You pretty much nailed it on the benefits of reloading Jim, only accurate rifles matter. Minute of deer at 200 yards is 😂😅. In addition to what you mentioned I like to deburr the flashhole, segregate cases by weight and check for concentricity of the seated projectile but I’m retired and enjoy reloading when the snow is up to my butt here in the Idaho mountains !
I've been reloading since I was a youth with my dad. After venturing out on my own and paying attention to the finite details and getting extra gadgets (they're so worth it), custom handloads are the only way I'll go for all the reasons you called out. Custom bullet, custom seating depth, the powder you use, and the precise grain amounts that you figure out that each rifle likes... It's a no-brainer and much more satisfying to me. Another great video, Sir!
I grew up learning to reload with my grandfather. 35 years later I still enjoy it. There’s something to be said about putting all the skills and time together. It makes what I feel is a true rifleman which is a rare breed nowadays.
I have been reloading for probably 35 years now. I really don't think you save any money reloading you just shoot a lot more and buy more reloading stuff after 35 years I'm still buying more reloading stuff. Tool heads for every pistol and rifle cartridge you load in high volume. 5 or 6 sets of dies for 25 or 30 different cartridges that load before you know it you are shooting to load instead of loading to shoot. It's not cheep but to me it's worth every penny I just enjoy doing it.
I have been reloading for over 50 years now and my nephew called me because he bought his first new rifle and thought it should be more accurate, I agreed. A trip to the range showed a number of concerns. Cleaning and technique were a couple of problems and we managed to tighten his groups up a little but his Patriot in 6.5 Creedmoor should have shot to 1moa at least. I took the rifle home and started load development. Long story short went from the 143's he was shooting and changed to 130's seated .030" out, blueprinted his brass, moved to a mid-load with still plenty of velocity with a known powder and resized his brass with a .003" bump to the shoulder. Out at the range that rifle put 5 rounds sub 3/4moa no problem. He was sold on handloading so I set him up with a used Lyman Spartan press, a set of Lee dies that were on sale, a electronic scale and all the other small pieces that you would need for $150, many pieces bought used at gun shows. He took my recipe and started cranking out his own ammo, he's hooked and saving a ton of money in ammo costs. A progressive press is nice and turns out fine ammo but if you're looking for accuracy a single stage press, holding charges to a 1/10gr variance and nit-picking detail is what's needed. My own heavy barreled Howa 1500 in 6.5Cm will put 5 rounds into 1/4moa if I do my part with my handloaded 123 ELDm's. All done off my RCll bought all those years ago.
I haven’t bought a round of factory ammo in years. Not only can I control every aspect of the ammunition I’m firing, I actually enjoy the whole load development process. Something about going to the range and seeing all the time and money you’ve spent showing up as a 1/4” group!
I at least buy factory ammo to build up a supply of brass. Then, if I luck out and catch lightning ⚡ in a bottle I stick with it! If not, which is usually the case, I begin the process of load development. Plus, I don't shoot near as much as I once did {due to $$$ and I rarely buy a new rifle - although I have had my eye on a 6.5 PRC
@@ChronicalsofAl after I wrote that, I realized that about a year ago I put together a 6mm creedmoor, and when ordering brass, I saw that Midway had Barnes 112 match burner loaded ammo on clearance for $21 a box. I was paying $1 a piece for brass anyway, so I bought 5 boxes of that. Still have 3 boxes that I never shot. The PRC cartridges have me thinking about a new rifle too, just not sure if I want 6.5, 7mm, or the 300!
I'm convinced that with the penetration of the "new" copper bullets the 6.5 is plenty of medicine for all deer and antelope short of moose. But then I remember how sweet my 243 is and how accurate it is and I get confused and do nothing. I'm not really a 7 guy and I have a 300RUM that is the "elk hammer" to my hunting group, shit - sounds like I need to sell some of these rifles!
I'm Canadian and just filled my bull moose tag this year, used a .308 Win Federal Trophy Copper 165 grain. I know my rifle likes it, I've been using it for years and my safe is filled with dozens of boxes.
@@westhompson574 My dozens of boxes isn't limited by a law. Canada has terrible gun laws, but that doesn't excuse you just assuming things or making up nonsense in your mind. I have 45 boxes in my safe, that's 900 rounds of just .308.
@@westhompson574 What is the difference you're talking about? I could have hundreds of boxes if I wanted. Literally you're just making up garbage in your mind. There's enough problems with Canada's terrible gun laws. That doesn't permit you to just make up lies or nonsense in your mind. I'm not offended by anything you say, but I can still call you out for lying about stuff.
I’ve been reloading for awhile now, and agree with you about charging for your time for something you love to do. As for the cost, I just figured that the first bullet that I made and shot cost me $1,000, and from then on the cost of the equipment was free. That was one expensive round. Lol
One more thing I feel should be taken into consideration when discussing factory ammunition: Inconsistencies across different lot numbers. You might buy Hornady match and it shoots great out of your rifle. And the next batch you pick up is a different lot number and now you’re shooting XX fps slower on average and group size increased by XX%
Forget which podcast it was on, but there was a rep from Federal on there that mentioned Federal uses several different recipes that fall within similar performance based on component availability.
I have been handloading for more than 50 years and love it as a hobby. It allows me to shoot more with better results, any time, and I do not worry about ammo shortages or crazy prices. Great video.
I’m both. If I can catch factory ammo at a good price, I get it, particularly XM193 (5.56). Then I use that brass to reload. I’ve also purchased several hundred once-fired Lake City brass. You have to clean, Polish, and deprime them, but it’s worth it in the long run. When I reload, I don’t weight every charge. I normally weight every third charge. I use a Lee Perfect Powder Measure.
100% perfect. Here is an idea if you can accomplish it. Get 2 or 3 identical rifles but maybe a year apart on date manufactured shoot them for percision with hand loading bet they are different on the load to accomplish the same result... Last thought on the video some people ONLY shoot 100yards and a 4inch group kills there target and so most ammo shoots great ( more power too them ) others shoot a thousand yards shooting a 1inch group. We are all different do what's best for you but the knowledge of knowing some of this stuff can't hurt
I enjoy hand loading and even more at the range when I see positive results from something I made myself. Just wish powder and primers were easier to get so I could try more varieties. I haven't been able to branch out and try other things due to intermittent supply of components so I am sticking to what I know is working. Eventually that should change for the better. Great video once again, always happy to see a new Backfire video get posted.
When I buy a new gun I buy every box of ammo in that calibre the local store has. I test each make and use that as primary. I don't shoot enough to warrant the purchase of $1800aud worth of reloading gear, plus consumables. That's a LOT of factory ammo! MOA is good enough for what I do. I think there's hunting accuracy and range accuracy... Horses for courses. Yet another great video mate.
Agreed with most everything. I've handloaded my own ammo since 2000. Been nice on those years where ammo was short in the stores and I was able to keep up with my shooting habits. The one thing I've realized about reloading is how much I love tinkering with it. Messing with seating depth, powder, bullet selection, and a handful of other things keeps me entertained and helps make me practice that much more. I'm also cheap so I wouldn't shoot nearly as often nor as much if I was spending 400 bucks buying ammo regularly :)
I've been hand loading for 3 years (got started during covid). I've loaded somewhere around 300 - 400 rounds so far, for 2 different cartridges (30-06 and 7mm-08), and have worked up a few different draft loads for each cartridge. I think I finally have 1 recipie that I plan to stick with. I think I can safetly say that I fall in the group of "most handloders" described that maybe I can't beat factory ammo, or am just starting to, but... I have learned a ton about ballistics, terminal performance, bullet construction, torque settings and scopes in that time, and i have shot way more annually than I ever did before, so my shooting skills have increased a ton. I feel like I have gotten more things wrong along the way than I have gotten right. But I have learned a ton from those experiences and I hope that trend is starting to change. Plus, last fall, my son and I both killed mulies with cartridges I loaded... now that was cool! So, I'm going to keep doing it.
Another consideration- at least for me- is comfort. I have a Henry 45-70 i shoot for fun. With factory loads, I can’t shoot one box in a day. But I’ve been reloading with a lighter powder charge that seems to have no negative impact up to 100 yards and I can shoot more of those since they are easier on my shoulder. On the other hand, I also reload for my Howa .223 bolt action for accuracy and repeatability. While I didn’t evaluate costs to the same extent you did, my calculations showed that there hasn’t been a significant cost difference since prices came down last year. I don’t factor in my time because I enjoy reloading and I completely agree with your surfboard analogy.
That is a hard question to answer. While I do reload, it is mainly for volume to save money. For instance a friend brought me an ammo can full of pulled 30-06 military 150 grain FMJ projectiles. He thought that perhaps I could develop a 300 Black Out plinking load. I took the time and put together a load testing different powder amounts to find just the right grain for two different rifles. I used a Ruger American Ranch bolt action and an AR15 that I had put together. Surprisingly, both rifles liked the same combination giving me sub MOA groups. So now I have hundreds of pieces of brass to work with, plenty of small rifle primers and a boat load of free projectiles. I can easily load six or seven hundred rounds for very little cost and for nothing more than plinking. I used to buy five to 10 boxes a week of S&B 300 Black Out for about eleven bucks per box of 20, but those days are long gone. The reloading looks a lot better now in order to save me some money on rebuilding my cache of shooting ammo for this cartridge.
A good idea for a video would be weapon care, favorite solvents,oils,brushes, etc. maybe your favorite system of how you do it, keeping that pesky light surface rust off, clean glass.
Barrel harmonics are the key. Playing with the speed will move the nodal point to the end of the barrel and shrink the group. Sometimes you get lucky with off the shelf and sometimes you have to make your own.
While back Hornady had an explosion in what the media reported was their "Primer production division". Since there are no Hornady primers commercially available, this means they are producing their own primers for their ammo. Not to rag on Hornady, but these were the results I noticed. The factory ELD-X was showing up to 77 ES where the same barrel with hand loaded ELD-X were closer to 20. Lapua brass, CCi BR4 primers, 4350 all replace whatever Hornady used or created in their facility. I own an AMP annealer, it uses an Aztec mode to measure brass thickness and consistency in order to set it specifically to your brass. Using factory Hornady brass the annealer will give you 3 different measurements across 3 different brass from the same lot, by comparison it gives the same measure for multiple lapua brass. Going with the Lapua small primer brass (6.5) may also give you better chance of finding primers as opposed to reloading the factory brass with large primers.
