I owned a music store from 1993-97. You wouldn’t believe the obstacles I ran into in those 4 years. You needed Billboard magazine to know what to buy. A year subscription was hundreds of dollars. Cassette tapes became phased out, leaving tons of dead inventory. CD’s still growing, so having to buy artists on both cd and tape, was expensive. Walmart selling cheaper than I could buy from wholesale. Then Circuit City, Best Buy came to town. I got out before Napster, which gave it all free. That was the death of the music store
I think it was fans vs. industry greed is what ended the independent stores. The industry's biggest stake in the heart of the stores was what you said, wholesaling to Wal-Mart for pennies. The customers always take the path of least resistance, so Napster/torrents were inevitable. The real moment the industry showed its willingness to degrade itself was the fake anti-longbox campaign. I think they had Don Henley and a few others promoting it "for the environment". In truth, 75% of the manufacturing cost of cd's was the cardboard longbox. I think it was something like $1.50 for the longbox and $0.50 for the disc and jewel case. This is 35 year old remembering, so please understand.
The whole napster things started wit 2 college kids who couldn't afford the cd, one had it and the other one did....so they shared.....and it's all history from there.......and then there's Bit Torrent's...but that's another story
Yes! Listening used to be a much more intentional activity. You paid attention. Hours spent on the bed, gatefold album open, liner notes and lyrics out. That was the visual stimulation that went along with the music of the day. Miss those days, but cherish the memories and routines of my youth that, if subjected to today's listeners, would never be fully appreciated (they'd get bored soooo quickly sans screen).
Most of my favorite albums are ones I was disappointed with on the first listen (Faith No More's Angel Dust comes to mind), but because I paid good money for them I forced myself to give them numerous listens and grew to appreciate the more challenging music. Now, with youtube and internet listening, if a song doesn't grab me within a minute, I'm on to the next one. And let's be honest: most songs that grab you immediately are pretty simplistic and shallow.
that is true! today, I buy music, if the song doesn't grab me almost immediately, I start to look at my phone, what else is going on, and at times, the song finishes and I really didn't hear a dang thing other than the first few seconds. in the old days pre-cellphone, I'd have to have the tv on or grab something to read (assuming I'm alone), in which case, why am I listening to this song if the tv is on... and tv wasn't like now, only 4 channels, during daytime, I just didn't give two craps about what was on, soaps, informercials, news/farm reports, and after school, after brady bunch/star trek/gilligans island, didn't care until 7pm when the primetime shows came on. I either read or listened to radio/records and later in my car, radio, cassette tapes and later, cd's. So yeah, read everything on the cover, learned the lyrics of the songs I liked, grew to appreciate the non-hit songs, or how far to fast-forward if the song sucked (in my opinion). Today, new music from new artists, I love Amyl & the sniffers, I think Amy is the lead singer (last name? uh, um, not lee...). anyone else in the band? uh, nope. Drain? uh, I know what the singer looks like. great songs but band names? I'm not including jinjer, I do know Tatiana's first name, but they are Ukrainian names, I am sure I'd butcher the the spellings let alone how to pronounce them. maybe I'm not a superfan...
Like bands like led zeppelin back in the day didn’t have air play on the radio,it was all hear say and buying their albums, and going to their shows and they were huge to say the least.
Owning vs Renting. Investment vs. Borrowing.... this applies to real world economics. Owning Capital vs. Experiential Subscription with nothing to show for it, other than the short term "social media" driven high of being able to brag ... "Look at me... I was there".
My father and I would rarely admit to enjoying each others' music, so when he finally broke that silence by telling me certain songs I was playing that he enjoyed, I didn't try to further piss him off. That was never the goal. Instead, I would try to find even more common ground. It became a great challenge, trying to figure him out, and what I loved that he also enjoyed. I thought it was a great honor to have his approval. He once came home and 'caught' me listening to one of his old albums, and he never said a word, but I could tell he was pleased. I'm 63 now, and I really miss him.
I loved listening to Zep, Pink Floyd, The Stones, AC/DC with my father and he also introduced me to some country, which I mostly rejected at the time (sadly) but enjoy now. I also miss my father.
Your comment was wholly personal. Nice to know you loved and wanted your dad's approval. It's also worth letting you know that it's really not our business to know (unless you just like disclosing your emotions). Stay well
If you apply that to an audience you can incredibly increase “gratuities”. Something I learned years ago. Who am I playing for, myself? If that’s the case, why would I expect people to throw money at me for basically doing the same thing as I would at home?
It's funny as all three of my kids ( 14, 19 & 21) all love the same music as I do. They all listen to everything rock/pop from the 70's, 80's & 90's while still enjoying more modern stuff. My 19 year old is obsessed with Def Leppard & AC/DC. They never tried to rebel against me in regards to music. But we always have music of some type playing and different instruments around the house they have access to.
It's pretty telling that social media sites refer to music and visuals (video and photos) as "content" rather than calling them art. That tells you everything you need to know about how modern audiences are being conditioned to appreciate art.
@jemimallah Interesting you think this is a boomer comment. Try this on for size: imagine you get the chance to meet your favorite musician face-to-face. Would you say to them “I love your content”. I think you’d say “I love your music / your work / your art.” Id seriously doubt you’d call their work “content” to their face.
There is a direct correlation between the death of the CD / physical media sales and the rise of concert ticket prices. Would love to hear the inside of that.
Live shows were used as promotions in the 70s and 80s. At a time when albums were around £2 , concert tickets were around £1 - and I mean for headline acts - Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Genesis, Rory Gallagher, Neil Young etc - there was usually at least one support act. There were sometimes 'Label' tours with 3 or 4 acts. If you want a one word answer for the price increase - it's the Ticketmaster monopoly that owns the venues, the ticketing and a huge chunk of the money that bands try to make on their Merch. John Oliver covers this in one of his programs.
You are correct, and there is a direct corrolation. Record companies were making so much profit off album sales that the labels would subsidize the tours as a loss leader advertising for the band... So you would go buy that cd/cassette etc. And of course the bands were in the hook to pay that back. Even worse was paying all that back didn't come from the $19 of profit off the $20 CD. It came from the 25 to 50 cents the artist made per CD sold. And if you got 50 cents per sale you were a big dog... Like Metallica or Madonna. Aside from the ticketmaster gouging... Prices are still high because now we are paying the whole cost. That isn't just putting on the show, it's paying and feeding and hoteling the entire staff. Another interesting evolution of this is most bands are getting near 100% of the ticket money for a concert. The venue makes it's money selling beer and food. That is why you pay $10 for a beer that cost them about 50 cents. And most of that cost is just your cup. I'm fascinated by this stuff. And if you are too, there is a great wendover video called something like 'the insane logistics of a concert tour'. It's a must watch
@@TheClownfight I’ve been in the AV industry for 30 years, I saw it from the live concert/production side. I was wondering it what is looked like from the Record label/artist camp side and would love to see a discussion started on this especially on this channel. In the 80’s/90’s you had full crews with one position each and now 1 tech is handling multiple positions. Touring was way up but the wages where stagnant until the dread C19 times (thats a whole other discussion). But I agree with you completely!!!! They used to tour to promote and album, now they produce and album to for a reason to tour.
Something else they don't talk about... Books have a suggested retail price on them, limiting how much a mall realtor can ask for them. Cds never did, and prices could get jacked up so much, it killed a lot of impulse sales.
Easy....Legacy artists and bands with a big enough fanbase and a concert-friendly songs charge more....to make up for the relative pennies they get from Streaming
I think the best liner note gag in history was Twisted Sister. The guitarist thanked the maker and the strings, the drummer his sticks, etc. And Dee Snider thanked Vidal Sassoon hair care products! lol And always with the line "are you listening, Vidal?" And then, after 3-4 albums (2-3 of which were big/massive mainstream hits), the liner note now said: "Dee Snider no longer uses Vidal Sassoon products. You blew it, Vidal!" Lol omg... I laughed for a week when I read that. And no one in the last 25+ years will ever have an experience like that.
My only TS story when I got stationed in So. Cal late 80's met my friend that said he was in one of their videos. I called BS, so he said when it came on Mtv to look for him sitting in a school desk - there he was! 🤘
"In order to obtain maximum sensory enjoyment from the auditory representations contained herein, it is necessary to minimize load resistance through the potentiometer in one's preamplification section. In other words... PLAY IT LOUD, MUTHA!"
One of the reasons is because back then there was nothing else to do. I’d read every word on the album cover. I knew who some of the producers and engineers were! 😂 Pre internet, 3 TV channels and my parents weren’t big on magazine subscriptions. Remember those?
And think of how few widely distributed rock acts there were in the 60s and 70s (and 80s) compared to the 90s and 2000s. Sure it has something to do with the lack of physical media - but also the difference in the amount of content is insane.
So true! My sister and I have joked that half the stuff we used to do as kids was just born out of boredom because we didn't have all this on demand entertainment 24/7.
I do. As a bagpipe player, I used to get a half-sized magazine once a month directly from Glasgow, Scotland. Before you could tune in to BBC Radio Scotland on the net, that was the only connection to the bagpipe community you had. And yes, if mankind really seems to loose its creative drive sometimes it might well be because nowadays there is no more need to be bored.
This. The sheer amount of stuff coming at you nowadays precludes you from really doing any deep dive into the musicians. That and the loss of physical media.
I still buy CDs. My teen daughter used to make light fun of me until she started to collect LPs. She noticed that she would pay anywhere from $20-35 dollars per LP and the CD editions only cost $5-$12 (and often had extra tracks not on the LPs), so now she collects CDs. CDs are just so much more practical than LPs - you can listen to them anywhere. The only thing I miss about LPs is the large artwork.
When you bought an LP you felt like you bought something and played it, seat down in a couch and listened and read the lyrics, the composer's biography, etc. When you buy a cd now you rip it to a file and place the cd in a drawer.
@@hipidipi20157maxplaying an LP is more intentional. More tactile and interactive. It requires more effort and therefore I think it’s more enjoyable because you are engaged in the process of playing the music.
Still buying CDs. Couldn't give a flying fck what people are doing. Love CDs, the sound quality, the liner notes, the physical feel, the price, collecting them. The list goes on. Long live CDs...
I'm with you 💯! I've been collecting CD's for 30 years. I don't think I've gone a week since 1995 without buying at least one CD! Fuck all this streaming invisible bullcrap.
Growing up in Boston, and going to university in the area, there was nothing like going to Harvard Square and Central Square , checking out records at the Coop; or Kenmore Square checking out the locally owned record stores. This hands on experience was half of the music experience. You talked to the record store guy about records, you fingered through the albums. You discovered new musicians by album covers and what was playing in the store... Miss all that.
@@razenhell6514 I'm commenting about the period before Tower Records was opened on Newbury & Mass Ave in 1986. In the 70s into early 80s there were a lot more smaller record stores in Boston and Cambridge.
Discogs is even better than Wikipedia for getting to the details of a given record, and IMO a better place for it. Some folks have been transcribing the full notes for some albums, and it's an amazing resource, especially when the damn record companies don't put the proper information on the releases!
45cat is another useful site. One thing it offers that discogs doesn't is the exact release date, either date or month, for many singles and LPs, and not just the year. It's helpful if you're compiling anything in chronological order.
Allmusic has some details also, but also gives you reviews by professional critics and fans. Gotta put up with a lot of pop up ads but it's very informative and comprehensive.
Burned CDs is a major factor that doesn’t get talked about much in these conversations. More people had PCs and the speed got much faster by 2005. My band Taproot was on Atlantic Records, and we would do signings at record stores, and kids would literally bring burned CDs to the stores to have us sign them, which was not only offensive to the band but to the store. This was when I knew the revenue was definitely going to drop out of the music business.
