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What Is It? ELO, Supertramp, XTC, Roxy Music, and 10CC...Prog...Pop...Art Rock...Or What?
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- Опубліковано 12 кві 2024
- Join Pete Pardo and an all-star cast including Brendon Snyder, Scot Lade, and Grant Arthur, as they discuss some of those 'prog adjacent' bands...are they prog, pop, art rock...or what are they exactly?
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Great video, please put these guys together again. Really enjoy Brendon 😊
0:01: 🎵 Exploring the ambiguous classification of iconic bands in the music industry.
5:13: 🎶 Evolution of XTC's music style, impact of band members, and classification of albums.
10:25: 🎵 Differentiating prog rock from pop by the presence of odd time signatures and long jams, exemplified by ELO's approach.
15:36: 🎵 Unique evolution of bands from art rock to pop music, adapting to the times with complex ideas.
20:45: 🎶 Debating the Progressive nature of 10cc and Al Stewart in the realm of music genres.
26:04: 🎶 Exploration of innovative sound production in the studio by bands like Queen, 10cc, and ELO.
31:01: 🎵 Evolution of XTC's music style due to increased resources and creative opportunities.
36:39: 🎸 Influence of Prague Rock in various music genres like New Wave and Pop discussed.
41:33: 🎨 Artful and thoughtful approach in music production reminiscent of Prague rockers in New York City.
47:15: 🎶 Exploring the characteristics of progressive rock bands and welcoming those who partially meet the criteria.
52:31: ⏰ Upcoming events on the Contrarians channel include a premiere, listening party, and possible live chat.
Recapped using Tammy AI
Wow.
Nice job as the minute taker
Franz Kafka's "Metamorphosis" and "Hunger Artist" were two of my favorite Prague rockers.
Yeah, there's nothing quite like a minute-taking AI.
What a great group of panelists!
Grant Arthur has a channel?? I follow the others.
@@asdfzxcv3617 I mostly know Grant from The Contrarians, which has a good amount of overlap with SoT.
@@entil2001 Yes, I know that channel
@@asdfzxcv3617 www.youtube.com/@GrantsRockWarehaus
Interview - "Big Oceans" is awesome! Thanks, Scot! Apparently never released on CD... amazing how so many great albums never found an audience and disappeared into oblivion. One correction, Scot, Interview is from Bath, England... not Long Island.
Ah, my hometown 🙂
When I was young bands like 10CC, Sparks, Roxy Music or Supertramp were looked at as pure pop bands. Their predecessors like the Beatles, The Stones or The Moody Blues had paved the way for a more complex but still very listenable kind of pop. It is significant that we are discussing this bands as being prog or something outside of pop music. The thing is that over the years pop music has become a formula based on the beats per second and not longer on the surprise effect of a more complex sound. The panel mentioned Protools and GarageBand but instead of these programs giving artists the liberty to experiment they are used to create a unisound that is immediately recognised by everyone. You yourself sometimes complain about stereotype productions when talking about some new heavy metal records. When creativity and experimentation become normality again we won’t ask ourselves whether some music is prog or not. It will all become pop music again.
I think Ambrosia would have also fit in with this topic.
Totally agree! Ambrosia's excellent debut album is best described as Prog, but of course they're best known as a Soft Rock/Pop hit making band.
24:47 24:49 24:50 Ambrosia piacevole soft art rock Non progressive rock canonico!!!!!!!! E cosi anchr per i 10cc ecco forse per quanto riguarda invece i primi ELO un soft prog rock e anche per i SUPERTRAMP penso sia così!!!!!!! Io ci aggiungerei anche gli Alan Parsons Project forse leggermente più Prog d quelli citati prima e per finire anche i ROXY MUSIC iniziali prima di convertirsi ad un Pop rock assai sofisticato, potevano essere definiti o un ART GLAM ROCK oppure un GLAM PROG ROCK!!!!!!!!! Più o meno è la stessa cosa!!!!!!!! Anche gli SPARKS e i TUBES possono rientrare in quel soft prog o Art GLAM ROCK!!!!!!!! Ma anche DAVID BOWIE rip può rientrarci, in fin dei conti ha collaborato con artisti musicisti che vengono proprio dal Progressive Rock e AVANGUARDIA ovvero ROBERT FRIPP e BRIAN ENO il quale ha avuto anche un breve passato con i primi Roxy Music!!!!!!!!!!
Luv the. Rhode Island album
Yes
@@christophercoles4401 Ambrosia's first two and last one are Prog
Yes. As an inspiring horticulturist as a young man, I was more than compelled to give Country Life a listen.
