Invincibility moves really ruined the resource economy of this game. If you wanted to survive riptire you needed lucio or zen ult. An ult for an ult. Now its just a cool down move that lets you completely deny an ultimate. The power creep of the support class is disgusting.
You know Zen ult doesn't save from oneshots, right? And there were always "just a cool downs" that could completely deny an ultimate. Like shields, D.va's matrix or Mei's wall. Genji can fucking deflect your ult and turn it against you.
@@timothymongrel8361 No, but now you can get an E ability that's on a what, 14 second cooldown, that makes any allies you hit it with completely invulnerable + removes any status ailments. That's pretty fucking good compared to needing to get Lucio/Zen ult.
@@timothymongrel8361 Also, those cds were resoucres that could be burned so much easier( especially with a second tank). It also took an immense amount of gamesense and awareness for genji to deflect an ult along with dva and sig, and if they missed the ult shutdown (maybedva and sig) then they would be down a vital resource, not justbe able to tp away through walls, or make a petal that cant be pierced.
@@Warrior_Meta i don't think it's that easier to time a suzu to negate an ult than to deflect it with Genji. Why do you act like when supports press their buttons they don't give their vital resources? If Kiriko is forced to tp out she's, well, out. Depending on whaere her teammates are she ends up out of fight or dead anyway. Genji can dash out, D.va can fly away. And don't even let me start with LW's petal. It can buy him some time, but you can shoot this thing and back down he goes. Unless there was somwhere he could go (guess what, Genji would wallclimb and double jumpe there and wouldn't even use his cd on that). If you can't follow then he outplayed you. Why do you act like it's not allowed? I actually must add that ultimates are not "press q to win" abilities. They are balanced around hero's abilities. Like Tracer's ult. It's not strong. Guess why? Because she's already strong with her mobility, dps and recall. And her ult doesn't coast much so she builds it very fast. Same with Junkrat. For some reason you're so mad that Kiriko or Baptiste can survive it if they use their abilities. But the tire has fucking hp bar, you can literally destroy it without spending any abilities at all. What is your idea of support even is? Being a healing punchbag that can't defend themselves or even run away?
I agree. But the reality is, with 5v5, the tanks and supports NEED to be as strong as they are, otherwise the game would break at a fundamental level. The lack of an off tank allows for flanks and angles to be more easily accessed by DPS, thus resulting in more backline pressure. If the supports were not capable of fighting off those DPS, then they would be permanently stuck in the spawn room. The tanks also need to then be powerful enough to deal with the pressure of 5 players shooting them when they press W into contested space. Not enough damage and they aren’t a big enough threat to bother with so they can’t win space. Not enough health and just perma shooting them is too valuable. 5v5 simply breaks the game at it’s core and does not allow it to flow correctly. It is no longer worth it to take those flanks and angles as DPS because the supports are likely to force you out, making you and your team spend more resources keeping you alive than you burnt out of the enemy. This then promotes full stand still, AOE sustain, burst poke meta to happen because there is no incentives to take any risks outside of just standing and shooting down main. The solution to fixing this is to lower said sustain, cut back on burst damage and nerf overall survivability so that DPS can actually threaten kills again. However, doing what I said above will lead you straight back to the initial issue with supports not having an off tank to peel for them, contest angles and lanes, thus making the supports do nothing but die and respawn again Source: I have coached the game professionally for over 6 years
i agree with you. 5v5 will never be good as 6v6 and i believe 6v6 suffered from not enough tanks players specifically because of problematic supports, bad design, and lack of tanks heroes and not that there aren't enough tank players in the world. i think 5v5 could be improved from what it is now but it'll never be as good and as well balanced as 6v6 and we should go back to that and try to readdress queue times than keep trying to bandaid fix 5v5 to make it work. I am not a fan of the "sit back and shoot" gameplay OW2 has incentivized and i hope the devs understand this at some point and change but i don't know. we'll see i guess.
Your takes are great, and I agree with every point in the video. However, I will not tolerate this lifeweaver slander. Pull is an awful ability. It should not give invulnerability, and it should give the pulled player agency on when the pull happens and/or when the pull stops. But saying that pulling an ally into position for a play isn't skill expressive is saying that coordination and positioning aren't skills. There's a great deal of nuance and risktaking involved in that dynamic, and it could be a relevant dynamic if lifeweaver's kit was actually designed towards providing allies with versatile displacement instead of saying "nope" a bunch.
Thank you! And I would agree if pull was not an invincibility and shorter cool down to be about positioning. In it's current state it's just a nope button. Kind of like how his ult creates a tree which is a cool mechanic but people just use it for heals. His kit is very close to interesting but it's designed in a way to encourage you to play in a heal bot denial way. I think it can be better. Just giving agency alone to those being pulled would be a huge step.
And can I just say, as a result of these absurd stats on Tanks, the insane healing output, and the invulnerability granting abilities, there are A LOT of players who are sitting in ranks they don't belong in because they're constantly getting bailed out from dying/losing matches by abilities and stats that don't require skill and deny the enemy from making plays.
And then theres the doom and ball players who could be doing amazing but get one teammate that doesnt position well and dies because of it then swaps to weaver and just decides the tank can't play.
In defense for lifeweaver’s life grip, life grip is just a Zarya bubble that pulls on a 18 second cooldown. The examples you have shown where life grip saved someone’s life can literally be done exactly the same with a Zarya bubble and some healing from the supports in most cases. Life grip is not that powerful of an ability as people make it out to be.
i see the confusion but it's different in that zarya has motivation to use her bubbles offensively so you can time your attacks in between them fairly easily and they don't also reposition someone. it doesn't guarantee a save all the time. life grip is an ability that is only reactive after the fact and also not a prediction ability. it's strictly one that's held until it's time to deny a kill from happening. life grip might not be powerful but it is frustrating. that is where i find flaws in it's design and i think he could have one that better fits his kit and is more fun to play with and against.
@ Thank you for clearing my confusion here. Though as a Lifeweaver player, saying Life Grip is only a reactive ability, and it used to save someone from death just makes life grip seem like a one dimensional ability when it is not that all. While yes, the main way to use Life Grip is to reactively save someone from death, it also have other niches. If we take advantage of the repositioning aspect of the ability, life grip can be used fairly aggressively. An obvious example is pulling a high nooning cass to a different position that catches the enemies off guard. A less obvious, and a much more dangerous example is pulling the tank to a dangerous off angle, grabbing the attention of the enemy players. Life grip can also be used selfishly to save yourself. While this is extremely rare, there has been occasions where I have used Life grip to strictly save myself from getting hooked. There are obviously the popular slingshot tech but that is also a niche in its own, but quite fun. I do understand that Life Grip does have its flaws, but that can also be applied to a lot of heroes. You can’t really just strip Life Grip away from Lifeweaver and replace it with a different ability. Yes, it is frustrating in all ends, as it is also quite a buggy ability, but it does not mean we cannot reduce the frustration.
@@mrgoldenreset9590 I purposely leave out anything niche because those situations while unique are so rare they almost never get seen in game on a regular basis. what people will see is a kill be denied by lifeweaver pressing E from a safe location that many cannot reach. that frustrating experience happens 49/50 times. so i'm more interested in addressing the typical experience vs bringing the rare anecdotal instances as justification for the bad. also all those niche instances feel more like other heroes expressing skill more than lifeweaver as they still need to follow through with the majority of the play making. I would like to see life weaver as more than an aimbot healer and repositioning tool. life weavers kit does so much automatically that it's very 1 dimensional most of the time. he's extremely limited in terms of how he can express himself but also have agency over what happens in the game. it also makes it incredibly tricky to balance with no margin for error. I want him to have abilities that he uses not just in niche scenarios but also allows him to be creative 1/3 times instead of 49/50. things he can use offensively and defensively so there's choice on his end but also he's not just holding an ability waiting for something to happen. where he can choose to make a play happen as well. when lifeweaver has more options it means his opponents will have more options as well and that's healthier for the game in the long run. I know it's hard to imagine given you've played so much of how lifeweaver is now but my goal is never just to nerf problematic heroes. I don't think that's a solution. my focus is always on the game design and i want to instead create better abilities you would have more fun, choice, and agency with and also make counterplay for others more enjoyable. ultimately i would always want to improve designs so even the mains of that hero will still enjoy them if not more.
@@dragonmaster951753 not a dps main, I am a flex player with tank as my most played role, supports having imortalities and endless defensive cooldowns is what creates double shield and goats and a bunch of other cancer meta's
If you want another great example of a poorly designed hero who isnt op from another game, Bebop from Deadlock. He has the best basic attack in the game, a hook, a punch thats basically a 3 second root, and 2 abilities that do not do anything. Put it all together in a world where every other character has a strong ult and are much more well rounded, and Bebop is a character who basically cannot function unless you build him in a very specific way (and even then hes outclassed).
Cooldown countering ults has always been a thing. Tracer can recall to dodge, zar can bubble, shields block ults, reap can wraith, dva can eat ults, genji can deflect ults, etc... I totally understand your complaints with the game, but saying that 'ults counter ults' is how it used to be is a bit of a flimsy way of looking at it. I think a better way to put it is 'counter cooldowns are too common and too flexable' It used to be counting zar bubbles and break shield before you can ult, now its counting bubbles and forcing suzu and kiri tp and life grip and so on.