Oh wow. Sorry you had to go through that. It's great you guys are still rocking it though! I always thought during autograph sessions you had to buy the merchandise in order to get it signed
If it makes you feel any better, I'm sure a lot of us spent $16.98-19.98 or whatever on Welcome solely because the local rock station had "Poem" in heavy rotation. Not saying it was a bad album at all, and I'm not one of those people who complains about buying albums for one single and feeling ripped off. I even bought CD singles. I would have never brought a burned CD to a signing. If anything, I would totally expect the band/store to possibly even require buying an album then and there to get it signed. That would have been totally reasonable to me.
I had a couple of "cover bands" in the 60's & 70's as "front-man" singer, guitar, keyboards. . . I am 83 & I'm encouraged to see the young musicians today on UA-cam "covering" some of the greatest music of my era (1950's, 60's & 70's) as well as original songs of their own - - many of them are setting up "live" concert tours - - I hope people are getting out there to see & hear & support their efforts.
This honestly just made me sad. I started playing drums in 1999. I was 14 years old. The death of physical media and music videos really affected music. I still play drums to this day but at the peak of my "career" all this was happening and made it even harder.
The last minute of the interview: So true! Tons of great tunes that never get heard. Top hits are not the only good music. Also if you are huge, your new song gets overwhelming airplay and becomes a hit even if it's only so-so.
That's a good thing about the Internet based music business is though: you can still get music which is already out of print (because it hasn't been successful enough or other reason), for example on bandcamp. So music can still be discovered even if it has been a failure when it was released.
Bandcamp is the site that really drove home the idea that I'll never hear all the good music. There's just so much stuff that people are not only making, but able to release to the world at large.
I stopped buying CDs when the only place around selling them became Wal-Mart and Target. Now I buy my Depeche Mode and Erasure CDs on pre-order when I first hear they're dropping a new album. I don't even know if things like singles with alternate mixes on them still exist. And I don't buy digital versions because I don't have a smartphone. I miss browsing music stores
Music on Audio CD is digital too. You don't need a smartphone to play a file. You can put about 170 albums in full CD quality onto one 128 GB MicroSD card which costs $20. No reason to buy CDs whatsoever unless you like shiny plastic discs.
I remember the recording industry defending high price CD's, saying prices would come down once their production capacity ramped up. I never did see CD prices come down.
When my uncle passed he left me all his music because he loved to rock like I do, I had no idea what I would see, I ended up with two huge U-Haul storage boxes with 325 eight track tapes in them. From 69 to 81, some killer music. Those 8 tracks are still sitting in a empty room in the house in the boxes.
@darktoadone5068: Back in the early 1980's, I worked at Peaches Records in a Kansas City suburb. I remember that 8-track tapes were on their way out when I started there. Michael Jackson's "Thriller" album was the last really major release that came out on 8-Track, in 1982. It seems like Country and R&B were the last holdouts in 8-tracks. More recently, I knew a guy that would tell us he had an 8-track recorder & he offered to record our CDs onto 8-track tapes for a fee.
I'm a huge music nerd and I loved this! I'm also an old school guy that read the liner notes to every album, cassette, or vinyl I bought so I could know who every member of the band thanked and all the equipment they endorsed...it's all digital now, and that's ok but I miss those days😊 great interview fellas
I have always loved CDs - when my dad passed away a few years back I inherited an amazingly huge CD and Vinyl collection (and me and my Dad loved a lot of the same stuff) - and I've finally got a decent setup again and started listening to CDs and Vinyl - I now understand my Dad's collection - it doesn't necessarily follow the bands, it follows the producers and the session guys. (Why does he have Steely Dan, Toto, Christopher Cross, Michael McDonald, Doobie Brothers, Eric Johnson) (why does he have Chicago, Peter Cetera, David Foster, Earth, Wind & Fire) (Peter Gabriel, Tony Levin, Manu Katche, Tracy Chapman) I now always read the liner notes while listening, and am getting to a point where I can tell who is on what albums from their sound (like a certain drummer, or producer) - to me this is really appreciating music - it's not about the headline name, it's about the band, and production and what each person brings to the table.
I started writing on post it notes my thoughts on the music, or why I like it, and put it back in with the CD so whomever inhereits my collection hopefully understands.
@peanutgallery4 you may be right. But I couldn't list all 8000+ CDs and 900 vinyl. What about Pat Metheny, Martin Taylor, Norah Jones, The Church, Colin Hay... It's like a game, uncovering all of the links
still collect cds for multiple reasons-no ads/internet, ownership, no edits/removal of songs, convenience, sound quality, gorgeous artwork, supporting the artist. New CDs are still cheap & good portable cd players on amazon are at reasonable prices.
I don't recognize this dude that Rick is talking to. But he's awesome. He's a really good compliment to Rick. Keep him on for more! Talk about industry topics.
Fascinating interview Rick. I came of age in the late 1960's and 1970's in Boston, MA and I was into rock and prog rock back then and still am. As a teenager I was an avid listener of the old FM radio station WBCN in Boston, MA. They turned me on to some great rock and prog music not heard on mainstream radio back then. Like you, I read all the liner notes, fascinated by the musicians and who the recording engineers were, sometimes seeing the same engineers on different group's albums. Listening to early King Crimson in 1969-'70, I was so impressed with Gregg Lake's vocals with KC that it led me to becoming a life long fan of ELP.
We both share the same feelings. I think we're probably close in age. We had the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, and Sinatra in the house growing up. I was 10 when I discovered King Crimson, and I used to blast both their first and second albums. Then, it was ALL prog! I miss gatefold and liner notes. It helped me to become a musician.
@@davidweihe6052 I'm told that in many new models, not only are there no factory options for physical media, it's difficult to even find an after-market unit that can fit in the dash.
The quality of music dwindled as we headed into the 90’s and beyond. You no longer needed the entire record because there was only a song or two that you liked-music downloading services also greatly attributed to the hunting of songs and the loss of tangible products to hold in your hand and devour. You no longer needed album sleeves, tape jackets or CD booklets for lyrics because you could find the info online. The internet really began catching fire in the late 90’s and nobody was ready for the changes about to come.
Well you're off by a full decade. I can name plenty of rock, metal, rap, film scores, etc from the 1990's where the whole album rocked. By the 2000s I would agree every genre of music was on the decline.
Agree. Some people are looking for a type of (long, drawn out) ‘listening experience’ and will tolerate average songs or filler. Others do not court this activity and will not tolerate filler, so, for some, individual downloads were a no brainer when they became available. For others, maybe it didn’t make as much sense or have as much value.
The music that was pushed on the masses was less quality but there's still just as much great music as always,you just have to search for it alittle more, it's definitely there
I remember buying singles at Tower Records for the B-sides and Japanese imports etc. Paying like $30 for 4 songs and then all of a sudden a few years later, all of those songs are on Napster and Limewire for nothing. All of my friends who had massive bookcases of CD’s stopped buying music. You knew things were changing.
@@michaelbell75 Burning cd's was a thing for us to turn each other on to new music. Then, if you liked it, you'd buy the cd. Burning cd's actually made people in my group buy more cd's because you wanted the real deal.
I worked in the music/record business for six years - three years in the classic record & tape stores of the late 70's ('77, '78, '79) and then three years in distribution in the early 80's ('80, '81, '82). Who could have guessed that period would be the best time to work in the business before it eventually changed five years later with the onset of compact discs (CD's) along with the slow decline of both vinyl and cassette. 8-Tracks started leaving in the late 70's when cassettes started coming in at that same time, one listening format replacing the other, for use at home and in the car. For CD's, the analog-to-digital transfers couldn't expand fast enough, but they didn't sound good. When turned up, they were harsh on the ears when the dynamic range hit the wall. The first fully digital recording studio was Bear Tracks in Suffern, New York, owned by Spyro Gyra frontman, Jay Beckenstein. It took some time for all the other studios to re-gear into the digital age, but when mastered onto CD's (digital-to-digital) the sound was much better. But it still took years if not decades for re-masters to improve up to the quality they are today. CD's are still the most versatile listening format to use today for physical product. However, this is from the standpoint of being an original audiophile, where quality of sound matters. A generation or two of kids have little to no concern for such things, including their own favorite artists not getting a penny from all the music they've listened to for free, having no clue as to the end result.
This guests insight extended into so many converging industries. The way he connects it to the movie star making system, music journalism, fall of sales all with the internet’s popularity exploding. Loved this video, great context.
Excellent talk! More more more! I think it's fascinating that in the blink of an eye everything there is to know about an artist or band can be found online. I enjoy going back through music from my youth and learning the origin story of songs and bands and what happened to them. Often I never really learned the lyrics, or with time the lyrics have proven to have much deeper or completely different meanings than I originally believed. I think it would be interesting to have a panel discussion with different generations of artists, fans and industry journalists to compare how all of this has morphed over time.
I don't think people realize how expensive CDs were. I started buying them in the early 90s. Back then, a new release was usually priced at $16, if it wasn't on sale. That amount of money in January 1992 is more than $36 today.
Great analysis, Rick and Jim. As an alternative radio announcer from the 1990's, I agree with everything discussed here as to the evolution of rock music popularity. I had to pivot in 2007 to a different career in order to survive, so I embarked on an IT career. I have worked with the types of young men who have the disposable income to spend on cd's or vinyl, but rarely do. They know more about digital music composers of video game or anime than they do about the names of modern music group members. From what I've observed, they spend most of their spare time with only video game background music in their ears, punctuated with clips of audio found when trolling on their social media platforms. The days of spending our spare time with our treasured vinyl exclusively are over. When your daydreams get hijacked by only video game technology or short-attention-span internet browsing, your daydreams fit only those kinds of digital sounds and artists. The next thing you know, there's no appetite for the tactile nature of music appreciation we experienced, where you may have daydreamed about being on stage like the guys from the back of the Steely Dan or Grateful Dead album in your lap.
I agree with you regarding the fact that there are so many video games. Also, many young (and old) gamers spend their time playing massive online multiplayer games rather than listening to music. Music just isn't the thing given much attention when there are so many other things to do. I'm also not at all surprised by the decline of the popularity of rock music. After all, how many people are listening to the Charleston, ragtime, big band crooners, etc? New generations have new interests, and this includes musical tastes or interest/disinterest in music.
As a young lad, my all time favorite band was the legendary Hocus Pocus and their classic Focus. I would spend hours yodeling in school, at home or just in my yard. Then one day they came for me.
Thank you for this Rick and Jim. Great talk on a fascinating subject that had a lot of personal involvement. I played in a number of bands from the 60's on (still playing), and ran a record store in the 70's. 'Watched and listened to the changes happening in the 90's and seeing the decline of so many record stores, venues and local live music in general. Life goes on and things change but it seems that those born in the 90's and a little later missed a truly great thing.
Awesome conversation!!! And yes, a lot of memories! I worked in the music industry from 1986 to 2003. I saw a lot of what you spoke about from the inside (I was at Epic when Pearl Jam vs. broke those soundscan records 😂)… My last incarnation in the business found me working for Miles Copeland from 2000 to late 2002. Back then, he had some very prophetic thoughts about the importance of band branding. He knew even then that music would help brand and the artists would make their living from publishing, touring, and merchandising…. I’d love to see you interview him!!!
2000-2010 was the decade of music forums, and I was in a number of different metal band forums at the time. Many of the big selling rock bands might have become faceless on traditional media, but a lot of 15-25 years olds were talking about music all the time on those forums. We discussed different aspects of the songs on the albums as well as the musicians and their influences. A lot of my friends got into progressive rock bands other than the big names (Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Yes) through discussions on forums for the progressive death metal band Opeth. Steven Wilson was producing their albums in the early 2000s, and he proved to be a gateway to a lot of non-metal bands for us metalheads. Things changed after Facebook became big and forums started disappearing in the early 2000s. I still talk to a good number of people I met through those forums, but I haven't met anyone new to have such discussions since the forums lost their significance.