In a 1977 interview, when Ambrosia was asked about their relationship to ELP or Genesis, they said they had nothing to do with "British Art Rock." (The term "Prog" apparently did not exist at the time.) They said they had everything to do with The Beatles.
Around the same time, John Lennon was doing a radio show where he featured the bands he felt were carrying on where The Beatles left off. These were bands like ELO, 10cc, Supertramp, Queen, etc.. You get the picture. So what we are talking about here is Beatle Based Pop.
But, theoretically, British Art Rock also stems from Paul McCartney's statement that "Pop Music is the Classical Music of today." And directly there after you have all these bands striving to take Rock Music above and beyond the common pop song, stretching out into suites and concertos. But is that "Prog?" The way you guys talk about it, I don't think so.
So I collected every Alison Steele transcription I could get my hands on from back in the day, as she is one of the few original Progressive Rock DJ's who left an accessible record of what was actually going on under the term "Progressive Rock." And I find that she includes all of the bands discussed here under her Progressive umbrella, and quite a few others that no one today would even remotely associate with "Prog."
Yes, Genesis and ELP are there, of course, treated as being of equal stature with anyone else making album rock with unique or forward-thinking creativity. So, it seems that Progressive Rock was not a sound or a set of rules. It was the initiative to follow Paul McCartney's statement which embodied itself in late 60's to mid 70's and beyond Album Rock. "Prog" is therefore a lie, and that's why everyone is confused.
This was all recent lost history to me when I started buying my own albums in the late 70's. Terms like Progressive Rock and Art Rock were unknown to me. They were no longer spoken in pop culture. But I had an interest in music that combined Classical with Rock. So I collected a lot of the bands that today theoretically define "Prog." But no one else I've encountered acknowledges that Classical influence has anything to do with what defines Prog. In fact, many don't like the Classical influence and outright dismiss it.
I have come to the conclusion that the kind of music I like is not Prog. Art Rock might be a better term, as Classical content kind of suggests artistic intent. But a requirement for "odd time signatures and long jams" to me suggests "Progressive Jazz Rock." Something I have only limited interest in. If a band puts Jazz, Folk and a lot of other influences in with the Classical and Rock, I'm cool with it. But the closer things get to what is being called "Prog" these days, the less tolerance I have for it.
It irks me that I have to look for the music I like in the Prog Fandom, because I like what Alison Steele offered as Progressive Rock. I like the genuine creativity and freeform combination of musical ideas that you get with 70's Album Rock. I like the idea that people actually had to work to get the sounds they wanted back then, making everything somewhat unique. Today, when it would be easy to get any sound one wanted, all anyone seems to do is fall back on long established sounds, which is regressive rather than progressive, and mostly uninspired.
Whereas Alison Steele saw "Progressive Rock" as a spirit of creativity rather than a genre with a distinctive sound, "Prog" is just that, a static genre with expected sounds derived from a handful of 70's bands. Prog is the antithesis of Progressive Rock, and that's why I generally don't like it, while at the same time liking most of the bands Prog claims to be founded on.
So, under these conditions, ELO, 10cc, Queen, Supertramp, etc. are certainly not Prog. But then neither are Yes, Genesis, ELP, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, etc.. Prog has lifted from these bands certain sounds to create a static genre, but it has not lifted their spirit, creativity, artistic integrity, their wealth of interest in other genres, or their spirituality.
Prog wants simple expectations that are easy to fulfill. So that you may hear certain sounds and say, "That sounds like Prog, therefore I like it." And consequently, you may listen to ELO and say, "This checks none of my Prog boxes." And you'd be absolutely right. But in my collection, ELO sits right beside ELP, and neither are ever heard to complain that they don't belong together.
Hey Brendon great to see you teaming up with Mr Pete Pardo again and you’re in great company with Grant and Scott. A lot of musical knowledge on this panel today 😃✊
A very interesting topic with an outstanding panel. Two words come to mind with these bands. Creativity and Evolution. And I have the utmost respect for bands who take chances. XTC I have loved since 1979, and they are definitely beyond just one genre. Only their first 2 albums are largely similar, and there are still very distinct differences between them. Every album explores different sounds and themes, and are truly unique. And their Dukes of Stratosphere releases are outstanding. They created 1960's psychedelic music that I actually enjoy more than the bands from that era. Other artists and bands which are impossible to stuff in a box are The Billy Nayer Show, Snakefinger, The Residents, Sparklehorse, and Ween. Gratitude gentlemen!