You are so right about scales, I bit the bullet and spent the 500 dollars for the quality and the accuracy is amazing. Gavin at ultimate reloader is a greater resource. The scale is an A&D EJ-54D2. So happy with it. Get a quality resizing die like the ones from short action customs, and seating die by Redding. Learn to measure and adjust your dies for your rifles headspace, and seating depth to your rifles lands and grooves, and you’ll surpass factory. I read and used the book “Top Grade Ammo” by Zediker it helps a lot when moving from being able to make a cartridge to making precision rounds.
I hand load. I'm 73 and it's a great winter past time. Big money saver ! 59 gr vmax for plinking and 90 cold Berger for hunting. Love my 243 versatility and FRIENDLY FIRE. Keep up with the true stuff 👍
I'm getting back into reloading after 5 years of not doing it. I'm very excited to get everything going again. I'm one of those that geek out over all the gadgets and go way over board buying stuff. My main concern with starting back is finding primers at a decent cost. I've already been unable to locate large rifle primers for my 6.5 creedmoor.
@@danielrouw2593 looks like I'm going to have to go that route. I've got tons of small rifle primers were I used to reload 5.56. Hopefully they're still good. They're probably 7 or 8 years old.
@@Kentucky.Tactical , I recently loaded 100 rounds of 9mm with primers that were 30 years old (Clinton era) and they all fired, cycled the action and were accurate. They had been stored in a cool dry place in their factory cartons for all those years. About a week ago I was in the new Scheels sporting goods store in Chandler Arizona and they had shelves of primers $60 to $80 per 1000, no limit. Didn’t see any magnum primers though.
I just came back from a trip up and down the eastern seaboard, primers are starting to show up in stores at $70/thousand. Twice what I used to spend but better than $125. Check the large gun shops, Sportsmen's Warehouse had them and Hiatt's in Charlotte had 6'x6'x 5' piles of primers including full cases, any size. Powder is what now has jumped in price but at least it's out there.
I’ve gotten good results with factory in certain rifles and I remember in the past laughing how much equipment, components and time it takes for handloaders. But since becoming a handloader, first in pistol, now in rifle as well, I couldn’t imagine shooting with out doing it.
Love the video Jim! I have wanted to start hand loading since I retired 3 years ago. However I have not purchased any tools to do so yet as I can’t find primers! Haven’t seen a large rifle primer for sale in 3 years. Powder is only now becoming available for internet purchases and hazmat fees make it so expensive. Local stores are always stripped of powder here in southeast US. Just can’t find components in my area! It’s aggravating!
This was a great video. I'm a reloader and it's my hobby. Started out in 78' when I was a poor enlisted with a $12 Lee Handloader kit (still have it). Love every aspect of reloading, even case prep which I find relaxing. I have saved thousands by reloading and it has payed off all my equipment. But like you elegantly said, the ability to get the best accuracy in your gun is priceless.
I haven’t gone down the rabbit hole of hand loading yet but I do have 2 questions. 1. In general, will what woks best in one rifle (Ex. Your Sig Cross in 6.5 Creedmoor) work nearly as well in another Sig Cross in 6.5 Creedmoor? In other words, in general, will what works in one gun that is the same model and caliber work about as well in a different gun that is the same model and caliber. 2. Will the best seating depth change over time as the chamber gets shot out? Another way to say this is as the distance to the beginning of the rifling changes with use do you need to change the seating depth of the bullet to try and keep the jump to the rifling the same? I love your channel. Keep up the great work and please keep sharing your knowledge and experience
Anyone remember ammo shortages? I reload and have yet to ever experience an ammo shortage. That's because I buy the components in bulk when they are both available and affordable. Not long ago powder and primers were in short supply and the rules of supply & demand caused huge spikes in prices. Components have returned to a more sane level price wise with availabilty rising so stock up while you can. Oh yea, my handloads are always more accurate than the factory, especially when you figure in barrel life/throat erosion. You'll constantly have to chase done new factory loads as your barrel wears. It's better to do that handloading IMO.
I sure remember primer shortages! Not such a shortage now, but the price of reloading has skyrocketed. Locally, a hundred large rifle primers are $15.00. Gouging bastards they are.
I know there are lots of good reloaders, but I tend to run into one of two types. 1. Bubba handgun reloaders that reuse brass too many times or use bad recipes. 2. The rifle guy that thinks he knows better and can create some high pressure miracle round. These are the guys that blow up guns, get hit in the eye with a scope, have black and blue shoulders.
I would also argue that most reloaders biggest enemy is neck tension. Lack of proper annealing and a good resizing setup such as a bushing die and mandrel process. Short Action Customs sizing dies are the only ones I’ve seen do both in one step
I wanted to take a moment to just tell you that I watch a lot of you content and I find it very useful. I apricate all the information you share, especially the the reviews. Its very difficult to make purchasing decisions these days especially when it come to purchasing a new rifle, pistol, scopes, and so on. I mean lets face it, until you actually have one in your hands, cranking out rounds down range there's really not a way to know if it's even a good fit. With that said, keep up the good work! I certainly like what your doing! Thanks!!
I can’t remember what podcast it was, but I remember someone tried to explain it as having to do with the components and the internal ballistics being in harmony. I’m sure I’m wrong about that phrasing, but that’s sounds right and hopefully gets the point across.
@ja0298 you are correct, listening to some really experienced reloaders, (not me) there are some factory loads that really are that good. For loads like GMM, quality control probably goes a long way too. I've heard people say that if a 308 win. won't shoot with a near max charge of Imr4895 and a 168 OTM, the barrel is probably broken. I tried it and sure enough, it shot extremely well in my rifle.
According to the Marine Corps publication that replaced the M-118LR….which is now AB-39 Mk-316 mod 0, it’s Federal brass 42.0 grains of IMR-4064 175 Gr Sierra Boat Tail Hollowpoint Federal 210 primer Be sure to anneal every time, headspace and seat it correctly. It’s all I shoot in my .308 rifles. Semper USMC / Retired
@@MountaintravelerEddie Great info. Thanks! I wouldn't have guessed it used IMR 4064. I would have thought something slower burning. I'm gonna try it, actually.
Ive talked to people that have loaded their whole life. Even they tell me reloading isnt cheaper and factory loads these days are just about as consistent these days.
I don't remember all the details in the past, but did you ever try reloading for that Mossberg rifle you hated? Just curious. Our 308 Mossberg is kind of picky, but we found a good load for it eventually.
I'm factory ammo I'm afraid. Only because here in Ireland reloading isn't currently allowed unless you go do it in one or 2 places in the country. Silly but it might change in the future. I'd love to reload though... The thoughts of being able to do hunting/shooting stuff at home in the warm sounds great. Plus geeking out on all the different combos to get something my rifle likes seems very satisfying.
I just picked up a Bergara wilderness ridge in 300 win mag a few weeks ago. Tried 7 different factory loads before I found what it really likes. Most shoot 2 to 3in groups, then I tried American whitetail 150gr. Biggest group so far 1.06 at a hundred yards, 5 shot groups.
@@GymJones865 yes it’s pretty common nowadays that 223 rifles will be between 1/7 and 1/9 but back in the day 223 was really only looked at as a varmint caliber so light and fast as possible was the name of the game and most 223 rifles were 1/12 or 1/14. Even the first m16’s had 1/12 twist barrels
Commercial manufactured barrels have micro variations in metal density that allow for the barrel “drill” (reamer etc.) to walk off center fractions of a millimeter. Get a better barrel
Copper bullets = jump>velocity>powder>primer Lead core = velocity>powder>jump>primer Doesn't hold every time, but it does work most of the time. For 6.5 Creed, powder h4350 For .308 and most bullet weights, Varget. Grendel, between Tac and RL15 300 blk, h110 7 PRC, H1000
Please walk us through a load development process. What is your order of operations? Do you prioritize powder options or volume first? When do you consider seating depth changes?
Excellent video, I'd have to agree on all counts. I reload and I use factory. Depends on the rifle, how much I shoot it, and of course price. I have a couple rifles I don't shoot a lot, they really like certain factory ammo and when I can get that for a super good price I simply get enough to last years, more time to hand load the others. I also have at least a box or two from a couple manus for each caliber I simply use for baseline with a rifle that I'm hand loading for. I've also found that unless I want certain brass that some are far cheaper to buy loaded and hand load those after first firing. That's really about the cost of brass over # of expected firings but if it performs "ok" for the job at hand, why not. This also works well if that caliber is available as ammo but not as brass. I saw this a lot for a few calibers over the last couple years where I couldn't get the brass at all but I could get ammo for less than twice what it would cost me to reload it.
I reload for cost and accuracy, at least that's what got me started. But what I discovered was sitting in the office reloading took my mind off of daily stresses and current events as the only thing I was thinking about was getting everything right. That reloading press is therapeutic. The only thing I've found better is scuba diving and that's because there's near absolute silence with only the sound of your breathing.
Many decades ago I reloaded 44 Magnum rounds for the economics of it. I keep considering getting into reloading for my rifles but, so far, have been able to find factory ammo that works well enough. For example, using Hornady Precision Hunter ELD-X in my 6.5 Creedmoor bolt action with an 18.5" barrel, I am consistently shooting MOA or better out to 300 yards. As much as I hate the almost $50/box cost of that ammo, I don't cherish the initial investment of reloading equipment for the possible accuracy improvement. Great video, as always.
I typically have clients I am doing load development for start with a couple boxes of good factory ammo that is similar to what they want to shoot in the end. Something like hornady white box match or precision hunter. I record the velocity, COAL, and accuracy. Sometimes it’s as easy as matching the velocity of that load and messing around with seating depth. Either way I have had very good luck doing a 10 shot ladder test followed by a 20 round seating depth test using .030 , .060, .090 and .120 jumps
First rifle I bought after I turned 18 - a Herter's .243 Win off the used gun rack in 1984. I also bought a 20-rd box of factory ammo, a Lee Loader (I think it cost about $12), a couple boxes of primers, a 1lb can of powder, and a box each of 100gr Nosler Partitions and some sort of Speer boat tail bullets. A couple years later, I upgraded to a Lee Hand Press kit. After that first factory box, I only ever shot reloads in that rifle until 2015.