One of the first places I found when I got online in 1999 was the Iron Maiden official website, so I could get news about the band. Of course that website also had a forum attached to it. I hung out there for years and made many good friends all over the world because of it. That is until they 'upgraded' the forums a couple times. Lost a lot of the history, then the band tied the forum to fan club membership.
Yeah, I was amazed at how so many young people were getting into progressive rock bands. I worked at a records store and I was the guy to ask if you were into 60's and 70's music.
I'm not a metal fan but the death of independent web forums still hurts me to this day. I really miss the atmosphere of them. It seems everyone online now is unfriendly- they don't wanna make friends, or form any social bonds. Just post catty clickbait comments then move on. No real discussions to be had.
I want to add that even bands like Foreigner, Boston, and Loverboy were largely faceless to all but the die hards. That's why Foreigner was able to tour with one or no original members for decades.
I don't know enough about Boston (outside the name of the band) and Loveboy (never heard about them honestly but it's just my lack of knowledge). But Foreigner is more like 'one-face' band than 'faceless' one. It's 'the band of Mick Jones' and there are many similar bands like Whitesnake (aka 'the band of David Coverdale'), Rainbow (R. Blackmore), Megadeth (D. Mustaine) where you know who is the main songwriter - person that writes the big amount of songs and holds the rights of the band's name and so on. It's the same with the band I joined in 2009 ('Epizod' - relatively popular rock/metal band in my country Bulgaria) - our bass player is from the very begining (1988) and during the years there were many different members. You are the author these are your songs and you are free to choose with whom to perform them on stage.
On the other hand there are 'many-faces' band like Deep Purple - probably my biggest influence as a child in early 90s. There are like 15+ different members during the years and I can name each one of them including which year someone joined or left the band. And of course each one of them is/was great musician on their own.
Growing up in a musical household meant new albums were a treat for everyone. We would sit around the stereo with new CDs, especially when the new Big Shiny Tunes mix dropped. Then we had MTV music and DVDs of performances that were played in the background during parties or any social times for that matter. It was so ingrained in everything we did. Now everyone is stuck to their phone scrolling mindlessly with an occasional laugh. Myself included. Im trying to get back to the old ways of taking things slower... We stress ourselves out way to much lately .. we need to remember how to work AND play again.
22:09 - about 30 years ago I decided to become a musician, but I ended up to become a stage technician because it was more likely to afford your rent - but the flame always burned & today I prefer writing good songs which touch me more in my heart than to make a livin' out of it - so, I enjoyed your words very much!
Up until mid 2018 I had a collection of 700+ vinyl LPs and over 300 CDs, including albums that I’d had since the early 70s. However, in mid 2018 I hit some financial difficulties and liquidated 600 of the LPs, something I wish I could undo in part, but now I’m going back to at least get the CD version of some of the truly memorable LPs. I completely identified with Rick keeping everything he’s bought. Great video, Rick!
I have my collection split by decades. All of my 60s-70s music is on vinyl, my 80s music is on cassette and my 90s-00s music is on CD. Some of my favorites I have on multiple formats. White Stripes I have vinyl and CD for instance.
@jimrogers7425 hope You can rebuild yr collection in the future to come. The few albums that I have get rid of over the years have been big regrets. Never going to happen again 😀
Since it’s kind of on-topic, I really hate how “listening to music” on Apple Music doesn’t feel like listening to music any more. I’m sitting here with an incredibly powerful, high resolution device. It’s a perfect opportunity for tons of accompanying media. I still listen to some albums AS ALBUMS. I want information! I want to know everything, and I want pictures of it all too. You actually have to go to a different screen to even see the track progress. It’s less than 50% the experience it could be.
As a fan of a lot of genres of music through the time periods you spoke of I can so relate to what you both are saying you and your channel is a treasure beyond words and each direction you go in through topics and interviews is stellar …. Keep up the amazing work!!!!
Fascinating discussion about how these trends happen, more like this, please! About liner notes, Bandcamp allows bands to post liner notes, credits, and song lyrics. More bands should take advantage of that.
@@crnkmnkyNot the Warning rock band they even have vlogs on how they composed the songs on their albums case in point the Queen of the Murder Scene album Vlogs 23, 26, and 26 were they talk how they composed every song in that album and a great album it is. You can check out the concert where they played that album live with some songs from their first album in between chapters. Just look for the Warning Lunario 2018 concert here on UA-cam. Cheers
I still buy CD's today if I hear something I like. Even for older bands I buy used CD's just so I can own something physical, rather than just an MP3 file.
"Make great records" . Straight to the point. CLUTCH a perfect example of this. Great tunes and word of mouth. Grew an audience every tour. As the KINGS X song 'Go Tell somebody' says , "If you like what your hear then go tell somebody"
DJs are required to have physical copies of the music they play so a fairly famous song would generate hundreds of thousands of sales of singles just from them.
@@orlock20 Not really. Radio stations often receive free "Promo" copies of many releases from labels or bands, trying to get the Program Director(s) to play the music on their station(s). I worked in a record store in the early 1980's & we would often receive "Promo" copies as well. Usually as a bribe to "Push" the record in the store.
Discogs is where I go to find the liner notes for bands (who played on them, who engineered, etc.). Wikipedia is where I go to find out the history behind WHY the album was created, or why the band put the album out.
I think you guys have given us a great education on how the whole system worked and how it kind of like broke down and now the next step I guess is trying to figure out how to create a new infrastructure taken into account how best to use the technology available.
I owned Edgar Winter's They Only Come Out At Night for years before opening the fold and reading who was on the album. I was very surprised to learn Ronnie Montrose played guitar on that album.
There is an incredible old video of Edgar doing Frankenstein live with Montrose on guitar, it's really worth looking it up on UA-cam.It's from an English variety show.
So true Rick - you once again nailed the issues to the core! Great video... always enjoy your thoughful wisdom and your interviews with the "men behind the curtains"...
You can also add the creation of the IPod changed music purchases and the lack of album sales. It’s 99 cents for a song was more acceptable than filling your limited space then buying a cd or paying for album. Earbuds changed how people hear music and you have a private experience instead of blasting it on the stereo or in the car.
I remember someone mentioned right after the downloads & streaming started, that they helped bring back the music "single", rather than the "Album", which had been the predominant sales mover since the 7" vinyl singles' demise in the late 1980's. Cassette singles ("Cassingles" - ugh) and CD Singles never had the cachet of the vinyl.
Rick, you're right at the top of my UA-cam in terms of how brilliant you are in creating the 'state of the music industry' content you do. I never thought of how faceless a lot of the bands from the last two decades have been. I've been lurking for a while, but you just got a new subscriber from this one.
I remember when it was time to drop my Modern Drummer subscription when, month after month, I began to fail to recognize who was on the cover. And getting the MD cover was a huge deal! Part of it was me getting older, but a lot of it was a lack of familiarity with the artist. It was a bit sad.
I remember when Zach Lind made the cover. MD had to include his band name below his name. They seemed to realize how names of band members were becoming irrelevant.
Another factor which I believe has helped to create the "faceless band," is the growth in global population. The year I was born (1963), the population of the USA was 189M. Today it is 336M. More people=more bands=less visibility due to sheer numbers. The rock music genre of yesterday is now divided in to hundreds if not thousands of sub genres that further obscure the performers.
Wikipedia is where I go to see who wrote songs, produced albums, played on a song, etc. It's crazy that I used to know who Roy Thomas Baker or Mike Stone or Mutt Lange was. Now I know Rick Rubin and that's about it!
When the CD came out, the record companies hit the jackpot because they we’re basically re-selling what they’d already previously sold on vinyl. When the internet came along it was the same thing but in reverse. Record companies were totally caught out like you wouldn’t believe. They were so up their own back sides thinking the good times were never going to end. I ran record stores in the U.K. in the 80’s and 90’s and we thought the same to be honest but then … boom… it was all over. Closed the shops, now there’s very few independent record shops existing, most of them survive on second hand stuff. The few major chains left rely on T-shirts, magazines, books, headphones etc etc. The fun went out of buying music by 2000.
The record companies made the biggest money off of Greatest Hits albums. Once people could create their own hits collections, that totally killed Greatest Hits releases, and you now even see big name artists on Spotify putting out greatest hits playlists.
I used to work in a Music shop. When I left it was still doing ok (1995). Then the local brick-and-mortar shops kept dissappearing and when the Czech legendary shop Indies closed in my home town, that was it.
This surely has something to do with age. My 40 year old nephew would be able to name every member of the bands you didn’t know the names of. Probably wouldn’t do so well with the older bands-because those bands weren’t his passion. My 27 year old daughter could name every member of One Direction and all the bands who were from that era. My 16 year old could name the members of 21 pilots, AJR, etc. People know the bands they care about.
Beginning in the 90s, you could listen to the CD before you bought it. That allowed lesser known bands to attract listeners. That is how I discovered most of my world music. This process ended with the closure of major music chains.
Videos too. Countless bands that I "discovered" and some still enjoy, came by the way of video. Lizzy Borden (Me Against The World), Killer Dwarfs (Keep the Spirit Alive), Tora Tora Tora (walking shoes) are just 3 bands where I saw the video, bought the tape, and became life long fans of their music. MTV used to play such a critical role, and pleasantly assisted in growing music. Unfortunately they decided to become a rap music network with reality TV programs.
It's only getting worse. As Art of Guitar pointed out, his pupils went from knowing every track on an album, to knowing only some tracks, to knowing only one track, to asking to learn a random song they heard on Spotify and they can't even name the band, much less the musicians in the band.
Listening to vinyls, knew every track. Changed to CDs, and suddenly had a Skip button, only a few selected songs were played. Ended up streaming, don't even know the name of the album, or sometimes even the artist. Just a list of songs. That's my personal "development".
Glut of music and technology to listen to everything recorded (legally or ??) and to create music. Most of the ‘content on Bandcamp has a handful of listens let alone sales.
I grew up in roughly the time period you are describing and I can say that music magazines did make an impact on me, just not the sort you were talking about. Most of the bands whose members I knew were the sort of pop-punk that you heard on the radio and learned the names of by reading CD liner notes. However, I also learned about a TON of records and bands from reading guitar player and modern drummer type magazines because a lot of those magazines were singing the praises of jazz, funk, and fusion greats that I would never have otherwise heard of.
I want to go back to buying CDs (I still have a CD/tape player). Recent history has shown that online services can take away your "purchases" at a moment's notice, and streaming requires you to be always online while paying a subscription fee, virtually none of which goes to artists. I'm lucky enough to still have a store nearby that sells music, though I think they make more money selling DVDs. I'll buy directly from the artist's website if I really like them, and support the local store otherwise.
It was uncontrolled GREED that killed the music industry. Artists were never allowed to include more than 3 good songs in a 20$ album. And the music industry did this because they thought that they controlled both the demand (by manipulating radio air play) and the supply. However, the moment mp3s became available online, the slaves were finally free of their shackles. And there was no turning back.
It's worth noting that in the UK we have a national broadcaster the BBC that runs the most listened to radio stations particularly Radio 1. Radio 1 may focus on pop but always had shows focusing on Alternative music in the evenings most notably John Peel. Between the early 1990s - mid 2000s it shifted to include more alternative music in its daytime/early evening schedules. In the early 2000s it set up Radio 6 which focuses on alternative music and is still going strong (and which has survived attempts to shut it down)
It's funny that I grew up on that era of music and still know all the Stones guitar players better than most of the 2000s bands. A very interesting and insightful video, you should do a whole series of these.
The "Thick as a Brick" album was a newspaper! I read that thing 100 times I think. They also had some suggestive photos included so that might have been some of the attraction for a 13 year old boy.
The non-rabbit. The sports results where every single score was either 4 or 0. The crossword in which one down's clue was "see one down". Brilliant stuff. Worthy of Monty Python.
