bump and strap (if running limit straps) the travel around .5" short of bottoming/topping out the shock. The frames on these Toyotas flex so much that this is the only way to clearance and know you won't rub on a hard hit. In this video, we left the bump stop in, and just cycled to bump contact, which means that there's actually a bit more room to go in real world use.
Anyway, I'm happy for the conversation, and if you have some things you'd like to see me test and show in video, let me know and I'll try to make it happen!