Supertramp are easily my favorite out of that group of bands. Breakfast In America is an all time classic. I said it in chat and I'll say it again, my only gripe with the album is they should've put "Take The Long Way Home" on side 1. Sure it'd probably be THE front loaded album of all time but what a front! Flawless album side imo:
1. Gone Hollywood
2. Logical Song
3. Goodbye Stranger
4. Breakfast In America
5. Take The Long Way Home
I was a Supertramp fan until Breakfast. Did not like the change to pop songs or the songs on that album.
Love seeing some GBV representation on SOT!
That was a fun conversation! I'm not much of a prog fan, but 10cc? Sparks? Be Bop Deluxe? Supertramp? Steely Dan? Now you're talking! As far as categorization is concerned, people can do whatever they want, but I've realized that it doesn't work for me. On several occasions I've considered rearranging my music collection by categories, or decades, or what have you. Because, you know, sometimes you're in a certain kind of musical mood, or you're just looking for a reason to fondle your albums! But the efforts were always stymied, and very early into the process: I'd look at my Bowie albums and realize I was stumped. How do you categorize Bowie as anything but Bowie? Same goes for 10cc (one of my all-time faves, at least the original 4-member version of the band). They are 10cc; they fit into no other category. So I've pretty much stuck with an alphabetical arrangement and resisted the lure of categorization.
I read your comment and l have thought of rearranging my albums into categories many times. In the end like you l stuck to an alphabetical order. I know most times what sort of music l want to listen to and usually find what I'm looking for right away. You also mentioned 10cc, a band that I've enjoyed listening to for many years, although I've got many of their studio albums it's the first two that l enjoy the most, short witty songs that l never tire of. For me with the later albums they were almost trying to be too clever with longer songs and had lost something the first two albums had in spades. Having said that Blackmail from The Original Soundtrack is my favourite 10cc tune.😅
@@keithjones7390 I wonder if their reputation for being "clever" raised the stakes too high. "Blackmail"? That song is on fire! But it's amazing that they have only one song that sounds like that. In fact I wonder if their eclecticism hurt the band's popularity, at least in the U.S. -- most Americans who bought The Original Soundtrack probably expected an album's worth of songs in the vein of "I'm Not In Love." But 10cc never did the same thing twice. Until the split, that is.
Wow! Sea of tranquility is so enjoyable. The guests are fantastic and just keep getting better. From this episode to the review crew and prog seat and Hudson Valley! Whew! And of course Martin! Cheers to you Pete! Just awesome
ELO was probably my introduction to prog, which at that time I knew as classical rock. They got more pop, but I still think they have that foundation.
In my garage band daze, we listened to ON THE THIRD DAY ("Ma-Ma-Ma Belle"). One of the guys in the band saw ELO open for ________? On & on about you have never see anybody play a cello like those guys in ELO.
One album that got me into a lot of these bands is the soundtrack "Times Square" from 1980. It has songs by Roxy Music, Joe Jackson, Ramones, The Cure, The Pretenders, Gary Numan, Talking Heads, XTC and Patti Smith Group among others.
Some Al Stewart's albums were produced by Alan Parsons, which sounded progressive.
Enjoyed the topic and crew - Always dig it when Pete has three guys talking music. Need top do it again with this group soon. Also a shout out to Jamie Lazlo: Condolences for your loss. You're in my prayers.
A monthly show with this all star cast needs to happen.
All great bands (XTC being godly status, the Beatles of the 80s imo).
I would say all could be considered "prog adjacent" to keep things simple.
To narrow down, I would classify them as:
ELO = 1st two are prog, then after morphed into progressive pop/rock
Supertramp = progressive pop/rock
10CC = art rock/pop
Roxy Music - art rock/pop
XTC = Early 3 lps are post punk, then into areas of progressive, psychedelic and baroque pop
Very cool topic. You could even say "all of the above" for every one of those bands.
I think of them as hybrids.
Supertramp ELO 10cc { have all their Albums } & XTC is great but not every Album is good to my ears. All 4 are Prog Adjacent / Art Rock. Now as for Roxy Music I only know the songs I heard on the radio . I am a fan of all four of your guys UA-cam channels. Your keeping the music alive & turning on great music. Thanks for another great show!
An even earlier example of what you've been discussing guy's, Family, a wonderful UK band active from 1968 to 1973 with complex song arrangements and a plethora of instruments including; hammond, mellotron, flute and even a xylophone.
Great episode. Brilliant interaction and knowledge. As a 70 year old Brit who lived through the genesis of all those band I would say that all four of the featured bands were unique for their time and thus they progressed the music of the day. Prog Rock? No. Progressive yes.
