At last, a voice that recognizes those issues. I fucking hate jt when im playing my friend from czechia, he plays josie. He was mentioning to me that i should sidestep her pressure which is fucking bullshit because of what was mentioned in this video. Truly, only people who struggle with Jin, will understand this. Now hear me out. There will be an uprising about Jin in T8. You can definietely tell he is easier and more accesible for anyone. P. S. Good video Nova, thanx for the content.
Apt title! That's how you present your case. With proofs. Now those who don't believe are so much in love with their pre-conceived notions that they would vehemently deny what's being presented in front of their eyes. Great work! Excellent video! Waiting for your Tekken 8 Jin video .., although I think the real assessment of Tekken 8 Jin would be in the next decade, coz I think Tekken 8 would go on till 2030, & we are living in an age of patches, soooo, ... anyways, keep up the good work!
Even for someone like me who can't react to Jin 50/50, the fact that it's slower makes a correct guess much more likely to work, whereas Kazuya's hellsweep is likely to just go through regardless of if I see it coming due to lag.
As a Jin main myself you’re preaching to the choir man. They just not gonna get it because they don’t main Jin themselves or they don’t play him a lot. Most of the stuff you’re talking about I absolutely agree with. Especially his db4, his m4, f4 and so on. They’re just gonna sum it up to “Jin mains complaining” or “Jin is busted, what are you talking about?”. I know your frustration, that is if you have any about the situation, but I like the video. It brings to light a lot of things that I myself have noticed over the course of Tekken 7’s lifespan. Keep up the good, no, GREAT work! Keep your head up too dealing with these trolls! In fact, I’m subscribing just because you are actually trying to inform people.
Even though it is unquestionably frustrating, Truth must prevail. If I must take it upon myself to be the target of mass hate and ridicule in order to inform, then *so be it.* Truth is on my side, therefore, I have nothing to fear. Thank you so much for the subsciption, my man. Real recognizes Real. :)
I'm starting to think the reason why (if devs intentionally did it) Jin's lateral movement is sabotaged is because he has the option to use a lower-risk, high coverage parry, which other characters with better lateral movement do not have. Same goes with the other examples like Akuma and Kuni (can't sidewalk cus they have other, probably even better options). Not a Jin main by any stretch but i do love getting into character designs so would love to hear people's thoughts
So, what you're implying is Jin should Hail Mary Parry spam in frame disadvantage situations where he was supposed to MOVE? 🥴 Man.. do you have an idea on how Jin Parry even works? 😅 Jin Parry is not a panacea. It can't be mindlessly used outside of reactive scenarios. It will lose to lows, it will be nullified by fast multi-hitting moves and a successful Parry per se is not a guarantee of punishment in any way. You can't punish a parried df1, for example. Many key fundamental moves in Tekken are 100% safe on Parry.
@@NovaSeiken hey, thanks for answering! and yeah, great point, I retract my statement about parry being low risk (it is hard to punish though). I'm just looking at it from a design perspective: You buff one aspect then nerf another. That's how you usually create balance and/or diversity in a character's playstyle, right? So if we're equating jin's parry here to his lateral in a sort of a same scenario, I get there are differences but there are also similarities: you also can't guarantee punishment on some sidesteps (unless you preemptively ready your punish before you even visually confirm a whiff) and you can also be punished for committing to a sidewalk. Though while obviously everyone would prefer better movement any day, there are things you only can achieve with a Jin parry i.e. you can't sidestep some moves in between strings whereas a parry can; or basically cover some ridiculous homing moves that you can't SS guard/crouch (i'm sure you can give more examples of this more than i can). Anyway, point is, I don't even know if it's intentional game design or an oversight (like tekken is such a perfect game) so his movement being crooked may just be a bug per se so we can't really go at it from this angle, but I'm just happy to learn more about what IF it is intentional and how it can be justified. Again, thanks for the insight!
@@7ranquility Man, I tell you this: if this was indeed intentional, it would be a disastrous gameplay design decision because movement for Jin is vital, PARTICULARLY T7 Jin since he sacrificed SO MUCH of entire aspects of his traditional gameplay in order to receive the normal-hit launching electric, the best whiff punisher in the game. 33% of T7 Jin revolves around tight electric whiff punishment. They made him a completely defective character in order to receive this electric to the point he is the only character incapable of hitting grounded opponents: what is the point of receiving a launching electric if you can't freaking MOVE to capitalize on its power? 🤪🤷🏻
@@7ranquility when nova showed that jin's sidestep was weaker and the counter arguments came out, this was the first thought I came to as well. and admittedly, lower ranks I used jin parry as a panacea to make up for my lack of sidestep knowledge. at higher ranks i was punished for it, but as a developer i would not at all be surprised if they saw his movement was shit and thought "eh he's got the parry lets just keep it trash". in actuality, it was probably a mistake since this is a problem that is under the radar for 90% of players.