Read the first few dozen comments...... Outside neck turning combined with seating depth are my two points of focus for accuracy. Two Anecdotes to illustrate those tasks done: my 30-06 loads for my 1917 Enfield shot similar sized groups in a 1903A3 and a Ruger M77, thus indicating it was a mechanically better matched cartridge to various chambers than factory ammo. And, 6.5 Swede loads for my brother's rifle with its factory barrel were subMOA with the new barrel--the same load in essentially two different rifles. Again, signaling a better mechanical matching of the cartridge to the chamber. Bonus anecdote: loads for my Savage M112 in 338 Lap shot same ~1/2MOA from an acquaintance's M112. I'm convinced that figuring out your gun's best seating depth after neck sizing and neck turning will get most guns to shoot near MOA. Those production steps completed and the gun doesnt shoot well then stop using those salvaged "reclaimed" bullets and get a box of factory new ELDs or Matchkings, or Partitions. Keep the great videos coming, Jim.
Thirty years ago when I started reloading I was told not to get into it to save money but to get the most accuracy out of a particular load to rifle. It was a little bit cheaper in the long run but I understood what he was saying. It started out as a hobby and ended up an obsession. Most times I start off with reloads and most of my rifles have never fired a "tailor made" load and have all been reloads from hand picked components. Where I do usually save money is with the pistol caliber cartridges like 9mm, 380, 45 acp, 38 and 357; they are so expensive when all you need is about 5 grains of powder to make them go bang and hit the target at ten or twelve paces.
I reloaded in the early 80's until job and life took over my priorities. Now I'm retired and learning to say no so I'm looking get back to hunting and shooting. I still have my RCBS Rockchucker and dies for .44 Mag, 7MM Mag, .30-30, .357Mag.......dang I now I have to dig all that stuff up and get it organized and working.
Another large advantage to reloading is cleaning shooting rounds. I was working with a friend's Daniel Defense AR10 in 6.5 Creedmoor. The 140gr ELD Match factory loaded had a lot more carbon blow back than my handloads.
I've been handloading roughly 33 years. As posted already, one aspect about it was that it was cheaper and it's not anymore other than your're not loading 20 rounds of the same loads while testing. I went 25 years without buying factory ammo and found it more than satisfying filling tags with my ammo I worked up for every rifle. More recently, since Covid, I've been buying a ton of factory ammo because I was getting good prices through online auctions. Here's something I've seen just this year that has me rethinking all the custom rifles I've built and how I don't need them anymore other than I prefer the fit and finish: I bought a new Tikka stainless T3x in 300WM specifically to build a 7PRC. But since I was having so many great experiences with the Tikkas, both new and used, I figured I should at least see what this 300 would do before I disassembled it. By chance, I bought 180 Norma Bondstrike, and 150 Norma Whitetail factory ammo, and LOTS of both with same LOT numbers respectively. Boy am I glad I did. The Bondstrike will not group over 1/2" at 100 yards and the 150 grain Whitetail shoots 3 leaf clover groups barely over 1 hole. This rifle has had only TWO upgrades - aftermarket lighter trigger spring and Limbsaver recoil pad. That's it. This is one of SEVERAL nearly identical experiences with many Tikkas I've just purchased since May 2022. Ultimately, with 6 new Tikkas to me, both factory new and pre-owned, all have proven to shoot as well as any custom I've ever owned and I'm talking top tier components from Defiance Machine, Krieger, Bartlein, Brux, Hart, Lilja, Broughton, and Obermeyer barrels, McMillan and AG Composite stocks. Frankly, it's nuts when I think about the money I've spent striving for ultimate accuracy and all the while a $700 Tikka is all I've needed. In all fairness, most of the Tikkas do shoot slightly better with my handloads but a deer would never know out to 600 yards
It's amazing what $700 will get you these days. I wanted to restock a Savage 12FV in 6.5Cm I have but I was looking at $450to do the job. For $700 I got a Howa 1500 H7 Hera chassis rifle in the same caliber and it's putting my handloads into a 5 round 1/4" groups at 100 yards. Amazing.
My 300 dollar CVA Scout in 6.5 Creedmoor shoots .6MOA-5 shot groups with my hand loads. 3-shot groups .3-.4MOA at 100 yards. Most accurate “truck gun” I’ve owned, all because the ammo is tailored to the gun.
I think hand loading really shines is in odd/newer cartridges like 6.5 prc. 450 bushmaster is way over priced for what it is. I use 45 colt bullets and it much cheaper to shoot
I prefer handholding.As you stated,you may not find a suitable load in every weight or every bullet you want to try.If all you're going to do is hunt one animal,then yes,finding a good factory load and sticking with it is fine.But,if you hunt multiple species with the same gun and caliber then you're going to want different bullet weights and construction,and this is where handholding shines.I have seldom found a factory loading to shoot as good as my handloads.They do exist but are fewer and farther between.
Lot to lot variation is a thing with factory. Hand loading will match the hatch to steal a phrase. I have remade countless store bought rounds, giving them powder loads within 0.1grain, seating the round to the depth for the rifle, and in the case of one manufacturer; replacing three different primers and two powder types within one lot number.
People need to realize that buying a few different brands of ammo “to find what the new rifle likes” is merely blindly experimenting with velocity, bullet weights, and different seating depths. However, buying 3-4 boxes of factory ammo is going to be an expensive experiment these days. If you choose to do this, you have two options. Keep the bullet weights the same, or use 3-4 different bullet weights. One brand will definitely shoot better than all the others, but you will have no idea why. Was it the bullet weight, or the velocity? If you know a hand loader, you could get a base to ogive measurement on each brand of factory ammo and record that for future reference. Might be able to borrow a chronograph as well. Then you would know the velocity of the ammo brand that shot best.
Great video, spot on. Most reloaders are not all that good at it. But a good reloader definitely can load better ammunition with premium components. I do think this is one of your best videos.
Handloading is the way to go but if time is an issue and you have a few guns that shoot amazing like 1/2" moa it's hard to spend the time . Great video!!!
the thing with hand loading is that there is quite a few things that can go wrong, specially if you have a picky rifle. Luckily the two rifle I currently have (Tikka & Mauser m18) has very little issues, so I just have to make sure of consistency. But... My old browning in 270 only liked two or three kinds of bullets in 130gr
The biggest problem with factory ammo for my hunting rifles is the fact that you can’t always get what the rifle likes anymore. These shortages means you take what you find. And that sux.
I started rolling my own over thirty years ago. Back in the day, Black Hills Ammo did not exist. The only Source for precision match ammunition was federal gold medal match. Very pricey. Buying Sierra match bullets was a very economical alternative.
Excellent synopsis Jim. But I feel you may have left out one key element. That is, the role of the data books that reloaders use a guide when building their loads. Is it really much different than factory ammo if and when they follow the same data points?
I've been watching your videos. Very informative and I enjoy them. I have a question on another subject. A inexpensive spotting scope to see .223 shots at 100 yards. What would you recommend? Thank you, Jeff D
A couple of things that I have noticed are: Chamber length. Sammi specs have a tolerance of about 0,010" min/max, a match chamber will be on the short side of the tolerance. Most rifle manufactures will shoot for the middle of the spec, military rifles are manufactured on the long size because of dirt and debris entering the chamber on the battlefield. I have two 6.5 CMs my Tikka's chamber is 0.007" shorter than my Ruger American. Most competition shooters want the case to be 0.0015" to O.002" smaller than their chamber (typically called "bump"). Bullet manufacturers have to stay on the small end of the tolerance to insure the bolt will close on s small chamber. My Tikka is less picky, and I suspect this is why. The manufacturers fill the cases at high speed whereas a handloader can precisely weigh each charge.
I go back and forth on reloading. It was a lot cheaper a few years back when i started when you could get primers for 3 cents a piece and powder was easy to find too.
We have a local factory ammo in South Africa, PMP proam, but it is very scarce (Semi government owned company in South Africa..... Nuff said). The Ammo on the other hand is exceptional. If you can find any of it, grab it. It has a dual lead core with the bottom harder lead half locked into place with a ridge in the jacket. Excellent for competition and even better for hunting
I just picked up a box of Winchester (white box) 223, 55gr, FMJ and it was a tack driver out of my 14.5 barrel, sub MOA, I was surprized but have another type of ammo that I know will be accurate, that may depend on what the long term quality will bring.
My oldest son bought a new Howa in .308. Shooting off sandbags and using brand Fed ammo, we got 4-to-5 inch patterns at 100 yards. We checked everything: loose action screws, loose scope mounts, everything we could. Next trip to the range we shot handloads using the Hornady 165-gr SST bullets and a mid-range load of IMR 3031. Imagine our disappointment when we saw through binoculars he only hit the target once out of 5 shots, shooting off sandbags. But when we went to change the target, we saw all 5 shots were touching. We did chamfer the flash holes inside the case, but did nothing special for the reloads. Oh, and we used a Lee dipper set for charging the cases...scraped the dipper off level with a plastic card, and loaded up.
Started reloading a year ago. Glad I did. It was a big step, a lot of studying. I would recommend everyone just go buy a Hornady manual and go from there. I started after I got into 45-70. Still remember pulling the trigger on my first reload with my Henry. Had all my PPE on. Now I only shoot my 45-70 handloads. I will say that I’ve never really had any issues with factory ammunition but I can’t even find 100 yards to shoot at. I’m usually zeroed at 50.
I bought a load of Geco Zero cheap but only managed 4” groups til I pulled the bullets a touch with a collet puller and reseated to about 1/4” longer. Whether it was the new length or the change in tension I don’t know but now sub moa
Mate, I started hand loading in my youth for my dad's 303/25 and since then, every rifle I've owned has been hand loaded from day one. pretty sure I've never bought factory ammo for myself. I just love the process and it helps if you are a little bit OCD.
Nice video. Ages ago when I reloaded, I tried to achieve the best performance, accuracy and cost. My question was always, what combination of brass, primer, powder and bullet will give best performance for lowest cost. On the flip side, for competition, accuracy only was the goal, regardless of the cost. So, I liked your video, good job, sir.
I see a recipe of disaster in handloading for myself. Reason is what you mentioned in the beginning of the video. You can tweak this or tweak that. As a complete noob, how would I know what to tweak for a specific rifle? Trail and error?