Respectfully disagree with your assessment as it pertains to Roxy Music live during the 74-76 period. Give a listen to Hempstead 3/8/76, Newcastle 10/28/74, or Wembley 10/17/75. Songs like Sentimental Fool, Prairie Rose, Mother of Pearl, Every Dream Home a Heartache, Whirlwind, Bittersweet, etc. are as prog as prog gets but supercharged with healthy doses of warped psychedelia and pure metallic energy. 'Viva' is simply not a fair representation of one of the greatest live acts ever of that era.
Godley and Creme. Manzanera's early solo work (801). Even Talking Heads (Remain in Light in particular). All explorations in how to bend and warp the pop form. Bowie?
That's a fun discussion. I'm a fan of all those bands for sure. I'm of the feeling that categorization is a bit nebulous and arbitrary although it has a place. One band that wasn't mentioned, but very well could have been is the Moody Blues. Mellotron - check. Orchestration - check. Odd time signatures - not so much. Big concepts - you betcha.
I like the Martin Poppoff term,"Smarty-pants rock"./Smarty-pants Pop.
I think each of those bands are a genre in themselves. As far as defining my favourite band E.L.O., it's a tough call, especially if you go through their whole catalogue from start to finish and even within individual albums themselves (like Face the Music).
Nice to see Sparks mentioned. Still going strong, last 3 albums top 10 in the UK. Kimono My House is great, but the follow-up Propaganda is even better, and Indiscreet (1975) produced by Tony Visconti is absolutely mind-blowing in its complexity.
Check out Sparks!!!
Excellent Sparks comments, I totally agree!
If someone is a newbie to these bands. I recommend getting a Best Of or some kind of greatest hits first to see if you would like them or not. I have all of the ELO. And a lot of Supertramp. And a few of Roxy Music. And just a best of from 10cc. Its a artsy pop is what I would call it.
I see your point about buying a greatest hits album, and you mentioned you have a best of 10cc album. But as with a lot of bands it's their 'deep cuts' that l love the most, tracks like Hotel, Baron Samedi, Somewhere in Hollywood, Speed Kills, Ships Don't Disappear In the Night, Sand in My Face, Blackmail just to name a few. The singles you hear on a best of album are usually the 'safe bet' songs that are going to appeal to a wider market, album tracks often more interesting. 10cc's first two albums are still my absolute favourites.
@@keithjones7390 yeah I need to take a deeper dive into 10CC albums.
I actually met the members of Roadmaster in a record store. They got their name from a type of bicycle used in the Little 500 race held at Indiana University. Their original lead singer(Adam Smasher) became a well known DJ in Indianapolis.
Bonjour de France.
Je suis fan de RoadMaster, Hey World est une chanson fantastique, mélodie et guitare 🎸
@@manugrandest1683 Excellent! Great to hear it!
What is Wire ? That is the best question. Just listen to their post 1990 catalogue . Great music definitively
Excellent question, and certainly far beyond a single genre.
good example.
Prog Punk. Like The Stranglers
They had a really cool song a few years back called "Cactused", very artsy prog
@@senorfunball I'll check it out
Great show and panel. Love these kind of topics.
"The number one-selling album of 1982 was not Thriller-well, because it came out in November..." 🤣🤣🤣 Scott has a more than solid sense of humor!
Didn't get as chaotic as i thought it would. Nice work gentlemen 👍 Great upcoming shows
haha... but close!
Growing up in the 80s XTC were seen as a college rock/alternative band. While more in the pop vein, they were grouped together and played on 120 minutes with bands like Echo and the Bunnymen, Smiths, REM, Tears for Fears, etc. I’ve always considered them “alternative” if I had to place them in a category. However, the only category that matters to me is whether the music is good or not, and XTC always delivers.
4 of my favourite guys on YT. Glad I wasn't drinking anything - "...Scott hears Prog in Firefall, dammit".
Camera looks great, Pete.
Scott hears prog in the Osmonds!
Fun panel, i would love to be on one of these.
I have all these albums, I think I'll listen to them all by going through each artists first albums and then all the second albums and so on.
Great video
Regardless of their later output, ELO's roots were in the pop of the late 60s. Both Wood and Lynn strived to throw off the shackles of the two and a half minute song. For the origins of ELO listen to What? from Moving On by the Move - a pocket masterpiece. Is it coincidence that you are attempting to pigeonhole and categorize English bands? The closest, I would suggest, North American musical output (beyond Zappa) got to be indefinable were Kansas and Happy The Man.
Awesome show guys. Love all of y'alls channels. So cool to see you 4 in the same room
This episode became The Contrarians show and to me art rock is a classy style kind of a rock.