You know what you're right. I think I should rephrase it because old CDs to counter ults was a thing but it was about out playing with timing vs reacting after the fact. Zarya bubbles were strong but never felt over bearing cause she needed to use them offensively as well. She also had clear weaknesses. I think I need to start thinking about how I say it differently to imply it's more about counter play than just simple cool downs.
There is a difference between Orisa countering queen with a perfectly timed, perfectly aimed spear and a kiri cleansing the entire team after the ultrasound already lands. Cooldowns countering Ulta has always existed in specific scenarios in specific matchups. Support cooldowns counter all ultimates in almost all scenarios
Alright, what is your solution to this problem? Also, how would you address a support player feeling like they have no agency in the outcome of the match?
@@LucasSousa_66 support has never been useless, and there have been many times in the history of overwatch where they weren't op, don't pretend that its an unsolvable problem
the problem with support players not having agency is what i'm trying to get at and people seem to confuse it with thinking i just want supports nerfed. i don't. the more abilities are designed in a 1 dimensional way the less agency you have over your games. i want them reworked to have abilities that allow them to play offensively. i am always complimenting ana's kit because i think it's a good kit. she's got super strong abilities but the trade off is she's not mobile. her abilities can be used in both offensive and defensive ways. immortalities are not fun and they deny kills while having no meaningful way to use them offensively so players sit on them and only react with them vs predicting or being proactive. auto aim abilities hurt players because there's less ways to express yourselves. say for instance kiriko's healing papers. it's just auto aim and it feels crappy. in her cinematic she places a paper onto someone. if we allowed her to have a set number of rechargeable papers that she could place on allies to heal over time it would free her up to be offensive with her kunai without feeling the pressure to heal all the time. it would also give choice for who she decides to place them on and feel more fair on the opposing end. this would give her more agency by allowing her to play more offensively. lifeweaver's E i mentioned in another comment could be an object he tosses like a volley ball so it can go up and over things and he could press E again to detonate it and it creates a flower that is also a toxic gas for enemies/regen for allies in that area. this would allow him to control space but also an ability that isn't useless without his team. it could also mean he could contribute to securing kills more. commenters seem to get super defensive thinking i want supports weak and i don't. i want them to be designed better so playing them isn't so limiting and boring but also taking away from the fun of other players. we can have strong supports and a fair feeling game the two are not mutually exclusive. i want to remove the denial abilities and replace them with agency creating abilities.
@@redish2098 you forget that in the history of overwatch support was once the least picked role, because it was boring and the carry potential was next to none
I think if LW tries to pull in certain situations it should backfire and pull HIM into the person he targeted. For example freeze, grav, and Hazard's ult, since they ground the person, it should be like he's pulling against a wall and move him instead.
Most of these characters have such high reward for a really low skill cooldown to use. Looking down and pressing E with a really generous window of time is not skillful at all and when these cooldowns for how strong they are don't even have that bad of a cooldown timer either just makes them so annoying to play agaisnt. Those cooldowns such as suzu basically can deny any play you make and because of those abilities overwatch became a game of who can cuck the other team harder from doing any plays.
Honestly i completely understand, these characters are unfun to go up against, tbh i love playing kiriko though and a part of it is her power level but i mostly just enjoy how good of a duelist she is, most of the time i just use suzu to heal myself and go for a kill
i can totally understand why people like playing her. i don't disagree with people who say they enjoy her kit just that it creates frustration on the other end. a good duelist for supports is fine but the combination of tp'ing through walls, suzu negating anything, and climbing walls makes her have such a small window in which she is vulnerable that it's very hard for her to make any mistake that actually gets her killed. even as a dps player i recognize that duels with kiriko aren't worth. at best we usually both use our cd's and she gets out and immediately provides value and i need to play safe. there needs to be way for players to feel like they could do something to win against kiriko. but my videos are not to say "just nerf kiriko". i want her kit to be reworked to give kiriko players more options on how to play but also more counterplay for others while still maintaining a lot of her identity. i think it is possible.
Why don’t the devs apply this logic to the most min/maxed heros? Let’s make it so 90% of the players can play genji at a decently high level. Let’s do the same for Doomfist!
Remember in OW1 when they gave Moira the ability to briefly make her allies in invincible? Remember how fucking furious that made the community that this change was even under consideration? Remember how they went on to implement that exact effect with the introduction of Kiriko? With the exception of maybe Ramattra, I think OW2 has been nothing but misses on the hero design front.
@ JQ is close but I think it suffers on two fronts that need fixing: 1) her reliance on DoT mechanics shoots her in the foot a lot. Not only does it make her hard countered by kiriko in a game that allegedly wanted to do away with hard counters, but bleed/burn effects generally do not belong in OW. There's an interview with Geoff goodman from years ago going over why they're a horrible idea on anything that's not a sniper for the game, which is why we've never seen a flamethrower hero, and never seen them off a sniper until goodman left. 2) JQ suffers a bit from being roadhog lite. While the two have their differences and play differently, they're both close range bruisers with the ability to launch a projectile that pulls enemies into their effective ranges. On top of being junkers as well, I think they need to do more to give them both a unique identity. OW1 was very good at making the unique strengths of heroes really obvious so new players could pick it up easily, and I think OW2 has failed on this front for every hero except Ram.
@@diegocorvalan5435 On the contrary I think most of the original designs are the most coherent in the game for the time that they were created, it's just that the team took a very sharp turn in their design rules when transitioning to OW2 and failed to adapt old designs to that new philosophy.
What about making life grip like that character from valo. Lifewever uses his e and spawns a orb over him. If you shoot that orb you get pulled back. The orb is only active for a small time so if you interupt that them then they will miss their train.
Even it just being a portal that the person actually has to enter would be infinitely better than just a one button get out of jail free card that we have now.
A counter solution might be necessary here. I agree with much of the premise, but the question really comes down to "What next then?" I mean unfortunately just based on the way kits are tuned, those abilities are the only engaging part of the experience support players have. It would be difficult to create an ecosystem where they can feel like they're adding value without shifting the full body of how the game is played (which I actually think would be good). OW1 release had Mercy, Lucio, and Zen which seemed to understand that the healing can be high, but only if it takes your focus off of damage. Ana was a pretty welcome addition for the tradeoffs as well as giving mechanically gifted players some fun toys to play with. However, the way the game is played now it may be too difficult to bring supports in-line without fully alienating the playerbase that enjoys it. I mean, I have my ideas, but they tend to fail in the way that supports and tanks together would need a full overhaul just because of how reliant those two roles have gotten on eachother. Maybe shifting support from solely healing to varied buff application (I mean, that's mercy's base kit and people don't seem to hate it)? They're going to need something engaging if we want to tune down their abilities (and I don't think it's +5 healing output). How would you go about it?
I wish I had more questions like this. Now we're getting down to the actual solutions. I think we need to think about what we want supports and tanks to be and what they should excel in. I think tanks should be able to push people around and disrupt as well mitigate damage through the use of blocking. supports should focus on healing and buffs/debuffs, and dps can focus on high damage with high risk having little to none of the other things. i think every hero should be able to defend themselves but they can't be good at damage, mitigation, and healing/debuff all at once. every hero should have one obvious weakness to promote the feeling of counter play. so for kiriko for instance her suzu is strictly a defensive react after the fact ability. good counterplay is predicting your opponent vs reacting after the fact. if we do have reacting abilities they need to be designed in a way that promotes wanting to use them offensively as well so people don't just sit on them waiting. a good example is zarya bubble. she can't just hold them waiting for ults she has to use them in order to maintain pressure. so now we need to brainstorm what that means for kiriko. tossing a paper that could be used as a debuff seems like a good place to start. perhaps it could be a slow or maybe if you hit someone with a paper and then a kunai it also detonates the paper on your enemy allowing it to be an offensive ability as well. maybe when toss the paper onto one ally to instantly cleanse and then heal enough and it pops a burst heal so it can be a react after the fact ability but it's not as powerful. this i think can be fine because with how much damage and mobility she has i don't think she should have super strong abilities as well. for life weaver i think he needs an offensive ability. the game is about securing kills and he lacks any meaningful way to do that. i think i would lean harder into the flower aspect and make his E an object he lobs like a volleyball and he can press E again to spawn a flower that's poisonous to the surrounding area. making that area toxic for a moment but also allow allies a small health regen. this means he could use it to defend himself, heal himself, but also offensively to help his team and control space. i would also get rid of the heal on his dash if he had this. now these ideas are not perfect. in games without testing how something feels it's all kind of meaningless to say i could come up with the solutions on paper alone. however, i already like these ideas more and i would address other parts of their kits as well. things that offer more expression and more ways to use abilities more often but also promote better counterplay feeling like you could have done something different to win.