Sometimes changing only one thing can have a magical effect. but it may take more than a few trips to the range. But, when you finally find that load that perfectly dials-in on your rifle, and cloverleafs a tiny group at 100 or more yards/meters... it'll make you smile !!! Overall length/ bullet seating depth is usually the place to start. But, yes, unfortunately, like cooking something new, it can take more than a few tries to get it right... just keep adding that pinch of salt. You'll get there. ( I originally did a much longer answer, but the jist of it is here.) Reloading can be a fairly pricey endeavor ... as much as buying a decent firearm in the first place. But it's a skill that you'll have forever, and it can be applied to almost every firearm you own ( not Rimfires, obviously).
When you buy a new rifle, regardless of manufacturer, make, caliber, etc. after you zero it you need to shoot a wide variety of factory ammo until you find one your rifle likes then stick with that. I am not sure the reasonings, I think it may have always been like that.
I agree sort of. I did that and had terrible game performance. I chose some deer season xp that grouped .65 of an inch. Hated bullet performance. Settled in federal fusion that grouped 1.5 but loved the game performance.
@@ChronicalsofAl for me I like tougher bullets. Dear season xp expands considerably and disenegrstes under 100 yards. Fusion is bonded. Expands. Stays tougher and punches through.
Absolutely but I don’t waste money buying different ammo. I get on UA-cam and watch videos of everyone else buying different ammo to narrow it down lol.
On the accuracy of the powder scales, I've tested two different digital scales by simply weighing the powder, then removing it from the scale and putting it back on, multiple times. Both were listed by numerous reviewers as "high accuracy", and both gave different weights to the exact same load on multiple weighings. Weights ranged from 21.3 to 21.7 on the exact same pile of powder when weighed more than once. That's literally impossible, so it's definitely a flaw in the digital scales I tested. The balance-beam analog scale I tested (I only have one) didn't have this issue at all. Same weight every time.
Thank you for posting this. I bought the Hornady G3 1500, and noticed the exact same thing. I thought it was a good and accurate one based on several reviews. I did the same testing where I'd measure the same load and get different readings just lifting it off the scale and putting it back. I felt kind of dumb returning it, but I don't regret it. Much happier with my beam scale.
I did extensive testing and developed a custom load for my rifle which shot a 0.17 MOA group. HOWEVER, using the same rifle with Hornady 143 Grain ELDX Precision Hunter "out of the box" I shot a 0.14 MOA group. Hornady PH is fantastic factory ammo!!!!!
I've been handloading for decades. I haven't bought any factory ammo in many years. I love the 'quiet time" it affords me and I really enjoy seeing the downrange results. I used to think 1 MOA was pretty good LOL. I typically see 1/2 MOA or better these days.
What you said about what those two rifles like to shoot got me to wondering... Is there a meaningful difference between factory match and factory non-match ammo? I mean, if it all comes down to what a particular rifle likes, then... In extremis, is it theoretically possible that a rifle could end up getting its best groups shooting something like standard Wolf or Remington UMC? For example, I bought a bunch of PPU 6.5x55 SPBT to shoot through my Tikka T3 Lite. I then thought I'd try to tighten my groups by trying Sellier & Bellot, and Lapua Scenar-L HPBT ammo. At 100 yards, my best group sizes were (1) PPU 0.625", (2) S&B 2", and (3) Lapua 0.75". I would have expected the Lapua to have the tightest groups over the non-match PPU, and the price difference is significant.
I have a 700 5r that will shoot anything MOA or better. From cold bore to strings. It did go to a smith before it came to me. I would do the same to any other bolt action I intend to buy. I recently installed a Triggertech trigger on it, so groups & consistency should improve even more!
Me and a buddy were out shooting to 600yds lastyear about 600rds over summer he has a ruger precision and i a bergara wilderness hmr. I was using all match and precision hunter while he was using 762×51 ball diging 4"×8" steel at 4,5,600yds. So when i realized this i to switched to aguila 762×51 ball and or norma $26-$30 per box and although we never shot paper for groups we both had no issues hitting the steel plates stated above.
If you got into reloading before covid & stock piled up powders & primers, cost wise & everything else you're good to go. But if you're just getting into it in the last 4 yrs, it's not worth it or if you didn't stock up before covid. I've looked into it & if I could get large rifle primers, the best price point I could get( using my once fired brass), is the same price per round as manufactured ammo for 30-06. As far as my 30-06 goes with accuracy with different brands, grains, & types it shoots them all 1 MOA or less, the only issue is it doesn't like to feed soft tips, being that's it's a semi auto.
I'm surprised you didn't mention how reloading and keeping that ammo with the gun that shot the cartridge helps too, since the shoulder has fire formed to that specific rifle, it doesn't have to waste pressure doing it again
I’ve been shooting factory ammo my whole life. But I’ve recently bought a nice RCBS reloading kit but I’ve yet to set it up. I’m getting all the components together.
I’ve been shooting for over 60 years. Today’s factory loads are so much better with consistency from lot to lot 8 out of 10. My calibers have been .22, 30.06, 5.56, .308 and most recently 6.5CM. The only caliber that drove me crazy was the 22 & 5.56 and the 5.56 was solved completely by the Wylde chambering and now it’s sub MOA out to 300yds. I must be lucky. I hand loaded for years but for the past 6 years the factory loads have been sub MOA for all my ammo 5.56 and above. The only one still “iffy” is .22. 😊 My rifles are mostly stock. Changed the barrel on my 5.56 and the triggers on all. Also .308 was in two rifle variations semi-auto AR10 and bolt action.
A lot of them use proprietary partner powders. For example hornady partnered with Hodgdon to make a specific proprietary powder for the .204 Ruger. A counter example, the first 6.5 Creedmoor ammo came with the load data on the box and listed H4350 right on the box.
I had a Winchester 70 Sporter in 223 Remington that shot six inch three-round patterns at 100 yards with factory ammo. I slapped together some cartridges using 55-grain FMJ and a local concern's smokeless powder and cut that to 2 1/2 inches for five rounds. Zero development; the minimum charge weight was 46 grains and the max was 52, so I set the powder measure to 48 and started loading. And yes, I am either obfuscating the charge weight or flat-out lying about it. A max charge of 3031 under a 55-grain Sierra boattail cut that to about 1 1/4 inch high by 1/2 inch wide. I suspect that a day where the wind wasn't gusting over my right shoulder would have reduced the vertical dispersion a bunch.
I TOTALLY agree on hand-loading! Hunters don’t want flyers. And neither does law enforcement when someone else’s life depends on it. I don’t care what I’m loading I measure powder for every round. Especially hand gun rounds. If a 38 special calls for 3.7 grains of powder I won’t settle for 3.6 or 3.8. I want that round to land in the same spot over and over again. 😊
Weird = Interesting. 25 Remington, 30 Remington, 32-20, 25-20, 8.15 x 46R, 7.5×54mm French, 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel, 338/284, 338 ME, 270 WSM, 38 S&W, 32 S&W Long, 7.5 x 55 Swiss, 30-30 Bolt Action, 6mm Remington, 220 Swift, 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, 8 x 56R, 22 K Hornet, 257 Weatherby, 9×23mm Largo, 41 Magnum, 35 Remington, 30-40 Krag, 264 Win Mag, 250/3000, 257 Roberts (in the 70s when you couldn't get it), 300 Savage with modern bullets, 303 British Hawk bullets, 25-06 100 gr TSX scorching velocity, 6 mm Creedmoor affordably, 6.5 x 54, 6.5 Arisaka, 6.5 x 55 Swedish, 6.5 Creedmoor 142 ABLR without taking out a mortgage, 45/70 Marlin Guide Gun Hard Cast Gas Check shoulder breakers, and many common calibers and oddballs I've forgotten. Without handloading, shooting isn't nearly as versatile and fun.
Like you I loaded for 30+ guns. Handgun and rifle. I had two competition benchrest rifles that would put 5 shots in one hole with monotonous regularity. I loved making a rifle shoot that I needed to adapt brass to a rifle. Also lead bullets. It was making them shoot their best that was the fun part for me. I had a book full of range notes. Some oddballs, 22R2 Lovell, 8x52R Siamese, 22PPC, 45-70 in Thai Mauser, 30-30 on Win M54, 22Hornet on Win M54, lots of obsolete military guns and many more. The fun for me was the handloading.
I started down the reloading rabbit hole with a 300 Blackout. When ammo was hard to find and expensive. I've never looked back and more than likely won't.
I'm on the fence. I have a 7mm rem mag Browning ABolt that averages 1.5-2.0 MOA with factory loads. I could try reloading to see if I can get it down to MOA, or I could use that money to buy a new rifle.
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why dont you do a video on the "browning boss" . nobody else has
You pretty much nailed it on the benefits of reloading Jim, only accurate rifles matter. Minute of deer at 200 yards is 😂😅. In addition to what you mentioned I like to deburr the flashhole, segregate cases by weight and check for concentricity of the seated projectile but I’m retired and enjoy reloading when the snow is up to my butt here in the Idaho mountains !
I've been reloading since I was a youth with my dad. After venturing out on my own and paying attention to the finite details and getting extra gadgets (they're so worth it), custom handloads are the only way I'll go for all the reasons you called out. Custom bullet, custom seating depth, the powder you use, and the precise grain amounts that you figure out that each rifle likes... It's a no-brainer and much more satisfying to me. Another great video, Sir!
I grew up learning to reload with my grandfather. 35 years later I still enjoy it. There’s something to be said about putting all the skills and time together. It makes what I feel is a true rifleman which is a rare breed nowadays.
ANNNNDDDD its not needed anymore...there is factory ammo out there that is WAY BETTER than most peoples handloads!!
@christopherbenfield7848 for thing I'm not most people! LOL
@@christopherbenfield7848 Again, not many people have bothered to learn the skills it takes to do it right. My original point stands true. Lol
I have been reloading for probably 35 years now. I really don't think you save any money reloading you just shoot a lot more and buy more reloading stuff after 35 years I'm still buying more reloading stuff. Tool heads for every pistol and rifle cartridge you load in high volume. 5 or 6 sets of dies for 25 or 30 different cartridges that load before you know it you are shooting to load instead of loading to shoot. It's not cheep but to me it's worth every penny I just enjoy doing it.