Grew up in Indiana listening to Roadmaster and saw them live many times. Great band! Adam Smasher was also a popular DJ on Indy radio.
Excellent panel and excellent topic!
Great combination of guests and great discussion. I'm not even a massive fan of ALL of these artists but I do really respect the approach of any band that seem unable to stay neatly in one box.
It's usually the case that the best bands operate outside of strict genre rules, either because they inadvertently "invented" the genre and forever resisted a press-created term that would paint them into a corner, or they were just artistically restless throughout and people found it diffucult to keep up.
Unfortunately some bands get rewarded by fans by sticking strictly to one very narrow sound, and are treated with suspicion if they decide to branch out.
How about The Sensational AlexHarvey Band. Perfect band for this topic. Cheers from The Captain
the tale of the giant stoneater is all over the place, its brilliant
@@johnr4459 Yes Sir!! SAHB rules like Vambo
I started calling bands like this (Probably because Supertramp were the first one I got into) “electric piano prog” not that they all play electric piano, but like lighter progressive rock. I also add in Manfred Manns Earth Band, Alan Parsons Project, Golden Earring, and to a degree Though more jazz, Steely Dan.
Prog pop is a good description of these bands,especially 10cc.Good discussion.👍
This was great! Just need a list of every band that was named in it. I forgot to take notes haha.
Actually, being around back when these bands were popular in the early in mid 70s, there wasn’t as much of this genre framing. A lot of it just fell under the label rock. growing up in the Bay Area and living in Lake Tahoe I listen to a lot of FM radio. They played a lot of the music the show is covering in this episode. The word, Prague Rock wasn’t even around back then. Some of the more urban suburban radio stations played more of the hard rock. but a lot of these eclectic FM stations played this type of music along with all the standards. there was a bit of a softer side to the music like Pablo Cruz or Boz Scaggs or the Michael McDonald Doobie Brothers. I remember seeing little feet with Lol George and Electric Light Orchestra on the same bill and ELO just was kind of a weird experience with the strings. I think if you looked at the billing at places like Winterland you’d see these eclectic type rock bands, maybe a jazz band and maybe a hard rock band all in the same bill. by the early 80s everything changed it was much more categorized .Check out these actual shows. Black Sabbath, Yes, Wild Turkey- Humble Pie, Slade, Steely Dan- Be Bop Deluxe, Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers, Yesterday & Today- King Crimson, Malo, Fairport Convention, Notes: Also: R.E.O.- Santana, Bobby Womack, Focus - Sha Na Na, E.L.O., James Montgomery Band- Mott The Hoople, Bachman Turner Overdrive, Aerosmith-Montrose, Link Wray, Little Feat- REO Speedwagon, Blackmore's Rainbow, No Dice- Steve Miller, Mike Bloomfield, Roxy Music- Kiss, Tubes, Rush Mahavishnu Orchestra, Captain Beefheart, Tranquility. Joe Cocker & The Grease Band, Little Richard, Move, and. Mothers Of Invention, Foghat, Reuben & The Jets. Scott have another Mountain Dew.
Rick Wakeman thought Yes was playing Soft Rock back in the day. Even when Prog Metal was really taking off I thought of it as Power Metal more sophisticated. Until I heard Dream Theater, They were Prog! But I really didn't pay attention much to labels until just over 20 years ago.
Ι think it's time to make a show also for the first prog songs which may have preceded any fully realized prog rock albums (Nice, Procol Harum, Soft Machine) stuff like that.
One of my all time favorite bands is Ambrosia. If you followed their whole discog, and you're a fan, genreizing them will blow your mind up.
I think this show was proge. Four men talking sometimes at the same time in nice harmony. Thanks! :)
ProgArchives uses "Prog Related".....but then they also have "Crossover Prog"....
I think Sparks is Art rock. I have a t-shirt from Sparks merch that says "Let's Art Rock!
Loved this talk. I think supertramp has pop and prog. Certainly Rudy and Fools overture are prog, and the guitar solo on Goodbye Stranger is great.
I love this stuff!!!
“no prescription needed” kinda music.
ELO, definitely prog Scot, Eldorado and On The Third Day. 👌👌
Hey Scot! You and Brendon made this a great show. Nice job!!👍☮️👑😎
Great show Scot, and excellent panel. How about a top 10 Dukes of Stratosphere tracks episode?!!!
@@toddhill7483 The Dukes!!!!