Juno ult is really strong but that clip of Tracer 76 tickling them, getting Pulse Bomb and presumably going "I CAN'T DO NOTHING FROM 30 METERS AGAINST A SUPPORT ULT" is so fucking hilarious. There's an argument to be made that support kits are too strong, but y'all metal rank DPSes are NOT the ones Blizzard should listen to lmao
Also if shatter can be blocked or dodged, grav can be deflected or eaten, pulse can be reflected and easy to miss, with all the other Ults in the game still having ways to counter play. What is the counter play to orbital ray that isn't wait for it to run out?
@@arinrobinson3898 Support ults being more valuable than others is nothing new, they are supposed to be the playmaking tool for kits that otherwise have less agency. Juno is a really good example, she excels at surviving and helping teammates move around, but she really doesn't interact with enemies that much. The one combo you have to flip a team fight is getting a valuable ult into a multi target right click. As for counterplay, her ult moves in a straight line and asks her team to stand under it. Most other AoE ults can abuse that, such as shatter, dragons, molten core, etc.. You also say that Orbital Ray heals as much as Transcendence, and that's just not true. Transcendence heals 300 HP/s, while Orbital Ray heals 85. Sound Barrier has the benefit of preventing most oneshots. It's still pretty strong, but it's way easier to kill people in it than in Transcendence. Don't get me wrong, I didn't click this video just to be an asshole, I actually find it baffling when people think some support kits like Kiriko are not total bullshit, and there was definitely a point when the entire role itself was overpowered. But this discourse of "supp is too easy, Blizzard is catering for casuals" is what I can't take seriously. Especially if it's used as an excuse for not trying to improve. I don't even think you went too far, but some of the comments I read here, let's just say, are definitely not coming from top players.
we can say orbital has less healing than transcendence on paper but in action it doesn't matter. it's the damage boost combined with the healing that applies significantly more pressure than a simple transcendence will. every orbital ray that happens if it isn't countered immediately with another orbital ray it almost always wins. you certainly aren't realistically going to counter it with dragon or molten core. also I've grav'd into so many orbital rays for nothing to die, so it's just not worth the risk as the amount of damage i would need combined with the extra damage they are able to dish out while in the grav means that i still lose that trade and that is my issue that there isn't any inherent weakness to a lot of these ults like there are with grav, JQ ult, rein ult, etc... when i'm in orbital ray even as tracer who has the smallest health pool i am never worried about dying unless it comes from multiple ults from the enemy team which is unlikely. I've learned very quickly that when i see an orbital ray as tracer i can clean up the entire fight with ease. it's not like i'm not finding this out through action and witnessing how other players feel and behave both in game and online. this is the problem with looking at things on paper and not in context. technically it does less healing less but in game it is not just an advantage it's almost for sure a fight winning ult. nano however, is powerful ult but also counterable because it's a single target buff. this provides player choice of countering with another ult to hold them down. you also still have your own defensive abilities to stay alive if you choose to stay and fight and even though they have the edge you could still win. there's player choice. the only realistic choice with juno ult is to let it run out and that isn't fun. i also don't get where you say i'm using it as an excuse to not improve. i'm not strictly a dps or tank main. i literally play all 3 roles to M4 since post season 9 at the very least and considering i'm able to do that as well as hold down a job and a personal life i think that's pretty good. only thing left for me is top 500 or pro and i'm not getting paid to play this game daily so i'd rather not. my experience at ranking up on support is always the easiest and these are my observations. it's why no one queues tank. i know how to play the game, i know how to win games, i know when i die and it's my fault, i know how to improve at the things i am already lacking. it doesn't make the experience of a suzu, life grip, or lamp any less frustrating. a lot of the support role is meant to say you cannot play. tanks also used to feel like you could outplay them and not anymore. even when you take a duel with another dps for noticing they made a mistake they get bailed out sometimes twice in a single fight. the amount of effort needed to put in to make plays and feel good about you're ability to outplay has drastically dropped since OW2 has released. it makes the game less fun which is why so many players and streamers are leaving or only play if it's their job. it's why so many of them are making videos about why they just aren't having fun anymore. there's a lack of reward feeling like the amount of effort you need to put in to have impact is diminishing. people are being vocal about how bummed they are and i'm choosing to listen to them and make videos explaining why. whether or not people want to listen or let it continue down this path chipping away at player choice and reward is up to them.
I think his pull is a fine design, just give the person the option to move out of it, and instead of invulnerability give them overhealth and the pull takes like half a second to start that way cc can knock them out of it. Lifeweavers ult also has skill expression, i can block sightlines, block chokes, block ults, pharah ulting? use tree to make her game over herself, doom ulting? tree him to ruin it, sig ulting? cancel it by placing tree or petal. The main issue is that so few people stick with him long enough to learn his niche techs. Also if his pull got that change then maybe his cd can be shorter that way its not a waste to use it in unique ways like pulling your ulting teamates ie orisa, cass, pharah. I really hate immortality abilites too. thats why pull should not have it, it needs to just give overhealth or dmg resistance and healing.
it s kind of the same problem as league. I think the Concept of having to bait CDs is completely valid. However the Cooldown durations have to be meaningful. If Suzu is 15 seconds but the situations that force it can only occur every 30seconds the argument falls apart. I find Suzu and Lifegrip to be more skill expressive than Recall, Wraith form and Deflect., they still force a decision timing and general awareness whereas the aforementioned three are just used whenever any danger occurs and are immediately up again for the next overextended attempt to dive a backline
I disagree because deflect recall and wraith will all be used proactively to take a risk vs support immortalies that after all super safe defensive abilities. Baiting 2 immortalies before you're allowed to play is not fun.
It does tho. If poorly design hero (for example mauga) is doing good across the board, it means that devs overtuned his raw numbers to such extent that his poorly designed kit doesnt even matter anymore. It happened more than once in OW2 lifespan.
I agree this video was mostly in response to comments on past videos saying that road hog wasn't op so I shouldn't complain about the design. My point is a design can be frustrating and bad and not op and it can be bad and op. Bad design is anything that causes player frustration regardless of tuning. Mauga was uniquely a terrible design and over tuned. It was terrible...
Tbf to Kiriko, as a DPS main, I don't feel like Kiri's design is bad. I actually think is among the better OW2 heroes but her abilities need some adjustments. For example, just like Reaper and Sym TP, theres needs to be a visual effect that indicates where she's TP'ing too and casting TP needs to be slightly longer and that should be it. Suzu is broken tho lol
I would change a lot of her kit to be honest. I like the hero fantasy of her i just think they designed her poorly. there's not a lot of skill expression in her kit. healing papers for instance should be things you actually stick to people, tp should be shorter but no limited to teammates, suzu needs to be removed for something else, and i think that's where i'd start. at least with these ideas i can already picture more creative ways to play her.
How is a hero having a move that can cleanse, burst heal 110 hp and give invulnerability to literally every interaction in the game not horrible design she or her teammates could make an insane amount of mistakes and not get a lick of punishment for them
@clarify-fc2380 Well, that's half my point. Design of Suzu is meant to cleanse or get rid off debuffs. 110 total heal from Debuffs is a number's tweak. But I'm not arguing for Suzu but even if I were to: make it so that Suzu can cleanse but the heal is very minimal like 20-30 max and most of the community wont be as frustrated against it. Still, as it is rn, broken af and can't argue in support of it
15:09 Overwatch is a gamee that designs itself while i agree with the kiriko example, it's not important we don't design heroes based around gameplay, we design heroes based around real life, and the fun will follow give cleanse to mercy, kiriko does not need a swift step, soldiers bullets go in a straight line for a reason, likewise, JQ axe does 5 extra damage to LW tree don't you see,,,,, overwatch is a game that designs itself never ever ever use gameplay as n excuse to change hero desing
Okay so I understand your point, but it is a part of the game. Tree of life can be destroyed if it was placed at the wrong place and/or time, life grip requires good positioning and timing and tracking of allies abilities. Life weaver has NO damage abilities. Mei can block almost all ultimate's, and that is the ONLY thing she actually can do. She has no extra damage only utility. Roadhog pulls those out of position, if you are a tracer and have poor positioning, of course you will die in a very annoying way (Hook, shoot. death) Besides, roadhog can as well survive many ults with a normal ability (breather) Tracer can recall out of a lot of ults and just not take damage. Sombra can hack a lot of ults and make them useless. Zayra can survive alot of ults with her bubbles, and functions EXACTLY like life weavers pull, when it comes to high bursts of damage. These are just some situations, I think what you are missing is that it is not only about aiming and shooting. It is about position, timing and experience. You like to trash a lot on life weaver so I'll take an example of a skill expression with pull and tree Tree can be used to block someone off similar to Mei's wall. The precision, timing and position matters there and is a skill. As well it is smaller than Mei's wall. Tree can kill phara when using rocket barrage 👍And deny Sigma ult 👍 Life grip can be used as a shield for example on Dva's self destruct. Pull a teammate in front of you and use the pull as a shield from the bomb, this can be used for a lot of other abilities as well (Highnoon, Riptire, Solar strike, Rocket barrage) Pull can also fling teammates high up in the air with that you mentioned. Giving low vertical mobility heros a lot more options. Like a lot a lot more options. This can also be done with petal platform with less result and more reliability. All this requires positioning, timing and experience. It is a bigger picture of resource management. That is why cool downs exists in the first place.