I have been reloading for over 50 years now and my nephew called me because he bought his first new rifle and thought it should be more accurate, I agreed. A trip to the range showed a number of concerns. Cleaning and technique were a couple of problems and we managed to tighten his groups up a little but his Patriot in 6.5 Creedmoor should have shot to 1moa at least. I took the rifle home and started load development. Long story short went from the 143's he was shooting and changed to 130's seated .030" out, blueprinted his brass, moved to a mid-load with still plenty of velocity with a known powder and resized his brass with a .003" bump to the shoulder. Out at the range that rifle put 5 rounds sub 3/4moa no problem. He was sold on handloading so I set him up with a used Lyman Spartan press, a set of Lee dies that were on sale, a electronic scale and all the other small pieces that you would need for $150, many pieces bought used at gun shows. He took my recipe and started cranking out his own ammo, he's hooked and saving a ton of money in ammo costs. A progressive press is nice and turns out fine ammo but if you're looking for accuracy a single stage press, holding charges to a 1/10gr variance and nit-picking detail is what's needed. My own heavy barreled Howa 1500 in 6.5Cm will put 5 rounds into 1/4moa if I do my part with my handloaded 123 ELDm's. All done off my RCll bought all those years ago.
I haven’t bought a round of factory ammo in years. Not only can I control every aspect of the ammunition I’m firing, I actually enjoy the whole load development process. Something about going to the range and seeing all the time and money you’ve spent showing up as a 1/4” group!
I at least buy factory ammo to build up a supply of brass. Then, if I luck out and catch lightning ⚡ in a bottle I stick with it! If not, which is usually the case, I begin the process of load development. Plus, I don't shoot near as much as I once did {due to $$$ and I rarely buy a new rifle - although I have had my eye on a 6.5 PRC
@@ChronicalsofAl after I wrote that, I realized that about a year ago I put together a 6mm creedmoor, and when ordering brass, I saw that Midway had Barnes 112 match burner loaded ammo on clearance for $21 a box. I was paying $1 a piece for brass anyway, so I bought 5 boxes of that. Still have 3 boxes that I never shot. The PRC cartridges have me thinking about a new rifle too, just not sure if I want 6.5, 7mm, or the 300!
I'm convinced that with the penetration of the "new" copper bullets the 6.5 is plenty of medicine for all deer and antelope short of moose. But then I remember how sweet my 243 is and how accurate it is and I get confused and do nothing. I'm not really a 7 guy and I have a 300RUM that is the "elk hammer" to my hunting group, shit - sounds like I need to sell some of these rifles!
I buy factory ammo for breaking in barrels and get on paper
Then you are missing out, there is some great factory ammo out there.
I'm Canadian and just filled my bull moose tag this year, used a .308 Win Federal Trophy Copper 165 grain. I know my rifle likes it, I've been using it for years and my safe is filled with dozens of boxes.
@@westhompson574 My dozens of boxes isn't limited by a law. Canada has terrible gun laws, but that doesn't excuse you just assuming things or making up nonsense in your mind.
I have 45 boxes in my safe, that's 900 rounds of just .308.
@@westhompson574 What is the difference you're talking about? I could have hundreds of boxes if I wanted. Literally you're just making up garbage in your mind.
There's enough problems with Canada's terrible gun laws. That doesn't permit you to just make up lies or nonsense in your mind.
I'm not offended by anything you say, but I can still call you out for lying about stuff.
@@westhompson574 Seriously, what are you blathering on about? I have dozens of boxes of 30-06 and I'm Texan.
@@westhompson574your comment doesn’t even make sense!
I’ve been reloading for awhile now, and agree with you about charging for your time for something you love to do. As for the cost, I just figured that the first bullet that I made and shot cost me $1,000, and from then on the cost of the equipment was free. That was one expensive round. Lol
One more thing I feel should be taken into consideration when discussing factory ammunition: Inconsistencies across different lot numbers.
You might buy Hornady match and it shoots great out of your rifle. And the next batch you pick up is a different lot number and now you’re shooting XX fps slower on average and group size increased by XX%
Forget which podcast it was on, but there was a rep from Federal on there that mentioned Federal uses several different recipes that fall within similar performance based on component availability.
I have been handloading for more than 50 years and love it as a hobby. It allows me to shoot more with better results, any time, and I do not worry about ammo shortages or crazy prices. Great video.
I’m both. If I can catch factory ammo at a good price, I get it, particularly XM193 (5.56). Then I use that brass to reload. I’ve also purchased several hundred once-fired Lake City brass. You have to clean, Polish, and deprime them, but it’s worth it in the long run. When I reload, I don’t weight every charge. I normally weight every third charge. I use a Lee Perfect Powder Measure.
100% perfect. Here is an idea if you can accomplish it.
Get 2 or 3 identical rifles but maybe a year apart on date manufactured shoot them for percision with hand loading bet they are different on the load to accomplish the same result...
Last thought on the video some people ONLY shoot 100yards and a 4inch group kills there target and so most ammo shoots great ( more power too them ) others shoot a thousand yards shooting a 1inch group.
We are all different do what's best for you but the knowledge of knowing some of this stuff can't hurt
I enjoy hand loading and even more at the range when I see positive results from something I made myself. Just wish powder and primers were easier to get so I could try more varieties. I haven't been able to branch out and try other things due to intermittent supply of components so I am sticking to what I know is working. Eventually that should change for the better. Great video once again, always happy to see a new Backfire video get posted.
When I buy a new gun I buy every box of ammo in that calibre the local store has. I test each make and use that as primary.
I don't shoot enough to warrant the purchase of $1800aud worth of reloading gear, plus consumables. That's a LOT of factory ammo!
MOA is good enough for what I do. I think there's hunting accuracy and range accuracy... Horses for courses.
Yet another great video mate.
Agreed with most everything. I've handloaded my own ammo since 2000. Been nice on those years where ammo was short in the stores and I was able to keep up with my shooting habits. The one thing I've realized about reloading is how much I love tinkering with it. Messing with seating depth, powder, bullet selection, and a handful of other things keeps me entertained and helps make me practice that much more. I'm also cheap so I wouldn't shoot nearly as often nor as much if I was spending 400 bucks buying ammo regularly :)
I've been hand loading for 3 years (got started during covid). I've loaded somewhere around 300 - 400 rounds so far, for 2 different cartridges (30-06 and 7mm-08), and have worked up a few different draft loads for each cartridge. I think I finally have 1 recipie that I plan to stick with. I think I can safetly say that I fall in the group of "most handloders" described that maybe I can't beat factory ammo, or am just starting to, but... I have learned a ton about ballistics, terminal performance, bullet construction, torque settings and scopes in that time, and i have shot way more annually than I ever did before, so my shooting skills have increased a ton. I feel like I have gotten more things wrong along the way than I have gotten right. But I have learned a ton from those experiences and I hope that trend is starting to change. Plus, last fall, my son and I both killed mulies with cartridges I loaded... now that was cool! So, I'm going to keep doing it.
Another consideration- at least for me- is comfort. I have a Henry 45-70 i shoot for fun. With factory loads, I can’t shoot one box in a day. But I’ve been reloading with a lighter powder charge that seems to have no negative impact up to 100 yards and I can shoot more of those since they are easier on my shoulder.
On the other hand, I also reload for my Howa .223 bolt action for accuracy and repeatability.
While I didn’t evaluate costs to the same extent you did, my calculations showed that there hasn’t been a significant cost difference since prices came down last year. I don’t factor in my time because I enjoy reloading and I completely agree with your surfboard analogy.
That is a hard question to answer. While I do reload, it is mainly for volume to save money. For instance a friend brought me an ammo can full of pulled 30-06 military 150 grain FMJ projectiles. He thought that perhaps I could develop a 300 Black Out plinking load. I took the time and put together a load testing different powder amounts to find just the right grain for two different rifles. I used a Ruger American Ranch bolt action and an AR15 that I had put together. Surprisingly, both rifles liked the same combination giving me sub MOA groups. So now I have hundreds of pieces of brass to work with, plenty of small rifle primers and a boat load of free projectiles. I can easily load six or seven hundred rounds for very little cost and for nothing more than plinking. I used to buy five to 10 boxes a week of S&B 300 Black Out for about eleven bucks per box of 20, but those days are long gone. The reloading looks a lot better now in order to save me some money on rebuilding my cache of shooting ammo for this cartridge.
Factory ammo might suck, but without primers we cant reload. I just bought at box of 10 338 Lapua and paid $80.00 per box. $8.00 each!
Good point
A good idea for a video would be weapon care, favorite solvents,oils,brushes, etc. maybe your favorite system of how you do it, keeping that pesky light surface rust off, clean glass.
Barrel harmonics are the key. Playing with the speed will move the nodal point to the end of the barrel and shrink the group. Sometimes you get lucky with off the shelf and sometimes you have to make your own.
While back Hornady had an explosion in what the media reported was their "Primer production division". Since there are no Hornady primers commercially available, this means they are producing their own primers for their ammo.
Not to rag on Hornady, but these were the results I noticed.
The factory ELD-X was showing up to 77 ES where the same barrel with hand loaded ELD-X were closer to 20.
Lapua brass, CCi BR4 primers, 4350 all replace whatever Hornady used or created in their facility.
I own an AMP annealer, it uses an Aztec mode to measure brass thickness and consistency in order to set it specifically to your brass. Using factory Hornady brass the annealer will give you 3 different measurements across 3 different brass from the same lot, by comparison it gives the same measure for multiple lapua brass.
Going with the Lapua small primer brass (6.5) may also give you better chance of finding primers as opposed to reloading the factory brass with large primers.
You are so right about scales, I bit the bullet and spent the 500 dollars for the quality and the accuracy is amazing. Gavin at ultimate reloader is a greater resource. The scale is an A&D EJ-54D2. So happy with it. Get a quality resizing die like the ones from short action customs, and seating die by Redding. Learn to measure and adjust your dies for your rifles headspace, and seating depth to your rifles lands and grooves, and you’ll surpass factory. I read and used the book “Top Grade Ammo” by Zediker it helps a lot when moving from being able to make a cartridge to making precision rounds.
I hand load. I'm 73 and it's a great winter past time. Big money saver ! 59 gr vmax for plinking and 90 cold Berger for hunting. Love my 243 versatility and FRIENDLY FIRE. Keep up with the true stuff 👍
I'm getting back into reloading after 5 years of not doing it. I'm very excited to get everything going again. I'm one of those that geek out over all the gadgets and go way over board buying stuff. My main concern with starting back is finding primers at a decent cost. I've already been unable to locate large rifle primers for my 6.5 creedmoor.