Not only one of the greatest albums ever but incredible packaging/artwork and yet I'm not sure it was ever officially recognized (even nominated let alone awarded) for it?
Yep, as I listen to Rick about buying records and studying the liner notes for songwriter, producer, musician etc. is exactly what I did. I have just short of 500 albums and haven't sold any either. The listening...especially the first playing was and is a ritual. I still will open a new record and listen from first track to last with the cover and sleave and any other paraphernalia in my hand. It is still my habit. My 18yo grandson has now taken up the hobby, reads the cover and liner notes. I love that the habit has been passed on down
A few early 80's bands (not so faceless as it was the launch of MTV, but fairly nameless) Cutting Crew, Wang Chung, A Ha (famous for their song/video) Simple Minds, Survivor, Flock of Seagulls to name a few. Early New Wave music but had big hits. (with the exception of Cutting Crew which I would classify as rock.)
As physical beings I think humans attach value to physical objects. Even a crappy/hissy sounding cassette copy of somebody brother's scratchy LP felt more real, more tangible, more valuable than an mp3.
Agreed. Downloads and streaming are terrible experiences. I would never buy digital media. Having a physical LP or CD or cassette on your shelf, which becomes part of your home, your surroundings, that you can touch and commune with, that says something about you and your history the same way your book collection might, creates a stronger connection.
I remember the days of records tapes and CDs and have zero interest in going back to bulky and generally inferior technologies. Records are huge, heavy and fragile, CDs are also bulky and fragile, tapes just suck all around. We live in the best era ever for music listening BY FAR!!!!! I basically have all the music ever recorded in the history of the human race in high quality on my phone. The actual music is what's important to me, the rest is superfluous.
I do appreciate digital downloads, but mostly because they allow me to own releases that aren't available physically in my area or when the physical release is sold out. I can then record them on physical myself. Digital downloads are a great additional way to sell, but not the greatest as primary sales model.
It is funny to think about it now, but I lost the career I was building in college because of exactly this. I went to school for Music Business, and aspired to work in Radio Promotions. I went to school from 1997-2001. I had amazing internships in every branch of the industry in NYC. And in May of 2001, when I graduated, the entire industry was in shambles, with folks being laid off by the hundreds. Of the many talented folks I went to school with, only 2 of them ended up working in the business (one of whom had a radio DJ dad that was well connected). It was SUCH a devastating blow. And a major result of this collapse is the 4 digit ticket prices for shows nowadays. I find myself constantly lecturing folks I know about how the only money flowing through the industry currently is through LIVE shows and merchandise. Which I would gracefully suggest be the next topic that you and Jim Barber discuss on the channel. And obviously some of the ticket pricing is because of the Juggernaut that Live Nation became, but even base price tickets are consistently over $60, which is more than a lot of folks can afford.
I was at Heathrow Airport to meet a friend arriving and The Strokes walked out of Immigration and no one else there knew who they were. It was their first visit to the UK.
As always gentlemen a fine conversation. I was wondering if you had thought about how the industry didnt allow the digital formats to replace the CD. Philips had the digital cassette and my fave DAT! I know it was the dangers of people being able to record but then computers, blank cd's and of course downloading digital files took over anyway. In 1993 my band embarked on a national tour in Australia to promote a EP. It was a disaster but we were booked to do radio interviews followed by a visit to a music store. We arrived and they couldnt fint our EP for us to sign. While we waited I did my usual fossick throught the bargain bin and a found our EP.s.
I thought it was because I was getting old that I didn’t listen to music after the early to mid nineties. Now it all makes sense. There is good music out there but takes a long time to find it.
I gave up on rock & roll in 1985. I turned to classical and jazz instead. Sure, I buy the occasional rock album--but I'd usually wait till the end of the decade, then I would check the "best albums of the decade" articles that come out in the music magazines. At the end of the 2010's, there weren't ANY rock records I wanted to buy.
It only takes a long time in the beginning. I've been searching for a specific genre of niche electronic music from the 90s for so long that I know of most of the best channels that upload these songs. If you really are into niche music and truly make it your hobby, then it will be truly easy to find new great music within a few years. Regarding "faceless bands", sometimes they are "faceless" because they are one very talented producer releasing under many different artist names. That was very common in the hardcore gabber hard trance scenes in the 90s. Just because a song had a generic name from a very generic sounding artist name doesn't at all mean that it won't be one of the highest quality productions you've ever heard. Some of the most amazing productions have been released with cringy names like "Rave On" or "Ready to Rave" (basically any rave title or artist that puts "rave" in the title, haha). I have a thing for experimental tracks, and some of those artists put those experiments out via projects that had very generic sounding names, because the purpose wasn't to make tons of money or fame, but to get the music out there without a risk to their brand.
We used to mail order LP's blindfolded - not knowing what the music actually was like. Just based on an imaginary "feel" of the album which we got from the ads in magazines or sometimes just because the album cover looked so awesome. None of that excitement is left now that you can pre-taste everything...
Making great records (or what one may perceive as great) probably will not result in financial profits, only a tiny fraction of music recordings result in significant profit, regardless of what one listener or another may perceive as "quality" (a "good song" or a "bad song" etc). But there's another kind of (non financial) value in simply making something great, even if it never breaks even, let alone results in profit.
Thank you gentlemen for a great talk. Make great records, totally agree, and word of mouth is still a fantastic platform to focus on. Greetings from New Zealand 🎶
I'm an audiophile, a speaker designer and builder, and a music nut, and I'm shocked at 56 years old that the only places that I know to get CDs anymore is a used place about 2 miles away from my house called "2nd and Charles", then about a 40-minute drive from my house there is a second hand vinyl records and CD store, and finally places like Goodwill which I go to often. Best buy stop selling them probably three or four years ago and Target and Walmart I don't believe sell them anymore 🤔
Amazon has just about any CD you desire; I buy them all the time. My kids think I'm a dinosaur because I still listen to CDs on huge speakers ... they're ashamed of me because I never learned how to do the i-Pod thing. I like to catalog my favorite songs on my CDs and then burn my own CDs to create my own Greatest Hits CDs. Apparently that's much easier to do on streaming devices but I don't know how to use those either.
Well, two of my all time career-influencing bands were Alan Parsons Project and ELO. Back then (mid 70’s to mid 80’s), only the front guys were “known”, but early on we didn’t have a clue what they actually looked like. Pictures (not really videos) came later in their careers, but “looks” weren’t the money making secret for those guys (with all respect, though…). Sure, super-fans would know every name, but these bands were both mainly studio ‘projects’. Besides, numerous solo artists used various session players. They’d be Toto members, Nashville notorieties, Wrecking Crew (various), Hitsville or Sun people… We didn’t know what they looked like, not often their names - but we DID recognize their particular style and sound. Less “individual” focus, but definitely crystal clear identities… 👍
Something I've also noticed in many modern bands is constant member changing. It seems like bands are constantly losing and gaining new members without any real sense of consistency. Not to say that this didn't happen before. But it used to be a much bigger deal when a guitarist or drummer left a band because the fear that that bands sound would change.
I owned a music store from 1993-97. You wouldn’t believe the obstacles I ran into in those 4 years. You needed Billboard magazine to know what to buy. A year subscription was hundreds of dollars. Cassette tapes became phased out, leaving tons of dead inventory. CD’s still growing, so having to buy artists on both cd and tape, was expensive. Walmart selling cheaper than I could buy from wholesale. Then Circuit City, Best Buy came to town. I got out before Napster, which gave it all free. That was the death of the music store
I think it was fans vs. industry greed is what ended the independent stores.
The industry's biggest stake in the heart of the stores was what you said, wholesaling to Wal-Mart for pennies.
The customers always take the path of least resistance, so Napster/torrents were inevitable.
The real moment the industry showed its willingness to degrade itself was the fake anti-longbox campaign. I think they had Don Henley and a few others promoting it "for the environment".
In truth, 75% of the manufacturing cost of cd's was the cardboard longbox. I think it was something like $1.50 for the longbox and $0.50 for the disc and jewel case.
This is 35 year old remembering, so please understand.
I bought the majority of my CD collection in the 92-98 timeframe
The 1990's were definitely a bad time to run a record store, a transition period.
The whole napster things started wit 2 college kids who couldn't afford the cd, one had it and the other one did....so they shared.....and it's all history from there.......and then there's Bit Torrent's...but that's another story
Most of the cds I bought were from 1989 to 2000. Somewhere around 1997 I started to buy LPs because Cds sounded so bad (loud). Then rock died.
Yes! Listening used to be a much more intentional activity. You paid attention. Hours spent on the bed, gatefold album open, liner notes and lyrics out. That was the visual stimulation that went along with the music of the day. Miss those days, but cherish the memories and routines of my youth that, if subjected to today's listeners, would never be fully appreciated (they'd get bored soooo quickly sans screen).
This. Now music is just background noise to be played during the recording of a tiktoks video or the like.
Most of my favorite albums are ones I was disappointed with on the first listen (Faith No More's Angel Dust comes to mind), but because I paid good money for them I forced myself to give them numerous listens and grew to appreciate the more challenging music. Now, with youtube and internet listening, if a song doesn't grab me within a minute, I'm on to the next one. And let's be honest: most songs that grab you immediately are pretty simplistic and shallow.
that is true! today, I buy music, if the song doesn't grab me almost immediately, I start to look at my phone, what else is going on, and at times, the song finishes and I really didn't hear a dang thing other than the first few seconds. in the old days pre-cellphone, I'd have to have the tv on or grab something to read (assuming I'm alone), in which case, why am I listening to this song if the tv is on... and tv wasn't like now, only 4 channels, during daytime, I just didn't give two craps about what was on, soaps, informercials, news/farm reports, and after school, after brady bunch/star trek/gilligans island, didn't care until 7pm when the primetime shows came on. I either read or listened to radio/records and later in my car, radio, cassette tapes and later, cd's. So yeah, read everything on the cover, learned the lyrics of the songs I liked, grew to appreciate the non-hit songs, or how far to fast-forward if the song sucked (in my opinion). Today, new music from new artists, I love Amyl & the sniffers, I think Amy is the lead singer (last name? uh, um, not lee...). anyone else in the band? uh, nope. Drain? uh, I know what the singer looks like. great songs but band names? I'm not including jinjer, I do know Tatiana's first name, but they are Ukrainian names, I am sure I'd butcher the the spellings let alone how to pronounce them. maybe I'm not a superfan...
Like bands like led zeppelin back in the day didn’t have air play on the radio,it was all hear say and buying their albums, and going to their shows and they were huge to say the least.
Owning vs Renting. Investment vs. Borrowing.... this applies to real world economics. Owning Capital vs. Experiential Subscription with nothing to show for it, other than the short term "social media" driven high of being able to brag ... "Look at me... I was there".
My father and I would rarely admit to enjoying each others' music, so when he finally broke that silence by telling me certain songs I was playing that he enjoyed, I didn't try to further piss him off. That was never the goal. Instead, I would try to find even more common ground. It became a great challenge, trying to figure him out, and what I loved that he also enjoyed. I thought it was a great honor to have his approval. He once came home and 'caught' me listening to one of his old albums, and he never said a word, but I could tell he was pleased. I'm 63 now, and I really miss him.
I loved listening to Zep, Pink Floyd, The Stones, AC/DC with my father and he also introduced me to some country, which I mostly rejected at the time (sadly) but enjoy now. I also miss my father.
Your comment was wholly personal. Nice to know you loved and wanted your dad's approval. It's also worth letting you know that it's really not our business to know (unless you just like disclosing your emotions). Stay well
If you apply that to an audience you can incredibly increase “gratuities”. Something I learned years ago. Who am I playing for, myself? If that’s the case, why would I expect people to throw money at me for basically doing the same thing as I would at home?