@@GREED_EU I honestly would not call it prevalue however? I do not understand what you mean by that. If we compare an echos sticky bombs to an Anas nade they are both impactful, And if used incorrectly you wont get any value out of it. if you can't get a pick/help your team get a pick when the opportunity strikes then you are not gaining any value. Supports do not automatically get value just because they heal, that's like saying a dps gets "free value" from dealing damage. Health depletes and heals back up. If a soldier uses visor and does not gain any kills but only deals damage. That is the same as if a Lucio uses a sound barrier and gets no saves or very little damage mitigated.
@GREED_EU I see what you're saying. I've not looked at it as pre value but it's a good way to put it. I think even with 6v6 these pre value abilities are a problem. I don't think any hero that has an ability that is strictly a react after the fact and not a predict is healthy for the game. Especially in a competitive pvp setting and they are immortalies. It's bad game design to create player frustration where denying big plays is easier than making them. I worry even with 6v6 that the pre value immortalies and healing being too high with the DPS passive bandaid fix that overwatch will still be frustrating. Even outside of 5v5 I believe overwatch has a lot of issues that I'm not sure the devs know how to address.
I think this complaint for supports lies only on your lack of mechanical skill, and this is not an offense to you however but I had noticed from your clips that your placement and positioning were not rewarded, and for good reason too. If you believe that trying to run into a full team in Orbital Ray as a Tracer will net you a positive, it's a bad play, Same as trying to kill a team with Beat by yourself. If you fail to kill a Doomfist as JQ and your team cant compromise only for his bad positioning to be rewarded by Lifeweaver pulling him out, I hate to say it but the support is not the problem in this situation. These are only two examples from your clips, and they contradict the title of your video. Yes, sometimes you have to wait out abilities and take off angles to win but there is always a time and place. Not to defend supports, but you could learn to use better examples for your argument.
Doom fist was allowed to play out of position due to his supports. I was not which is why I had to play safer. They had a life weaver and a zen. I had a Moira and a mercy. If I walked forward I get blown up without shout and cover so the play is too push the bot while trying to land my knife which is much more difficult than pull. My harder to hit skill ability is less rewarding than a support who sits in a safe unreachable spot who only needs to press E and that's a problem. Even if you close the gap in life weaver he gets away very easily. I have clear risks and weaknesses and he does not.
You VERY obviously missed the point of the clips. Doom fist was hard out of position and didn’t land any of his cooldowns and even got knifed out of position even more yet he still didn’t get any punishment due to lw having a get out of jail free card
it wasn't always like that and i'm not going to accept it. same way 5v5 didn't help the game and now they're testing 6v6 i'd like them to test removing immortality abilities.
juno’s ult has a higher cost than beat drop and tranq… which is why it’s stronger.. and she is actually well designed.. especially compared to other supports
an ultimate that immediately creates so much value that the entire enemy team has to stop playing because it was used is not a well designed ultimate. ultimate abilities are supposed to be strong but not so strong that the best counterplay is to not play. reinheirdt has a strong ultimate but there are many ways to counter it. same with zarya and JQ. there are no weaknesses to a juno ult and that is a problem. also saying she's really well designed compared to other supports is not wrong but the bar is in the ground so it's already not difficult to do.
Lmao. Juno's ultimate is so strong that it managed to overtake Kiriko's, and that ult was already busted! Also her Torpedoes are not well designed. We do not need more auto-aim/auto-lock abilities in this game.
@arinrobinson3898 I mean, they have been nerfing her Ult every patch,so there will be a point when it does become healthy. Besides her Ult being best in the game,I think Juno kit much better designed than you'll think.
@@rachetmarvel931you're the kind of player they design and balance the game around lmao. The same logic that has been actively hurting the health of the game for years now.
Dps players complaining while playing the most broken role since 2016 is peak comedy. Except for Reaper and maybe Genji players. These dudes are masochists for playing these characters.
@@aegislight5996As a reaper player (I play him quite a lot aside from other characters), Reaper isn't as strong as he used to be due to movement creep. He is a very situational character and only as strong as the situation allows. His Ult can be negated as well as interrupted with no way to stop it by player. He is very strong, but I disagree that he is broken. His damage falloff makes him have to commit to either displacement or flank. His versatility is very small.
Supports are the most broken role by far. Post season 9 I've hit M4 on every role. Support is always the easiest and fastest. DPS kits are strong because there's more skill expression. All I'm asking for is supports to get the same skill expression which will make them more fair but also allows for good players to defend themselves easier.
Juno and zen can't self heal and mercy only self heals if she is healing someone else. Also illari self heal is very small and easy to stop by killing pylon. The issue is with overall flexibility being to high to the point of supports chars having no clear weakness.
Maybe because we would be back to Ow1 supports problem? They would rely completely on their team to even play the game. Imagine always dying to two flanks combo and your team doing nothing about it. Still, having a mobility tool is better than just self healing with a ability. However, this mobility would need to be on a really really low cooldown to compensate, and if you consider how Kiri's tp works, it maybe would still be frustrating to face.
@@bueblird it's literally a kill denying ability in a game about securing kills at the press of a button that requires no skill to use. I never said supports can't have strong abilities. I'm saying they should and they should be fair and fun. Pull is neither. Stop putting words in my mouth.
they never used to exist before you do realize that right? i'm saying how easy they are to use and how much value they bring isn't healthy for the game. there are already kill denying abilities like ana's sleep dart and zarya's bubbles i don't take issue with. you should probably learn to play other heroes so you understand the game better than just from lifeweavers/support perspective.
@@bueblird then my channel isn't for you. i highly encourage you to make your own channel though highlighting the things you like about overwatch and make a case for heroes that others may find frustrating.
Wrong. You can make supports fun and engaging to play while giving them the ability to play make without making them braindead where all they have to do is press a button to get out of jaik for free or use an immortality ability. Sometimes its both. Theres no inbetween for a lot of support players and fun support heroes
I don't believe there has ever been a shortage of support players. I am also not against easier to play support heroes just that they cannot create greater value than the harder to play characters. the entire role is easy and creates insane value without trying so it's a problem and it's a big reason why tank isn't fun and why the game can be frustrating.
@@arinrobinson3898 Oh I do agree it's why I don't really play the game anymore. Ive just gotten the impression over the years that the interests of the majority of support players are more casual relative to the other roles, not interested in learning or improving...and they probably buy more skins lol but maybe that's just been my experience.
@@VambraceMusic I mean I dont' have data to back that up but i do get that vibe. there's just been so many support skins and easy supports made that have just destroyed the game in terms of competitiveness and fun. there's a lot fewer plays being made now and blizzard seems to be ok sacrificing the tank role to make support the most popular. idk it just kind of seems that way.
@@arinrobinson3898 The FBI, CIA, NSA and even the KYS already searched my hard drive, and they found nothing but 69 petabytes worth of Kiriko pictures from that one funny website. You know the one. But they let me go because I was a fellow part of the high Kiriko aristocracy, much like them.
Invincibility moves really ruined the resource economy of this game. If you wanted to survive riptire you needed lucio or zen ult. An ult for an ult. Now its just a cool down move that lets you completely deny an ultimate.
The power creep of the support class is disgusting.
You know Zen ult doesn't save from oneshots, right?
And there were always "just a cool downs" that could completely deny an ultimate. Like shields, D.va's matrix or Mei's wall. Genji can fucking deflect your ult and turn it against you.
@@timothymongrel8361 No, but now you can get an E ability that's on a what, 14 second cooldown, that makes any allies you hit it with completely invulnerable + removes any status ailments. That's pretty fucking good compared to needing to get Lucio/Zen ult.
@@timothymongrel8361 Also, those cds were resoucres that could be burned so much easier( especially with a second tank). It also took an immense amount of gamesense and awareness for genji to deflect an ult along with dva and sig, and if they missed the ult shutdown (maybedva and sig) then they would be down a vital resource, not justbe able to tp away through walls, or make a petal that cant be pierced.
@@Warrior_Meta i don't think it's that easier to time a suzu to negate an ult than to deflect it with Genji.
Why do you act like when supports press their buttons they don't give their vital resources? If Kiriko is forced to tp out she's, well, out. Depending on whaere her teammates are she ends up out of fight or dead anyway. Genji can dash out, D.va can fly away. And don't even let me start with LW's petal. It can buy him some time, but you can shoot this thing and back down he goes. Unless there was somwhere he could go (guess what, Genji would wallclimb and double jumpe there and wouldn't even use his cd on that). If you can't follow then he outplayed you. Why do you act like it's not allowed?
I actually must add that ultimates are not "press q to win" abilities. They are balanced around hero's abilities. Like Tracer's ult. It's not strong. Guess why? Because she's already strong with her mobility, dps and recall. And her ult doesn't coast much so she builds it very fast. Same with Junkrat. For some reason you're so mad that Kiriko or Baptiste can survive it if they use their abilities. But the tire has fucking hp bar, you can literally destroy it without spending any abilities at all.