@@danielrouw2593 looks like I'm going to have to go that route. I've got tons of small rifle primers were I used to reload 5.56. Hopefully they're still good. They're probably 7 or 8 years old.
@@Kentucky.Tactical , I recently loaded 100 rounds of 9mm with primers that were 30 years old (Clinton era) and they all fired, cycled the action and were accurate. They had been stored in a cool dry place in their factory cartons for all those years. About a week ago I was in the new Scheels sporting goods store in Chandler Arizona and they had shelves of primers $60 to $80 per 1000, no limit. Didn’t see any magnum primers though.
@@jons5898 I had mine stored in the original containers in a plastic tote. You give me hope though. I'll find out soon enough.
I just came back from a trip up and down the eastern seaboard, primers are starting to show up in stores at $70/thousand. Twice what I used to spend but better than $125. Check the large gun shops, Sportsmen's Warehouse had them and Hiatt's in Charlotte had 6'x6'x 5' piles of primers including full cases, any size. Powder is what now has jumped in price but at least it's out there.
$15.00 for a hundred large rifle primers.
I’ve gotten good results with factory in certain rifles and I remember in the past laughing how much equipment, components and time it takes for handloaders. But since becoming a handloader, first in pistol, now in rifle as well, I couldn’t imagine shooting with out doing it.
Great discussion on shooting factory ammo vs handloading,I believe there is a place for both approaches
You are right. Many don't have access to reloading and factory ammo sure has its place in this case.
COL is the biggest advantage to hand loads, the biggest mistake many hand loaders make is not using a chronograph.
Love the video Jim! I have wanted to start hand loading since I retired 3 years ago. However I have not purchased any tools to do so yet as I can’t find primers! Haven’t seen a large rifle primer for sale in 3 years. Powder is only now becoming available for internet purchases and hazmat fees make it so expensive. Local stores are always stripped of powder here in southeast US. Just can’t find components in my area! It’s aggravating!
This was a great video. I'm a reloader and it's my hobby. Started out in 78' when I was a poor enlisted with a $12 Lee Handloader kit (still have it). Love every aspect of reloading, even case prep which I find relaxing. I have saved thousands by reloading and it has payed off all my equipment. But like you elegantly said, the ability to get the best accuracy in your gun is priceless.
I haven’t gone down the rabbit hole of hand loading yet but I do have 2 questions.
1. In general, will what woks best in one rifle (Ex. Your Sig Cross in 6.5 Creedmoor) work nearly as well in another Sig Cross in 6.5 Creedmoor? In other words, in general, will what works in one gun that is the same model and caliber work about as well in a different gun that is the same model and caliber.
2. Will the best seating depth change over time as the chamber gets shot out? Another way to say this is as the distance to the beginning of the rifling changes with use do you need to change the seating depth of the bullet to try and keep the jump to the rifling the same?
I love your channel. Keep up the great work and please keep sharing your knowledge and experience
Handloading for a higher quality bullet without spending 80-100 dollars for a box of ammo. Secondary reason is the enjoyment of the DIY part.
Anyone remember ammo shortages? I reload and have yet to ever experience an ammo shortage. That's because I buy the components in bulk when they are both available and affordable. Not long ago powder and primers were in short supply and the rules of supply & demand caused huge spikes in prices. Components have returned to a more sane level price wise with availabilty rising so stock up while you can. Oh yea, my handloads are always more accurate than the factory, especially when you figure in barrel life/throat erosion. You'll constantly have to chase done new factory loads as your barrel wears. It's better to do that handloading IMO.
I sure remember primer shortages! Not such a shortage now, but the price of reloading has skyrocketed. Locally, a hundred large rifle primers are $15.00. Gouging bastards they are.
I know there are lots of good reloaders, but I tend to run into one of two types. 1. Bubba handgun reloaders that reuse brass too many times or use bad recipes. 2. The rifle guy that thinks he knows better and can create some high pressure miracle round. These are the guys that blow up guns, get hit in the eye with a scope, have black and blue shoulders.
I would also argue that most reloaders biggest enemy is neck tension. Lack of proper annealing and a good resizing setup such as a bushing die and mandrel process. Short Action Customs sizing dies are the only ones I’ve seen do both in one step
I wanted to take a moment to just tell you that I watch a lot of you content and I find it very useful. I apricate all the information you share, especially the the reviews. Its very difficult to make purchasing decisions these days especially when it come to purchasing a new rifle, pistol, scopes, and so on. I mean lets face it, until you actually have one in your hands, cranking out rounds down range there's really not a way to know if it's even a good fit. With that said, keep up the good work! I certainly like what your doing! Thanks!!
One big mystery, IMO, is: What is the MAGIC in Federal GMM that makes it shoot GREAT in virtually any gun?
Really. My POF P308 SPR AR-10 shoots .6 moa with Federal 168gr GMM.
I can’t remember what podcast it was, but I remember someone tried to explain it as having to do with the components and the internal ballistics being in harmony. I’m sure I’m wrong about that phrasing, but that’s sounds right and hopefully gets the point across.
@ja0298 you are correct, listening to some really experienced reloaders, (not me) there are some factory loads that really are that good. For loads like GMM, quality control probably goes a long way too. I've heard people say that if a 308 win. won't shoot with a near max charge of Imr4895 and a 168 OTM, the barrel is probably broken. I tried it and sure enough, it shot extremely well in my rifle.
According to the Marine Corps publication that replaced the M-118LR….which is now AB-39 Mk-316 mod 0, it’s
Federal brass
42.0 grains of IMR-4064
175 Gr Sierra Boat Tail Hollowpoint
Federal 210 primer
Be sure to anneal every time, headspace and seat it correctly. It’s all I shoot in my .308 rifles.
Semper
USMC / Retired
@@MountaintravelerEddie Great info. Thanks! I wouldn't have guessed it used IMR 4064. I would have thought something slower burning. I'm gonna try it, actually.
Ive talked to people that have loaded their whole life. Even they tell me reloading isnt cheaper and factory loads these days are just about as consistent these days.
I don't remember all the details in the past, but did you ever try reloading for that Mossberg rifle you hated? Just curious. Our 308 Mossberg is kind of picky, but we found a good load for it eventually.
I'm factory ammo I'm afraid. Only because here in Ireland reloading isn't currently allowed unless you go do it in one or 2 places in the country. Silly but it might change in the future.
I'd love to reload though... The thoughts of being able to do hunting/shooting stuff at home in the warm sounds great. Plus geeking out on all the different combos to get something my rifle likes seems very satisfying.
I just picked up a Bergara wilderness ridge in 300 win mag a few weeks ago. Tried 7 different factory loads before I found what it really likes. Most shoot 2 to 3in groups, then I tried American whitetail 150gr. Biggest group so far 1.06 at a hundred yards, 5 shot groups.
Good to know. The ammo Bergara uses at the factory for accuracy testing is Sig Sauer 190 Gr. OTM Marksman Elite, and Norma 180 gr. Oryx
That American whitetail seems to get good marks across the board.
@@backfire Tried some 165gr. sig Elite Performance copper shot 2'' groups, can't find any Norma. All brands were 180gr. except the sig and whitetail.
Would love to know what makes a picky gun...picky. i would avoid them like a Biden speech
Tight chamber tolerances, fluted chambers, amount of freebore, gas systems, barrel twist rate, barrel crowning, overall firearm component configurations( especially in autoloaders.
@@danielrouw25931/14 twist is super slow. All of my 223/556 rifles are between 1/9 to 1/7.
@@GymJones865 yes it’s pretty common nowadays that 223 rifles will be between 1/7 and 1/9 but back in the day 223 was really only looked at as a varmint caliber so light and fast as possible was the name of the game and most 223 rifles were 1/12 or 1/14. Even the first m16’s had 1/12 twist barrels
Are you serious about a Biden Speech? They are comedy gold.
“Dog faced pony soldier “.
Commercial manufactured barrels have micro variations in metal density that allow for the barrel “drill” (reamer etc.) to walk off center fractions of a millimeter. Get a better barrel
The man isn't lying, hand loading is pretty good, and seating depth is one of the big improvement changes a person can make.
Copper bullets = jump>velocity>powder>primer
Lead core = velocity>powder>jump>primer
Doesn't hold every time, but it does work most of the time.
For 6.5 Creed, powder h4350
For .308 and most bullet weights, Varget.
Grendel, between Tac and RL15
300 blk, h110
7 PRC, H1000
Please walk us through a load development process. What is your order of operations? Do you prioritize powder options or volume first? When do you consider seating depth changes?
Excellent video, I'd have to agree on all counts. I reload and I use factory. Depends on the rifle, how much I shoot it, and of course price. I have a couple rifles I don't shoot a lot, they really like certain factory ammo and when I can get that for a super good price I simply get enough to last years, more time to hand load the others. I also have at least a box or two from a couple manus for each caliber I simply use for baseline with a rifle that I'm hand loading for. I've also found that unless I want certain brass that some are far cheaper to buy loaded and hand load those after first firing. That's really about the cost of brass over # of expected firings but if it performs "ok" for the job at hand, why not. This also works well if that caliber is available as ammo but not as brass. I saw this a lot for a few calibers over the last couple years where I couldn't get the brass at all but I could get ammo for less than twice what it would cost me to reload it.
Hey Jim, I have the same B-14 ridge and I would love to know what federal ammo it likes? Thank you!
I reload for cost and accuracy, at least that's what got me started. But what I discovered was sitting in the office reloading took my mind off of daily stresses and current events as the only thing I was thinking about was getting everything right. That reloading press is therapeutic. The only thing I've found better is scuba diving and that's because there's near absolute silence with only the sound of your breathing.
Many decades ago I reloaded 44 Magnum rounds for the economics of it. I keep considering getting into reloading for my rifles but, so far, have been able to find factory ammo that works well enough. For example, using Hornady Precision Hunter ELD-X in my 6.5 Creedmoor bolt action with an 18.5" barrel, I am consistently shooting MOA or better out to 300 yards. As much as I hate the almost $50/box cost of that ammo, I don't cherish the initial investment of reloading equipment for the possible accuracy improvement. Great video, as always.