My dad liked my Night Ranger tapes!
It's funny as all three of my kids ( 14, 19 & 21) all love the same music as I do. They all listen to everything rock/pop from the 70's, 80's & 90's while still enjoying more modern stuff. My 19 year old is obsessed with Def Leppard & AC/DC.
They never tried to rebel against me in regards to music. But we always have music of some type playing and different instruments around the house they have access to.
It's pretty telling that social media sites refer to music and visuals (video and photos) as "content" rather than calling them art. That tells you everything you need to know about how modern audiences are being conditioned to appreciate art.
I am a "writer" not a 'content' creator!
Yep, everything is just 'content' to put ads on! Very sad state of affairs.
Content is the other c-word.
This exact point was pointed out by the head of Universal in a speech at Midem 2008
@jemimallah Interesting you think this is a boomer comment.
Try this on for size: imagine you get the chance to meet your favorite musician face-to-face.
Would you say to them “I love your content”. I think you’d say “I love your music / your work / your art.”
Id seriously doubt you’d call their work “content” to their face.
There is a direct correlation between the death of the CD / physical media sales and the rise of concert ticket prices. Would love to hear the inside of that.
Live shows were used as promotions in the 70s and 80s. At a time when albums were around £2 , concert tickets were around £1 - and I mean for headline acts - Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Genesis, Rory Gallagher, Neil Young etc - there was usually at least one support act. There were sometimes 'Label' tours with 3 or 4 acts. If you want a one word answer for the price increase - it's the Ticketmaster monopoly that owns the venues, the ticketing and a huge chunk of the money that bands try to make on their Merch. John Oliver covers this in one of his programs.
You are correct, and there is a direct corrolation. Record companies were making so much profit off album sales that the labels would subsidize the tours as a loss leader advertising for the band... So you would go buy that cd/cassette etc. And of course the bands were in the hook to pay that back. Even worse was paying all that back didn't come from the $19 of profit off the $20 CD. It came from the 25 to 50 cents the artist made per CD sold. And if you got 50 cents per sale you were a big dog... Like Metallica or Madonna. Aside from the ticketmaster gouging... Prices are still high because now we are paying the whole cost. That isn't just putting on the show, it's paying and feeding and hoteling the entire staff. Another interesting evolution of this is most bands are getting near 100% of the ticket money for a concert. The venue makes it's money selling beer and food. That is why you pay $10 for a beer that cost them about 50 cents. And most of that cost is just your cup. I'm fascinated by this stuff. And if you are too, there is a great wendover video called something like 'the insane logistics of a concert tour'. It's a must watch
@@TheClownfight I’ve been in the AV industry for 30 years, I saw it from the live concert/production side. I was wondering it what is looked like from the Record label/artist camp side and would love to see a discussion started on this especially on this channel. In the 80’s/90’s you had full crews with one position each and now 1 tech is handling multiple positions. Touring was way up but the wages where stagnant until the dread C19 times (thats a whole other discussion). But I agree with you completely!!!! They used to tour to promote and album, now they produce and album to for a reason to tour.
Something else they don't talk about... Books have a suggested retail price on them, limiting how much a mall realtor can ask for them. Cds never did, and prices could get jacked up so much, it killed a lot of impulse sales.
Easy....Legacy artists and bands with a big enough fanbase and a concert-friendly songs charge more....to make up for the relative pennies they get from Streaming
I think the best liner note gag in history was Twisted Sister. The guitarist thanked the maker and the strings, the drummer his sticks, etc. And Dee Snider thanked Vidal Sassoon hair care products! lol And always with the line "are you listening, Vidal?" And then, after 3-4 albums (2-3 of which were big/massive mainstream hits), the liner note now said: "Dee Snider no longer uses Vidal Sassoon products. You blew it, Vidal!"
Lol omg... I laughed for a week when I read that. And no one in the last 25+ years will ever have an experience like that.
My only TS story when I got stationed in So. Cal late 80's met my friend that said he was in one of their videos. I called BS, so he said when it came on Mtv to look for him sitting in a school desk - there he was! 🤘
Dee Snider is a bright guy.
"In order to obtain maximum sensory enjoyment from the auditory representations contained herein, it is necessary to minimize load resistance through the potentiometer in one's preamplification section.
In other words...
PLAY IT LOUD, MUTHA!"
That’s awesome !
Good stuff
One of the reasons is because back then there was nothing else to do. I’d read every word on the album cover. I knew who some of the producers and engineers were! 😂 Pre internet, 3 TV channels and my parents weren’t big on magazine subscriptions. Remember those?
And think of how few widely distributed rock acts there were in the 60s and 70s (and 80s) compared to the 90s and 2000s. Sure it has something to do with the lack of physical media - but also the difference in the amount of content is insane.
So true! My sister and I have joked that half the stuff we used to do as kids was just born out of boredom because we didn't have all this on demand entertainment 24/7.
I do. As a bagpipe player, I used to get a half-sized magazine once a month directly from Glasgow, Scotland. Before you could tune in to BBC Radio Scotland on the net, that was the only connection to the bagpipe community you had.
And yes, if mankind really seems to loose its creative drive sometimes it might well be because nowadays there is no more need to be bored.
@@joyb.5090 And to be fair some fans not only know names but also the favorite color, food, number, animal and much more of the artist.
This. The sheer amount of stuff coming at you nowadays precludes you from really doing any deep dive into the musicians. That and the loss of physical media.
I still buy CDs. My teen daughter used to make light fun of me until she started to collect LPs. She noticed that she would pay anywhere from $20-35 dollars per LP and the CD editions only cost $5-$12 (and often had extra tracks not on the LPs), so now she collects CDs.
CDs are just so much more practical than LPs - you can listen to them anywhere. The only thing I miss about LPs is the large artwork.
Yeah, me too. Cd's, in general, sound better than lp's, unless they are mastered using loudness. Plus, they are not so large and fragile.
Shes Gotta a great DAD !!
When you bought an LP you felt like you bought something and played it, seat down in a couch and listened and read the lyrics, the composer's biography, etc. When you buy a cd now you rip it to a file and place the cd in a drawer.
@@hipidipi20157maxplaying an LP is more intentional. More tactile and interactive. It requires more effort and therefore I think it’s more enjoyable because you are engaged in the process of playing the music.
@@batman48195 exactly
Still buying CDs. Couldn't give a flying fck what people are doing. Love CDs, the sound quality, the liner notes, the physical feel, the price, collecting them. The list goes on. Long live CDs...
Price … at one time they were way overpriced.
Cds are far cheaper than vinyl, sound better than streaming, and you get art and liner notes.
Cds don't get enough love.
@@beanbunn4029 exactly!
Don't forget the smell of a freshly opened jewel case
I'm with you 💯! I've been collecting CD's for 30 years. I don't think I've gone a week since 1995 without buying at least one CD! Fuck all this streaming invisible bullcrap.
Growing up in Boston, and going to university in the area, there was nothing like going to Harvard Square and Central Square , checking out records at the Coop; or Kenmore Square checking out the locally owned record stores. This hands on experience was half of the music experience. You talked to the record store guy about records, you fingered through the albums. You discovered new musicians by album covers and what was playing in the store... Miss all that.
Tower records in on the corner of Mass and Newberry.
@@razenhell6514 I'm commenting about the period before Tower Records was opened on Newbury & Mass Ave in 1986. In the 70s into early 80s there were a lot more smaller record stores in Boston and Cambridge.
all the music I like I found from local bands playing, bought their CDS or albums if they had them
agreed 100%
Worked at Strawberry Records on Kenmore Square! Great time!
Discogs is even better than Wikipedia for getting to the details of a given record, and IMO a better place for it. Some folks have been transcribing the full notes for some albums, and it's an amazing resource, especially when the damn record companies don't put the proper information on the releases!
Yes! And it's much better to navigate through people's work
Remasters are sometimes released with ZERO information regarding the remaster (i.e., date). Hellooo!
45cat is another useful site. One thing it offers that discogs doesn't is the exact release date, either date or month, for many singles and LPs, and not just the year. It's helpful if you're compiling anything in chronological order.
Allmusic has some details also, but also gives you reviews by professional critics and fans. Gotta put up with a lot of pop up ads but it's very informative and comprehensive.
Discogs is fantastic!
Burned CDs is a major factor that doesn’t get talked about much in these conversations. More people had PCs and the speed got much faster by 2005. My band Taproot was on Atlantic Records, and we would do signings at record stores, and kids would literally bring burned CDs to the stores to have us sign them, which was not only offensive to the band but to the store. This was when I knew the revenue was definitely going to drop out of the music business.
Oh wow. Sorry you had to go through that. It's great you guys are still rocking it though! I always thought during autograph sessions you had to buy the merchandise in order to get it signed
If it makes you feel any better, I'm sure a lot of us spent $16.98-19.98 or whatever on Welcome solely because the local rock station had "Poem" in heavy rotation. Not saying it was a bad album at all, and I'm not one of those people who complains about buying albums for one single and feeling ripped off. I even bought CD singles. I would have never brought a burned CD to a signing. If anything, I would totally expect the band/store to possibly even require buying an album then and there to get it signed. That would have been totally reasonable to me.
Video killed the radio star
Video killed the radio star
In my mind and in my car
We can't rewind, we've gone too far.
🎶 _Oh, uh-oh oh oh…_ 🎹👏👏
there's a ton of great music in the 60/70s on UA-cam that is waiting for you to discover it.
found some killer Japanese smooth grooves the other day from Masaki Ueda 1978 @@LoyalOpposition
@@JasonBrockThank you. I'll check him out.
It only that were true now. Mtv was sold, and ifartradio took over.
These conversations about the evolution of the music industry are fascinating. Keep them going.👍
I had a couple of "cover bands" in the 60's & 70's as "front-man" singer, guitar, keyboards. . . I am 83 & I'm encouraged to see the young musicians today on UA-cam "covering" some of the greatest music of my era (1950's, 60's & 70's) as well as original songs of their own - - many of them are setting up "live" concert tours - - I hope people are getting out there to see & hear & support their efforts.
This honestly just made me sad. I started playing drums in 1999. I was 14 years old. The death of physical media and music videos really affected music. I still play drums to this day but at the peak of my "career" all this was happening and made it even harder.
The last minute of the interview: So true! Tons of great tunes that never get heard. Top hits are not the only good music. Also if you are huge, your new song gets overwhelming airplay and becomes a hit even if it's only so-so.
Spotify directs me to lots of groups who have less than 1000 streams. Some of them are really good.
That's a good thing about the Internet based music business is though: you can still get music which is already out of print (because it hasn't been successful enough or other reason), for example on bandcamp. So music can still be discovered even if it has been a failure when it was released.
Bandcamp is the site that really drove home the idea that I'll never hear all the good music. There's just so much stuff that people are not only making, but able to release to the world at large.
And how did “you” get “huge!”😊
Metallica...Theyve been dining out on MOP since 1987.
"There was so little information about bands that you studied liner notes." That one line took me back in time.
More information doesn't mean, I suppose, we're better informed. Just that we probably should be...if we could only focus on one thing at a time.
I remember reading the Appitite for destruction liner notes over and over. I had it on cassette and the liner notes smelled so good.
Best quote of the week "make better records"....cheers
The Warning a rock power trio are making better records that's why the have a worldwide fan base. Their upcoming European tour is almost sold out.
Mo' Better Blues
Also the belief that there are greater hits out there than what has been shoved in our face. Lots of great music undiscovered out there.
I will.
Im sure, this is my favourite musical/business channel ever, these videos are so good, quality over quantity
I stopped buying CDs when the only place around selling them became Wal-Mart and Target. Now I buy my Depeche Mode and Erasure CDs on pre-order when I first hear they're dropping a new album. I don't even know if things like singles with alternate mixes on them still exist. And I don't buy digital versions because I don't have a smartphone. I miss browsing music stores
The last score of CDs that I bought were from Amazon, bought for the group rather than liking an individual song.