Yo Nova i'm not trolling this time, can you reply to me? i've done some tests Modus operandi: all of these were done on p2 on infinite azure 2 with base costume jin and I did the move on hit or on block just like you did. I also sidestepped or walked the particular side you did but i will mention it if stepping the other side works when relevant. If Jin has trouble sidestepping a particular sequence or cant, then i'm going to compare him to other male characters(mainly Kazuya, Heihachi, Paul and Lars). This will be done to see how relatively bad it is when Jin struggles with a particular test against somewhat comparable body sizes. Tests: Kazumi db4 db4(Yes but hard) This was way harder to step with Jin than with any normal character aside from Lars. i did find a way to step it though. I needed to not mash and hold the first up as long as possible before sidewalking. Lars could weirdly enough easily step this at close range while jin couldn't while both struggled at midrange. Lars could however step it in the midrange with the same technique as Jin. Bob b1 b21(Yes) It is super consistent, SWR and even SSR worked. Marduk f3 df4(Yes but hard) SSR works consistent but it needs a tiny delay or a downskip(aka u n d). Kazuya had the same complications as jin here. Heihachi could mash ssl Marduk qcf2 df4(Yes) Super consistent. I could SSR or SWR easily every time Claudio f4 b41(No) Wasnt even possible on block and it never felt even close. I wasn't able to step it with Kazuya and Heihachi either on block or on hit. Jin B12 B12(Yes but inconsistent) This one was around 40% of the time possible to SWL I did however find that Jin could easily SWR it. Heihachi and Paul could do it easily on SWL but it was nearly impossible to SWR. Kazuya was exactly like Jin on both sides. Jack df1 b4(Yes but hard) Jin could step it if he delayed his SWR, also SSL worked very easily. Kazuya could SWR it easily. I think saying(6:00) his movement is worse than super heavyweights is misleading because Jack/Marduk sidestepped and sidewalked this easier than Kazuya, Heihachi and Paul. They all moved worse than Jack and Marduk, not just Jin. Also Lars behaved just like Jin here. Lili qcf3+4 f1+2(Yes) This was a reliable SWR or SWL for Jin on P1 and P2(i didn't just switch sides i actually went p1 and p2 for this). I have a hard time grasping how Jin got clipped in the video example. Results: There were a total of 8 tests which where specifically selected because the subject(Jin) wouldn't be able to step/walk them as per the video. The Testing however shows that 3 of these tests were actually not a challenge for the subject. In total the subject was able to succeed in 7 out 8 of the tests with some extra effort being needed for 4. In situations the subject did struggle or fail there were other test subjects(Kazuya, Bryan, Paul and Lars) that also had struggle or failure to some extent. The test also found situations were the subject(Jin) excelled over his contemporaries(Paul and Heihachi) when it came to sidestepping Jin 'b12 b12' to the right Discussion: The findings from this research has found that the original video has some misleading data. The poster(Mr emo karate Nova Seiken) of said video does however bring some valid points about the subjects ability to sidestep. The Kazumi Db4 Db4 and the numerous other complications during the tests does correlate with Jin(the subject) having weak movement. However it could also be said that Jin succeeding 3 of the 8 tests with passing colours shows that the original poster has exaggerated some of the claims of said movement, that or a possible lack of sidestepping etiquette. Nova Seiken was nonetheless right that Kazuya had in general superior movement compared to Jin. The potential failure in this test was the lack of sidestepping tests that weren't specifically designed for Jin to struggle with. Also the lack of fully testing the other participants during a successful Jin test could be improved in the future to get a better scope at Jin's sidestep compared to his contemporaries.
Never played Jin in previous Tekken games. Played 3k hours of Tekken 7(maybe not as much as some nerds but) and I mained Jin about 20% of that time. The rest is pretty evenly spread among other characters. Your video finally explained why I always feel clunky and slow when I play Jin compared to so many other characters. I think that T8 Jin's f4 is ok and so was T7 Jin's f4 pre-nerf. His magic 4 whiff recovery was not ok, but f4 combo should not be that difficult to do. Jin is a poster boy character, he is not supposed to have a high entry barrier. Only high ceiling.
I disagree. He must remain the most inaccessible character in the franchise, in my opinion. It was always his identity due to the unlimited reactive potential alone. I'm a severe critic of T8 Jin. His gameplay design is despicable. He now can resort to a Heihachi-like greedy oppression at a whim, meanwhile being granted access to easy execution demands on his key tools. He should not ever have this kind of power. Ever. They got it right here and there with some very welcome additions, but *what they got wrong* completely ruined the character.
@@NovaSeiken "the most inaccessible character in the franchise" It hurts the franchise if the most popular character is the least accessible. It's not like that in MK, SF or GG. I also differentiated between floor and ceiling for a good reason. The best option for the franchise is for Jin to be both the most accessible and have the highest skill ceiling.
@@Samaelish I know it hurts the franchise. Why do you think Jin was made more accessible? It was obviously a *commercial decision.* Someone at Namco marketing department realized having an *absolutely inaccessible protagonist* in Jin and an *inaccessible antagonist* in Kazuya is a bad commercial decision. Jin has the highest adhesion rate and the lowest retention rate simultaneously. Newcomers pick Jin, lose, lose, lose, lose keep losing again, then train to lose even further, then train ever harder to lose in style. They will either change character or downright grow disillusioned with Tekken as a whole. This is bad for business. It means less retention, less DLC purchases, etc. Picking Legacy Jin naturally makes the newcomer question if "Tekken is really for him", because the character is simply *designed to lose* if the pilot isn't packed with an arsenal of reactive answers for every single situation. Jin will lose. Period. There is a reason players like Arslan Ash will never even dare to consider Jin as a viable pick. But not doing so hurts legacy Jin players even more, so of course I'll personally be against it. I don't want any chimpanzee to take for granted a power someone had to EARN to achieve. *Tekken already has more than 45 crutch-characters that play by themselves for the player to be carried.* They don't need to ruin Jin in the unholy altar of accessibility. Elite, artistic-driven characters like Jin, Steve and Lee must NOT be profaned.