I typically have clients I am doing load development for start with a couple boxes of good factory ammo that is similar to what they want to shoot in the end. Something like hornady white box match or precision hunter. I record the velocity, COAL, and accuracy. Sometimes it’s as easy as matching the velocity of that load and messing around with seating depth. Either way I have had very good luck doing a 10 shot ladder test followed by a 20 round seating depth test using .030 , .060, .090 and .120 jumps
First rifle I bought after I turned 18 - a Herter's .243 Win off the used gun rack in 1984. I also bought a 20-rd box of factory ammo, a Lee Loader (I think it cost about $12), a couple boxes of primers, a 1lb can of powder, and a box each of 100gr Nosler Partitions and some sort of Speer boat tail bullets. A couple years later, I upgraded to a Lee Hand Press kit. After that first factory box, I only ever shot reloads in that rifle until 2015.
Read the first few dozen comments...... Outside neck turning combined with seating depth are my two points of focus for accuracy. Two Anecdotes to illustrate those tasks done: my 30-06 loads for my 1917 Enfield shot similar sized groups in a 1903A3 and a Ruger M77, thus indicating it was a mechanically better matched cartridge to various chambers than factory ammo. And, 6.5 Swede loads for my brother's rifle with its factory barrel were subMOA with the new barrel--the same load in essentially two different rifles. Again, signaling a better mechanical matching of the cartridge to the chamber. Bonus anecdote: loads for my Savage M112 in 338 Lap shot same ~1/2MOA from an acquaintance's M112. I'm convinced that figuring out your gun's best seating depth after neck sizing and neck turning will get most guns to shoot near MOA. Those production steps completed and the gun doesnt shoot well then stop using those salvaged "reclaimed" bullets and get a box of factory new ELDs or Matchkings, or Partitions.
Keep the great videos coming, Jim.
Thirty years ago when I started reloading I was told not to get into it to save money but to get the most accuracy out of a particular load to rifle. It was a little bit cheaper in the long run but I understood what he was saying. It started out as a hobby and ended up an obsession. Most times I start off with reloads and most of my rifles have never fired a "tailor made" load and have all been reloads from hand picked components. Where I do usually save money is with the pistol caliber cartridges like 9mm, 380, 45 acp, 38 and 357; they are so expensive when all you need is about 5 grains of powder to make them go bang and hit the target at ten or twelve paces.
I reloaded in the early 80's until job and life took over my priorities. Now I'm retired and learning to say no so I'm looking get back to hunting and shooting. I still have my RCBS Rockchucker and dies for .44 Mag, 7MM Mag, .30-30, .357Mag.......dang I now I have to dig all that stuff up and get it organized and working.
Another large advantage to reloading is cleaning shooting rounds. I was working with a friend's Daniel Defense AR10 in 6.5 Creedmoor. The 140gr ELD Match factory loaded had a lot more carbon blow back than my handloads.
I've been handloading roughly 33 years. As posted already, one aspect about it was that it was cheaper and it's not anymore other than your're not loading 20 rounds of the same loads while testing. I went 25 years without buying factory ammo and found it more than satisfying filling tags with my ammo I worked up for every rifle. More recently, since Covid, I've been buying a ton of factory ammo because I was getting good prices through online auctions. Here's something I've seen just this year that has me rethinking all the custom rifles I've built and how I don't need them anymore other than I prefer the fit and finish:
I bought a new Tikka stainless T3x in 300WM specifically to build a 7PRC. But since I was having so many great experiences with the Tikkas, both new and used, I figured I should at least see what this 300 would do before I disassembled it. By chance, I bought 180 Norma Bondstrike, and 150 Norma Whitetail factory ammo, and LOTS of both with same LOT numbers respectively. Boy am I glad I did. The Bondstrike will not group over 1/2" at 100 yards and the 150 grain Whitetail shoots 3 leaf clover groups barely over 1 hole. This rifle has had only TWO upgrades - aftermarket lighter trigger spring and Limbsaver recoil pad. That's it. This is one of SEVERAL nearly identical experiences with many Tikkas I've just purchased since May 2022. Ultimately, with 6 new Tikkas to me, both factory new and pre-owned, all have proven to shoot as well as any custom I've ever owned and I'm talking top tier components from Defiance Machine, Krieger, Bartlein, Brux, Hart, Lilja, Broughton, and Obermeyer barrels, McMillan and AG Composite stocks. Frankly, it's nuts when I think about the money I've spent striving for ultimate accuracy and all the while a $700 Tikka is all I've needed.
In all fairness, most of the Tikkas do shoot slightly better with my handloads but a deer would never know out to 600 yards
It's amazing what $700 will get you these days. I wanted to restock a Savage 12FV in 6.5Cm I have but I was looking at $450to do the job. For $700 I got a Howa 1500 H7 Hera chassis rifle in the same caliber and it's putting my handloads into a 5 round 1/4" groups at 100 yards. Amazing.
@@hardball107 NICE
My 300 dollar CVA Scout in 6.5 Creedmoor shoots .6MOA-5 shot groups with my hand loads. 3-shot groups .3-.4MOA at 100 yards. Most accurate “truck gun” I’ve owned, all because the ammo is tailored to the gun.
I think hand loading really shines is in odd/newer cartridges like 6.5 prc. 450 bushmaster is way over priced for what it is. I use 45 colt bullets and it much cheaper to shoot
I prefer handholding.As you stated,you may not find a suitable load in every weight or every bullet you want to try.If all you're going to do is hunt one animal,then yes,finding a good factory load and sticking with it is fine.But,if you hunt multiple species with the same gun and caliber then you're going to want different bullet weights and construction,and this is where handholding shines.I have seldom found a factory loading to shoot as good as my handloads.They do exist but are fewer and farther between.
Lot to lot variation is a thing with factory. Hand loading will match the hatch to steal a phrase. I have remade countless store bought rounds, giving them powder loads within 0.1grain, seating the round to the depth for the rifle, and in the case of one manufacturer; replacing three different primers and two powder types within one lot number.
Great info. I enjoy all of your write ups. Took your advice on scopes and trust your judgment.
People need to realize that buying a few different brands of ammo “to find what the new rifle likes” is merely blindly experimenting with velocity, bullet weights, and different seating depths. However, buying 3-4 boxes of factory ammo is going to be an expensive experiment these days. If you choose to do this, you have two options. Keep the bullet weights the same, or use 3-4 different bullet weights. One brand will definitely shoot better than all the others, but you will have no idea why. Was it the bullet weight, or the velocity? If you know a hand loader, you could get a base to ogive measurement on each brand of factory ammo and record that for future reference. Might be able to borrow a chronograph as well. Then you would know the velocity of the ammo brand that shot best.
Great video, spot on. Most reloaders are not all that good at it. But a good reloader definitely can load better ammunition with premium components. I do think this is one of your best videos.
Awesome running into you in person tonight, love the video!
Handloading is the way to go but if time is an issue and you have a few guns that shoot amazing like 1/2" moa it's hard to spend the time . Great video!!!
the thing with hand loading is that there is quite a few things that can go wrong, specially if you have a picky rifle. Luckily the two rifle I currently have (Tikka & Mauser m18) has very little issues, so I just have to make sure of consistency. But... My old browning in 270 only liked two or three kinds of bullets in 130gr
The biggest problem with factory ammo for my hunting rifles is the fact that you can’t always get what the rifle likes anymore. These shortages means you take what you find. And that sux.
I started rolling my own over thirty years ago. Back in the day, Black Hills Ammo did not exist. The only Source for precision match ammunition was federal gold medal match. Very pricey.
Buying Sierra match bullets was a very economical alternative.
Excellent synopsis Jim. But I feel you may have left out one key element. That is, the role of the data books that reloaders use a guide when building their loads. Is it really much different than factory ammo if and when they follow the same data points?
I've been watching your videos. Very informative and I enjoy them.
I have a question on another subject. A inexpensive spotting scope to see .223 shots at 100 yards.
What would you recommend?
Thank you,
Jeff D
Being a commercial reloader, i love it you can load all sorts of werid stuff
A couple of things that I have noticed are:
Chamber length. Sammi specs have a tolerance of about 0,010" min/max, a match chamber will be on the short side of the tolerance. Most rifle manufactures will shoot for the middle of the spec, military rifles are manufactured on the long size because of dirt and debris entering the chamber on the battlefield. I have two 6.5 CMs my Tikka's chamber is 0.007" shorter than my Ruger American. Most competition shooters want the case to be 0.0015" to O.002" smaller than their chamber (typically called "bump"). Bullet manufacturers have to stay on the small end of the tolerance to insure the bolt will close on s small chamber. My Tikka is less picky, and I suspect this is why.
The manufacturers fill the cases at high speed whereas a handloader can precisely weigh each charge.
I go back and forth on reloading. It was a lot cheaper a few years back when i started when you could get primers for 3 cents a piece and powder was easy to find too.
We have a local factory ammo in South Africa, PMP proam, but it is very scarce (Semi government owned company in South Africa..... Nuff said). The Ammo on the other hand is exceptional. If you can find any of it, grab it. It has a dual lead core with the bottom harder lead half locked into place with a ridge in the jacket. Excellent for competition and even better for hunting
I just picked up a box of Winchester (white box) 223, 55gr, FMJ and it was a tack driver out of my 14.5 barrel, sub MOA, I was surprized but have another type of ammo that I know will be accurate, that may depend on what the long term quality will bring.
My oldest son bought a new Howa in .308. Shooting off sandbags and using brand Fed ammo, we got 4-to-5 inch patterns at 100 yards. We checked everything: loose action screws, loose scope mounts, everything we could. Next trip to the range we shot handloads using the Hornady 165-gr SST bullets and a mid-range load of IMR 3031. Imagine our disappointment when we saw through binoculars he only hit the target once out of 5 shots, shooting off sandbags. But when we went to change the target, we saw all 5 shots were touching. We did chamfer the flash holes inside the case, but did nothing special for the reloads.
Oh, and we used a Lee dipper set for charging the cases...scraped the dipper off level with a plastic card, and loaded up.
Started reloading a year ago. Glad I did. It was a big step, a lot of studying. I would recommend everyone just go buy a Hornady manual and go from there. I started after I got into 45-70. Still remember pulling the trigger on my first reload with my Henry. Had all my PPE on. Now I only shoot my 45-70 handloads. I will say that I’ve never really had any issues with factory ammunition but I can’t even find 100 yards to shoot at. I’m usually zeroed at 50.