What is your idea of support even is? Being a healing punchbag that can't defend themselves or even run away?
@ I’ll bust out the mnk to explain gimme a sec
I agree. But the reality is, with 5v5, the tanks and supports NEED to be as strong as they are, otherwise the game would break at a fundamental level.
The lack of an off tank allows for flanks and angles to be more easily accessed by DPS, thus resulting in more backline pressure. If the supports were not capable of fighting off those DPS, then they would be permanently stuck in the spawn room.
The tanks also need to then be powerful enough to deal with the pressure of 5 players shooting them when they press W into contested space. Not enough damage and they aren’t a big enough threat to bother with so they can’t win space. Not enough health and just perma shooting them is too valuable.
5v5 simply breaks the game at it’s core and does not allow it to flow correctly. It is no longer worth it to take those flanks and angles as DPS because the supports are likely to force you out, making you and your team spend more resources keeping you alive than you burnt out of the enemy.
This then promotes full stand still, AOE sustain, burst poke meta to happen because there is no incentives to take any risks outside of just standing and shooting down main.
The solution to fixing this is to lower said sustain, cut back on burst damage and nerf overall survivability so that DPS can actually threaten kills again.
However, doing what I said above will lead you straight back to the initial issue with supports not having an off tank to peel for them, contest angles and lanes, thus making the supports do nothing but die and respawn again
Source: I have coached the game professionally for over 6 years
i agree with you. 5v5 will never be good as 6v6 and i believe 6v6 suffered from not enough tanks players specifically because of problematic supports, bad design, and lack of tanks heroes and not that there aren't enough tank players in the world. i think 5v5 could be improved from what it is now but it'll never be as good and as well balanced as 6v6 and we should go back to that and try to readdress queue times than keep trying to bandaid fix 5v5 to make it work. I am not a fan of the "sit back and shoot" gameplay OW2 has incentivized and i hope the devs understand this at some point and change but i don't know. we'll see i guess.
Plato and Socrates
At this point there is so many "plays the game for you" characters in this game
Your takes are great, and I agree with every point in the video.
However, I will not tolerate this lifeweaver slander. Pull is an awful ability. It should not give invulnerability, and it should give the pulled player agency on when the pull happens and/or when the pull stops.
But saying that pulling an ally into position for a play isn't skill expressive is saying that coordination and positioning aren't skills. There's a great deal of nuance and risktaking involved in that dynamic, and it could be a relevant dynamic if lifeweaver's kit was actually designed towards providing allies with versatile displacement instead of saying "nope" a bunch.
Thank you! And I would agree if pull was not an invincibility and shorter cool down to be about positioning. In it's current state it's just a nope button. Kind of like how his ult creates a tree which is a cool mechanic but people just use it for heals. His kit is very close to interesting but it's designed in a way to encourage you to play in a heal bot denial way. I think it can be better. Just giving agency alone to those being pulled would be a huge step.
Supports have too many easy negate abilities and too much high and/or AOE healing. On release, the only AOE heals were Lucio.
And Lucio's heals are not as crazy as other suppprts
AOE healing in the past meant lower heals which was the trade off. OW2 there's no trade off anymore and it sucks.
Feels like the worst 10-20% of heroes gatekeep all the fun in this game
oh I completely agree with this.
And can I just say, as a result of these absurd stats on Tanks, the insane healing output, and the invulnerability granting abilities, there are A LOT of players who are sitting in ranks they don't belong in because they're constantly getting bailed out from dying/losing matches by abilities and stats that don't require skill and deny the enemy from making plays.
This is so true it’s genuinely disgusting
And then theres the doom and ball players who could be doing amazing but get one teammate that doesnt position well and dies because of it then swaps to weaver and just decides the tank can't play.
In defense for lifeweaver’s life grip, life grip is just a Zarya bubble that pulls on a 18 second cooldown. The examples you have shown where life grip saved someone’s life can literally be done exactly the same with a Zarya bubble and some healing from the supports in most cases. Life grip is not that powerful of an ability as people make it out to be.
i see the confusion but it's different in that zarya has motivation to use her bubbles offensively so you can time your attacks in between them fairly easily and they don't also reposition someone. it doesn't guarantee a save all the time. life grip is an ability that is only reactive after the fact and also not a prediction ability. it's strictly one that's held until it's time to deny a kill from happening. life grip might not be powerful but it is frustrating. that is where i find flaws in it's design and i think he could have one that better fits his kit and is more fun to play with and against.
@ Thank you for clearing my confusion here. Though as a Lifeweaver player, saying Life Grip is only a reactive ability, and it used to save someone from death just makes life grip seem like a one dimensional ability when it is not that all.
While yes, the main way to use Life Grip is to reactively save someone from death, it also have other niches. If we take advantage of the repositioning aspect of the ability, life grip can be used fairly aggressively. An obvious example is pulling a high nooning cass to a different position that catches the enemies off guard. A less obvious, and a much more dangerous example is pulling the tank to a dangerous off angle, grabbing the attention of the enemy players. Life grip can also be used selfishly to save yourself. While this is extremely rare, there has been occasions where I have used Life grip to strictly save myself from getting hooked.
There are obviously the popular slingshot tech but that is also a niche in its own, but quite fun.
I do understand that Life Grip does have its flaws, but that can also be applied to a lot of heroes. You can’t really just strip Life Grip away from Lifeweaver and replace it with a different ability. Yes, it is frustrating in all ends, as it is also quite a buggy ability, but it does not mean we cannot reduce the frustration.
@@mrgoldenreset9590 I purposely leave out anything niche because those situations while unique are so rare they almost never get seen in game on a regular basis. what people will see is a kill be denied by lifeweaver pressing E from a safe location that many cannot reach. that frustrating experience happens 49/50 times. so i'm more interested in addressing the typical experience vs bringing the rare anecdotal instances as justification for the bad. also all those niche instances feel more like other heroes expressing skill more than lifeweaver as they still need to follow through with the majority of the play making. I would like to see life weaver as more than an aimbot healer and repositioning tool.
life weavers kit does so much automatically that it's very 1 dimensional most of the time. he's extremely limited in terms of how he can express himself but also have agency over what happens in the game. it also makes it incredibly tricky to balance with no margin for error. I want him to have abilities that he uses not just in niche scenarios but also allows him to be creative 1/3 times instead of 49/50. things he can use offensively and defensively so there's choice on his end but also he's not just holding an ability waiting for something to happen. where he can choose to make a play happen as well. when lifeweaver has more options it means his opponents will have more options as well and that's healthier for the game in the long run.
I know it's hard to imagine given you've played so much of how lifeweaver is now but my goal is never just to nerf problematic heroes. I don't think that's a solution. my focus is always on the game design and i want to instead create better abilities you would have more fun, choice, and agency with and also make counterplay for others more enjoyable. ultimately i would always want to improve designs so even the mains of that hero will still enjoy them if not more.
Even if u manage to bait f ing lamp and kill this widow as sombra ,then mercy will res her
Supports ruined overwatch tbh
Not really imo. Never played ow1 but you can’t make a game like Overwatch easier for the lower skilled players. They have to get better
Dps main brain. Supports had to catch up to dps to actually gain rank on their own. Can't expect to carry games on mercy
@@dragonmaster951753 not a dps main, I am a flex player with tank as my most played role, supports having imortalities and endless defensive cooldowns is what creates double shield and goats and a bunch of other cancer meta's
@@dragonmaster951753Support/Dps player. He's right
@dragonmaster951753 yea they had to catch up but not with immort abilities ,some supports being better dps than dps, and having overturned ults
If you want another great example of a poorly designed hero who isnt op from another game, Bebop from Deadlock. He has the best basic attack in the game, a hook, a punch thats basically a 3 second root, and 2 abilities that do not do anything. Put it all together in a world where every other character has a strong ult and are much more well rounded, and Bebop is a character who basically cannot function unless you build him in a very specific way (and even then hes outclassed).
Maybe they should do something like sojourns rail gun where you can super heal your teammates with a shot but if you miss you miss.
Cooldown countering ults has always been a thing. Tracer can recall to dodge, zar can bubble, shields block ults, reap can wraith, dva can eat ults, genji can deflect ults, etc...
I totally understand your complaints with the game, but saying that 'ults counter ults' is how it used to be is a bit of a flimsy way of looking at it.
I think a better way to put it is 'counter cooldowns are too common and too flexable'
It used to be counting zar bubbles and break shield before you can ult, now its counting bubbles and forcing suzu and kiri tp and life grip and so on.
You know what you're right. I think I should rephrase it because old CDs to counter ults was a thing but it was about out playing with timing vs reacting after the fact. Zarya bubbles were strong but never felt over bearing cause she needed to use them offensively as well. She also had clear weaknesses. I think I need to start thinking about how I say it differently to imply it's more about counter play than just simple cool downs.
There is a difference between Orisa countering queen with a perfectly timed, perfectly aimed spear and a kiri cleansing the entire team after the ultrasound already lands. Cooldowns countering Ulta has always existed in specific scenarios in specific matchups. Support cooldowns counter all ultimates in almost all scenarios
Alright, what is your solution to this problem? Also, how would you address a support player feeling like they have no agency in the outcome of the match?