Music on Audio CD is digital too. You don't need a smartphone to play a file. You can put about 170 albums in full CD quality onto one 128 GB MicroSD card which costs $20. No reason to buy CDs whatsoever unless you like shiny plastic discs.
@@TinLeadHammer cds 💿 have better sound quality and it’s a back up SD Cards get corrupted easily and lose the music much faster than a cd 💿
@@RobertQuant CDs have better quality compared to what?
@@TinLeadHammer to streaming duhhhh 🤦🏻🤦🏻🤦🏻
The two of you gel nicely together. Loved the content. Thank you both
I remember the recording industry defending high price CD's, saying prices would come down once their production capacity ramped up. I never did see CD prices come down.
I still feel betrayed by them because of that.
It was a licence to print money.
I could never afford new CD's so I was always buying them from thrift shops or second hand stores but then supporting artists through merch sales lol
I remember CDs being touted as being indestructible
@@valueape888 They can be abused more than vinyl, but not totally indestructible.
When my uncle passed he left me all his music because he loved to rock like I do, I had no idea what I would see, I ended up with two huge U-Haul storage boxes with 325 eight track tapes in them. From 69 to 81, some killer music. Those 8 tracks are still sitting in a empty room in the house in the boxes.
@darktoadone5068: Back in the early 1980's, I worked at Peaches Records in a Kansas City suburb. I remember that 8-track tapes were on their way out when I started there. Michael Jackson's "Thriller" album was the last really major release that came out on 8-Track, in 1982. It seems like Country and R&B were the last holdouts in 8-tracks.
More recently, I knew a guy that would tell us he had an 8-track recorder & he offered to record our CDs onto 8-track tapes for a fee.
I'm a huge music nerd and I loved this! I'm also an old school guy that read the liner notes to every album, cassette, or vinyl I bought so I could know who every member of the band thanked and all the equipment they endorsed...it's all digital now, and that's ok but I miss those days😊 great interview fellas
I have always loved CDs - when my dad passed away a few years back I inherited an amazingly huge CD and Vinyl collection (and me and my Dad loved a lot of the same stuff) - and I've finally got a decent setup again and started listening to CDs and Vinyl - I now understand my Dad's collection - it doesn't necessarily follow the bands, it follows the producers and the session guys. (Why does he have Steely Dan, Toto, Christopher Cross, Michael McDonald, Doobie Brothers, Eric Johnson) (why does he have Chicago, Peter Cetera, David Foster, Earth, Wind & Fire) (Peter Gabriel, Tony Levin, Manu Katche, Tracy Chapman)
I now always read the liner notes while listening, and am getting to a point where I can tell who is on what albums from their sound (like a certain drummer, or producer) - to me this is really appreciating music - it's not about the headline name, it's about the band, and production and what each person brings to the table.
how nice for you to feel your Dads expression through his love of music, in heaven he is loving it when you do too.
I started writing on post it notes my thoughts on the music, or why I like it, and put it back in with the CD so whomever inhereits my collection hopefully understands.
Idk all those artists seem like they would go together in the same taste
@peanutgallery4 you may be right. But I couldn't list all 8000+ CDs and 900 vinyl. What about Pat Metheny, Martin Taylor, Norah Jones, The Church, Colin Hay...
It's like a game, uncovering all of the links
@@DjDoggDadWhat an amazing idea.
still collect cds for multiple reasons-no ads/internet, ownership, no edits/removal of songs, convenience, sound quality, gorgeous artwork, supporting the artist. New CDs are still cheap & good portable cd players on amazon are at reasonable prices.
I don't recognize this dude that Rick is talking to. But he's awesome. He's a really good compliment to Rick. Keep him on for more! Talk about industry topics.
Check the description that goes with a video, click 'more' if necessary. The information is often there, as is the case here. His name is Jim Barber 😊
agree. You should check out that other video he did with Rick on corruption
His Substack is great. Rick has brilliant taste in jazz but James is better on rock and roll and R&B in my book. He’s more indie.
@@kendouble9705that's why he didn't say cage the elephant 😂
Worked on the business side of the music industry and witnessed its demise due to greed.
Fascinating interview Rick. I came of age in the late 1960's and 1970's in Boston, MA and I was into rock and prog rock back then and still am. As a teenager I was an avid listener of the old FM radio station WBCN in Boston, MA. They turned me on to some great rock and prog music not heard on mainstream radio back then. Like you, I read all the liner notes, fascinated by the musicians and who the recording engineers were, sometimes seeing the same engineers on different group's albums. Listening to early King Crimson in 1969-'70, I was so impressed with Gregg Lake's vocals with KC that it led me to becoming a life long fan of ELP.
We both share the same feelings. I think we're probably close in age. We had the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, and Sinatra in the house growing up. I was 10 when I discovered King Crimson, and I used to blast both their first and second albums. Then, it was ALL prog! I miss gatefold and liner notes. It helped me to become a musician.
No cd players in cars anymore sure hurts.
Buy better cars. Mine have always had 8 tracks, cassette tapes, or CD play capabilities, physical media of various types.
@@davidweihe6052 loved my cassettes! They nevet skippped!
My 2016 and 2017 BMWs have them - and I'm VERY glad for it.
@@davidweihe6052 I'm told that in many new models, not only are there no factory options for physical media, it's difficult to even find an after-market unit that can fit in the dash.
Especially when your usb cable disconnects when you touch it.
The quality of music dwindled as we headed into the 90’s and beyond. You no longer needed the entire record because there was only a song or two that you liked-music downloading services also greatly attributed to the hunting of songs and the loss of tangible products to hold in your hand and devour. You no longer needed album sleeves, tape jackets or CD booklets for lyrics because you could find the info online. The internet really began catching fire in the late 90’s and nobody was ready for the changes about to come.
Well you're off by a full decade. I can name plenty of rock, metal, rap, film scores, etc from the 1990's where the whole album rocked. By the 2000s I would agree every genre of music was on the decline.
Agree. Some people are looking for a type of (long, drawn out) ‘listening experience’ and will tolerate average songs or filler. Others do not court this activity and will not tolerate filler, so, for some, individual downloads were a no brainer when they became available. For others, maybe it didn’t make as much sense or have as much value.
The music that was pushed on the masses was less quality but there's still just as much great music as always,you just have to search for it alittle more, it's definitely there
I remember buying singles at Tower Records for the B-sides and Japanese imports etc. Paying like $30 for 4 songs and then all of a sudden a few years later, all of those songs are on Napster and Limewire for nothing. All of my friends who had massive bookcases of CD’s stopped buying music. You knew things were changing.
Some guys were burning CDs even before Napster.
Big Time. I would check out a dozen CDs at a time from the local library to dupe. @@seed_drill7135
@@seed_drill7135 I had a TON of burned CDs ha.
@@michaelbell75 Burning cd's was a thing for us to turn each other on to new music. Then, if you liked it, you'd buy the cd. Burning cd's actually made people in my group buy more cd's because you wanted the real deal.
@@michaelbell75and now they just gather dust. You might drag them out if you have an overwhelming urge to hear a particular tune.
I worked in the music/record business for six years - three years in the classic record & tape stores of the late 70's ('77, '78, '79) and then three years in distribution in the early 80's ('80, '81, '82). Who could have guessed that period would be the best time to work in the business before it eventually changed five years later with the onset of compact discs (CD's) along with the slow decline of both vinyl and cassette. 8-Tracks started leaving in the late 70's when cassettes started coming in at that same time, one listening format replacing the other, for use at home and in the car. For CD's, the analog-to-digital transfers couldn't expand fast enough, but they didn't sound good. When turned up, they were harsh on the ears when the dynamic range hit the wall. The first fully digital recording studio was Bear Tracks in Suffern, New York, owned by Spyro Gyra frontman, Jay Beckenstein. It took some time for all the other studios to re-gear into the digital age, but when mastered onto CD's (digital-to-digital) the sound was much better. But it still took years if not decades for re-masters to improve up to the quality they are today. CD's are still the most versatile listening format to use today for physical product. However, this is from the standpoint of being an original audiophile, where quality of sound matters. A generation or two of kids have little to no concern for such things, including their own favorite artists not getting a penny from all the music they've listened to for free, having no clue as to the end result.
People today listen on ONE speaker. Blows the mind except that that one speaker sounds better than what I could afford in the golden age
@@PPasquale1 One speaker sounds better ? You must not have been able to afford much of anything in the golden age then.
@ i was a kid. Two tin cans and a string
This guests insight extended into so many converging industries. The way he connects it to the movie star making system, music journalism, fall of sales all with the internet’s popularity exploding. Loved this video, great context.
Excellent talk! More more more!
I think it's fascinating that in the blink of an eye everything there is to know about an artist or band can be found online.
I enjoy going back through music from my youth and learning the origin story of songs and bands and what happened to them. Often I never really learned the lyrics, or with time the lyrics have proven to have much deeper or completely different meanings than I originally believed.
I think it would be interesting to have a panel discussion with different generations of artists, fans and industry journalists to compare how all of this has morphed over time.
I don't think people realize how expensive CDs were. I started buying them in the early 90s. Back then, a new release was usually priced at $16, if it wasn't on sale. That amount of money in January 1992 is more than $36 today.
People are stupid. They have rose colored nostalgia glasses. Prices have never been lower or quality of recording higher, and people complain!
Great analysis, Rick and Jim. As an alternative radio announcer from the 1990's, I agree with everything discussed here as to the evolution of rock music popularity.
I had to pivot in 2007 to a different career in order to survive, so I embarked on an IT career. I have worked with the types of young men who have the disposable income to spend on cd's or vinyl, but rarely do. They know more about digital music composers of video game or anime than they do about the names of modern music group members. From what I've observed, they spend most of their spare time with only video game background music in their ears, punctuated with clips of audio found when trolling on their social media platforms.
The days of spending our spare time with our treasured vinyl exclusively are over. When your daydreams get hijacked by only video game technology or short-attention-span internet browsing, your daydreams fit only those kinds of digital sounds and artists. The next thing you know, there's no appetite for the tactile nature of music appreciation we experienced, where you may have daydreamed about being on stage like the guys from the back of the Steely Dan or Grateful Dead album in your lap.
I agree with you regarding the fact that there are so many video games. Also, many young (and old) gamers spend their time playing massive online multiplayer games rather than listening to music. Music just isn't the thing given much attention when there are so many other things to do.
I'm also not at all surprised by the decline of the popularity of rock music. After all, how many people are listening to the Charleston, ragtime, big band crooners, etc? New generations have new interests, and this includes musical tastes or interest/disinterest in music.
As a young lad, my all time favorite band was the legendary Hocus Pocus and their classic Focus.
I would spend hours yodeling in school, at home or just in my yard.
Then one day they came for me.
🤣🤣🤣
Classic track!
House of the King, Sylvia, Live at the Rainbow, Focus 3. No filler. Just great mucianship.
Wasn't the band name Focus and the song was hocus pocus?🤔
@@870expressmag ya caught it!
Thank you for this Rick and Jim. Great talk on a fascinating subject that had a lot of personal involvement. I played in a number of bands from the 60's on (still playing), and ran a record store in the 70's. 'Watched and listened to the changes happening in the 90's and seeing the decline of so many record stores, venues and local live music in general. Life goes on and things change but it seems that those born in the 90's and a little later missed a truly great thing.
Awesome conversation!!! And yes, a lot of memories! I worked in the music industry from 1986 to 2003. I saw a lot of what you spoke about from the inside (I was at Epic when Pearl Jam vs. broke those soundscan records 😂)…
My last incarnation in the business found me working for Miles Copeland from 2000 to late 2002. Back then, he had some very prophetic thoughts about the importance of band branding. He knew even then that music would help brand and the artists would make their living from publishing, touring, and merchandising….