Awesome discussion and panel . I watch Brendon’s channel all the time to check out what’s new
Hey how is everyone doing? Stay frosty my friends 🤘🏼🤘🏼
It's funny how much Prog Pop has become more and more embraced by the Prog community in recent years. Acts like the ones mentioned along with Queen, Ambrosia, and bands that came after like Tears for Fears, China Crisis, Talk Talk, XTC, Radiohead, etc only paved the way further by incorporating Prog into Pop. Porcupine Tree, Riverside, Dear Hunter, Fish on Friday, Kyros, Big Big Train, Muse, and many others are able to only boost their popularity with this formula while gaining new fans and keeping the Prog Community happy at the same time.
Sparks for the win! 😊
haha
What a great cast. I am so impressed...
What about SAGA
Good one. A lot of styles and influences in the Saga material.
Saga is Prog. These are bands that might be Prog. It's funny that people are saying that Asia isn't Prog, because they don't have long songs. Saga doesn't either
Duncan Browne would've fit in this conversation. Check out his 1979 album "Streets of Fire". Very sophisticated pop/rock performed by a killer lineup (incl. Simon Phillips).
This was the BEST show! Now we’re getting great conversations as opposed to boring opinions.
Loved this show & topic. Great panel! I was aware of these bands back in the day. To me & my friends we thought ELO & Supertramp were simply rock, in the same way as Be Bop Deluxe & Queen. XTC were a New Wave band (UK definition). 10cc were a pop band, probably because of the hits in the UK. Roxy Music, like Bowie, started as Glam Rock (watch those TOTP videos), but when they reformed with Trash they became New Romantics🤣!
I like the sub genres they came up with today. Prog adjacent and prog pop seem to fit well, even with contemporary bands. In the 90s, Radiohead was clearly a Brit pop/rock band. But when Kid A dropped in 2000, it sounded like Can and Kraftwerk. That doesn’t mean they became a Krautrock band but they certainly didn’t resemble Brit rock anymore. Prog adjacent or art rock would work.
And to Scott’s point that prog has its tentacles everywhere, consider the fact that hip hop since the 90s has sampled tons of prog. So whether you like the genre or not, hip hop has definitely kept the sounds of prog in the mainstream, albeit in a different way.
Also, after seeing Scott chug that Mountain Dew it’s now evident where he gets his energy from!
Do a 10cc top ten soon.
Love to see that!
Me too. I recently got a 10cc box set that has from their debut to 1992's Meanwhile
Listen, Talking Heads and King Crimson are actually somewhat adjacent. Fine line between Brian Eno/ Pink Floyd/ king crimson. I mean, how do you classify Beefheart or Zappa?
Beefheart...mutant blues...
Roxy Music is also very adjacent to King Crimson both personnel wise and also musically. Wetton played bass with Roxy on their late 74 tour, and Jobson was utilized for overdubs on the USA album...and then they formed UK with Bruford. If you haven't heard Roxy live from this era you haven't really heard how absurdly psychedelic and avant they were. Check out Hempstead 3/8/76 or Newcastle 10/28/74 and your mind will be blown. 'Viva' is not a fair representation of how incredible of a live band they were.
It's fun to listen to conversations I've had in my own head for the last 40 years. 10cc is a great example and Supertramp sold out with "Breakfast"...but it is still a great album. ?
With the orchestra elements could ELO be the godfathers of symphonic rock in a strange way
When formed, The Electric. Light Orchestra's mission statement was Rock &Roll played with Classical instrumentation in opposition and response to ELP's classical elements in a Rock setting- the band being 'progressive' in their original intent rather than adhering to the current broad yet vague definition of 'Prog' as a genre.
All the bands mentioned have produced tracks that could easily be labelled prog but probably more that are just an arty take on pop (some tracks) or rock (other tracks) That's why they're difficult to categorise. They are all good bands with even the more straightforward pop tracks having some idiosyncrasy that appeals to rock fans. If they have to have a category, Prog-related or Prog-adjacent is as good as any.
I've used the term "Progressive Pop" for all of this kind of stuff for years. It satisfies me, and I just mix it in with all the other stuff I listen to.
Alan Parsons Project would fit into this discussion.
I don't know much XTC, but for me they're too abrasive to call art rock. That's just my categorization, though, as is this: ELO and Supertramp definitely qualify as art rock, along with Roxy Music. Everyone looks at it differently, which makes these conversations fun.
I consider art rock to be music that ranges from rock to pop, but where progressive is more about experimental structures and sound, art rock focuses on the sound, and tends to mainly be in more accessible slices with really good, clear production. There's a lot in common between the two, and bands like Yes and Genesis go back and forth sometimes. There are definitely prog tracks on art band records and art tracks on prog albums.
I can't speak about 10CC, having only heard the hits, but will be checking out the deep cuts soon. I would have called them pop, but am reserving judgement until I've heard more than two songs.