Nerf support damage and buff dps passive cause there's to many heal
@RisitasElpeito so support becomes useless, got it
@@LucasSousa_66 support has never been useless, and there have been many times in the history of overwatch where they weren't op, don't pretend that its an unsolvable problem
the problem with support players not having agency is what i'm trying to get at and people seem to confuse it with thinking i just want supports nerfed. i don't. the more abilities are designed in a 1 dimensional way the less agency you have over your games. i want them reworked to have abilities that allow them to play offensively. i am always complimenting ana's kit because i think it's a good kit. she's got super strong abilities but the trade off is she's not mobile. her abilities can be used in both offensive and defensive ways. immortalities are not fun and they deny kills while having no meaningful way to use them offensively so players sit on them and only react with them vs predicting or being proactive.
auto aim abilities hurt players because there's less ways to express yourselves. say for instance kiriko's healing papers. it's just auto aim and it feels crappy. in her cinematic she places a paper onto someone. if we allowed her to have a set number of rechargeable papers that she could place on allies to heal over time it would free her up to be offensive with her kunai without feeling the pressure to heal all the time. it would also give choice for who she decides to place them on and feel more fair on the opposing end. this would give her more agency by allowing her to play more offensively.
lifeweaver's E i mentioned in another comment could be an object he tosses like a volley ball so it can go up and over things and he could press E again to detonate it and it creates a flower that is also a toxic gas for enemies/regen for allies in that area. this would allow him to control space but also an ability that isn't useless without his team. it could also mean he could contribute to securing kills more.
commenters seem to get super defensive thinking i want supports weak and i don't. i want them to be designed better so playing them isn't so limiting and boring but also taking away from the fun of other players. we can have strong supports and a fair feeling game the two are not mutually exclusive. i want to remove the denial abilities and replace them with agency creating abilities.
@@redish2098 you forget that in the history of overwatch support was once the least picked role, because it was boring and the carry potential was next to none
I think if LW tries to pull in certain situations it should backfire and pull HIM into the person he targeted. For example freeze, grav, and Hazard's ult, since they ground the person, it should be like he's pulling against a wall and move him instead.
Most of these characters have such high reward for a really low skill cooldown to use. Looking down and pressing E with a really generous window of time is not skillful at all and when these cooldowns for how strong they are don't even have that bad of a cooldown timer either just makes them so annoying to play agaisnt.
Those cooldowns such as suzu basically can deny any play you make and because of those abilities overwatch became a game of who can cuck the other team harder from doing any plays.
I hate Mercy the most. She and Lifeweaver are supports that give people a free pass to do something stupid and undermind core positioning plays.
Honestly i completely understand, these characters are unfun to go up against, tbh i love playing kiriko though and a part of it is her power level but i mostly just enjoy how good of a duelist she is, most of the time i just use suzu to heal myself and go for a kill
i can totally understand why people like playing her. i don't disagree with people who say they enjoy her kit just that it creates frustration on the other end. a good duelist for supports is fine but the combination of tp'ing through walls, suzu negating anything, and climbing walls makes her have such a small window in which she is vulnerable that it's very hard for her to make any mistake that actually gets her killed. even as a dps player i recognize that duels with kiriko aren't worth. at best we usually both use our cd's and she gets out and immediately provides value and i need to play safe. there needs to be way for players to feel like they could do something to win against kiriko. but my videos are not to say "just nerf kiriko". i want her kit to be reworked to give kiriko players more options on how to play but also more counterplay for others while still maintaining a lot of her identity. i think it is possible.
Why don’t the devs apply this logic to the most min/maxed heros? Let’s make it so 90% of the players can play genji at a decently high level. Let’s do the same for Doomfist!
What a sad sorry ass state this game is in. We could've had it all but these devs continue to make the wrong decisions.
Marvel rivals banging on the door right know
@@goldengamer1379I'm going to give it a go for sure. Not a big fan of it being 3rd person but it should be fun regardless.
Remember in OW1 when they gave Moira the ability to briefly make her allies in invincible? Remember how fucking furious that made the community that this change was even under consideration? Remember how they went on to implement that exact effect with the introduction of Kiriko? With the exception of maybe Ramattra, I think OW2 has been nothing but misses on the hero design front.
honestly i think they cooked on ram and jq
@ JQ is close but I think it suffers on two fronts that need fixing:
1) her reliance on DoT mechanics shoots her in the foot a lot. Not only does it make her hard countered by kiriko in a game that allegedly wanted to do away with hard counters, but bleed/burn effects generally do not belong in OW. There's an interview with Geoff goodman from years ago going over why they're a horrible idea on anything that's not a sniper for the game, which is why we've never seen a flamethrower hero, and never seen them off a sniper until goodman left.
2) JQ suffers a bit from being roadhog lite. While the two have their differences and play differently, they're both close range bruisers with the ability to launch a projectile that pulls enemies into their effective ranges. On top of being junkers as well, I think they need to do more to give them both a unique identity. OW1 was very good at making the unique strengths of heroes really obvious so new players could pick it up easily, and I think OW2 has failed on this front for every hero except Ram.
Roadhog Is jq lite, lets be honest and say that must ow 21 original heroes are a mess
@@diegocorvalan5435 On the contrary I think most of the original designs are the most coherent in the game for the time that they were created, it's just that the team took a very sharp turn in their design rules when transitioning to OW2 and failed to adapt old designs to that new philosophy.
What about making life grip like that character from valo. Lifewever uses his e and spawns a orb over him. If you shoot that orb you get pulled back. The orb is only active for a small time so if you interupt that them then they will miss their train.
Even it just being a portal that the person actually has to enter would be infinitely better than just a one button get out of jail free card that we have now.
A counter solution might be necessary here. I agree with much of the premise, but the question really comes down to "What next then?" I mean unfortunately just based on the way kits are tuned, those abilities are the only engaging part of the experience support players have. It would be difficult to create an ecosystem where they can feel like they're adding value without shifting the full body of how the game is played (which I actually think would be good). OW1 release had Mercy, Lucio, and Zen which seemed to understand that the healing can be high, but only if it takes your focus off of damage. Ana was a pretty welcome addition for the tradeoffs as well as giving mechanically gifted players some fun toys to play with. However, the way the game is played now it may be too difficult to bring supports in-line without fully alienating the playerbase that enjoys it. I mean, I have my ideas, but they tend to fail in the way that supports and tanks together would need a full overhaul just because of how reliant those two roles have gotten on eachother. Maybe shifting support from solely healing to varied buff application (I mean, that's mercy's base kit and people don't seem to hate it)? They're going to need something engaging if we want to tune down their abilities (and I don't think it's +5 healing output). How would you go about it?
I wish I had more questions like this. Now we're getting down to the actual solutions.
I think we need to think about what we want supports and tanks to be and what they should excel in. I think tanks should be able to push people around and disrupt as well mitigate damage through the use of blocking. supports should focus on healing and buffs/debuffs, and dps can focus on high damage with high risk having little to none of the other things. i think every hero should be able to defend themselves but they can't be good at damage, mitigation, and healing/debuff all at once. every hero should have one obvious weakness to promote the feeling of counter play.
so for kiriko for instance her suzu is strictly a defensive react after the fact ability. good counterplay is predicting your opponent vs reacting after the fact. if we do have reacting abilities they need to be designed in a way that promotes wanting to use them offensively as well so people don't just sit on them waiting. a good example is zarya bubble. she can't just hold them waiting for ults she has to use them in order to maintain pressure. so now we need to brainstorm what that means for kiriko. tossing a paper that could be used as a debuff seems like a good place to start. perhaps it could be a slow or maybe if you hit someone with a paper and then a kunai it also detonates the paper on your enemy allowing it to be an offensive ability as well. maybe when toss the paper onto one ally to instantly cleanse and then heal enough and it pops a burst heal so it can be a react after the fact ability but it's not as powerful. this i think can be fine because with how much damage and mobility she has i don't think she should have super strong abilities as well.
for life weaver i think he needs an offensive ability. the game is about securing kills and he lacks any meaningful way to do that. i think i would lean harder into the flower aspect and make his E an object he lobs like a volleyball and he can press E again to spawn a flower that's poisonous to the surrounding area. making that area toxic for a moment but also allow allies a small health regen. this means he could use it to defend himself, heal himself, but also offensively to help his team and control space. i would also get rid of the heal on his dash if he had this.
now these ideas are not perfect. in games without testing how something feels it's all kind of meaningless to say i could come up with the solutions on paper alone. however, i already like these ideas more and i would address other parts of their kits as well. things that offer more expression and more ways to use abilities more often but also promote better counterplay feeling like you could have done something different to win.
I think it’d be more interesting if weaver traded places with whoever was gripped
you just want to see him get blown up it sounds like lmao
Yeah it would be sick as hell. Swap places with your teammate. Throw down a petal, and a tree. That might be an actually fun support for once XD.
Juno ult is really strong but that clip of Tracer 76 tickling them, getting Pulse Bomb and presumably going "I CAN'T DO NOTHING FROM 30 METERS AGAINST A SUPPORT ULT" is so fucking hilarious.