@@NovaSeiken I understand your position and I love Jin as a personality, and a bit less, as a playable character. Currently, in Tekken 7 the situation for newcomers who pick Jin is even worse, because of his movement. Happened to me, I am constantly switching between Jin and other characters and I am constantly getting clipped by moves with Jin. Annoying unpredictability forcing me to learn small Jin situations instead of Tekken situations. I like Jin more than any other character. I'd like to make it clear. But between Jin and Tekken my choice is obvious. Tekken any day. Maybe we could go with a bit older Jin in the next Tekken iteration(Tekken9) and make the protagonist accessible and the antagonist(Jin?) difficult.
@@NovaSeiken I want Tekken to succeed as a game more than I want legacy characters to stay the way they are. It's where we differ, even though I understand where you're coming from.
Themainman is his own enemy, his tournament streams playing Fujin players, he’s rusty and lazy. Worst of all, he gave soo many of his followers a false sense of achievement, by talking about Kazuya’s difficulty in Tekken, where, even I with Jin, could hardly come out of Emperor, while with Kazuya, easy Tekken God. More people should post stuff like this. So his followers actually see what a hypocrite he is.
I'm actually a fan of his Kazuya gameplay and see him as a beacon for the Tekken community. That will not change, at all. I wish him all the best, even though he used the mass audience to ridicule me when I was trying to inform something on good faith that he is clearly not knowledgeable about. His passion for Kazuya completely blinds him when it comes to Jin, to the point he appealed for wishful thinking and used the most scandalous interactions to forcibly prove his points: if his standard for "good movement" is being able to step something GIGAS can, I rest my case. The absolute proof he was completely ignorant on the subject is in *his livestream,* he tried to demonstrate situations where Jin was supposed to be able to step, so he picked Dragunov d2 to prove his point, and he UNIRONICALLY BELIEVED Jin would be able to SSR/SWR Dragunov WS4. I literally had to *EDUCATE him on chat* that this ain't EVER happening. He was literally trying to SWR Dragunov WS4 to no avail and I had to inform him that he would have to Sidewalk Left in order to get it: he was completely ignorant and oblivious about the MOST BASIC AND QUINTESSENTIAL STUFF and *still wanted to educate ME about the movement from MY character.* It's a damn shame, because I can perfectly understand no one is perfect and *no one is expected to know everything.* But instead of admitting he was sailing on unknown waters, he tried to DOUBLE DOWN and ridicule someone who is objectively more knowledgeable than him on the subject, when he clearly doesn't have a clue of what he is talking about. I have an obligation to know about my character: he doesn't. I never blamed him for not knowing: NO ONE even discusses this. I'm actually taking it upon myself to bring these issues into light. But the fact that he ridiculed me through his audience, taking me as an dishonest liar... that bothered me because I was informing on good faith.
Very well made video. Not surprised to see TMM lying again as he has been proven time and time again to be EXTREMELY biased if not outright toxic in the past. All TMM content can be basically broken down into two categories. 1. Kazuya/Lars (sometimes) got a buff, or any other character got a debuff; TMM is happy. 2. Literally anyone else got a buff; TMM says its unnecessary BS
I don't really see him as a toxic personality. I believe he is an overall positive figure and a beacon for the Tekken community. The thing is he is so passionate about Kazuya that it completely blinds him from different perspectives and by default assumes misconceptions to be automatically true if it would somehow favor his bias towards Kazuya. He already assumed he was knowledgeable on something he doesn't have a SINGLE CLUE about, because he assumed through WISHFUL THINKING that "Jin HAS to move just like Kazuya because the fabric of my reality would shatter otherwise". There's definitely something about Jin to TMM, man... It's *always Jin* and *particularly Jin.* I bear him no ill will at all and I sincerely wish him all the best. Big long-time fan of his Kazuya gameplay. Very disappointing he tried with the bulk of his audience to ridicule me and take me as a dishonest liar when I tried to inform something on good faith. I'm not looking for an apology or anything of the sort because I'm already SO GRATEFUL that, thanks to him as a beacon, *these issues could be FINALLY brought into light,* because literally everyone doesn't know/doesn't talk about it.
Amazing, thank you so much for your hard work, you must feel vindicated and rightfully so! Out of curiosity, for tekken tag 2, tekken 7 and tekken 8 what is your controller type of choice? I want to emulate you on my path to Jin mastery. I've been at it for years in Tekken 7 and always thought that something was out of place with him but kept getting gas lit by other players. This video is refreshing
Hi Nova, I'm a casual so I dont understand most of the stuff discussed here. However, I commend you for your high effort content and your constructive criticism on a popular content creator. I enjoy listening to your videoa the same way I enjoy TMM's content. I like hearing discussion from the advanced level of this game.
I really, really appreciate it, man. Thank you so much. I really tried hard to inform because this matter is as obscure and not talked about as it is vital.
0:53 There is also the fact that people for some reason tend to ignore when people speaking in another language express themselves. English is clearly not Nova's first language so there might be some miscommunications or unintended side-effects of speaking in English. The same kind of things have happened with Knee, Arslan, and even TheMainMan himself seeing as he is Swedish. I wish people would be more understanding of how difficult it is to translate your ideas into another language that is not your native tongue. Tekken and it's high-level concepts are hard enough to get across to an audience in and of themselves, so to do it in another language is mind-boggling. I said this before, but I don't think you came across as off-putting at all. Keep up the good work, Nova. 👍
Dude... I have to work for a living... XD It takes so much time to produce decent content, my channel has 400 followers, unfortunately: people might watch my videogame content, but very few actually press the subscribe button. I do Tekken content on my own pace because I don't have plenty of time to do it. Stay tuned and it will eventually come out, I promise you.