I bought a load of Geco Zero cheap but only managed 4” groups til I pulled the bullets a touch with a collet puller and reseated to about 1/4” longer. Whether it was the new length or the change in tension I don’t know but now sub moa
Mate, I started hand loading in my youth for my dad's 303/25 and since then, every rifle I've owned has been hand loaded from day one. pretty sure I've never bought factory ammo for myself. I just love the process and it helps if you are a little bit OCD.
Nice video. Ages ago when I reloaded, I tried to achieve the best performance, accuracy and cost. My question was always, what combination of brass, primer, powder and bullet will give best performance for lowest cost. On the flip side, for competition, accuracy only was the goal, regardless of the cost. So, I liked your video, good job, sir.
I see a recipe of disaster in handloading for myself. Reason is what you mentioned in the beginning of the video. You can tweak this or tweak that. As a complete noob, how would I know what to tweak for a specific rifle? Trail and error?
Yes, trial and error. Getting a good set of calipers and precision oal tools are a good start.
Don’t forget that all important reloading manual 😅
Sometimes changing only one thing can have a magical effect. but it may take more than a few trips to the range.
But, when you finally find that load that perfectly dials-in on your rifle, and cloverleafs a tiny group at 100 or more yards/meters... it'll make you smile !!!
Overall length/ bullet seating depth is usually the place to start.
But, yes, unfortunately, like cooking something new, it can take more than a few tries to get it right... just keep adding that pinch of salt. You'll get there.
( I originally did a much longer answer, but the jist of it is here.)
Reloading can be a fairly pricey endeavor ... as much as buying a decent firearm in the first place. But it's a skill that you'll have forever, and it can be applied to almost every firearm you own ( not Rimfires, obviously).
When you buy a new rifle, regardless of manufacturer, make, caliber, etc. after you zero it you need to shoot a wide variety of factory ammo until you find one your rifle likes then stick with that. I am not sure the reasonings, I think it may have always been like that.
I agree sort of. I did that and had terrible game performance. I chose some deer season xp that grouped .65 of an inch. Hated bullet performance. Settled in federal fusion that grouped 1.5 but loved the game performance.
@@mr.mr.3301what was the problem with the one that grouped .65"?
@@ChronicalsofAl for me I like tougher bullets. Dear season xp expands considerably and disenegrstes under 100 yards. Fusion is bonded. Expands. Stays tougher and punches through.
Absolutely but I don’t waste money buying different ammo. I get on UA-cam and watch videos of everyone else buying different ammo to narrow it down lol.
@@mr.mr.3301 is deer season xp norma or Winchester??
On the accuracy of the powder scales, I've tested two different digital scales by simply weighing the powder, then removing it from the scale and putting it back on, multiple times. Both were listed by numerous reviewers as "high accuracy", and both gave different weights to the exact same load on multiple weighings. Weights ranged from 21.3 to 21.7 on the exact same pile of powder when weighed more than once. That's literally impossible, so it's definitely a flaw in the digital scales I tested. The balance-beam analog scale I tested (I only have one) didn't have this issue at all. Same weight every time.
Thank you for posting this. I bought the Hornady G3 1500, and noticed the exact same thing. I thought it was a good and accurate one based on several reviews. I did the same testing where I'd measure the same load and get different readings just lifting it off the scale and putting it back. I felt kind of dumb returning it, but I don't regret it. Much happier with my beam scale.
Yes agreed, the beam scale is superior .
I did extensive testing and developed a custom load for my rifle which shot a 0.17 MOA group. HOWEVER, using the same rifle with Hornady 143 Grain ELDX Precision Hunter "out of the box" I shot a 0.14 MOA group. Hornady PH is fantastic factory ammo!!!!!
I've been handloading for decades. I haven't bought any factory ammo in many years. I love the 'quiet time" it affords me and I really enjoy seeing the downrange results. I used to think 1 MOA was pretty good LOL. I typically see 1/2 MOA or better these days.
What you said about what those two rifles like to shoot got me to wondering... Is there a meaningful difference between factory match and factory non-match ammo? I mean, if it all comes down to what a particular rifle likes, then... In extremis, is it theoretically possible that a rifle could end up getting its best groups shooting something like standard Wolf or Remington UMC? For example, I bought a bunch of PPU 6.5x55 SPBT to shoot through my Tikka T3 Lite. I then thought I'd try to tighten my groups by trying Sellier & Bellot, and Lapua Scenar-L HPBT ammo. At 100 yards, my best group sizes were (1) PPU 0.625", (2) S&B 2", and (3) Lapua 0.75". I would have expected the Lapua to have the tightest groups over the non-match PPU, and the price difference is significant.
I have a 700 5r that will shoot anything MOA or better. From cold bore to strings. It did go to a smith before it came to me. I would do the same to any other bolt action I intend to buy. I recently installed a Triggertech trigger on it, so groups & consistency should improve even more!
This is what my tikka does
Me and a buddy were out shooting to 600yds lastyear about 600rds over summer he has a ruger precision and i a bergara wilderness hmr. I was using all match and precision hunter while he was using 762×51 ball diging 4"×8" steel at 4,5,600yds. So when i realized this i to switched to aguila 762×51 ball and or norma $26-$30 per box and although we never shot paper for groups we both had no issues hitting the steel plates stated above.
If you got into reloading before covid & stock piled up powders & primers, cost wise & everything else you're good to go. But if you're just getting into it in the last 4 yrs, it's not worth it or if you didn't stock up before covid.
I've looked into it & if I could get large rifle primers, the best price point I could get( using my once fired brass), is the same price per round as manufactured ammo for 30-06.
As far as my 30-06 goes with accuracy with different brands, grains, & types it shoots them all 1 MOA or less, the only issue is it doesn't like to feed soft tips, being that's it's a semi auto.
I'm surprised you didn't mention how reloading and keeping that ammo with the gun that shot the cartridge helps too, since the shoulder has fire formed to that specific rifle, it doesn't have to waste pressure doing it again
What about energy and velocity benefits? A 7mm-08 handloaded can outperform a 7 Rem Mag using box numbers on Remington Core Lokt and Norma Whitetail.
I’ve been shooting factory ammo my whole life. But I’ve recently bought a nice RCBS reloading kit but I’ve yet to set it up. I’m getting all the components together.
I’ve been shooting for over 60 years. Today’s factory loads are so much better with consistency from lot to lot 8 out of 10. My calibers have been .22, 30.06, 5.56, .308 and most recently 6.5CM. The only caliber that drove me crazy was the 22 & 5.56 and the 5.56 was solved completely by the Wylde chambering and now it’s sub MOA out to 300yds. I must be lucky. I hand loaded for years but for the past 6 years the factory loads have been sub MOA for all my ammo 5.56 and above. The only one still “iffy” is .22. 😊
My rifles are mostly stock. Changed the barrel on my 5.56 and the triggers on all. Also .308 was in two rifle variations semi-auto AR10 and bolt action.
One question I’ve often wondered is what powder does factory ammo use?
A lot of them use proprietary partner powders. For example hornady partnered with Hodgdon to make a specific proprietary powder for the .204 Ruger.
A counter example, the first 6.5 Creedmoor ammo came with the load data on the box and listed H4350 right on the box.
41.5? 😂😂😂😂
@@Freezer003 I was wondering about superfirmace as well
I had a Winchester 70 Sporter in 223 Remington that shot six inch three-round patterns at 100 yards with factory ammo. I slapped together some cartridges using 55-grain FMJ and a local concern's smokeless powder and cut that to 2 1/2 inches for five rounds. Zero development; the minimum charge weight was 46 grains and the max was 52, so I set the powder measure to 48 and started loading. And yes, I am either obfuscating the charge weight or flat-out lying about it. A max charge of 3031 under a 55-grain Sierra boattail cut that to about 1 1/4 inch high by 1/2 inch wide. I suspect that a day where the wind wasn't gusting over my right shoulder would have reduced the vertical dispersion a bunch.
I TOTALLY agree on hand-loading! Hunters don’t want flyers. And neither does law enforcement when someone else’s life depends on it. I don’t care what I’m loading I measure powder for every round. Especially hand gun rounds. If a 38 special calls for 3.7 grains of powder I won’t settle for 3.6 or 3.8. I want that round to land in the same spot over and over again. 😊
Le can't reload
Reloading. My 6 ARC was a challenge. Didn't find a factory load close to MOA. I finally got 65vmax to group and 100sp.
I think I get it. The barrel is rather like a tuning fork. At certain vibes and harmonics of those, things settle down somewhat.
Weird = Interesting. 25 Remington, 30 Remington, 32-20, 25-20, 8.15 x 46R, 7.5×54mm French, 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel, 338/284, 338 ME, 270 WSM, 38 S&W, 32 S&W Long, 7.5 x 55 Swiss, 30-30 Bolt Action, 6mm Remington, 220 Swift, 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, 8 x 56R, 22 K Hornet, 257 Weatherby, 9×23mm Largo, 41 Magnum, 35 Remington, 30-40 Krag, 264 Win Mag, 250/3000, 257 Roberts (in the 70s when you couldn't get it), 300 Savage with modern bullets, 303 British Hawk bullets, 25-06 100 gr TSX scorching velocity, 6 mm Creedmoor affordably, 6.5 x 54, 6.5 Arisaka, 6.5 x 55 Swedish, 6.5 Creedmoor 142 ABLR without taking out a mortgage, 45/70 Marlin Guide Gun Hard Cast Gas Check shoulder breakers, and many common calibers and oddballs I've forgotten. Without handloading, shooting isn't nearly as versatile and fun.
Like you I loaded for 30+ guns. Handgun and rifle. I had two competition benchrest rifles that would put 5 shots in one hole with monotonous regularity. I loved making a rifle shoot that I needed to adapt brass to a rifle. Also lead bullets. It was making them shoot their best that was the fun part for me. I had a book full of range notes. Some oddballs, 22R2 Lovell, 8x52R Siamese, 22PPC, 45-70 in Thai Mauser, 30-30 on Win M54, 22Hornet on Win M54, lots of obsolete military guns and many more. The fun for me was the handloading.
I started down the reloading rabbit hole with a 300 Blackout. When ammo was hard to find and expensive. I've never looked back and more than likely won't.
I'm on the fence. I have a 7mm rem mag Browning ABolt that averages 1.5-2.0 MOA with factory loads. I could try reloading to see if I can get it down to MOA, or I could use that money to buy a new rifle.