I love art rock and have thrown in several other bands in the genre, so I can play them all on shuffle: Alan Parsons, later Genesis, Al Stewart and Gerry Rafferty, Camel (not that prog to me), later Manfred Mann, Steely Dan, first two Yes, first three Deep Purple, Marillion, Steely Dan.
A quick mention to the part of your comment on 10cc. I'd strongly recommend a listen to some of their 'deep cuts' like with many bands it's those lesser known songs l love the most. A few of theirs that l like the most are Hotel, Baron Samedi, Somewhere in Hollywood, Sand in My Face, Johnny Don't Do It, Speed Kills and Blackmail.
@@keithjones7390 thanks, I will check those out.
If you consider XTC "abrasive", definitely check out the largely pastoral releases Apple Venus Volume 1 and Skylarking. Just a friendly suggestion. Cheers.
XTC could be called abrasive, but they eventually morphed into what I think is called "chamber pop." See Skylarking, Oranges & Lemons, and Nonsuch. Especially Nonsuch!
@@toddhill7483 I did, but I still feel the same. Even the pastoral stuff has an angular, shrill feel to me in the vocals and the production. Sounds like there's a lot of musical content going on, so I think I get why they are well-loved.
It's probably perfectly reasonable to define them as art rock, now that I listened to more of it. It's just going in a different direction than the art rock I tend to like. Nothing wrong with that.
This has been one of the best discussions that I have viewed. All very knowledgeable in their own way. These guys are great on their own channel. To be brought together, just great stuff!!!
You forgot "Saga" from Toronto. ok, there are extraordinary great here in Germany, but they should be known to you, too.
And what about Dave Gregory's transition to Big Big Train - What a fantastic band full of the englishness Genesis had in them!
This episode is about bands that might be Prog. Saga is Prog
100% agree with Grant on Crime Of The Century versus Breakfast In America. I don't see what's so drastically different about them. They sound like they were made by the exact same band from the same era.
I've always felt that Breakfast is different to Crime with its slightly 'poppier' tunes, there's nothing quite like the darker Asylum, Rudy or the title track. Even the album covers hint of what's within the record, Crime where there is nothing remotely humourous as with the Breakfast cover. Mind you l enjoy both albums equally and have done since l bought them all those years ago.
@@keithjones7390 You are absolutely correct about them being different in terms of overall tone, but that's about it as far as I'm concerned. The sound and compositional style of both albums are pretty much identical if you ask me.
All fantastic bands that created some of the most interesting music of the 70's. They all get featured in Prog magazine so they must all have elements of prog. I think the term Prog Pop is an excellent term as it gives the impression its a bit more sugar coated. I always feel as I have to defend ELO, as a lot of people get very snobby over them because they did arguably go too commercial with Discovery and Xanadu albums that could have been released by the Bee Gees or Abba. I certainly find there earlier work more interesting up to Out Of The Blue which was my intro to Prog. I then moved onto Genesis Nursery Crime.
No conclusions, but a very enjoyable episode. Great fun. Cheers.
I watch Brendon Snyder's channel in addition to Sea Of Tranquility! Nice to see Brendon here!
Interesting topic.
Out of all these bands, I was into The Electric Light Orchestra the most. The first album I bought by them was probably A New World Record, and my favorite was always Eldorado. Eldorado to me was the peak of what they set out to be combining classical and rock. It was also the last album where I could still hear the bands string section play along with the full orchestra. I do not think the string players even played on any of the albums after it, other than Mik Kaminsky on a few songs doing a solo. Their older stuff was proggier and less commercial, but I would not call them full blown prog. I also think Supertramp's Crime Of The Century is the proggiest album in their catalog and that is what separated it from Breakfast In America. Roxy Music was completely different after Siren. By the way, I do not consider Love Is The Drug disco. I would call it funk. Asia was disappointing when I got their first album, but they grew on me. You just have to get over that it is not prog, it is prog influenced pop
ock. I think their worse album was their second one, and the ones they released after the original band reformed are their best. I also would not give The Beatles credit for inventing prog. I would give that to either The Moody Blies or King Crimson. I loved 10cc's hits but did not listen to much of their stuff otherwise. I loved Good Morning Judge. I never got into XTC until recently. I love the music but just cannot get into the vocals. One band that seems to never get talked about is The Strawbs. They did a lot of different types of music, but put out some great prog albums. Listed to Hero and Heroine. To me that is one of the best prog albums in rock history. They just had a different background than most prog bands starting off as a folk band. Closest thing I can think to them were Jethro Tull. How about some love for The Strawbs!!??😃
Scot and Brendon made this a great show!👍😎
Supertramp is the most prog out of those four bands in my opinion.