Thank you for taking the incentive. MainMan's petulance mistook your goodwill for derision; I remember him talking down to you, a complete stranger, with the magnanimity of a schoolmaster reprimanding a dunce when he talked about "timing" Kazuya's hellsweep -- something which one HAS to preordain...and that's not even counting PS4 input delay, which is the tournament standard. I, too have grown less and less fond of Tekken 8's Jin the more I've played him. D1 (corpse thrust) is now a power crush, and so is the new zen 2. Jin should NOT have panic moves which do not take your reflexes into your account; UF2 has a meagre reward with the risk of being counterhit and his parry's been nerfed (rightfully), but Jin has no business receiving Devil Jin's turn stealing samsara as a whiff punisher in the neutral AND as a panic button -- not to mention how much CDS into samsara resembles his new D2's animation. Speaking of D2, I don't mind it as much because of his nerfed hellsweep, but my one problem with it is that it intrudes upon his old (blackout) D2's usage, unless you want your opponent to retain their grounded position from close range. I wouldn't mind it being -15 either.
I think largely TMM makes *decent* enough points but for the wrong things and completely misinterprets the points you made ergo strawmanning them by deconstructing an argument that he thinks you're making and trying to argue with that, even with this in mind some arguments are as the videos proven - mostly on a non-credible basis. Ggs good response, i hope TMM doesnt take it the wrong way. I think the biggest issue is the constant comparison between Jin and Kazuya which would go on ad-naseum between BOTH sides since noones really stating that Jin and Kazuya are 2 entirely different chars, Jin can adopt a Mishima-esque mixup but its not his go-to thing or his main thing, so people get annoyed at the differences despite it being ENTIRELY the point. Imo Jins best used as a keep-out/poking orientated char since its his most consistent style, something i dont think Kazuya can do well since its not on the cards for him. It is important to note both chars are pretty difficult and whether one is more difficult than the other is largely subjective, their difficulties lie in the weaknesses expressed when both begin to overlap (i.e Jins wavedash "mixup" being used similar to Kazuyas, and Kazuya playing moreso keepout orientated for instance) which really shows the difference in their moves and utilities.
Granted alot of things have changed in Tekken 8 to the extent that quite a bit of information on both sides will be redundant and outdated moving forward with a major shift in dynamics even post launch. Wonder how much of either will truly stick moving into the next game.
Very reasonable takes, my man. I understand your perspective. BTW: when it comes to T8 Jin, TMM's takes are legit and we pretty much go hand in hand. His *general criticism* of T8 Jin is *300% justified,* even though he *conveniently doesn't want to address the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM,* which is *T8 Jin db4.* But he is overall correct. All his criticisms when it comes to T8 Jin gameplay design are justified and I will be covering T8 Jin in the near future. Stay tuned!
@@NovaSeiken for sure. My biggest issue with T8 Jin is how tossed aside db4 is in favour of his new d2 which i feel also regresses his Kyokushin roots and identity alongside simplifying his lows. But i dont think its an unwelcome take, i reckon thats the majority opinion. I think they did cd4 well though which as a Jin main might be controversial to say lmao..
@@juntao3329 In my opinion, his db4 should be safer to justify its exposure. His db4 is the *absolute worst low from the -13 category.* I even displayed it on the previous video. There's absolutely no reason to not be a chimpanzee and just go for the new T8 Jin d2 and collect its rewards: insane range, Bryan Hatchet damage, bigger plus than db4, CH launch. Online folks won't react to it for shit. It's an abomination to my standards, the standard I'm used to. I would even agree with the LLRK nerf if the second hit, that jumping downward palm, *caused a SHIT TON of damage on its own,* even more base damage than Kazuya's second punch on his HS. If their intention was to kill Jin LLRK full combo becase of the backturned wall carry, I can take it, provided Jin LLRK still remained the most rewarding/damaging hellsweep out of every hellsweep because of its further exposure and potential reactability. It makes no sense for him to have the most exposed/reactable hellsweep while at the same time being given the worst reward. That second punch should deal much more damage OR they should revert it to a backturned full combo. It can't stay like that, otherwise there is ZERO reason to go for *any low* beyond d2 for chunks and d4 as the ultraconservative low option.
Imagine having to milk TMM's tits off just because you're upset with your character being S tier. Your whole argument is "this move can't do everything! Jin can't be S tier when 2 characters can do this! TMM is a bug dumby!!" honestly sad
Imagine downplaying the importance of movement in TEKKEN... lol I rest my case. What is sad is your inability to see what is right in front of your eyes.
@@KamDaMan2007than check your eyes cause you're either blind, delusional or both. You have clear evidence of Jin NOT having "normal movement" yet you deny it because TMM's cahck is way too tasty for you apparently
At last, a voice that recognizes those issues. I fucking hate jt when im playing my friend from czechia, he plays josie. He was mentioning to me that i should sidestep her pressure which is fucking bullshit because of what was mentioned in this video. Truly, only people who struggle with Jin, will understand this. Now hear me out. There will be an uprising about Jin in T8. You can definietely tell he is easier and more accesible for anyone. P. S. Good video Nova, thanx for the content.
I must say your knowledge is incredible and I agree 100% seeing these flaws can’t justify a S tier he is clearly A+
19:48 PFT! WHY DOES THAT FAN BOUND!? 🤣
I didn't know howbad Jin movemnet in T7 was until I watched your videos. Great stuff here, man.