There's an argument to be made that support kits are too strong, but y'all metal rank DPSes are NOT the ones Blizzard should listen to lmao
I'm M4
Also if shatter can be blocked or dodged, grav can be deflected or eaten, pulse can be reflected and easy to miss, with all the other Ults in the game still having ways to counter play. What is the counter play to orbital ray that isn't wait for it to run out?
@@arinrobinson3898 Support ults being more valuable than others is nothing new, they are supposed to be the playmaking tool for kits that otherwise have less agency. Juno is a really good example, she excels at surviving and helping teammates move around, but she really doesn't interact with enemies that much. The one combo you have to flip a team fight is getting a valuable ult into a multi target right click.
As for counterplay, her ult moves in a straight line and asks her team to stand under it. Most other AoE ults can abuse that, such as shatter, dragons, molten core, etc.. You also say that Orbital Ray heals as much as Transcendence, and that's just not true. Transcendence heals 300 HP/s, while Orbital Ray heals 85. Sound Barrier has the benefit of preventing most oneshots. It's still pretty strong, but it's way easier to kill people in it than in Transcendence.
Don't get me wrong, I didn't click this video just to be an asshole, I actually find it baffling when people think some support kits like Kiriko are not total bullshit, and there was definitely a point when the entire role itself was overpowered. But this discourse of "supp is too easy, Blizzard is catering for casuals" is what I can't take seriously. Especially if it's used as an excuse for not trying to improve. I don't even think you went too far, but some of the comments I read here, let's just say, are definitely not coming from top players.
we can say orbital has less healing than transcendence on paper but in action it doesn't matter. it's the damage boost combined with the healing that applies significantly more pressure than a simple transcendence will. every orbital ray that happens if it isn't countered immediately with another orbital ray it almost always wins. you certainly aren't realistically going to counter it with dragon or molten core. also I've grav'd into so many orbital rays for nothing to die, so it's just not worth the risk as the amount of damage i would need combined with the extra damage they are able to dish out while in the grav means that i still lose that trade and that is my issue that there isn't any inherent weakness to a lot of these ults like there are with grav, JQ ult, rein ult, etc... when i'm in orbital ray even as tracer who has the smallest health pool i am never worried about dying unless it comes from multiple ults from the enemy team which is unlikely. I've learned very quickly that when i see an orbital ray as tracer i can clean up the entire fight with ease. it's not like i'm not finding this out through action and witnessing how other players feel and behave both in game and online.
this is the problem with looking at things on paper and not in context. technically it does less healing less but in game it is not just an advantage it's almost for sure a fight winning ult. nano however, is powerful ult but also counterable because it's a single target buff. this provides player choice of countering with another ult to hold them down. you also still have your own defensive abilities to stay alive if you choose to stay and fight and even though they have the edge you could still win. there's player choice. the only realistic choice with juno ult is to let it run out and that isn't fun.
i also don't get where you say i'm using it as an excuse to not improve. i'm not strictly a dps or tank main. i literally play all 3 roles to M4 since post season 9 at the very least and considering i'm able to do that as well as hold down a job and a personal life i think that's pretty good. only thing left for me is top 500 or pro and i'm not getting paid to play this game daily so i'd rather not.
my experience at ranking up on support is always the easiest and these are my observations. it's why no one queues tank. i know how to play the game, i know how to win games, i know when i die and it's my fault, i know how to improve at the things i am already lacking. it doesn't make the experience of a suzu, life grip, or lamp any less frustrating. a lot of the support role is meant to say you cannot play. tanks also used to feel like you could outplay them and not anymore. even when you take a duel with another dps for noticing they made a mistake they get bailed out sometimes twice in a single fight. the amount of effort needed to put in to make plays and feel good about you're ability to outplay has drastically dropped since OW2 has released. it makes the game less fun which is why so many players and streamers are leaving or only play if it's their job. it's why so many of them are making videos about why they just aren't having fun anymore. there's a lack of reward feeling like the amount of effort you need to put in to have impact is diminishing. people are being vocal about how bummed they are and i'm choosing to listen to them and make videos explaining why. whether or not people want to listen or let it continue down this path chipping away at player choice and reward is up to them.
I think his pull is a fine design, just give the person the option to move out of it, and instead of invulnerability give them overhealth and the pull takes like half a second to start that way cc can knock them out of it. Lifeweavers ult also has skill expression, i can block sightlines, block chokes, block ults, pharah ulting? use tree to make her game over herself, doom ulting? tree him to ruin it, sig ulting? cancel it by placing tree or petal. The main issue is that so few people stick with him long enough to learn his niche techs. Also if his pull got that change then maybe his cd can be shorter that way its not a waste to use it in unique ways like pulling your ulting teamates ie orisa, cass, pharah. I really hate immortality abilites too. thats why pull should not have it, it needs to just give overhealth or dmg resistance and healing.
Rename the role support as into superhero bc that’s what they’ve become is superheroes
it s kind of the same problem as league. I think the Concept of having to bait CDs is completely valid. However the Cooldown durations have to be meaningful. If Suzu is 15 seconds but the situations that force it can only occur every 30seconds the argument falls apart. I find Suzu and Lifegrip to be more skill expressive than Recall, Wraith form and Deflect., they still force a decision timing and general awareness whereas the aforementioned three are just used whenever any danger occurs and are immediately up again for the next overextended attempt to dive a backline
I disagree because deflect recall and wraith will all be used proactively to take a risk vs support immortalies that after all super safe defensive abilities. Baiting 2 immortalies before you're allowed to play is not fun.
It does tho. If poorly design hero (for example mauga) is doing good across the board, it means that devs overtuned his raw numbers to such extent that his poorly designed kit doesnt even matter anymore. It happened more than once in OW2 lifespan.
I agree this video was mostly in response to comments on past videos saying that road hog wasn't op so I shouldn't complain about the design. My point is a design can be frustrating and bad and not op and it can be bad and op. Bad design is anything that causes player frustration regardless of tuning. Mauga was uniquely a terrible design and over tuned. It was terrible...
Tbf to Kiriko, as a DPS main, I don't feel like Kiri's design is bad. I actually think is among the better OW2 heroes but her abilities need some adjustments. For example, just like Reaper and Sym TP, theres needs to be a visual effect that indicates where she's TP'ing too and casting TP needs to be slightly longer and that should be it. Suzu is broken tho lol
I would change a lot of her kit to be honest. I like the hero fantasy of her i just think they designed her poorly. there's not a lot of skill expression in her kit. healing papers for instance should be things you actually stick to people, tp should be shorter but no limited to teammates, suzu needs to be removed for something else, and i think that's where i'd start. at least with these ideas i can already picture more creative ways to play her.
How is a hero having a move that can cleanse, burst heal 110 hp and give invulnerability to literally every interaction in the game not horrible design she or her teammates could make an insane amount of mistakes and not get a lick of punishment for them
@clarify-fc2380 Well, that's half my point. Design of Suzu is meant to cleanse or get rid off debuffs. 110 total heal from Debuffs is a number's tweak. But I'm not arguing for Suzu but even if I were to: make it so that Suzu can cleanse but the heal is very minimal like 20-30 max and most of the community wont be as frustrated against it. Still, as it is rn, broken af and can't argue in support of it
15:09 Overwatch is a gamee that designs itself
while i agree with the kiriko example, it's not important
we don't design heroes based around gameplay, we design heroes based around real life, and the fun will follow
give cleanse to mercy, kiriko does not need a swift step, soldiers bullets go in a straight line for a reason, likewise, JQ axe does 5 extra damage to LW tree
don't you see,,,,, overwatch is a game that designs itself
never ever ever use gameplay as n excuse to change hero desing
Okay so I understand your point, but it is a part of the game.
Tree of life can be destroyed if it was placed at the wrong place and/or time, life grip requires good positioning and timing and tracking of allies abilities. Life weaver has NO damage abilities.
Mei can block almost all ultimate's, and that is the ONLY thing she actually can do. She has no extra damage only utility.
Roadhog pulls those out of position, if you are a tracer and have poor positioning, of course you will die in a very annoying way (Hook, shoot. death) Besides, roadhog can as well survive many ults with a normal ability (breather)
Tracer can recall out of a lot of ults and just not take damage.
Sombra can hack a lot of ults and make them useless.
Zayra can survive alot of ults with her bubbles, and functions EXACTLY like life weavers pull, when it comes to high bursts of damage.
These are just some situations, I think what you are missing is that it is not only about aiming and shooting. It is about position, timing and experience.
You like to trash a lot on life weaver so I'll take an example of a skill expression with pull and tree
Tree can be used to block someone off similar to Mei's wall. The precision, timing and position matters there and is a skill. As well it is smaller than Mei's wall.
Tree can kill phara when using rocket barrage 👍And deny Sigma ult 👍
Life grip can be used as a shield for example on Dva's self destruct. Pull a teammate in front of you and use the pull as a shield from the bomb, this can be used for a lot of other abilities as well (Highnoon, Riptire, Solar strike, Rocket barrage) Pull can also fling teammates high up in the air with that you mentioned. Giving low vertical mobility heros a lot more options. Like a lot a lot more options. This can also be done with petal platform with less result and more reliability. All this requires positioning, timing and experience.