At the very least. My favorite band of this line up is Supertramp. Prog yes ' Awesome yes
Supertramp changed after Ken Scott left after the Crisis album was completed
Does Utopia fit in all this? Definitely their first 3 or so albums!
And City Boy
Prog pop is really its own genre. Whatever you call prog adjacent is usually prog pop. All of these bands you mentioned (10cc, XTC, Supertramp, ELO and Roxy Music) would be considered prog pop. Also Asia, 80s Yes, Beach Boys on Pet Sounds, certain Beatles albums, Queen, Abba, Tears for Fears, 80s Genesis, the Buggles, Missing Persons, Utopia, the Moody Blues, Procol Harum, Kate Bush, Sparks, Fiona Apple, Godley and Creme, Peter Gabriel, Todd Rundgren, Styx, Jellyfish and probably hundreds of others.
Love it thank you!
Jethro Tull is hard to categorized and Journey started as Prog and changed to Pop and some Easy Listening.
Even The Police, although very different from the bands you’re discussing,they blended soo many genres it makes them very hard to categorize.
Any band that I'm not really sure where they fit, to me, just gets called 'art-rock,' and then maybe they have leanings in one way or another. I think, really, good music is good music, but genres help give our brain a bit of a headstart with what to expect.
Great panel, loved the discussion.
That was fun. Of course, rock didn't invent ' progressive elements' such as odd time, complex harmony, exotic instruments, long form compositions, orchestration, etc - that all came from classical, jazz and pop. IMO, the first two coherent progressive albums in popular modern music are Pet Sounds and Laura Nyro's revolutionary conceptual Eli and the Thirteenth Confession (1968), which influenced scores of songwriters, including Steely Dan. The most progressive track is probably December's Boudoir, which includes free time, classical orchestration, jazz drumming, complex harmony with about 35 chords, modulation, wide intervals, poetic lyrics, and like the James Bond theme, ends on a minor major chord. And the song also has an unusual structure. Nyro " probably influenced more successful songwriters than anyone " Elton John, 2007. Nyro was a huge influence on Todd Rundgren.
Well, this was rather timely, since I just recently listened to Eli and the Thirteenth Confession after quite a while. A brilliant album, one of the best of the '60s IMO. "Eli's Comin'" is my favorite song; so many things happening inside those (slightly under) four minutes, a gorgeous pop symphony à la "Good Vibrations" and "A Day in the Life"! Also, lyrically "The Confession" is fairly controversial stuff for that time in terms of female sexuality ("super ride inside my lovething" etc. Okay Laura! 😀).
@@askoholli9306 A great coincidence! I agree 100% with your remarks.
Queen's genre is pop-metal-karaoke-music-hall-show-tunes
As a fan of all,in particular XTC,they are all English Art Rock
First things first. This panel has a chemistry worthy of their own bi-weekly series. I'm not sure what you'd call it but, I think there's a quality of conversation here that's above some other panel shows you run across on the internet and it'd be a shame for this to be a one off. Having said that, I enjoyed this topic quite a bit too. The John Payne led Asia did eventually change their name to GPS awhile after Geoff reunited the original lineup. The album they released, Windows to the Soul, is great. I really enjoy the two Asia albums he recorded with the band as well. Steely Dan is the poster child for "what genre are they". Their existence defies logic. How does a band sing from the point of view of a derranged fugitive involved in a standoff with the police that, presumably, is going to result in the death of the protagonist? Don't Take Me Alive is one of the catchiest earworms in their catalog but, it's very much a topic that no one sings about at all. Kid Charlemagne is another dodgey subject where a drug dealing chemist is making sheets of acid for a living and distributing them (among other places) through his friends in the Grateful Dead at their concerts. I'd love to see a Steely Dan offshoots album ranking at some point. Look at al the musicians who appeared on their albums!
Magazine!!💛😀
I like a lot of these bands. They are not like other bands and are all different to each other. They each have specific and diverse eras and albums. I suppose that if you are deep into prog, you judge other music and bands through that prism. Incidentally, Eric Stewart co-founded Strawberry Studios in Stockport , Greater Manchester. If you want a bit of a giggle, as a fan of 10cc, listen to Neil Sedaka’s That’s Where the Music Takes Me, which was produced there , and sounds like 10cc are his backing band, just like Bernard and Nile from Chic were for early Madonna.
10cc were indeed Sedaka's backing band for two of his albums: Solitaire and The Tra La Days Are Over.