Apt title! That's how you present your case. With proofs. Now those who don't believe are so much in love with their pre-conceived notions that they would vehemently deny what's being presented in front of their eyes. Great work! Excellent video! Waiting for your Tekken 8 Jin video .., although I think the real assessment of Tekken 8 Jin would be in the next decade, coz I think Tekken 8 would go on till 2030, & we are living in an age of patches, soooo, ... anyways, keep up the good work!
Even for someone like me who can't react to Jin 50/50, the fact that it's slower makes a correct guess much more likely to work, whereas Kazuya's hellsweep is likely to just go through regardless of if I see it coming due to lag.
As a Jin main myself you’re preaching to the choir man. They just not gonna get it because they don’t main Jin themselves or they don’t play him a lot. Most of the stuff you’re talking about I absolutely agree with. Especially his db4, his m4, f4 and so on. They’re just gonna sum it up to “Jin mains complaining” or “Jin is busted, what are you talking about?”. I know your frustration, that is if you have any about the situation, but I like the video. It brings to light a lot of things that I myself have noticed over the course of Tekken 7’s lifespan. Keep up the good, no, GREAT work! Keep your head up too dealing with these trolls! In fact, I’m subscribing just because you are actually trying to inform people.
Even though it is unquestionably frustrating, Truth must prevail. If I must take it upon myself to be the target of mass hate and ridicule in order to inform, then *so be it.*
Truth is on my side, therefore, I have nothing to fear.
Thank you so much for the subsciption, my man.
Real recognizes Real. :)
@@NovaSeikenyou’re welcome man again, keep up the good work!
I'm starting to think the reason why (if devs intentionally did it) Jin's lateral movement is sabotaged is because he has the option to use a lower-risk, high coverage parry, which other characters with better lateral movement do not have. Same goes with the other examples like Akuma and Kuni (can't sidewalk cus they have other, probably even better options). Not a Jin main by any stretch but i do love getting into character designs so would love to hear people's thoughts
So, what you're implying is Jin should Hail Mary Parry spam in frame disadvantage situations where he was supposed to MOVE? 🥴
Man.. do you have an idea on how Jin Parry even works? 😅
Jin Parry is not a panacea. It can't be mindlessly used outside of reactive scenarios.
It will lose to lows, it will be nullified by fast multi-hitting moves and a successful Parry per se is not a guarantee of punishment in any way. You can't punish a parried df1, for example. Many key fundamental moves in Tekken are 100% safe on Parry.
@@NovaSeiken hey, thanks for answering! and yeah, great point, I retract my statement about parry being low risk (it is hard to punish though). I'm just looking at it from a design perspective: You buff one aspect then nerf another. That's how you usually create balance and/or diversity in a character's playstyle, right?
So if we're equating jin's parry here to his lateral in a sort of a same scenario, I get there are differences but there are also similarities: you also can't guarantee punishment on some sidesteps (unless you preemptively ready your punish before you even visually confirm a whiff) and you can also be punished for committing to a sidewalk.
Though while obviously everyone would prefer better movement any day, there are things you only can achieve with a Jin parry i.e. you can't sidestep some moves in between strings whereas a parry can; or basically cover some ridiculous homing moves that you can't SS guard/crouch (i'm sure you can give more examples of this more than i can).
Anyway, point is, I don't even know if it's intentional game design or an oversight (like tekken is such a perfect game) so his movement being crooked may just be a bug per se so we can't really go at it from this angle, but I'm just happy to learn more about what IF it is intentional and how it can be justified. Again, thanks for the insight!
@@7ranquility Man, I tell you this: if this was indeed intentional, it would be a disastrous gameplay design decision because movement for Jin is vital, PARTICULARLY T7 Jin since he sacrificed SO MUCH of entire aspects of his traditional gameplay in order to receive the normal-hit launching electric, the best whiff punisher in the game.
33% of T7 Jin revolves around tight electric whiff punishment.
They made him a completely defective character in order to receive this electric to the point he is the only character incapable of hitting grounded opponents: what is the point of receiving a launching electric if you can't freaking MOVE to capitalize on its power? 🤪🤷🏻
@@7ranquility when nova showed that jin's sidestep was weaker and the counter arguments came out, this was the first thought I came to as well. and admittedly, lower ranks I used jin parry as a panacea to make up for my lack of sidestep knowledge. at higher ranks i was punished for it, but as a developer i would not at all be surprised if they saw his movement was shit and thought "eh he's got the parry lets just keep it trash". in actuality, it was probably a mistake since this is a problem that is under the radar for 90% of players.
Yo Nova i'm not trolling this time, can you reply to me?
i've done some tests
Modus operandi:
all of these were done on p2 on infinite azure 2 with base costume jin and I did the move on hit or on block just like you did. I also sidestepped or walked the particular side you did but i will mention it if stepping the other side works when relevant. If Jin has trouble sidestepping a particular sequence or cant, then i'm going to compare him to other male characters(mainly Kazuya, Heihachi, Paul and Lars). This will be done to see how relatively bad it is when Jin struggles with a particular test against somewhat comparable body sizes.
Tests:
Kazumi db4 db4(Yes but hard)
This was way harder to step with Jin than with any normal character aside from Lars. i did find a way to step it though. I needed to not mash and hold the first up as long as possible before sidewalking. Lars could weirdly enough easily step this at close range while jin couldn't while both struggled at midrange. Lars could however step it in the midrange with the same technique as Jin.
Bob b1 b21(Yes)
It is super consistent, SWR and even SSR worked.