It is a bigger picture of resource management. That is why cool downs exists in the first place.
Ok, but the point is NOT That they are 0 skill. It's that they get ,pre value than the effort they put in.
@@GREED_EU I honestly would not call it prevalue however? I do not understand what you mean by that.
If we compare an echos sticky bombs to an Anas nade they are both impactful, And if used incorrectly you wont get any value out of it.
if you can't get a pick/help your team get a pick when the opportunity strikes then you are not gaining any value.
Supports do not automatically get value just because they heal, that's like saying a dps gets "free value" from dealing damage. Health depletes and heals back up.
If a soldier uses visor and does not gain any kills but only deals damage.
That is the same as if a Lucio uses a sound barrier and gets no saves or very little damage mitigated.
@GREED_EU I see what you're saying. I've not looked at it as pre value but it's a good way to put it. I think even with 6v6 these pre value abilities are a problem. I don't think any hero that has an ability that is strictly a react after the fact and not a predict is healthy for the game. Especially in a competitive pvp setting and they are immortalies. It's bad game design to create player frustration where denying big plays is easier than making them. I worry even with 6v6 that the pre value immortalies and healing being too high with the DPS passive bandaid fix that overwatch will still be frustrating. Even outside of 5v5 I believe overwatch has a lot of issues that I'm not sure the devs know how to address.
I think this complaint for supports lies only on your lack of mechanical skill, and this is not an offense to you however but I had noticed from your clips that your placement and positioning were not rewarded, and for good reason too.
If you believe that trying to run into a full team in Orbital Ray as a Tracer will net you a positive, it's a bad play, Same as trying to kill a team with Beat by yourself.
If you fail to kill a Doomfist as JQ and your team cant compromise only for his bad positioning to be rewarded by Lifeweaver pulling him out, I hate to say it but the support is not the problem in this situation.
These are only two examples from your clips, and they contradict the title of your video. Yes, sometimes you have to wait out abilities and take off angles to win but there is always a time and place. Not to defend supports, but you could learn to use better examples for your argument.
Doom fist was allowed to play out of position due to his supports. I was not which is why I had to play safer. They had a life weaver and a zen. I had a Moira and a mercy. If I walked forward I get blown up without shout and cover so the play is too push the bot while trying to land my knife which is much more difficult than pull. My harder to hit skill ability is less rewarding than a support who sits in a safe unreachable spot who only needs to press E and that's a problem. Even if you close the gap in life weaver he gets away very easily. I have clear risks and weaknesses and he does not.
You VERY obviously missed the point of the clips. Doom fist was hard out of position and didn’t land any of his cooldowns and even got knifed out of position even more yet he still didn’t get any punishment due to lw having a get out of jail free card
The game is more fun when you just accept that your kills can get deny and thats fine
it wasn't always like that and i'm not going to accept it. same way 5v5 didn't help the game and now they're testing 6v6 i'd like them to test removing immortality abilities.
@@arinrobinson3898 oh on release Mercy had an ult that could potentially deny 5 kills, shut the fuck up
Is the game more fun or are you just coping by giving up
Bros nickname is death wtf💀💀💀
I'm a millennial, we have a tendency to make suicidal jokes
Hot take: make the immortality for ultimates only
The problem may persist with you face an ult that you can do nothing about.
Your comment about support ultimates is untrue.
juno’s ult has a higher cost than beat drop and tranq… which is why it’s stronger.. and she is actually well designed.. especially compared to other supports
an ultimate that immediately creates so much value that the entire enemy team has to stop playing because it was used is not a well designed ultimate. ultimate abilities are supposed to be strong but not so strong that the best counterplay is to not play. reinheirdt has a strong ultimate but there are many ways to counter it. same with zarya and JQ. there are no weaknesses to a juno ult and that is a problem.
also saying she's really well designed compared to other supports is not wrong but the bar is in the ground so it's already not difficult to do.
Lmao. Juno's ultimate is so strong that it managed to overtake Kiriko's, and that ult was already busted! Also her Torpedoes are not well designed. We do not need more auto-aim/auto-lock abilities in this game.
@arinrobinson3898 I mean, they have been nerfing her Ult every patch,so there will be a point when it does become healthy.
Besides her Ult being best in the game,I think Juno kit much better designed than you'll think.
@@rizaadon There is nothing wrong with lock-on/auto aim abilities,especially ones that aren't instant
@@rachetmarvel931you're the kind of player they design and balance the game around lmao. The same logic that has been actively hurting the health of the game for years now.
Dps players complaining while playing the most broken role since 2016 is peak comedy. Except for Reaper and maybe Genji players. These dudes are masochists for playing these characters.
reaper is literally thriving since ow2 and has been broken as shit since s9 idk what youre on about
Dps only have Widow that is broken asf
@@aegislight5996As a reaper player (I play him quite a lot aside from other characters), Reaper isn't as strong as he used to be due to movement creep. He is a very situational character and only as strong as the situation allows. His Ult can be negated as well as interrupted with no way to stop it by player.
He is very strong, but I disagree that he is broken. His damage falloff makes him have to commit to either displacement or flank. His versatility is very small.
I dont know how you think the one role with no immort abilities and hardly any self heal is the most broken.
Supports are the most broken role by far. Post season 9 I've hit M4 on every role. Support is always the easiest and fastest. DPS kits are strong because there's more skill expression. All I'm asking for is supports to get the same skill expression which will make them more fair but also allows for good players to defend themselves easier.
I don’t like the survivability creep in the support role. You can already heal yourself why do you need to be mobile as well?
Juno and zen can't self heal and mercy only self heals if she is healing someone else. Also illari self heal is very small and easy to stop by killing pylon. The issue is with overall flexibility being to high to the point of supports chars having no clear weakness.
@@thepoofster2251All Supports still self heal with the Support Passive earlier than the other roles so their survivability is still higher.
Maybe because we would be back to Ow1 supports problem? They would rely completely on their team to even play the game.
Imagine always dying to two flanks combo and your team doing nothing about it. Still, having a mobility tool is better than just self healing with a ability. However, this mobility would need to be on a really really low cooldown to compensate, and if you consider how Kiri's tp works, it maybe would still be frustrating to face.
Lifeweaver's pull trades off HP with positioning; it's not a free cake thing. God forbid supports have powerful abilities in a hero shooter.
@@bueblird it's literally a kill denying ability in a game about securing kills at the press of a button that requires no skill to use. I never said supports can't have strong abilities. I'm saying they should and they should be fair and fun. Pull is neither. Stop putting words in my mouth.
@@arinrobinson3898 Kill denying abilities deserve to exist in a hero shooter, maybe you should go play valorant
they never used to exist before you do realize that right? i'm saying how easy they are to use and how much value they bring isn't healthy for the game. there are already kill denying abilities like ana's sleep dart and zarya's bubbles i don't take issue with.
you should probably learn to play other heroes so you understand the game better than just from lifeweavers/support perspective.
@@arinrobinson3898 im a dps main, i main tracer and ashe and i think playing around life grip is fine
@@bueblird then my channel isn't for you. i highly encourage you to make your own channel though highlighting the things you like about overwatch and make a case for heroes that others may find frustrating.
no one said it does
Easy support heroes or Not enough support players playing the game. There is no in-between :)
Wrong. You can make supports fun and engaging to play while giving them the ability to play make without making them braindead where all they have to do is press a button to get out of jaik for free or use an immortality ability. Sometimes its both. Theres no inbetween for a lot of support players and fun support heroes
I don't believe there has ever been a shortage of support players. I am also not against easier to play support heroes just that they cannot create greater value than the harder to play characters. the entire role is easy and creates insane value without trying so it's a problem and it's a big reason why tank isn't fun and why the game can be frustrating.
@@arinrobinson3898 Oh I do agree it's why I don't really play the game anymore.
Ive just gotten the impression over the years that the interests of the majority of support players are more casual relative to the other roles, not interested in learning or improving...and they probably buy more skins lol but maybe that's just been my experience.
@@VambraceMusic I mean I dont' have data to back that up but i do get that vibe. there's just been so many support skins and easy supports made that have just destroyed the game in terms of competitiveness and fun. there's a lot fewer plays being made now and blizzard seems to be ok sacrificing the tank role to make support the most popular. idk it just kind of seems that way.
People say this as if the dev can’t change the format to fit the queue times better
Supports didn't ruin the game, lazy balance and power creep did.
Lmao, another Kiriko komplainer bites the kunai. I'll send you my suzu through the mail so you can cleanse your frustration and cure your butthurt.
is he wrong? if so, why?
the fact that you're a kiriko main and you have that really creepy anime profile picture makes me think the FBI should really search your hard drive.
@@arinrobinson3898 The FBI, CIA, NSA and even the KYS already searched my hard drive, and they found nothing but 69 petabytes worth of Kiriko pictures from that one funny website. You know the one. But they let me go because I was a fellow part of the high Kiriko aristocracy, much like them.