I’d love to see you interview him!!!
2000-2010 was the decade of music forums, and I was in a number of different metal band forums at the time. Many of the big selling rock bands might have become faceless on traditional media, but a lot of 15-25 years olds were talking about music all the time on those forums. We discussed different aspects of the songs on the albums as well as the musicians and their influences. A lot of my friends got into progressive rock bands other than the big names (Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Yes) through discussions on forums for the progressive death metal band Opeth. Steven Wilson was producing their albums in the early 2000s, and he proved to be a gateway to a lot of non-metal bands for us metalheads. Things changed after Facebook became big and forums started disappearing in the early 2000s. I still talk to a good number of people I met through those forums, but I haven't met anyone new to have such discussions since the forums lost their significance.
One of the first places I found when I got online in 1999 was the Iron Maiden official website, so I could get news about the band. Of course that website also had a forum attached to it. I hung out there for years and made many good friends all over the world because of it. That is until they 'upgraded' the forums a couple times. Lost a lot of the history, then the band tied the forum to fan club membership.
Yeah, I was amazed at how so many young people were getting into progressive rock bands. I worked at a records store and I was the guy to ask if you were into 60's and 70's music.
I'm not a metal fan but the death of independent web forums still hurts me to this day. I really miss the atmosphere of them. It seems everyone online now is unfriendly- they don't wanna make friends, or form any social bonds. Just post catty clickbait comments then move on. No real discussions to be had.
I was at Best Buy last week. Nothing left but the racks now. All DVDs, Blue Rays, 4K discs, CDs gone. Best Buy has quit selling them.
I want to add that even bands like Foreigner, Boston, and Loverboy were largely faceless to all but the die hards. That's why Foreigner was able to tour with one or no original members for decades.
Very good point.
I don't know enough about Boston (outside the name of the band) and Loveboy (never heard about them honestly but it's just my lack of knowledge). But Foreigner is more like 'one-face' band than 'faceless' one. It's 'the band of Mick Jones' and there are many similar bands like Whitesnake (aka 'the band of David Coverdale'), Rainbow (R. Blackmore), Megadeth (D. Mustaine) where you know who is the main songwriter - person that writes the big amount of songs and holds the rights of the band's name and so on. It's the same with the band I joined in 2009 ('Epizod' - relatively popular rock/metal band in my country Bulgaria) - our bass player is from the very begining (1988) and during the years there were many different members. You are the author these are your songs and you are free to choose with whom to perform them on stage.
On the other hand there are 'many-faces' band like Deep Purple - probably my biggest influence as a child in early 90s. There are like 15+ different members during the years and I can name each one of them including which year someone joined or left the band. And of course each one of them is/was great musician on their own.
@@MrHayes-cb7hpthat's why we called it Arena Rock, generic, yet solid.
@@VasilBelezhkovAll that stuff was called Arena Rock.
Growing up in a musical household meant new albums were a treat for everyone. We would sit around the stereo with new CDs, especially when the new Big Shiny Tunes mix dropped.
Then we had MTV music and DVDs of performances that were played in the background during parties or any social times for that matter.
It was so ingrained in everything we did.
Now everyone is stuck to their phone scrolling mindlessly with an occasional laugh. Myself included. Im trying to get back to the old ways of taking things slower... We stress ourselves out way to much lately .. we need to remember how to work AND play again.
22:09 - about 30 years ago I decided to become a musician, but I ended up to become a stage technician because it was more likely to afford your rent - but the flame always burned & today I prefer writing good songs which touch me more in my heart than to make a livin' out of it - so, I enjoyed your words very much!
Up until mid 2018 I had a collection of 700+ vinyl LPs and over 300 CDs, including albums that I’d had since the early 70s. However, in mid 2018 I hit some financial difficulties and liquidated 600 of the LPs, something I wish I could undo in part, but now I’m going back to at least get the CD version of some of the truly memorable LPs. I completely identified with Rick keeping everything he’s bought. Great video, Rick!
I have my collection split by decades. All of my 60s-70s music is on vinyl, my 80s music is on cassette and my 90s-00s music is on CD. Some of my favorites I have on multiple formats. White Stripes I have vinyl and CD for instance.
@jimrogers7425 hope You can rebuild yr collection in the future to come. The few albums that I have get rid of over the years have been big regrets. Never going to happen again 😀
Since it’s kind of on-topic, I really hate how “listening to music” on Apple Music doesn’t feel like listening to music any more. I’m sitting here with an incredibly powerful, high resolution device. It’s a perfect opportunity for tons of accompanying media. I still listen to some albums AS ALBUMS. I want information! I want to know everything, and I want pictures of it all too. You actually have to go to a different screen to even see the track progress. It’s less than 50% the experience it could be.
Apple do not care about music, they care about making money.
@@stevesmith3990 An unfortunate reality.
Apple tried this. iTunes LP. I bought 2 albums with this feature but, IMHO, looking at a screen is not the same as holding the paper.
As a fan of a lot of genres of music through the time periods you spoke of I can so relate to what you both are saying you and your channel is a treasure beyond words and each direction you go in through topics and interviews is stellar …. Keep up the amazing work!!!!
Fascinating discussion about how these trends happen, more like this, please! About liner notes, Bandcamp allows bands to post liner notes, credits, and song lyrics. More bands should take advantage of that.
That's why I love Bandcamp: lots of information for each track! And also, no 30 sec preview for songs but a limited times we can listen to them fully.
@@chez_jn Bandcamp is where I look for new bands, and even really old famous bands often post there.
Few bands bother typing anything, just as few bother with descriptions or subtitles on UA-cam videos. 😒
@@crnkmnkyNot the Warning rock band they even have vlogs on how they composed the songs on their albums case in point the Queen of the Murder Scene album Vlogs 23, 26, and 26 were they talk how they composed every song in that album and a great album it is.
You can check out the concert where they played that album live with some songs from their first album in between chapters. Just look for the Warning Lunario 2018 concert here on UA-cam.
Cheers
@@crnkmnky the Watning is the exception of you tube
I still buy CD's today if I hear something I like. Even for older bands I buy used CD's just so I can own something physical, rather than just an MP3 file.
"Make great records" . Straight to the point. CLUTCH a perfect example of this. Great tunes and word of mouth. Grew an audience every tour.
As the KINGS X song 'Go Tell somebody' says , "If you like what your hear then go tell somebody"
We used to buy the first single and then the album when it came out!
DJs are required to have physical copies of the music they play so a fairly famous song would generate hundreds of thousands of sales of singles just from them.
Prince was the master of this. "From the forthcoming record..."
@@labnine3362 Many people did that besides him you know...
@@orlock20 Not really. Radio stations often receive free "Promo" copies of many releases from labels or bands, trying to get the Program Director(s) to play the music on their station(s). I worked in a record store in the early 1980's & we would often receive "Promo" copies as well. Usually as a bribe to "Push" the record in the store.
Discogs is where I go to find the liner notes for bands (who played on them, who engineered, etc.).
Wikipedia is where I go to find out the history behind WHY the album was created, or why the band put the album out.
I think you guys have given us a great education on how the whole system worked and how it kind of like broke down and now the next step I guess is trying to figure out how to create a new infrastructure taken into account how best to use the technology available.
I used to love the little booklets that came with cds. It was so exciting to find lyrics, artwork and photos of my favorite artists.
I owned Edgar Winter's They Only Come Out At Night for years before opening the fold and reading who was on the album.
I was very surprised to learn Ronnie Montrose played guitar on that album.
There is an incredible old video of Edgar doing Frankenstein live with Montrose on guitar, it's really worth looking it up on UA-cam.It's from an English variety show.
I had an epiphany similar recently with ATFs DerCommisar. Had no idea it was a cover.
So true Rick - you once again nailed the issues to the core! Great video... always enjoy your thoughful wisdom and your interviews with the "men behind the curtains"...
First of all: Congrats to 4m subscribers! 🎉😊 And please make Jim a regular - love your get-togethers / talks!
I love these "in the weeds" discussions about the music biz and the history. Fascinating!
You can also add the creation of the IPod changed music purchases and the lack of album sales. It’s 99 cents for a song was more acceptable than filling your limited space then buying a cd or paying for album. Earbuds changed how people hear music and you have a private experience instead of blasting it on the stereo or in the car.
I remember someone mentioned right after the downloads & streaming started, that they helped bring back the music "single", rather than the "Album", which had been the predominant sales mover since the 7" vinyl singles' demise in the late 1980's. Cassette singles ("Cassingles" - ugh) and CD Singles never had the cachet of the vinyl.
Rick, you're right at the top of my UA-cam in terms of how brilliant you are in creating the 'state of the music industry' content you do. I never thought of how faceless a lot of the bands from the last two decades have been. I've been lurking for a while, but you just got a new subscriber from this one.
Seems exclusive to rock, people always talk about the members of other genres
Do you know anyone who only focuses on the 60/70s?
Old people@@LoyalOpposition
I remember when it was time to drop my Modern Drummer subscription when, month after month, I began to fail to recognize who was on the cover. And getting the MD cover was a huge deal! Part of it was me getting older, but a lot of it was a lack of familiarity with the artist. It was a bit sad.
I remember when Zach Lind made the cover. MD had to include his band name below his name. They seemed to realize how names of band members were becoming irrelevant.
Another factor which I believe has helped to create the "faceless band," is the growth in global population. The year I was born (1963), the population of the USA was 189M. Today it is 336M. More people=more bands=less visibility due to sheer numbers. The rock music genre of yesterday is now divided in to hundreds if not thousands of sub genres that further obscure the performers.
Wikipedia is where I go to see who wrote songs, produced albums, played on a song, etc. It's crazy that I used to know who Roy Thomas Baker or Mike Stone or Mutt Lange was. Now I know Rick Rubin and that's about it!
I mean if you read the liner note you always called him, “Robert John “Mutt” Lange…
@@KCCheez Absolutely correct. And we all know that 'ol Mutt played a huge role in the pop-ization of country music during the late 90s as well.
When the CD came out, the record companies hit the jackpot because they we’re basically re-selling what they’d already previously sold on vinyl. When the internet came along it was the same thing but in reverse. Record companies were totally caught out like you wouldn’t believe. They were so up their own back sides thinking the good times were never going to end. I ran record stores in the U.K. in the 80’s and 90’s and we thought the same to be honest but then … boom… it was all over. Closed the shops, now there’s very few independent record shops existing, most of them survive on second hand stuff. The few major chains left rely on T-shirts, magazines, books, headphones etc etc. The fun went out of buying music by 2000.
True. For those who already owned the vinyl album, the CD version always included one or two bonus track. For big fans, they had to buy it again.
The record companies made the biggest money off of Greatest Hits albums. Once people could create their own hits collections, that totally killed Greatest Hits releases, and you now even see big name artists on Spotify putting out greatest hits playlists.
The last time my band put out a CD, I couldn't give them away. People would look at it and ask "what am I supposed to do with that?"
I would've bought one, maybe even more than one depending on what type of music it was.
I used to work in a Music shop. When I left it was still doing ok (1995). Then the local brick-and-mortar shops kept dissappearing and when the Czech legendary shop Indies closed in my home town, that was it.
This surely has something to do with age. My 40 year old nephew would be able to name every member of the bands you didn’t know the names of. Probably wouldn’t do so well with the older bands-because those bands weren’t his passion. My 27 year old daughter could name every member of One Direction and all the bands who were from that era. My 16 year old could name the members of 21 pilots, AJR, etc. People know the bands they care about.
Beginning in the 90s, you could listen to the CD before you bought it. That allowed lesser known bands to attract listeners. That is how I discovered most of my world music. This process ended with the closure of major music chains.