Marduk f3 df4(Yes but hard)
SSR works consistent but it needs a tiny delay or a downskip(aka u n d). Kazuya had the same complications as jin here. Heihachi could mash ssl
Marduk qcf2 df4(Yes)
Super consistent. I could SSR or SWR easily every time
Claudio f4 b41(No)
Wasnt even possible on block and it never felt even close. I wasn't able to step it with Kazuya and Heihachi either on block or on hit.
Jin B12 B12(Yes but inconsistent)
This one was around 40% of the time possible to SWL I did however find that Jin could easily SWR it. Heihachi and Paul could do it easily on SWL but it was nearly impossible to SWR. Kazuya was exactly like Jin on both sides.
Jack df1 b4(Yes but hard)
Jin could step it if he delayed his SWR, also SSL worked very easily. Kazuya could SWR it easily. I think saying(6:00) his movement is worse than super heavyweights is misleading because Jack/Marduk sidestepped and sidewalked this easier than Kazuya, Heihachi and Paul. They all moved worse than Jack and Marduk, not just Jin. Also Lars behaved just like Jin here.
Lili qcf3+4 f1+2(Yes)
This was a reliable SWR or SWL for Jin on P1 and P2(i didn't just switch sides i actually went p1 and p2 for this). I have a hard time grasping how Jin got clipped in the video example.
Results:
There were a total of 8 tests which where specifically selected because the subject(Jin) wouldn't be able to step/walk them as per the video. The Testing however shows that 3 of these tests were actually not a challenge for the subject. In total the subject was able to succeed in 7 out 8 of the tests with some extra effort being needed for 4. In situations the subject did struggle or fail there were other test subjects(Kazuya, Bryan, Paul and Lars) that also had struggle or failure to some extent. The test also found situations were the subject(Jin) excelled over his contemporaries(Paul and Heihachi) when it came to sidestepping Jin 'b12 b12' to the right
Discussion:
The findings from this research has found that the original video has some misleading data. The poster(Mr emo karate Nova Seiken) of said video does however bring some valid points about the subjects ability to sidestep. The Kazumi Db4 Db4 and the numerous other complications during the tests does correlate with Jin(the subject) having weak movement. However it could also be said that Jin succeeding 3 of the 8 tests with passing colours shows that the original poster has exaggerated some of the claims of said movement, that or a possible lack of sidestepping etiquette. Nova Seiken was nonetheless right that Kazuya had in general superior movement compared to Jin.
The potential failure in this test was the lack of sidestepping tests that weren't specifically designed for Jin to struggle with. Also the lack of fully testing the other participants during a successful Jin test could be improved in the future to get a better scope at Jin's sidestep compared to his contemporaries.
Never played Jin in previous Tekken games.
Played 3k hours of Tekken 7(maybe not as much as some nerds but) and I mained Jin about 20% of that time. The rest is pretty evenly spread among other characters. Your video finally explained why I always feel clunky and slow when I play Jin compared to so many other characters. I think that T8 Jin's f4 is ok and so was T7 Jin's f4 pre-nerf. His magic 4 whiff recovery was not ok, but f4 combo should not be that difficult to do. Jin is a poster boy character, he is not supposed to have a high entry barrier. Only high ceiling.
I disagree.
He must remain the most inaccessible character in the franchise, in my opinion. It was always his identity due to the unlimited reactive potential alone.
I'm a severe critic of T8 Jin. His gameplay design is despicable. He now can resort to a Heihachi-like greedy oppression at a whim, meanwhile being granted access to easy execution demands on his key tools.
He should not ever have this kind of power. Ever.
They got it right here and there with some very welcome additions, but *what they got wrong* completely ruined the character.
@@NovaSeiken "the most inaccessible character in the franchise"
It hurts the franchise if the most popular character is the least accessible. It's not like that in MK, SF or GG.
I also differentiated between floor and ceiling for a good reason. The best option for the franchise is for Jin to be both the most accessible and have the highest skill ceiling.
@@Samaelish I know it hurts the franchise.
Why do you think Jin was made more accessible? It was obviously a *commercial decision.*
Someone at Namco marketing department realized having an *absolutely inaccessible protagonist* in Jin and an *inaccessible antagonist* in Kazuya is a bad commercial decision.
Jin has the highest adhesion rate and the lowest retention rate simultaneously.
Newcomers pick Jin, lose, lose, lose, lose keep losing again, then train to lose even further, then train ever harder to lose in style. They will either change character or downright grow disillusioned with Tekken as a whole.
This is bad for business. It means less retention, less DLC purchases, etc.
Picking Legacy Jin naturally makes the newcomer question if "Tekken is really for him", because the character is simply *designed to lose* if the pilot isn't packed with an arsenal of reactive answers for every single situation. Jin will lose. Period.
There is a reason players like Arslan Ash will never even dare to consider Jin as a viable pick.
But not doing so hurts legacy Jin players even more, so of course I'll personally be against it.
I don't want any chimpanzee to take for granted a power someone had to EARN to achieve.
*Tekken already has more than 45 crutch-characters that play by themselves for the player to be carried.*
They don't need to ruin Jin in the unholy altar of accessibility.
Elite, artistic-driven characters like Jin, Steve and Lee must NOT be profaned.
@@NovaSeiken I understand your position and I love Jin as a personality, and a bit less, as a playable character. Currently, in Tekken 7 the situation for newcomers who pick Jin is even worse, because of his movement. Happened to me, I am constantly switching between Jin and other characters and I am constantly getting clipped by moves with Jin. Annoying unpredictability forcing me to learn small Jin situations instead of Tekken situations.
I like Jin more than any other character. I'd like to make it clear. But between Jin and Tekken my choice is obvious. Tekken any day. Maybe we could go with a bit older Jin in the next Tekken iteration(Tekken9) and make the protagonist accessible and the antagonist(Jin?) difficult.
@@NovaSeiken I want Tekken to succeed as a game more than I want legacy characters to stay the way they are. It's where we differ, even though I understand where you're coming from.
Themainman is his own enemy, his tournament streams playing Fujin players, he’s rusty and lazy. Worst of all, he gave soo many of his followers a false sense of achievement, by talking about Kazuya’s difficulty in Tekken, where, even I with Jin, could hardly come out of Emperor, while with Kazuya, easy Tekken God. More people should post stuff like this. So his followers actually see what a hypocrite he is.
I'm actually a fan of his Kazuya gameplay and see him as a beacon for the Tekken community. That will not change, at all.
I wish him all the best, even though he used the mass audience to ridicule me when I was trying to inform something on good faith that he is clearly not knowledgeable about.
His passion for Kazuya completely blinds him when it comes to Jin, to the point he appealed for wishful thinking and used the most scandalous interactions to forcibly prove his points: if his standard for "good movement" is being able to step something GIGAS can, I rest my case.
The absolute proof he was completely ignorant on the subject is in *his livestream,* he tried to demonstrate situations where Jin was supposed to be able to step, so he picked Dragunov d2 to prove his point, and he UNIRONICALLY BELIEVED Jin would be able to SSR/SWR Dragunov WS4. I literally had to *EDUCATE him on chat* that this ain't EVER happening. He was literally trying to SWR Dragunov WS4 to no avail and I had to inform him that he would have to Sidewalk Left in order to get it: he was completely ignorant and oblivious about the MOST BASIC AND QUINTESSENTIAL STUFF and *still wanted to educate ME about the movement from MY character.*
It's a damn shame, because I can perfectly understand no one is perfect and *no one is expected to know everything.*
But instead of admitting he was sailing on unknown waters, he tried to DOUBLE DOWN and ridicule someone who is objectively more knowledgeable than him on the subject, when he clearly doesn't have a clue of what he is talking about.
I have an obligation to know about my character: he doesn't.
I never blamed him for not knowing: NO ONE even discusses this.
I'm actually taking it upon myself to bring these issues into light.
But the fact that he ridiculed me through his audience, taking me as an dishonest liar... that bothered me because I was informing on good faith.
7:42 This guy *SPITTING*
Very well made video. Not surprised to see TMM lying again as he has been proven time and time again to be EXTREMELY biased if not outright toxic in the past. All TMM content can be basically broken down into two categories. 1. Kazuya/Lars (sometimes) got a buff, or any other character got a debuff; TMM is happy. 2. Literally anyone else got a buff; TMM says its unnecessary BS
I don't really see him as a toxic personality. I believe he is an overall positive figure and a beacon for the Tekken community.
The thing is he is so passionate about Kazuya that it completely blinds him from different perspectives and by default assumes misconceptions to be automatically true if it would somehow favor his bias towards Kazuya.
He already assumed he was knowledgeable on something he doesn't have a SINGLE CLUE about, because he assumed through WISHFUL THINKING that "Jin HAS to move just like Kazuya because the fabric of my reality would shatter otherwise".
There's definitely something about Jin to TMM, man...
It's *always Jin* and *particularly Jin.*
I bear him no ill will at all and I sincerely wish him all the best. Big long-time fan of his Kazuya gameplay.
Very disappointing he tried with the bulk of his audience to ridicule me and take me as a dishonest liar when I tried to inform something on good faith.
I'm not looking for an apology or anything of the sort because I'm already SO GRATEFUL that, thanks to him as a beacon, *these issues could be FINALLY brought into light,* because literally everyone doesn't know/doesn't talk about it.
Amazing, thank you so much for your hard work, you must feel vindicated and rightfully so!
Out of curiosity, for tekken tag 2, tekken 7 and tekken 8 what is your controller type of choice? I want to emulate you on my path to Jin mastery.
I've been at it for years in Tekken 7 and always thought that something was out of place with him but kept getting gas lit by other players.
This video is refreshing
26:39 this is why i don't fuck with you kyoku crackheads man best kicks in martial arts 😭
Hi Nova, I'm a casual so I dont understand most of the stuff discussed here. However, I commend you for your high effort content and your constructive criticism on a popular content creator. I enjoy listening to your videoa the same way I enjoy TMM's content. I like hearing discussion from the advanced level of this game.
I really, really appreciate it, man.
Thank you so much.
I really tried hard to inform because this matter is as obscure and not talked about as it is vital.
0:53 There is also the fact that people for some reason tend to ignore when people speaking in another language express themselves. English is clearly not Nova's first language so there might be some miscommunications or unintended side-effects of speaking in English. The same kind of things have happened with Knee, Arslan, and even TheMainMan himself seeing as he is Swedish. I wish people would be more understanding of how difficult it is to translate your ideas into another language that is not your native tongue. Tekken and it's high-level concepts are hard enough to get across to an audience in and of themselves, so to do it in another language is mind-boggling.
I said this before, but I don't think you came across as off-putting at all. Keep up the good work, Nova. 👍
Thank you for being so considerate, man. For real.
Loved your gaming setup lmao mine is not too different
This was a much more focused video imo. To the point and straight forward. Try to keep this format and even make it more optimized than before.
Where is the breakdown of Tekken 8 Jin man
Dude... I have to work for a living... XD
It takes so much time to produce decent content, my channel has 400 followers, unfortunately: people might watch my videogame content, but very few actually press the subscribe button. I do Tekken content on my own pace because I don't have plenty of time to do it.