Videos too. Countless bands that I "discovered" and some still enjoy, came by the way of video. Lizzy Borden (Me Against The World), Killer Dwarfs (Keep the Spirit Alive), Tora Tora Tora (walking shoes) are just 3 bands where I saw the video, bought the tape, and became life long fans of their music.
MTV used to play such a critical role, and pleasantly assisted in growing music. Unfortunately they decided to become a rap music network with reality TV programs.
It's only getting worse. As Art of Guitar pointed out, his pupils went from knowing every track on an album, to knowing only some tracks, to knowing only one track, to asking to learn a random song they heard on Spotify and they can't even name the band, much less the musicians in the band.
Listening to vinyls, knew every track. Changed to CDs, and suddenly had a Skip button, only a few selected songs were played. Ended up streaming, don't even know the name of the album, or sometimes even the artist. Just a list of songs.
That's my personal "development".
If guitar players want to thrive they will have to do dance rock again like Steve Steven's did with Billy idol.
I remember seeing that one.
Sad
@@trulyunoriginal You had the luxury of a pen? I had only a pencil/my finger... etc.
Glut of music and technology to listen to everything recorded (legally or ??) and to create music. Most of the ‘content on Bandcamp has a handful of listens let alone sales.
I grew up in roughly the time period you are describing and I can say that music magazines did make an impact on me, just not the sort you were talking about. Most of the bands whose members I knew were the sort of pop-punk that you heard on the radio and learned the names of by reading CD liner notes. However, I also learned about a TON of records and bands from reading guitar player and modern drummer type magazines because a lot of those magazines were singing the praises of jazz, funk, and fusion greats that I would never have otherwise heard of.
“Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone”
I enjoy Rick and Jim's conversations, looking forward to the next one.
I really enjoy these conversations with Jim. I’d love to see more!! 🙌🏻😁
I want to go back to buying CDs (I still have a CD/tape player). Recent history has shown that online services can take away your "purchases" at a moment's notice, and streaming requires you to be always online while paying a subscription fee, virtually none of which goes to artists. I'm lucky enough to still have a store nearby that sells music, though I think they make more money selling DVDs. I'll buy directly from the artist's website if I really like them, and support the local store otherwise.
I love these conversations you have with Jim. They are always so interesting!
Yo! Rick hit 4 mil subs! Congrats!
It was uncontrolled GREED that killed the music industry.
Artists were never allowed to include more than 3 good songs in a 20$ album. And the music industry did this because they thought that they controlled both the demand (by manipulating radio air play) and the supply.
However, the moment mp3s became available online, the slaves were finally free of their shackles.
And there was no turning back.
I agree. Back in the 70s I had discussions with my friends who said the top 40 lists were manipulated.
I have hundreds of albums. The majority have way more than three good songs on them. Many were good beginning to end.
@@tgs1766 that is called good taste.
Yeah nostalgia bullshitters always miss that point.
I love these interviews with Jim Barber!!! So informative.
These are the conversations I absolutely love! Keep up the great work!
It's worth noting that in the UK we have a national broadcaster the BBC that runs the most listened to radio stations particularly Radio 1. Radio 1 may focus on pop but always had shows focusing on Alternative music in the evenings most notably John Peel. Between the early 1990s - mid 2000s it shifted to include more alternative music in its daytime/early evening schedules. In the early 2000s it set up Radio 6 which focuses on alternative music and is still going strong (and which has survived attempts to shut it down)
It's funny that I grew up on that era of music and still know all the Stones guitar players better than most of the 2000s bands. A very interesting and insightful video, you should do a whole series of these.
The "Thick as a Brick" album was a newspaper! I read that thing 100 times I think. They also had some suggestive photos included so that might have been some of the attraction for a 13 year old boy.
The non-rabbit. The sports results where every single score was either 4 or 0. The crossword in which one down's clue was "see one down". Brilliant stuff. Worthy of Monty Python.
Not only one of the greatest albums ever but incredible packaging/artwork and yet I'm not sure it was ever officially recognized (even nominated let alone awarded) for it?
Yep, as I listen to Rick about buying records and studying the liner notes for songwriter, producer, musician etc. is exactly what I did. I have just short of 500 albums and haven't sold any either. The listening...especially the first playing was and is a ritual. I still will open a new record and listen from first track to last with the cover and sleave and any other paraphernalia in my hand. It is still my habit. My 18yo grandson has now taken up the hobby, reads the cover and liner notes. I love that the habit has been passed on down
A few early 80's bands (not so faceless as it was the launch of MTV, but fairly nameless) Cutting Crew, Wang Chung, A Ha (famous for their song/video) Simple Minds, Survivor, Flock of Seagulls to name a few. Early New Wave music but had big hits. (with the exception of Cutting Crew which I would classify as rock.)
As physical beings I think humans attach value to physical objects. Even a crappy/hissy sounding cassette copy of somebody brother's scratchy LP felt more real, more tangible, more valuable than an mp3.
Agreed. Downloads and streaming are terrible experiences. I would never buy digital media. Having a physical LP or CD or cassette on your shelf, which becomes part of your home, your surroundings, that you can touch and commune with, that says something about you and your history the same way your book collection might, creates a stronger connection.
I remember the days of records tapes and CDs and have zero interest in going back to bulky and generally inferior technologies. Records are huge, heavy and fragile, CDs are also bulky and fragile, tapes just suck all around.
We live in the best era ever for music listening BY FAR!!!!! I basically have all the music ever recorded in the history of the human race in high quality on my phone. The actual music is what's important to me, the rest is superfluous.
You never really own anything digital. @@joeshoe6184
I do appreciate digital downloads, but mostly because they allow me to own releases that aren't available physically in my area or when the physical release is sold out. I can then record them on physical myself. Digital downloads are a great additional way to sell, but not the greatest as primary sales model.
I still collect physical media of my faves
It is funny to think about it now, but I lost the career I was building in college because of exactly this. I went to school for Music Business, and aspired to work in Radio Promotions. I went to school from 1997-2001. I had amazing internships in every branch of the industry in NYC. And in May of 2001, when I graduated, the entire industry was in shambles, with folks being laid off by the hundreds. Of the many talented folks I went to school with, only 2 of them ended up working in the business (one of whom had a radio DJ dad that was well connected). It was SUCH a devastating blow. And a major result of this collapse is the 4 digit ticket prices for shows nowadays. I find myself constantly lecturing folks I know about how the only money flowing through the industry currently is through LIVE shows and merchandise. Which I would gracefully suggest be the next topic that you and Jim Barber discuss on the channel. And obviously some of the ticket pricing is because of the Juggernaut that Live Nation became, but even base price tickets are consistently over $60, which is more than a lot of folks can afford.
Amen!
I was at Heathrow Airport to meet a friend arriving and The Strokes walked out of Immigration and no one else there knew who they were. It was their first visit to the UK.
but how many in that airport can hum along to a couple of their songs ?
They stayed at my hotel and i did not recognize the lead singer lol
Gordon was the (original) producer! Transporter-raum studio or something like that - dark dingy spot, pleasant though.
So cool
I'm 58 and I barely know the band's name, let alone a single line of their songs.
Stu Sutcliffe was also a short term member of the Beatles.
Astrid Kircherr is my favorite member of the Beatles but there's no way Rick was going to let me get away with adding her to the list.
Yet equally great..
Thelma Pickles por vida!
Jimmy Nichols played drums on part of a tour when Ringo was out sick.
Don’t forget Billy Preston
As always gentlemen a fine conversation. I was wondering if you had thought about how the industry didnt allow the digital formats to replace the CD. Philips had the digital cassette and my fave DAT! I know it was the dangers of people being able to record but then computers, blank cd's and of course downloading digital files took over anyway.
In 1993 my band embarked on a national tour in Australia to promote a EP. It was a disaster but we were booked to do radio interviews followed by a visit to a music store. We arrived and they couldnt fint our EP for us to sign. While we waited I did my usual fossick throught the bargain bin and a found our EP.s.
I thought it was because I was getting old that I didn’t listen to music after the early to mid nineties. Now it all makes sense. There is good music out there but takes a long time to find it.
I gave up on rock & roll in 1985. I turned to classical and jazz instead. Sure, I buy the occasional rock album--but I'd usually wait till the end of the decade, then I would check the "best albums of the decade" articles that come out in the music magazines. At the end of the 2010's, there weren't ANY rock records I wanted to buy.
Its definitely you're age, those "faceless" bands are the bands of my generation and to us fans they weren't faceless at all.
It only takes a long time in the beginning. I've been searching for a specific genre of niche electronic music from the 90s for so long that I know of most of the best channels that upload these songs. If you really are into niche music and truly make it your hobby, then it will be truly easy to find new great music within a few years.
Regarding "faceless bands", sometimes they are "faceless" because they are one very talented producer releasing under many different artist names. That was very common in the hardcore gabber hard trance scenes in the 90s. Just because a song had a generic name from a very generic sounding artist name doesn't at all mean that it won't be one of the highest quality productions you've ever heard. Some of the most amazing productions have been released with cringy names like "Rave On" or "Ready to Rave" (basically any rave title or artist that puts "rave" in the title, haha). I have a thing for experimental tracks, and some of those artists put those experiments out via projects that had very generic sounding names, because the purpose wasn't to make tons of money or fame, but to get the music out there without a risk to their brand.
Great conversation. Keep it up.
We used to mail order LP's blindfolded - not knowing what the music actually was like. Just based on an imaginary "feel" of the album which we got from the ads in magazines or sometimes just because the album cover looked so awesome. None of that excitement is left now that you can pre-taste everything...
Congratulations on 4M subscribers!
Making great records (or what one may perceive as great) probably will not result in financial profits, only a tiny fraction of music recordings result in significant profit, regardless of what one listener or another may perceive as "quality" (a "good song" or a "bad song" etc).
But there's another kind of (non financial) value in simply making something great, even if it never breaks even, let alone results in profit.
Thank you gentlemen for a great talk. Make great records, totally agree, and word of mouth is still a fantastic platform to focus on. Greetings from New Zealand 🎶
I'm an audiophile, a speaker designer and builder, and a music nut, and I'm shocked at 56 years old that the only places that I know to get CDs anymore is a used place about 2 miles away from my house called "2nd and Charles", then about a 40-minute drive from my house there is a second hand vinyl records and CD store, and finally places like Goodwill which I go to often. Best buy stop selling them probably three or four years ago and Target and Walmart I don't believe sell them anymore 🤔
Amazon has just about any CD you desire; I buy them all the time. My kids think I'm a dinosaur because I still listen to CDs on huge speakers ... they're ashamed of me because I never learned how to do the i-Pod thing. I like to catalog my favorite songs on my CDs and then burn my own CDs to create my own Greatest Hits CDs. Apparently that's much easier to do on streaming devices but I don't know how to use those either.
Well, two of my all time career-influencing bands were Alan Parsons Project and ELO. Back then (mid 70’s to mid 80’s), only the front guys were “known”, but early on we didn’t have a clue what they actually looked like.
Pictures (not really videos) came later in their careers, but “looks” weren’t the money making secret for those guys (with all respect, though…). Sure, super-fans would know every name, but these bands were both mainly studio ‘projects’.
Besides, numerous solo artists used various session players. They’d be Toto members, Nashville notorieties, Wrecking Crew (various), Hitsville or Sun people… We didn’t know what they looked like, not often their names - but we DID recognize their particular style and sound.
Less “individual” focus, but definitely crystal clear identities… 👍
Bev bevan the drummer well known ,
I remember the days when sifting through cd cases of friend you just met was a great way to get to know someone.
Something I've also noticed in many modern bands is constant member changing. It seems like bands are constantly losing and gaining new members without any real sense of consistency. Not to say that this didn't happen before. But it used to be a much bigger deal when a guitarist or drummer left a band because the fear that that bands sound would change.
See Steely Dan.