Stay tuned and it will eventually come out, I promise you.
@@NovaSeiken ok I understand I'll subscribe to support 2, just hurry up man can't wait to watch it
Thank you for taking the incentive. MainMan's petulance mistook your goodwill for derision; I remember him talking down to you, a complete stranger, with the magnanimity of a schoolmaster reprimanding a dunce when he talked about "timing" Kazuya's hellsweep -- something which one HAS to preordain...and that's not even counting PS4 input delay, which is the tournament standard.
I, too have grown less and less fond of Tekken 8's Jin the more I've played him. D1 (corpse thrust) is now a power crush, and so is the new zen 2. Jin should NOT have panic moves which do not take your reflexes into your account; UF2 has a meagre reward with the risk of being counterhit and his parry's been nerfed (rightfully), but Jin has no business receiving Devil Jin's turn stealing samsara as a whiff punisher in the neutral AND as a panic button -- not to mention how much CDS into samsara resembles his new D2's animation.
Speaking of D2, I don't mind it as much because of his nerfed hellsweep, but my one problem with it is that it intrudes upon his old (blackout) D2's usage, unless you want your opponent to retain their grounded position from close range. I wouldn't mind it being -15 either.
BASED VIDEO SCRUPMAN EXPOSED AGAIN BASED
I think largely TMM makes *decent* enough points but for the wrong things and completely misinterprets the points you made ergo strawmanning them by deconstructing an argument that he thinks you're making and trying to argue with that, even with this in mind some arguments are as the videos proven - mostly on a non-credible basis. Ggs good response, i hope TMM doesnt take it the wrong way. I think the biggest issue is the constant comparison between Jin and Kazuya which would go on ad-naseum between BOTH sides since noones really stating that Jin and Kazuya are 2 entirely different chars, Jin can adopt a Mishima-esque mixup but its not his go-to thing or his main thing, so people get annoyed at the differences despite it being ENTIRELY the point. Imo Jins best used as a keep-out/poking orientated char since its his most consistent style, something i dont think Kazuya can do well since its not on the cards for him.
It is important to note both chars are pretty difficult and whether one is more difficult than the other is largely subjective, their difficulties lie in the weaknesses expressed when both begin to overlap (i.e Jins wavedash "mixup" being used similar to Kazuyas, and Kazuya playing moreso keepout orientated for instance) which really shows the difference in their moves and utilities.
Granted alot of things have changed in Tekken 8 to the extent that quite a bit of information on both sides will be redundant and outdated moving forward with a major shift in dynamics even post launch. Wonder how much of either will truly stick moving into the next game.
Very reasonable takes, my man. I understand your perspective.
BTW: when it comes to T8 Jin, TMM's takes are legit and we pretty much go hand in hand. His *general criticism* of T8 Jin is *300% justified,* even though he *conveniently doesn't want to address the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM,* which is *T8 Jin db4.*
But he is overall correct. All his criticisms when it comes to T8 Jin gameplay design are justified and I will be covering T8 Jin in the near future.
Stay tuned!
@@NovaSeiken for sure. My biggest issue with T8 Jin is how tossed aside db4 is in favour of his new d2 which i feel also regresses his Kyokushin roots and identity alongside simplifying his lows. But i dont think its an unwelcome take, i reckon thats the majority opinion. I think they did cd4 well though which as a Jin main might be controversial to say lmao..
@@juntao3329 In my opinion, his db4 should be safer to justify its exposure. His db4 is the *absolute worst low from the -13 category.* I even displayed it on the previous video.
There's absolutely no reason to not be a chimpanzee and just go for the new T8 Jin d2 and collect its rewards: insane range, Bryan Hatchet damage, bigger plus than db4, CH launch. Online folks won't react to it for shit. It's an abomination to my standards, the standard I'm used to.
I would even agree with the LLRK nerf if the second hit, that jumping downward palm, *caused a SHIT TON of damage on its own,* even more base damage than Kazuya's second punch on his HS.
If their intention was to kill Jin LLRK full combo becase of the backturned wall carry, I can take it, provided Jin LLRK still remained the most rewarding/damaging hellsweep out of every hellsweep because of its further exposure and potential reactability.
It makes no sense for him to have the most exposed/reactable hellsweep while at the same time being given the worst reward.
That second punch should deal much more damage OR they should revert it to a backturned full combo.
It can't stay like that, otherwise there is ZERO reason to go for *any low* beyond d2 for chunks and d4 as the ultraconservative low option.
im a kaz main but im bad tho idk whats going on but nice vid
Botou o pau na mesa e mandou medir 🤣🤣🤣
Imagine having to milk TMM's tits off just because you're upset with your character being S tier. Your whole argument is "this move can't do everything! Jin can't be S tier when 2 characters can do this! TMM is a bug dumby!!" honestly sad
Imagine downplaying the importance of movement in TEKKEN... lol
I rest my case.
What is sad is your inability to see what is right in front of your eyes.
@@NovaSeiken Some people are just blind to what they see in front of em' ...
I don't understand what is going on Jin has at worst average movement and insane tools to his disposable making him an easy top 5
@@KamDaMan2007than check your eyes cause you're either blind, delusional or both. You have clear evidence of Jin NOT having "normal movement" yet you deny it because TMM's cahck is way too tasty for you apparently
Thanks for being based
It's alright, bro. XD
Thank you so much.
I'll keep doing my best. :)
this again😂
احمد غانم يلعب احسن من tmm